if there is one thing we definitely inherited from the 20th century, then it is Democracy.
The ingredients are a general right to vote, equality of rights independent of religion, gender or race, freedom of speech and a free press.
The right of free gathering and demonstration. An independent judicial system and courts.
Who can be above the law? This question was triggered by a news article in my morning paper.
-QUOTE- The municipality of MolenIanden [in the Netherlands] has introduced a curse ban. That prohibition, it was soon noted, is contrary to the Constitution and in particular to freedom of speech.
Nevertheless, the SGP majority leader defended the ban: "For Christians, the Ten Commandments rise above the Constitution." That statement raised a lot of eyebrows. -END QUOTE-
For your information, the SGP is an ultra-orthodox protestant political party at the local and national level, 3 seats in a Parliament of 150 seats.
This unconstitutional attitude is not a prerogative of orthodox Christians. What has priority, the faith or the Constitution,
is questioned seriously among Muslims, but not specifically in the Netherlands, in Islamic countries themselves even more.
But it is not just a theological matter. It applies to any ideology. Yesterday a neo-nazi tried to create a massacre in a synagogue.
He failed....couldn't open the door. Nevertheless he shot two people in the street. His ideology places him above the laws of our democracy in his opinion.
Another example is the American presidency. It is said that the person who is in office cannot be indicted or even investigated.
He can shoot a person in 5th Avenue and get away with it. At least that is more or less the story I learn from the US News programs. Do we have to believe that this person is above the law?
This whole idea, that someone can be above the law is of course a direct attack on the basic principles of secular democracy. It makes us as commoners powerless against such a person.
Let's look at the theological aspects first. According to the SGP-man we primarily should obey the Ten Commandments. Nr. 3 is "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain."
Obedience to this commandment should transcend any secular democratic law. But we have a problem here.
You may assume that Paul knew the Ten commandments. In Romans, 13 : 1 he says this:
-QUOTE- Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment,
and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. -END QUOTE
It seems the SGP-man had forgotten to listen to Paul, Romans: 13 . 1.
When we look at the secular situation, the US presidency, we have no bible or any other holy book to turn too.
However, what I have learned in the past few years from all the news of the US is, that there is one leading principle in US society: THE LAW.
Whatever you do, it must be legal. If not, they'll get you, but today not if you're the president, some argue.
My question is, why can't you put the person in jail who occupies the presidency? There is another person, a vice-president, who takes over and it is business as usual.
Is the underlying metaphysics here perhaps also based on Paul Romans 13? Does the incumbent president look at himself
as appointed by God, where the name of this god might be Trump by accident?
The main non partisan question to the people of the US in my opinion is: What are you really worshiping...? An idol or THE LAW?
It is almost a biblical situation. When Moses was fetching the Ten Commandments on the mountain, the people began to worship an idol.
And when he came down from the mountain, the people were faced with the choice: your idol or THE LAW....we'll get the answer in November 2020.
Thank you for your attention....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Peter Watson: A Terrible Beauty (2000)
Peter Watson: A Terrible Beauty (2000)
Dutch Newspaper "TROUW", October 10,2019
The Discussion
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): The U.S. Justice Department has a decades-old policy that a sitting president cannot be indicted, indicating that criminal charges against Trump would be unlikely, according to legal experts.
[13:20] herman Bergson: By the way....
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): after he leaves office whenever
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): HE can be
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so THAT is probably why Trump wanted to be a president I guess, to be able to cause a global mess (including now Syria/Turkey conflict) and get away with it
[13:21] CB Axel: Which is why he fears impeachment.
[13:21] herman Bergson: That is what puzzles me....
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): us too
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:21] herman Bergson: is a depatmental policy also a law?
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): seems crazy
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree Gemma
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no one has the power to fight the policy
[13:21] Anuska (anuska.loon) is offline.
[13:22] CB Axel: What departmental policy?
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trump seems to think he is a god for sure and he is SOOOOOO smart and wise!
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Justice
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:22] herman Bergson: T has refered to himself as "The Chosen One"
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (sighs)
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and of infinite wisdom
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:22] herman Bergson: with great and unmatched wisdom :-)
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): anazing
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): an tonight he willl be worshiped again
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in a rally
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like hist latest one now (ALL IS TERRORISTS HAVE BEEN WIPED OUT 100%)
[13:23] herman Bergson: But the issue here is....how can someone be above the law in our democracy?
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): NO THEY HAVE NOT
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is an old one
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he said that months ago
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Herman
[13:24] CB Axel: He's still saying ISIS has been defeated.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if Trump is above the law we have a BIG problem
[13:24] herman Bergson: The rally was canceled, I heard...Friday will be the day
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): The NY states attorney has loads of stuff to get him after he s out of office
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: oh??
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes CB, I was shocked
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh missed that
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he want to open pandoras box and let evil out again over the world it seems
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): poor Kurds
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes :(
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): will be disaster
[13:25] CB Axel: What rally? The one in Minneapolis?
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and all those relatives of the isis that are in camps
[13:25] herman Bergson: He hadn't hardly put down the phone or the Turks attacked
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i thought he was going
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:25] CB Axel: Yep
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ad then had the nerve to say well they did not help us at Normandy
[13:25] herman Bergson: Don't know where the rally is /was planned
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is almost too much
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: he is insane!
[13:26] CB Axel: He didn't help us at Normandy, either.
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Erdogan wants to send more than 3 million people to Europe
[13:26] CB Axel: He hasn't helped in any war.
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well he is out of control
[13:26] herman Bergson: Oh yes....the Normandy argument....how crazy can you be
[13:26] CB Axel: President Bone Spurs
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, Trump belongs in an insane asylum, not the white house
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): belong
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he does not know how ridiculous he sounds to people with brains that are working
[13:27] herman Bergson: But let's stop about T.
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems not
[13:27] CB Axel: Anyway, he's gotten away with being a liar, a cheat, and a bigot his whole life. No wonder he thinks he's above the law.
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:27] CB Axel: OK. Good. I'll be glad to say bad things about Christians, too.
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but the answer to that is no one is above the law
[13:27] herman Bergson: The question is what it means when people say that they don't have to comply with the law
[13:28] CB Axel: Their law is not my law.
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when he stands there boasting himself with that horrible F*CK U ALL IM BETTER THEN U smile spewing out more crap out of his mouth then the biggest sewage pipe in US
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are radicals
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): iin some manner
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): far left or far right
[13:28] herman Bergson: Democracy is based on acceptance....
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and truly believe what they believe
[13:28] CB Axel: If they don't want to comply with the laws of their country maybe they *should* go back to where they came from.
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like religions
[13:28] herman Bergson: accepting the ideas of a majority
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:29] CB Axel: Christians believe they came from heaven. Fine. They should go back there.
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they will cb
[13:29] CB Axel: Except there is no heaven.
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): at the end :)
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but they don't believe that so
[13:29] herman Bergson: that people think they are above the law is often related to another realm of knowledge they seem to have which is superior to that of the general people
[13:29] CB Axel: But I'll be glad if they go and try to get back there.
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lots of superior people around
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Space X could help them get there
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the KKK was superior
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes ...and you can't argue with them.....though democracy is the exchange of arguments
[13:31] herman Bergson: As we have seen is a democracy very vulnerable regarding these people
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:32] herman Bergson: The only thing we can do is to defend us against such radicals
[13:32] Darks Adria is online.
[13:32] herman Bergson: or try to make them change their mind
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that is hard to do Herman
[13:33] CB Axel: Or, when they break the law arrest them.
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is
[13:33] herman Bergson: I know Beertje....but I had to offer it as an option :-)
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but some actually have done it
[13:33] herman Bergson: it IS possible
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ye
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how?
[13:33] herman Bergson: THE weapon: EDUCATION
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is so true
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they think they know it all
[13:34] herman Bergson: it even can prevent such ideas of superiority
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they are just brainwashed and they forgot to run the rice sycke so head is full of suds still
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): rinse
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): asdjaklfjalfjalfjasadad and my keyboard is brainwashed too it seems!
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill run high pressure washer on it later
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:35] herman Bergson: but when a person can be brainwashed he also can be brainwashed in the opposite direction, I'd say
[13:35] CB Axel: You're going to waterboard your keyboard?
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it cant type
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it does happen
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:36] herman Bergson: SO there is hope.....
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (moves computer closer to me)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa hopefully everything might sore out in some way
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): education has to start with children
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): before armageddon comes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Besides, at least in our culture these superiority believers are a small minority
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this is like re education
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:37] CB Axel: It's hard to educate the children of those people. They tend to be home schooled.
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by their already brainwashed parents
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cycle continues
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes...we have salafist weekend schools for children...
[13:38] CB Axel: I'd love to see a study on how well religious fundamentalists who were home school manage as adults.
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sadly enough
[13:38] CB Axel: Can they get and keep jobs.
[13:38] herman Bergson: there the kids learn not to become friends with a a non believer
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have seen some former believers from the radical right who now spend their time trying to unbrainwash other members
[13:39] CB Axel: Or do they have to stay within their own little communities?
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they would probably try blow up any workplace they got into
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): changed teir lives completlely
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have seen several interviewed on tv
[13:40] CB Axel: Yes, Gemma. I was just listening to the story of a woman who grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church and then left it.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and we know some kkk people who reformed their live
[13:40] CB Axel: I heard her do a TED Talk, too.
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:40] CB Axel: She's written a book.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if you can "restore" them to a correct state its a good thing indeed
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a correct and stable mindset
[13:40] CB Axel: There's an ex-neo-nazi who wrote a book, too.
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Senator Byrd was always criticized because of his kkk membership
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but he certainly changed and worked hard on civil rights issues
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for years!!!!!!!
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long he realizes that what KKK does is wrong its ok
[13:42] herman Bergson: You have to believe in the possibility of change....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:42] herman Bergson: And it is possible....you can change your mind
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:43] herman Bergson: I think this is a nice moment to conclude our discussion and cherish the hope we have found today ^_^
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh good
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:43] CB Axel: But you can't change them if they grow up their whole lives feeling that they can do whatever they want to without consequence.
[13:43] CB Axel: That sounds like a good idea, Herman.
[13:44] CB Axel: Have a nice weekend, everyone. I'll see you Tuesday. :)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok time to go back to my bible I think then which is (for now) understanding Javascript from ground up
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I can never grasp all these frameworks otherwise I think
[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all again.....Class dismissed
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time all
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well before I do that, a little party
[13:44] herman Bergson: Time for Halloween and fishing I guess :-)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu around
[13:44] herman Bergson: Be well Bejiita
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