The situation becomes clearer and clearer. The masses want their freedom and want to participate in how and by whom they are governed.
The French Revolution was an attempt of the people to rule themselves which experiment ended in bloodshed and Napoleonic despotism.
Time and again the claim was that democracy was the only way to guarantee freedom, but more and more these two concepts were unlinked in the debates.
The leading trend among the leading classes was in the period 1800 - 1848 freedom OK, democracy (universal right to vote for everyone) NO.
In this debate, as we already have seen, emerged the concept of civil freedom, the idea that the government should as minimal as possible interfere with the life of the individual citizen.
But then came the year 1848. The Revolutionary Year of 1848 concerns a series of European uprisings that were supposed to make possible a liberal system, a liberal constitution or the expulsion of foreign rulers.
It happened in all kinds of ways in many European countries, Germany, France, Poland, Hungary, Austria, even in Sweden were riots, where people demanded general voting rights.
The movement was short-lived and many enforced measures were later reversed by the aristocratic and conservative elite.
Nevertheless, the revolts exerted a major influence on the period that followed. Henceforth the rulers had to more or less take into account the liberal and nationalistic feelings of the increasingly influential bourgeoisie.
In 1853 when everything was under control again of the ruling elites and upper-class, Francis Lieber published "On Civil Liberty and Self-government"
It is a nice blueprint of how politics will deal with freedom eventually. If freedom and democracy are not necessarily synonymous, then what was freedom?
Instead of answering this question directly, Lieber began with a long digression on the history of freedom. In particular, he wanted to make clear that the definition of freedom had changed substantially since ancient times.
"What the ancients understood by liberty," he wrote, "differed essentially from what we modern citizens call civil liberty."
For the ancients, freedom was based "on the degree of participation in government." As a result, they regarded freedom as something that could only be achieved in and through the state.
Modern citizens, however, understood freedom completely differently, in a way that was almost the opposite of the ancient way of thinking.
Modern people equated freedom with "the protection of the individual and the undisturbed action of society in its smaller and larger circles."
Contrary to the ancients, therefore, modern citizens believed that freedom could not be achieved through the state but by excluding the state from the lives of individuals as much as possible.
An explanation for the transition from ancient to modern freedom has been attributed to social changes and in particular to the rise of the commercial society with its individualistic character.
Another explanation, however, pointed to a cultural transformation: the rise of Christianity. By assigning a priceless individual value to each person,
Christian teaching had dealt a major blow to the tendency of the ancients to place the state above the individual. This kind of reasoning laid the foundation for our current political situation.
This begins to raise the question what is the relationship between the government and the individual citizen, too.
What means democracy if it doesn't mean political freedom, that is, not being the slave of a ruler or ruling class?
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
The Discussion
[13:13] oola Neruda: I was in a two hour lecture this morning that explained the way Stalin and Lenin brought "freedom" to Russsia...
[13:14] herman Bergson: good luck...:-)
[13:14] oola Neruda: they made it sound like it was very good for them
[13:14] herman Bergson: some million kills under Stalin
[13:14] oola Neruda: nods
[13:14] oola Neruda: yes
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:15] herman Bergson: But the issue at hand is something different today...
[13:15] oola Neruda: "it was for their own good... and their own fault"
[13:15] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Hello Andrew:-)
[13:15] herman Bergson: always, oola
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): stalin and lenin = freedom SSSSSS
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): stalin and lenin != freedom!
[13:15] AndrewEagle01: Hello Apfelbaum
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats for sure
[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry Anrew i didn;t see you
[13:16] oola Neruda: they had great PR
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, its same as hitler used, getting the people with him
[13:16] herman Bergson: As I said... the issue at hand is something different today
[13:16] oola Neruda: sorry
[13:17] AndrewEagle01: Since the dawn of time, the elites have enslaved the rest of the population
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the difference herman?
[13:17] herman Bergson: First thing to observe is that the concept of freedom is now closely related to the individual and how is free to do what he wants within the limits of the law...
[13:17] herman Bergson: civil freedom
[13:17] AndrewEagle01: it was called pharaoh, emperor, king, president .. but the principle is still the same
[13:18] herman Bergson: As I said...the concept of civil freedom had gotten a strong position in the political debate...
[13:18] herman Bergson: the other debate is...who is ruling?
[13:19] herman Bergson: It was no longer connected to who is free
[13:19] herman Bergson: The middle of the road was voting rights....
[13:19] herman Bergson: which gave it a feel of democracy...
[13:20] herman Bergson: in the sense that the people were ruling....
[13:20] herman Bergson: however....the voting rights were limited mainly to the white, male educated elite of a country...
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yet...you had a parliament and a government....
[13:21] herman Bergson: that was the situation in 1848, when all revolutions all over Europe erupted...
[13:21] herman Bergson: The masses wanted a voice...
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:22] herman Bergson: March 18-19 in Sweden...big demonstrations...the army got in and 30 people killed and the "rebellion" was surpressed
[13:22] herman Bergson: Happened all over Europe...but it scared the hell out of the elites...
[13:23] herman Bergson: so...
[13:23] herman Bergson: what means freedom?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Peoples rule..?
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess
[13:23] herman Bergson: My goodenss no...
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or idk
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but freedom to decide your life
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what u want
[13:24] herman Bergson: Rememeber that American fellow I mentioned two lectures ago...anno 2022!
[13:24] herman Bergson: He said...Democracy is rule of the mob
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not being trampled down upon by an elite ruler class
[13:24] AndrewEagle01: free will
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sss
[13:24] herman Bergson: Just imagine...2022
[13:24] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ok
[13:24] herman Bergson: and the SAME arguments as in 1900 against democracy
[13:25] herman Bergson: so...from 1848 on we are going to witness the fight of the mob to get voting rights
[13:26] herman Bergson: and here I mean "MOB" in a positive sense
[13:26] herman Bergson: I mean...EVERY CITIZEN....
[13:26] herman Bergson: in Europe this is anno 2022 the case
[13:26] herman Bergson: in the US it is not
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he meant that in a positive way?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or
[13:27] herman Bergson: what do you mean Bejiita?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i said u meant in a positive sense but did that US dude meant it in a positive way too?
[13:28] herman Bergson: no He didnt...
[13:28] herman Bergson: He did it in the reactionary way...
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed the word mob to me don't mean anything positive, however it refers to everyone indeed or a lot of people
[13:28] herman Bergson: Dictatorship of the Majority he meant....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:29] herman Bergson: meaning the majority, the mob, is a dumb mass
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well lets prove him wrong
[13:29] AndrewEagle01: Democracy ? Do you think there are healthy ones in the world?
[13:29] herman Bergson: in other words...the country has to be governed by wise people, not the mob
[13:30] herman Bergson: All these ideas still exist in the political thinking of today
[13:30] herman Bergson: In that sense....
[13:30] AndrewEagle01: wise people *good idea*
[13:30] herman Bergson: America today is the greatest experiment and test of democracy possible
[13:31] herman Bergson: It has to show it that it has democratic balls
[13:31] oola Neruda: a big strength of Lenin and Stalin was incredibly good propaganda/ sounded a lot better than it was
[13:31] oola Neruda: great PR
[13:31] AndrewEagle01: America ? where Trump was elected thanks to his influence and his money? :)
[13:31] herman Bergson: No no Andrew.....
[13:32] herman Bergson: I mean....
[13:32] herman Bergson: In the US a president tempted a coup d'etat
[13:32] herman Bergson: and overrule legitimate and fair elections
[13:32] herman Bergson: He failed....
[13:32] AndrewEagle01: oh ok
[13:32] herman Bergson: the prove of his intentions is piling up....
[13:33] herman Bergson: Now
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed he showed his true nature now
[13:33] oola Neruda: and proof of help by Putin
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): back then
[13:33] herman Bergson: the BIG CHALANGE for the American democratic system is....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now he goes on wailing about how he was cheated, that the election was rigged and how he should have win
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still
[13:33] herman Bergson: does it have the ballsand guts to indict this Trump individual and jail him
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): WAAAH WWAAAAHH!
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he refuses to let it go
[13:34] herman Bergson: THAT is the American Dream put to its ultimate test
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:34] AndrewEagle01: Bejiita : Nods when he himself had won in troubled circumstances
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): democracy threatened by a gigant baby and his followers
[13:34] herman Bergson: It is completely in sync with our present project....
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is Putin stil helping him?
[13:35] oola Neruda: hard to prove but they are uncovering past help
[13:35] herman Bergson: I don't think so Beertje...isn't important anymore
[13:36] herman Bergson: That T committed a crime...a felony is in fact a proven fact....
[13:36] herman Bergson: But the Americans are so double....
[13:37] herman Bergson: on the one hand they say...when out of presidency you are just a general citizen and treated like that
[13:37] herman Bergson: and on the other hand they say...oh dear ,,,oh dear...indicting a former PRESIDENT...oh dear..never happened before in history...should we really do that?
[13:37] herman Bergson: morons they are...:-)
[13:38] oola Neruda: Adam Shiff is working on it
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he acts like he is still a president
[13:38] AndrewEagle01: Nods
[13:38] herman Bergson: of course they should if they want to save their political system and integrity
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ssssssss
[13:39] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...every time is see that...soooooo pathetique
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said he refuses to let it go like a baby screaming for candy in a store
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): WAAAAAH WAAAAAH
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when he dont get any
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sneue man
[13:39] AndrewEagle01: To return to the subject of freedom :)
[13:39] herman Bergson: So ..within the context ogf our project
[13:40] herman Bergson: we have arrived at an interesting point
[13:41] herman Bergson: there is freedom....an issue....there is democracy...an issue and how to connect these two....there are voting rights...
[13:41] herman Bergson: The elite was scared like hell of the mob getting the right to rule....
[13:41] oola Neruda: and are messing it up as fast as they can
[13:42] herman Bergson: onn the other hand the "mob" was sick of being abused by the elite for profit...
[13:42] oola Neruda: some are still delusional
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:42] herman Bergson: In a distance you already may hear the name....Karl Marx.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: Lenin....
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Stalin
[13:43] herman Bergson: October revolution
[13:43] herman Bergson: no..not Stalin Bejiita thta was later
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but both were evil dudes
[13:43] herman Bergson: So that is the dirction we are heading at the moment :-)
[13:43] oola Neruda: YES
[13:44] AndrewEagle01: The link between freedom and democracy can be citizenship, common sense, responsibility
[13:44] herman Bergson: So..just look at your own country at this moment....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in other words, what is the future of democracy with so many dark forces threatening it at the moment?
[13:44] AndrewEagle01: Like article 4 of human rights
[13:44] herman Bergson: ow voting rights are secured...
[13:44] AndrewEagle01: Article 4. Freedom consists in being able to do all that does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits other than those which assure the other members of society the enjoyment of these same rights. . These limits can only be determined by law.
[13:44] herman Bergson: what the influence of the parliament is on government.....
[13:44] oola Neruda: gerrymandering is taking care of that
[13:45] herman Bergson: Right Andrew...nice civil freedom as developed in the 1800s
[13:46] herman Bergson: But just for fun......
[13:46] theo Velde is online.
[13:46] herman Bergson: you quite "the exercise of the natural rights of each man"
[13:46] herman Bergson: one...does man also mean WOMAN
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what about woman?
[13:47] herman Bergson: two....does natural right also mean the control over your own body (Roe v Wade)???
[13:47] oola Neruda: not any more I fear
[13:47] AndrewEagle01: laughs
[13:47] oola Neruda: and they also want to ban contraceptives now
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and now there is the discussion about abortion
[13:48] herman Bergson: who are the deplorables here...
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): man discus about woman again
[13:48] herman Bergson: disgusting Beertje....
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): abortion?
[13:49] herman Bergson: It takes a DICK to cause pregnancy...Where is the laws that control that dick?
[13:49] oola Neruda: babbed'
[13:49] oola Neruda: they don't want to allow contraception
[13:49] oola Neruda: either
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: snap snap
[13:49] herman Bergson: No..it is disgusting men think to have the right to decide about female issues
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): perhaps a small guillotine will do the job
[13:50] herman Bergson: Leave it to the women....
[13:50] oola Neruda: YAYYY!!!!
[13:50] AndrewEagle01: Does human right exist for those who are inside wombs?
[13:50] herman Bergson: What thef%ck know men how difficult it is for a woman do make such a decision.....
[13:50] oola Neruda: that is the real question Andrew
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:50] oola Neruda: you nailed it
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's the most difficult decision a woman can make
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Andrew...human rights apply to the organism the very moment it is able to survive outside a womb
[13:52] herman Bergson: before that it is a growing organism
[13:52] AndrewEagle01: The issue is complicated, a woman with all means of contraception must be responsible.
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what a bout rape?
[13:52] herman Bergson: How complicated is that...
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and a man is not responsable?
[13:52] AndrewEagle01: The wife is not responsible for the rape
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope!
[13:53] herman Bergson: You mean Anrew, that because a woman is responsible for contraception and she gets pregant it is her fault???
[13:53] oola Neruda: to be real.... there are many men who are drunks or ignorant or many other things... who beat their wives..... and worse... been there ... witnessed that... women do not always have control of these things
[13:53] AndrewEagle01: Yes, more men assumed their responsibility instead of fleeing, there would be fewer aborted children
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed I've heard things even in court "but you should maybe not have dressed like that, that sexy ect"
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:54] herman Bergson: But then Andrew....
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like its her fault she got raped cause she looked too sexy
[13:54] oola Neruda: heard of child molestation?
[13:54] herman Bergson: isnt it the fault of the man because he was to lame or unwilling to use a condom?
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders even more)
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:55] AndrewEagle01: Having unprotected sex leads to having children. Women need to be aware
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and MAN
[13:55] herman Bergson: And the men????
[13:55] herman Bergson: Dont they?
[13:55] herman Bergson: isnt it SHARED responsibility?
[13:55] oola Neruda: again.... there are 12 year olds who get pregnant
[13:55] oola Neruda: who have no idea what is going on
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: don't want to believe that contraceptives will be abolished...... all blabla
[13:56] oola Neruda: they are trying to do just that
[13:56] AndrewEagle01: Unconsciousness and ignorance are the sights of perdition
[13:56] herman Bergson: oola...that is even to sick to add to the discussion...such situations
[13:56] herman Bergson: That people just ignore these things
[13:56] herman Bergson: so sick
[13:56] oola Neruda whispers: S
[13:56] oola Neruda: ICK
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): want us to wear a burka Andrew?
[13:57] herman Bergson: So, Anrew...abortion is a good measure in such situations
[13:57] AndrewEagle01: of course not
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): because of the men who can't control themselves?
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): forcing yourself onto someone is never ok
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its awful
[13:58] AndrewEagle01: There is no harm in remembering that a human being must be responsible above all else (Woman or man)
[13:58] herman Bergson: Anyway...enough with this never ending story for today...
[13:59] AndrewEagle01: Prevention is better than cure
[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: of course i'm pro-abortion.....rape...who wants a kid with an ass like that? Genes are transferred.
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Bergie
[13:59] herman Bergson: It is not a matter of being pro or contra....
[14:00] oola Neruda: knew a couple... both were very... um... retarded... they were required to get sterilized...
[14:00] herman Bergson: It is about the natural right of a human being,,,,A WOMAN...in this cae to decide over her own body
[14:00] AndrewEagle01: Apfelbaum : Indeed, there are cases where abortion is unavoidable
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Baas in eigen buik
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Rapist, 5 years imprisonment. then the gentlemen think about it.
[14:00] oola Neruda: I know churches that PREACH, LOUDLY.... that a woman MUST OBEY HER HUSBAND... NO MATTER WHAT
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: 10 years!
[14:00] herman Bergson: Who has the right to tell HER what right she has?
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders at oolas remark)
[14:01] herman Bergson: That is this whole project about...FREEDOM
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i told my husband before marriage that I would never obey him....
[14:01] herman Bergson: who sets the limits to individual freedom and based on what rights does he do that?
[14:02] herman Bergson: Mistake Beertje....
[14:02] herman Bergson: at the altar you say YES I DO...lol
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol Herman
[14:02] AndrewEagle01: Common sense rules everything
[14:02] herman Bergson: so that was a big lie?
[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they didn't ask the question
[14:03] herman Bergson: altar is a metaphor Beertje
[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: even at my niece's wedding... the priest told my niece that she must submit her to her husband. the whole church laughed. it was wonderful!!
[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ... 6 years ago
[14:03] herman Bergson: lol..they simple said...would you please be so kind to sign here? :-)
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[14:03] herman Bergson: and you obeyed
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no
[14:04] herman Bergson: you didnt sign?
[14:04] herman Bergson: lol
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes i did..but not to obey as a bride
[14:04] herman Bergson: Will you marry me Beertje ...lol
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[14:04] AndrewEagle01: Beertje : Laughs
[14:05] herman Bergson: OK...we'll have a party in the near future..:-)
[14:05] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....and keep your eyes open on your democracy
[14:05] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....^_^
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and don't obey to anyone
[14:05] AndrewEagle01: It's a very interesting discussion.
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[14:06] herman Bergson: wrong again Beertje...you obey yourself at least I hope :-))
[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): too difficult now
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:06] AndrewEagle01: Thanks for the lecture Herman
[14:06] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you free herman and free class
[14:06] herman Bergson: My pleasure Andrew
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