To begin with the end, she died young, 38. If that had not happened maybe the emancipation wouldnt have lost its momentum, someone said. This is an interesting remark, as it demonstrates a way of looking at history.
Like we do in these lectures, we are focused on individual philosophers and we are so used to the idea, that history is changed by individual persons, by their doings and influence especifically. And with the person of Mary Wollstonecraft this is an intriguing question to ask.
So her early death was a setback for the emancipation process? Or can we look at it from a different angle. Take Newton, we all claim that he set the beacons for natural physics. In a way he did, undeniably, but wastn it thus, that the intellectual and social conditions in society "produced" him, so to speak?
A lot of history books look only at the individuals, that are remembered historically and we dance along here in our philosophy class. But we should keep an open eye and mind for the social ,economical and political developments of the times involved as well.
Then you can ask the question: why did empiricism got a chance to emerge around1660? Because a single person, named John Locke, wrote a book about it, that was published or later that Hume continued in Locke's footsteps? Or can there be given another explanation, more in the way, that the times were thus, that these ideas were widely accepted by intellectuals, educators, writers, politicians?
It can lead to more questions: why were the conditions right for such ideas? What was it that made the minds susceptible for that? And then philosophy becomes embrassed by history, by a wider context. Also the philosophers we are discussing here lived in a real and historic world.
And for Mary Wollstonecraft it was even more so. She was 30 when in France the Revolution took place. Extreme political developments, never seen before. She went to France to be witness of this grand event. And it was in line with her personal convictions regarding freedom and equality.
The conservative reaction of Edmund Burke on the French Revolution and the developments n the Continent inspired her to her most famous book "A Vindication of the Rights of Woman" in 1792. It was a direct response to Jean-Jacques Rousseau's educational work Emile, which proposed that a girl's education should aim at making her useful to and supportive of a rational man.Here are the titles of the chapters:
CHAP. I. The rights and involved duties of mankind considered
CHAP. II. The prevailing opinion of a sexual character discussed
CHAP. III. The same subject continued
CHAP. IV. Observations on the state of degradation to which woman is reduced by various causes
CHAP. V. Animadversions on some of the writers who have rendered women objects of pity, bordering on contempt
CHAP. VI. The effect which an early association of ideas has upon the character
CHAP. VII. Modesty.—Comprehensively considered, and not as a sexual virtue
CHAP. VIII. Morality undermined by sexual notions of the importance of a good reputation
CHAP. IX. Of the pernicious effects which arise from the unnatural distinctions established in society
CHAP. X. Parental affection
CHAP. XI. Duty to parents
CHAP. XII. On national education
CHAP. XIII. Some instances of the folly which the ignorance of women generates; with concluding reflections on the moral improvement that a revolution in female manners may naturally be expected to produce
Take your time to read them. I hadnt time to read the book myself yet, but you can find it at http://www.bartleby.com/144/
Philosophically she believed in the ratio, reason. And reason dictated equality between man and woman, the right to proper eduction also for women. She set the beacons, but it took almost 200 years, to get things moving. And that brings us back to our question regarding the nature of history and the way we look at it.
The Discussion
[13:23] Herman Bergson: So far on Mary Wollstonecraft
[13:23] AristotleVon Doobie: Better late than never.
[13:24] Siena Masala: most interesting however emancipation (in the second phase really got going in the 60s
[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: as far as the advancement of women
[13:24] Riven Flare: true
[13:24] Cailleach Shan: lol Chapter 13 is a discussion in itself.
[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: yes the sexual revolution
[13:24] Herman Bergson: Miss Pakhurst was there too about 1918...
[13:24] Herman Bergson: The right to vote for women
[13:25] Herman Bergson: to become member of Parlement....first woman in the Netherlands in 1918
[13:25] Cailleach Shan: Yay! Let's hear it for New Zealand the first country to give women the vote.
[13:25] Siena Masala: that was the first phase
[13:25] Riven Flare: lol voteing is one thing useing it was another
[13:25] Herman Bergson: Aletha jacobs...first female physician in the netherlands..same period
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: The courage and audacity of Mary Wollstonecraft is nothing short of amazing for her time
[13:26] Siena Masala: there were individual lights, however the main movement began post 1968
[13:26] Herman Bergson: Yes it was Aristotle, but she wasnt the only one..
[[13:26] Herman Bergson: True Siena
[13:26] AristotleVon Doobie: but the first to beat the drums are very brave indeed
[13:27] Herman Bergson: but it brings me to my historical question.....why only in 1968?
[13:27] Riven Flare: yes those first women had a lot more hardships than the women did later
[13:27] arabella Ella: even today women are considered brave when they go against the grain, just see what a few females are in high positions world wide
[13:27] Cailleach Shan: Herman what was it in the enviroinment of the time that enabled this to happen
[13:27] Laila Schuman: i think i mentioned my view of Schopenhaur when he horrified me with his view on women... it was beyond inexcusable
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: 1968 was much much more...almost like a BC/AD year
[13:28] Herman Bergson: That is what I am wondering about myself Cailleach....what made it possible...?
[13:28] Cailleach Shan: Was it just that the 18th Century was a time of radical change politically.
[13:28] arabella Ella: 1968 was the beginning of the new generation following the generation of the second world war
[13:29] Siena Masala: this is true Arabella
[13:29] Riven Flare: well with the second war so many women had been in the lead role bc the men were gone.. they did not wish to leave it
[13:29] arabella Ella: yes and during WW2 women started taking on jobs for the first time they were economically productive and independent to some extent
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: yes Riven and a woman did not have to be second class anymore, and man could not deny her contribution
[13:30] Siena Masala: coupled with the face that so many men had been killed in the 1st and 2nd ww that it was necessary for woman to take their places
[13:30] Riven Flare: yes... we wanted to stand our ground and defend it just like men
[13:30] arabella Ella: most women in the 60s 70s and 80s were in positions of inferiority mainly due to lack of economic independence and also due to their having the role of caring for 4, 5 or 6 or more kids
[13:31] Siena Masala: woman were thrown back on their own resouces because they did not have the men to provide for them
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: and the children of this generation learned somethng different in ther nurturing
[13:31] Herman Bergson: indeed arabella..
[13:31] Laila Schuman: when were women allowed better access to education... that could be an influence too
[13:31] Herman Bergson: After WWII there was a relapse into traditional roles....men had to work and rebuild the economy and women had to produce kids and care for them
[13:32] Siena Masala: so you are saying (arabelle) that the PILL was a catalist for change in the social structure and organised society
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: well they could not vote here in the US until the 20th century
[13:32] arabella Ella: not just education as there were jobs in manufacturing ... but birth control was another major issue
[13:32] Laila Schuman: yes arabella
[13:32] Siena Masala: women set free with choice
[13:32] Riven Flare: when the men came back though to take back their places women decided to not go easy learning that yes they could have their say
[13:32] Herman Bergson: yes indeed...
[13:33] arabella Ella: yes Siena three factors mainly ... economic independence, education and birth control (not necc the pill as that is as we know not the only means)
[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: the pill most certainly had its empowering effect, man could not keep a woman barefoot and pregnant if the woman chose differently
[13:33] Siena Masala: manufacturing became accessible to woman as it became robotised and easier for woman to use )(strength wise)
[13:33] arabella Ella: but we are still way behind in my opinion where equality is concerned
[13:34] Riven Flare: we are and we aren't.. would you really want to be on the front lines in war?
[13:34] Laila Schuman: schopenhaur indicated that a woman could not reason... think as well as a man... he basically said her mind is physically incapable of learning much
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: if a man should go to war then a woman must also
[13:34] arabella Ella: take teaching for example, why is it that the majority of teachers in most countries are female?
[13:34] Herman Bergson: yes we are..the average wage of a woman in the Netherlands is still 18% less than that of a man
[13:34] Cailleach Shan: Yes Arabella. you only have to look at the way the media in the States treats Hillalry Clinton and almost ignore Obama
[13:34] Siena Masala: exactly - mainly because of capture - rather than the modern methods of war
[13:35] arabella Ella: Ari in Israel females must do military service in the same way as males
[13:35] Zenobia Vertes is Online
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: yes and that is only fair Arabella
[13:35] Laila Schuman: they treat her as a "bitch"... rather than as a person
[13:35] Riven Flare: war isn't the issue.. I think if the draft were reinstituted all should be bound to it.. but most women don't want to be on the front lines.. and a lot of men i know have fits over it
[13:35] Siena Masala: as a teacher I can say that men are in an unenviable postions dure to the risks they face
[13:35] arabella Ella: excuse me for speaking so emotionally but i have been discriminated against countless times just for being born a female
[13:35] Laila Schuman: me too
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: if the draft were reinstituted then the rich folk would stop the war
[13:36] Cailleach Shan: I think it's time to celebrate difference and empower both male and female.
[13:36] arabella Ella: if females were in positions of political power then perhaps they may be less wars and no need for the draft or for unnecessary killing
[13:37] Riven Flare: lol matriarceil society
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: I agree arabella but I fear that society is attempting to make women like men
[13:37] Riven Flare: would be nice, women don't think war first
[13:37] Herman Bergson: To get back to my historical question about the role of Mary Wollstonecraft....
[13:37] Siena Masala: Cailleneach this is an important point - we are different and that is a pragmatic fact - but only in emotional and physical areas not in brain power
[13:38] arabella Ella: yes Ari and that is a pity cos the difference is there and the difference is beautiful and to be appreciated as well
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: yes I agree
[13:38] Laila Schuman: the industrial revolution changed things dramatically... women were allowed to work in factories
[13:38] Herman Bergson: When you listen to our discussion and all remarks, you see that we paint a historical and social context to understand emancipation..
[13:38] arabella Ella: males and females are complementary in many ways
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: I am sick to death of seeing all these aggressive, butt kinking women in the movies and tv
[13:38] Herman Bergson: We can mention names like Greere...
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: kicking
[13:39] Siena Masala: Mary was a woman ahead of her time - I dont envy her life
[13:39] Riven Flare: no she would have been shunned in that time period
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: yes Siena, I mean the courage it must have took to stand up
[13:39] Siena Masala: ooops she (Greere) has backtracked of late
[13:39] arabella Ella: yes Ari I agree although to some extent you may remember that it was the other way around for countless years when women were treated like s....y slaves
[13:39] Cailleach Shan: Most of the venom against her happened after she had died.
[13:40] Herman Bergson: But it seems that nowadays we see people that come to the the forefront are 'generated' by social circumstances and political/cultural circumstances in our society
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: I know, I know but lets have the tenderness and fairness that is a feminin attribute
[13:40] arabella Ella: Herman did you find anything in Mary's life that might explain her exceptional stance in those days
[13:40] Laila Schuman: what was her status in society... it is one thing for an ordinary person to say something and another for a woman of "status" to say it
[13:40] Siena Masala: that is a good question arabella
[13:40] Cailleach Shan: In my country all the top political power is presently held by women.
[13:40] Herman Bergson: I think there is....
[13:41] Riven Flare: she prob was of 'status' bc then they would have squashed a lower class woman
[13:41] Herman Bergson: As a youngster she had to defend her mother and two sisters agains a violent father...
[13:41] Siena Masala: do you think so Riven?
[13:41] arabella Ella: not just status i don't think that would be enough, she would have to be defended somehow
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: yes she was middle class and did not much like the poor
[13:42] Siena Masala: this would have lead her to question the status quo
[13:42] Riven Flare: yes I do
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: she said that poor girls whould only be educated unitl 9 years old
[13:42] Siena Masala: lower class woman (riven) how so?
[13:42] arabella Ella: she certainly had guts to go against the tide
[13:42] Riven Flare: middle class depending on how well connected her family was would determine if it were able to stop her or not without stepping on someone's toes
[13:43] Mickorod Renard: i heard a statement once that went like: every great man had a great woman behind him,,,meaning women were influential even behind the scenes
[13:43] Riven Flare: exactly what are you asking Siena?
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: Mick, women have always ruled the world.
[13:43] Mickorod Renard: lol
[13:44] Siena Masala: you said that middle class would have been squashed by a lower class woman - this puzzles me - riven
[13:44] Riven Flare: no lower class squashed hun
[13:44] arabella Ella: except for the philosophers Mick many of whom seem to have led rather weird private lives, many without a woman with the exception of Bertrand Russell who had 5 wives
[13:44] Mickorod Renard: wow
[13:45] Herman Bergson: And me.....wont tell you the number tho...^_^
[13:45] Siena Masala: is that a case of optimisme over experience
[13:45] arabella Ella: tell us herman please??
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: well of course Bertrand was either very lucky or insane
[13:45] Mickorod Renard: maybe that is a prerequisite for clear thinking
[13:45] Cailleach Shan: Herman did you have a particular reason for including Mary in the list of 100
[13:45] Riven Flare: a lower class woman if she had a rebellious bone would have been silenced in childhood
[13:45] Siena Masala: i opt for insane
[13:45] arabella Ella: Bertrand was a very colourful character from British upper class society
[13:45] Herman Bergson: I can tell you Aristotle that I am a lucky man....^_^
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: :))
[13:46] Siena Masala: okaaaaaaay herman
[13:46] arabella Ella: hey Herman we need to meet you and to organise that retirement party soon ;)
[13:46] Siena Masala: lol
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: I have been know to be that LOL
[13:46] Siena Masala: varity is the spice (so they say)
[13:46] Siena Masala: lol
[13:46] Herman Bergson: Ok..let's come to a conclusion...
[13:47] Siena Masala: ok
[13:47] arabella Ella: was Mary a product of her times herman?
[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: as long as the spice has brains
[13:47] Herman Bergson: A woman from 1790 makes us think of how some developments can take place in society
[13:47] Herman Bergson: in this case the position of women...
[13:47] Herman Bergson: ________________
[13:47] Herman Bergson:
[13:47] Herman Bergson: ** Silence plz ***
[13:47] Herman Bergson: ________________
[13:47] Laila Schuman: i will again propose that the industrial revolution made things open up
[13:48] Mickorod Renard: was she a great philo or just unusual for her time?
[13:48] Cailleach Shan: I believe that until women are truly valued in our world then
[13:48] Cailleach Shan: we will continue to be out of balance
[13:49] Herman Bergson: Ok Mickorod...I'll include your remark....was she just an individual event or a result of social developments in society..
[13:49] Siena Masala: this is the truest statement cailleach
[13:49] Mickorod Renard: yeh?
[13:50] Herman Bergson: I think that the French revolution was a great inspiration to a lot of people....the rational justification of equality and the historical proof by what was happening in France.
[13:50] Siena Masala: the 1700's saw many changes in society and industry
[13:50] Herman Bergson: But the Revolution died by the hands of Napolean...
[13:50] Siena Masala: I admire the french for their courage in the revolution
[13:50] Herman Bergson: the world became as it used to be...a country with a man in charge..
[13:51] Herman Bergson: Like was the situatin in England and Germany....
[13:51] Siena Masala: hmmmmmm - I think he has had 'bad press'
[13:51] arabella Ella: what do you mean herman?
[13:51] Herman Bergson: The British were scared to death that the same would happen to them...
[13:51] Siena Masala: exactemente
[13:51] arabella Ella: and how come Mary had the opportunity to travel to France in her days, something that even rarely happened up until 50 years ago
[13:52] Siena Masala: how true arabella
[13:52] Mickorod Renard: was josephine a bad influence?
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: her best fiend was ill there I think
[13:52] Herman Bergson: so conservatism flourished and the ideas of mary were ignored and criticized.
[13:52] Siena Masala: only if she washed
[13:52] Herman Bergson: her best friend was the biggest help for that...
[13:53] Herman Bergson: So maybe an explanation for the slow development of emancipation was the return to conservatism in Europe...
[13:53] Siena Masala: there is always a confilict between conservatisim and liberism
[13:53] Herman Bergson: all Europe was afraid for their own Revolution
[13:53] AristotleVon Doobie: men began to be afraid
[13:54] Siena Masala: you mean the elite were afraid
[13:54] Herman Bergson: Yes of course Siena....they had to defend their privileges
[13:54] Siena Masala: as today
[13:55] AristotleVon Doobie: and men have no class with there feelings of superiority to women
[13:55] arabella Ella: but surely you are forgetting the fact that Napoleon was a Republican and went against all the monarchial tendencies of those days like a breath of fresh air for many people
[13:55] Siena Masala: yes arabella
[13:55] Herman Bergson: He wasnt that republican as he crownd himself to emperor
[13:55] Siena Masala: and because of that he has been given demonisation
[13:55] Siena Masala: by the elite
[13:56] AristotleVon Doobie: stiil he was a polititian that reclaimed man's brief freedom from the revolution
[13:56] Siena Masala: who control the press until the internet
[13:56] arabella Ella: i know a lot of people who still speak in favour of Napoleon and his sweeping changes especially where law is concerned ... the codex Napoleon
[13:56] Herman Bergson: Oh sure Arabella....he wasnt all bad....
[13:57] Cailleach Shan: Why are we talking about Napoleon?
[13:57] Siena Masala: history is written by the victors (not an orginal statement I know)
[13:57] Riven Flare: the worst ppl have some good qualities.. sometimes you just have to look harder
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: like the philosophers, we have inherited both good and bad from the politicians
[13:57] Siena Masala: what was napoleons view and approach to woman
[13:58] Siena Masala: were woman free in the french revolution?
[13:58] Cailleach Shan: I'm waiting to see if Hillary becomes President... then we might see a revolution in America!!
[13:58] Riven Flare: lol
[13:58] Riven Flare: I'm all for a fem pres.. but I don't want Hillary
[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: I am afraind Hillary is like the women in the movies I spoke of
[13:59] Siena Masala: yes this is interesting for a country that is supposed to be 21c it is behind 'india' in the political power of woman hahahhah
[13:59] arabella Ella: Ari apparently it is the French female politicians I hear who are the best at retaining their femminity
[13:59] AristotleVon Doobie: I would surely love to vote for a woman
[13:59] AristotleVon Doobie: but I can not vote for a wariior
[14:00] Herman Bergson: Ok...FRIENDS........
[14:00] arabella Ella: hey but we should not vote for gender ... we should vote for the best ideas and policies and politics
[14:00] AristotleVon Doobie: agreed
[14:00] Herman Bergson: I think we are drifting too far from 1790 and its meaning for today now...^_^
[14:00] Riven Flare: lol
[14:00] Mickorod Renard: but i think we are not talking about one woman running a country, what about those others in the gov who help with policies
[14:00] Cailleach Shan: lol
[14:00] arabella Ella: not that i have a vote in the US elections tho ;)
[14:00] Siena Masala: i celebrate my feminiity - but at the same time I want to be effective in the world in more than just family life - woman are so lucky because they can have many different styles of life
[14:01] AristotleVon Doobie: I think it all has connection Herman
[14:01] Cailleach Shan: Yes, Siena.... I celebrate myself as a woman too. Fortunately it has never impeded my choices....
[14:01] Siena Masala: ok herman - do you think that Mary was the beginning of new ideas of womanhood?
[14:01] AristotleVon Doobie: either way I am very fond of Mary Wollestone craft
[14:01] Herman Bergson: I know Aristotle, but I refer to stay closer to the main focus of this class....philosophy
[14:02] arabella Ella: i think there must have been some factors in Mary's live which affected what she did in a tremendous way as even today it is very difficult to go against the grain as she did
[14:02] Herman Bergson: She was called the female Hyena even
[14:02] arabella Ella: as we have seen it is even difficult for Hillary perhaps because she was born female
[14:02] Herman Bergson: in her days
[14:03] Cailleach Shan: She was rather different than most women of her time. Had a lover, loved another woman, had an illigetimate child.
[14:03] AristotleVon Doobie: of course any that breaks from the staus quo will be labeled in a negative light
[14:03] Herman Bergson: Allow me to dismiss the class officially..^_^
[14:03] Siena Masala: gosh a full life
[14:03] Riven Flare grins
[14:03] Cailleach Shan: lol Thanks Herman.
[14:03] Herman Bergson: but feel free to continue the disccussion..^_^
[14:03] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you Herman
[14:04] Mickorod Renard: thank you herman
[14:04] Riven Flare: thank you Herman
[14:04] Siena Masala: thanks herman great class
[14:04] Siena Masala: also to Riven thanks
[14:04] CONNIE Eichel: ty prof
[14:04] arabella Ella: thank you so much once again Herman for a great class!
[14:04] AristotleVon Doobie: and just think if she had had the pill
[14:04] Siena Masala: hahahah
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