395: The Utopia of the Free Market - Gross National Happiness

In a previous lecture I already remarked that many people think, that the free market is an objective process.

Nobody seems to be responsible for the ideology and the Utopia behind it. There is not such a thing like "The Communist Manifesto" (1848).

I have shown you that this is a mistake. "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) by Ayn Rand is the Capitalist Manifesto, the perfect expression of the utopian ideas, on which capitalism and free market thinking is based.

On a UN- conference a few weeks ago Prime Minister Thinley of Buthan, a small state in the Himalayas between India and China, said the following:

" The economic model, that uses the Gross National Product as the standard, that pursues unlimited growth on a planet with limited resources has become absurd. (…) It is the cause of our irresponsible, immoral and self-destructive actions."

For that reason the government in Buthan has stopped assessing the quality of life and general wealth and welfare by the Gross National Product. It now uses the Gross National Happiness.

The assessment of Gross National Happiness (GNH) was designed in an attempt to define an indicator

that measures quality of life or social progress in more holistic and psychological terms than only the economic indicator of Gross National Product (GNP).

Gross National Product (GNP) is the market value of all products and services produced in one year by labour and property supplied by the residents of a country.

Unlike Gross Domestic Product (GDP), now in us by the US, which defines production based on the geographical location of production, GNP allocates production based on ownership.

So, it seems possible to do politics, not obsessed by percentages of economic growth, but by defining a standard of happiness of your inhabitants as leading principle.

And then here we are with our belief in the Free Market as if it were a law of nature. What is really questionable, is,

that the processes of the Free Market are controlled by the homo economicus, who is mainly after his self-interest using rational choices.

There is this peculiar conviction, that the human being is a rational being. Of course, some of our actions are based on rationality, where Rand would say that this means the use of logic only.

But what we call economy, is always embedded in a total of religious and cultural structures. Nowhere you find a stand-alone system of rational economic choices and calculations, which are independent of social relations.

Every economic phenomenon - production, distribution, market, pricing, exchange, etc. - can only be understood within its own context.

Nowhere we find a general, universal and abstract economic logic, which can be applied to all these features alike in different societies.

The currently recognized version of the Seven Capital Sins are usually given as wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.

Our current economic system even stimulates at least two of them in the homo economicus: greed and envy.
-- I also want car and at least bigger than the one of my neighbor. --

This possessive and jealous individualism has become a characteristic of our free market culture, decorated with an "every man for himself" attitude.

Is this a logical consequence of economic relations? What are the basics of economics and , from a historical perspective, has it always (necessarily) been this way? We still have to cover a lot of ground, I'd say.



The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡
[13:19] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have some sympathy for the free market being a law of nature, e.g. consider Auctions.
[13:19] Mick Nerido: There is a consumer confidence index that measures how optomistic or pesimistic people are...
[13:19] herman Bergson: Don't misunderstand me.....
[13:20] herman Bergson: I do not look for a moral judgement on the Free Market...
[13:20] herman Bergson: In a philosophical sense I just want to know what it really IS....
[13:20] herman Bergson: and so far I have shown that it is a situation driven by utopian ideas and expectations
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: what is the motivating force for the market Herman? doesn't envy and greed play an important role?
[13:21] herman Bergson: the free market in NOT self regulating as for instance Greenspan thought
[13:22] Bhelle Alacrity: Could I ask the Professor a question?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy....that is what is at stake here..if you take into account the financial crises
[13:22] herman Bergson: Sure Bhelle
[13:22] Bhelle Alacrity: If you for example want to get a knife sharpened
[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: people seem to confound happiness with richness
[13:22] Bhelle Alacrity: How should the orice for that be set ?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Could you ask your question without using a metaphore Bhelle?
[13:23] Bhelle Alacrity: There must be some mechanism
[13:23] Mick Nerido: Think of the free market as two prize fighters without a refferie!
[13:23] herman Bergson: I dont know what an orice is
[13:24] Bhelle Alacrity: What would it be without a market place
[13:24] herman Bergson: yes mick....
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): price?
[13:24] herman Bergson: Again ...don't misunderstand me...
[13:24] Bhelle Alacrity: For example what did they do in the Soviet Union to set the price for sharpening a knife
[13:24] Bhelle Alacrity: Wonders
[13:24] herman Bergson: I do not judge the phenomenon of the free market as good or bad....
[13:25] herman Bergson: that is completely uninteresting...
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Don't you think that an auction is a good example of things finding their proper value?
[13:25] herman Bergson: Complex question Merlin.....
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hmm
[13:25] herman Bergson: Just be patient with me for a moment....
[13:25] herman Bergson: There are a lot of issues here...
[13:26] herman Bergson: To begin with ...the concept of 'just price'
[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): Value is badly represented at auctions - there is no reference to cost to society
[13:26] herman Bergson: I'll get to that in coming lectures
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): economics is such a complicated thing to understand ...
[13:26] herman Bergson: Then there is the relation between resources and property....
[13:27] herman Bergson: Who owns the water of the sea.....
[13:27] herman Bergson: How can you own a piece of land...?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Then there is the issue of labor...
[13:27] herman Bergson: labor invested in making a product
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that was the native american belief
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Land is a good example there
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): cannot really own the land
[13:28] Mick Nerido: the concept of private property did not always exist...
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Like if you bought all the land of a country would you be its ruler?
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): No
[13:28] Mick Nerido: the king gave it to his supporters
[13:29] herman Bergson: then take the biblical idea that we are just stewards of this earth....
[13:30] herman Bergson: What I want to say is that in a next lecture I'll like to investigate the concept of economics.
[13:30] Bhelle Alacrity: Professor
[13:30] herman Bergson: what are the basic concepts of economics...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Bhelle...go ahead
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh good!!!!!
[13:30] Bhelle Alacrity: I'm sure you'll excuse me when I say that I think I own a piece of land
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:31] Bhelle Alacrity: maybe I'm mistaken?
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nopeyoudo
[13:31] herman Bergson: No...of course you can own land....
[13:31] Bhelle Alacrity: I see
[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Seems a bit like land ownership in SL.
[13:31] Bhelle Alacrity: Confused
[13:31] herman Bergson: it means that you have property rights on it which others have not on that land....
[13:31] Mick Nerido: you own what the government recognizes you own
[13:31] herman Bergson: You can plant there your crop...for instance
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yeah I like that explanation
[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): And leave it to your kids
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): You cant keep the cops out though
[13:32] Mick Nerido: There are also mineral rights on land...
[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I think humans are territorial; as are many other species
[13:32] herman Bergson: John Locke said that you can only own so much land as you can work on....if I am not mistaken...
[13:33] herman Bergson: A cute idea..but relative...
[13:33] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): by hand of with machines?
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes, and perhaps with workers too
[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): Or with capital-- better question
[13:33] herman Bergson: I have seen fields with 14 combiners in a line harvesting the wheat
[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think Locke was flawed there
[13:34] Mick Nerido: you can own only as much land as how much land tax you can afford
[13:34] herman Bergson: taxes is another chapter Mick....
[13:35] Mick Nerido: it means the gov really owns the land!
[13:35] Bhelle Alacrity: Professor?
[13:35] herman Bergson: So plz.....we really need some more time then our 30 to 50 minutes to deal with all the issues you bring up now ^_^
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no i think not
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): We dont have land tax in UK
[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): Or in south africa
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: lucky you!
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): taxes for example will take care of a road so you can get to the land
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have....
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or protection for the land
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or fire fighters
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): etc
[13:36] Bhelle Alacrity: Professor you said that there was no manifesto like the Communist Manifesto
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But, the cost of access is not proportional to the size of the land
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes I did
[13:37] Bhelle Alacrity: I wonder what you think of Hayeks' "Road to Serfdom"
[13:37] Bhelle Alacrity: It seem to have some of the qualities of a manifesto
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes that is one....the Manifesto I mentioned was "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand
[13:37] herman Bergson: a milllion bestseller in the US
[13:38] herman Bergson: I recently read about the book Bhelle....
[13:38] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Were she still alive I suspect Ayn might rewrite some of it.
[13:38] herman Bergson: Hayek is a supporter of the free market
[13:39] herman Bergson: Interesting remark Annie....
[13:39] herman Bergson: yes I would love to have heard her opinion about the current situation
[13:39] herman Bergson: But she died in 1982
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well..tons of issues still to deal with.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: So, you may expect a lot more lectures...
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:40] Mick Nerido: Thank you Professor
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yay.
[13:40] herman Bergson: I thank you for your inspiring discussion...
[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herma
[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for now
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: Thank youu!
[13:41] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: A wonderful Easter for you all!
[13:41] herman Bergson: Tank you Lizzy...
[13:41] herman Bergson: You too..
[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh yes..... May the bunny come with many eggs :)
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you:-)
[13:41] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): It would be interesting for the class to write down their idea of a utopian world and then we could all compare notes
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: yes debbie!
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Please excuse me I have a disco waiting :)
[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Herman, Mick, and girls hehe
[13:42] herman Bergson: laughs...
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok Annie...
[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bye merlin
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thanks again Herman
[13:42] Bhelle Alacrity: Oh dear'
[13:42] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): homework Annie?
[13:42] herman Bergson: My pleasure Annie
[13:43] Bhelle Alacrity: I wish I was still a girl
[13:43] herman Bergson: Your idea is nice Debbie
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): see you next week
[13:43] herman Bergson: but really difficult
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): oh Thank you herman
[13:43] Bhelle Alacrity: Bye everybody
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye belle, lizzy and herman
[13:44] herman Bergson: Most op the time a utopia story is a book of not less than 250 pages ㋡

391: The Utopia of the Free Market - The End of Rand

Take the following two core statements of Ayn Rand's philosophy:

1. Reason, the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses, is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

2. “the actor must always be the beneficiary of his action and that man must act for his own rational self-interest.”

Those, who have attended my project "The Mystery of the Brain" , will conclude immediately, that even from a scientific point of view statement number 1 is old-fashioned and completely out-dated philosophy, even a factual error.

The second statement immediately raises the question: where does this "MUST" come from? What kind of "must" is it? Does it mean "have to" or "ought"?

In both cases we need an reasoning. Is it deduced from the scientific knowledge about the homo sapiens, from evolutionary biology, from neurobiological data?

Rand claims that reality is absolute. What ever it may mean, this reality refutes statement 2 too, because nature offers us dozens of examples of altruistic behavior among animals.

Jorge Moll and Jordan Grafman (2006), neuroscientists at the National Institutes of Health and LABS-D'Or Hospital Network (J.M.) provided the first evidence for the neural bases of altruistic giving in normal healthy volunteers.

When volunteers generously placed the interests of others before their own by making charitable donations, another brain circuit was selectively activated: the subgenual cortex/septal region.

These structures are intimately related to social attachment and bonding in other species. Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain, hard-wired and pleasurable.

That doesn't mean that we are all altruistic saints by nature. It isn't without reason, that Rand so easily can appeal to the idea of selfishness and even can call is a virtue.

Psychological egoism is the thesis that we are always deep down motivated by what we perceive to be in our own self-interest.

Psychological altruism, on the other hand, is the view that sometimes we can have ultimately altruistic motives.

Suppose, for example, that Pam saves Jim from a burning office building. What ultimately motivated her to do this? It would be odd to suggest that it’s ultimately her own benefit that Pam is seeking.

After all, she’s risking her own life in the process. But the psychological egoist holds that Pam’s apparently altruistic act is ultimately motivated by the goal to benefit herself, whether she is aware of this or not.

Pam might have wanted to gain a good feeling from being a hero, or to avoid social reprimand that would follow had she not helped Jim, or something along these lines.

The story of psychological egoism is rather peculiar. Though it is often discussed, it hasn’t been explicitly held by many major figures in the history of philosophy. It is most often attributed to only Thomas Hobbes (1651) and Jeremy Bentham (1781).

Psychological egoism makes a stronger, universal claim that all of our ultimate desires are egoistic, while psychological altruism merely makes the weaker claim that some of our ultimate desires are altruistic.

Thus, the former is a monistic thesis, while the latter is a pluralistic thesis. Consequently, psychological egoism is easier to refute than the opposing view. And neurobiological evidence points in the direction, that behavior is not only controlled by the pleasure centers in the brain.

Ayn Rand gave the world with "Atlas Shrugged" its modern utopia of the free market. It was adopted with open arms by the financial world and the political world started privatization of what had long been services of the government.

So far the results are disastrous. People have become homeless. Taxpayers finance the banks to prevent them from collapsing, which could make thing even worse.

Those in society who do not fit the Randian model of man as the creative, productive and independent individual, that acts only based on reason,

so the sick, the poor, the mentally or physically handicapped, or just the less gifted people, the elderly, are the first victims of the utopia of the free market.

Therefore let me go on showing that this utopia of the free market is a Randian ideology, which is only in the interest of certain groups in our society.

And don't tell me that less government is certainly better and a step forward to a better world. The tremendous economic growth of China is completely government controlled.

And most Scandinavian countries have way more public expenditure than the rest of Europe, are prosperous and laugh at the Euro crisis.


The Discusion

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right! on the government involvement
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: its an interesting subject for sure
[13:29] Mick Nerido: Its ironic the "Free Market" is anything bur "Free!"
[13:29] Farv Hallison: we need a fair market/.
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is a website of ayn rand in case you would like to listen to her defend some of her philosophy
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: its really crazy really that one author with a completely screwed up mind can wreck so much damage on the entire world
[13:30] herman Bergson: The right term Farv...a FAIR market...
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in her own voice
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that one single person can do so much damage
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): which seems to b e bigger than she was
[13:31] Farv Hallison: but how do we know what FAIR is?
[13:31] herman Bergson: That is the whole issue of politics Farv....what is FAIR....
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: every political party has an own imagination about FAIR
[13:32] herman Bergson: Oh yes Lizzy....
[13:32] herman Bergson: Just look at the Tea Party ideas in the US...or the extreme right wing in Europe...
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aa
[13:33] Farv Hallison: Ayn Rand thought there was no reason to be fair because we are only material objects. The only morality is survival of the fittest.
[13:33] herman Bergson: they even cant spell the word "sharing"
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: the rights are controlling sweden at the moment and made a hell for unemployed people
[13:33] herman Bergson: There she was a clumsy ignorant Farv....
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: take from the poor give to the rich
[13:33] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Herman can you please give a few examples of animal altruism.
[13:34] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Farve, that is the exact opposite of what she believed; she thought that man was a spiritual being, and that fairness only came to play if all there was was material objects to distribute
[13:34] herman Bergson: Oh plenty....
[13:34] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): And she would admit to animal altuism; she was concerned with life qua human.
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: we know it from primitive people as well
[13:35] herman Bergson: That was her fundamental error Huntress....
[13:35] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I am more interested in concrete examples
[13:35] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): To be concerned with life qua human?
[13:35] herman Bergson: She overlooked the fact that evolutionary we are as much an animal as all other animals on this planet
[13:35] herman Bergson: Real examples...
[13:35] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): So would you deny that here is human consciousness and rational activity of the soul?
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bees are altruistic
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): They are?
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ants more so
[13:36] herman Bergson: One moment all..I want to answer Annie
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): They are?
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I have yet to see a bee or ant help an old lady across the road
[13:36] herman Bergson: Type Altruism in Wikipedia as search term....
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Certainly regarding their reproduction
[13:36] herman Bergson: there is a lemma Animal altruism….
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: 'hehe but maybe they help themselves a lot
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and yeah, ants are related to bees
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: a bee hive is like a collective
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: I suspect that animals have consciousness and varying degrees of rationality
[13:37] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Each Bee or Ant is related with a nest
[13:37] herman Bergson: Even some ants are biologically altruistic...
[13:37] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): with
[13:37] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): within
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes thats it, the work to promote the clan genes not their personal ones
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: cats have a lot of empathy, for humans and each other, though they are often confused :)
[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: i heared it from elephants
[13:38] herman Bergson: In case of danger a specific species of ants closes the entrances of their nest...
[13:38] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): They do NOT help rival none related nests
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): This came up in the consciousness talk Druth
[13:38] herman Bergson: But to complete this they need workers outside...
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I personally think animals perceive just as we do
[13:38] herman Bergson: which will perish...
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Mammals anyway for sure
[13:38] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Well, Rand grants altruism in an emergency; in the sense of individual sacrifice for what appears to be a greater good.
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: herman
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: let me take you up on an important point of fact
[13:39] herman Bergson: ok
[13:39] herman Bergson: Let tessa speak plz
[13:40] herman Bergson: Tessa is typing I guess.....
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hmmmm
[13:40] herman Bergson: Oh dear...she crashed....
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol
[13:41] herman Bergson: Dont laugh Merlin ^_^
[13:41] herman Bergson: That is soooo annoying....
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *stifles further laughing
[13:41] Farv Hallison: thoughts can have profound effects
[13:41] herman Bergson: grins
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: if people must only work to their own good then any form of self-sacrifice for any reason would be counter productive
[13:42] Mick Nerido: When Pam saved Jim's life he "owes" her in some way...
[13:42] herman Bergson: yes Druth....
[13:42] herman Bergson: That is a major issue in evolutionary biology....
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: wb tessa
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: Wb Tressa
[13:42] Volta (jerome.ronzales): wb
[13:42] herman Bergson: Welccome back Tessa...
[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:43] herman Bergson: Let all be quiet now and give the floor to Tessa...
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: <= imagines what Tessa is thinking now*
[13:43] herman Bergson: You had a major point Tessa...
[13:43] Farv Hallison: We have a sense of time, a few generations anyway; we will sacrifce for our children or ourbreputation. We know we wont live forever.
[13:44] herman Bergson: Ok Tessa is still thinking...
[13:44] Volta (jerome.ronzales): we know?
[13:44] herman Bergson: To get back to Druth...
[13:45] herman Bergson: In my previous lecture I gave an example what looks like counterproductive for the individual...
[13:45] Volta (jerome.ronzales): ah-ok!
[13:45] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[13:45] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I have looked at wiki Herman, I think Looking at the dictionary , altruism seems to have more than one meaning and perhaps that is why we disagree so profoundly
[13:45] herman Bergson: certain monkeys start calling out when there is a predettar in sight...that is...in THEIR sight....
[13:46] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Well, under Rand, it means sacrificing your highest values to a value you don't agree with.
[13:46] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): So sacrifice your children to Baal, drafting people for an unpopular war, that sort of thing
[13:46] herman Bergson: this means that they make themselves target of the predetar....so in terms of survival as individual they seem to be not the fittest
[13:47] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Unless, the group was their highest value; a mother sacrificing herself for her children is *not* a sacrifice in the Randian sense
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: I crashed
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: then somebody came to the door
[13:47] Volta (jerome.ronzales) " thats why monkey meat is appreciated in China restaurants"
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: thats very out of date btw
[13:47] herman Bergson: Exactly Huntress...
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: hard to get monkey meat in china nowadays
[13:48] herman Bergson: Rand is completely a-historical, a-social and a-cultural
[13:48] Volta (jerome.ronzales): ;)
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: in other words she's nuts
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: herman could I beg your indulgence to go back to my point?
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry about my crash
[13:48] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Not a social, but yes, she believes her truths are perrenial in history and transcend culture
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: at least seem to lack any social behaviour
[13:49] herman Bergson: look at the Youtube URLs I gave in the previous lectures Bejiita..and yes...there is someone who says that Rand was completely insane...
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: as said before she probably would bee a terribly dbad mother
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: you said before that the development of China was government driven
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aa yes i watched this and when i can see about her so far might well be correct
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: my perspective on this is from very close quarters over several decades
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: Tessa isn't quite as young as she looks
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: esp if she is the one actually responsible for the world finance bancrupcy 2008
[13:50] herman Bergson: Give Tessa the floor plz
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: actually the government driven Chinese economy was a total disaster
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: when the world economy ground to a halt when us banks went down
[13:51] Tessa Zalivstok: in my experience most people were malnourished and poorly dressed
[13:51] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Teresa, yes, the Chinese are doing so well as they have capitalism now, albeit a highly regulated one
[13:51] herman Bergson: I am talking about current politics inChina....
[13:51] Tessa Zalivstok: when I say poorly I mean cold in winter to the extent that they died
[13:51] Tessa Zalivstok: yes
[13:52] Tessa Zalivstok: the development of china started in 1978 with an important scientific meeting which basically decided that the government should butt out of economics
[13:52] herman Bergson: And I am only talking about the economic growth rate...
[13:52] Tessa Zalivstok: which they did
[13:53] herman Bergson: the 5 years planning system..yes
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:53] Tessa Zalivstok: interestingly the levels of development in various chinese regions correlate very precisely with the share of government in the economy
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: Shen Zhen where i live has basically zero government role and is the richest
[13:54] herman Bergson: Well Tessa..of course I am not an expert in this field....
[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: don't they have a black market? we call it shadow economy
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: Guizhou which is the poorest has 70% government
[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is happening all over
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: the economy is a market economy
[13:54] herman Bergson: but the Chinese economy is booming and the one party system keeps all in check, I would say
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: there is no black market
[13:55] Tessa Zalivstok: even so-called government enterprises work in the market economy
[13:55] Tessa Zalivstok: the question of what is a government enterprise could take up an hour in itself
[13:55] herman Bergson: Well..we get into detail here too much....
[13:55] Tessa Zalivstok: so I don't think it's accurate to say what you did
[13:56] Tessa Zalivstok: the governments share in the economy is lower than in most european countries
[13:56] herman Bergson: What my lecture was about is to show that the ideas of Ayn Rand are....to quote Bejiita, 'nuts' form a philosophical perspective
[13:56] Tessa Zalivstok: that is an important figure
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: indded thats my view of her from what i've heard so far
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: started reading a bit on atlas too to see what its really all about
[13:57] Tessa Zalivstok: of course she's Russian
[13:57] herman Bergson: Look at the Scandinavian countries Tessa...
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: then ill get the perfect picture i guess
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: but nuts indeed
[13:57] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[13:57] Tessa Zalivstok: quite out of the mainstream of English thought on government
[13:57] herman Bergson: the government share seems to be there higher than in allother european countries....and they prosper...even in this crisis
[13:58] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Please, I think everyone agrees that Ayn was at least a couple of cards short of a full hand, but then you taking a huge leap to dismiss capitaism in the same breath
[13:58] Tessa Zalivstok: I'm not sure why people spend so much time on her and her turgid novels
[13:58] Tessa Zalivstok: they hardly drive thought
[13:58] herman Bergson: No no Annie....I dont dismiss capitalism at all!
[13:58] Tessa Zalivstok: sounds a lot like it to me
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: the problem is the greediness
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: take from the poor and give to the rich
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: jump on the ones laying down
[13:59] Tessa Zalivstok: how do "they" do that?
[13:59] Volta (jerome.ronzales): take what?
[13:59] herman Bergson: ideology Tessa....
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: i use to say the world need a new Robin Hood
[14:00] Lizzy Pleides: that would be fun
[14:00] Farv Hallison: make the people work hard but don't pay them enough to buy the product.
[14:00] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well here in USA the tax rate is higher on middle cllass workers than on the very very wealthy who pay so little
[14:00] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so that is taking in a way
[14:00] Volta (jerome.ronzales): the concept of taking and the greediness idea can be pretty weird sometimes
[14:00] Tessa Zalivstok: ideology isn't a potent force for taking money from people presumably by force
[14:00] herman Bergson: Exactly Gemma...here too....
[14:00] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thks
[14:01] herman Bergson: But let's not start a political discussion on details
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: look
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: the reality of history
[14:01] herman Bergson: This still is a philosophy class...
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: communism is a total economic failure
[14:01] herman Bergson: And what I wanted to make clear to you is
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: total
[14:01] druth Vlodovic: hard to separate if you're discussing the validity of an economic philosophy
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: details matter here
[14:02] herman Bergson: that the Ayn Rand philosophy is a huge erro
[14:02] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[14:02] herman Bergson: tho adopted by the financial world...to begin with Greenspan...
[14:03] herman Bergson: What I want to clarify is...where the Utopia of the Free market leads to....and in what way it has its good features
[14:03] herman Bergson: I guess I need a few more lectures....
[14:03] Lizzy Pleides: TC Farv
[14:03] Volta (jerome.ronzales): the idea i take from here today is that the altruism of a economic philosophy is not favorable to the common wealth of today!!??
[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your vivid participation....
[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismissed... ^_^
[14:03] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you very much Herman
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: hmm ot of interestigt stuff for sure
[14:04] oola Neruda: i think the takeaway is meant to be that altruism IS helpful to the commonwealth
[14:04] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: oki now i need to rush to an event
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[14:04] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[14:04] Volta (jerome.ronzales): herman i made a post on my jerome FB page
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: ':)

386: The Utopia of the Free Market - Atlas Shrugged

In her Introduction to her book "Capitalism, the unknown Ideal (1666) Ayn Rand writes :"This book is addressed to the young—in years or in spirit— who are not afraid to know and are not ready to give up.

What they have to discover, what all the efforts of capitalism's enemies are frantically aimed at hiding, is the fact that capitalism is not merely the "practical," but the only moral system in history. (See Atlas Shrugged.) (…) This present book may help them. It is a nonfiction footnote to Atlas Shrugged."

This illustrates exactly how Ayn Rand influenced American economic thinking: primarily through her novels and especially "Atlas Shrugged".

The opening line of Atlas Shrugged is: "Who is John Galt?" It appears to be a kind of slang expression, which you use when you don't know what to say, somewhat like "Whatever!" But in Part III of Atlas Shrugged the question is answered….

Although the story is centered around Taggert Transcontinental Railways, the core of the story is this:

In the history to date the burden of the survival of humanity is always worn by 'Atlases', i.e. free, brilliant and creative producers. They made sure there was food for everyone, they taught their fellowmen to study nature rationally and to develop techniques to subject nature.

They made life getting better. Through the influence of mystics, priests and philosophers, these creative loners however, also were convinced that it is their responsibility and obligation to largely self efface for their fellow human beings whose needs should be central. (Rand's anti-altruism)

In the indeterminate age which Ayn Rand describes in her novel and which seems to lie not far into the future , one has largely accepted the idea of collective altruism. Outside America, in old Europe, one no longer believed already in production for the free market.

There are everywhere people's republics created in which the means of production are nationalized.This leads to disaster and misery. As the only remaining capitalist state in the world America must support and nurture Europeans.

But even this last bastion of the free market will perish for two reasons. In the first place the government in Washington with its socialist aspirations puts increasingly a heavy burden on the economy.

This all is regulated with strong support of the trade unions. There are increasing taxes and cartels (of which Rand was an ardent supporter) are prohibited. There are increasingly interventions in the free economy, because of which production decreases rapidly.

Secondly the demise of the free market takes place as more and more top industrials mysteriously disappear. With their disappearance disappears often their property too, the means of production destroyed. Oil wells are on fire, factories are sabotaged .

And if that was not bad enough, every time a large capitalist disappears without leaving too much direct damage, no one appears able to take over and continue operations. Any successor who takes over the holding, including the state-appointed managers, fails hopelessly.

The result is that the collapsing economy and society falls back to barbaric times of hunger and poverty.
There is no more heating, the trains break down, the food shipments from the west don't reach New York and other major cities in the East anymore.

Ayn Rand describes the downfall of America as a classic dystopia, which means the idea of a society in a repressive and controlled state, often under the guise of being utopian, as characterized in books like Brave New World or 1984.

At the same time secretly in a valley in the rugged mountains of Colorado, a new society is prepared, which will be the utopia of greed.

Here live the disappeared super-industrialists, bankers and the judge who absolutely wanted to maintain private property rights.

This valley, as they say themselves, is their Atlantis. In the world outside, these Atlases went out on strike and they reached something striking workers never achieved:

the civil clockwork has come to a stand still just by the hand the capitalists. When they go on strike the whole economy collapses.

In their own Atlantis now the residents indulge themselves fully in free market capitalism. Everyone produces,acts and competes with each other. Nothing is given out of engagement or friendship, everything must be earned by working or be paid for.

The super capitalists in Atlantis even love telling each other how much they compete with eachother and fleece the other. This is only good for production and wealth, which will grow rapidly in this way.

When the social collapse of the outside world finally is inescapable and the New Yorkers are in a desperate exodus of their city and attempt state to leave, the time has come for the people of Atlantis to save the world.

John Galt, their leader, who has worked hard to destroy the old world, says at the end of the novel and I quote:

"The road is cleared," said Galt. "We are going back to the world."
He raised his hand and over the desolate earth he traced in space the sign of the dollar.


The Discussion

[13:27] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:27] herman Bergson: shrugges ㋡
[13:27] Mistyowl Warrhol: LOL
[13:28] herman Bergson: The floor is yours if you have a question or remark
[13:28] oola Neruda: it is public knowledge that large corporations in the US have a lot of money but are refusing to hire now...
[13:28] Android Neox: The problem with capitalism as a moral system is that morality depends upon an assumption of some equality among people. Capitalism makes no such assumption and no compensation for the condition of one's birth.
[13:28] Android Neox: The survival and advancement of mankind is actually due to the cooperative labors of the masses… not supermen. All accomplishment and wealth is due, in part, to society. From The Radical Politics of Thomas Jefferson, "Give a man a continent and, without society, he cannot prosper. He may, with effort, survive. But, he cannot prosper."
[13:28] herman Bergson: hold on plz....
[13:29] herman Bergson: keep our rules, which are behind me to the left, in mind
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Android....
[13:30] oola Neruda: i feel they are manipulating the economy for political reasons
[13:30] herman Bergson: Cut you statement to nice pieces...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe we can discuss them then
[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh yes oola...large companies do...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Take the oil companies...
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Survival of the fittest...
[13:31] oola Neruda: deregulation is a battle cry
[13:31] herman Bergson: they come up with the excuse...trouble in the east...so prizes of gas go up
[13:31] oola Neruda: or the excuse... we want to see what interest rates are doing
[13:32] oola Neruda: that is wall street talk... money is the goal
[13:32] herman Bergson: Well oola..that is what we'll discuss in future lectures...
[13:32] Farv Hallison: They will manipulate the election by causing a financial collapse in October just before the election.
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: everything is money it seems, yourself as person have no value, your value is in how much money you got
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: that seems to be how they think
[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: Oil prices are set by speculators, oil companies don't want you to know that.
[13:32] herman Bergson: we live in a money economy at the moment, and that hasn't been the case all through hostory...
[13:33] Android Neox: The Republican party has made it clear that they would rather see America fail than Obama succeed.
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: That is one very true statement, android !!!
[13:33] Mert Dexing: We can demonize the big corporations, but it would be more fair to look at our laws. Companies are legally required to do whatever is legal to raise profits. Otherwise shareholders can sue them.
[13:33] herman Bergson: The that is a pretty desperate party Android...
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Mert...WE created this system of the money machine ourselves
[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: If we the people, allow them to get by with it, then who is really at fault.
[13:34] oola Neruda: it was ... my way or no way... had no thought for what people needed
[13:35] Android Neox: I don't think I can fit even a simple argument into 17 words, so I'll be off.
[13:35] Android Neox: thank you all
[13:35] oola Neruda: the propaganda machine...the spin doctors... make it all sound so nice...
[13:35] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:35] herman Bergson: oh dear...
[13:35] herman Bergson: I wouldn't have mind if he used 20 words
[13:35] herman Bergson: well..ok
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The number of lines depends on how wide your window is
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have to keep one thing in mind....
[13:36] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...
[13:36] Mistyowl Warrhol: So, did Ann predict the future or did ppl reading her book create it according to her words?
[13:36] herman Bergson: the last is true Misty....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Greenspan, Friedman, Hayek...the Chicago boys...
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: the capitalists saw an apologist for a moral system they could use to acquire wealth
[13:37] herman Bergson: Rand WAS really influential
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Druth something like that
[13:37] Farv Hallison: Allan Greenspan believed her and created the world in her image...then it collapsed.
[13:37] herman Bergson: exactly Farv..
[13:38] herman Bergson: But you know....
[13:38] oola Neruda: Greenspan is not either/or...there is a lot of grey area in him
[13:38] herman Bergson: Historically the biggest mistake was..
[13:38] druth Vlodovic: people who work only for their own interests aren't really loyal to a moral code or system
[13:38] herman Bergson: when in the 80s the communist economies collapsed...
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think I am supposed to know who Alan Greenspan is, but I dont
[13:39] oola Neruda: ended up head of the FED
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: Well, it does go back to the Christian Coalition.. which has nothing to do with Christians, but brought a gentleman by the name of Grover Norquist into the picture.
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): aah yes. talk1 I think
[13:39] herman Bergson: the capitalists slapped each other on their shoulders saying..didn't I tell you we were right!!!!
[13:39] Farv Hallison: Greenspan was chairman of the FED
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): when?
[13:39] Mick Nerido: It has not collapsed, it was adjusted down lol
[13:40] druth Vlodovic: communism suffered from the same problem our economy suffers from, rule by the self-interested
[13:40] herman Bergson: at least a wall collapsed Mick ^_^
[13:40] druth Vlodovic: once you can remove consideration fro others from your mind then any system can't survive you running it
[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think pure capitalism is as doomed to fail as pure socialism or communism.
[13:40] herman Bergson: But in a real different way Druth
[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): A balance is what's needed.
[13:41] herman Bergson: Here it was legit...there is wasn't, .but very one idid it
[13:41] Mick Nerido: China has an interesting mix of Capitalism and State control
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: So, what would be the ideal government?
[13:41] oola Neruda: philosopher king?
[13:41] herman Bergson: Let's wayt with that question for later Misty
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: technically it isn't supposed to be legit here either, they just adjust laws and such to continuously advantage themselves
[13:42] oola Neruda: yes druth
[13:42] Mistyowl Warrhol: "pouting" Ok.. LOL
[13:42] Farv Hallison: The problem is not state control, but control by multinational corporations…..they created the laws that they hid behind
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: i guess so
[13:43] oola Neruda: think superpac
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aa yes, the laws are made so they can use everyone for their own profits only
[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): points at Farv. What he said.
[13:43] herman Bergson: when a multinational 'threatens ' a government to raise gas prizes for instance...I think they do that
[13:43] Farv Hallison: they created the idea that the purpose of the state is to protect property
[13:43] Mistyowl Warrhol: The superpac is very much like what Ann predicted and it is life and well.
[13:44] druth Vlodovic: the problem as I see it is that the purpose of the system is no longer the good of the society, however you conceive it, but the advantage of a small few who do not feel dependent on that system
[13:44] Mick Nerido: Does any one here own stock in a corporation?
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: If i say like this, before companies and banks was for the customers
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: now we are for them instead
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the other way around
[13:44] herman Bergson: That is exactly the problem Druth
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: to fill their wallets
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: their
[13:45] herman Bergson: I am not sure but it was Rand who invented the expression "to make money"
[13:45] druth Vlodovic: the funniest thing is to meet a rich "anarchist" they simply assume that their power and welath is not dependent on the social-economic system that created it
[13:46] herman Bergson: so we live in a world where the highest goal is to make money
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes "born with silver spoon in the mouth"
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:47] Farv Hallison: If we are just material objects there is no external morality.
[13:47] oola Neruda: strange that a lot of "conservative christians"... whose goals i would expect to be alturistic... are republicans and tea party members...
[13:47] oola Neruda: it seems contradictory
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: they seem to think they are born with some special ability that make them wealthy and worh mych more then others because of that
[13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): or materialism is the morality
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: The greatest asset a company has it the loyalty of their employees.. when they lose that, they lose all in the end.
[13:47] Mert Dexing: You can blame that on the "prosperity gospel" Bejiita
[13:47] herman Bergson: Interesting observation oola
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hmm
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: I've seen companies deliberately attempt to break employees of their morale and loyalty
[13:48] oola Neruda: materialism:...this world is (not) my home
[13:48] Mert Dexing: It's an evangelical Christian belief that God gives wealth to his ardent followers
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: the more pressure you put on the employees the less they ask for,
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: also shit runs downhill ;-/
[13:48] oola Neruda: i disagree mert
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats nasty for sure
[13:48] oola Neruda: blessings do not have to mean wealth
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: heard such stories indeed
[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have heard that the lower workers suffer the most stress
[13:49] Mick Nerido: So companies fire the 10% lowest performers each year!
[13:49] Mistyowl Warrhol: Oola, makes a good point.. but it is not true Christians. it is greedy ones, who wrap themselves in a cloak of religion..
[13:49] Farv Hallison: water runs down hill, too.
[13:49] Mert Dexing: But, when it comes to super-wealthy Christians, it's how they interpret it
[13:49] oola Neruda: yes Mert...agree
[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Like 'Champagne Socialists' too
[13:50] herman Bergson: INteresting to bring in christianity combined with social politics....
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: indeed thats how they think
[13:50] herman Bergson: not a popular mix in the US I guess...
[13:50] herman Bergson: Can they spell the word Samaritan?
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: As the guy said, when they bring Religion into politics, it is never about religion.. it is all politics.
[13:51] oola Neruda: for some people... they make the economy the issue... for other people they talk about hot item controversial social issues...as if that is what they really were concerned with
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes religion is about mostly to gain yourself and create misery for the others
[13:51] herman Bergson: lol Bejiita!
[13:51] Farv Hallison: They waited in Colorado for the self-destructive people to kill themselves off, They survived
[13:51] herman Bergson (from dutch): Bejiita lol!
[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): People can bend religious beliefs to support anything
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: if not with war and killing so with greed
[13:51] Mick Nerido: God is on our side say the religious all over the world
[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think religion is about control.
[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Mick
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: religion is killing this world
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: everything spins out of control
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: religion is about human desire for spirituality corrupted into a political tool
[13:52] herman Bergson: If you recall my previous project you could put a big question mark by religion....
[13:52] herman Bergson: it is a social phenomenon...yes...
[13:52] Mistyowl Warrhol: I disagree.. it is not religion.. but the use of religion for evil means, that is the problem. :-)
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: the funny thing is that when it goes bad the "politicians" can just blame the spirituality they corrupted
[13:53] herman Bergson: of course it is Misty
[13:53] oola Neruda: Nietzsche did not like religion in general...but he had deep respect for the devout people who truely followed Christ's example and instruction
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes religion is one thing but where does the original scripts say we should just think about ourself
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: kill homosexuals
[13:53] oola Neruda: there are honest people out there trying to do the right thing
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and start bloody wars everywhere
[13:53] herman Bergson: yes oola....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i dont think either the bible or koran says that
[13:54] druth Vlodovic: it's there in various spots
[13:54] Mick Nerido: Jesus would be killed again if he reappeared, that is the sad lesson
[13:54] druth Vlodovic: god himself commonly engaged in genocide
[13:54] herman Bergson: well. my friends....
[13:54] herman Bergson: we stared with Atlas Shrugged....
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Jesus and the Old Testament are totally different things
[13:54] Mistyowl Warrhol: A true person of faith is too busy doing good.. those ppl are few and far between.
[13:54] oola Neruda: yes Merlin
[13:54] oola Neruda: totally different
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your enthousiastic participation.....
[13:55] Mick Nerido: Excellent class
[13:55] herman Bergson: this is only the third lecture in this series... ㋡
[13:55] druth Vlodovic: I wonder, how much nihilism is involved in the current trend to allow everything to go to hell except your own wealth
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: this gets more and more interesting
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:56] Mert Dexing: Thank you professor
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all
[13:56] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you!
[13:56] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): that's a lot to think about..
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: and one that is very involved. Please everyone, keep the USA in your thoughts. today is our Super Tues.. we see who is the Repu.. candiate for Prez. LOL
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: capitalists seeing themselves in ayn rands godlike "atlas'" lol
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all
[13:57] Mert Dexing: It was nice meeting everyone
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bejiita
[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Bye Bejita
[13:57] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC everyone. til next time :-)
[13:57] druth Vlodovic: cya all, have fun
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight everyone
[[13:58] herman Bergson: Well Mert?
[13:58] herman Bergson: What do you think?
[13:58] Mert Dexing: Well, I keep wondering if there isn't some merit to Rand
[13:59] Mert Dexing: Maybe there is a point where selfishness is good
[13:59] Mert Dexing: I'd like to say that is always isn't
[13:59] herman Bergson: you may not believe it...
[13:59] Mistyowl Warrhol: There is a difference is being selfish and taking care of self.. Hard lesson I had to learn.
[14:00] herman Bergson: but Rand is the auctor spiritualis of the present financial crisis...
[14:00] herman Bergson: Not s e personally....
[14:00] herman Bergson: but through her disciples like Greenspan, Friedman and Hayek
[14:00] Mert Dexing: Imagine though if we had a big-wig oil Tycoon here
[14:01] herman Bergson: Greenspan was FED president till 2006!
[14:01] Mert Dexing: Wouldn't he or she be able to offer some kind of compelling argument?