Schopenhauer died in 1860. With Adam Smith we go back to 1750. He is the first one with a new vision on man.Besides he is the 50th philosopher that I lecture on now. We have come a long way and this may be a good moment to review what is behind us.
I follow the development of the human mind step by step. And I always have wondered: is there a real progress, a growth here or is it just a lot of the same in a different way?
I was 19 years old, when I when I started my academic education. The Dutch academic education lasted 6 years in those days: 3 years for bachelor and 3 years for the doctorate. So it is almost 40 years ago that I did what I do now....study the history of philosophy.
It is an amazing experience. In the first place because you are such a good class and in the second place because I see all these philosophical theories with such a different eyes.
As I have said from the beginning, my main focus is on epistemology (What can I know?) and related to that on ontology (What does exist?) and now I dare to say that there IS a development. What I do NOT say is whether it is towards some final goal or nor. That would be Aristotelian teleology.
But when we look back at all philosophers we have discussed now you could see a pattern. The Greek were the first to come up with epistemological and ontological questions. Besides that they got interested in virtue...the question of what is a good human?
By the rise of the christian faith and its great influence and control on the development of society for long time these questions were answered in just one way. And this faith brought dogmatism into the debate. Or actually with christian convictions there was no debate possible.
But you cannot imprison the human mind in dogmatism. All christian walls were thrown over by men like Galileo, Copernicus and Newton. A new mind claimed its place in this world: the scientific mind....not dogmas but laws of nature rule the world.
Then the big battle emerges: what can we know?......who tells us that? Does it come from the mind itself..is that the source of certainty or are we fully dependent on the senses only.
We need to compromise Kant said: mind and senses work together..they both have their specific input to answer the question : what can I know? Schopenhauer refined this view in the sense that he clearly pointed at the subject - object relation and their interaction.
And now we have arrived at our 50th philosopher, born in 1723. Between 1723 and 1823 the world had been on fire....In France the king no longer was a representative of God on earth and decapitated. No longer wanted the inhabitants of the American continent live under the rule of the king of England. Revolution in Europe and America.
The world was no longer a single continent, from 1450 on the Dutch sailed the seas and other nations did the same...global business. The french and english fought because of the fur business on the american continent. The English fought their way through India to colonize it.. ...
And all the philosphers we have discussed, the ones from 1720 to 1820 have lived through all these historic events. And in the meantime - since Newton - science developed. The human mind cant be stopped asking questions . It keeps on investigating driven by its will to understand why it exists, why all exists.
Is there a why to this....I dont think so...we shoud follow the empiricist and rationalists equally in this: they just observed how the human mind was constructed and operating and came to conclusions. We may disagree and that is a good start for a philosophical debate again.
In the period of 1750 to 1850 the world had become a world of international trade and communication. national governments werent able to keep it all under control and on the other hand we see the emancipation of the individual. The call for human rights....formulated by the French Revolution and in the First Amendment.
For Western civilisation absolutism is over.....democracies emerges. Yet a long way to go, but here we really enter a new historic aera. And we'll see this in the philosophers who are next.
While composing this lecture I felt excited....the overview...I never could have written this for you when I would have been 24. Thank you for your attention...the next philosopher will be Adam Smith...^_^....today it was my turn :-)
Main Resources:
Philip Stokes, Philosophy: 100 essential thinkers
The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
The Discussion
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: It crossed my mind that with the coming of Adam Smith that a new society was dawning.
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: :-) good summary at 50
[13:28] Herman Bergson: thnx Gemma...
[13:29] Herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle..he inspired me to write the summary...He is at the doorstep of a new society
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: it helps to put into perspective what we have done
[13:29] hope63 Shepherd: and we'll see that the new will be feeding on the nourishing thoughts of the old..:)
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: yes I can see the before and after potential of you summarry,, thanks
[13:29] Herman Bergson: YEs Gemma..that was my intention....to give you a perspective...
[13:30] Herman Bergson: as I said..there is a development...
[13:30] Herman Bergson: it is a dvelopment towards individualism
[13:30] Herman Bergson: like in this age a major issue is individual privacy...
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: yes society giveth and society taketh away
[13:31] arabella Ella: also perhaps the democratisation of knowledge?
[13:31] Herman Bergson: amen..:-)
[13:31] hope63 Shepherd: individualism has always been.. but limited to the few in power..
[13:31] Herman Bergson: Hello Aya..welcome
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: or better attempts to take away
[13:32] Aya Beaumont: Hello people
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: hi Aya
[13:32] arabella Ella: hi Aya
[13:32] Herman Bergson: I dont agree Hope...
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: an individual should not surrender
[13:32] Cailleach Shan: Hello
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: hello Aya
[13:32] Herman Bergson: With individualism I mean that we now value the life of every individual equally
[13:33] hope63 Shepherd: with individual wealth and power spreading in europe.. natural for individuals to be more munerous..
[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: and so it should be
[13:33] arabella Ella: but do we really value the life of each individual equally?
[13:33] Herman Bergson: Yes and a man like Adam Smith begins this debate...tho some before him paved the way of course
[13:34] hope63 Shepherd: at least we start to think of it ara...:)
[13:34] Herman Bergson: No we dont Arabella...we are still on the Animal Farm level
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: I think that wealth or the lack of it deterimes how you are treated in this world
[13:34] Herman Bergson: where was the rule: all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal
[13:35] Cailleach Shan: mmmm..... some of the Animal Farms are somewhat more advanced than others.
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: Orwell was a genius
[13:35] arabella Ella: it seems to be more of a distinction between same and different ... where race, colour, religion etc are concerned ... unfortunately
[13:35] hope63 Shepherd: ari.. you surprise me ... wealth beats reason:)
[13:36] Herman Bergson: When you look at Western civilisation and the rest of the world you see a big clash at the moment
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: wealt seems to be more powerful than reason today
[13:36] Aya Beaumont: But valueing people according to the groups they belong to seems to be the norm today...
[13:36] arabella Ella: yes herman i agree
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: yes Aya it is group mentality
[13:36] Cailleach Shan: What is the clash Herman?
[13:36] Herman Bergson: While we are highly individualized in Africa tribes are fighting ..in the arab world crowds of believers demonstrate
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: or rather Gang mentality
[13:37] arabella Ella: and the issue of illegal immigration in europe and elsewhere does not make things any easier
[13:37] Herman Bergson: It could be that our individualism collides with other cultures at the moment
[13:37] Aya Beaumont: They say that this will lead to equality... but the more groups are included, the worse the non-included are treated.
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: the fear of ones group losing power or control is very frightening
[13:38] Herman Bergson: Yes Aya..that is a point
[13:38] arabella Ella: well the media often 'demonises' 'otherness' unfortunately
[13:39] hope63 Shepherd: so nherman.. if there i a clash between cultures,is the a clash with the idea of induividualism..
[13:39] arabella Ella: whereas in fact diversity is healthy and interesting
[13:39] Aya Beaumont: So most likely, equality can only be achieved by declaring the rights of every individual.
[13:39] Cailleach Shan: Are we looking at 'groups' or individual beings
[13:39] hope63 Shepherd: brave new world aya..
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: the basic tenet of freedom is the individual
[13:40] hope63 Shepherd: ari.. the individual is .... forget it..
[13:40] Herman Bergson: Yes..that is what men like Smith and Mill already stated in 1750
[13:41] Herman Bergson: Our society is focused on the individual and his rights...
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: if I were to revere any philosophy it would be these philisophers coming up
[13:41] Herman Bergson: and a number of societies havent that same focus
[13:42] hope63 Shepherd: we got there where we are because our ancestors realized that a society is the survival.. now we have to find a new way to find a durvicval theory..
[13:42] Aya Beaumont: It's odd, because people of these cultures think the same way we do.
[13:42] Cailleach Shan: Are you referring to the Western society Herman... China still has a focus on the 'whole' rather than the individual I think.
[13:42] Herman Bergson: Yes Aya..that is what is fascinating me too
[13:42] Aya Beaumont: They consider how they themselves may live a good life.
[13:42] Aya Beaumont: They react when they are dealt unfair hands.
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: the fact is that power is the corrupting factor
[13:43] arabella Ella: as the saying goes ... people are people wherever you go
[13:43] Herman Bergson: You may be true Aristotle...
[13:43] Herman Bergson: but I am always amazed by the phenomenon of power...
[13:43] hope63 Shepherd: ari.. i'm not so sure .. power as may be a survival factor in the past..
[13:43] Aya Beaumont: And the tribal/societal structures are generally social functions like life insurance or security.
[13:44] arabella Ella: as in ... all pigs are equal but some are more equal than others
[13:44] Aya Beaumont: I think that given the same environment we have, they'd relish it too.
[13:44] Herman Bergson: individuals come to power and use it to keep it for personal interest...not for the benifit of all
[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: if all the world's citizens were enlightend then power would not exist
[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: or dominate poser
[13:44] hope63 Shepherd: arabella. no politics in philosophy please
[13:44] arabella Ella: power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: yes Arabella !
[13:45] Aya Beaumont: Lord Acton said that power TENDS to corrupt.
[13:45] arabella Ella: hope i was only quoting from orwell
[13:45] Cailleach Shan: She who has the most power never uses it!!!
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: yes..'she' is correct Cail
[13:46] Sage Hartmann: Herman, do you have more to say on Adam Smith, or are we starting more general discussion? :)
[13:46] Herman Bergson: who is she, Cailleach?
[13:46] hope63 Shepherd: lol.. i know.. but the citation was so close to actual politics I could not stop myself lol
[13:46] arabella Ella: lol
[13:46] Cailleach Shan: She is the eternal being.
[13:46] Herman Bergson: Next class will be on Adam Smith personally Sage...:-)
[13:46] Sage Hartmann: ohh ok =)
[13:47] Aya Beaumont: Heh.
[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: and 'she' is actually the ruler of the world
[13:47] Aya Beaumont: You mean Madonna or Paris Hilton? =)
[13:47] Cailleach Shan: lol could be her dog.
[13:47] hope63 Shepherd: look at chromosmose ari,.. xx for woman.. xy for men so who is dominant..lol
[13:47] Herman Bergson: I vote for Madonna..:-)
[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: it is time to step forward, ladies
[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: you love it
[13:48] arabella Ella: sorry hope but your point is not clear at all
[13:48] Aya Beaumont: Step forward?
[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: yes it is your turn
[13:48] Sage Hartmann: Is this new notion of individualism so different from that of the ancient Greeks? While it excluded slaves and women, this was initially the case in post-Smith civilizations too - is there really such a change here?
[13:48] hope63 Shepherd: sorry ara. which point..
[13:49] hope63 Shepherd: ready any time to discuss:)
[13:49] Herman Bergson: Yes I think so Sage....
[13:49] arabella Ella: women still sruggle to obtain and maintain positions of power in the world and we are still grossly underrepresented
[13:49] Herman Bergson: ________________
[13:49] Herman Bergson:
[13:49] Herman Bergson: ** Silence plz ***
[13:49] Herman Bergson: ________________
[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: absolutly
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: yes Arabella but like the water dripping on the rock they will persevere
[13:49] Herman Bergson: Ari!!!!
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: sorry
[13:50] Cailleach Shan: lol
[13:50] Aya Beaumont is silent.
[13:50] Herman Bergson: I think Sage made a good point
[13:50] Herman Bergson: Is this new notion of individualism so different from that of the ancient Greeks? While it excluded slaves and women, this was initially the case in post-Smith civilizations too - is there really such a change here?
[13:51] Herman Bergson: I would say...yes there is a real change there
[13:51] Herman Bergson: (Welcome Osrum)
[13:51] AristotleVon Doobie: had it been practiced in regards to economics?
[13:51] Cailleach Shan: Hi Os...
[13:51] Herman Bergson: the main change is an epistemological one and an ontologicla one I would say
[13:51] AristotleVon Doobie: hello Os
[13:52] arabella Ella: could you elaboratye pls herman?
[13:52] Herman Bergson: it is the way the individual looks at his world and at his place in that world
[13:52] Sage Hartmann: Ahh, this is post-Kantian individualism?
[13:52] Cailleach Shan: In the society I live in things have changed. There is a definite emphasis on capitalism.
[13:53] Herman Bergson: That individualisme started with galileo and Newton
[13:53] Aya Beaumont: Luther set down principles for one kind of individualism...
[13:53] arabella Ella: do you mean we are no longer mini-deities herman?
[13:54] Herman Bergson: The refromation was anext step indeed Aya
[13:54] Aya Beaumont: in that every person for him/herself was responsible for having a relationship with God.
[13:54] Herman Bergson: that way of thinking w sin line with the philosophical developments of those days Aya
[13:54] Aya Beaumont: Indeed.
[13:55] jaynine Scarborough is Offline
[13:55] jaynine Scarborough is Online
[13:55] Herman Bergson: and that is what I find so fascinating......the develpment cant be stopped..it just goes on
[13:56] Aya Beaumont: It can be stopped... with enough surveillance.
[13:56] Herman Bergson: and I dont know what makes it move that direction
[13:56] Sage Hartmann: Is this a move from a more top-down to a more bottom-up organizational structure?
[13:56] Herman Bergson: no Aya..history shows that yu cant imprison the mind
[13:56] AristotleVon Doobie: you can only silence a man for a while
[13:57] arabella Ella: but you can never silence thoughts and ideas
[13:57] Aya Beaumont: Hmmm... the 4th to 14th centuries are a good argument that you can.
[13:57] Cailleach Shan: Some leaders still persist in trying though.
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: no, the mind will prevail
[13:57] arabella Ella: and today's digital technology helps to disseminate ideas even further
[13:58] Aya Beaumont: And to make control easier.
[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, and SL will furthur the cause
[13:58] Herman Bergson: To answer Sag's question..from top down to bottom up..yes that was the development...
[13:58] Herman Bergson: the French revolution wa sthe firtst bottom up movemnet so to speak..
[13:58] arabella Ella: Aya in Cuba some people go to hotels to use inernet to blog anonymously about their lives and to describe stuff to the rest of the world
[13:58] Aya Beaumont: But started with a movement in the nobility.
[13:59] Aya Beaumont: Ara... what happens when Cuban government can identify them through their IP numbers?
[13:59] hope63 Shepherd: the philsophers.. what is thweir opart in the french revolution..
[13:59] arabella Ella: they do not use their own IP numbers but public PCs in hotel lobbies
[14:00] AristotleVon Doobie: but the results of the Freanc Revolution proved that the citizens must be enlighted
[14:00] AristotleVon Doobie: enlightened
[14:00] AristotleVon Doobie: and the next must have enlightend citizenry
[14:01] Aya Beaumont: There is a european law pushed forward to deal with piracy... that internet providers must retain lists of who had what IP number at what time.
[14:01] Aya Beaumont smirks.
[14:01] AristotleVon Doobie: modern digital tech can provide that education
[14:01] Herman Bergson: Well, my friends.....
[14:02] Herman Bergson: I hope I could put all in a more historical perspective...
[14:02] arabella Ella: yes Aya but in countries with censorship it is somehow possible to by pass the system by using publicly accessible PCs to disseminate information, this is something that is happening today
[14:02] Gemma Cleanslate: yes i think so
[14:02] AristotleVon Doobie: it was very clear
[14:02] Herman Bergson: and in this discussion I see a lot of good insights
[14:02] Aya Beaumont: Hmmm.
[14:03] Aya Beaumont: Ara, I hope to the bottom of my heart you're right.
[14:03] Herman Bergson: Yes you ca be anonymous on the Net
[14:03] arabella Ella: well Aya those who do so are obviously taking huge risks but believe me it is happening
[14:03] Cailleach Shan: I enjoyed your 'helicopter' view Herman. thanks.
[[14:04] Herman Bergson: disguise your IP address
[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: how??
[14:04] Herman Bergson: Thanks Cailleach..
[14:04] Aya Beaumont: But if the internet provider has to retain lists, you can't.
[14:04] Gemma Cleanslate: that is true
[14:04] AristotleVon Doobie: we must fight governmet intrusion
[14:05] Aya Beaumont: And if you want to do that... I'd say it's time to start NOW.
[14:05] Herman Bergson: Well be sure..I am not interested in your IP addresses..:-)
[14:05] arabella Ella: one big threat is CCTV is so many places in europe today
[14:05] Sage Hartmann: I think it's fair to say that technology offers tools to both top-down and bottom-up movements... the relative degrees remain to be seen imo =)
[14:05] Gemma Cleanslate: oops getting late!!
[14:06] Gemma Cleanslate: hope to see you all on Sunday
[14:06] Aya Beaumont: Bye Gemma.
[14:06] Gemma Cleanslate: bye all
[14:06] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Gem
[14:06] Sage Hartmann: bye gemma :)
[14:06] arabella Ella: bye gmma
[14:06] Herman Bergson: Thank you for this good discussion
[14:06] Cailleach Shan: cu gemma
[14:06] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you Herman
[14:06] Osrum Sands: Sorry for being late Proff and floks, some invisible hand has been playing with the clock again
[14:06] Sage Hartmann: LOL
[14:06] Cailleach Shan: Smack him Os.
[14:06] Herman Bergson: YEs Osrum...we know..:-)
[14:07] AristotleVon Doobie: The US has a long reach
[14:07] Aya Beaumont: When do you have discussions here?
[14:07] Osrum Sands: now there is a worry with the rising of the American Dictatorship
[14:07] Cailleach Shan: It never stops Aya.
[14:07] arabella Ella: sunday, tuesday and thursday evenings if u are in europe
[14:07] Herman Bergson: Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday we get together Aya
[14:07] Herman Bergson: at 1 PM PDT...
[14:07] Aya Beaumont: Okie. Hope to catch more discussions. =)
[14:07] Cailleach Shan: Or if you live in the Southern Hemisphere it's Mon. Wed. Fri
[14:07] AristotleVon Doobie: Please do, Aya
[14:08] Herman Bergson: but for the coming weeks it is a problem because the US is 1 hour ahead of us
[14:08] arabella Ella: and Aya Herman has a blog with all previous discussions on line
[14:08] Herman Bergson: well...you can join the group if you like
[14:08] Aya Beaumont: Sure, I'd love to.
[14:08] Herman Bergson: besides we have the blog http://www.thoughts.com/herman_bergson/
[14:09] Herman Bergson: and above all we have our Aristotle...
[14:09] AristotleVon Doobie: You will get notices the day of the class
[14:09] AristotleVon Doobie: mmm
[14:09] Herman Bergson: give him an email address and you get all lectures and discussions and much more in a PDF
[14:10] Aya Beaumont: Hmmm, I'll stick with the blog, I think.
[14:10] arabella Ella: thank you so much for another interesting class herman
[14:10] arabella Ella: bye everyone i must go now
[14:10] Ze Novikov: Yes, ty
[14:10] AristotleVon Doobie: bye arabella
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