In my former lecture I paid attention to one of the two views on time, time as an absolute, a structural dimension of our universe. It is often metaphorically described as a stream or flow and in that sense understandable in relation to time traveling.
The opposing view is that time does not refer to any kind of "container" that events and objects "move through", nor to any entity that "flows", but that it is instead part of a fundamental intellectual structure (together with space and number) within which humans sequence and compare events.
This second view, in the tradition of Gottfried Leibniz and Immanuel Kant,holds that time is neither an event nor a thing, and thus is not itself measurable nor can it be travelled.
It is related to an ongoing discussion about words like past, present and future. What do these words mean. Do they describe real mind-independent properties of events, which would put the events in some linear relation to eachother? Time travelers will like this approach.
The other position is, that these words are so called token-reflexive, they refer to themself and can be translated in specific relations. These are the relations of earlier than, simultaneous with, and later than.
Thus, past, present. and future do not exist, or rather they have no mind-independent existence. This is not to deny the reality of time simpliciter, but only time conceived along certain lines.
Dividing time into present and future is roughly analogous to dividing space into here and there. There is, of course, nothing inherent in the structure of space that so divides it; it is divided into here and there only from the perspective of a particular observer.
Similarly, the division of time into past and present is a function of the way we experience reality, and is just as much dependent upon the perspective of a particular observer as is the division of space into here and there.
This approach deals with a kind of analysis like this: Ceasar crossed the Rubicon (E) contains a reference to a past tense, however, this reference doesnt mean more than the statement "E was earlier than this utterance"
One word on Duration. The only philosopher who emphasized this concept in relation to time was Bergson (1911) According to him, physical time is something spatialized and intellectualized, whereas the real thing, with which we are acquainted in intuition (inner experience), is duration.
Unlike physical time, which is always measured by comparing discrete spatial positions—for example, of clock hands—duration is the experienced change itself, the directly intuited nonspatial stream of consciousness in which past, present, and future flow into one another.
It is interesting in the context of the philosophy of time, but I don't see much relation with the issue of time traveling here.
One word on the spatio-temporal relation. Einstein had realized in 1905, that space and time, are intimately connected with each
other. One can describe the location of an event by four numbers.
Three numbers describe the position of the event. The fourth number, is the time of the event. Thus one can think of space and time together, as a four-dimensional entity, called space-time.
For a detailed discussion on the possibility of time traveling, based on Einstein's Relativity Theory I'd like to refer to a lecture of Stephen Hawking "Space an Time Warps'. I have the text for you available in a notecard.
This is all way over my head, but there is one important difference with the time traveling we discussed last Tuesday. In fact in this case it isnt the real SF-like time traveling, but only a matter of clocks running slower or faster.
And here we see that the time traveler isnt immune at all for this moving in time. It has serious consequences. So, I would conclude that there is time traveling and "time traveling" (with time machines and the like).
Let me finish with a quote from Stephen Hawking: "The conclusion of this lecture is that rapid space-travel, or travel back in time, can't be ruled out, according to our present understanding. They would cause great logical problems, so let's hope there's a Chronology Protection Law, to prevent people going back, and killing our parents."
Check also this superb articles:
Time Traveling : http://www.iep.utm.edu/t/timetrav.htm
Time : http://www.iep.utm.edu/t/time.htm
Showing posts with label Time Traveling. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Time Traveling. Show all posts
Friday, May 22, 2009
Wednesday, May 20, 2009
4a Is time traveling possible?
It wouldn't surprise me, if Stephen Law added the question about the possibility of time traveling to his list because it excites our imagination.
But more meaningfull is the fact that it stimulates us the think about the phenomenon time itself.
Because, if you have a moment, the more I studied on the concept of time, the more I discovered that there doesnt exist at all something that can be called time.
Oh yes, there is time, no doubt about that, however, nobody knows what it is, which means...we have a lot of theories.
Take the idea of time traveling. When you google on that, you absolutely need the capability of time traveling, if you want to check out all the hits, which I got: 264.000.000.
When we want to talk about time traveling we already have to begin with a big assumption. We must assume, that time is part of the fundamental structure of the universe, a dimension in which events occur in sequence.
Time travel, in this view, becomes a possibility as other "times" persist like frames of a film strip, spread out across the time line.
Sir Isaac Newton subscribed to this realist view. He was forced to assume that time is some absolute, an infinite to protect the idea of an eternal God.
So we commonly think of time as a stream that flows or as a sea over which we advance. If time flows past us or if we advance through time, this would be a motion with respect to some hypertime.
For motion in space is motion with respect to time, and motion of time or in time could hardly be a motion in time with respect to time.
If motion in space is meters per second, at what speed is the flow of time? Seconds per what? Moreover, if passage is of the essence of time, it is presumably the essence of hypertime, too, which would lead one to postulate a hyper-hypertime and so on ad infinitum.
The idea of time as passing is connected with the idea of events changing from future to past. We think of events as approaching us from the future, whereupon they are momentarily caught in the spotlight of the present and then recede into the past.
This is so closely related to our feeling that all our political or economical predictions are events that lie waiting in the future and will just come to us and move into the past.
In such a concept of time time traveling would be possible, I guess. However, we need to keep a sharp eye on the distinction of logical and physical possibility, for we will get confused by all kinds of paradoxes.
A classic one: I travel back in time and kill the father of my father, my grandfather. So my father will never be born. And consequently neither will I, though i am here in the past.
The interesting thing here is, that this only is a logical paradox, for what strikes me in such stories is that the timetraveler himself is left out of the picture completely as well as the concept of physical being.
I mean, when I travel back in time am I , myself, not affected physically by this process or do I have to assume that it is a completely immaterial process?
In other words, if we talk about a real physical proces what is the material substance of the time traveler, if you accept that all material processes are causal processes in time?
Even more complicated it becomes when we suppose that we can travel to the future. First of all this future must be a realized reality. It has to be "there" ....somehow, somewhere.
Suppose I am not too audacious and just jump 10 years into the future. There I see, how I die in a carcrash. That IS my future?
Whatever I do when I return to my own moment of time, I will end up in that carcrash. You mean that life is just a detemistic chain of cause and effect....no free will?
I have to stop....I need some more time. So the next lecture will be on time and time traveling too, if you do't mind....Too many unresolved questions left.
The Discussion
[13:20] itsme Frederix: mr. Bergson I missed the concept of duration
[13:20] herman Bergson: As I said..I had to stop....this is just the part that assumes that time is some kind of flow...stream
[13:21] Vico Rabeni: yes it is - but only in one direction
[13:21] Vladimir Apparatchik: Herman - I think your problem here is that you are thinking in time "jumps", travelling in time would be just like travelling in space I think
[13:21] herman Bergson: But only as a metaphor Vico
[13:21] itsme Frederix: Your thesis about hypertime is not reflecting the space-time continuum in modern relativity -
[13:22] Vladimir Apparatchik: Yes itsme
[13:22] herman Bergson: No Itsme as I said....this is more the Newtonian time concept
[13:22] Clear Clarity: I´ve read a book that says past is frozen, fixed, immobile, so there is no energy there. Because of that, we can't travel there
[13:22] itsme Frederix: Oke, but U used it nicely to tell some nice paradoxes
[13:23] herman Bergson: That, Clear , suggests that the past has some independent reality
[13:24] itsme Frederix: Clear in a way the same about the future ?!
[13:24] herman Bergson: And especially the ontological status of what we call past and future are an issue here
[13:24] herman Bergson: If they really have an ontological status....but the Myth of passage (through time) suggests it
[13:24] Clear Clarity: I guess so. I think the guy thinks of past as some imaginary thing, since if it exists, has mass, then it has energy
[13:25] herman Bergson: Ok....that is Einstein :-)
[13:25] Clear Clarity: (: yes
[13:25] itsme Frederix: Do we stick to Newtonian time (whatever it is) or can we add some more "advanced" concepts & I still miss "duree"
[13:25] Vladimir Apparatchik: And Einstein implies that both past and present and future all exist together
[13:26] Paula Dix: yes ive read somewhere time travel is possible according to einstein
[13:26] herman Bergson: If you dont mind Itsme I'll save that for the next lecture...
[13:26] herman Bergson: Acording to Newton time was some absolute...and I know since 1915 we have a different idea about that
[13:27] itsme Frederix: Oke, if we accept space-time continuum, and visualize (riemann space) time travel is nothing special - but takes some energy
[13:27] Paula Dix: a lot of energy?? :)
[13:27] herman Bergson: I think time travel as presented in literature and movies is a fiction
[13:28] itsme Frederix: all physical formula's do accept "negative" time (except entropy law thermo dynamics?)
[13:28] herman Bergson: Most interesting in this is StarTrek and space travel
[13:28] Vladimir Apparatchik: Not sure quantum mechanics does itsme
[13:29] Paula Dix: oh yes the worm holes!
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes..things like that..
[13:29] itsme Frederix: The thing in startrack is that travel in time means also space distortion/displacement! according to the rules I guess
[13:29] Paula Dix: yes, warp drive
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well...I guess an amazing impossibility
[13:30] herman Bergson: But so attractive
[13:30] Daruma Boa: perhaps not^
[13:30] itsme Frederix: What is impossible Herman
[13:30] Paula Dix: i think they slowly adapted the warp thing to become worm holes to fit into modern theories
[13:30] herman Bergson: This traveling through space and time as shown in StarTrek
[13:30] Vico Rabeni: like teleporting in sl
[13:30] herman Bergson: lol indeed Vico
[13:31] Yakuzza Lethecus: but isn´t that beaming ?
[13:31] Daruma Boa: hi q^^
[13:31] herman Bergson: Hi Qwark :-)
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Helloooooo! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:31] Qwark Allen: Hey!
[13:31] itsme Frederix: Maybe it happens all the time ;) but we do not notice it (so what is the mportance than - thinking back to last week brain vat)
[13:31] Clear Clarity: But they made real teleporting recently. Sure, it was just a nuclear particle, but they teleported it some meters
[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: Hello Qwark :-))
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ♥☺☮☺♥!!!Alarice !!! ♥☺☮☺♥
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ******* Herman *******
[13:31] Qwark Allen: daruma
[13:31] Qwark Allen: and all
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Clear...I have heard about that too....
[13:32] Qwark Allen: i`ve been trapped at a black hole
[13:32] Qwark Allen: and time stoped for me
[13:32] Daruma Boa: lol qwark
[13:32] Daruma Boa: how was it?
[13:32] herman Bergson: but micro physics is a completely different chapter....
[13:32] Daruma Boa: tell us
[13:32] Qwark Allen: very quiet
[13:32] Qwark Allen: eheheheh
[13:32] Paula Dix: lol qwark
[13:32] herman Bergson: Even the concept of time used there is , as I read, not compatible with the concept of time in macro physics
[13:33] Paula Dix: quiet & dark, qwark? :))
[13:33] itsme Frederix: Herman we still might gain someting from it - as micro neurology
[13:33] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:33] Qwark Allen: cause of gravity
[13:33] Vladimir Apparatchik: You should look much older to us now Qwark
[13:33] Qwark Allen: we don`t understand well, what is that
[13:33] Qwark Allen: no
[13:33] Qwark Allen: at this point i was alive
[13:33] Qwark Allen: and all of you death
[13:33] Qwark Allen: eheheheh
[13:33] herman Bergson: No indeed Qwark...the more you read about time the more you know , that we dont know
[13:33] Qwark Allen: it`s the opposite
[13:34] Qwark Allen: the bigger you are from the gravity point (earth) the faster is the time
[13:34] itsme Frederix: Some mentioned that speaking about macro & micro might misslead us to some continous concepts - which not neccesary have to be like that
[13:34] Vladimir Apparatchik: sorry - you are right
[13:34] Qwark Allen: the far you are, the slower time is
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark, but that also has its physical effects
[13:34] Paula Dix: yes, matter "attracts" (slow) time, the same as it does to light, right?
[13:35] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: and in the theory of time traveling the time traveler himself is never affected
[13:35] Vladimir Apparatchik: Do we look older?
[13:35] Qwark Allen: ah
[13:35] Qwark Allen: i see
[13:35] Qwark Allen: we can travel to future
[13:35] Qwark Allen: never to past
[13:35] itsme Frederix: so Herman we created a timeless timer a unmoved mover - back to the old days
[13:35] Paula Dix: yes herman i never got that!!! traveller should get some effect also
[13:36] herman Bergson: Oh..that is a new approach....explain Qwark..plz
[13:36] Qwark Allen: cause of rosentall-einstein bridges
[13:36] Qwark Allen: when we bend space and time , and create one of those bridges, we can travel there
[13:36] herman Bergson: I'll check that Qwark..thnx :-)
[13:36] Qwark Allen: but it`s allways to future
[13:36] Daruma Boa: lol
[13:36] Qwark Allen: never to past
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] Paula Dix: so we can speed time, but not slow it?
[13:37] Qwark Allen: i saw a doc recently with the guy with funny talk
[13:37] Qwark Allen: and wheel chair
[13:37] Qwark Allen: saying exactly this
[13:37] herman Bergson: Stephen Hawkins
[13:37] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:37] itsme Frederix: Quark yes, that is one of the "proves/theories" that implies one-way direction of time and neglects the inversability in other theories
[13:37] Vladimir Apparatchik: Qwark - we can have closed time loops possibly
[13:37] herman Bergson: He once remarked that there never have been timetravelers form the future...so timetraveling isnt probably impossible
[13:37] Qwark Allen: we are at a point in space
[13:38] Vladimir Apparatchik: but we can't go back before the time when we created the time machine that creates the loops
[13:38] Qwark Allen: to go to other and come back to a previous position of earth
[13:38] Qwark Allen: i don`t know how to do it
[13:38] Paula Dix: yes, except the UFOs are time travellers :))))
[13:38] Qwark Allen: that we don`t know
[13:38] herman Bergson: They have to be...
[13:38] Qwark Allen: we know they travel faster then light
[13:38] itsme Frederix: paradoxes again, speculation irrational reasoning, to uch brain jumops
[13:38] Qwark Allen: cause of the use of gravity
[13:38] Vladimir Apparatchik: we'll only get time travellers from the future once we create a timemachine
[13:39] Qwark Allen: they don`t travel to a point
[13:39] herman Bergson: Ok..then we'll wait for that Vladimir :-)
[13:39] Qwark Allen: it`s the point that gets close to them
[13:39] Qwark Allen: by creating a distortion at gravity field
[13:39] Paula Dix: I see, then the need of much energy, to distort space
[13:39] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:40] Qwark Allen: check element 115 at youtube
[13:40] Qwark Allen: and bob lazar
[13:40] Qwark Allen: you`ll understand how it works
[13:40] Paula Dix: ah, ok, from that comes the idea of black holes as worm holes?
[13:40] Qwark Allen: no
[13:40] itsme Frederix: Don't expect any visitors from future, neither alians coming to earth - we made an awwfull time ans place of it - So it exist, these alians are intelligent enough to neglect us.
[13:40] Qwark Allen: black holes are just huge stars that gravity took over of them
[13:41] Qwark Allen: at the end of their lifes
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Itsme ..maybe we are in quarantaine....
[13:41] Paula Dix: but being so massive, arent they natural time travel machines?
[13:41] herman Bergson: for centuries already :-)
[13:41] Vladimir Apparatchik: This is a good link http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/05/14/rules-for-time-travelers/
[13:41] Qwark Allen: the theory says, that at a black hole, there isn`t such a thing, called time
[13:41] herman Bergson: Ah..rules for timetravelers
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes we might need them
[13:41] Qwark Allen: eheheheh
[13:41] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:42] Clear Clarity: There is a movie that says we are some kind of virus infesting Earth... not a bad idea
[13:42] itsme Frederix: one thing for sure - its interessting and challanging way of passing time talking about time
[13:42] Qwark Allen: at the LHC, they will study that question
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Itsme.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: One little sidetrack...
[13:43] Paula Dix: lol itsme
[13:43] herman Bergson: Did you ever think about how far a human can travel in a lifetime...even when he was able to use the speed of light..
[13:43] itsme Frederix: just about 80 years
[13:43] herman Bergson: We wouldnt even reach the edge of our galaxy alive....
[13:43] Qwark Allen: we can travel faster then the speed of light
[13:43] Yakuzza Lethecus: Can we age at the speed of light ?
[13:43] Qwark Allen: but not at speed of light
[13:43] Daruma Boa: and who knows how far??
[13:44] Qwark Allen: no
[13:44] herman Bergson: so the idea is that we are imprisoned in our solar system....
[13:44] itsme Frederix: do we exist at the speed of light
[13:44] Qwark Allen: cause of the mass that we gain by travelling so fast
[13:44] herman Bergson: and then the fantasy of time traveling is so appealing
[13:44] Paula Dix: hows that qwark?? faster than light??
[13:44] Yakuzza Lethecus: we might exist but there is no essence
[13:44] herman Bergson: Ye Qwark..that too....we have to go on a diet as well
[13:44] itsme Frederix: Yep there were some publications
[13:44] Qwark Allen: tachion particle, not discovered yet
[13:44] Qwark Allen: and the bend of space
[13:44] Paula Dix: ok
[13:45] Qwark Allen: tachion it`s 10 times the speed of a foton
[13:45] Clear Clarity: Only way out of Solar System will be movable "worlds"
[13:45] Qwark Allen: so we can travel 10 times faster
[13:45] herman Bergson: Ok....I think we traveled enough time into the future now to get ready for the other side of the time concept...in the next lecture
[13:45] Paula Dix: lol Clear yes, like Rama
[13:45] itsme Frederix: Qwark are you sure that is lineair
[13:45] Qwark Allen: by the regular ways , i mean
[13:46] Qwark Allen: it`s what some cientist say
[13:46] Qwark Allen: and writed about
[13:46] Qwark Allen: i`m only a reader
[13:46] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:46] herman Bergson: So am I and even not a physicist...so this is heavy stuff..:-)
[13:46] Qwark Allen: but i believe we can throught some "worm hole" travel to future
[13:46] Qwark Allen: or to other place in the universe
[13:47] Daruma Boa: my opinion too
[13:47] Paula Dix: i hope so! :))
[13:47] Daruma Boa: perhas we land in sl^^
[13:47] herman Bergson: We wont reach them....were it only because we get killed by all radiation in space
[13:47] Qwark Allen: teleportation, will be possible in a near future
[13:47] Vladimir Apparatchik: Qwark - in Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum mechanics we could go back in time - but not to our universe
[13:47] Qwark Allen: cause of quantic computers
[13:47] itsme Frederix: one of the things is all those mathematical forms are translated/visualized to our perceptions - that makes weird pictures
[13:47] Paula Dix: oh, yes, the multiple universes thing!
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes...parallel worlds....
[13:48] itsme Frederix: The point is Herman about // do they join somewhere
[13:48] Vladimir Apparatchik: So we kill our Grandfather in a different universe with a different me (or not me of course because he/me is then never born)s
[13:49] itsme Frederix: think about euclidian and non-euclidian geometry
[13:49] herman Bergson: I'll think about it , Itsme ^_^
[13:49] Paula Dix: seductive ideas, infinite universes where all is happening to each of us
[13:49] herman Bergson: not sure what....but I will :-)
[13:49] Daruma Boa: perhaps that topic is too big for our brain in the jar^^
[13:49] Paula Dix: lol
[13:49] Qwark Allen: we need first to try to know more about the reality here
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes..all those ideas....
[13:49] Qwark Allen: we don`t know really much about this one
[13:50] itsme Frederix: So before speaking about // universes please define // and the axioms you use
[13:50] Daruma Boa: yes and we cant think so far
[13:50] herman Bergson: And even that appears to be pretty difficult Qwark :-)
[13:50] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:50] herman Bergson: Ok...let's say ..our time is up....
[13:50] Daruma Boa: which time?;-)
[13:50] Qwark Allen: we need a diferent mathmatic and physic to
[13:50] herman Bergson: In the next lexture I will try to bring some order in this time business.
[13:51] Qwark Allen: Hello sir energy phisic will help a lot
[13:51] herman Bergson: Hello Rodney...exactly in time ^_^
[13:51] Daruma Boa: lol
[13:51] Vladimir Apparatchik: Good idea Herman :)
[13:51] Daruma Boa: his time^^^
[13:51] Alarice Beaumont: oh sorry... phone.. gotta go..
[13:51] Qwark Allen: that is why so exciting this experiments at LHC
[13:51] itsme Frederix: we only used // in a space way, what about a universe hidding just 1221 years ahead that // in time?
[13:51] Rodney Handrick: Hey Herman
[13:51] Qwark Allen: loool
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:51] Alarice Beaumont: oh i won't be on thursday :-(
[13:51] herman Bergson: And I'll also add Duration to the list
[13:51] Daruma Boa: bye alarice
[13:51] Daruma Boa: see u next week then
[13:52] Yakuzza Lethecus: i should travel back in time to visit the first 150 lectures i missed
[13:52] Paula Dix: lol
[13:52] itsme Frederix: Aliani maybe a // session will help, or a //Alian
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Yakuzza.....
[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all for taking the time to be here :-)
[13:53] Paula Dix: very interesting! :))
[13:53] itsme Frederix: well it was just // time, got plenty of that
[13:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: thx again herman
[13:53] herman Bergson: Me too Itsme..:-)
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ******* Herman *******
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ty
[13:53] Qwark Allen: got to go to
[13:53] Qwark Allen: OMG
[13:53] Clear Clarity: Thank you Herman
[13:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: so lets see how happy i can still be through philosophy on thothica
[13:53] Qwark Allen: darn time
[13:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: bye!
[13:53] Qwark Allen: always against us
[13:53] herman Bergson: Bye Qwark give my regards to Gemma ^_^
[13:53] Vico Rabeni: thank you
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ok
[13:53] Qwark Allen: i will
[13:53] Qwark Allen: :-)))
[13:53] itsme Frederix: OKE was fun, looking forward to the next lecture prof.
[13:54] Daruma Boa: i will go too
[13:54] Yakuzza Lethecus: thursday right ?
[13:54] Paula Dix: Yakuzza, whats going on on Thothica?
[13:54] Daruma Boa: see u thursday.
[13:54] Jangle McElroy: Thanks. I look forward ot reading the lecture, sorry I got calld away. Does that mean I was in 2 places within the same time event?
[13:54] herman Bergson: Thnx Itsme...I'll work on it..
[13:54] Daruma Boa: bye and thank u herman
[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes Jangle ..you were multitasking in parallel worlds :-)
[13:54] Paula Dix: lol
[13:54] Jangle McElroy: I hope one of me got to eat.
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: Its if does philosophy make u happy or so
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: ,,Does philosophy make ur happ"
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: something like that
[13:55] Jangle McElroy: :)
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
[13:55] herman Bergson: At least your mind was fed Jangle
[13:55] Clear Clarity: Going... goodbye everybody
[13:55] Jangle McElroy: It will be nourished :)
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: it started together with this class :(
[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Clear
But more meaningfull is the fact that it stimulates us the think about the phenomenon time itself.
Because, if you have a moment, the more I studied on the concept of time, the more I discovered that there doesnt exist at all something that can be called time.
Oh yes, there is time, no doubt about that, however, nobody knows what it is, which means...we have a lot of theories.
Take the idea of time traveling. When you google on that, you absolutely need the capability of time traveling, if you want to check out all the hits, which I got: 264.000.000.
When we want to talk about time traveling we already have to begin with a big assumption. We must assume, that time is part of the fundamental structure of the universe, a dimension in which events occur in sequence.
Time travel, in this view, becomes a possibility as other "times" persist like frames of a film strip, spread out across the time line.
Sir Isaac Newton subscribed to this realist view. He was forced to assume that time is some absolute, an infinite to protect the idea of an eternal God.
So we commonly think of time as a stream that flows or as a sea over which we advance. If time flows past us or if we advance through time, this would be a motion with respect to some hypertime.
For motion in space is motion with respect to time, and motion of time or in time could hardly be a motion in time with respect to time.
If motion in space is meters per second, at what speed is the flow of time? Seconds per what? Moreover, if passage is of the essence of time, it is presumably the essence of hypertime, too, which would lead one to postulate a hyper-hypertime and so on ad infinitum.
The idea of time as passing is connected with the idea of events changing from future to past. We think of events as approaching us from the future, whereupon they are momentarily caught in the spotlight of the present and then recede into the past.
This is so closely related to our feeling that all our political or economical predictions are events that lie waiting in the future and will just come to us and move into the past.
In such a concept of time time traveling would be possible, I guess. However, we need to keep a sharp eye on the distinction of logical and physical possibility, for we will get confused by all kinds of paradoxes.
A classic one: I travel back in time and kill the father of my father, my grandfather. So my father will never be born. And consequently neither will I, though i am here in the past.
The interesting thing here is, that this only is a logical paradox, for what strikes me in such stories is that the timetraveler himself is left out of the picture completely as well as the concept of physical being.
I mean, when I travel back in time am I , myself, not affected physically by this process or do I have to assume that it is a completely immaterial process?
In other words, if we talk about a real physical proces what is the material substance of the time traveler, if you accept that all material processes are causal processes in time?
Even more complicated it becomes when we suppose that we can travel to the future. First of all this future must be a realized reality. It has to be "there" ....somehow, somewhere.
Suppose I am not too audacious and just jump 10 years into the future. There I see, how I die in a carcrash. That IS my future?
Whatever I do when I return to my own moment of time, I will end up in that carcrash. You mean that life is just a detemistic chain of cause and effect....no free will?
I have to stop....I need some more time. So the next lecture will be on time and time traveling too, if you do't mind....Too many unresolved questions left.
The Discussion
[13:20] itsme Frederix: mr. Bergson I missed the concept of duration
[13:20] herman Bergson: As I said..I had to stop....this is just the part that assumes that time is some kind of flow...stream
[13:21] Vico Rabeni: yes it is - but only in one direction
[13:21] Vladimir Apparatchik: Herman - I think your problem here is that you are thinking in time "jumps", travelling in time would be just like travelling in space I think
[13:21] herman Bergson: But only as a metaphor Vico
[13:21] itsme Frederix: Your thesis about hypertime is not reflecting the space-time continuum in modern relativity -
[13:22] Vladimir Apparatchik: Yes itsme
[13:22] herman Bergson: No Itsme as I said....this is more the Newtonian time concept
[13:22] Clear Clarity: I´ve read a book that says past is frozen, fixed, immobile, so there is no energy there. Because of that, we can't travel there
[13:22] itsme Frederix: Oke, but U used it nicely to tell some nice paradoxes
[13:23] herman Bergson: That, Clear , suggests that the past has some independent reality
[13:24] itsme Frederix: Clear in a way the same about the future ?!
[13:24] herman Bergson: And especially the ontological status of what we call past and future are an issue here
[13:24] herman Bergson: If they really have an ontological status....but the Myth of passage (through time) suggests it
[13:24] Clear Clarity: I guess so. I think the guy thinks of past as some imaginary thing, since if it exists, has mass, then it has energy
[13:25] herman Bergson: Ok....that is Einstein :-)
[13:25] Clear Clarity: (: yes
[13:25] itsme Frederix: Do we stick to Newtonian time (whatever it is) or can we add some more "advanced" concepts & I still miss "duree"
[13:25] Vladimir Apparatchik: And Einstein implies that both past and present and future all exist together
[13:26] Paula Dix: yes ive read somewhere time travel is possible according to einstein
[13:26] herman Bergson: If you dont mind Itsme I'll save that for the next lecture...
[13:26] herman Bergson: Acording to Newton time was some absolute...and I know since 1915 we have a different idea about that
[13:27] itsme Frederix: Oke, if we accept space-time continuum, and visualize (riemann space) time travel is nothing special - but takes some energy
[13:27] Paula Dix: a lot of energy?? :)
[13:27] herman Bergson: I think time travel as presented in literature and movies is a fiction
[13:28] itsme Frederix: all physical formula's do accept "negative" time (except entropy law thermo dynamics?)
[13:28] herman Bergson: Most interesting in this is StarTrek and space travel
[13:28] Vladimir Apparatchik: Not sure quantum mechanics does itsme
[13:29] Paula Dix: oh yes the worm holes!
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes..things like that..
[13:29] itsme Frederix: The thing in startrack is that travel in time means also space distortion/displacement! according to the rules I guess
[13:29] Paula Dix: yes, warp drive
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well...I guess an amazing impossibility
[13:30] herman Bergson: But so attractive
[13:30] Daruma Boa: perhaps not^
[13:30] itsme Frederix: What is impossible Herman
[13:30] Paula Dix: i think they slowly adapted the warp thing to become worm holes to fit into modern theories
[13:30] herman Bergson: This traveling through space and time as shown in StarTrek
[13:30] Vico Rabeni: like teleporting in sl
[13:30] herman Bergson: lol indeed Vico
[13:31] Yakuzza Lethecus: but isn´t that beaming ?
[13:31] Daruma Boa: hi q^^
[13:31] herman Bergson: Hi Qwark :-)
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Helloooooo! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:31] Qwark Allen: Hey!
[13:31] itsme Frederix: Maybe it happens all the time ;) but we do not notice it (so what is the mportance than - thinking back to last week brain vat)
[13:31] Clear Clarity: But they made real teleporting recently. Sure, it was just a nuclear particle, but they teleported it some meters
[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: Hello Qwark :-))
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ♥☺☮☺♥!!!Alarice !!! ♥☺☮☺♥
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ******* Herman *******
[13:31] Qwark Allen: daruma
[13:31] Qwark Allen: and all
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Clear...I have heard about that too....
[13:32] Qwark Allen: i`ve been trapped at a black hole
[13:32] Qwark Allen: and time stoped for me
[13:32] Daruma Boa: lol qwark
[13:32] Daruma Boa: how was it?
[13:32] herman Bergson: but micro physics is a completely different chapter....
[13:32] Daruma Boa: tell us
[13:32] Qwark Allen: very quiet
[13:32] Qwark Allen: eheheheh
[13:32] Paula Dix: lol qwark
[13:32] herman Bergson: Even the concept of time used there is , as I read, not compatible with the concept of time in macro physics
[13:33] Paula Dix: quiet & dark, qwark? :))
[13:33] itsme Frederix: Herman we still might gain someting from it - as micro neurology
[13:33] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:33] Qwark Allen: cause of gravity
[13:33] Vladimir Apparatchik: You should look much older to us now Qwark
[13:33] Qwark Allen: we don`t understand well, what is that
[13:33] Qwark Allen: no
[13:33] Qwark Allen: at this point i was alive
[13:33] Qwark Allen: and all of you death
[13:33] Qwark Allen: eheheheh
[13:33] herman Bergson: No indeed Qwark...the more you read about time the more you know , that we dont know
[13:33] Qwark Allen: it`s the opposite
[13:34] Qwark Allen: the bigger you are from the gravity point (earth) the faster is the time
[13:34] itsme Frederix: Some mentioned that speaking about macro & micro might misslead us to some continous concepts - which not neccesary have to be like that
[13:34] Vladimir Apparatchik: sorry - you are right
[13:34] Qwark Allen: the far you are, the slower time is
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark, but that also has its physical effects
[13:34] Paula Dix: yes, matter "attracts" (slow) time, the same as it does to light, right?
[13:35] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: and in the theory of time traveling the time traveler himself is never affected
[13:35] Vladimir Apparatchik: Do we look older?
[13:35] Qwark Allen: ah
[13:35] Qwark Allen: i see
[13:35] Qwark Allen: we can travel to future
[13:35] Qwark Allen: never to past
[13:35] itsme Frederix: so Herman we created a timeless timer a unmoved mover - back to the old days
[13:35] Paula Dix: yes herman i never got that!!! traveller should get some effect also
[13:36] herman Bergson: Oh..that is a new approach....explain Qwark..plz
[13:36] Qwark Allen: cause of rosentall-einstein bridges
[13:36] Qwark Allen: when we bend space and time , and create one of those bridges, we can travel there
[13:36] herman Bergson: I'll check that Qwark..thnx :-)
[13:36] Qwark Allen: but it`s allways to future
[13:36] Daruma Boa: lol
[13:36] Qwark Allen: never to past
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] Paula Dix: so we can speed time, but not slow it?
[13:37] Qwark Allen: i saw a doc recently with the guy with funny talk
[13:37] Qwark Allen: and wheel chair
[13:37] Qwark Allen: saying exactly this
[13:37] herman Bergson: Stephen Hawkins
[13:37] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:37] itsme Frederix: Quark yes, that is one of the "proves/theories" that implies one-way direction of time and neglects the inversability in other theories
[13:37] Vladimir Apparatchik: Qwark - we can have closed time loops possibly
[13:37] herman Bergson: He once remarked that there never have been timetravelers form the future...so timetraveling isnt probably impossible
[13:37] Qwark Allen: we are at a point in space
[13:38] Vladimir Apparatchik: but we can't go back before the time when we created the time machine that creates the loops
[13:38] Qwark Allen: to go to other and come back to a previous position of earth
[13:38] Qwark Allen: i don`t know how to do it
[13:38] Paula Dix: yes, except the UFOs are time travellers :))))
[13:38] Qwark Allen: that we don`t know
[13:38] herman Bergson: They have to be...
[13:38] Qwark Allen: we know they travel faster then light
[13:38] itsme Frederix: paradoxes again, speculation irrational reasoning, to uch brain jumops
[13:38] Qwark Allen: cause of the use of gravity
[13:38] Vladimir Apparatchik: we'll only get time travellers from the future once we create a timemachine
[13:39] Qwark Allen: they don`t travel to a point
[13:39] herman Bergson: Ok..then we'll wait for that Vladimir :-)
[13:39] Qwark Allen: it`s the point that gets close to them
[13:39] Qwark Allen: by creating a distortion at gravity field
[13:39] Paula Dix: I see, then the need of much energy, to distort space
[13:39] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:40] Qwark Allen: check element 115 at youtube
[13:40] Qwark Allen: and bob lazar
[13:40] Qwark Allen: you`ll understand how it works
[13:40] Paula Dix: ah, ok, from that comes the idea of black holes as worm holes?
[13:40] Qwark Allen: no
[13:40] itsme Frederix: Don't expect any visitors from future, neither alians coming to earth - we made an awwfull time ans place of it - So it exist, these alians are intelligent enough to neglect us.
[13:40] Qwark Allen: black holes are just huge stars that gravity took over of them
[13:41] Qwark Allen: at the end of their lifes
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Itsme ..maybe we are in quarantaine....
[13:41] Paula Dix: but being so massive, arent they natural time travel machines?
[13:41] herman Bergson: for centuries already :-)
[13:41] Vladimir Apparatchik: This is a good link http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2009/05/14/rules-for-time-travelers/
[13:41] Qwark Allen: the theory says, that at a black hole, there isn`t such a thing, called time
[13:41] herman Bergson: Ah..rules for timetravelers
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes we might need them
[13:41] Qwark Allen: eheheheh
[13:41] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:42] Clear Clarity: There is a movie that says we are some kind of virus infesting Earth... not a bad idea
[13:42] itsme Frederix: one thing for sure - its interessting and challanging way of passing time talking about time
[13:42] Qwark Allen: at the LHC, they will study that question
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Itsme.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: One little sidetrack...
[13:43] Paula Dix: lol itsme
[13:43] herman Bergson: Did you ever think about how far a human can travel in a lifetime...even when he was able to use the speed of light..
[13:43] itsme Frederix: just about 80 years
[13:43] herman Bergson: We wouldnt even reach the edge of our galaxy alive....
[13:43] Qwark Allen: we can travel faster then the speed of light
[13:43] Yakuzza Lethecus: Can we age at the speed of light ?
[13:43] Qwark Allen: but not at speed of light
[13:43] Daruma Boa: and who knows how far??
[13:44] Qwark Allen: no
[13:44] herman Bergson: so the idea is that we are imprisoned in our solar system....
[13:44] itsme Frederix: do we exist at the speed of light
[13:44] Qwark Allen: cause of the mass that we gain by travelling so fast
[13:44] herman Bergson: and then the fantasy of time traveling is so appealing
[13:44] Paula Dix: hows that qwark?? faster than light??
[13:44] Yakuzza Lethecus: we might exist but there is no essence
[13:44] herman Bergson: Ye Qwark..that too....we have to go on a diet as well
[13:44] itsme Frederix: Yep there were some publications
[13:44] Qwark Allen: tachion particle, not discovered yet
[13:44] Qwark Allen: and the bend of space
[13:44] Paula Dix: ok
[13:45] Qwark Allen: tachion it`s 10 times the speed of a foton
[13:45] Clear Clarity: Only way out of Solar System will be movable "worlds"
[13:45] Qwark Allen: so we can travel 10 times faster
[13:45] herman Bergson: Ok....I think we traveled enough time into the future now to get ready for the other side of the time concept...in the next lecture
[13:45] Paula Dix: lol Clear yes, like Rama
[13:45] itsme Frederix: Qwark are you sure that is lineair
[13:45] Qwark Allen: by the regular ways , i mean
[13:46] Qwark Allen: it`s what some cientist say
[13:46] Qwark Allen: and writed about
[13:46] Qwark Allen: i`m only a reader
[13:46] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:46] herman Bergson: So am I and even not a physicist...so this is heavy stuff..:-)
[13:46] Qwark Allen: but i believe we can throught some "worm hole" travel to future
[13:46] Qwark Allen: or to other place in the universe
[13:47] Daruma Boa: my opinion too
[13:47] Paula Dix: i hope so! :))
[13:47] Daruma Boa: perhas we land in sl^^
[13:47] herman Bergson: We wont reach them....were it only because we get killed by all radiation in space
[13:47] Qwark Allen: teleportation, will be possible in a near future
[13:47] Vladimir Apparatchik: Qwark - in Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum mechanics we could go back in time - but not to our universe
[13:47] Qwark Allen: cause of quantic computers
[13:47] itsme Frederix: one of the things is all those mathematical forms are translated/visualized to our perceptions - that makes weird pictures
[13:47] Paula Dix: oh, yes, the multiple universes thing!
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes...parallel worlds....
[13:48] itsme Frederix: The point is Herman about // do they join somewhere
[13:48] Vladimir Apparatchik: So we kill our Grandfather in a different universe with a different me (or not me of course because he/me is then never born)s
[13:49] itsme Frederix: think about euclidian and non-euclidian geometry
[13:49] herman Bergson: I'll think about it , Itsme ^_^
[13:49] Paula Dix: seductive ideas, infinite universes where all is happening to each of us
[13:49] herman Bergson: not sure what....but I will :-)
[13:49] Daruma Boa: perhaps that topic is too big for our brain in the jar^^
[13:49] Paula Dix: lol
[13:49] Qwark Allen: we need first to try to know more about the reality here
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes..all those ideas....
[13:49] Qwark Allen: we don`t know really much about this one
[13:50] itsme Frederix: So before speaking about // universes please define // and the axioms you use
[13:50] Daruma Boa: yes and we cant think so far
[13:50] herman Bergson: And even that appears to be pretty difficult Qwark :-)
[13:50] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:50] herman Bergson: Ok...let's say ..our time is up....
[13:50] Daruma Boa: which time?;-)
[13:50] Qwark Allen: we need a diferent mathmatic and physic to
[13:50] herman Bergson: In the next lexture I will try to bring some order in this time business.
[13:51] Qwark Allen: Hello sir energy phisic will help a lot
[13:51] herman Bergson: Hello Rodney...exactly in time ^_^
[13:51] Daruma Boa: lol
[13:51] Vladimir Apparatchik: Good idea Herman :)
[13:51] Daruma Boa: his time^^^
[13:51] Alarice Beaumont: oh sorry... phone.. gotta go..
[13:51] Qwark Allen: that is why so exciting this experiments at LHC
[13:51] itsme Frederix: we only used // in a space way, what about a universe hidding just 1221 years ahead that // in time?
[13:51] Rodney Handrick: Hey Herman
[13:51] Qwark Allen: loool
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:51] Alarice Beaumont: oh i won't be on thursday :-(
[13:51] herman Bergson: And I'll also add Duration to the list
[13:51] Daruma Boa: bye alarice
[13:51] Daruma Boa: see u next week then
[13:52] Yakuzza Lethecus: i should travel back in time to visit the first 150 lectures i missed
[13:52] Paula Dix: lol
[13:52] itsme Frederix: Aliani maybe a // session will help, or a //Alian
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Yakuzza.....
[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all for taking the time to be here :-)
[13:53] Paula Dix: very interesting! :))
[13:53] itsme Frederix: well it was just // time, got plenty of that
[13:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: thx again herman
[13:53] herman Bergson: Me too Itsme..:-)
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ******* Herman *******
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ty
[13:53] Qwark Allen: got to go to
[13:53] Qwark Allen: OMG
[13:53] Clear Clarity: Thank you Herman
[13:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: so lets see how happy i can still be through philosophy on thothica
[13:53] Qwark Allen: darn time
[13:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: bye!
[13:53] Qwark Allen: always against us
[13:53] herman Bergson: Bye Qwark give my regards to Gemma ^_^
[13:53] Vico Rabeni: thank you
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ok
[13:53] Qwark Allen: i will
[13:53] Qwark Allen: :-)))
[13:53] itsme Frederix: OKE was fun, looking forward to the next lecture prof.
[13:54] Daruma Boa: i will go too
[13:54] Yakuzza Lethecus: thursday right ?
[13:54] Paula Dix: Yakuzza, whats going on on Thothica?
[13:54] Daruma Boa: see u thursday.
[13:54] Jangle McElroy: Thanks. I look forward ot reading the lecture, sorry I got calld away. Does that mean I was in 2 places within the same time event?
[13:54] herman Bergson: Thnx Itsme...I'll work on it..
[13:54] Daruma Boa: bye and thank u herman
[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes Jangle ..you were multitasking in parallel worlds :-)
[13:54] Paula Dix: lol
[13:54] Jangle McElroy: I hope one of me got to eat.
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: Its if does philosophy make u happy or so
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: ,,Does philosophy make ur happ"
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: something like that
[13:55] Jangle McElroy: :)
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
[13:55] herman Bergson: At least your mind was fed Jangle
[13:55] Clear Clarity: Going... goodbye everybody
[13:55] Jangle McElroy: It will be nourished :)
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus: it started together with this class :(
[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Clear
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