416: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: ethical boundaries

We live in a time where almost everything is for sale or can be sold. In the past three decades, markets - and market values ​​- began to dominate our lives like never before.

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It was not a conscious choice to end up in this situation. It seems like it just has happened to us. After the end of the Cold War the free market and the market-theory gained an unprecedented prestige.

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No other method of the organization of production and distribution of goods was so successful in generating wealth and prosperity. 

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More and more countries around the world accepted the mechanism of the market, but there happened also something else. 

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Market values ​​got an increasingly important role in society.   Economics was dominated everything. Human beings became just numbers in mathematical equations.

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The logic of buying and selling did no longer apply only to material goods, but also began to control other areas of life. It is about time we ask ourselves if we want to live this way.

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The years leading  to the financial crisis of 2008 were a turbulent era. The belief in the free market and deregulation reigned supremely: it was the time of the triumph of the market. 

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That era began in the early 1980s, when Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher proclaimed that the free market, and not the government, was the key to prosperity and freedom. 

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That trend continued with a market-friendly liberalism of Bill Clinton and Tony Blair, who despite minor adjustments confirmed the belief that the free market was the most important  means to improve general welfare.

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As I already have expressed in previous lectures, today we have serious doubts about this belief. The financial crisis has not only shown that it is not as efficient in spreading risks as it claims to be.

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But we also have gotten a strong feeling that what we call "the financial markets" and the banks have drifted away from ethics and that we have to do something about that.

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Some say that it is general greed, which is the weak spot of the financial world. Just keep the greedy bankers and speculators in check and our problems will be solved.

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This is however only a part of the diagnosis. Sure, greed plays an important role in this crisis, but there is more. The increase of greed in the past 30 years is not the worst thing, that has happened.

The most fatal change that has taken place is, that the market and market-values have extended into areas of our life, where they don't belong.

Thence we have to do more than re-educate bankers and teach them not to be too greedy and teach them responsibility towards society.

We need a serious discussion about the ethical boundaries of the free market. The free market has got in its grip areas of our life which were formerly dominated by not-commercial values.

These areas are education, health care, hospitals, social housing (houses to rent by those who can not afford to buy a house), public security, even our body and matters of life and death. If you want you even can "buy" a child.

But why should we care, that everything can be bought? Just name the price. I can mention two reasons. One is inequality and the second is corruption.

Inequality is easily understood. If everything can or has to be bought, it means, that enjoying participation in all benefits of a society is mainly achieved by having money. No money? Bad luck for you…sorry! Or should we think differently here?

The second reason is maybe harder to understand, but it means that the belief in the benefits of the free market slowly corrupts human values, which are above selling and buying.

Just one example. In the next lectures we'll dig deeper into this aspect. How about selling your organs? For instance a kidney? You've got two, haven't you? Just think about this. We'll discuss this matter extensively in future lectures.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): People do sell organs already.

[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): wow. There's a lot there, Professor

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is under discussion in some circles

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): how we get the bankers to think anything but money i dont know

[13:22] herman Bergson: The main point is that the discussion should not only be about greed...

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or the investment bankers especially

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes thank you Prof Herman !

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are in business to only make money for their inverstors

[13:23] herman Bergson: What is worse is that certain human values are suddenly translated into dollars....

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma..but they always have been....

[13:23] herman Bergson: and nobody complained....

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Some how we need to focus more on the well being of the planet and all of its species.

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the usurers of the middle ages

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: we all have to change our minds, we are not only victims we are a part of this system sometimes

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i am

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i invest

[13:24] herman Bergson: It went wrong when all financial dealings were transferred to computerscreen....graphics and numbers on screens....

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): I invest, and consume hugely.

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): I guess that computers are to blame?

[13:25] herman Bergson: now you don't rip off someone...now you just push buttons and make a big profit...

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): no, that's just a rationalization

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): a monetary system and money are just tools

[13:25] herman Bergson: no...not the computers....but the fact that people lost the view that they were dealing with other people..not just with amounts

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): a shortcut to bartering

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes...just tools...

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think that's being willfully blind

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): The other aspect is that a large number of people are poor, and don't have the access to the free markets - no money.

[13:26] herman Bergson: indeed Debbie...that is the issue of equality...

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: and some are lazy

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): And their lives are largely ignored by the rich, or exploited as cheap labour

[13:26] herman Bergson: as I saisd earlier...

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its just that I live amongst it.

[13:27] Velvet (velvet.braham): I see. We are all equal in some ways, our right to medical care, for instance.

[13:27] herman Bergson: in 1850 the rich helped the poor to improve their living conditions through charity etc...

[13:27] herman Bergson: but that was a matter of self interest...

[13:27] Velvet (velvet.braham): but there us aways an inequality in standard of living

[13:28] herman Bergson: it was important to keep the workers healthy....who worked at their factories...

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): because the plague didn't stop at the front door - as you said so elloquently

[13:28] herman Bergson: or as servants in their homes....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Indeed Debbie...:-))

[13:28] herman Bergson: But the rich now live in their own enclaves...

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): again, willful blindness

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): They moved the front door to a haven.

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): they just choose not to see

[13:29] herman Bergson: they can move away from any epidemic ...or what else

[13:29] herman Bergson: yes..

[13:29] herman Bergson: But the other thing is human values..

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Now, many of the people living in the poor areas are not even connected to the net.

[13:30] herman Bergson: In my last example I implicitly refered to the integrity of the human body...

[13:30] herman Bergson: They even first need a computer Debbie...which they can not afford

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): They get old ones for free - they are dumped here. but then no money for connection

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): where I am you can get free access in libraries

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: I am sorry, i must go, TC everybody!

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): not ideal, but it's there

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lizzy

[13:31] herman Bergson: there goes our fairy :-(

[13:32] herman Bergson: sihs...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] herman Bergson: sighs

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): rodney

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ☆*¨¨*:•.•:*¨* hallo hello hi holla *¨¨*:•.•:*¨*☆

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): the glitter fades slowly as she leaves....

[13:32] herman Bergson: RODNEY! ^_^

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): late as usual

[13:32] Rodney Handrick: Hi everyone

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hi Rodney.

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hopeyou are reading the blog

[13:32] herman Bergson: A man of standards...:-)

[13:32] Rodney Handrick: yes

[13:33] herman Bergson: in the next lectures I'll show you how the free market idea has penetrated areas where it not should be...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Here in the Netherlands we had really one of the most stupid actions in that matter

[13:34] herman Bergson: We have a shortage of dentists.....

[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we can probably come up with a few

[13:34] Rodney Handrick: agreed gemma

[13:34] herman Bergson: so the market situation is....High demand and low supply....

[13:35] herman Bergson: in theory this means that when you make the pricing free the prices go up....

[13:35] herman Bergson: Every body said so.... yet the government insisted on an experiment with free pricing for dentists....

[13:36] Rodney Handrick: what do you mean by free pricing?

[13:36] herman Bergson: its argument was that it would stimulate competition and thus cause lower prices...

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): unregulated?

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!

[13:36] herman Bergson: By that I mean that every dentist is free to set the rates for his work

[13:37] Rodney Handrick: got it

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): ok

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): here in the US I hear from some people that too much regulation has had a negative effect on their health care

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes ....deregulation....that was the beauty of the idea....a smaller government.....

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:37] Rodney Handrick: right

[13:37] herman Bergson: Result....

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is riciduleous

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is not enough regulation

[13:38] herman Bergson: in no time a visit to the dentist was 10% more expensive than before the deregulation....

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): has been getting less in the last decades

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): my mother complains that she can't have the tests she should have

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): I can't say for sure that's the case

[13:38] Rodney Handrick: there have to be standards

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well..at least this "experiment" was really a failure and ridiculous too....

[13:39] herman Bergson: so now they immediately cancelled it....

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): good deal

[13:39] herman Bergson: back to fixed prices set by the government

[13:40] Rodney Handrick: fixed prices by the government? socialism

[13:40] herman Bergson: In future lectures I have plenty of such nice examples for you....^_^

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yep. good old caring for the citizens ;)

[13:40] herman Bergson: No Rodney...not socialism....basic fairness....

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): many of the best health programs in europe are solistic

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): socialistic but not socialism'

[13:40] herman Bergson: health is a social good for every citizen...rich or poor....

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Some aspects of socialism are desirable

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and they pay = more taxes

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): which we resent so here

[13:41] Rodney Handrick: basic fairness...that's subjective

[13:41] herman Bergson: The dentists are education with the people's tax money....

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right to life

[13:41] herman Bergson: so everybody has an equal right to dental care for instance....poor and rich...

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): Lets not forget the purchasing power graph.

[13:42] Rodney Handrick: the peoples tax money...now that's different because the taxpayer made an investment

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): if they don't we end up paying anyway

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:42] herman Bergson: INthe Netherlands university education (and other) is financed by the government...

[13:42] herman Bergson: as a student you hardly pay for it...which is quite different form the US (still.....)

[13:42] Rodney Handrick: the question is roi for the investors (taxpayers)

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): whew. tell me about it!

[13:43] herman Bergson: So health care is not a matter of the free market....

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): ROI is the wrong measure around here Rodney. Come to lectures ;)

[13:43] herman Bergson: health is a social good...

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): here tho they want it privatized

[13:44] herman Bergson: what is ROl?

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Return on investment

[13:44] Rodney Handrick: roi - return on investment

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma, that is what they are doing with hospitals in the Netherlands too now...

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): rodney tries ... for years he has been a member

[13:44] herman Bergson: Ahhh...

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): sneaks in at work

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol. cool.

[13:45] herman Bergson: funny ..my av starts typing....

[13:45] herman Bergson: wonder what he has to say ?! ^_^

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:46] Rodney Handrick: ai - artificial intelligence

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well... unless you still have an urgent question or remark, I'd like to thank you for you interest and participation

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope you have more next week

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): send more notices

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you, Professor

[13:46] Rodney Handrick: thanks...that was a good topic

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....More next Tuesday....for you in the blog asap

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Herman. Fine lecture.

[13:47] herman Bergson: Thank you Debbie

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): ;) see you next week

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): byee

[13:47] herman Bergson: Bye Debbie

[13:48] herman Bergson: Hello Osiris..didn't see you come in :-)

[13:49] Osiris Mubble: hello

[13:49] herman Bergson: smiles

415: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: the failing free market

In the discussion of my previous lecture I told you, that I am not the bright guy who invents all these ideas and arguments against neo-liberalism.

As I told you, look on the internet, check the literature, read your newspaper. Everywhere you find the growing insight, that we are definitely on the wrong track when pursuing the apparent blessings of the free market.

As I said….just read your newspaper. Therefor, as an example, I'd like to quote for you alter, written by some Dutchman and send to a national newspaper which published it. I read it as a confirmation of the growing insight, that things have to be changed.

-quote-

"More and more voices advocating reduction of privatization and of its product: the free market. The theory does not work. Healthcare is likely to be unmanageable and priceless. Most doctors who just want to be a doctor, want to get rid of the market.

Education groans under regulations; institutions are uncontrollable and chaotic mammoth organizations. Pupils and students become completely lost and often go their own way. 

The remnant of the unsurpassed PTT (Dutch postal Services, hB), TNT, threatening to become  unmanageable due to the repeated departure of directors . Housing .., no, now I hold on.

The Liberal toys just do not work for these organizations and services. Hopefully that penetrates slowly through in The Hague (seat of the Dutch parliament, hB) 

and hopefully a new government will take appropriate measures to stop this misbegotten privatization and its product, the free market,  as much as possible and to reverse with reason."

Henk Schraa, Heemskerk (The name of the author, just an ordinary concerned Dutch citizen). Tomorrow will be a significant day in Dutch politics. We may vote.

The campaigns are on and the situation is the clearest proof of what is happening in this world. The dutch situation is thus: the dutch parliament is composed of about 12 different parties. A government is always a coalition.

At this moment there are two parties in the lead for becoming the biggest party. On the one hand the liberal party, strong advocates for privatization and unlimited economic growth and on the other hand a socialist party, pleading for less free market and a more fair sharing of the national wealth.

At this moment the polls show a tie between the two. Nobody dares to predict anymore who will be the biggest party tomorrow evening at midnight.

And this simple political fact about a small country I interpret in the same way as I interpret the on coming presidential elections in the US. 

Tho there are a lot of powers and influences beyond our democratic control, voters are not stupid. They too see what is going on in the world, that we have to choose between greed or sharing.

Before the 80s the stock exchange was a place where people interacted with people. After work you could meet the guy, who, for instance, ripped you off that day and you could at least have a discussion about fair trade, 

but economic theory developed in the wrong direction after the war, because the mathematicians took power there. Economics thus has become a value-free trade in which moral judgments no longer count, but only numbers, put in a mathematical formula. 

In other words, the pseudo-science claims thanks to the models of Nobel Prize Winners as Paul Samuelson and Black & Scholes, such as the option price theory and market efficiency theory, to have become a real science.

In this environment, the beast in man got loose. The goal is no longer to be the best bank for the customer, but to be  the largest and most profitable one so that, thanks to super bonuses bankers could enrich themselves.

Economics is not a science like physics. In fact it is human behavior and thence a part of psychology end thence a part of philosophy, which can show you that there first is ethics and then there is economics.

The Discussion

[13:33] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:33] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: thank you herman

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank YOU Herman.

[13:33] Qwark Allen: first thing i have to say, that it doesn't matter what your vote will be

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tomorrow we can vote..I hope that the politicians do what they promise us

[13:33] Qwark Allen: there is no option in the parties you have to choose off

[13:33] herman Bergson: I disagree (to some extend) Qwark ^_^

[13:33] Qwark Allen: its a illusion

[13:34] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

[13:34] herman Bergson: No that is not true....

[13:34] Qwark Allen: ☆ ->~*~Partyyyyyyyyyy!!!!~*~ <- ☆

[13:34] Qwark Allen: no matter the that wins

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes Qwark, I find that the pre election promises evaporate the day after.

[13:34] Qwark Allen: the politic resultant of the election will be the same

[13:34] herman Bergson: We voted for better health care and we HAVE better health care than for instance the US,

[13:34] Qwark Allen: ☆ ->~*~Partyyyyyyyyyy!!!!~*~ <- ☆

[13:34] Qwark Allen: A or B, when elected follow the same rules

[13:34] Qwark Allen: the market rule

[13:34] herman Bergson: To some extend I agree with you Qwark....

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think we HAD better healthcare before Herman

[13:35] herman Bergson: Here in the netherlands they complained about the fact of 6 elections in 10 years...

[13:35] Qwark Allen: you are blind if you think the party B, with the pre election view of sharing will do any different then the A, with neoliberal view

[13:35] Qwark Allen: they are sponsored by the same ones

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, you guys at least have health care. here public health care sucks....

[13:35] herman Bergson: average lifetime of a government is 2 years....

[13:36] Kime Babenco: Voting is a duty or a right there? I prefer it as a duty

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yet...the Netherlands has become one of the richest countries in the world...

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a right Kime

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its a right here.

[13:36] Qwark Allen: one sponsor both parties, so it doesn't matter who wins, the "one" that sponsored both for elections, is the one that wins

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes it is a right....

[13:36] Kime Babenco: It's a duty here (right between 18 and 21, and above 55)

[13:36] Qwark Allen: do you think any of them will go agains`t the sponsor?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well Qwark what shocked me was what our prime minister said......

[13:37] herman Bergson: he said in some debate "We have to listen to the financial markets..."

[13:37] Qwark Allen: eheheh see what i mean

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes I know what you mean..... ^_^

[13:37] Qwark Allen: the ones that rule the markets at the moment, are the ones in control of any government you choose

[13:37] Kime Babenco: Really ? Markets talk there?

[13:38] Qwark Allen: there is not really a option there

[13:38] herman Bergson: And these financial markets are a threat to democracy

[13:38] Qwark Allen: i`m still with rand vision

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Kime…they even have a big mouth....

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I hope he will be gone by tomorrow

[13:38] Qwark Allen: separete government for economy, and regulate the market

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: in Gemany every big company has a lobby in berlin

[13:38] Qwark Allen: market

[13:38] Kime Babenco: That's their goal Herman...

[13:39] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example.......

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy....

[13:39] Qwark Allen: markets now, are not regulated and any government is just corrupt to them

[13:39] Qwark Allen: any governnent

[13:39] herman Bergson: The government proposes a plan...say...something about taxes on profits...

[13:39] Qwark Allen: taxes for us, profits for them

[13:39] herman Bergson: then the prime minister gets a phone call from a big CEO of a multinational....

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: true Qwark

[13:40] herman Bergson: He says....if you do that we move our main office and factory abroad.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: thousands of jobs.....

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so only the poor among us have to pay higher taxes

[13:40] Qwark Allen: because this lobbies have enslaved all countries

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): and millions of taxes

[13:41] herman Bergson: At the same time his colleague in London does the same there....and they have a good laugh about it.

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: not the poor

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol... if only

[13:41] Kime Babenco: Rich people are among themselves like us knows us

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: but those who earn money and work

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Kime,

[13:41] Qwark Allen: they control the money, therefore they control the countries

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i mean the people with the lowest income Lizzy

[13:42] Qwark Allen: they give money to all the parties to a election

[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed Qwark....but not in all respects

[13:42] Qwark Allen: so doesn`t matter who win the election

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: in Germany they pay almost no taxes

[13:42] Kime Babenco: They have the best lawyers, the most capital, all of friends in the same situation... like friends help friends

[13:42] Qwark Allen: look the example of the world wars

[13:42] Kime Babenco: Even judges i

[13:42] herman Bergson: As long as the workers work hard and produce profits for the rich all is well

[13:42] Qwark Allen: they were sponsored by warburg brothers

[13:43] Qwark Allen: or the russian revolution

[13:43] Qwark Allen: or any thing else

[13:43] herman Bergson: Krupp stahl...

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): All is not well - we need to consume as well, to sustain growth...

[13:43] herman Bergson: Fokker aviation industry....

[13:43] Qwark Allen: if you sponsor both sides, doesn't matter who wins, you always win

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes ^_^

[13:44] herman Bergson: But there is a new aspect in this matter.....

[13:44] Kime Babenco: You mean Fokker airplanes ?

[13:44] Qwark Allen: that is what gives the illusion of choice to all of us

[13:44] herman Bergson: in the financial world....the upper 10% new players have entered the game...

[13:44] Qwark Allen: there is no choice or option at the moment

[13:44] herman Bergson: Chinese and Russians...

[13:45] herman Bergson: I have no idea what that can mean....

[13:45] Qwark Allen: russians we know at a long time, are controlled by the rich families

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: they are having the same greed as all others i guess

[13:45] herman Bergson: But a fact is that there are industrial tycoons with big money from the former communist countries pulling strings, I suppose

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): What illusion of choice? I don't believe there is a proper choice at election time.

[13:45] Qwark Allen: there is no choice there, its what i`m saying

[13:46] Qwark Allen: A or B, will do the same thing

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Russians are buying our industry'

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): yay qwark ;)

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and make their own rules

[13:46] Kime Babenco: If China ( which has so much US$ in stock) would sell all those US$... by now... then USA is down...to the floor (except military)

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes it is a simplification as you put it, Qwark…

[13:46] Kime Babenco: The question is , would that a good thing to do for China ?

[13:47] herman Bergson: The world is not that one-dimensional in my opinion

[13:47] Qwark Allen: china lives in a illusion also

[13:47] Qwark Allen: unfortunately for them and for us

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: china will have a problem with the age pyramid soon

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well, my friend ^_^

[13:47] Qwark Allen: their economy is based in a fake GDP

[13:47] herman Bergson: what do you expect next?

[13:48] herman Bergson: The Apocalyse :-))

[13:48] Qwark Allen: was artificially made, to look like they are growing well

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes, afraid so!

[13:48] Qwark Allen: its just another illusion

[13:48] herman Bergson: I still don't think so...

[13:48] Qwark Allen: they will have a black monday in the future

[13:48] herman Bergson: oh...maybe Qwark....

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, there are 1 billion starving people this year according to the un

[13:49] Qwark Allen: read about what is making the GDP growth there

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): thats the apocalypse already

[13:49] herman Bergson: But just keep in mind that human life is not just economics....

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: hey, you are the modern Herman von Rotterdam (Erasmus)

[13:49] Kime Babenco: If I would have been living in Europe now... I would be afraid of the rising power of Germany there once again..

[13:49] Qwark Allen: you are right herman, its a shame what this bankers are doing with all us

[13:49] herman Bergson: smiles...

[13:49] herman Bergson: I see no threat in that.....

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I'm not afraid of germany

[13:50] Qwark Allen: for me one solution to start, was to vote blank in elections

[13:50] Qwark Allen: saying that any of those politicians are no good for us

[13:50] herman Bergson: Germany has risen to economic power already pretty soon after the war....it showed a remarkable recovery of the disaster

[13:50] Qwark Allen: to find others, with different ideas, and with courage to say no to the bankers

[13:50] herman Bergson: since the 60s Germany was the strongest in economy in Europe.

[13:50] Qwark Allen: to regulate markets

[13:51] Qwark Allen: to end with this governments corruption, to the bankers

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Germany is very aware of what they have done in 1940

[13:51] Qwark Allen: no more of this very expensive campaigns, saying all the same

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark.....the next job for human beings, politicians, is to put the financial markets in chains

[13:51] Qwark Allen: its millions of euros spent only in marketing

[13:52] Qwark Allen: marketing for politicians

[13:52] Qwark Allen: big parties, big everything

[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: we have a powerful economy but dissatisfied people in germany

[13:52] Kime Babenco: For as know as I know about financials and bankings ... I guess in 2008 governments had to let banks fail.. and only pay out people who saved their money there... Stock holding is a risk... first lessons of economy

[13:52] herman Bergson: true Kime

[13:53] Qwark Allen: and then in the end, they have to pay back their sponsors by keeping things as they are at the moment

[13:53] Kime Babenco: And secondly put all those trouble countries out of the Euros-zone...

[13:53] Kime Babenco: Help them later outside...

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: yes, they will tear us all in the disaster

[13:53] Kime Babenco: If would have cost less ... and the result is still uncertain today.

[13:54] Qwark Allen: eheheh that will be devastating for us, to start

[13:54] Kime Babenco: Imagine it crashed next month.. they other countries put 3000 billion US$ in a sinking ship

[13:54] Qwark Allen: its a good idea, to stop the federalism

[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes KIme.....

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: the big companies take the profit from the € and not the normal people

[13:54] Qwark Allen: but will keep things as they are now

[13:55] herman Bergson: One thing is for sure.....

[13:55] herman Bergson: not a single soul in Europe can predict how the situation will be in ...say ...two months....

[13:55] Qwark Allen: yes

[13:55] herman Bergson: There always is the intrigues of the financial markets....

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: I can, lol

[13:56] Kime Babenco: Only one thing ?

[13:56] herman Bergson: plz don't tell us Lizzy ^_^

[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: ok i keep it for me

[13:56] Debbie Dee (framdor): awww

[13:56] Qwark Allen: i have to go

[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: giggle

[13:56] herman Bergson: Let me live with my illusion for two month on ^_^

[13:56] Qwark Allen: party starts in 3 minutes for me

[13:56] herman Bergson: thanks for coming Qwark...

[13:56] Qwark Allen: you very welcome

[13:56] herman Bergson: and cheer up ^_^

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): alles sal reg kom..is an Utopia...

[13:57] Qwark Allen: i`m not optimistic at the moment for sure

[13:57] Kime Babenco: Lucky Qwark

[13:57] Qwark Allen: but at least , i know a bit of the truth about

[13:57] herman Bergson: So I notice Qwark...

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well I still am...

[13:57] Qwark Allen: somehow i`m happy with that

[13:57] Qwark Allen: not everyone is blind

[13:57] Qwark Allen: somehow you helped me opening the eyes

[13:57] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:57] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:57] herman Bergson: We aren't blind here....

[13:58] Qwark Allen: ^^

[13:58] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**  **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:58] Qwark Allen: ty

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): Leading the blind....

[13:58] Qwark Allen: you are awsome

[13:58] herman Bergson: A few more lectures and you all are ready for the revolution I think ^_^

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody! sleep tight!

[13:58] Qwark Allen: Hooooooo!!!!!!!   \O/     \O/     \O/

[13:58] Qwark Allen:                              |         |        |

[13:58] Qwark Allen:                              / \      / \      / \

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol. yes. thanks herman

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): night Lizzy...Gute Nacht

[13:58] Qwark Allen: lets crush them, with the truth of their lies

[13:58] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:58] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:58] herman Bergson: We will...

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): night liz,

[13:58] Kime Babenco: The problem with an economic crises like this is that politicians are reacting too slowly. Bankers on the otherside , have the most accurate informations

[13:58] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:58] herman Bergson: Beginning next lecture!

[13:58] Qwark Allen: for now

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Qwark

[13:59] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:59] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:59] Kime Babenco: Like I said rich knows rich, us knows us in that world

[13:59] herman Bergson: Yes Kime..and we still are the majority...

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): Mmmm. I enjoy coming here, but it sometimes depresses me that we are so powerless.

[14:00] herman Bergson: and the rich need the workers to survive...

[14:00] Kime Babenco: And to put it in explication : all waters run to the seas o oceans

[14:00] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...you should look at it this way....

[14:00] Kime Babenco: Money behaves like water

[14:00] herman Bergson: evolution didn't happen in a week but took millions of years...

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): sure

[14:01] Kime Babenco: \It goes from nothing to were there is already plenty of it

[14:01] herman Bergson: our scientific development ..to get where we are now took more than 300 years...

[14:01] herman Bergson: the social revolution with the fall of the Berlin wall to 90 years...

[14:01] Kime Babenco: More than or only ?

[14:01] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes? everything is speeding up....

[14:02] herman Bergson: We only can create conditions in our lifetime which will lead next generations in the desired direction

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor): Or in the wrong direction.

[14:02] herman Bergson: Well Kime....as a matter of evolution..I would say..it took only 90 years

[14:02] Kime Babenco: I hope not in deserted directions

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): My underlying fear, as you know, relates to our inability to stop consuming, in the face of resource depletion.

[14:03] herman Bergson: Dont forget that there is a lot to do about environment, pollution, ozon layer defects, depletion of oceans and other natural resources….

[14:03] herman Bergson: we all SEE it....

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): But we don't fix it.

[14:03] herman Bergson: even the greediest asshole cant deny that the resources of the world are limited...

[14:04] herman Bergson: that is not true...we do fix it.....but only on a small scale still

[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, why have there been NO carbon emission reductions since the signing of kyoto?

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): these assholes don't care about limited rescourses

[14:05] herman Bergson: Maybe not Beertje....but eventually they have to...

[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): Not one country has lived up to its commitments

[14:05] Kime Babenco: Do you really believe they are looking for water at the Moon or Mars ?

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..when they consumed it all..

[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): Why is there carbon cap and trade deals?

[14:05] herman Bergson: True.....

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and nothing is left..they search for other resources

[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): and they are about to drill the arctic

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why are we buying useless things???

[14:06] herman Bergson: Yes they are...

[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): and fracking has been approved in the karoo desert in south africa this week

[14:06] Kime Babenco: Yes, in deed... Antarctica will follow one day

[14:06] herman Bergson: what is fracking Debbie?

[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they produce so many useless things we don't need...and we//stupid consumers..are buying these things..why?

[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): fracking is the method of gas extraction from shale.

[14:07] herman Bergson: Ahh..ok..

[14:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): It has damaged large parts of americas water table

[14:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): They drill a hole, and then ram a liquid down to break the rock and release the gas.

[14:07] herman Bergson: the discussion on useless things is not that simple Beertje....

[14:08] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tomorrow is a big day for the Netherlands...I hope the next government uses their brains...

414: The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism - About the Rich

In my previous lecture I asked you to have a look at this diagram behind me and give your opinion. What do you read in this graphic representation of the decrease and increase of purchasing power.

.

I was astonished, when I saw the graphics, and then I understood. This is the real world of which politicians never speak, but which they keep unaltered.

.

In a year of deep financial crises, where banks loose billions, you would think that everybody across the broad has to take his losses. But this graphics shows, that the opposite is true. 

.

At least in the Netherlands, a country with a max tax rate of 52% and which is, if I am not mistaken, recently called a real socialist country by some American Republicans.

.

As a caricature it sometimes is said, that the socialist steal from the achievers and rich and give it to the losers, the poor. Whatever true this may be, this is not the case in the Netherlands.

.

The graphics shows us, that the richer you are the least negative effects does the crisis have on your purchasing power. Even more… If you belong to the richest 10% of society, your purchasing power even increased with 0.8%. Crisis or no crisis.

.

A short scenario may explain the logic of this. A company sees its profits go down. However, profit maximization is the target of the company to keep its shareholders satisfied. Crisis or no crisis.

.

Thence the company decides to reduce costs, which means, that it gives a 1000 employees the sack. As a result the company could even raise the dividend. The shareholders are happy and even see their purchasing power increase a little.

.

Next there is some confusion now. In Dutch we have the word "biljoen" (billion). In English this seems to mean trillion. One Dutch biljoen euro is 1.000.000.000.000 euro. Just that you know….we are talking about huge amounts of money.

.

-quote-

"The ultra-rich of this earth have parked at least 17 billion/trillion (?) euro in tax havens. An upper class has succeeded to withdraw from any joint responsibility by parking its money elsewhere at the expense of countries where they have amassed it. 

.

Therein they are facilitated by other countries which themselves often are victims of such practices, but they are only too happy to provide shelter to them. This applies not only to the Cayman Islands or the Channel Islands, but also to the Netherlands.

.

In the last decades, in conjunction with the globalization and the neoliberal dismantling of the state, there has come to power a group of multinational corporations and super-rich, who benefit from the collective infrastructure , but increasingly fewer contribute and in its gated communities withdraw themselves to all social problems

.

Where the bourgeoisie in the nineteenth century, because they themselves were strongly localized, committed themselves to the well being of their own city, because the cholera bacillus did not halt at their front door, 

.

this new money elite  now does not solve problems at its front door, but it just moves its front door. It succeeds thereby repeatedly in playing states against each other by bargaining for extremely favorable tax rate terms for itself ." (Thomas von den Dunk, cultural historian) -end quote -

.

A typical example is the Greek shipping companies. They use all infrastructure of the country, paid by tax money, without paying any taxes on their profits at all.

.

Another example is the Dutch Railroad Company, a privatized formerly state-owned company. It has an office, just an office in Dublin, Ireland. That office buys all new trains, which ride in the Netherlands only, and the Dutch company leases the trains from this Irish office. It is just a construction on paper.

.

To cut it short, while using all infrastructure in the Netherlands, this company succeeds in this way to evade 250 million euro of taxes a year.

.

Besides that the quality of the service deteriorated, because the company needed more profit to pay a good dividend to its shareholders and postponed replacements and repairs.

.

So much on the neoliberal dismantling of the state. There is something else. Maybe you have noticed that there is a new player in the field of politics.

.

I always believed that the democratically elected politicians dealt with the economic and social problems. Since the crisis, say since 2008, there is a new player: it is called "the financial markets". Part of its power is due to the deregulation of the banks, thanks to Thatcher and Reagan.

.

Regarding the euro crisis you now see how the politicians come to some agreement to solve the problems and then shudder and wait how "the financial markets" will respond.

.

Who are these financial markets? Of course it is this superrich 10%, individuals, multinationals and banks. On the one hand they put governments under pressure and on the other hand make the taxpayer pay for their misconduct and survival. How good can life be?!

.

-quote-

"This is a parasitic class of top bosses, who thinks that the rest of humanity actually should regard it as a great favor, that they are willing to live on this earth and therefore as a kind of favor create employment."

- end quote - (Thomas von den Dunk, cultural historian)

.

In other words this 10% affects the social cohesion and increase the gap between haves and have-nots. And in this sense neoliberal capitalism fails in a social and moral sense as does the absolute belief in the free market.

The Discussion

[13:25] Debbie Dee: Yes.

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you...^_^

[13:25] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: a horrible development it is going on now

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:25] Qwark Allen: its not going to stop soon

[13:25] Debbie Dee: Very clear explanation.

[13:26] herman Bergson: Maybe that is half the truth Bejiita....

[13:26] herman Bergson: How cynical it may sound....

[13:26] herman Bergson: but this rich 10% still needs the states, the societies to live themselves

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: Who otherwise would maintain their gardens, do the laundery, build their mansions etc.

[13:27] herman Bergson: Generate the dividends by their labour?

[13:27] Qwark Allen: this corporations set a grow, say of 15%, in their profits, means last year they had 100 mills profit, for this year they want 120 mills, or they will say they had a slow grow

[13:27] Qwark Allen: no matter what

[13:27] herman Bergson: Indeed Qwark...

[13:28] herman Bergson: The endless drill of setting targets

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: they just want more and more even they have so much money they cant logically spend it

[13:28] Debbie Dee: So, in a time of resource depletion, we are driven to higher levels of profit, and higher levels of consumption, by the free market forces.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Indeed Debbie.....the holy word in the free market is CONSUMPTION

[13:29] herman Bergson: And this free market belief is corrupting our moral values

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: id say its a bit like this TURF game i play , wanting more and more zones for your selves only here its no game, its peoples resources they play with and suck out

[13:29] herman Bergson: which I'll show you in the next lectures

[13:29] Debbie Dee: And, we must remember who they are.... It's us!

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: but a bit of comparison

[13:29] Debbie Dee: we consume.

[13:29] herman Bergson: yes..we do...

[13:30] herman Bergson: it is a bit of a paradox here

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:30] Debbie Dee: indeed, we support the process every time we shop, and buy lots of stuff.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Just remember that in the 15th century economy wasnt amatter of growth at all

[13:31] Qwark Allen: even if we only buy what we need to survive, its the same

[13:31] Debbie Dee: agreed qwark.

[13:31] herman Bergson: It was a matter of production to solve the needs of a community....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: the problem is commercials make people buy crap they really don't need

[13:31] Gemma Allen: if they paid the correct taxes it would help

[13:31] Qwark Allen: true

[13:31] Gemma Allen: but shelter the money untouched

[13:31] herman Bergson: So the free market belief doesn't need to be the only model

[13:31] Gemma Allen: and unseen

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: which also drains resources

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: from nature

[13:32] Debbie Dee: How can growth be sustainable on a finite planet?

[13:32] herman Bergson: If the rich would pay their taxes in the countries where they made their profits the world would look different

[13:33] herman Bergson: It cant Debbie...and an increasing number of people are conscious of that

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:33] Qwark Allen: and remember some of them, print their own money also

[13:33] Gemma Allen: exactly

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: then it would sustain the entire community

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but the more money people have the less they want to pay

[13:33] Qwark Allen: like in the USA

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: I'd say its the "Scrooge Mc Duck syndrome"

[13:33] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: I must go, TC all .... see you next tuesday!

[13:33] Qwark Allen: they print the money, and then sell it to the government there

[13:34] Gemma Allen: no all money comes from the us treasury

[13:34] Gemma Allen: they print

[13:34] Velvet: no, money comes from the federal reserve

[13:34] Qwark Allen: no, the money comes from the federal reserve bank

[13:34] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:34] herman Bergson: YEs even tho they obtained that money by the labor of workers in their own country....who need taxes to maintain th einfrastructure....medicare, education etc

[13:34] Debbie Dee: Money is debt - see Zeitgeist 2 movie.

[13:34] Qwark Allen: that belongs to the same bankers we are talking about

[13:35] herman Bergson: But believe me..I am convinced that there is hope for a better future....

[13:35] herman Bergson: and the reason for that is pretty simple....

[13:35] Qwark Allen: what you think is the solution?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: surley hope so

[13:35] Debbie Dee: Show us the way please herman.

[13:35] Qwark Allen: economy will collapse?

[13:35] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:35] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:35] Gemma Allen: show the world

[13:36] herman Bergson: The reason is...because I have these ideas....and I am giving a lecture on them....

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson: not because I am such a bright guy...

[13:36] herman Bergson: but because I listen to what I hear ...I read newspapers, book...on the internet....etc....

[13:36] Debbie Dee: But because you are a concerned citizen.

[13:37] herman Bergson: everywhere you can hear people voicing these ideas....

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Debbie....

[13:37] herman Bergson: and the interesting thing is...you see it in politics....

[13:37] herman Bergson: In the US....

[13:37] Debbie Dee: Not enough, in my opinion

[13:38] herman Bergson: they come up with a 100% pure Randian individualist , Paul Ryan....

[13:38] herman Bergson: against the democrats

[13:38] herman Bergson: In the netherlands there is a battle going on between liberal and socialist parties...

[13:39] herman Bergson: You see in the polls how the people really is split in two....

[13:39] herman Bergson: who should we believe...? The liberal or the socialist ...the Republican or the Democrate...

[13:39] Debbie Dee: None of the lying b....

[13:40] herman Bergson: I look forward to the elections in the US....

[13:40] Gemma Allen: OMG!!!

[13:40] Gemma Allen: omg

[13:40] Gemma Allen: holds breath

[13:40] herman Bergson: If the republicans win...we need to be worried..or at least I am

[13:40] Gemma Allen: very very worried

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: don't you look forward to the elctions in the Netherlands?

[13:40] Gemma Allen: all of the world

[13:40] herman Bergson: And here in the Netherlands too....

[13:41] herman Bergson: when the Liberals become the dominating party....we have to worry.....

[13:41] Gemma Allen: our election outcome will affect globally I believe

[13:41] Qwark Allen: i think there rand, was right, there is no option in this so called democratic elections

[13:41] herman Bergson: Oh yes Gemma...

[13:41] Gemma Allen: no

[13:41] Qwark Allen: no mater who is elected , the result is the same

[13:41] Gemma Allen: if rand was right the republicans will win and it will be a real real probleem

[13:41] herman Bergson: I don't think so Qwark....

[13:41] Gemma Allen: they are all rands

[13:41] Qwark Allen: doesn't matter, its the same

[13:41] Gemma Allen: well some of them

[13:42] Gemma Allen: no it is not

[13:42] Qwark Allen: check who is in the government of obama

[13:42] herman Bergson: for instance...those free financial markets that manipulate politics...

[13:42] Qwark Allen: a lot of people that was in the bush time

[13:42] Gemma Allen: no way

[13:42] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:42] Gemma Allen: a few

[13:42] Gemma Allen: a few

[13:42] herman Bergson: it is a government that can create restricting regulations to keep them under control....

[13:42] Qwark Allen: they change the "face" of the leader, but the politic is the same

[13:42] Debbie Dee: I think that both parties represent the class of super corporate money, and there is no real choice.

[13:43] Qwark Allen: who is in charge now, is not the governments, is the corporations

[13:43] Debbie Dee: yes qwark !

[13:43] Qwark Allen: governments do what corporations tell them to do

[13:43] herman Bergson: True Qwark...the graphics proofs it...

[13:43] Qwark Allen: yes

[13:43] Qwark Allen: so doesn' t matter what your vote is

[13:43] herman Bergson: Main goal of the top 10% is to protect their wealth

[13:43] Qwark Allen: best way to vote, is to no vote

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: same here in sweden, when election say we will do this and this and turns out everything is just lies and now we have a party that only want the rich and the ones already having a job, the ones with no job they put in an endless chain called phase 3 where employes get paid to use them but themselves they get nothing

[13:44] Qwark Allen: vote blank

[13:44] Debbie Dee: so where is this ray of hope you spoke of Herman?

[13:44] herman Bergson: I am not that pessimistic as you are Qwark....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: its in a process of getting a real job but that lead nowhere

[13:44] Qwark Allen: i`m just being realistic

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: a sort of slavery almost

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: terrible

[13:44] herman Bergson: That ray of hope is shown in history...

[13:44] Velvet: no vote is guaranteed to have no effect, Qwark

[13:44] Debbie Dee: Time for a revolution...?

[13:44] Qwark Allen: like rand said, we need to separate politics from economy

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:45] Qwark Allen: so politics can regulate, what needs to be regulated

[13:45] Debbie Dee: The rolling mass action sit ins have been interesting.

[13:45] herman Bergson: But it has to regulate economics Qwark....control banks for instance...prevent speculation etc

[13:45] Qwark Allen: for me a good start will be in some elections, only blank votes

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: we need some kind of management so it isnt the "money horney" wealthgy guys that decide everything making all spin put of control like it is now

[13:46] Qwark Allen: will say to these politics to go to hell, where they belong

[13:46] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:46] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hahaha yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: For that you have to be religious Qwark...

[13:46] Debbie Dee: We need to bury politicians standing up, so they may never lie again!

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: we ned more balance in the society

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: cause this isnt working at all as now

[13:47] herman Bergson: And I still believe that we can create that....

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hopefuly yes

[13:47] herman Bergson: But it won't be achieved in a week or so...will take years..maybe decades...

[13:48] Debbie Dee: Do the networks and social media help restore the balance?

[13:48] Gemma Allen: depending on what you watch

[13:48] herman Bergson: At least they have a great influence Debbie

[13:48] Debbie Dee: Like us sitting here ;)

[13:48] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: Politicians...and big corporations fear social meadia...

[13:49] Qwark Allen: social media is owned by the same bankers

[13:49] herman Bergson: Facebook can kill any new product for instance....

[13:49] Velvet: they can't control it like they control print & tv

[13:49] Gemma Allen: exactly

[13:49] herman Bergson: Funny story....

[13:49] Qwark Allen: there is no uncensured information at the moment

[13:49] herman Bergson: about killing a product...

[13:49] .: Beertje :.: Buckler bier

[13:49] Qwark Allen: at least what concerns the mass media

[13:50] Debbie Dee: lots of uncensored information, but all monitored as far as I can see qwark

[13:50] herman Bergson: years ago there was a dutch comedian....a welknown one nationally...very popular...

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: Joep!

[13:50] herman Bergson: in one of his shows he hit on a kind of beer, named :Buckler"

[13:50] herman Bergson: yes Beerje

[13:51] herman Bergson: He explained how drinking Buckler was something for the ultimate looser....

[13:51] herman Bergson: It was the joke of the day....

[13:51] Annie Brightstar: Please excuse me I need to go, sorry Herman

[13:51] Annie Brightstar: Bye all

[13:51] herman Bergson: In no time the brand was taken from the market....

[13:51] herman Bergson: impossible to sell it anymore ^_^

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: nobody wanted to be seen with Buckler

[13:51] herman Bergson: No...lol

[13:52] Gemma Allen: i have had buckler

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hahahah

[13:52] herman Bergson: Now take the social media....

[13:52] Gemma Allen: non alcohollic

[13:52] herman Bergson: The Facebook population can kill any product this way

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: talk about a joke going wrong

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: or any new regulation....

[13:52] Debbie Dee: There is a Vote Obama centre in sl next to my home ;(

[13:53] Debbie Dee: talk about politicizing games .

[13:53] herman Bergson: When I am not mistaken....there were two propsitions for new regulation in the Senate of the US...

[13:53] herman Bergson: A massive protest on Facebook and other social media made them disappear in no time

[13:54] herman Bergson: So...I say..there is hope! ^_^

[13:54] Qwark Allen: maybe you didn't saw the all true there herman... maybe another beer company paid that comedian to do so, .. so they sell more of their own beer

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:54] Gemma Allen: CYNICAL

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:54] Gemma Allen: q

[13:54] Debbie Dee: Well, then there is hope - because the connectedness of the world is forging ahead at an increasing rate

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:54] Gemma Allen: herman

[13:54] Qwark Allen: when this things happen is for a reason

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: well i drink beer based on if it taste good or not

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:54] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:54] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:54] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:54] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:55] Velvet: Thanks, everyone

[13:55] herman Bergson: And yes Qwark....the world is bad...:-)

[13:55] Debbie Dee: bye Qwark

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: Budweiser i think is a looser beer then cause its water with a little beer taste in only

[13:55] herman Bergson: You never know the truth...

[13:55] Qwark Allen: i learn a bit how to see things in the world with you hermaan

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: at least when i tried

[13:55] Qwark Allen: ^^

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: tasted like someone had added 50 % water to it

[13:55] Debbie Dee: Thanks Prof - excellent as always.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: no taste at all, i just thought " WHERE IS THE BEER?"

[13:55] Qwark Allen: see you tuesday

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: aasa cu

[13:56] .: Beertje :.: try a Leffe Bejiita:))

[13:56] herman Bergson: ok..next Tuesday Qwark...

[13:56] Debbie Dee: bye all - I must be going