417: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: Libertarianism

In 2009, Paul Ryan, running mate of Mitt Romney, said "What's unique about what's happening today in government, in the world, in America, is that it's as if we're living in an Ayn Rand novel right now.

I think Ayn Rand did the best job of anybody to build a moral case of capitalism, and that morality of capitalism is under assault." 

So let's investigate whether this assault on the morality of  capitalism is justified.

The richest 1% of Americans  possesses over a third of the country's wealth, more than the combined wealth of the bottom 90% of American families. The top 10% of American households are taking 42% of all income and hold 71% of all wealth.

Economic inequality is steeper in the United States than in other democracies. Some people think that such inequality is unjust and favor taxing the rich to help the poor. 

Others disagree. They say there is nothing unfair about economic inequality, provided it arises without force or fraud to the choices people make in a market economy.

The toughest defenders of the later point of view are the Libertarians, like Paul Ryan. You find these ideas among conservative Republicans, members of the Tea-Party movement. Even in the Netherlands we seem to have a libertarian party.

Libertarians reason that taxing the rich to help the poor violates a fundamental right. Taking money from the rich is coercive. It violates their liberty to do with their money whatever they please. 

Our liberty is based on what Robert Nozick (1938 - 2002) claims: "individuals have rights which may not be violated by other individuals" in his book : "Anarchy, State, and Utopia" (1974)

According to him, we have natural rights, especially our liberty and self-ownership (we own ourselves). This leads to his idea that we must see humans as ends in themselves and redistribution of goods is only justified on condition of consent.

This means that everything can be regulated by the free market. If this leads to winners and losers, there is nothing wrong with economic inequality as such. 

You can conclude nothing about the justice or injustice of this situation. What matter is  how the distribution came about.

All kinds of government rules and regulations to redistribute wealth, enforce health care, provide for social security for the poor and unemployed, are one by one serious infringements of the individual's right to liberty.

This is, because all is financed by imposing taxes, which even can be regarded as theft. 

Check this: 

There is the natural right of self-ownership. If I own myself, I own my labour. If I own my labour I must be entitled to the fruits of my labour. 

If someone else was entitled to the fruits of my labour, he would own my labour, so in fact own me. This is almost close to slavery.

If the state takes a part of my money, the fruit of my labour, it in fact takes my labour, which means that e.g. for 30% I am forced to work for the state, which is an infringement of my liberty.

We could object….hold on….you are a democratic citizen and thus subjected to laws which passed by majority vote.

The Libertarian reply would be: But what becomes of my individual rights?

May the majority deprive me of the freedom of speech and religion, as it deprives me of part of my income by taxation, claiming that as a democratic citizen I already have given my consent to whatever it decides by majority?

Does this argument hold? Are we indeed morally free in our self-ownership? Let me give you two examples.

Example one: Kidney donation is meant to save lives. You can donate one to your child because you can live with one. 

But if you OWN your body, these considerations do not matter. You are free to do with your property, i.e. kidney, as you please.

Suppose some art dealer offers you US$20.000 for a kidney. He makes coffee table ornaments of human kidneys. What prohibits you to take the money? Who cares about one kidney less?

Or suppose in a poor Indian village a father wants money for sending his son to college, so he'll have a better future. He sells a kidney to a rich American for transplantation.

Two years later he needs again money, now for sending his second son to college. He owns his body in absolute liberty and there is again a rich buyer for his second kidney…….

The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: You may think it over...of course...

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): thank you

[13:24] Multiphilosophy: *nods*

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hmm interesting issues for sure

[13:24] herman Bergson: Well let me reveal my main point.....

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): but first, who says that capitalism has a morality?

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): it seems amoral

[13:25] herman Bergson: the examples at the end of the lecture show us that the situation of self -ownership is not so simple in an ethical sense as some would let you believe

[13:25] Umae Ying: Do you expect free police and fire services? What if there was an attack by a foreign nation… free protection? Do you want to pay your own way on the services you receive?

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: i say we need to share and not take all for ourself, to care for others too¨

[13:26] herman Bergson: Ok...hold on....two matter here...

[13:26] herman Bergson: one..capitalism is amoral....

[13:26] Umae Ying: what if you could not pay the police yourself

[13:26] herman Bergson: Let's focus on that first...

[13:27] herman Bergson: there does not exist something like capitalism on the one hand and human beings at the other hand....

[13:27] herman Bergson: capitalism is the result of interacting individuals....

[13:27] herman Bergson: the ethics of capitalism is in the actions of the agents

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): pure capitalism is just a transfer of funds for good or services

[13:28] herman Bergson: It is often said that economy is amoral....

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): there's no judgement about those goods or services

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): peaches, kidneys,

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): etc

[13:28] herman Bergson: that sounds easy Velvet....but it already implies a value judgement....

[13:29] herman Bergson: You say GOOD services....

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): ahhh yes

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): okay

[13:29] herman Bergson: WHo decides what is good...where are the standards etc.

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): the purchaser, I suppose

[13:29] herman Bergson: that is an ethical question

[13:29] Umae Ying: Marketing and advertising take advantage of knowledge about how to influence people... is that fair that the rich can access that… education in the art of manipulation is not equal…for all

[13:29] Multiphilosophy: I think I agree with the professor. Capitalism does not necessarily carry morality. It's a creation. I think we should question the morality of those who put the system in place.

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham) nods at multi

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): yeo

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): yes

[13:30] herman Bergson: You have ann important point there Umae.....

[13:30] Umae Ying: propaganda

[13:30] herman Bergson: and yes Multi...you are right...

[13:30] herman Bergson: To get back to Umae....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Libertarians value liberty highly.....

[13:31] herman Bergson: but in what sense can we speak of liberty indeed in our world of commercials and advertizements...

[13:31] Umae Ying: superpacks

[13:31] herman Bergson: or...

[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe someone knows the book of John Grisham..."The Brethern"

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): oh please no grisham.

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): smiles

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): sorry

[13:32] herman Bergson: Part of the plot is that the head of the CIA "makes" the president by manipulation of all kinds of communication channels

[13:33] herman Bergson: Who has the money becomes president is th emessage

[13:33] Umae Ying whispers: FOX news

[13:33] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:33] herman Bergson: Even I know where FOX stands for :-))

[13:33] herman Bergson: You don't like Grisham Velvet? :-)

[13:34] Umae Ying: murdock

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): no :)

[13:34] Umae Ying: beck

[13:34] herman Bergson: Tell me after class why if you have a moment ^_^

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): smiles. okay

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think who has money is a large part of becoming the US president

[13:35] herman Bergson: Economics seems to be amoral....

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): sad but true

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: basically corruption

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): exactly. we as people decide morality

[13:35] herman Bergson: when you look at news from the stock exchange you only see screens...all is run by computer programs

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): but money just goes where it goes.

[13:35] herman Bergson: as if it is pure mathematics and science

[13:36] herman Bergson: which of course isn't true at all

[13:36] herman Bergson: economics WAS a part of psychology...

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes the computers do all by themselves without intervention and make the economy spin out of control

[13:36] Umae Ying: insider trading... in washington also

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: giving even more money to the ones already have by automatics i guess

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): no, the federal reserve has a lot of power

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and draining the poor

[13:36] herman Bergson: No bejiita...it is the people at the keyboards that makes things rock :-))

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham) nods

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: it is the middle class that has to pay everything Bejiita

[13:37] Umae Ying: in london they phoned or e-mailed each other to "fix" a number for a little while

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): the rapidly shrinking middle class.

[13:37] herman Bergson: the Libor-interest....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes but don't they just program it and then let it just run cause the computers are making 10000 s or more transactions per second

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): Umae, what number fixed?

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes that was manipulated to make quick profits....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: no human can follow that

[13:38] Umae Ying: it was in the trading...

[13:38] Umae Ying: i want to run this deal through...can you change the rate for a min while i run it through

[13:38] herman Bergson: But what nobody is talking about......

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): ahhhh I see

[13:39] herman Bergson: when you make a profit...

[13:39] herman Bergson: some one else makes a loss!

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: true

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): so?

[13:39] herman Bergson: and the person who takes the loss as a result of manipulated figures is ripped off...

[13:40] herman Bergson: so the people who do that are real thieves...nothing less

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): ah, excuse me. manipulating figures is unethical.

[13:40] Umae Ying: it is common

[13:40] herman Bergson: Don't you think so, Velvet?

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: bankers who sell us investments induce the loss of middle class people

[13:40] Multiphilosophy: Yet are the ones defending their rights to be free of taxation.

[13:40] herman Bergson: The fact that is is common practice doesn't justify a thing of course

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think that profit/loss is amoral.

[13:41] Umae Ying: stacking the deck is not amoral

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think that manipulation is not moral.

[13:41] herman Bergson: I wouldn't agree Velvet....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: or i don't know

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: tricky

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): no, I agree that stacking the deck is not fair

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: how it all works

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: but one thing for sure is as u said when someone win some other loose

[13:42] herman Bergson: If I have a product of which I KNOW that is is a bad product and yet I sell it to some one promissing him a good deal and profit

[13:42] herman Bergson: I am a thief

[13:42] herman Bergson: a fraud

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): unethical

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: yes

[13:42] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): but if you sell a good product and make a profit

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): all is well

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: there are too many such products on the market

[13:42] Umae Ying: not if you had your friends create a loophole for you in the laws

[13:42] Umae Ying: then it is legal

[13:42] Umae Ying: not nice...or moral..but legal

[13:42] herman Bergson: I take the profit and the buyer takes a big loss based on intentionally misleading information

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: we get a ton of commercials for them in the mail we go buy and then turn out to be just crap

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: and end up on the scrap heap

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): If I buy crap I blame myself.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes UMAE...There you hit the bull's eye of banking ethics at the moment...

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yhere attitude is...

[13:43] Umae Ying: that is the reason the big shots in wall street are not in jail

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): I would say that some of them are in jail!

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): not nearly enough

[13:44] Umae Ying: looopholes created by their friends that they helped to get elected

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): but some

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: i myself have concluded that to find the really good stuff i have to do hours of research on forums ect. before i can tell many things are really worth to buy

[13:44] herman Bergson: as long as there isn't a rule that forbids it, why should I stop selling this crab then?

[13:44] herman Bergson: I make a good profit with it....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: i dont trust commercials except for some brands that I know make good quality

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): because if you do, your clients will not return.

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: like Samsung and Philips

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: they make good things I've never had problem with them

[13:44] herman Bergson: There are always new clients Velvet....

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): okay, good point.

[13:45] herman Bergson: if we have used up all 300 million americans we move to Europe...:-))

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute.

[13:45] Multiphilosophy waves at Amadeus.

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ok....back to the beginning....

[13:46] herman Bergson: a free market which is said ti be based on liberty and self-ownership

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Amadeus

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hi Amadeus

[13:46] herman Bergson: I think, that at least we have an indication now that there are more values involved than only these two

[13:47] Umae Ying: what does ayn rand say?

[13:47] Umae Ying: does she include these others?

[13:47] herman Bergson: she would stick to the ideas of the Libertarians, Umae

[13:47] herman Bergson: No....

[13:48] herman Bergson: an idea of moral duty in a Kantian sense...

[13:48] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper): Hi all

[13:48] herman Bergson: the possibility of the existence of altruism as a moral value...

[13:48] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper) waves to Multi

[13:48] herman Bergson: all crap for her

[13:48] Velvet (velvet.braham): Rand would say that you can sell your kidney.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes she would agree to that indeed Velvet...even when it is your second one...

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): your kidney, your choice

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): see? amoral. just a transfer of funds.

[13:50] herman Bergson: that brings us to suicide and assistance with suicide.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Well Velvet...

[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): holy cow, herman.

[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): that's a hot topic

[13:50] herman Bergson: in the 90s there was a prisoner who wanted to donate his second kidney to his daughter....

[13:50] herman Bergson: he went to court for that ....

[13:51] herman Bergson: His request was denied as unethical....

[13:51] herman Bergson: so

[13:51] herman Bergson: even when we think we own ourselves....

[13:51] herman Bergson: it seems that it is not the whole truth of life....

[13:51] herman Bergson: an other example....

[13:52] herman Bergson: has really happened....

[13:52] herman Bergson: 4 men in a boat....their ship had sunk....

[13:52] herman Bergson: ten days at sea...almost starving..

[13:53] herman Bergson: one member of the group..orphan, young, sick because of drinking seawater...

[13:53] herman Bergson: they took a vote....

[13:53] herman Bergson: one refused to vote but eventually one killed the sick boy....

[13:54] herman Bergson: and the three survived 4 days on the blood and flesh of the boy when they eventually were saved...

[13:54] herman Bergson: was this murder?

[13:54] herman Bergson: or was this from a utilitarian point of view...the greatest happiness for the greatest number...

[13:54] herman Bergson: so taking the life of the boy was morally justified?

[13:55] herman Bergson: Well..think about that....

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): gosh, who can judge the actions of people in such circumstances?

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: I cant

[13:55] herman Bergson: the men were taken to court and convicted

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:55] Multiphilosophy: It sounds gray, neither good or bad, they flipped a coin and their decision was to take this action.

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: very interesting!!! it stimulates my thoughts! ty class!!!!!!! and TY herman!! i look forward to the new philosyear!

[13:56] herman Bergson: ok Bergie.....

[13:56] herman Bergson: You say grey Multi.....

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: its a such hard question

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see you thursday :-)

[13:56] herman Bergson: but did the others have the right to take a life?

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: killing the boy was murder but if they haven't all would have died

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye

[13:57] Multiphilosophy: Likewise, should they all have died of hunger instead?

[13:57] Velvet (velvet.braham): we decide to take lives all the time

[13:57] Multiphilosophy: Hence the decision of flipping a coin.

[13:57] herman Bergson: Oh my..I see people are breaking down ^_^

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: i hav to go too, good night everybody

[13:57] Multiphilosophy: Good night Lizzy

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: night Lizzy

[13:57] herman Bergson: Is it morally justified to flip a coin on a human life?

[13:57] Velvet (velvet.braham): sure it is

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well Lizzy...till next time

[13:58] Multiphilosophy: It depends.

[13:58] Multiphilosophy: It is wrong to flip the coin about life and death if death can be avoided.

[13:58] Multiphilosophy: It is different if death is a result on both sides of the coin.

[13:58] herman Bergson: then you cheat :-))

[13:58] Velvet (velvet.braham): that too

[13:58] Velvet (velvet.braham): :)

[13:58] Umae Ying: is it certain death or just inconvenience

[13:59] Velvet (velvet.braham): see, that's unknown at the time of the flip

[13:59] Velvet (velvet.braham): otherwise there would be no need for a flip

[13:59] herman Bergson: Well..I guess I gave you enough to think about.....

[13:59] Umae Ying: maybe they should all stick together...

[13:59] Umae Ying: help each other

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hehe indeed

[14:00] herman Bergson: our main theme is still to show that the free market has entered areas of live where it doesn't belong for moral reasons

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ok tome to head on

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: this was some really interesting stuff

[14:00] Multiphilosophy: It was too late to help each other, they would have died of hunger. But what they could have done was prepare better for the journey... but it was too late for that.

[14:00] herman Bergson: SO...thank you all for your participation again ...

[14:00] Velvet (velvet.braham): herman, you know I'm still going to argue with you that the market has no morality

[14:00] Umae Ying: hmmmm

[14:01] Multiphilosophy: Thank you for the class. I had ideas about freedom similar to this class, but you made these ideas even more clear. *nods*

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡

[14:01] herman Bergson: Ok...Velvet...just go on attending the lectures...

[14:01] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol

[14:01] herman Bergson: you'll get lots of opportunities then ^_^

[14:01] Velvet (velvet.braham): thank you Herman

[14:01] herman Bergson: class dismissed ^_^

[14:01] herman Bergson: And now...what is wrong with Grisham, Velvet? :-))

[14:01] Velvet (velvet.braham): oh my

[14:02] Velvet (velvet.braham): I'm chatty today I guess

[14:02] herman Bergson: I am just curious

416: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: ethical boundaries

We live in a time where almost everything is for sale or can be sold. In the past three decades, markets - and market values ​​- began to dominate our lives like never before.

-

It was not a conscious choice to end up in this situation. It seems like it just has happened to us. After the end of the Cold War the free market and the market-theory gained an unprecedented prestige.

-

No other method of the organization of production and distribution of goods was so successful in generating wealth and prosperity. 

-

More and more countries around the world accepted the mechanism of the market, but there happened also something else. 

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Market values ​​got an increasingly important role in society.   Economics was dominated everything. Human beings became just numbers in mathematical equations.

-

The logic of buying and selling did no longer apply only to material goods, but also began to control other areas of life. It is about time we ask ourselves if we want to live this way.

-

The years leading  to the financial crisis of 2008 were a turbulent era. The belief in the free market and deregulation reigned supremely: it was the time of the triumph of the market. 

-

That era began in the early 1980s, when Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher proclaimed that the free market, and not the government, was the key to prosperity and freedom. 

-

That trend continued with a market-friendly liberalism of Bill Clinton and Tony Blair, who despite minor adjustments confirmed the belief that the free market was the most important  means to improve general welfare.

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As I already have expressed in previous lectures, today we have serious doubts about this belief. The financial crisis has not only shown that it is not as efficient in spreading risks as it claims to be.

-

But we also have gotten a strong feeling that what we call "the financial markets" and the banks have drifted away from ethics and that we have to do something about that.

-

Some say that it is general greed, which is the weak spot of the financial world. Just keep the greedy bankers and speculators in check and our problems will be solved.

-

This is however only a part of the diagnosis. Sure, greed plays an important role in this crisis, but there is more. The increase of greed in the past 30 years is not the worst thing, that has happened.

The most fatal change that has taken place is, that the market and market-values have extended into areas of our life, where they don't belong.

Thence we have to do more than re-educate bankers and teach them not to be too greedy and teach them responsibility towards society.

We need a serious discussion about the ethical boundaries of the free market. The free market has got in its grip areas of our life which were formerly dominated by not-commercial values.

These areas are education, health care, hospitals, social housing (houses to rent by those who can not afford to buy a house), public security, even our body and matters of life and death. If you want you even can "buy" a child.

But why should we care, that everything can be bought? Just name the price. I can mention two reasons. One is inequality and the second is corruption.

Inequality is easily understood. If everything can or has to be bought, it means, that enjoying participation in all benefits of a society is mainly achieved by having money. No money? Bad luck for you…sorry! Or should we think differently here?

The second reason is maybe harder to understand, but it means that the belief in the benefits of the free market slowly corrupts human values, which are above selling and buying.

Just one example. In the next lectures we'll dig deeper into this aspect. How about selling your organs? For instance a kidney? You've got two, haven't you? Just think about this. We'll discuss this matter extensively in future lectures.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): People do sell organs already.

[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): wow. There's a lot there, Professor

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is under discussion in some circles

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): how we get the bankers to think anything but money i dont know

[13:22] herman Bergson: The main point is that the discussion should not only be about greed...

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or the investment bankers especially

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes thank you Prof Herman !

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are in business to only make money for their inverstors

[13:23] herman Bergson: What is worse is that certain human values are suddenly translated into dollars....

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma..but they always have been....

[13:23] herman Bergson: and nobody complained....

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Some how we need to focus more on the well being of the planet and all of its species.

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the usurers of the middle ages

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: we all have to change our minds, we are not only victims we are a part of this system sometimes

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i am

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i invest

[13:24] herman Bergson: It went wrong when all financial dealings were transferred to computerscreen....graphics and numbers on screens....

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): I invest, and consume hugely.

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): I guess that computers are to blame?

[13:25] herman Bergson: now you don't rip off someone...now you just push buttons and make a big profit...

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): no, that's just a rationalization

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): a monetary system and money are just tools

[13:25] herman Bergson: no...not the computers....but the fact that people lost the view that they were dealing with other people..not just with amounts

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): a shortcut to bartering

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes...just tools...

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think that's being willfully blind

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): The other aspect is that a large number of people are poor, and don't have the access to the free markets - no money.

[13:26] herman Bergson: indeed Debbie...that is the issue of equality...

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: and some are lazy

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): And their lives are largely ignored by the rich, or exploited as cheap labour

[13:26] herman Bergson: as I saisd earlier...

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its just that I live amongst it.

[13:27] Velvet (velvet.braham): I see. We are all equal in some ways, our right to medical care, for instance.

[13:27] herman Bergson: in 1850 the rich helped the poor to improve their living conditions through charity etc...

[13:27] herman Bergson: but that was a matter of self interest...

[13:27] Velvet (velvet.braham): but there us aways an inequality in standard of living

[13:28] herman Bergson: it was important to keep the workers healthy....who worked at their factories...

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): because the plague didn't stop at the front door - as you said so elloquently

[13:28] herman Bergson: or as servants in their homes....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Indeed Debbie...:-))

[13:28] herman Bergson: But the rich now live in their own enclaves...

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): again, willful blindness

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): They moved the front door to a haven.

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): they just choose not to see

[13:29] herman Bergson: they can move away from any epidemic ...or what else

[13:29] herman Bergson: yes..

[13:29] herman Bergson: But the other thing is human values..

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Now, many of the people living in the poor areas are not even connected to the net.

[13:30] herman Bergson: In my last example I implicitly refered to the integrity of the human body...

[13:30] herman Bergson: They even first need a computer Debbie...which they can not afford

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): They get old ones for free - they are dumped here. but then no money for connection

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): where I am you can get free access in libraries

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: I am sorry, i must go, TC everybody!

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): not ideal, but it's there

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lizzy

[13:31] herman Bergson: there goes our fairy :-(

[13:32] herman Bergson: sihs...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] herman Bergson: sighs

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): rodney

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ☆*¨¨*:•.•:*¨* hallo hello hi holla *¨¨*:•.•:*¨*☆

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): the glitter fades slowly as she leaves....

[13:32] herman Bergson: RODNEY! ^_^

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): late as usual

[13:32] Rodney Handrick: Hi everyone

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hi Rodney.

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hopeyou are reading the blog

[13:32] herman Bergson: A man of standards...:-)

[13:32] Rodney Handrick: yes

[13:33] herman Bergson: in the next lectures I'll show you how the free market idea has penetrated areas where it not should be...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Here in the Netherlands we had really one of the most stupid actions in that matter

[13:34] herman Bergson: We have a shortage of dentists.....

[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we can probably come up with a few

[13:34] Rodney Handrick: agreed gemma

[13:34] herman Bergson: so the market situation is....High demand and low supply....

[13:35] herman Bergson: in theory this means that when you make the pricing free the prices go up....

[13:35] herman Bergson: Every body said so.... yet the government insisted on an experiment with free pricing for dentists....

[13:36] Rodney Handrick: what do you mean by free pricing?

[13:36] herman Bergson: its argument was that it would stimulate competition and thus cause lower prices...

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): unregulated?

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!

[13:36] herman Bergson: By that I mean that every dentist is free to set the rates for his work

[13:37] Rodney Handrick: got it

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): ok

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): here in the US I hear from some people that too much regulation has had a negative effect on their health care

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes ....deregulation....that was the beauty of the idea....a smaller government.....

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:37] Rodney Handrick: right

[13:37] herman Bergson: Result....

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is riciduleous

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is not enough regulation

[13:38] herman Bergson: in no time a visit to the dentist was 10% more expensive than before the deregulation....

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): has been getting less in the last decades

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): my mother complains that she can't have the tests she should have

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): I can't say for sure that's the case

[13:38] Rodney Handrick: there have to be standards

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well..at least this "experiment" was really a failure and ridiculous too....

[13:39] herman Bergson: so now they immediately cancelled it....

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): good deal

[13:39] herman Bergson: back to fixed prices set by the government

[13:40] Rodney Handrick: fixed prices by the government? socialism

[13:40] herman Bergson: In future lectures I have plenty of such nice examples for you....^_^

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yep. good old caring for the citizens ;)

[13:40] herman Bergson: No Rodney...not socialism....basic fairness....

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): many of the best health programs in europe are solistic

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): socialistic but not socialism'

[13:40] herman Bergson: health is a social good for every citizen...rich or poor....

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Some aspects of socialism are desirable

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and they pay = more taxes

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): which we resent so here

[13:41] Rodney Handrick: basic fairness...that's subjective

[13:41] herman Bergson: The dentists are education with the people's tax money....

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right to life

[13:41] herman Bergson: so everybody has an equal right to dental care for instance....poor and rich...

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): Lets not forget the purchasing power graph.

[13:42] Rodney Handrick: the peoples tax money...now that's different because the taxpayer made an investment

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): if they don't we end up paying anyway

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:42] herman Bergson: INthe Netherlands university education (and other) is financed by the government...

[13:42] herman Bergson: as a student you hardly pay for it...which is quite different form the US (still.....)

[13:42] Rodney Handrick: the question is roi for the investors (taxpayers)

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): whew. tell me about it!

[13:43] herman Bergson: So health care is not a matter of the free market....

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): ROI is the wrong measure around here Rodney. Come to lectures ;)

[13:43] herman Bergson: health is a social good...

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): here tho they want it privatized

[13:44] herman Bergson: what is ROl?

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Return on investment

[13:44] Rodney Handrick: roi - return on investment

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma, that is what they are doing with hospitals in the Netherlands too now...

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): rodney tries ... for years he has been a member

[13:44] herman Bergson: Ahhh...

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): sneaks in at work

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol. cool.

[13:45] herman Bergson: funny ..my av starts typing....

[13:45] herman Bergson: wonder what he has to say ?! ^_^

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:46] Rodney Handrick: ai - artificial intelligence

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well... unless you still have an urgent question or remark, I'd like to thank you for you interest and participation

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope you have more next week

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): send more notices

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you, Professor

[13:46] Rodney Handrick: thanks...that was a good topic

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....More next Tuesday....for you in the blog asap

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Herman. Fine lecture.

[13:47] herman Bergson: Thank you Debbie

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): ;) see you next week

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): byee

[13:47] herman Bergson: Bye Debbie

[13:48] herman Bergson: Hello Osiris..didn't see you come in :-)

[13:49] Osiris Mubble: hello

[13:49] herman Bergson: smiles

415: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: the failing free market

In the discussion of my previous lecture I told you, that I am not the bright guy who invents all these ideas and arguments against neo-liberalism.

As I told you, look on the internet, check the literature, read your newspaper. Everywhere you find the growing insight, that we are definitely on the wrong track when pursuing the apparent blessings of the free market.

As I said….just read your newspaper. Therefor, as an example, I'd like to quote for you alter, written by some Dutchman and send to a national newspaper which published it. I read it as a confirmation of the growing insight, that things have to be changed.

-quote-

"More and more voices advocating reduction of privatization and of its product: the free market. The theory does not work. Healthcare is likely to be unmanageable and priceless. Most doctors who just want to be a doctor, want to get rid of the market.

Education groans under regulations; institutions are uncontrollable and chaotic mammoth organizations. Pupils and students become completely lost and often go their own way. 

The remnant of the unsurpassed PTT (Dutch postal Services, hB), TNT, threatening to become  unmanageable due to the repeated departure of directors . Housing .., no, now I hold on.

The Liberal toys just do not work for these organizations and services. Hopefully that penetrates slowly through in The Hague (seat of the Dutch parliament, hB) 

and hopefully a new government will take appropriate measures to stop this misbegotten privatization and its product, the free market,  as much as possible and to reverse with reason."

Henk Schraa, Heemskerk (The name of the author, just an ordinary concerned Dutch citizen). Tomorrow will be a significant day in Dutch politics. We may vote.

The campaigns are on and the situation is the clearest proof of what is happening in this world. The dutch situation is thus: the dutch parliament is composed of about 12 different parties. A government is always a coalition.

At this moment there are two parties in the lead for becoming the biggest party. On the one hand the liberal party, strong advocates for privatization and unlimited economic growth and on the other hand a socialist party, pleading for less free market and a more fair sharing of the national wealth.

At this moment the polls show a tie between the two. Nobody dares to predict anymore who will be the biggest party tomorrow evening at midnight.

And this simple political fact about a small country I interpret in the same way as I interpret the on coming presidential elections in the US. 

Tho there are a lot of powers and influences beyond our democratic control, voters are not stupid. They too see what is going on in the world, that we have to choose between greed or sharing.

Before the 80s the stock exchange was a place where people interacted with people. After work you could meet the guy, who, for instance, ripped you off that day and you could at least have a discussion about fair trade, 

but economic theory developed in the wrong direction after the war, because the mathematicians took power there. Economics thus has become a value-free trade in which moral judgments no longer count, but only numbers, put in a mathematical formula. 

In other words, the pseudo-science claims thanks to the models of Nobel Prize Winners as Paul Samuelson and Black & Scholes, such as the option price theory and market efficiency theory, to have become a real science.

In this environment, the beast in man got loose. The goal is no longer to be the best bank for the customer, but to be  the largest and most profitable one so that, thanks to super bonuses bankers could enrich themselves.

Economics is not a science like physics. In fact it is human behavior and thence a part of psychology end thence a part of philosophy, which can show you that there first is ethics and then there is economics.

The Discussion

[13:33] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:33] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: thank you herman

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank YOU Herman.

[13:33] Qwark Allen: first thing i have to say, that it doesn't matter what your vote will be

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tomorrow we can vote..I hope that the politicians do what they promise us

[13:33] Qwark Allen: there is no option in the parties you have to choose off

[13:33] herman Bergson: I disagree (to some extend) Qwark ^_^

[13:33] Qwark Allen: its a illusion

[13:34] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

[13:34] herman Bergson: No that is not true....

[13:34] Qwark Allen: ☆ ->~*~Partyyyyyyyyyy!!!!~*~ <- ☆

[13:34] Qwark Allen: no matter the that wins

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes Qwark, I find that the pre election promises evaporate the day after.

[13:34] Qwark Allen: the politic resultant of the election will be the same

[13:34] herman Bergson: We voted for better health care and we HAVE better health care than for instance the US,

[13:34] Qwark Allen: ☆ ->~*~Partyyyyyyyyyy!!!!~*~ <- ☆

[13:34] Qwark Allen: A or B, when elected follow the same rules

[13:34] Qwark Allen: the market rule

[13:34] herman Bergson: To some extend I agree with you Qwark....

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think we HAD better healthcare before Herman

[13:35] herman Bergson: Here in the netherlands they complained about the fact of 6 elections in 10 years...

[13:35] Qwark Allen: you are blind if you think the party B, with the pre election view of sharing will do any different then the A, with neoliberal view

[13:35] Qwark Allen: they are sponsored by the same ones

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, you guys at least have health care. here public health care sucks....

[13:35] herman Bergson: average lifetime of a government is 2 years....

[13:36] Kime Babenco: Voting is a duty or a right there? I prefer it as a duty

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yet...the Netherlands has become one of the richest countries in the world...

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a right Kime

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its a right here.

[13:36] Qwark Allen: one sponsor both parties, so it doesn't matter who wins, the "one" that sponsored both for elections, is the one that wins

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes it is a right....

[13:36] Kime Babenco: It's a duty here (right between 18 and 21, and above 55)

[13:36] Qwark Allen: do you think any of them will go agains`t the sponsor?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well Qwark what shocked me was what our prime minister said......

[13:37] herman Bergson: he said in some debate "We have to listen to the financial markets..."

[13:37] Qwark Allen: eheheh see what i mean

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes I know what you mean..... ^_^

[13:37] Qwark Allen: the ones that rule the markets at the moment, are the ones in control of any government you choose

[13:37] Kime Babenco: Really ? Markets talk there?

[13:38] Qwark Allen: there is not really a option there

[13:38] herman Bergson: And these financial markets are a threat to democracy

[13:38] Qwark Allen: i`m still with rand vision

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Kime…they even have a big mouth....

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I hope he will be gone by tomorrow

[13:38] Qwark Allen: separete government for economy, and regulate the market

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: in Gemany every big company has a lobby in berlin

[13:38] Qwark Allen: market

[13:38] Kime Babenco: That's their goal Herman...

[13:39] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example.......

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy....

[13:39] Qwark Allen: markets now, are not regulated and any government is just corrupt to them

[13:39] Qwark Allen: any governnent

[13:39] herman Bergson: The government proposes a plan...say...something about taxes on profits...

[13:39] Qwark Allen: taxes for us, profits for them

[13:39] herman Bergson: then the prime minister gets a phone call from a big CEO of a multinational....

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: true Qwark

[13:40] herman Bergson: He says....if you do that we move our main office and factory abroad.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: thousands of jobs.....

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so only the poor among us have to pay higher taxes

[13:40] Qwark Allen: because this lobbies have enslaved all countries

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): and millions of taxes

[13:41] herman Bergson: At the same time his colleague in London does the same there....and they have a good laugh about it.

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: not the poor

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol... if only

[13:41] Kime Babenco: Rich people are among themselves like us knows us

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: but those who earn money and work

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Kime,

[13:41] Qwark Allen: they control the money, therefore they control the countries

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i mean the people with the lowest income Lizzy

[13:42] Qwark Allen: they give money to all the parties to a election

[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed Qwark....but not in all respects

[13:42] Qwark Allen: so doesn`t matter who win the election

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: in Germany they pay almost no taxes

[13:42] Kime Babenco: They have the best lawyers, the most capital, all of friends in the same situation... like friends help friends

[13:42] Qwark Allen: look the example of the world wars

[13:42] Kime Babenco: Even judges i

[13:42] herman Bergson: As long as the workers work hard and produce profits for the rich all is well

[13:42] Qwark Allen: they were sponsored by warburg brothers

[13:43] Qwark Allen: or the russian revolution

[13:43] Qwark Allen: or any thing else

[13:43] herman Bergson: Krupp stahl...

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): All is not well - we need to consume as well, to sustain growth...

[13:43] herman Bergson: Fokker aviation industry....

[13:43] Qwark Allen: if you sponsor both sides, doesn't matter who wins, you always win

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes ^_^

[13:44] herman Bergson: But there is a new aspect in this matter.....

[13:44] Kime Babenco: You mean Fokker airplanes ?

[13:44] Qwark Allen: that is what gives the illusion of choice to all of us

[13:44] herman Bergson: in the financial world....the upper 10% new players have entered the game...

[13:44] Qwark Allen: there is no choice or option at the moment

[13:44] herman Bergson: Chinese and Russians...

[13:45] herman Bergson: I have no idea what that can mean....

[13:45] Qwark Allen: russians we know at a long time, are controlled by the rich families

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: they are having the same greed as all others i guess

[13:45] herman Bergson: But a fact is that there are industrial tycoons with big money from the former communist countries pulling strings, I suppose

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): What illusion of choice? I don't believe there is a proper choice at election time.

[13:45] Qwark Allen: there is no choice there, its what i`m saying

[13:46] Qwark Allen: A or B, will do the same thing

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Russians are buying our industry'

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): yay qwark ;)

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and make their own rules

[13:46] Kime Babenco: If China ( which has so much US$ in stock) would sell all those US$... by now... then USA is down...to the floor (except military)

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes it is a simplification as you put it, Qwark…

[13:46] Kime Babenco: The question is , would that a good thing to do for China ?

[13:47] herman Bergson: The world is not that one-dimensional in my opinion

[13:47] Qwark Allen: china lives in a illusion also

[13:47] Qwark Allen: unfortunately for them and for us

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: china will have a problem with the age pyramid soon

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well, my friend ^_^

[13:47] Qwark Allen: their economy is based in a fake GDP

[13:47] herman Bergson: what do you expect next?

[13:48] herman Bergson: The Apocalyse :-))

[13:48] Qwark Allen: was artificially made, to look like they are growing well

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes, afraid so!

[13:48] Qwark Allen: its just another illusion

[13:48] herman Bergson: I still don't think so...

[13:48] Qwark Allen: they will have a black monday in the future

[13:48] herman Bergson: oh...maybe Qwark....

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, there are 1 billion starving people this year according to the un

[13:49] Qwark Allen: read about what is making the GDP growth there

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): thats the apocalypse already

[13:49] herman Bergson: But just keep in mind that human life is not just economics....

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: hey, you are the modern Herman von Rotterdam (Erasmus)

[13:49] Kime Babenco: If I would have been living in Europe now... I would be afraid of the rising power of Germany there once again..

[13:49] Qwark Allen: you are right herman, its a shame what this bankers are doing with all us

[13:49] herman Bergson: smiles...

[13:49] herman Bergson: I see no threat in that.....

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I'm not afraid of germany

[13:50] Qwark Allen: for me one solution to start, was to vote blank in elections

[13:50] Qwark Allen: saying that any of those politicians are no good for us

[13:50] herman Bergson: Germany has risen to economic power already pretty soon after the war....it showed a remarkable recovery of the disaster

[13:50] Qwark Allen: to find others, with different ideas, and with courage to say no to the bankers

[13:50] herman Bergson: since the 60s Germany was the strongest in economy in Europe.

[13:50] Qwark Allen: to regulate markets

[13:51] Qwark Allen: to end with this governments corruption, to the bankers

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Germany is very aware of what they have done in 1940

[13:51] Qwark Allen: no more of this very expensive campaigns, saying all the same

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark.....the next job for human beings, politicians, is to put the financial markets in chains

[13:51] Qwark Allen: its millions of euros spent only in marketing

[13:52] Qwark Allen: marketing for politicians

[13:52] Qwark Allen: big parties, big everything

[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: we have a powerful economy but dissatisfied people in germany

[13:52] Kime Babenco: For as know as I know about financials and bankings ... I guess in 2008 governments had to let banks fail.. and only pay out people who saved their money there... Stock holding is a risk... first lessons of economy

[13:52] herman Bergson: true Kime

[13:53] Qwark Allen: and then in the end, they have to pay back their sponsors by keeping things as they are at the moment

[13:53] Kime Babenco: And secondly put all those trouble countries out of the Euros-zone...

[13:53] Kime Babenco: Help them later outside...

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: yes, they will tear us all in the disaster

[13:53] Kime Babenco: If would have cost less ... and the result is still uncertain today.

[13:54] Qwark Allen: eheheh that will be devastating for us, to start

[13:54] Kime Babenco: Imagine it crashed next month.. they other countries put 3000 billion US$ in a sinking ship

[13:54] Qwark Allen: its a good idea, to stop the federalism

[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes KIme.....

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: the big companies take the profit from the € and not the normal people

[13:54] Qwark Allen: but will keep things as they are now

[13:55] herman Bergson: One thing is for sure.....

[13:55] herman Bergson: not a single soul in Europe can predict how the situation will be in ...say ...two months....

[13:55] Qwark Allen: yes

[13:55] herman Bergson: There always is the intrigues of the financial markets....

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: I can, lol

[13:56] Kime Babenco: Only one thing ?

[13:56] herman Bergson: plz don't tell us Lizzy ^_^

[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: ok i keep it for me

[13:56] Debbie Dee (framdor): awww

[13:56] Qwark Allen: i have to go

[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: giggle

[13:56] herman Bergson: Let me live with my illusion for two month on ^_^

[13:56] Qwark Allen: party starts in 3 minutes for me

[13:56] herman Bergson: thanks for coming Qwark...

[13:56] Qwark Allen: you very welcome

[13:56] herman Bergson: and cheer up ^_^

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): alles sal reg kom..is an Utopia...

[13:57] Qwark Allen: i`m not optimistic at the moment for sure

[13:57] Kime Babenco: Lucky Qwark

[13:57] Qwark Allen: but at least , i know a bit of the truth about

[13:57] herman Bergson: So I notice Qwark...

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well I still am...

[13:57] Qwark Allen: somehow i`m happy with that

[13:57] Qwark Allen: not everyone is blind

[13:57] Qwark Allen: somehow you helped me opening the eyes

[13:57] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:57] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:57] herman Bergson: We aren't blind here....

[13:58] Qwark Allen: ^^

[13:58] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**  **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:58] Qwark Allen: ty

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): Leading the blind....

[13:58] Qwark Allen: you are awsome

[13:58] herman Bergson: A few more lectures and you all are ready for the revolution I think ^_^

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody! sleep tight!

[13:58] Qwark Allen: Hooooooo!!!!!!!   \O/     \O/     \O/

[13:58] Qwark Allen:                              |         |        |

[13:58] Qwark Allen:                              / \      / \      / \

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol. yes. thanks herman

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): night Lizzy...Gute Nacht

[13:58] Qwark Allen: lets crush them, with the truth of their lies

[13:58] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:58] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:58] herman Bergson: We will...

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): night liz,

[13:58] Kime Babenco: The problem with an economic crises like this is that politicians are reacting too slowly. Bankers on the otherside , have the most accurate informations

[13:58] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:58] herman Bergson: Beginning next lecture!

[13:58] Qwark Allen: for now

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Qwark

[13:59] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:59] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:59] Kime Babenco: Like I said rich knows rich, us knows us in that world

[13:59] herman Bergson: Yes Kime..and we still are the majority...

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): Mmmm. I enjoy coming here, but it sometimes depresses me that we are so powerless.

[14:00] herman Bergson: and the rich need the workers to survive...

[14:00] Kime Babenco: And to put it in explication : all waters run to the seas o oceans

[14:00] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...you should look at it this way....

[14:00] Kime Babenco: Money behaves like water

[14:00] herman Bergson: evolution didn't happen in a week but took millions of years...

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): sure

[14:01] Kime Babenco: \It goes from nothing to were there is already plenty of it

[14:01] herman Bergson: our scientific development ..to get where we are now took more than 300 years...

[14:01] herman Bergson: the social revolution with the fall of the Berlin wall to 90 years...

[14:01] Kime Babenco: More than or only ?

[14:01] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes? everything is speeding up....

[14:02] herman Bergson: We only can create conditions in our lifetime which will lead next generations in the desired direction

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor): Or in the wrong direction.

[14:02] herman Bergson: Well Kime....as a matter of evolution..I would say..it took only 90 years

[14:02] Kime Babenco: I hope not in deserted directions

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): My underlying fear, as you know, relates to our inability to stop consuming, in the face of resource depletion.

[14:03] herman Bergson: Dont forget that there is a lot to do about environment, pollution, ozon layer defects, depletion of oceans and other natural resources….

[14:03] herman Bergson: we all SEE it....

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): But we don't fix it.

[14:03] herman Bergson: even the greediest asshole cant deny that the resources of the world are limited...

[14:04] herman Bergson: that is not true...we do fix it.....but only on a small scale still

[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, why have there been NO carbon emission reductions since the signing of kyoto?

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): these assholes don't care about limited rescourses

[14:05] herman Bergson: Maybe not Beertje....but eventually they have to...

[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): Not one country has lived up to its commitments

[14:05] Kime Babenco: Do you really believe they are looking for water at the Moon or Mars ?

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..when they consumed it all..

[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): Why is there carbon cap and trade deals?

[14:05] herman Bergson: True.....

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and nothing is left..they search for other resources

[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): and they are about to drill the arctic

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why are we buying useless things???

[14:06] herman Bergson: Yes they are...

[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): and fracking has been approved in the karoo desert in south africa this week

[14:06] Kime Babenco: Yes, in deed... Antarctica will follow one day

[14:06] herman Bergson: what is fracking Debbie?

[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they produce so many useless things we don't need...and we//stupid consumers..are buying these things..why?

[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): fracking is the method of gas extraction from shale.

[14:07] herman Bergson: Ahh..ok..

[14:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): It has damaged large parts of americas water table

[14:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): They drill a hole, and then ram a liquid down to break the rock and release the gas.

[14:07] herman Bergson: the discussion on useless things is not that simple Beertje....

[14:08] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tomorrow is a big day for the Netherlands...I hope the next government uses their brains...