506: Buddhism and Meditation

I admit. Last Tuesday in my lecture I gave the impression, that I almost threw the baby out with the bathwater, but Ciska Riverstone brought an article to my attention in an attempt to restore some balance.

The article is interesting and important indeed. Note the date: 31, October 2012.  It is on display behind me…plz take your time to read it.

 The article conforms all media rules, which helps you to sell science. It has a spectacular statement… “the world’s happiest man?” 

The accompanying pictures are showing a mix of something traditional in combination with complex technology. And it is about the brain, a hot and popular topic in 2012.

The most interesting aspect of the article is, however, that it is old news, almost 10 years old, when this information already was published but with another monk. This is namely about the team of David Richardson.

Richard J. Davidson (born December 12, 1951) is professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin–Madison since 1984.

He is popularizing the idea that based on what is known about the plasticity of the brain, we can learn happiness and compassion as skills just as we learn to play a musical instrument, or train in golf or tennis. 

Happiness, like any skill, requires practice and time but because we know that the brain is built to change in response to mental training, it is possible to train a mind to be happy.

In 2011 on January 24 I posted lecture 298, which ends with:

-quote- 

They [a.o. Davidson was meant here] are, so to speak, world champions in being happy. That is the reason that meditation enjoys the attention from leading scientists. This is not about buddhism, but about the mental techniques used in meditation.

A result of this research is "mindfulness meditation". It can be described as a calm awareness of one's body functions, feelings, content of consciousness, or consciousness itself. It has a positive influence on the brain.

There is a lot on YouTube about this subject, but the presentation "Cognitive Neuroscience of Mindfulness Meditation" [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf6Q0G1iHBI ]

is interesting in relation to our project.

-end quote -

So, the article is just repeating old news. Matthieu Ricard already appeared on Youtube 6 years ago with his message, but the message is still important: meditation can change your feeling of happiness or wellbeing.

What has this to do with Buddhism. You might look at it this way. The real person Buddha may have developed indeed some method of concentration and meditation and may have experienced a real permanent mental change.

While we can explain this by referring to the working of the brain, even to some extend can cause it artificially by consuming psychopharmaca, he experienced it in his mind and called it “awakening” or “enlightenment”.

He integrated his physical and consequently mental experiences in his philosophy of life and his ideas on ethics, thus creating, what we now call, buddhism.

From a philosophical point of view I therefor like to separate the basic philosophical ideas of Buddhism from meditation. Meditation is a general tool. Like a hammer doesn’t make someone a carpenter. Lots of professions use a hammer as a tool. Practicing meditation doesn’t necessarily make you a buddhist.

But the buddhist tool of meditation helps use to achieve the Fourth Noble Truth:

Now this is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

And if you interpret “suffering’ as “discontentment”, meditation and the Fourth Truth may indeed lead to a happier life than a bigger car and an higher income.

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: that might be true

[13:20] Chantal: Thank you Herman ㋡

[13:20] Frau Brause: thxs

[13:20] herman Bergson: The floor is yours if you have remarks or questions :-))

[13:20] Lizzy Pleides: thank you

[13:20] Debbie dB: Great Herman - thanks

[13:21] Frau Brause: but i guess for some the truth will not leasd at first in a better life^^

[13:21] Dar: Strange that scientist just now beginning to do studies about the benefits of  meditation when it's known for thousands of years.

[13:21] Frau Brause: for most ppl its hard to see the truth^^^

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: this for one thing shows that in contrast to many other religions which rely on super natural things, the concept of buddhism is scientifically provable

[13:21] Debbie dB: I still battle to see the truth

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: it is things that actually works

[13:21] herman Bergson: Let me answer Dar....an important remark....

[13:22] herman Bergson: This has a history Dar....

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: There's again the problem of how to define happiness scientifically

[13:22] herman Bergson: the Easterlin paradox

[13:22] herman Bergson: In 1974 Easterlin an American economist published an article

[13:23] herman Bergson: and the thesis of the article was that increase of income between 1946 and 1974 had not increased the general ahppiness in the US...

[13:23] herman Bergson: That was a kind of a shock....

[13:24] herman Bergson: this conclusion is now debatable....but that is another issue

[13:24] xtc yonimyxtc: its only now we are beginning to have the technology to scientifically measure and record

[13:24] herman Bergson: yes xtc...but not only that....

[13:25] herman Bergson: After 18974 happiness became a legitimate subject of scientific investigation.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Richardson began in 1984 with his research....

[13:25] herman Bergson: He met the Dala Ilama in 1992 and became a close friend

[13:26] herman Bergson: That brought meditation within his horizon

[13:26] herman Bergson: so that answers your question perhaps

[13:27] herman Bergson: And indeed...with all these fMRI scan techniques etc. we can look into the brain

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:27] herman Bergson: and that is a technology of pretty recent origin

[13:28] Frau Brause: thoughts are still a very personal thing

[13:28] .: Beertje :.: it seems to me that people múst be happy these days

[13:28] Frau Brause: no one can watch them^^

[13:28] Frau Brause: so these techniques are not so useful^^

[13:28] Frau Brause: we measure only from the telling

[13:29] herman Bergson: the brian scans do not  observe thoughts .....

[13:29] Debbie dB: Well, technology seems to be good at helping us be happy... i love sl.

[13:29] Dar: For me meditation is not a tool for cultivating happiness. It's to cultivate  understanding of the nature of reality which cultivates a realization that nothing is permanent there for no need to be attached to things that will eventually cause suffering.  When one have achieve thus, then happiness is then percieved in the mind.

[13:29] herman Bergson: They observe responses of the organism to stimuli

[13:29] Frau Brause: true dar

[13:30] Dag: agree with Dar but you should have stopped before the last part of the sentence

[13:30] herman Bergson: It is not about cultivating happiness Dar

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: indeed SL is the only computer program that have given me real memories, thats since i ve met a lot of friends and done a lot f fun here

[13:30] Debbie dB: so dar - no sensitivity = no feeling?

[13:30] Dar: No happiness is a perception.

[13:30] oola Neruda: http://www.onbeing.org/blog/live-video-krista’s-interview-matthieu-ricard/4003

http://www.onbeing.org/program/journal/8

http://www.onbeing.org/blog/impressionable-faces-buddhist-silence/3992

there is a search line on this (ON BENG) website... if you t

[13:30] ἀρετή: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/12/26/1321664111.full.pdf

[13:31] oola Neruda: type in his name, you will get more links

[13:31] herman Bergson: there is a lot on Youtube of Ricard

[13:31] herman Bergson: But that is not what we are discussing...

[13:32] herman Bergson: Our subject is ...how do we interact with our environment and how can we influence this....

[13:32] Frau Brause: with our mind

[13:32] Frau Brause: u are what u think

[13:32] herman Bergson: Buddhism...Ricard for instance talks about benevolence....that meditation opens your mind for that

[13:32] Frau Brause: and what u think of others

[13:32] oola Neruda: the first link i gave is on that very subject... of happiness and meditation

[13:33] herman Bergson: and that is true....physically true

[13:33] ἀρετή: train the brain to form new ways of thinking

[13:33] Frau Brause: yes

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:33] herman Bergson: meditation stimulates the left prefrontal cortex...

[13:33] Frau Brause: the brain is a muscle

[13:33] Frau Brause: or a toll

[13:33] Frau Brause: ^^

[13:33] Frau Brause: tool

[13:34] herman Bergson: yes and we only today begin tounderstand how the brain works....

[13:34] Sousi: The brain is everything you are.

[13:34] herman Bergson: we use it...

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: didn't Cannabis do that either?

[13:34] herman Bergson: but not to its full capacity....

[13:34] Frau Brause: yes it does not have to use us^^^

[13:35] herman Bergson: And I think that Buddha really discovered the possibility to "train" the brain

[13:35] Dag: does it make sense to make a distinction between brain and mind in this context ?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: the brain to us is what the cpu is to the computer, in the early days the computer was in fact referred to as a mechanical brain

[13:35] Debbie dB: Our brains are flexible, and multi purpose. Garbage in - garbage out. But we can rewrite some algorrithms ;)

[13:35] Frau Brause: not only buddhishm

[13:35] Dar: Yes, the mind is always jumping around like a monkey, meditation teaches you to not let it jump around like a monkey.

[13:35] Sousi: The brain is the mind, yes, in a very real sense.

[13:35] Frau Brause: aggrippa from nettersheim too

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie

[13:35] Frau Brause: the old alchemists

[13:35] Frau Brause: perhaps jesus does

[13:36] Frau Brause: but we all forgot it

[13:36] Frau Brause: or well church destroyed it^^

[13:36] Debbie dB: Religion just confuses thinking Bergie ;)

[13:36] Debbie dB: sorry - hermine

[13:36] herman Bergson: Maybe you can say that we now can explain what people thousands of years discovered by simple experience

[13:37] Frau Brause: i guess it is simple

[13:37] Frau Brause: but everyone tries to make it complex

[13:37] herman Bergson: I love to hear that :-))

[13:37] Frau Brause: to male money with it

[13:37] Frau Brause: make

[13:38] herman Bergson: That may be the big issue of today Frau Brause....

[13:38] Frau Brause: ^^

[13:38] Debbie dB: Yes. Its still all about the money. I would love to see more research on how capitalism makes us happy?

[13:38] Dar: I'd like to share a link with you all.. it's long and can watch it later if you wish.  It's worth the time. http://youtu.be/U555f9RryII

[13:38] herman Bergson: The discovery that making money does not increase the general wellbeing of  a population when certain level of prosperity is reached

[13:38] Frau Brause: debbie u can answer yourself i guess

[13:39] herman Bergson: There is Debbie....

[13:39] Sousi: It is fashionable to criticize capitalism... but what is the alternative, really?

[13:39] Frau Brause: less consume and more< happiness

[13:39] herman Bergson: and that research shows that increase of wealth does NOT make people happier

[13:39] Debbie dB: don’t use up the resources in one go,

[13:40] herman Bergson: unless this increase enables people to satisfy basic needs as housing and food and healthcare and education

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: very true

[13:40] oola Neruda: a family member began meditating and has changed greatly from grouchy to peaceful and helpful

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is possible oola

[13:40] oola Neruda: it took a long time tho

[13:41] Sousi: Thing is... it's not just about the amount of consumption... if we change to a planned economy, there are prices to pay for that as well.

[13:41] Frau Brause: its hard to meditate regular

[13:41] Frau Brause: in the first time

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes...like the Buddha...wasn’t he 40 years in meditation first?

[13:41] Frau Brause: i am just trying

[13:41] xtc yonimyxtc: do you have a link to that about money and well being, professor or a direction you can send me in to google it for myself? :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Google on Easterlin

[13:42] Dar: Very true frau, but keep it up, it's worth it in the end.

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: indeed, friends make you happy, owning more and more stuff is not rely the same thing cause well its just , stuff

[13:42] herman Bergson: no...USe Wikipedia and look at the bottom at the other links

[13:42] xtc yonimyxtc: ty, professor :-)

[13:42] Frau Brause: will do try now for nearly one year and its gettin better

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: usable maybe but you cant buy real happiness

[13:42] Debbie dB: sousi , capitalism has many flaws. To just accept it as the only system is not correct.

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: with put friends around you are still alone and sad

[13:42] Sousi: Present an alternative.

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: no matter how much "stuff” and money you have

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: social equity might make happy

[13:43] Frau Brause: true bejita

[13:43] xtc yonimyxtc: one DOES need money for the basics which translates into money=happiness

[13:43] Sousi: And in what what way would "social equity" be a replacement for capitalism?

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes, up to that point, but u don’t need 20 computers and 10 rolls royce

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: that don’t make you happier

[13:44] Frau Brause: not even a car bejita

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: one of them maybe

[13:44] Frau Brause: only food enough to be not hungry

[13:44] Frau Brause: anb some clothes

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: but some people have a whole range of luxury cars

[13:44] Frau Brause: but not 10 dresses

[13:44] Debbie dB: OK - heres an alternative - redistribute wealth once an individual has more than 10 times as much as the average ;)

[13:44] Sousi: And who gets to decide what kind of food you get to eat?

[13:44] Frau Brause: u only need the basics

[13:44] Frau Brause: and that is really not much

[13:45] Frau Brause: media makes us mad about things

[13:45] Sousi: After all, you only need "food enough not to be hungry"

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: i want nice friends, good food and a nice place to live

[13:45] Frau Brause: which we really do not need

[13:45] Debbie dB: Yes.

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:45] Debbie dB: what purpose does a new Ferrari serve?

[13:46] herman Bergson: A fact is that when we have reached a standard of living as we have inEurope and the US, more money etc does not add to our general feeling of happiness

[13:46] .: Beertje :.: status ㋡

[13:46] Sousi: Who decides what purpose is served by each product?

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: a car for me is mostly to get from one point to another, however can be a nice feeling in a fast car with good acceleration

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: but the most important thing any car can do

[13:46] herman Bergson: A new Ferrari doesn’t work.....

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: get me from A to B

[13:46] xtc yonimyxtc: everything beyond 'basic' is extravagant eg when you start adding adjectives to the word 'basic'

[13:46] Debbie dB: Bejita -- it makes the driver look like a greedy idiot with a small dick ;)

[13:46] Dar: This will make me sound like a robot maybe.. but when I think of happiness, and well being, I only think of the mind and how it precedes all things. In essence, it's a choice how we feel, and how we view things.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Our feeling of happiness is 30 to 50% genetic

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: heheh well a car like that will sting in may peoples eyes for sure

[13:47] xtc yonimyxtc: *an extravagance

[13:47] ἀρετή: it would be fun to drive it.. simple pleasures in life?

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: material things only can make you happy for some days until you are used to it

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: i suppose so

[13:47] Debbie dB: With one Ferrari cost you can put 30 kids through school.

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: something like that

[13:47] herman Bergson: It would be fun to drive it indeed for a short time....after that it becomes just common driving a car

[13:48] ἀρετή: why would a person's happiness determine the happiness of another?

[13:48] Debbie dB: and a fuel waster.

[13:48] Sousi: So... if you really want to own a Ferrari, and the People's Revolutionary Council of Oversight of Value of Consumer Products has stated that Ferraris may not be built, will you be happy about that?

[13:48] Debbie dB: yes

[13:48] Debbie dB: as long as it applied universally

[13:48] herman Bergson: I wouldn’t care...

[13:48] oola Neruda: happiness depend on that of another person??? mothers can tell you

[13:48] Sousi: And if they then killed your three favorite foods, judging them "extravagant"?

[13:49] Debbie dB: Right now i m unhappy about pollution - can I do anything about that?

[13:49] Frau Brause: yes debbie

[13:49] Sousi: After all, oatmeal is enough for everyone?

[13:49] Frau Brause: dont drive a car

[13:49] Frau Brause: and tell everyone around u

[13:49] Debbie dB: Oh happiness is contagious! Share the joy

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: also most Ferraris are wrecked in a short while cause the owners think they have magical powers and that they can drive like maniacs, a car is a machine obeying the laws of physics

[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: my 3 Ferraris are already moved out :-) and love is the greatest wealth

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: just like any other car

[13:49] Frau Brause: that makes ppl think

[13:49] ἀρετή: if happiness was a currency...

[13:49] Frau Brause: and perhaps u reach one

[13:49] Frau Brause: and U are one person less

[13:49] Frau Brause: everyone can do ANYTHING

[13:50] ἀρετή: I don't own a Ferrari, but I'm not bashing anyone who owns one either.

[13:50] Sousi: If PCs able to run Second Life were seen as extravagant and collected and forbidden for use by private persons?

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: they might be fast and so but if you want to drive that fast you should only do when you know what you really are doing and where it is appropriate

[13:50] Debbie dB: Im not bashing the owners - i m asking why the directors of the company aren’t jailed for making wasteful, dangerous machines

[13:50] herman Bergson: What is your point Sousi? :-)

[13:50] ἀρετή: fast cars are mostly to test the engineering capabilities

[13:51] Debbie dB: blah

[13:51] Sousi: My point is... there is NOBODY that can plan well enough to plan our economy.

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: a Ferrari cant bend physical laws more then any other car, if you don’t look out you will crash

[13:51] herman Bergson: no....

[13:51] Sousi: Any such decision will be an experiment in misery, just like all the previous ones were.

[13:51] herman Bergson: but life is not only economy....on the contrary

[13:51] Debbie dB: we don’t need think of only two methods - capitilism cs communism. we need something kinder than capatilism, and freer than Russian communism

[13:52] Sousi: Capitalism is far from perfect... but as I said, I have heard of no credible alternative.

[13:52] herman Bergson: Life should be a just distribution of resources to begin with

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:52] ἀρετή: compassion

[13:52] herman Bergson: yes Aryen

[13:52] Dar: I think the point is missed.. it's not that things makes you happy or unhappy, it's not being attached to the feeling or experience of happy or unhappy.

[13:52] Debbie dB: the current experiment has 90 % of the people poor, and 10 % fat

[13:52] herman Bergson: non violence

[13:52] Sousi: You guys aware of the Gini coefficient number?

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: indeed, something like that Debbie

[13:52] Debbie dB: yes

[13:53] Debbie dB: I know that co-eficient

[13:53] herman Bergson: Explain Sousi

[13:53] herman Bergson: plz

[13:53] Sousi: Do you also know that old Soviet Russia had a very bad one?

[13:54] Sousi: The Gini coefficient is a way to measure spread of wealth in a society - wealth gaps.

[13:54] Debbie dB: Oh probably. But so does america

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:54] Sousi: If goes from a thought endpoint where one person owns everything, to the other where everyone has exactly the same.

[13:54] Sousi: Sure... America has a wealth divide.

[13:55] Debbie dB: HA HA - THE RUSSIANS AND AMERICANS HAVE THE SAME COEFFICIENT ;)

[13:55] Sousi: But... and here is the important part: The Soviet Union was far, far, far worse.

[13:55] Debbie dB:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:55] Debbie dB: ¨°º©©º°¨=^ L A F F S ^=¨°º©©º°¨

[13:55] Chantal: Wishes everyone a good time ㋡ Thank you Herman, most enjoyed it :)

[13:55] Frau Brause: bye chantal

[13:55] herman Bergson: it  represents the income distribution of a nation's residents

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: bye Chantal

[13:55] Debbie dB: Bye chantel

[13:55] Chantal: ㋡ Bye

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Chantal :-)

[13:56] ἀρετή: bye Chantal

[13:56] herman Bergson: Bye Chantal....

[13:56] Sousi: Otherwise put: For the wealthy, communism was a system that allowed them to rise far and away higher in wealth compared to the have-nots

[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: we have very different results in happiness rankings

[13:56] herman Bergson: Ok....

[13:56] herman Bergson: For all of you....

[13:56] oola Neruda: i am rather ill today...and must go lie down... be well all of you

[13:56] herman Bergson: Study the GINI coefficient...

[13:56] ἀρετή: is this the part where we go and meditate on the subject? :)

[13:56] herman Bergson: it is in Wikipedia :-)

[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: TC oola

[13:56] Dar: :)

[13:56] xtc yonimyxtc: lol, areyn :-))

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: aw ok oola

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: bye then

[13:57] Sousi: Communism empowers corruption. To nobody's surprise.

[13:57] Dar: Feel better soon.

[13:57] Debbie dB: theres a good graph in wikipedia.

[13:57] ἀρετή: take care, oola

[13:57] herman Bergson: And find the article of Easterlin 1974...I forgot the title....

[13:57] herman Bergson: The growth of......

[13:57] herman Bergson: Anyway

[13:57] xtc yonimyxtc: yes, thank you, professor

[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you all for this good discussion

[13:58] herman Bergson: Hope to see you all again next time

[[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:58] Debbie dB: Thanks herman.

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday then

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58] xtc yonimyxtc: fare well, bergsonians, until we meet again...

[13:58] Dar: Thank you Herman, everyone.

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman

[13:58] Frau Brause: good night all

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: bye all

[13:58] ἀρετή: fun term.. bergsonians

[13:58] Frau Brause: hope to see u next week

[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thanks for this interesting topic! herman

[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:58] ἀρετή: Thanks for the class

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: good night everyone

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:58] Debbie dB: and thanks sousi ;) Ill try to think of an alternative

[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: bye bye class :o)

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: cu

505: Causes and Cessation of suffering

As we concluded last time, the basic condition of human existence is, according to the Buddha,  suffering, the First Noble Truth of Buddhism. If you don’t understand this, you are still far from enlightenment.

This suffering finds its causes in birth ,aging, illness, death, union with what is displeasing, separation from what is pleasing, not to get what one wants. In brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

These last words need some explanation: “the five aggregates”. What is meant by them? Summarized you could say, the term means our body and mind in our material environment.

1. “Form" or "matter" ,  the physical world.  the material body and the physical sense organs.

2.  “Sensation" or "feeling"  sensing an object[g] as either pleasant or unpleasant or neutral.

3.  “Perception", " registers whether an object is recognized or not (for instance, the sound of a bell or the shape of a tree).

4.  “Mental formations",  all types of mental habits, thoughts, ideas, opinions, prejudices, compulsions, and decisions triggered by an object.

 5. “Consciousness"  

These five aggregates cause various kinds of desire – craving, clinging, attachment, impulse, greed, lust, thirst, and so on. The Second Noble Truth states that the source of our discontentment is found not simply in our desires, but in the connection we forge between desires and happiness.

-quote -

The Second Noble Truth: Now this is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence,accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence,craving for extermination.

-end quote -

Many people would agree that suffering or unhappiness is rooted in desire, that it consists of not getting what we want and getting what we do not want.

Happiness, in this view, is acquisition of all that we try to gain and security from all that we seek to avoid. The Buddha taught that this understanding of happiness is a mistake. 

We can never achieve true and complete happiness in these terms, and there is another, far better form of happiness that we can achieve.

Obtaining what we are hoping to gain and safety from what we are trying to avoid will not bring us real happiness. This can only be achieved by a radical transformation of our desires and aversions  and especially of our attitudes towards them, according to the Buddha.

-quote -

Third Noble Truth. Now this is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it.

-end quote -

True happiness in life, the opposite of suffering, is brought about by reaching a state in which, we eliminate many of our desires and stop clinging or attaching ourselves to all of them. The Buddha referred to this state with the term ‘Nirvana’.

And here we are offered a classic epistemological problem. On the one hand we have happiness, as we know it 

and on the other hand there is a kind of happiness, as claimed by some fellow human being, which it the TRUE happiness, which for some reason he only knows or discovered while sitting under a tree some day.

How he knows, what I don’t know, I do not know, but I am told that I have to pray, meditate, perform special activities to discover that happiness too.

In one of this kind of philosophies - maybe a bit extreme - I am even promised 72 virgins, when I blow myself up in a crowded marketplace.

Rhank you ^_^

[13:17] herman Bergson: Y

[13:18] herman Bergson: T

[13:18] Debbie dB:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:18] herman Bergson: in other words thank you :-))

[13:18] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:18] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: the suicide bombers philosophy i guess

The Discussion

[13:18] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:18] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Professor

[13:18] Gemma Allen: well sitting under a tree for 40 years should teach something

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: those guys are nuts for sure

[13:18] Gemma Allen: i guess

[13:18] Debbie dB: Thanks Herman. Pity you couldn’t tell us more about how Nirvanah feels :)

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: buddha is better

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:19] herman Bergson: I just don't know Debbie :-)

[13:19] Lizzy Pleides: do you think herman has reached nirwana already Debbie?

[13:19] Gemma Allen: i don’t think he has tried

[13:19] Debbie dB: Oh well, Ill have to go and find a tree, and a cushion.

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: you never know with Herman ㋡

[13:20] ἀρετή: too attached to the suits... :)

[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: want one debbi? ;)

[13:20] herman Bergson: Besides that I have no idea why I should have the disire to get into Nirvana state, as it is required to have NO desires at all, which crave for happiness

[13:20] Debbie dB: I don’t think so Liz - he's new to eastern philosophy

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:20] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:21] Debbie dB: The question is will Nirvanah be so cool you would ignore your iPhone?

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:21] herman Bergson: this sounds like Nirvana talk :-))

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: maybe sometimes it makes you happy to have more bad desires, lol

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:21] herman Bergson smiles

[13:21] Qwark Allen: that way should be "nirvana"

[13:22] herman Bergson: good point Lizzy :-))

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:22] ἀρετή: so is Nirvana like a coma?

[13:22] herman Bergson: No...

[13:22] herman Bergson: my point is that someone say what TRUE  happiness is, while I say...hmmm...I feel happy already

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: (doesn't come with a tree i'm afraid debbie)

[13:22] Debbie dB: Certainly the part of letting go of attachments is good for us.

[13:23] Debbie dB: and thanks ciska for this clear view.

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: many things are discovered under a tree it seems, Newton did the same and discovered gravity

[13:23] herman Bergson: Everybody knows that wishing things you never can reach makes no sense

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: gravity

[13:23] Debbie dB: Herman, How happy are you?

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...but that was already there

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yes but no one gave gravity a thought before that

[13:24] herman Bergson: I don’t think you can quantify happiness...

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: but qualify?

[13:24] Debbie dB: Agreed. but there is more and less happy?

[13:24] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita...or the wrong thoughts

[13:24] Qwark Allen: seems we don`t know much more about gravity since then bej :-)))

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: no its hard but i’m happy when i feel good and motivated and have friends around me doing fun things together

[13:25] herman Bergson: That depends Debbie....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: stuff like that

[13:25] herman Bergson: there is research in this matter

[13:25] herman Bergson: It seems that every individual has some kind of general state (of happiness)

[13:25] herman Bergson: that means....

[13:26] Debbie dB: Certainly riches don't bring happiness - they result in more stress, and the need for more work.

[13:26] herman Bergson: if you ask a person to score his feeling of happiness on a scale it will be most of the time the same score...

[13:26] herman Bergson: independent of his conditions...

[13:27] herman Bergson: one wins the lottery....another gets an accident which brings him in a wheelchair....

[13:27] Debbie dB: Oh amazing.

[13:27] herman Bergson: eventually...after a certain period it showed that both persons scored their happiness again as before

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: it normalizes

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: sort of

[13:28] herman Bergson: in the long run the man in the wheelchair wasn’t unhappier than he was before

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Bekiita

[13:28] Debbie dB: So there is a kind of happiness level inside us, that can get driven up or down, but returns to normal with time?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Kind of ...like you have optimists and pessimists

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: i guess you have an "idle state" that you level to and when above it you feel extra happy and below you feels sad

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...

[13:28] Gemma Allen: I think the idea of nirvana is much deeper than jiust a happiness as we are talking about it

[13:29] Gemma Allen: needs exploration

[13:29] herman Bergson: but why Gemma?

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: i go up and down around that state all time

[13:29] Gemma Allen: i mean the understanding of what it means to buddhists

[13:29] Debbie dB: So the buddha view is very enlightening - if we can let go of the things that cause us pain and stress, and focus on understanding, and love - we will be happier more often

[13:29] herman Bergson: It is a know fact that meditation influences our brainwaves

[13:29] Gemma Allen: takes lots of study to be a real buddhist

[13:30] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:30] Gemma Allen: oh

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: yes debbie

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: aaa indeed

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: we would for sure

[13:30] herman Bergson: You don’t need Buddha to come to that conclusion, I would say, Debbie :-)

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: seems logical

[13:30] Debbie dB: I often sit in the lotus position and breath in rl ...

[13:30] Debbie dB: my boss thinks i’m nuts ;)

[13:31] ἀρετή: isn't it the goal for each to find their own buddha in themselves?

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: it is very logical but it seems its difficult to do ;)

[13:31] herman Bergson: You also could say...when you behave more social an healthy you stay happier

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: at least for many people

[13:31] Gemma Allen: i look at the dalai lama's life

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: we know that the state of happiness also depends of the saturation of micronutrients

[13:31] Gemma Allen: has been so sorrowful

[13:31] Gemma Allen: but he is a living example of happiness

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: of course herman - but our societies say the contrary _ if you behave competitive you stay more happy and have more

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Ciska...

[13:32] Debbie dB: Competition to use everything as quickly as possible has to be a bad idea.

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:32] herman Bergson: And we all see what mistake that is ...

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: indeed but we are learned that its the other way around

[13:33] herman Bergson: the greed and competition have lead to the crisis we are in now

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: more and consumption buying lot of things all time and so on

[13:33] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:33] Gemma Allen: western thinking

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: money

[13:33] Debbie dB: And we so love it.

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: sure i’m happy with my new computer cause it works good, but still it s just a machine

[13:34] herman Bergson: Our prosperity may be a basis for hapiness...but how it is distributed makes it a source of unhappiness

[13:34] Gemma Allen: new movie where the hero falls in love with a machine

[13:34] Gemma Allen: Her

[13:34] herman Bergson: when rich people only get richer and poor only poorer

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: a very useful machine though that i can use to socialize with others

[13:34] Debbie dB: well, we don’t see the poverty much Herman. Its kind of out of sight mostly.

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and that make me happy

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: not the machine itself

[13:35] herman Bergson: So...Buddha forces us to face the question: what is happiness

[13:36] ἀρετή: contentment?

[13:36] Debbie dB: I thought you guys were all inside my computer? That used to make me happy.

[13:36] herman Bergson: and...how to achieve it!

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: that was NSA only Debbie

[13:36] Debbie dB: happiness is the absence of pain and sadness.?

[13:36] ἀρετή: we had to break out of the box, Debbie :)

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:36] Debbie dB:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:36] Debbie dB: lizzy

[13:37] herman Bergson: Contentment might be a good concept here

[13:37] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:37] Gemma Allen: better word

[13:37] Debbie dB: It is a good word to describe the Buddha’s happiness.

[13:37] herman Bergson: I mean...I have an income, but I am not a millionair...but I am really content with my situation...

[13:38] Debbie dB: But a bad word to describe westerners happiness. We need MORE!

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and more and more and mooooorre!

[13:38] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:38] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:38] herman Bergson: We are forced to believe that we want more...

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and then all crashes down

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: that is the basis of our economy

[13:39] herman Bergson: I really don’t know what I would want more at this moment....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: i also have mostly all i need at moment

[13:39] herman Bergson: I don’t need a bigger house, bigger car, more money...faster computer, larger TV

[13:40] Debbie dB: Me too, but ill still buy a new pc, and a phone soon.

[13:40] herman Bergson: I need health :-)

[13:40] Gemma Allen: we all do

[13:40] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: i buy good things that are a bit future proof so they last very long

[13:40] Gemma Allen: wonders where everyone is today

[13:40] herman Bergson: Got it again now L-)

[13:40] Debbie dB: Well - its hard to be happy when you’re in pain.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:41] herman Bergson: Bu tis makes no sense to expect that a personin pain should be able to feel happy

[13:41] Debbie dB: and death remains a looming stumbling block to eternal happiness ;)

[13:42] herman Bergson: That is a bit Buddha's problem....

[13:42] herman Bergson: does life end just like that or do we live for ever....

[13:42] herman Bergson: a solution for the suffering of death

[13:42] Debbie dB: we live for ever ;)

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes:-)

[13:43] herman Bergson: one way or the other will the atoms I am made of find a way  to continue:-)

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: of course

[13:43] Debbie dB: Look how many people live on in your grand museum. Captured forever in pixels.

[13:44] herman Bergson: only the "I" saying mechanism wont be there anymore :-)

[13:44] Gemma Allen: i missed the field trip

[13:44] Gemma Allen: darn

[13:44] Debbie dB: ha ha... maybe

[13:44] Gemma Allen: but i have been there before

[13:44] Debbie dB: I went there after the field trip.

[13:44] Debbie dB: ((nice work Prof))

[13:44] herman Bergson smiles

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:45] herman Bergson: thnx Debbie...

[13:45] Gemma Allen: it looks like a search for nirvana now that i think about it

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: loved that museum

[13:45] herman Bergson: SL nirvana is easily found.....

[13:45] Gemma Allen: true

[13:45] herman Bergson: just turn off your computer :-)

[13:45] Debbie dB: I love the sound and idea of the word... Nirvanah. It conjures up a peaceful thought.

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: gave me some inspiration for some art of my own i try make

[13:45] ἀρετή: wish it was that easy, Professor :)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: yes indeed

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: true

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: nirvana = peacefulness for me

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: means something like that

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes a nice word

[13:46] Debbie dB: I bet theres a drink called Nirvanah somewhere

[13:46] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:46] Debbie dB: probably a killer cocktail

[13:46] herman Bergson: But they also write it like "nibbana"

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:47] herman Bergson: Depends whether they romanize Sanskrit or Pali

[13:47] ἀρετή: wow.. no kidding, there's really such a cocktail XD

[13:48] Gemma Allen: i am sure there is somewhere

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: i’m not surprised since there are cocktails called things like orgasm and god know what out there

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:48] herman Bergson: Then this is a good moment to conclude our discussion and make us a Nirvana cocktail :-)

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: just need to see whats in it

[13:48] herman Bergson: Thank you all again

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: nice as usual Herman ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....:-)

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: Nirwana-Cocktail created by Jamie Boudreau. After a wonderful After Work Party this night this is the right drink before going to bed!

Ingredients

2 oz. Rye Whiskey

1 oz. Amer Picon

1/4 oz. Maraschino Liqueur

1/4 oz. Benedictine

Preparation

Stir all ingredients with ice in a mixing glass and strain into a cocktail glass. Garnish with an orange zest.

[13:49] Gemma Allen: http://www.sheknows.com/recipes/nirvana-cocktail

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:49] herman Bergson: And now the recipe of the Nirvana coctail Aryen..plz :-))

[13:49] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:49] Gemma Allen: sounds good

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: saving that

[13:49] herman Bergson: perfect ^_^

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:49] ἀρετή: one of many... thanks to google ;) http://www.sheknows.com/recipes/nirvana-cocktail

[13:49] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:49] Debbie dB: - theres so many menus for Nirvanah Cocktail. It will keep me busy.

[13:49] Debbie dB:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:49] Gemma Allen: hope to be here thursday

[13:49] Qwark Allen: as usual

[13:49] Qwark Allen: .-)

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehee

[13:49] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:49] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:50] Qwark Allen: happy that i was here

[13:50] Qwark Allen: Hooooooo!!!!!!!   \o/

[13:50] Qwark Allen:                               |

[13:50] Qwark Allen:                             / \

[13:50] Qwark Allen: ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮

[13:50] Qwark Allen: Hoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: some event coming up Q?

[13:50] herman Bergson: See you all on Thursday again :-))

[[13:50] Qwark Allen: not today

[13:50] Debbie dB: Nice to see you all - and thanks for the lively chat, and great lecture.

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:50] Qwark Allen: still feeling not so well

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everyone

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu thursday then ㋡

[13:50] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:50] Debbie dB: yep.... byeeeeeeeeee

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: happy nirvana everyone!

[13:50] ἀρετή: get well soon, Qwark

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:50] ἀρετή: cheers ^^

[13:51] herman Bergson: Nice you could make it Debbie :-))

[13:51] ἀρετή: have a good rest of the day

[13:51] ἀρετή: Thanks for class again

[13:51] herman Bergson: My pleasure Aryen :-))

[13:51] ἀρετή: bye for now :)

[13:52] herman Bergson: Bye

504: Buddhism and suffering

What we clearly should keep in mind, are the questions “What are we talking about?” and “About who are we talking?” The first question we could answer with “Suffering” and the second with “homo sapiens”.

Nice abstractions, but as I said in the previous lecture: ideas emerge in a historical context. Thus what suffering means is colored by its historical context.

“Homo sapiens” is even more astonishing. When you look at this species you see a great variety. It seems that all stages of historical development of the species are still present.

You find men, who still live like as the hunter-gatherers 7000 years ago. There are people organized in tribes, which seem to kill others because they belong to other tribes.

You have (illiterate) people whose way of thinking shows striking resemblance with the way of thinking in Europe of the Middle Ages, believing in ghosts, sorcery and the like.

And you have people, who  live in well organized prosperity with education, healthcare, perfect housing, technology etc. In this melting pot of all kinds of stages of the “condition humaine” we are discussing the First Noble Truth of Buddhism: “There is suffering”

This was according to the Buddha the starting point of human existence. Buddhism is still an accepted philosophy  and based on ideas, formulated more than 2000 years.

Here we are confronted with the question: Do these ideas still apply to our situation? Or, in other words, did a human being about 2400 years ago formulate universal truths about human existence?

Here we enter the realm of interpretation or the debate about, what the Buddha really meant. The answer is clear: there are numerous schools in Buddhism spread across a number of countries like  Japan, China, Tibet, Thailand and some more.

There is no difference here with Islam or Christianity or - I may be wrong - yet one. Through history Christians and Muslims have shown to be pretty willing to murder those who have a different opinion.

Buddhism has been prosecuted now and then, but I have no knowledge of systematic murder by buddhists of other buddhists or disbelievers and infidels. Correct me, if I am mistaken here.

What did the Buddha mean with his First Noble Truth:

- original text from the Discourses of the Buddha

First Noble Truth. Now this is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; 

union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

- end text

We have to understand this in the light of the other three Noble Truths, especially the third one “There is cessation of suffering”. So, buddhism is not a gloomy pessimistic theory about life.

‘The truth of suffering is like a disease, the truth of origin is like

the cause of the disease, the truth of cessation is like the cure of the disease, and the truth of the path is like the medicine’. 

The Buddha’s central teaching has the form of a medical diagnosis and plan of treatment. But this presupposes of course, that you first must see yourself as a patient with a disease.

We might be inclined to think that many (if not most) human lives are not so bad, that the positive aspects of life outweigh the negative ones.

Similarly, the Buddha thought, most of us can point to some positive features of life: he is not saying we are miserable all the time. 

However, there is something not fully satisfactory about the lives most of us live. We seek enduring happiness by trying to attach ourselves to things that are in constant change.

This sometimes brings temporary and partial fulfillment, but long-term result is frustration and anxiety. Because of the impermanence of the world, we do not achieve the real happiness we implicitly seek.

The Buddha thought we could all sense the truth of this with a moderate amount of honest reflection on the realities of human life, but he also believed that full understanding of the first Truth was difficult to achieve and would require significant progress towards enlightenment.

This is how you can interpret the ideas of the Buddha. It is not my way of looking at our world. That is what I can conclude so far.

The Discussion

[13:17] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:18] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you, great lecture!

[13:18] Zanicia: Thank you

[13:18] herman Bergson: If you have a question or remarks...feel free..the floor is yours :-))

[13:19] Lizzy Pleides: The murdering of the christians and Muslims is not part of their philosophy, it was an interpretation of certain people

[13:19] herman Bergson: You are all meditating now, I suppose ? :-))

[13:19] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:19] Zanicia: hehe

[13:19] Gemma Allen: thinking about it all

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:19] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy

[13:20] herman Bergson: But beliefs exist only in the human mind and are the motivation to action

[13:20] herman Bergson: Besides that...the Quran states that you may kill infidels and throw homosexuals from the highest building

[13:21] Gemma Allen: well

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: indeed, thats awful

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: in christianity it was the union of church with political power

[13:21] Gemma Allen: like the bible maybe not literal

[13:21] itsme Frederix: Belief, religion - makes up a story including cause & theodice

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: mh - but from what itsme?

[13:21] herman Bergson: That is the big problem Gemma....

[13:22] itsme Frederix: Ciska we need stories!

[13:22] Gemma Allen: yep

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: yes ... we need stories.. what do we need them for?

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: i think... we need them mostly for our emotions

[13:22] herman Bergson: on the one hand --they say -- there is the bible, quran or whatever book and on the other hand there are people interpreting it...

[13:22] itsme Frederix: tell me your story

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: so thats the psychological aspect

[13:23] Gemma Allen: exactly

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:23] Gemma Allen: and no court to decide

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: we rationalize emotions in form of stories

[13:23] Gemma Allen: the correct

[13:23] herman Bergson: exactly Gemma

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and many people interpret it wrong and use it as mean of oppression

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: very common with islam

[13:24] Zanicia: 'Christianity' is such a foul corruption. The term came to represent those who followed the Christ, originally. But he never pointed to any set religeion...just to the Almighty Creator himself. It is the people who abused that first label who do diabolical acts to other human beings. That typifies all man-made religions to me. God MUST be separated from all these different ideolologies.

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: and to gain power

[13:24] herman Bergson: there you state the probem Bejiita....WHAT is the wrong interpretation and who decides on that?

[13:24] Laila Schuman: the stories are really poetry..and need to be understood as the poet understands...

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: yes Laila - thats how i see it too

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: they try to express something we have no language for otherwise

[13:24] Laila Schuman: ye

[13:24] Laila Schuman: yes

[13:24] Dag: I wonder if we can assume that the human mind is subject of evolution and go beyond the religions, all of them

[13:24] Tomi Eiren: i have a friend in an muslim country and he told me that growing up, homosexual activity is somewhat accepted as just growing up. he lives is saudi arabia O.o that confuses me lol

[13:25] Zanicia: any comment on what I just said?

[13:25] herman Bergson: That is indeed the big question Dag

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: interesting point

[13:25] Mikki Louise: Who then is to do the separation though, Zanicia?

[13:26] herman Bergson: Indeed Mikki

[13:26] Zanicia: Us of course....sorry that was a long comment before

[13:26] Mikki Louise: and who or what is God if not defined through human terms?

[13:27] herman Bergson: If the only tool available is the human mind....where then and how is this god known?

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ''

[13:27] herman Bergson: speperate from interpretations of texts

[13:27] herman Bergson: This is my questio about Buddhism too.....

[13:28] herman Bergson: how was it possible to reach this Enlightment?

[13:28] Gemma Allen: a long time undr the tree

[13:28] itsme Frederix: so the topic is "suffer", we've to suffer (or in other terms its asad story)

[13:28] herman Bergson: How was it possible to know that THAT was the most deisred state of being?

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: well there you have one core problem of humanity from my point of view herman

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: we want something everyone can check back and say - thats it

[13:28] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:28] Gemma Allen: never happens

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: but its only something you can experience

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: thats what at least i understand right now

[13:29] Gemma Allen: my answer is that we need a good invasion of aliens ... then mankind will come together

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: hahahah gemma

[13:29] herman Bergson: And that is the questionable thing Ciska.....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe i guess so

[13:29] Gemma Allen: not so funny think about it

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: something like that

[13:29] herman Bergson: who tells me what experience is the right experience and how can that other know this?

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: well

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: they can leave their ray guns and invasion plans at home however

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: thats the thing

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: buddha answers that with the 4 reliances

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: want to meet kind aliens if anu

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: any

[13:30] Gemma Allen: remember we are nto talking about a religion here with buddhism

[13:30] Gemma Allen: a way of life

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Gemma.....and a way of thinking about life

[13:31] itsme Frederix: back to the topic

[13:31] Zanicia: so is 'proper' Christianity

[13:31] herman Bergson: and the starting point is There is suffering

[13:31] Dag: now is the experience maybe not the right term

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed buddhism is more a lifestyle then a relgion

[13:31] Dag: I would rather speak of the content of our consciousness

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: something in between these 2 i guess

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: for me buddhism tries to seperate the mindstories from sweeping the floor

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Dag

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: yes dag - but conciousness can only be experienced

[13:32] Gemma Allen: many athiests and christians and others practice buddhism

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: you must do it yourself

[13:32] Zanicia: MUST?

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: so its an action - hence an experience

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: well if you want to of course ,)

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: if you do not - you will not experience it

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: its as simple as that

[13:33] itsme Frederix: Ciska tautology "experience consiousness" or not - good question I guess

[13:33] Dag: no I mean... the experience is the same as the content

[13:33] herman Bergson: which assumes that there IS something special to experience Ciska :-)

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] Dag: how I feel or what I think IS the consciousness

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:34] Zanicia: yes

[13:34] herman Bergson: Your personal consciousness Dag, yes

[13:34] Dag: yes of course

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: is what you think always concious dag?

[13:35] herman Bergson: tho every man has a conscious, he never will experience what you esperience

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: no, you can not feel what someone else feels, at least not directly

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: as little as you can read someone elses mind

[13:35] herman Bergson: And yet we have to live together as social beings

[13:35] itsme Frederix: do we?

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: you can have similar experiences and feelings

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: yes - and in my opinion that leads to religion

[13:36] herman Bergson: and adopting some set of ideas and philosophies of live is a way to do so

[13:36] herman Bergson: not necessarily to religion

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: well - but it can organize a good amout of people

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: in the past it did

[13:36] herman Bergson: Like Buddhism or the Stocics for instance have no theology

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: not good

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: but it did

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: so there is the motivation for me to built it

[13:37] itsme Frederix: @Herman, what about addressing chat to @herman - sometimes I guess there ar more threads in this conversation (excuse me, I'll be silent for a while)

[13:38] herman Bergson: I see Itsme...

[13:38] herman Bergson: I am not familiar with this method

[13:38] herman Bergson: I guess you have apoint here

[13:39] herman Bergson: SO the method is to say @itsme if I respond to your remark Itsme?

[13:39] itsme Frederix: @Herman YEP

[13:39] Gemma Allen: where

[13:39] Gemma Allen: here?

[13:39] Chantal: @ all Yes ㋡

[13:39] Gemma Allen: or is he talking facebook?

[13:40] herman Bergson: I did it in some way, by mentioning the name of someone now and then in my reaction ..:-)

[13:40] itsme Frederix: @all, wecan use names, like in vocal conversation - but more peculiar doing chat.

[13:40] herman Bergson: @ gemma...no here ^_^

[13:40] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:40] Gemma Allen: hopes i can adjust

[13:40] Gemma Allen: need a practice session

[13:41] herman Bergson: lol yes....after 500 lectures of "misbehavior" in chat :-))

[13:41] Gemma Allen: right

[13:41] Chantal: ㋡

[13:41] Mikki Louise: it would make it easier to follow the various threads that spark off... but hope we can avoid @all when speaking generally ㋡

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hahah

[13:41] Gemma Allen: well you dont use caps as much as you used to have to do it

[13:41] Zanicia: I see----said the blind man. You might say that was Enlightenment. (changing the subject back)

[13:41] itsme Frederix: @Herman, not that bad - I reminmeber this was one of the ancient rules

[13:42] Gemma Allen: here ?

[13:42] herman Bergson: never here in class....

[13:42] Gemma Allen: not while i was here

[13:42] Gemma Allen: no

[13:42] Gemma Allen: and that is ancient history

[13:42] Laila Schuman: nods

[13:42] itsme Frederix: @Zanica, good point. So do you have to be blind to see?

[13:42] herman Bergson: There...you see..even here in class life eventually ends up in suffering :-))

[13:43] Chantal: hehehe

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: lol, yes

[13:43] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:43] Dag: lol...not so bad really

[13:43] herman Bergson: Maybe Buddhea was right ^_^

[13:43] Zanicia: Some people are blind all their lives. Mentally

[13:43] Laila Schuman: we are wayyyyyyyyy off subject folks

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:43] Gemma Allen: yes

[13:43] Frost: 0o

[13:43] herman Bergson smiles

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but it is fun with a little chaos

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] Dag: anyways, the problem that all religions bring in is conditioning of the mind

[13:44] herman Bergson: The point is that Buddha sets a specific perspective on life....

[13:44] herman Bergson: where the starting point is suffering and the endpoint nirvana

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aa

[13:45] Laila Schuman: and our desires/expectations are the culprits

[13:45] itsme Frederix: @H thats not bad, that good and optimistic, isn't it?

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Dag, but that is inevitable

[13:45] Dag: inevitable, but so many don’t see that

[13:45] herman Bergson: like we have political parties ..political perpectives....

[13:46] Dag: yes all that mess

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hehe inded

[13:46] herman Bergson: But the point for me is that this conditioning at present is such acomplete chaos....

[13:46] Zanicia: Can you see that ending in Nirvana?

[13:46] herman Bergson: while in the Capitalist world the conditioning only seems to be focused on material greed

[13:47] Dag: true

[13:47] Gemma Allen: wow jangle

[13:47] herman Bergson: Even the Chinese do it :-)

[13:48] Jangle McElroy: Greetings. Apologies for my late arrival.

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: indeed, the party in Sweden ruling now for ex only care about the rich and the ones already having a job although they describe them selves as the "work party"

[13:48] herman Bergson: But the point of Buddha and other theories, which evolved into religions, believe that eventually there is just one final perspective

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: they don’t help people getting work at all instead they punish them making them even poorer

[13:48] Zanicia: same in Italy

[13:49] itsme Frederix: Well Herman, a final perspetive is truth of life! So thats no argument against!

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: that's suffering again Bejiita

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes...if you think in terms of tribes...there is a a new tribe emerging in the Capitalst world...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: very real suffering for sure

[13:49] herman Bergson: the tribe of the (super) rich and wealthy...

[13:49] Gemma Allen: yep

[13:49] Zanicia: yes

[13:50] Laila Schuman: Ayn Rand... a point of view

[13:50] Gemma Allen: is almost like the feudal times coming back in a way

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: we need a Robin hood here in sweden now i think

[13:50] Gemma Allen: everywhere

[13:50] itsme Frederix: I guess  Buddha would say "let them be, and go your own way"

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50] herman Bergson: That is why I am not a Buddhist Itsme :-)

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: thats the point - buddha would guestion the intention in following such ;)

[13:51] Gemma Allen: beertjie

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: smiles....

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: I forgot....

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: again///

[13:51] Dag: at the very moment that I believe in the final perspective I create conflict in myself

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok

[13:51] herman Bergson: In what way Dag?

[13:52] Dag: because of the desire to reach it

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: well indeed its hard coming to one single point (nirvana) if there is chaos

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cause chaos just mixes around

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: liiem in a blender

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: like

[13:52] herman Bergson: Maybe such final state is like trying to cath the horizon

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: maybee

[13:53] herman Bergson: catch

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: but we can at least try

[13:53] Dag: but the only thing that matters is the actual state, isnt it

[13:53] itsme Frederix: @all, nice meting you bye.

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ok bye then Itsme

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:53] herman Bergson: Take care Itsme :-)

[13:53] Jangle McElroy: Good bye.

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu

[13:54] Dag: bye itsme

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: bye itsme

[13:54] Gemma Allen: see you soon

[13:54] Gemma Allen: we hope

[13:54] herman Bergson whispers: Well..I guess we have stirred our minds with enough thoughts today :0

[13:54] Gemma Allen: yes

[13:54] herman Bergson: Enough for a whole weekend

[13:54] Zanicia: hehe

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman ㋡ thanx all

[13:55] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Gemma Allen: yes

[13:55] herman Bergson: So ...thank you al  again for your nice participation...

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:55] Gemma Allen: hope to be here Tuesday

[13:55] Frost: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Zanicia: Thank you Herman

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: yes, very nice again

[13:55] Jangle McElroy: Thanks

[13:55] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:55] Dag: tyvm herman

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: :)¨

[13:55] Zanicia: Bye Bye for now

[13:55] Tomi Eiren: Thank you ^^

[13:56] Jangle McElroy: Bye Gemma too :)

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: good weekend everyone ㋡

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: same to you

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: thanx

[13:56] Chantal: TP is not working

[13:56] Jangle McElroy: It's quite a walk home