598: Back again....!

Welcome to you all again. Glad to see you and thank you for your patience to quote an old adagium of Linden Lab.

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I had to deal with major events in my First Life. Selling a house, buying a new one….the amount of stress…! 

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Legal and financial issues, moving. Don’t ask me….but it is all over now (to quote the Rolling Stones) :-)

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It all started here on this globe and I moved from a place where I lived for 38 years to a place 235 km away from it…

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And believe me, I am happy about it, even tho it disrupts your whole daily life for months. But we are here again.!

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I lived in a part of my country where people speak dialects I do not understand. Fortunately the people also are capable of speaking common Dutch.

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Yet, tho I lived and worked there for more than 38 years with real pleasure, it subconsciously feels as if you are a stranger in your own country. You do not fit in, because you do not speak the dialect(s)….

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Now I live where I feel at home…near Amsterdam and the other big cities like Rotterdam and The Hague.

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All boxes are unpacked now and eventually my brain is too, so it is about time to resume our normal SLife again.

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What was our subject? Ahh yes…Existentialism and Free Will. The quintessence of this project is, however, 

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that we as European/Anglo-American people see ourselves as individuals with our individual rights.

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So what I try to analyse and understand is, what we use to call is individualism. According to the dictionary it means 

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“Belief in the primary importance of the individual and in the virtues of self-reliance and personal independence”

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or “a social theory advocating the liberty, rights, or independent action of the individual”.

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More scientifically formulated along the lines of thought of Max Weber in his “Economy and Society” (1922) it amounts to the idea,

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that social phenomena must be explained by showing how they result from individual actions, .

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which in turn must be explained through reference to the intentional states that motivate the individual actors.

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Thus we could come to the observation, that existentialism is based on free will which as such shapes the individual and thence society, that is, our culture.

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But, as we have seen, the birth of the individual happened much earlier in history….around 1600, when we accepted that we, according to Kepler,  were NOT the centre of the universe

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and where Descartes concluded, that the only thing left to him in absolute doubt was the certainty of his own individual mind.

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Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679) showed how individuals can live in a society. According to him, society is a population beneath a sovereign authority, 

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to whom all individuals in that society cede some rights for the sake of protection. The individuals are thereby the authors of all decisions made by the sovereign.

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John Locke (1632 -1704) added the feature of personal inalienable rights to the individual. Thus John Locke can be seen as the father of liberal individual.

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We easily take all these developments for granted, but it confronts us also with the question: 

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why does Western civilisation focus on the individual, why did this evolve in Europe, why not in other cultures?

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And perhaps an even trickier question….. is this a sign of evolutionary progress of the mind/brain or just some accidental  event?

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I think, that this brings us right back on focus again and revives our thoughts and ideas regarding this project.

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I feel, that my brain is picking up speed again, so we are ready to continue our project on the individual.

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Thank you for your attention for now….plz the floor is yours again….^_^

The Discussion

[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): were you in a hurry?

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks about the European culture before that time

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Feels indeed like individualism is something a bit isolated

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): culture play a part too

[13:26] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I think wealth is the cradle of individuality and probably education.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was it just an escape from medieval life?

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for the individual

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who was always under a supervising king

[13:27] herman Bergson: Maybe I should remind you of this diagram....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just look how it is now in the world, suicide bombers who blow people up, rape and torture people and similar, or is this something that have overwritten their evolution making them into monsters

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think its weird

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and scary

[13:27] Door Deluxe Plus: handy Bade has just entered your land !

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how people can become like that

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hi handy

[13:28] herman Bergson: I think this diagram tells you, Bejita...

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:28] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): If you get taught hatred Bejiita... from baby time on... its probably very easy

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was then

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so

[13:28] herman Bergson: the individual is the most lonely person on this planet...

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not only under the king but the church too

[13:29] herman Bergson: but biologically he comes from far....

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:29] herman Bergson: from a common belief shared with others....

[13:29] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): (agrees with you though on the scary part etc) @ Bejiita

[13:29] herman Bergson: about existence and the universe...

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:30] herman Bergson: if he looses that he still has the belief in his tribe

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): actually if you go back in history and look

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ☆*¨¨*<♥*''*BEJIITA!!! *''*<♥:*¨¨*☆

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there has always been some form of terrorist

[13:30] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): gosh I am lonely... as it seems

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was frightening

[13:30] herman Bergson: The basic feeling in a human is the we versus the others felling....

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true

[13:31] herman Bergson: but the we can only exist based on the belief in a religion...or a tribe...or a nation or a family...

[13:31] herman Bergson: and if those are not there anymore...those believes, I mean...you are an individual

[13:32] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Majority that is, herman, right

[13:32] herman Bergson: then you have to define your existence , understand it, understand reality...

[13:32] herman Bergson: and the only thing you have is science

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:33] herman Bergson: just common sense knowledge actually...laws of physics

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if we believed in science instead of religion my feel is world would have been much better

[13:33] herman Bergson: you can deny and ignore any religion or belief...but never the laws of physics

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you don’t blow each other up over science

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure of that bejiitaa

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also science is fact

[13:34] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Smiles, some do ㋡

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh i think some do

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well not everyone is like the ones at CERN and NASA i gues

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡

[13:35] herman Bergson: if it were that simple...

[13:35] herman Bergson: Science is about causality.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: cause and effect....

[13:35] herman Bergson: A causes B...

[13:35] herman Bergson: so when you see A you know B will show up...

[13:36] herman Bergson: but that means..absolute determinism....

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is B always the opposite of A?

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I don’t believe much in different gods someone state exist but if i get some CERN data like the one i showed before or watch something from NASA then i believe it because its been analysed and they always try to state true fact and if they are not 100% sure they say so

[13:36] herman Bergson: the result of A, beertje...

[13:36] herman Bergson: A veroorzaakt B

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok, dankjewel

[13:37] herman Bergson: The problem is....

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also they describe very well what they do in those papers

[13:37] herman Bergson: if we acccept that view, we would be deterministic machines ourselves....

[13:37] herman Bergson: especially the neuroscientists have to deal with this problem....

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:38] herman Bergson: and thence with free will

[13:38] herman Bergson: we'll deal with that later :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson: so...on the one hand I am inclined to accept that the individual is a stage in darwinian evolution...but also that science as such is not the whole story for the individual to accept life as something meaningful

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not the entire story maybe

[13:40] herman Bergson: no....but I also reject such ideas which are called spirituality....

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: i think science is ongoing in learning itself

[13:41] herman Bergson: of course Gemma...

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its better to believe in something you can see and check (science) vs religion (where i bet noone ever have really seen a god and it probably was just a nightmare or hallucination)

[13:41] herman Bergson: that is a good start Bejiita, if you ask me :-))

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] herman Bergson: Well..I think we are back in business again...:-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:42] herman Bergson: And yes chantal, I WAS in a hurry to get there :-))

[13:42] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡

[13:43] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): we noticed ㋡

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has been a while yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: Almost lost practice :-)

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:43] herman Bergson: But here we are again....:-)

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you did well

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:43] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Applauds ㋡

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope i can make it Thursday

[13:44] herman Bergson: SO..thank you all for your attention, dear friends...:-)

[13:44] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you for your wisdom ㋡

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu thursday then I guess

[13:44] herman Bergson: I'll be there on Thursday, gemma :-))

[13:44] CB Axel: I did miss these discussions. °͜°

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now I’m gonna plow through some more ATLAS experiment data

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, they are nice

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bejiita

[13:44] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Enjoy everyone, till Thursday ㋡

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): .)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:45] herman Bergson: But be back in time on Thursday!

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman and a goodnight to you all

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu all soon ㋡

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye

[13:45] CB Axel: Good bye, everyone. It was nice seeing you all again. °͜°

[13:45] herman Bergson: Bye CB

597: The subconscious individual invented...

The development of how man defined himself as an individual got a new impulse by Sigmund Freud (1856 – 1939).

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Hobbes saw the individual person driven by self-interest. Locke made him more friendly. Descartes shifted the focus to individual consciousness.

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Kierkegaard added the suffering and Nietzsche gave him the will to power as his driving force.

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With Darwin the individual person lost his soul and became a fully integrated part of nature. And there comes Sigmund Freud.

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He gave the individual person a psyche and most important he gave us the Unconscious. The individual mind became an object of scientific study.

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An important influence on Freud came from the field of physics. The second fifty years of the nineteenth century saw monumental advances in contemporary physics, 

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which were largely initiated by the formulation of the principle of the conservation of energy by Helmholz. .

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This principle states, in effect, that the total amount of energy in any given physical system is always constant, 

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that energy quanta can be changed but not annihilated, and that consequently when energy is moved from one part of the system, it must reappear in another part.

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Freud was the first to define the individual person as a system of energy, "psychic energy," and he assumed, that the human personality is also an energy-system, 

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and that it is the function of psychology to investigate the modifications, transmissions and conversions of psychic energy 

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within the personality which shape and determine it. This latter conception is the very cornerstone of Freud’s psychoanalytic theory.

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Again it is interesting to notice, that such a way of thinking about the person only developed in Western culture.

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The behaviour of the individual person is no longer only a subject of ethical debates, but now has become an object of scientific research.

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Psychology as a science has developed in many directions since Freud, but he was the one who gave the individual person his psyche, made a scientific object of the mind .

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These days, however, the scientific status of Freud’s theory of psycho-analysis is seriously questioned. 

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On the question of what makes a theory a genuinely scientific one, Karl Popper’s criterion of demarcation, as it is called, has now gained very general acceptance: 

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namely, that every genuine scientific theory must be testable, and therefore falsifiable, at least in principle.

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One of Freud’s inspirational sources was the causal world of physics. However, his theory offers little with respect to falsifiability.

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The difficulty with Freud’s theory is that it offers us entities, for example repressed unconscious conflicts which are said to be the unobservable causes of certain forms of behavior 

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But there are no correspondence rules for these alleged causes. They cannot be identified except by reference to the behavior which they are said to cause, 

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that is, the psycho-analyst does not demonstratively assert: "This is the unconscious cause, and that is its behavioral effect;" 

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rather he asserts: "This is the behavior, therefore its unconscious cause must exist", and this does raise serious doubts as to whether Freud’s theory offers us genuine causal explanations at all.

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Nevertheless his theory had great impact on our culture and on the way we think about the individual. 

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Thank you….if you have any questions or remarks, the floor is yours.

The Discussion

[13:33] MT Mimulus: I'm reminded of one defence of religion that if there is a creation, there must be a creator.

[13:33] herman Bergson: YEs but who concluded that there IS a creation?

[13:34] MT Mimulus: Freud seems to be saying an effect must have a cause, and then creates causes on that basis.

[13:34] MT Mimulus: That's the question :-)

[13:34] herman Bergson: Exactly...

[13:35] herman Bergson: Many don't regard the theory of psycho-analysis as scientific nowadays

[13:35] herman Bergson: however....

[13:35] herman Bergson: a lot of people are treated  according to that theory...

[13:35] herman Bergson: and here we have an issue....

[13:35] CB Axel: But do they get better?

[13:36] CB Axel: Are their lives improved?

[13:36] herman Bergson: there is a difference between the truth of a theory and the utility of a theory

[13:36] MT Mimulus: Yes

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:36] MT Mimulus: Some would get better because they have someone to talk to.

[13:36] MT Mimulus: But maybe that's an oversimplification.

[13:36] CB Axel: That's my theory, MT.

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is what I am inclined to think too MT...

[13:37] herman Bergson: I call it the vitamin A effect.... A = attention :-)

[13:37] CB Axel: If we would all just listen to each other maybe we wouldn't need psychoanalysis.

[13:37] MT Mimulus: I think that's right CB

[13:38] CB Axel: I'm sorry. What did you say? I wasn't listening. LOL

[13:38] MT Mimulus: haha

[13:38] herman Bergson: No CB...we just need attention....

[13:38] herman Bergson: although there are psychic disorders....real psychoses...

[13:38] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): and a compliment, now and than

[13:38] MT Mimulus: Yes, definitely.

[13:38] CB Axel: Yes, but are they problems with personality or chemical disorders?

[13:39] herman Bergson: We can not ignore psychic diseases....like depression for instance...

[13:39] MT Mimulus: Medication seems to be used more now.

[13:39] CB Axel: I tend to believe they are chemical disorders.

[13:39] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I feel the same CB

[13:39] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Not all but yes

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes CB I agree....a malfunctioning of the brain...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:40] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): or the lack of something

[13:40] herman Bergson: Freud's ideas are obsolete....

[13:40] herman Bergson: to some extend he was right...

[13:40] herman Bergson: we carry traumas from our past into the future which reflect in our behaviour...

[13:40] herman Bergson: I guess that is true...

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:41] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I am sure it is... as does dna

[13:41] herman Bergson: but present neurobiology explains the functioning of the brain much better

[13:41] MT Mimulus: There is still a great deal to learn, I think.

[13:41] CB Axel: But do the traumas from our past change our brain chemistry, or does our chemistry affect the way we react to trauma?

[13:42] herman Bergson: oh yes MT....

[13:42] herman Bergson: No CB....traumas create behavioral patterns....

[13:42] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I wish they would have been more careful with Einstein's brain... until we would have more knowledge. Like archaeologists nowadays do... keep it for the future professionals and technology

[13:42] MT Mimulus: There are many things to consider beside genetics - diet, environmental poisons and so on

[13:42] herman Bergson: I don’t think it has anything to do with brain chemistry...

[13:44] herman Bergson: but the main point today is that Freud made us even more individual....

[13:44] MT Mimulus: We take being a unique individual for granted - its difficult to imagine thinking another way.

[13:45] herman Bergson: That is the main theme of this project MT....

[13:45] herman Bergson: This idea of individualism is a typical Western thing....

[13:46] herman Bergson: due to this individualism we developed from the Renaissance into what we are now...

[13:46] herman Bergson: and this process you do not see in other cultures on this earth....

[13:47] herman Bergson: to me that is an astonishing observation....

[13:47] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Does it have to do with evolution, you think?

[13:47] MT Mimulus: It is.

[13:47] herman Bergson: is this evolution?

[13:47] herman Bergson: are we wrong

[13:47] herman Bergson: are they wrong?

[13:47] herman Bergson: name it..

[13:47] MT Mimulus: Is there a right and wrong?

[13:47] herman Bergson: what is best for mankind?

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well we have to look at it from a Darwinian point of view...

[13:48] herman Bergson: are the individualists the fittest to survive on this globe?

[13:48] MT Mimulus: Yes, from that point of view, our way is successful.

[13:48] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): They are not

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: interesting question indeed

[13:49] herman Bergson: That is what concerns me all the time in this project...

[13:50] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Unless they became capable of working together without looking for differences but rather work with similarities

[13:50] CB Axel: I don't think North Koreans see themselves as individuals but as parts of the North Korean machine. Are they more successful? I don't think so.

[13:50] MT Mimulus: Its a difficult question - I don't know the purpose of life to begin with, if there is one.

[13:50] MT Mimulus: Aside from survival.

[13:50] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I don't think so either, CB :(

[13:50] herman Bergson: Indeed CB...that is my point too

[13:51] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Everything in life is about balance, I think

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well MT putting energy in survival isnt that bad :-))

[13:51] MT Mimulus: True :-)

[13:51] MT Mimulus: But just surviving isn't enough.

[13:52] herman Bergson: MT....you arent busy with only surviving every day are you...

[13:52] herman Bergson: I hope you to o have some fun :-))

[13:52] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Lots of people are

[13:52] MT Mimulus: No, in fact many have habits that are against survival.

[13:53] herman Bergson: Are you referring to my pipe MT?????

[13:53] MT Mimulus: haha, no.

[13:53] CB Axel: LOL

[13:53] MT Mimulus: I was thinking more of gun cultures, poor diets, even warfare.

[13:53] herman Bergson: That no saved you an F, MT !

[13:53] MT Mimulus: Phew

[13:54] herman Bergson grins

[13:54] herman Bergson: It is always the same story.....

[13:54] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thanks everyone, for a great last one of 2015! Jumps to bed ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: Darwin showed us the reality of evolution....

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): truste Chantal

[13:54] MT Mimulus: Yes

[13:55] herman Bergson: oh dear..sweet dreams Chantal

[13:55] MT Mimulus: Getting late in the Netherlands.

[13:55] herman Bergson: but evolution thinks in terms of 10.000th of years regarding changes....

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, I have to go too, it's bedtime

[13:55] CB Axel: Good night, Beertje.

[13:55] MT Mimulus: Yes, that's true.  I hope we survive another 10,000

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight every one

[13:56] herman Bergson: our handicap is that we are too much inclined to think in some years regarding changes....

[13:56] MT Mimulus: Bye Beertje

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: bye beertje

[13:56] MT Mimulus: Our own lifetime is short.

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: indeed evolution takes an eternity almost

[13:56] herman Bergson: yes

[13:57] CB Axel: I would be most curious to see what mankind looks like in 10,000 years.

[13:57] MT Mimulus: Me too

[13:57] herman Bergson: We should meet again in ...say ...10.000 years and then see what mankind is like :-)

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:57] CB Axel: Let's invent a time machine.

[13:57] MT Mimulus: Good idea, but we may be insects.

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:57] herman Bergson: ahh you had the same thought CB

[13:57] CB Axel: Bejiita, you're the physicist. I leave that up to you. °͜°

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: Ill ask CERN if they can turn LHC into one or build something similar

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: would be cool traveling in time

[13:58] CB Axel nods

[13:58] MT Mimulus: It really would

[13:58] herman Bergson: very serious philosophical problem Bejiita...lots of paradoxes there

[13:58] MT Mimulus: Yes, but great science fiction.

[13:58] herman Bergson: Oh I love it MT :-))

[13:59] MT Mimulus: :-)

[13:59] herman Bergson: Well....

[13:59] herman Bergson: time for me to wish you all a happy new year :-)

[13:59] MT Mimulus: And to you too.

[13:59] herman Bergson: for I wont see you untillit is 2016 :-)

[13:59] CB Axel: Yes!

[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:59] CB Axel: I can't believe 2015 is almost over.

[14:00] MT Mimulus: Thank you for your patience - I know little about philosophy or psychology.

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: this was nice again,

[14:00] herman Bergson: Big things still to happen to me in 2015 CB :-)

[14:00] CB Axel: Have a carefree and safe move, Herman. I'll see you all in January.

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: cu thn, happy moving now herman

[14:00] herman Bergson: You don’t need to MT...

[14:00] MT Mimulus: Bye all and good night :-)

[14:00] CB Axel: MT, that's why we're here.

[14:01] CB Axel: Good bye, fellahs. °͜°

[14:01] herman Bergson: True CB:-)

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: cu in 2016 then

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: and some of you maybee sooner

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:01] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita:-)

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: good luck now Herman ㋡

[14:02] herman Bergson: I'll stay online yet....

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: ok

[14:02] herman Bergson: but I can not concentrate on preparing lectures :-)

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: aa it takes a while i guess

[14:02] herman Bergson: to much to arrange....organize...pack...

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: moving is lot of work

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: is

[14:03] herman Bergson: yes it is :-)

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: got to head out now but cu

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:03] herman Bergson: ok...be well:-)

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: you too

596: The individual and Nietzsche

Last week I was reading “Individualism and Economic Order” by Friedrich A. Hayek. It was published in 1949.

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Then it is always so rewarding that someone thinks along the same lines as I do, although he was first, but I hadn’t read him till now :-)

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So …at least a few credits to myself. It was the first essay: Individualism: True and False.

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There he discusses the concept of individualism as it originated from John Locke on the one hand and from Descartes on the other hand.

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In fact the same dichotomy I make between Locke cum suis and the Continental philosophers. I have the same ideas about the concept of individualism.

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I’ll get back to Hayek later of course. Now, however, we continue with the Continental philosophers and in this case Friedrich Nietzsche.

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Like Kierkegaard Nietzsche wasn't a systematic philosopher, a philosopher with a consistent ontological, epistemological or metaphysical overall theory.

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He too, like Kierkegaard would have in SL at least one alt avatar with whom he permanently would argue and discuss his own ideas.

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The philosophical development of Nietzsche can be divided in three phases: the first phase is the period 

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when he adored Schopenhauer and Wagner and the culture of the old Greek. A mix of Schopenhauerian pessimism and Wagnerian heroism.

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The Will is for Schopenhauer the principle of life and it is what drives man. But we are at the mercy of this Will. 

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Its restless striving for changes is rather a source of misery than of happiness. The only way to gain the victory over this will is

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to concentrate on contemplation of it in a way you could compare with the buddhist approach to life.......

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Nietzsche's first book was "The Birth of Tragedy" and dealt with Greek tragedies, in which the hero acts self-confident and powerful, but also has the power to comply to fate, that befalls him.

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Man is submitted to powers stronger than he is himself, and to that he has to adjust his will. Yet he has to live in full passion. 

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And here Nietzsche makes the contrast between the Dionysian and Appolonian way.

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He celebrates the Greek who, facing up to the terrors of nature and history, did not seek refuge in "a Buddhistic negation of the will"  (Appolonian), as Schopenhauer did, 

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but instead created tragedies in which life is affirmed as beautiful in spite of everything (Dionysian).

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Here you see, that Nietzsche was not just a simple disciple of Schopenhauer, but clearly chooses an other conclusion than the master. 

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Man as the maker of his own existence with the will to power. There he was THE individual: the Übermensch.  

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No need for a god. God was dead, as Nietzsche wrote. 

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Thank you…the floor is yours with your remarks and questions…

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The Discussion

[13:17] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma) claps

[13:17] herman Bergson: The individual as the hero...creator of his own life due to his wil to power

[13:17] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): I guess he was right

[13:18] herman Bergson: Well..indeed I feel kind of a hero indeed Daruma :-)

[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): lol

[13:18] CB Axel: I disagree with the idea that man is constantly striving for change.

[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no we are all the leaders of our lives.

[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no one else.

[13:18] CB Axel: At least, not all men.

[13:18] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): we can not blame anything to others.

[13:19] herman Bergson: What do you mean by change CB?

[13:19] CB Axel: Conservatives want to keep things the same if not regress to an earlier (probably imagined) time.

[13:20] herman Bergson: I see...

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:20] Areyn Laurasia: Anything that is constant would stagnate...

[13:20] herman Bergson: But for Nietzsche life is a creative process...

[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true Areyn

[13:20] herman Bergson: so things change...

[13:20] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja life flows

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): thats a totally natural thing

[13:21] herman Bergson: Just suppose you would be conservative in medicines?

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: progress is a good thing in most cases

[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): and we humans are only a part of nature

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: if not all cases

[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): what cases?

[13:21] CB Axel: Oh, I agree. Progress is good, but not all people feel that way.

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:21] herman Bergson: Tricky statement Bejiita....progress...

[13:21] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true cb. thats the problem in life^^

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: the opposite of what conservatives want

[13:22] herman Bergson: are we talking about progress of change...

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: which is stagnation

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: but progress can be different i guess

[13:22] herman Bergson: you could say that change, which increases our chance to survive may be defined as progress..yes

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: both good and bad

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:23] herman Bergson: I think the "good/bad" you refer to Bejiita is the use of changes...

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hmm

[13:23] herman Bergson: like inventing dynamite was  a change...one the one hand good on theother hand bad

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: progress often sounds like a positive word and then i d say progress is a good thing if thats the case

[13:24] herman Bergson: it is just how you use the changes

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:25] herman Bergson: What we are working on here is the development of the concept of individualism....

[13:25] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): yes, its always interesting to see how people handle with changes in their lifes

[13:25] herman Bergson: of the individual....

[13:25] herman Bergson: and we see two approaches...Schopenhauer and Nietzsche...

[13:26] herman Bergson: The pessimistic and the optimistic individual....

[13:26] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ;-)

[13:26] herman Bergson: both  driven by will

[13:26] herman Bergson: For Schopenhauer the will to survive....

[13:26] herman Bergson: for Nietzsche the will to create..to rule...

[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma):  to create and rule is also something to survive. in my view

[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): perhaps better, than Schopenhauer thinks

[13:27] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ää thought

[13:27] herman Bergson: To my knowledge you don't find this debate in any other culture on earth

[13:27] CB Axel: It sounds like Nietzsche had a comfortable life. He was higher up it Maslow pyramid.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Daruma....but Schopenhauer  focuses on how to bear all misery of life...

[13:28] CB Axel: Schopenhauer was still at the bottom. Just trying to survive.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: sort of

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: a pessimist

[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja, and you can not survive with a negative mind in loife

[13:29] herman Bergson: Nietzsche ignited the torch....and stepped into a future

[13:29] Areyn Laurasia: passive.. *smiles*

[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): life

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why did Schopenhauer focus on misery? what happened to him?

[13:29] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): didn’t he know that?

[13:30] herman Bergson: Beertje..answering that question would violate the privacy of Schopenhauer :-)))

[13:30] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): rofl

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that means you don't know?

[13:30] herman Bergson: lol

[13:30] Areyn Laurasia: brilliant answer ;)

[13:31] herman Bergson: He was an egocentric misogenic man....

[13:31] herman Bergson: or how do you spell that he disliked women a lot...

[13:31] Areyn Laurasia: misogynist?

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he was gay?

[13:31] herman Bergson: He was friendly to animals though...had two dogs...

[13:31] CB Axel: He was free to feel that way, I guess.

[13:31] CB Axel: Two male dogs?

[13:31] CB Axel: hehehe

[13:31] herman Bergson: There is no reference anywhere to that inclination Beertje...

[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): that does not mean anything, when u have animals;-) sadly...

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why did he dislike woman? what did his mother do to him?

[13:32] herman Bergson: I know, Daruma, but I just say it to say at least something positive about his personality :-))

[13:32] CB Axel: I like animals better than people.

[13:32] Areyn Laurasia: perhaps she was too strict on him.. but that's entirely speculative

[13:32] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ok. herman.

[13:33] Areyn Laurasia: but it's true that a lot of religion focus on pain and suffering

[13:33] herman Bergson: There isnt much know about Schopenhauer’s personal psychology....

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: he seems a very special guy

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): something must have happen in his life because he was so negative

[13:34] CB Axel: Yes, but religion focuses on the pain being alleviated after death. It does very little to help people here on Earth.

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: tru

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: e

[13:35] herman Bergson: I wouldn’t say that Beertje...

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: either you go to heaven and play harp or to hell and burn for eternity

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): playing harp all day???? omg

[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: and here I thought Nietzsche was the one who was more negative.. with an nihilistic and tough views

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:35] herman Bergson: which is a warmer environment than all those cold clouds Bejiita :-)

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: haha indeed

[13:36] CB Axel: Wasn't Schopenhauer stuck with trying to fit God into his philosophy?

[13:36] CB Axel: That would make anyone more negative, IMHO.

[13:36] herman Bergson: The nihilism only concerns the existence of moral values....

[13:37] herman Bergson: Nietzsche wasn’t negative about life, I'd say

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: he seems a bit different

[13:37] herman Bergson: Bu tthe interesting point is the idea that man is the creator of his own life....

[13:37] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): dat klopt

[13:38] herman Bergson: that idea now lives in European culture....

[13:38] herman Bergson: For centuries it was god who managed our lives...

[13:38] Areyn Laurasia: who's going to take responsibility for the mess of the world we live in now.. if we are all creators of our own lives?

[13:38] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): happily the staff changed. ;-)

[13:38] herman Bergson: and in islamic countries people still life by the idea.....If Allah allows....

[13:38] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡ Areyn

[13:39] CB Axel: Areyn, it would be nice to be able to blame God.

[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): everyone is responsible. and all together we make what the world is now

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: very true

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well Areyn...I dare say that this world isnt a mess at all....

[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): with our consumption, thoughts and acting in life

[13:39] herman Bergson: ok...there are messy things going on...

[13:39] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no wonder^^

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: maybe I should move where the tulip fields are as well... XD

[13:40] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): no just keep our own garden clean^^

[13:40] herman Bergson: but the number of democratic countries...that is where people CAN create their own live increase steadily

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:40] CB Axel: That's true, Herman. And very encouraging.

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:41] herman Bergson: the number of wars have decreased..tho when you see the news programs you get to  believe that the whole world is at war

[13:41] CB Axel: Today's wars have better marketing. °͜°

[13:41] herman Bergson: that's the point CB!

[13:42] CB Axel: Oh good! I made a point! Yipee!!!

[13:42] herman Bergson: And all that nonsense about the fugitives in Europe....

[13:42] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja media is also very bad today for our living

[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: it does affect us here

[13:42] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): and for our thinking

[13:42] herman Bergson: In the 50s we had people from Hungary...happily integrated....

[13:42] herman Bergson: then we had the fugitives from Serbia, Kosovo...

[13:43] herman Bergson: happily integrated....

[13:43] herman Bergson: now they come from Syria and africa....so what?

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: now Hungaria show them self from their worst side, treating people in need as they all were terrorists and closing all out

[13:43] herman Bergson: We are wealthy , well organized...have alot to offer

[13:43] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Don't be shocked ... http://www.lucify.com/the-flow-towards-europe/

[13:44] herman Bergson: sorry...I let myself go...totally off topic now :-))

[13:44] CB Axel: Ha! You're as bad as the rest of us. LOL

[13:44] herman Bergson: Plz...your questions and remarks :-))

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thanls for the support CB :-)

[13:45] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:45] Areyn Laurasia: at least the fugitives show free will... ^^

[13:46] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): perhaps the answer is, that we all move more south. would be interesting to see what would happen then

[13:46] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): when we don’t mind war or crises

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...we have to face the cultural differences...

[13:47] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true

[13:47] herman Bergson: the newcomers wont be that much used to our individualism perhaps

[13:47] CB Axel: It will be quite a shock to them.

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think that is the problem

[13:47] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): yes, sadly they couldn’t develop themselves as much as we could 

[13:47] Areyn Laurasia: it's a big change

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are free to think what we want

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes...a culture shock indeed

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: trye

[13:48] herman Bergson: But keep thinking of Huntington.....

[13:48] herman Bergson: how he pointed out that our future will be a clash among cultures...

[13:49] Areyn Laurasia: or a celebration of diversity?

[13:49] herman Bergson: That is what is going on today

[13:49] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): i am often in Amsterdam. and Amsterdam is - u know;-) a city with a lot of party, drugs and so on. and i was in a train with a lot of refugees and i thought then after arriving; well - i guess thats not the best town to start a new life with totally different rules

[13:49] CB Axel: Won't the clash be made less of a shock thanks to the internet?

[13:50] herman Bergson: That might be the case indeed..or at least I would hope you are right CB

[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: partly... but imagine having a career, and education and lose all to rely on others generosity

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hmm

[13:50] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thanks everyone for a really interesting one, Herman great! Sleep well everyone ㋡

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: this was great indeed

[13:50] Areyn Laurasia: sweet dreams, Chantal

[13:50] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): night chantal

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Truste Chantal

[13:50] CB Axel: One of my ancestors did that, Areyn.

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: now off to some halloween event

[13:51] herman Bergson: Where Chantal goes we all go :-))

[13:51] CB Axel: Good night, Chantal.

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cu tuesday I hope

[13:51] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): woot bejita

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: So thank you all again...

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:51] CB Axel: Thank you for another interesting discussion, everyone.

[13:51] Areyn Laurasia: Thank you

[13:51] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja dank je wel herman

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:51] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): interesting as always

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel:)

[[13:52] herman Bergson: Your Dutch gets better and better Daruma :-)

[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): i will be here again next thursday

[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): lol herman. i have to learn it better, perhaps i move to amsterdamn next year.

[13:52] Areyn Laurasia: Time to look for a halloween costume..

[13:52] CB Axel: I'll see everyone (except Darum, I guess) on Tuesday.

[13:52] CB Axel: Good bye.

[13:52] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma) waves

[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: good evening all

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): same time tuesday Herman?

[13:53] herman Bergson: Have fun Areyn :-)

[13:53] Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): nini all

[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks

[13:53] herman Bergson: always 1 PM SL TIME

595: The first existentialist... Kierkegaard

If Kierkegaard (1813 -1855) would have had access to SL, he definitely would have had at least six or seven alt avatars, 

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all in constant debate with each other, for that was his method: writing under a lot of pseudonyms.

The reason for this was that he didn’t wanted to build a system, like e.g. Hegel did and an other reason was that his drive to write was pure subjective.

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You could say that he was a talented Danish writer who wanted to criticize the establishment and share tons of questions he had in a Socratic way with a large audience.

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Denmark had recently and very rapidly been transformed from a feudal society into a capitalist society. 

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Universal elementary education, large-scale migration from rural areas into cities, and greatly increased social mobility meant 

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that the social structure changed from a rigidly hierarchical one to a relatively “horizontal” one.  It is the world of the beginning Industrial Revolution.

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That is the world Kierkegaard lived in. His works can not be understood as showing a kind of philosophical system. On the contrary, 

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it is a collection of publications closely related with Kierkegaard as a person and his struggle with being a real christian.

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That is not really a philosophical problem. Let theologians deal with it. Yet Kierkegaard is known as the “father of existentialism”.

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An other puzzling aspect is, that existentialism usually is related with atheism by default. So how should we understand this.

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Kierkegaard himself never used the term existentialism, but yet what made him the first man of that kind of philosophy?

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Philosophically it was probably his fundamental disagreement with the philosophy of Hegel (1770 - 1831), which was popular in those days, especially in the People’s Church of Denmark.

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Hegel reduced the individual to one who is just a part of the dialectic process of thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis.

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According to Kierkegaard it is not some dialectic process but the individual, who constitutes himself as the individual he is 

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through his choice of one mode of existence rather than another. Choice it the core of all human existence.

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The essence of Kierkegaard's concept of choice is that it is criterionless. If criteria determine what I choose, it is not I who makes the choice; hence the choice must be undetermined.

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Although there is little existentialism in the real historical sense of the word in Kierkegaard's thoughts, 

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what is a stricking resemblance is that for Kierkegaard the personal choice, the criterionless choice, is what constitutes the individual's life.

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To quote Kierkegaard himself: "What I really miss is a clear idea in my mind about what I must do, not about what I must know...

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the point is to find a truth which is true for me, to find the idea for which I can live and die".

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If he is regarded as the 'father of existentialism" then it is because he was the first philosopher who made individual truth and individual choice the core of existence.

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Thank you…..any questions or remarks? Feel free…the floor is yours.

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The discussion

[13:15] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine) claps

[13:16] Max Chatnoir: But if you are using criteria to guide your choices, don't you also choose the criteria?

[13:16] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you, you portrayed Kierkegaard as a renewer

[13:16] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): I guess it is the main point in life, to figure out the things which are really important for oneself in life

[13:16] herman Bergson: Only in the 1940s his work was translated  in german...

[13:17] herman Bergson: Good point Max.....

[13:17] Max Chatnoir: It was in English by the late 50's wasn't it?

[13:17] herman Bergson: But suppose that the criteria are formulated by science?

[13:17] herman Bergson: yes

[13:18] herman Bergson: or criteria offered by a Church...

[[13:18] Max Chatnoir: Science isn't generally prescriptive.

[13:18] herman Bergson: They think that this last one was his main concern...

[13:19] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): hi bejita

[13:19] herman Bergson: Hi bejiita :-)

[13:19] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Bejiita ㋡

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: puh finally got home

[13:19] CB Axel: Hi, Bejiita.

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Bejiita

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: been on a sport event with a friend

[13:19] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): oh nice

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: it was ㋡

[13:19] Max Chatnoir: I guess you'd have to decide if you wanted to adhere to the tenets of a particular church.

[13:19] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Hope you had fun ㋡

[13:19] herman Bergson: Kierkegaard was one of the first who made this difference between the individual and "the crowd"

[13:20] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Hi Violet ㋡

[13:20] CB Axel: Hi, Violet.

[13:20] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): hello violet

[13:20] herman Bergson: Hi Violet

[13:20] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Hi Chantal ,CB, Hermine, Herman, all :)

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hello Violet

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: hi

[13:20] herman Bergson: K. chose for the individual and against conformism and stereotypes

[13:21] CB Axel: Why would anyone choose to follow the teaching over a church as opposed to science except out of fear of a god?

[[13:21] Max Chatnoir: I used to meet with a group of people that I really liked and admired.  They were Bahai, and they were doing informational discussions for inquirers.  I thought they really had their heads on straight, but they did have a central prophet figure that you had to agree was an agent of God or something like that.  I couldn't go there.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Well the thing is you first believe in a god, then  you start to fear his punishment and then you obey according to criteria of a church :-)

[13:22] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): ;-)

[13:23] herman Bergson: YEs Bahai is a religion....

[13:23] herman Bergson: In essence Kierkgaard was a theologian....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: think I’ve heard about it

[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Yes, a friend earlier today was talking about his visits to India and the religious wars there between somebody and somebody else.  It just seems always to end in destruction.

[13:24] herman Bergson: but with an individualistic interpretation of how to be a believer

[13:24] herman Bergson: yes...religion has been and still is a cause of war

[13:25] Max Chatnoir: Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to get sidetracked there.

[13:25] herman Bergson: or a means to wage war for other reasons

[13:25] Max Chatnoir: But Kierkegaard was kind of a theologian.

[13:25] herman Bergson: A 100% one :-)

[13:25] herman Bergson: His main concern was how to be a good christian...

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did he get problems with Rome?

[13:26] CB Axel: So Kierkegaard did not believe in one god, or did he believe in God but didn't think we really knew what God wanted us to do?

[13:26] herman Bergson: That they call him the first existentialist thinker....well....not my idea :-)

[13:26] CB Axel: I mean, if you believe in one God, then that one God must have one set of rules for us.

[13:26] Max Chatnoir: So he was developing the criteria that he thought were at least consonant with that tradition.

[13:26] CB Axel: Or does God have a multiple personality disorder?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Well...his main point was that you can not believe based on reason...

[13:27] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): He has more possibilities;-)

[13:28] herman Bergson: there had to be this leap of faith that jumps past reason...

[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Once you abandon reason, you are on shaky ground.

[13:28] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): sorry :( I have an urgent matter to take care off. Enjoy everyone, thank you Herman ㋡

[13:28] CB Axel: Bye, Chantal.

[13:28] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): bye chantal

[13:28] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Waves ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: Don't ask me too much about this....it is not my chapter :-)

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: bye chantal

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): truste Chantal 

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Chantal

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed one who believe in god dont believe in reason but in magic

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: something like that

[13:29] herman Bergson: the only thing I see in Kierkegaard is that he puts the individual in the centre of his existence...creating and defining himself by his choices

[13:29] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): magic is forbidden when u believe in god;-)

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: but gud is supernatural stuff = magic = non existent

[13:30] Max Chatnoir: Reason may be imperfect, but if we walk away from it, we are abandoning what makes us human.

[13:30] herman Bergson: and as such it was an original approach of life in those days

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: gos

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: god

[13:30] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): depends on what u think what magic is;-)

[13:30] CB Axel: I can see why people would reasonably choose God. If they don't know anything else.

[13:30] herman Bergson: I agree Max :-)

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: magic is things that cant be explained bu laws of physics and chemistry or is breaking those said laws which is 100 % impossible to do

[13:31] herman Bergson: The better education the less work for a god I would say :-)

[13:31] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:31] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): magic is the power of thinking. always was, but wrong translations made it to what peeps think now.

[13:32] CB Axel: But Bejiita, back then people didn't know as much as we know now.

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: well that could be 1 possible magic

[13:32] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): and also the will of peeps to see more in it as it is

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: indeed, at that time it was understandable

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: the issue is today in 2015 people still believe in this instead of the scientific knowledge we have today

[13:33] CB Axel: I agree, Bejiita. That's the sad thing.

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and the result is war and death

[13:33] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): there must be a balance between science and believing and knowing things. science is not the answer to everything

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: 3rd world war is raging at moment

[13:33] CB Axel: Is it?

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: IS Boko Haram, Syria

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: well almost at least

[13:34] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): no its not the answer;-)

[13:34] CB Axel: I fell asleep and must have missed it.

[13:34] herman Bergson: If science has no answer we just have to say: I know that I don't know......likek Socrates said :-)

[13:34] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): we forgot our roots and that we are only a opart of nature

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:34] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): and not the leader of the world

[13:35] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): and we all have no answers. only some hints

[13:35] herman Bergson: To some extend Daruma....

[13:35] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): ;-)

[13:35] herman Bergson: We are today well aware of the fact that we are part of nature and the ecosystem, I would say

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yep

[13:36] herman Bergson: that we behave unnatural or against nature is another problem

[13:36] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): yo

[13:36] herman Bergson: not the topic of today ^_*

[13:36] herman Bergson: I guess we are done with Kierkegaard :-))

[13:36] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): tztztz^^

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:37] herman Bergson: So…..thank you all again...:-)

[13:37] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): thank u herman!

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Thanks, Herman, all... Be well :)

[13:37] CB Axel: Thank you, and I'm sorry I was late.

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: cu next time

[13:37] herman Bergson: But feel free to continue the conversation :-)

[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.

[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Hi, CB.

[13:38] CB Axel: Like I said, I fell asleep.

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have to go to sleep now, goodnight all

[13:38] herman Bergson: when CB?

[13:38] CB Axel: I completely missed the start of World War III

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: bye beertje

[13:38] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): ww3 wasn’t interesting

[13:38] CB Axel: I fell asleep about 1 1/2 hours before class.

[13:38] CB Axel: I didn't think I'd sleep long. I was just "resting my eyes."

[13:39] herman Bergson smiles

[13:39] Max Chatnoir: Bible says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" but Kierkegaard was trying to do that.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes...I still don't understand why a god you choose always has to install fear upon you....why not joy and happiness?

[13:40] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): buddha gives joy

[13:41] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): and the minions

[13:41] herman Bergson: no god = no fear = joy and happines :-))

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:41] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): lol

[13:41] Max Chatnoir: Oh, that was the name of one of his books, wasn't it?  Fear and Trembling?

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: as i say SCIENCE ROCKS!

[13:41] herman Bergson: buddha isnt a god....originally not even a religion...just a philosophy of life

[13:41] Max Chatnoir: What Bejiita said.  :-)

[13:41] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): in my world a god is a philosophy.

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: this video proves science make you happy

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Lt9yUf-VY

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:42] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): also the bible is a book of creating your life better

[13:42] herman Bergson: ahh :-)

[13:42] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): well, the original bible...

[13:42] herman Bergson: I'll check it out Daruma :-))

[13:42] Max Chatnoir: Speaking of video, have you seen the video of the jaguar jumping on the crocodile?

[13:42] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): ja ok;-) so Thursday again;-)

[13:43] CB Axel: I'd like to read a reliable translation of the books that make up the Bible and the texts that got edited out of it.

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes Daruma :-)

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:43] herman Bergson: No Max...what was the outcome?

[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Yes, I will hope, as always, to see you Thursday.

[13:43] Max Chatnoir: The jaguar won.

[13:43] CB Axel: OK. I'll see you all on Thursday, and I'll try not to be late.

[13:43] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine) waves wild

[13:43] herman Bergson: \o/

[13:43] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): have a silent night

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: bye CB

[13:43] Max Chatnoir: bit the crocodile on the neck and hauled it off.

[[13:43] herman Bergson: amazing!

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] Hermine Daruma Boa (hermine): bye bye

[13:44] herman Bergson: Bye Daruma