719: Gustav Klimt in Vienna.....

The Vienna Secession was founded on 3 April 1897 by the artist Gustav Klimt (1862 - 1918) and others. 

  

It was an art movement formed by a group of Austrian artists who had resigned from the Association of Austrian Artists, housed in the Vienna Künstlerhaus.

  

Secession artists were concerned, above all else, with the possibilities of art outside the confines of academic tradition. 

    

They hoped to create a new style that owed nothing to historical influence, in keeping with the spirit of turn-of-the-century Vienna , 

  

the time and place that also saw the publication of Freud's first writings.

In Vienna two worlds collided: the old traditional one and the world of artists with new ideas, like Adolf Loos said...

   

Art should wake up people and disturb their comfort zone. Not art for the sake of art anymore.

   

This provocative attitude we also see in the work of Gustav Klimt. For us it is sometimes difficult to see,

   

for when you look at the work of Klimt today, there is nothing shocking in it or provoking. It is just beautiful.

   

But Klimt painted female figures radiating a languishing eroticism. His work can not really be called Freudian: his women were by no means neurotic. 

  

They make a calm, balanced and, above all, lascivious impression, as "the instinctive life frozen in art". 

   

But still: with his emphasis on female sensuality, Klimt suggested that it had not yet been satisfied. As a result, his female figures were threatening. 

    

They were presented as insatiable and without any sense of sin. With this portrayal Klimt also went against the prevailing way of thinking like Freud did. 

  

These were women who seemed capable of any perversity described by Krafft-Ebing, who I mentioned in a previous lecture. 

  

This made them seductive and shocking at the same time. 

  

The whole of Vienna immediately took sides for or against Klimt. The battle culminated in his dispute with the university

  

The university gave him an assignment for three ceiling paintings: Philosophy, Medicine and Jurisprudence.

   

'The victory of light on the dark', according to the university, had to be the theme of Philosophy. 

   

Klimt came with an impenetrable, "inextricable tangle of bodies", as they called it, that seemed to escape the viewer. 

  

It was a kaleidoscopic jumble of forms that were intertwined and surrounded by emptiness. The philosophy professors were deeply indignant.

   

Their accusations were that Klimt had presented 'unclear ideas in unclear forms'. And philosophy was in fact a rational matter; it searched for the truth through the exact sciences. 

  

That was the last thing that Klimt wanted, with the result that his work was not accepted. 

   

Eighty professors signed a petition in which they demanded that the painting should never be shown in the university. 

  

Klimt then returned his fee and did not deliver the other paintings to the University. In the Second World War, the three panels would unfortunately be lost. 

  

Klimt made an important statement with these paintings. How could rationalism, that was his question, win if the irrational, the instinctive is so prevalent in life? 

  

Does rationalism really mean progress? Instincts are older and stronger forces. Certainly, they can be more atavistic and primitive, and even a dark force at times. 

  

But what is the profit if you deny them? Until World War II, this would remain an important question in German thinking.

   

A later painting of Klimt, entitled Goldfish (to my critics) (1901–1902), which showed a smiling, beautiful woman projecting her bottom at the viewer, 

  

was an obvious response to all those who attacked the "pornography" and "perverted excess" of the University paintings.

   

Thank you for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a flasher

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I like those paintings

[13:25] herman Bergson smiles

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe the first

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:26] herman Bergson: Guess you are right Gemma :-)

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he has one painting i am familiar with the lady with a boa

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that one is very usual

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess in those times everyone was terrified of nakedness and similar things

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true Bejiita

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus hated his paintings

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think they are nice

[13:27] herman Bergson: and that is why he painted them, I assume....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Maybe his idea of instinct versus rationality

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): might be

[13:28] herman Bergson: this has become a scientific question indeed....

[13:29] herman Bergson: what are we?

[13:29] herman Bergson: instinct driven or rational beings?

[13:29] CB Axel: I think we're a combination of both.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:29] herman Bergson: in those days philosophers tried to tackle the question....take Nietzsche here for instance

[13:30] herman Bergson: but these days the question is related to the structure of our brain.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: it is no longer a philosophical issue but a neurobiological one

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is very true

[13:31] herman Bergson: We now know the structure of the brain....

[13:31] CB Axel: We have the primitive part of our brain, but we need to use the more evolved part to evaluate our primitive urges and decide whether to give in to them or not.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes CB....a very interesting issue...

[13:32] CB Axel: I think it is still a philosophical issue since we now know about the different parts of the brain and need to decide how to use them together.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:32] CB Axel: We need to think about which we should let dominate in any given circumstance.

[13:32] herman Bergson: I think the problem is more that we do not know how we use them really together CB

[13:33] herman Bergson: Just listen to what you say CB.....very interesting....

[13:33] herman Bergson: We need to think about.......

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can we use them together tho

[13:33] CB Axel: I tend to believe that we should use the more evolved part when we can. There was a reason it developed.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:34] herman Bergson: You create some "higher" me that evaluates the way I use all brain parts in cooperation....

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems logical

[13:34] CB Axel: Unfortunately, when we are under stress, the more primitive parts tend to take over.

[13:34] herman Bergson: ti is almost the homunculus fallacy....

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: It is true what you say CB...

[13:35] herman Bergson: Under stress the reptilian brain kicks in :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): kind of logical

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its like reflexes

[13:36] herman Bergson: I a gree Bejiita....

[13:36] CB Axel: Yeah. A lot like reflexes.

[13:37] herman Bergson: But  what is interesting here is that someone evaluates the functioning  and cooperation of the brain and brain parts

[13:37] herman Bergson: it slips always into our statements...

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is different from before

[13:38] herman Bergson: I think the main problem in such a debate like this is, that we have no clue what consciousness is....

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still

[13:38] herman Bergson: we know we are conscious....

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe¨

[13:39] herman Bergson: the neuroscientists try to make us believe it is our brain....

[13:39] herman Bergson: BUT CB evaluates the actions of the brain....so..transcends the brain...which is because of consciousness

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what if they aer right

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it would be the first time anyone discovered it

[13:40] herman Bergson: then I just say , they are not, Gemma...lol

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok ll

[13:40] CB Axel: Well, it's one part of the brain evaluating another part.

[13:40] CB Axel: Almost like two brains.

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): which part of the brain is conscious?

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes...we all know that....

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is i ok...

[13:40] herman Bergson: but we do not know consciousness....

[13:41] herman Bergson: the only thing we know is that consciousness stops when we are dead...

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hoe do you know Herman?

[13:41] herman Bergson: lol

[13:41] herman Bergson: because other people say so Beertje....

[13:41] CB Axel: That's just what I was going to ask. Many believe that there is life after death. Is that consciousness?

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no one knows

[13:41] herman Bergson: relatives at your funeral :-)

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well since we did not do it yet beertje i agree

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we can believe it

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or not

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like the most fervant religious

[13:42] CB Axel: The inability to communicate with the living doesn't mean the being is unconscious.

[13:43] CB Axel: Just look at locked in syndrome.

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:43] herman Bergson: that is a horrible situation CB.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: but it means that there still is electricity active inthe brain...

[13:44] CB Axel: True

[13:44] herman Bergson: when that stops...you are dead...simple as that, I'd say

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so consciousness is electricity?

[13:44] CB Axel: But you're assuming consciousness comes from the brain.

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that thought reminds me of a chicken after you chop off the head

[13:45] herman Bergson: a driving car isn not just gasoline Beertje

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear

[13:45] herman Bergson: but without it the thing wont move

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): flops around

[13:45] CB Axel: I don't think we can know if consciousness resides in the brain until after we are dead.

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's still a car..

[13:45] CB Axel: And then it will be too late. °͜°

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so we will never know then :)

[13:46] herman Bergson: we know it resides there CB....

[13:46] CB Axel: What consciousness is and when it starts is a big question for me.

[13:46] herman Bergson: But besides that we have a central nervous system....going into all parts of the body....

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:47] herman Bergson: so it means that the brain is not just that grey lump in your head, but in fact your whole body

[13:48] herman Bergson: What consciousness is, CB, is one of our greatest mysteries

[13:48] herman Bergson: at least to me...

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): most of us

[13:48] CB Axel: And an important one.

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its both obvious and unexplainable at the same time what it is

[13:48] CB Axel: Iowa just passed the most restrictive anti-abortion bill in the country.

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of

[13:48] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita

[13:49] CB Axel: It has made abortion illegal after a fetal heartbeat can be detected.

[13:49] CB Axel: Which is often before a woman even knows she is pregnant.

[13:49] herman Bergson: isn't that after six weeks?

[13:49] CB Axel: The people who back that law seem to think that a heartbeat is proof of life.

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): much earlier Herman

[13:50] CB Axel: It's at about 6 weeks, yes.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Never been pregnant..so I am no expert on this...

[[13:50] CB Axel: I say it's not life, it's just a heartbeat. I would prefer to look at fetal brain development and try to figure out when consciousness begins.

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don't think they can figure that out yet

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if ever

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ow would have

[13:51] CB Axel: Although, even then the fetus may not be able to survive outside the womb.

[13:51] herman Bergson: interesting thought tho CB...

[13:51] CB Axel: I say it's not alive until it can survive, although we are pushing that distinction earlier and earlier.

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it moves so it lieves I suppose

[13:52] roos Gartner is offline.

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lives

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:52] CB Axel: But if it can be proven to me that consciousness begins before survival could occur, I'd have to rethink my feelings on that.

[13:53] herman Bergson: The basic problem here is that we are medically able to interfere with the biological process....and we have to find an answer to the question...what to do???

[13:53] herman Bergson: The Romans for instance....when the child showed a physical defect...it was put in front of the father...

[13:54] herman Bergson: if he didn't pick up the child....the child died...

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): terrible

[13:54] CB Axel: And, as usual, the mother had no say.

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the mother?

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): atrue

[13:54] herman Bergson: as usual...

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): chinese did a lot of killing

[13:54] herman Bergson: But hear this.....

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): girls

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for a thile

[13:54] herman Bergson: I call it a horror story...

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): while that is

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to get going soon

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i would have been here Tuesday but we had tornado warnings in the state... had two small tornados  and a microburst ... trees down all over parts of the state on  houses and cars..

[13:55] herman Bergson: Dutch doctors...a few offer a DNA test for couples

[13:55] CB Axel: Yikes, Gemma

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: o terribele gemma!

[13:55] herman Bergson: then they are tested for 70 possible defects...

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was like someone picked up a lad and dropped it

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on us

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was not near the tornado area

[13:56] CB Axel: I'm listening, Herman.

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are not used to this

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry! herman

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i have to leave so

[13:56] herman Bergson: ok...went a tornado through this class too :-)

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:56] herman Bergson: anyway....

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): long one

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:56] herman Bergson: after the test the couple gets the result....

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): our brains are spinning like tornadoes now

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:57] herman Bergson: Just listen.....

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it works?

[13:57] herman Bergson: Suppose it was you hearing this....

[13:57] CB Axel: shhh

[13:58] herman Bergson: the result is that you have a 25% chance that your newborn will have the Down syndrom....or leukemia....

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many do that here with huntington's disease and do split

[13:58] herman Bergson: 25%...

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very sad

[13:58] herman Bergson: very very sad...

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aw

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to run

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry!

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu gemma

[13:58] herman Bergson: the horror of medicines to me

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma

[13:59] CB Axel: Bye, Gemma.

[13:59] herman Bergson: Gemma goes fishing again I guess :-)))

[13:59] herman Bergson: Anyway....

[13:59] CB Axel: Do the parents have a choice as to whether to continue the pregnancy or not?

[13:59] herman Bergson: guess we have collected enough to think about again...

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think parents have always a choise

[14:00] herman Bergson: The test is BEFORE there is a pregancy CB!

[14:00] CB Axel: I hope so.

[14:00] CB Axel: Oh. I see.

[14:00] CB Axel: I have a DNA test sitting here waiting for me to decide whether to spit in in or not. °͜°

[14:00] herman Bergson: the message is..if you fuck you may fuck up for your child

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no need to make child, you can f..anyway

[14:01] CB Axel: But it's not a test for me to see if I carry any hereditary diseases.

[14:01] herman Bergson: parents love to have a child, Beertje..that is the point here :-))

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not about the parents now, it's about a child

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it healthy enough to live a good life

[14:03] herman Bergson: the child that not even is conceived...

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but it exists in the mind of the parents

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[14:04] herman Bergson: the wish exists....not the child in a biological sense

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's what I meant

[14:04] herman Bergson: ok...

[14:05] herman Bergson: I guess we are done for today....:-)

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[14:05] herman Bergson: So...class dismissed...:-)

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well good as usual

[14:05] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time then

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

718: Why Vienna.....?

To have a closer look at the roots of the 21st century, we take our starting point in Vienna of 1900.

   

Why Vienna, why this big city. I wondered about that myself, but there is a possible explanation, which is somewhat obscured by our present life.

   

Just imagine the situation in 1900. It is really a matter of closing your eyes and use your imagination.

    

Strip your present world of everything that did not exist in 1900. Out go Internet, computer, radio, 

   

worldwide telephone connections, equality of man and woman, general right to vote, education for everyone at all levels.

    

What was new in 1900 were industrialization, mass production and urbanization.

   

As an intellectual, scientist or artist what did you do in those days where spreading ideas mainly happened only by newspaper, magazine, book or personal conversations and exchanges?

   

You went to a big city, where all this kind of people gathered and where the important universities were, 

  

That were the places where the action was: Paris, Berlin, London, Vienna, where Vienna certainly was one of the leading cities in those days.

   

We are looking for the roots of the 21st century in the 20th century and we already have seen the rise of psychology with Freud.

   

We also observed a strong racism and antisemitism and with Kraft-Ebing the most peculiar ideas about sexuality and the position of women.

  

But what comes to my mind in relation to that is, that in 1907 there wandered a failed art student through the streets of Vienna, absorbing this atmosphere: Adolf Hitler.

   

And what happened in Vienna too was the separation of strict science and philosophy of science  

  

from the habit of continental philosophy to build extensive theories about everything based on a rationalist approach, in the belief that the mind is the prima donna here.

   

What I refer to here is the Vienna Circle which started in 1908 as philosophical meetings on the philosophy of science and epistemology.

  

These both historical events, among others of course, have been fundamental for how our world looks like now in 2018.

   

Let's get back to what was happening in Vienna in the first decennium of the 20th century and meet someone.

   

Adolf Loos (1870-1933). He was an Austrian architect and influential European theorist of modern architecture. 

   

He was friends with Freud, Karl Kraus,  a publisher, Wittgenstein and with the rest of the club at Cafe Griensteidl, a place where the intelligentsia of Vienna used to meet.  

   

Loos thought in revolutionary terms. Architecture, he argued, is not art. 

  

"The artwork is the personal affair of the artist. Art wants to disrupt the comfortzone of people. The house must offer just comfort. The artwork is revolutionary, the house conservative. " 

  

This reasoning applied not only to architecture, but also to clothing and even to his manners. He stood for simplicity, functionality, baldness.

   

According to him, man was threatened to become a slave of materialism, and he wanted to restore the "right" relationship between art and life. 

  

Since architecture was conservative, it was lower in the hierarchy than art. This insight had to be disseminated because it would work liberating. 

  

'The craftsman produces utensils for the here and now, the artist makes something for everyone, everywhere', Loos said.

  

An interesting idea.....art is not craftmanship, but a means to disrupt our comfortzone.....And this was said in 1903.

    

Thank you for your attention...:_)

The Discussion

   

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm art in my meaning is any good looking design, painting or similar, and it does not have to be disruptive

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that's me

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): art is art when you say it's art

[13:25] Umae Ying: what are the dates on DA DA

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it doens't have to be good looking

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...but it is interesting to note this change of attitude in the artist

[13:25] CB Axel: I tend to agree with you, Bejiita, but I've seen art that isn't good looking.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same here

[13:26] Umae Ying: and are you speaking pre WW1 or after?

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): art is a such wide thing

[13:26] CB Axel: Just because something is useful doesn't mean it's not a work of art, imo.

[13:26] herman Bergson: there can be said something about art....

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ww1 was from 1914 til 1918

[13:26] Umae Ying: art before and after the war was very different

[13:26] herman Bergson: till the Romantics artists were craftsmen...producing thing people liked

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Loos had a whole different way of thinking

[13:28] herman Bergson: but around 1840 or some began to claim that the artist had some special connection with the transcnedental which ordinary people dint have.....and thence he made ART....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Art as we know it is just invented in that period

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so what Rembrandt did was not called art in his time?

[13:29] Umae Ying: yes it was art in his time

[13:29] herman Bergson: No....was called good craftsmanship, Beerje

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah ok

[13:29] Umae Ying: because of the guilds

[13:29] herman Bergson: Like you go to a photographer today, in those days you went to Rembrandt...if you had the money :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: It was not art in the sense we call things works of art today

[13:30] Umae Ying: nods

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: So the idea that art should people disturb in their comfort zone is an interesting development

[13:32] herman Bergson: why should it?

[13:32] Umae Ying: da da

[13:32] herman Bergson: yes

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is da da Umae?

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dadaism?

[13:32] Umae Ying: an art movement that was very in your face

[13:32] Umae Ying: yes

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like surrealism and similar

[13:32] Umae Ying: yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: I think it is related to the belief that the ARTIST has some special connect with an knowledge of...whatever it may be....

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i like

[13:33] herman Bergson: but in terms of German philosophy you could say...the Transcendental

[13:34] Umae Ying: but Rodin was working at the same time

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we win 3.1! yay, and the last goal was truly a work of art, shot from the other goal right acros the rink right into the other goal

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): THAT is also art

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] herman Bergson: Dada movement consisted of artists who rejected the logic, reason, and aestheticism of modern capitalist society, instead expressing nonsense, irrationality, and anti-bourgeois protest in their works.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:34] herman Bergson: So ten steps further than Loos went :-))

[13:35] herman Bergson: but in line with his idea

[13:35] herman Bergson: Congrats Bejiita, btw :-))

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:35] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Ive tried to incorporate surrealism into a game story, like a character who gets teleported into his dreams or something like that

[13:36] CB Axel: Yay, Sweden for beating the country Trump's money is in!

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): could be a really interesting concept

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:36] herman Bergson: oops...which was that CB...? :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Russia

[13:37] herman Bergson: ahh yes...sorry

[13:37] CB Axel: LOL

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trump and Putin are the same hit both of them and in the same league

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shit

[13:37] herman Bergson: I think we are off subject now....

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well those 2 are certainly not works of art, well really ugly art in that case

[13:38] CB Axel: So did Dadaism influence Hitler or did Hitler influence Dadaism?

[13:38] CB Axel: Or did other forces influence both?

[13:38] herman Bergson: Dadaism was for Hitler entartete Kunst, CB

[13:39] CB Axel: Oh.

[13:39] herman Bergson: Hitler's taste was pompous and bourgeois

[13:39] CB Axel: Like Wagner?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Equal to that communist art of the Soviets in the 50s and 690s

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: he needed the enkargement very badly - ask freud about it

[13:40] CB Axel: I see.

[13:41] CB Axel: enkargement?

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes I was wonder too CB :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: What  is SLife without typos :-)

[13:41] CB Axel: A typo or a word I"m not familiar with? LOL

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:41] CB Axel: Hard to tell sometimes.

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): RL...Herman :)

[13:42] CB Axel: We could invent a whole new language here based on typos. °͜°

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: sorry typing with one hand

[13:42] herman Bergson: Ciska...what is that word?

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: enlargement

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): macht nichts Ciska

[[13:42] herman Bergson: perfect!

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] herman Bergson: no we know...:-)

[13:43] herman Bergson: thnx

[13:43] CB Axel: So, another parallel between Hitler and Trump.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Ok....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Most important of to day is the notion of a changed approach regarding the function of art in society....

[13:44] herman Bergson: born in the previous century

[13:44] herman Bergson: A good moment to conclude our discussion...

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): was that the base of a whole new thinking in that century?

[13:44] herman Bergson: So unless you have a life saving question yet, let me dismiss class:-)

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok im of inventing the typonese language then

[13:45] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:45] CB Axel: LOL

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or just creating some more bugs in some programming code

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:45] herman Bergson: Good work Bejiita

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time then

[13:46] herman Bergson: and regarding your question Beertje

[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and Class!It was very interesting and entertaining, as always:o)

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes?

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: thank u hermann - thank you all

[13:47] herman Bergson: what we observe in those early years of the 20th century is a kind of social involvement of artists

[13:47] CB Axel: Interesting

[13:47] herman Bergson: they dont want to please...they want to tease, so to speak

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: jump

[13:48] herman Bergson: Interesting stays the question, of course, why this change of mind among artists...

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's changed a lot

[13:48] CB Axel: Protest against industrialization?

[13:49] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:49] herman Bergson: yes CB....was thinking of that indeed....

[13:49] herman Bergson: a general dissatisfaction with the new developments....an urge to protest against it

[[13:50] herman Bergson: another  thing is that in those years photography was developing....

[13:50] Umae Ying: Rilke wrote a book that reflected his dismay at the way industrialization changed life in Paris and other cities

[13:50] herman Bergson: so a nice landscape on the wal could also be a photograph...or a family portrait....

[13:51] herman Bergson: no artists needed here...so he needed a new role

[13:51] CB Axel: Painters were being made obsolete.

[13:51] herman Bergson: a new outlet for creativity

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and people could see more of the world than only their backyard

[13:51] CB Axel nods

[13:52] Umae Ying: Lou Solome was an early and outspoken feminist.... who became a psychoanalist under Freud... early womens libber

[13:52] herman Bergson: Wasn't she a friend of Nietzsche, Umae?

[13:53] Umae Ying: yes...

[13:53] CB Axel: So the rise of photography, an industrial form of art, lead to artists protesting industrialization and Hitler didn't like that.

[13:53] Umae Ying: and Rilke

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well...not that literally CB....

[13:54] herman Bergson: You must see it as forces influencing other forces....causing changes.....not as rockbottom causality

[13:54] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): sorry i must run

[13:54] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): thanks herman

[13:54] herman Bergson: Be well Kimmy :-)

[13:54] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): bye everyone

[13:54] CB Axel: Yes. Of course.

[13:55] CB Axel: Bye, Kimmy.

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Kimmi

[13:55] Umae Ying: baiee

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: bye, Kimmy:-)

[13:55] herman Bergson: History is more a kind of a puzzle....

[13:56] herman Bergson: you have all kinds of pieces and you can put them together in several kinds of ways.....

[13:56] herman Bergson: and every time you get some picture...

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and ask yourself a lot of 'what if's "

[13:57] CB Axel: Yes, Beertje.

[13:57] herman Bergson: so..there is the painter/artist..there is photography....there is the function of the painer...there is the idea of what art should be...and so on

[13:58] CB Axel: Things were definitely changing

[13:59] herman Bergson: we call it evolution CB :-))

[13:59] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a fast evolution

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe too fast?

[14:00] herman Bergson: How do you determine that something is too fast....you must have some standard for that....

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true

[14:00] herman Bergson: which one did you have in mind Beertje :-)

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): industrial change

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a lot of pollution

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): overproduction

[14:02] herman Bergson: polution is an interesting one...

[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i  have to go too, ty again and see you Thursday :-)

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): slaap lekker Bergie

[14:02] herman Bergson: Sweet dreams usw Bergie

[14:02] herman Bergson: ^_^

[14:03] CB Axel: Yes, it's time to go. See you all Thursday.

[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismissed finally ^_^

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

   

717: Sex and Sexuality in Vienna.......

In the early years of the 20th century Vienna was one of the main intellectual centers in Europe.

    

Freud and Husserl were from Vienna. Around 1907 Adolf Hitler was exposed there to the racist  ideas which were popular in Vienna.

   

There was something going on there in Vienna. Psychology was developing as a science. Before it was often a part of philosophy.

  

There is one interesting subject, that began to play an important role: sexuality. Not sex, but sexuality.

   

To begin with sex has no history. It is a natural fact, grounded in the functioning of the body, and, as such, it lies outside of history and culture. 

  

Sexuality, by contrast, does not properly refer to some aspect or attribute of bodies. Unlike sex, sexuality is a cultural production:

   

it represents the appropriation of the human body and of its physiological capacities by an ideological discourse.

  

Sexuality is not a somatic fact; it is a cultural effect. Sexuality, then, does have a history and Vienna plays an important role in that history.

   

Freud started with defining it as part of the psychological make-up of a person and as a source of  all kinds of behavior. Just think of the Oedipus- and Elektra-complex.

   

But there were other peculiar theories around. For instance those of Otto Weiniger (1880 - 1903).

  

In 1903 was his book published "Geschlecht und Charakter" (Gender and character). It was a big success,  rabiate antisemitic and extremely woman unfriendly.

   

He invented new words, which had no scientific basis at all, like "idioplasma", the name for sexually undifferentiated body cells.

   

Male tissue he called arrhenoplasma and female tissue thelyplasma. And with ingenious calculations he "showed"

   

that things like geniality, prostitution, intellect etc. depend on. the relation between the arrhenoplasa and thelyplasma in the cells,

   

with of course the conclusion that science and arts, historical achievements and the liker were masculine and well represented in the Arier race

   

and that all bad and negative elements in man were feminine, an abundance of thelyplasma in the human tissue, which was the most obvious in Jews.

   

Otto Weiniger committed suicide when he was 23, but with his book he made his point and represented the trend of those times.

   

A catholic psychiatrist, Richard von Kraff-Ebing (1840-1902) was equally interested in sexuality and sexual issues.

   

In 1886 he published "Psychopathia Sexualis: Ein klinisch-forensische Studie" (A clinic-forensic study)

   

It was so popular that it was translated into seven  languages.. He related sexual pathology to marital status, art and religion.

   

The only function of sexuality was to procreate during marriage, nothing else.

  

Everything about sex outside marriage was pervers and therefor we now still use the word he coined: masochism.

     

He derived the word from the name of a writer, named Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, who wrote some autobiographic story,

  

in which he tells how he  had signed a contract with barones Fanny Pistor, in which he obliged himself to be here slave for 6 months.

   

It was in this world, where religion and science were in conflict, that the 20th century's concept of sexuality developed.

   

And thence became the inspiration of feminism and lives on today in a #MeToo movement.

   

Thank you for your attention.... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or i would say reborn

[13:21] herman Bergson: reborn?

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): th movements

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): feminism reborn in the me too

[13:22] CB Axel: It sounds like Weiniger was trying to bring back imbalances in body humors as a cause for disease.

[13:22] herman Bergson: You mean MeToo is a reborn feminism?

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sort of languished a bit

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think so

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or reawakened

[13:22] herman Bergson: I see...

[13:23] herman Bergson: Weiniger assumed of course that males existed of arrhenoplasme and women mainly of thelyplasma :-)

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why did man through the years hate woman so much?

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks they did not hate... just underestimated them

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as human beings

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why?

[13:24] herman Bergson: But what more interesting is, is that in Vienna in the period 1900 - 1910 there must have exist a very peculiar intellectual world

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very peculiar

[13:24] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): something in the water

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is an interesting question Beertje....

[13:25] herman Bergson: I recently read an article about a group of men, who cheered  that terrorist in Toronto who killed 10 people with a van....

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am sure there were more than that group

[13:25] herman Bergson: They cheered him because most of them were women.....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it seems purposeful

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to go after women

[13:26] herman Bergson: There is a group on the internet who gather around hating women....I forgot the name

[13:26] CB Axel: Didn't the guy in Toronto aim for women because he couldn't get any woman to sleep with him?

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is what he was supposed to say

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes indeed CB.....that was it.....

[13:27] CB Axel: All he did was prove that the women were right to shun him.

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but that is not now, it was the same a century ago

[13:27] herman Bergson: Rodger was his name.....now I recall

[13:27] herman Bergson: That is the point Beertje.....

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): humans have some things in them that carry from century to century

[13:28] herman Bergson: It has to do with the position of women in society, which largely is defined by our concept of sexuality...

[13:28] CB Axel: I don't know what it was like in early 20th c. Vienna, but I think part of the problem today is that women no longer require a man to protect her and provide for her.

[13:29] herman Bergson: After the Victorian sexuality, it became a part of psychopathology....

[13:29] CB Axel: Men are becoming superfluous in the day to day lives of women.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): was that in the earlier centuries also the case< like in 1500 or so?

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lets not go too far tho

[13:30] herman Bergson: There is a much larger freedom of choice of how to organize your life today

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): worse then beertje

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Even the Saudi women have made progress in freedom

[13:31] herman Bergson: In the 17th century there was a freeer way of dealing with sexuality.....think of Marquise de Sade for instance and his 120 days of Sodom...

[13:32] herman Bergson: But yet he went to jail for that book, if I am not mistaken

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] CB Axel: Were women more free back then?

[13:32] CB Axel: Probably not.

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no

[13:32] herman Bergson: Sexuality is part of the political discourse....

[13:33] herman Bergson: The rights of women.....they were allowed to vote since 1919

[13:33] CB Axel: Only because men want to control women. At least in the US they do.

[13:33] herman Bergson: but they belang in the kitchen....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes.....the relation controller  and controlled person is part of the discourse....

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone is online.

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have never understood why people in sl have kitchens... a lot of them

[13:34] CB Axel: I have a kitchen. °͜°

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lololol

[13:34] CB Axel: It makes the house look like a home.

[13:34] herman Bergson: yes......and bedrooms are also redundant here

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:34] CB Axel: And bathrooms, but I have one of those, too.

[13:34] herman Bergson: a home for a woman CB?

[13:34] CB Axel: A home for anyone who eats.

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have never had a kitchen in sl but i love ot cook

[13:35] herman Bergson: me too :-)

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and eat

[13:35] herman Bergson: I have no bed here either :-))

[13:35] CB Axel: Now I'm getting hungry. °͜°

[13:36] CB Axel: I enjoy decorating my sl house the way I can't afford to in rl.

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): woman belong in the kitchen you said..but

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes

[13:36] CB Axel: Hi, Ciska.

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): on tv it's all man who cook

[13:36] CB Axel: Yes. The great chefs have almost all been men.

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oops

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone whispers: hello

[13:37] CB Axel: My father used to cook our Sunday dinners.

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ciska

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think they are jealous on us , woman

[13:38] herman Bergson: Main point still is how the concept of sexuality is about control

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it does

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:38] herman Bergson: in the personal and also political sphere

[13:38] CB Axel: I never understood why it was thought that men could do any job they wanted and were good at, but all women were expected to be were housewives and mothers. Even women who weren't good at either.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:38] herman Bergson: That is this control thing, CB....

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but what drives man to control woman that much?

[13:39] herman Bergson: If women were meant to deliver babies, and take care of the children they could not work...

[13:39] herman Bergson: This was strongly supported by christian churches

[13:39] CB Axel: Well, men ruined it for themselves, imo. They started wars that sent men away leaving women to do the jobs the men couldn't do while fighting.

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which were mostly run by men

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there wasn't any woman who startet a war

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's always a man

[13:40] CB Axel: Once women learned that they could do jobs outside of the home, that was the beginning of the end of women as slaves to men.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Don't forget education CB....

[13:41] CB Axel: Yes. Men should never have allowed women to be educated. °͜°

[13:41] CB Axel: You guys have brought all this down upon yourselves. LOL

[13:41] herman Bergson: Only in the early 1900 years women were allowed to study at the university....

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i still don't know why man act like this

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's stupid

[13:42] CB Axel: What happened in the 1900's that made it ok for women to learn?

[13:43] herman Bergson: in the period 1900 - 1920 there must have been a strong racist, antisemitic and male dominated culture in Vienna

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some women woke up and looked around

[13:43] herman Bergson: It is culture, Beertje

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it seems to be returning today tho Herman

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the racist and antisemetic

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): part anyway

[13:44] CB Axel: I wonder if some devices that made housework easier and faster were popular. Women had more free time then.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma, you sometimes begin to fear that...

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very much so

[13:45] herman Bergson: So it is interesting to think about the concept of sexuality of today....

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very different now too

[13:45] herman Bergson: how much is has or has not changed since 1910

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think it's still a struggle

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes I think so too

[13:46] herman Bergson: women are not equally paid to begin with

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes even still

[13:47] herman Bergson: A minority reaches the top in companies and universities

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even if they have to take care of children alone

[13:47] CB Axel: Because men don't want women to succeed in the workplace.

[13:47] herman Bergson: Why don't they want that, CB?

[13:47] CB Axel: Because they still want women to need them.

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): afraid to loose position

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): afraid to have to listen to a woman boss

[13:48] CB Axel: I think men are afraid that if women don't need them to provide and protect, women will avoid marriage.

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmmm

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure

[13:49] herman Bergson: Marriage is already no longer the most favorite thing to do for couples

[13:49] CB Axel: I had an argument with a male friend of mine about the old song Two Out of Three Ain't Bad.

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): dont know that one

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: the masculine picture is still a "leading " one... if  a man cannot lead in other parts of his life he still used to be the 2official" leader of the family

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: that made him something in the hierarchy of men

[13:50] CB Axel: In the song the male singer said in effect, I want you, I need you, but I'll never love you.

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i would say ...GO HOME

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: now this is al shifting but its still hard  for men to define themselves in the western culture without referring to something like " at least i'm not a woman" ;)

[13:50] CB Axel: My friend thought that sounded about right. Being wanted and needed was more important than being loved.

[13:50] herman Bergson frowns

[13:51] herman Bergson: Indeed Ciska....

[13:51] CB Axel: I disagreed. I mean, no one really "needs" another person.

[13:51] herman Bergson: I agree CB :-)

[13:51] CB Axel: Trying to keep a woman by making her believe she "needs" a man is stupid.

[13:51] herman Bergson: I am on your side in this

[13:51] CB Axel: But that's what my friend felt.

[13:52] herman Bergson: a woman NEEDS a man?

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: yes - thats a try to make a dominat position out of nothing cb

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some actually do

[13:52] herman Bergson: I get the impression it is precisely the other way around

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they go from one bad relationship to another

[13:52] CB Axel: Men need to stop expecting a woman to need a man and instead try to be the kind of man the woman can want and love.

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some cannot live without a man

[13:52] CB Axel: Oh, women are to blame, too.

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): human frailties

[13:53] CB Axel: They want a man to take care of them. But then they're surprised when they have kids and the man leaves.

[13:53] CB Axel: Women have to stop depending on others to take care of them.

[13:54] CB Axel: Women also have to stop thinking that sex = love.

[13:54] herman Bergson: Would save me  a lot of money indeed CB :-)))

[13:54] CB Axel: They think that if a man wants to sleep with her that it means he loves her.

[13:54] CB Axel: All it means is that the man loves sex.

[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes that is a mistake....

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I have to run off

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fishing contest I have to host

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma

[13:55] herman Bergson: Ok Gemma....

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] CB Axel: Sleep with a man if you want to, but don't think it has any deeper meaning.

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:55] CB Axel: Bye, Gemma.

[13:55] CB Axel: Happy fishing!

[13:55] herman Bergson: Enjoy, GEmma

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can't there be love between an man and a woman VB?

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): CB

[13:57] CB Axel: Yes, Beertje, but they have to change their expectations from 19th c (and earlier) thinking.

[13:57] herman Bergson: Sex is a biological thing.....but love is at least for a great part a cultural thing, I'd say

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Ik now at least 1 man who has changed his thinking CB :)

[13:57] CB Axel: I agree, but sex with someone you love is more meaningful than the casual sex I see people indulging in.

[13:58] herman Bergson: I agree CB

[13:58] CB Axel: Good for him, Beertje! Some men are making the change, but it's happening slowly.

[13:58] herman Bergson: I hope you are married to that man Beertje....lucky you ^_^

[13:59] CB Axel: The 20th c has made it necessary to look at men and women differently.

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I am:)

[13:59] CB Axel: What with 2 world wars, the Vietnam War, etc.

[13:59] CB Axel: You are lucky, Beertje!

[13:59] herman Bergson: We'll get to those subjects, I assume

[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: I think for many men in the west it really has to do with the "be a man" training which keeps them from understanding love  till midlife crises

[14:00] CB Axel: That's probably true, Ciska.

[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: (which is much earlier these days for men too)

[14:00] CB Axel: But women expect men to "be a man" too.

[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: I still  think hermans talk explains a lot there

[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: yes of course

[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: as much as  men expect women to be women

[14:01] Ciska Riverstone: but that does not help

[14:01] CB Axel: The old male/female roles no longer apply.

[14:01] Ciska Riverstone: women need to define their womanhood and men their manhood and then live with the consequences

[14:02] herman Bergson: YEs Ciska and present day's definitions still have a lot of old ideas in them

[14:02] Ciska Riverstone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVI1Xutc_Ws

[14:02] CB Axel: I think it could be very freeing for men to not always having to be tough and brave and strong.

[14:02] Ciska Riverstone: they have often dimmed down their connection to feeling yes

[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: that does not help with love

[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: but it helps with career

[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: or with going over "dead" bodies

[14:03] herman Bergson: Well I guess we can go on about this subject as long as man and woman exist....:-)

[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[14:03] herman Bergson: I wouldn't advise that :-)

[14:04] herman Bergson: So I better thank you again for  your participation ...:-)

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman :)

[14:04] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[14:04] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[14:05] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje ㋡

[14:05] CB Axel: Try this TED Talk, too: https://www.ted.com/talks/justin_baldoni_why_i_m_done_trying_to_be_man_enough

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Ciska, CB en Herman :)

[14:05] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten Herman

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): slaap lekker

[14:05] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje....

[14:05] Ciska Riverstone: thanx cb

[14:05] herman Bergson: ohh....we got homework....:-)

[14:05] CB Axel: Welterusten, everyone. See you Tuesday.

[14:06] CB Axel: Yes! Two TED Talks to watch. °͜°

[14:06] CB Axel: Bye bye

[14:06] Ciska Riverstone: heheh byee

[14:06] herman Bergson: Ok...I'll go and do that

[14:06] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy