What is our legacy in democracy from the 20th century? The decline of our Western culture like Oswald Spengler predicted?
What we can observe at least, is, that our Western culture and in particular our democratic system is put to the test.
Spengler dreamt of the rise of a new Caesar, a strong leader and he was served to his taste, but only after his death.
Europe got its share of "strong" leaders. The number one is Hitler, of course, but don't forget Mussolini in Italy.
But that is not all. Spain had its Franco, who died in 1975. He was a Spanish general who ruled over Spain as a military dictator.
Portugal was in the grip of Salazar. He was responsible for the Estado Novo ("New State"), the corporatist authoritarian government that ruled Portugal until 1974.
The Greek had their Regime of Colonels from 1967 to 1974. And all these dictators claimed, that they were in power to save "us" from "the enemy".
The call for a "strong" man is not the privilege of right-wing politics. The extreme left is equally happy with such a leader. To mention a view: Stalin, Mao, Putin...
What does the trick? Why is a society responding to one particular person in such a way, throwing overboard freedom of speech or equal rights for all?
The "strong man" is the central figure in the autocratic politics. He pretends that he knows the will of the majority, the 'people's will' and that he expresses that will politically.
That is also his big deception. Why? Because the 'people's will' will always be a construct.
An autocratic leader creates an image of a homogeneous people according to their own preferences, to then put words into their mouths.
In all his speeches he will say, "We Germans" or "The People"or "We Americans".....demand ,want, stand for this of that.
With that his own right is the same as the right of that 'people'. The implicit message is that if the leader does not get his way, the people will not get their way and the system will not work.
If he is contradicted or corrected, he will therefore be inclined to attack the democratic system in its foundations,
by making it suspect and speaking of a 'fake parliament', 'fake judges' and a 'fake press'.
What is that seductive power of the autocracy? That is, that it makes reality clear, simple and unambiguous.
In uncertain times, and that is our time, the autocratic leader has a clear story about cause and effect, perpetrators and victims.
With his dichotomy between 'us' and 'them', the autocrat organizes and creates clarity in a complex society with porous boundaries and faded social structures.
The loyalty that he asks of the electorate is up to him: the strong man, the Leader who knows where all their adversity comes from, who is guilty of it and how it again can turn out well.
Europe got rid of its dictators like Salazar, Franco, Mussolini, Hitler and others and restored democracy in the 21st century.
Now and then you get the impression that the United States of today, however, are moving towards 20th century errors and make their president a cult figure with all consequences.
Thank you for your attention again...^_^
The Discussion
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the list of countries is sad going that way
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look at turkey
[13:28] herman Bergson: Hungary
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): almost france
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Italy
[13:28] CB Axel: I guess it's our turn for a dictator in the US.
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): possibly brazil soon
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes i guess cb
[13:29] herman Bergson: T. would love that role, I am convinced
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is trying
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so basically its just like this 1.Strong man sets up a trap and lures people with fake promises. 2. once in power he shows his true self and create hell for everyone, for ex like Hitler with the Holocaust
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hard
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): with his base
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and with the support of HIS party now
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and people fall ito this trap over and over agai
[13:30] CB Axel nods
[13:30] herman Bergson: Something like that Bejiita....
[13:30] herman Bergson: But the essential question is WHY DOES IT WORK?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause people don't think twice
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we don't learn from history amazing
[13:30] CB Axel: Because people fail to learn from history?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:30] CB Axel: Because they want easy answers to difficult circumstances?
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and want to be saved from dissatisfaction
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: it works because people do not understand the complexity and search for someone to take over responsibility
[13:31] herman Bergson: Or is it a basic psychological need of a father figure.....a sense of security and protection?
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "can this really be what he says or os he gonna kill us all/create total war ect when he comes to power"
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and a lack of education
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:31] CB Axel: Because the people want someone who will fix things while the people just sit on their asses watching TV?
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that too
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes CB...
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wrong programs too
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can learn lots from tv
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if using the right stations
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: I learn a lot from US TV news programms
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Fox news?
[13:33] herman Bergson: Bu tfrom a distance viewed it is a kind of soap
[13:33] CB Axel: I learn what idiots we are from TV.
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some really dumb programs staring this yeaar here to
[13:33] herman Bergson: I don't watch fox News, for I know what they are gonna say
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bet trump loves them all
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i do some people
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and stand behind whats in them
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): try shep smith
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is a journalist news reporter
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not a foxy
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed its very important to sort out crap from good stuff
[13:34] CB Axel: I don't think Trump watches anything but the news. If it's not about him, he isn't interested.
[13:34] herman Bergson: Bejiita...Trump is in a mental LOOP with foxNews.....
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:34] herman Bergson: He says somewhere...bla bla it is a disgrace....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes thats the case indeed
[13:34] herman Bergson: then he watches FN and they say...bla bla is a disgrace....
[13:35] herman Bergson: Then Trump says...
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS!
[13:35] CB Axel: Non-news TV programming is just a hypnotic to keep people from thinking.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Didint I say it...it is in the news too
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and sometimes he says it wrong from what they meant anyway
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the funniest
[13:35] herman Bergson: that is fun indeed Gemma
[13:35] herman Bergson: I now and then here even at FN a critical remark :-)
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he really don't know anything but he speaks as if he does and boasts about it
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i just BLARRRRGHH and pots cotton in my ears
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't think a dictator is fun
[13:36] herman Bergson: Bu tlet's get back to the general level of the discussion....
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is not Beertje
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we know
[13:36] CB Axel: That loop you speak of, Herman, is hilarious when you look at it closely. People who watch Fox don't see it, though.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the fun part is knowing that he made a mistake and has to admit it
[13:36] herman Bergson: That's the problem CB
[13:37] herman Bergson: But what we are discussing is the legacy of the 20th century....
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:37] herman Bergson: the dictatorships...which eventually were turned over...
[13:37] herman Bergson: and now this move to the right is a number of countries....
[13:38] CB Axel: I need to look back at the fall of those dictators to see how it was done.
[13:38] herman Bergson: what is happening?
[13:38] herman Bergson: Franco organized it himself before he died....
[13:38] herman Bergson: In Portugal there was a non violent revolution...
[13:39] herman Bergson: as happened in Greek with the Colonels
[13:39] CB Axel: Non-violent? Well, that's no fun. LOL
[13:39] herman Bergson: Mussolini was hanged and Hitler...well we all know that story
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...CB.....
[13:39] herman Bergson: The soldiers were in the streets but people put flowers in the barrels of their guns...
[13:40] herman Bergson: I don't recall the details....
[13:40] herman Bergson: it was called the Anjer revolution
[13:40] CB Axel: We did that in the late 60's and early 70's while protesting the war in Vietnam.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Anjer may be a dutch name for the flower people used
[13:41] CB Axel: Anjer = carnation
[13:41] herman Bergson: Ah yes...
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa sound familiar
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that was the flower power time I guess
[13:41] CB Axel: We used mostly daisies. °͜°
[13:41] herman Bergson: But our main question is...is this move to the right in the world just an incident or should it disturb us....?
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:42] CB Axel: It disturbs me.
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope it's just an incident
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am afraid it is more than that tho
[13:42] herman Bergson: YEs and I hope the Mueller report will put an end to it all in the US
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but maybe a wake up cll
[13:42] CB Axel: I'm hoping that we can get more young people interested in voting. That would help.
[13:43] herman Bergson: Indeed it would!
[13:43] herman Bergson: So...
[13:44] herman Bergson: I think next time we should ask us the question what realy is meant by democracy....
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does it still exist?
[13:44] herman Bergson: Fought for by women in the 20th century....to get the right to vote for instance
[13:44] CB Axel: That would be interesting. Or what is meant by capitalism.
[13:44] herman Bergson: It does Beertje...it does
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh worse
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes it does
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in some forms
[13:45] herman Bergson: people may be stupid...but they aren't fools
[13:45] herman Bergson: World War Two wasn't lost but won....!
[13:46] herman Bergson: The Berlin wall fell....didn't keep standing
[13:47] herman Bergson: So...since we are no fools either...we won't give up to make the world a better place ˆ_ˆ
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:47] herman Bergson: Come on, Gemma :-)))
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the question is How
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:47] herman Bergson: Don't worry Beertje...we'll find a way :-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how?
[13:47] CB Axel: What people don't seem to realize is that nothing can be fixed quickly.
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe sitting and watching tv is better
[13:48] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oor hosting a fishing contest
[13:48] herman Bergson: for the weekend..you all sit and watch TV and feel relaxed :-))
[13:48] CB Axel: The US has been going downhill since, imo, 1492. It won't be fixed in one election cycle.
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or working in Unity
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:48] herman Bergson: Good....:-)
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): stil dont agree with that cb
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): heavens
[13:49] CB Axel: °͜°
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so much progress
[13:49] herman Bergson: So time to end our discussion, enjoy the weekend eand Dismiss Class :-))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:49] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all agin for your participation :-))
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman thanx all
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: have a good weekend
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now time to finish the last on my virtual house
[13:49] CB Axel: See you all on Tuesday. °͜°
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a nice weekend all
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and cu around
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] herman Bergson: Enjoy Bejiitsa :_)
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy and welterusten beertje ㋡
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