384: The Utopia of the Free Market ... Ayn Rand ethics

One of the most influential persons at the cradle of today's financial crisis is Allen Greenspan (1926), till 2006 president of the Fed, the Federal Reserve Bank, a powerful financial institution in the US and internationally.

He himself is not so convinced of his responsibility of the crisis. He prefers to blame 'human nature'. According to him it is a common fact that in times of prosperity people only want more and more.

The tenth commandment of christianity is "You shall not covet
your neighbor's goods.", which you could interpret as the advise, that you should control yourself, be content with what you possess and not be greedy.

In the book "Atlas Shrugged", in the creation of which Allen Greenspan played an important role, Ayn Rand turns the world upside down.

When she describes her utopia, her Atlantis, in her book "Atlas Shrugged", then chapter 2 in part III carries the title "The Utopia of Greed".

So, let's focus on Ayn Rand's philosophical ideas. She describes her philosophy of Objectivism thus:
1.Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

2.Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

3.Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

4.The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism.

In short is means 1. Metaphysics: Realism, 2. Epistemology: Reason, 3: Ethics: Self-interest and 4. Politics: Capitalism. Let's have a closer look at 'Reason'.

It sounds so obvious, that you are immediately inclined to say: sure... yes.. absolutely true. But let me ask you a simple question.... it says "reason is a means". We all will claim that we use our reason every day, but how does reason work? What kind of machinery is it?

"Philosopy: Who Needs It", pg 62: "Reason integrates man’s perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions, thus raising man’s knowledge from the perceptual level, which he shares with animals, to the conceptual level, which he alone can reach. The method which reason employs in this process is logic—and logic is the art of non-contradictory identification." Ayn Rand.

If this is a knowledge claim and I can't read it otherwise, I really have serious questions to ask, especially while Ayn Rand holds the view that we are born with an empty mind, a tabula rasa. All we know, we know by experience only. In other words..who sent her this revelation about reason?

Let us first put it into historical perspective. Historically we have two kinds of reason. The 17th century philosophers like Descartes saw Reason as opposed to Experience, while the philosophers of the Enlightenment saw Reason as opposed to Faith.

When we take an overall view of the work of Ayn Rand, her ardent condemnation of mysticism and religion, I would conclude that she uses the concept of reason in the way as the Enlightenment philosophers like D'Alembert and Voltaire did: reason as opposed to faith.

That doesn't bring us much further, but it is a start. The question I still want to see answered is, how can we have knowledge of the existence of reason?

In this form it becomes very clear that the question raises at least two highly disputable issues. First, it is far from immediately clear what reasoning is, on what occasion, in what activities or processes, reason is exercised.

And second, if we determine, probably with some degree of arbitrariness, what reasoning is (according to Rand it is "using logic"), it may very well be highly disputable whether this or that can or cannot be achieved by reasoning.

So, in the end, saying that reason is the only guide man has to survive is not clarifying the human condition that much. And if reason is opposed to faith I even encounter a paradox in Randianism, for you have to accept the truth of her philosophical axioms in good faith, which is against reason.

In my previous project I have shown, that reason is an overestimated faculty and that consciousness and our interaction with our environment for our survival is much more complex than the statement that there exists an objective world, which we understand by means of our reason.

A simplification, however, a simplification that is believed by many followers of Ayn Rand. Just google on this name or do a search with it in YouTube. Then you see, that it is still a current topic in the US.


The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you.....
[13:21] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:21] Merlin Saxondale: Herman
[13:21] herman Bergson: Merlin... ㋡
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: When we started this I thought you were in great a greememt with Rand, but now you seem less so.
[13:22] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:22] herman Bergson: I never have been in agreement with Rand Merlin....
[13:23] Merlin Saxondale: Oh OK. It was my first impression at the first talk
[13:23] herman Bergson: First of all....using words like reason giv ethe impression that you are talking about something distinct...
[13:23] Qwark Allen: what come to my mind when you talked about that "reason" definition, is that after all, it`s ruled the same way as "free will"
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes that can be true
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: seems related in a way
[13:24] Mick Nerido: Rand reason = common sense?
[13:24] Qwark Allen: somehow, feeling that reason and freewill are not on our side
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: cause its our will that make us eason
[13:24] Qwark Allen: like we have seen before
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: reason
[13:24] herman Bergson: in the previous project we have learnt how th ebrain wokrks....and that is definitely doesnt work only by using reason (whatever that may be)
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: at least in some way
[13:24] Qwark Allen: we are orientated to the reason , "others" want
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: if i say i have a reason for something its because my own will make me reason that way
[13:25] herman Bergson: Waht I want to make clear from the beginnning at least is that Rand's philosophy is begging the question
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: whan I want
[13:26] herman Bergson: she just defines her concepts as it suits her philosophicla interpretation of the human being
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: but reasoning is also about taking into conciderationn some ethic rules i think, is this om to do?
[13:26] herman Bergson: and his motives and drives
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: reason is also influenced by education, not only logic
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: to do
[13:26] Qwark Allen: its very cultural thing
[13:26] oola Neruda: i was struck by the phrase... not sacrifice others...which i see as counter to the rest of what she has said
[13:26] Mick Nerido: we are in agreement that there is an objective reality...
[13:27] Qwark Allen: and in our society ruled by mass media
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy, but we then first need a clear definition of reason....
[13:27] herman Bergson: We know that it is a brain function...even coming from which part...
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: aa yes we reason in a certain way cause we either have learned that it works this and that way and this and this is ok and that is not
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: thus reason must by very individual
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: however some people reason otherwise it seems
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is aninteresting point too Bejiita...
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Reason is one way of seeing that ojective world...
[13:28] herman Bergson: the generalization of the concept of Reason.....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: greedy people for ex reason only for their own cares and dont care all about others
13:28] Bejiita Imako: but they still reason that "its ok"
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: and sleep well at night
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: seems so
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita... ㋡
[13:29] herman Bergson: And they base their reasoning on the ideas of self-interest as developed by Ayn Rand
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that can very much be true
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: getting bad influences
[13:29] herman Bergson: And then say...well....this is just how an objective reality functions...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that affect their reasoning
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: in a bad way
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that greesiness is ok
[13:30] herman Bergson: I am a part of this objective reality as my reason is...so I am objective in what I do
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: greediness
[13:30] herman Bergson: no...we shouldn't use the word greediness anymore form now on...
[13:30] herman Bergson: we call it self-interest
[13:31] Mistyowl Warrhol: Think you had it right the first time, Bejiita. greesiness :)
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ehhee i was thinking the same
[13:31] Qwark Allen: sticks the same way to people
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehehe well they really are some greasy types some of those rich high ones up there
[13:31] Mistyowl Warrhol: Grease the hand, etc.
[13:31] herman Bergson: hello Clerisse ㋡
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: a big mess
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: big and sticky mess
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:32] Clerisse Beeswing: Hello Professor ! Sorry I am late
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Nations behave the same for their self interest
[13:32] herman Bergson: The main idea of Rand is that altruism is a horror, the biggest mistake mankind made ever
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes that as well
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: North Korea is an extreme example of that id say
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: really sad story
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: that need to be changed
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: read some article recently in the news about it
[13:33] Qwark Allen: i agree totally with Ayn in some things, and totaly disagree in other
[13:33] Qwark Allen: she had a really good vision what was about to society to become
[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Qwark....yes but not the way she dreamt it would go...
[13:34] Mick Nerido: In America there is the "frontier" mentality... rugged individualism
[13:34] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: it is fascinating that she has a logic concept
[13:34] herman Bergson: the current neoliberalism, the Tea Party ideas....
[13:34] herman Bergson: all aiming at destroying the welfare state...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:35] Mistyowl Warrhol: Reason is the process we use to take past experiences and knowledge with what feels good to us, to create a truth we think should apply to all. That is reasonable, unless you disagree with that 'reasonable" person.
[13:35] herman Bergson: destroying on what principle we used in the 60s.....solidarity as the leading principle of a society
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes might be
[13:35] Qwark Allen: seems every time more a utopia
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes unfortunatley
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: gets worse and worse instead
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: going in completely wrong direction
[13:36] herman Bergson: all privatization these days....all utopia of the working of the free market....!
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: really worrying
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: but solidarity is reasonable, isn't it?
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example....
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: in sweden they have ruined both the reailroads and the eldery care by privatizing them
[13:37] herman Bergson: We have notaries in the Netherlands....
[13:37] herman Bergson: They used to have fixed rates....
[13:37] herman Bergson: There was a TV program on how to make a good testament....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and now the old people die in their feces because the owner want to build a luxury house worth 6 million dollars
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: really nasty
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and the railroads here work worse and worse and get so expensive its cheaper to fly instead
[13:38] Merlin Saxondale: Someone said that before
[13:38] herman Bergson: the rates for that specific action ran from 215 euro to 690 euro....for the same action!
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: that's insane
[13:38] Qwark Allen: awesome
[13:38] herman Bergson: The rates are free note....free market...competition...you remember...
[13:38] herman Bergson: well...
[13:39] herman Bergson: the old fixed rat e for the action was 460 euro....
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes that's how it all works today
[13:39] herman Bergson: what happened....
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: Breaking news on CNN. maybe a little bit about what we are discussing.. "Dow closes over 13,000 for first time since 2008 after a 25-point gain on lower crude prices and strong consumer report." Speaking of greed.
[13:39] herman Bergson: within a week ALL notaries in the Netherlands charged 460 euro for the action...
[13:39] herman Bergson: thta is how this so called free market should work...
[13:40] herman Bergson: One big mistake....
[13:40] Merlin Saxondale: Do I need to know what notaries are?
[13:40] herman Bergson: Same with the dentists this year.....
[13:40] Qwark Allen: according to ayn rand the free market should have rules, and rulers
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes you cant just let it run away like it does today
[13:41] herman Bergson: these are layers...special kind who draw up testaments, mortgage contracts things like that
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: then the greedy ones take over and everything escalates
[13:41] Merlin Saxondale: ah ok ty
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: thats what we see today
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...take the dentists for instance....
[13:41] Qwark Allen: omg
[13:41] herman Bergson: They clal it an experiment...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: banks health care everything will soon be only for rich people and the poor will not survive, that seems the way they reason in general
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: that to survive you need lot of money
[13:42] herman Bergson: They had fixed rates...and this year they are free to set their rates...
[13:42] Zinzi Serevi: i have to go, thanks for the lecture Herman , bye bye all
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: money
[13:42] herman Bergson: Should stimulate competition...
[13:42] Mick Nerido: we could go back to the Feodal system lol
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ok ZInzi
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:42] herman Bergson: And you know what happened....all dentists increased their rates
[13:42] Beertje Beaumont: yesterday I heard that 30% !! of the households in the Netherlands can't pay their regular bills
[13:42] Qwark Allen: in a way we are at a feudal system, ruled by few organizations
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:43] Qwark Allen: no longer politics are in charge
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: the bosses of the organizations
[13:43] Qwark Allen: but lobbies
[13:43] Clerisse Beeswing: even in usa things cost
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: and now people come all to germany for the teeth
[13:43] Hagar: ellos
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy.... ㋡
[13:43] Merlin Saxondale: People were going to Hungary etc from UK for dentistry
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes dental ahd healthcare should logically be something for everyone but not today
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and
[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Now the Hungarian dentists have come here.
[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Mine is one!
[13:44] herman Bergson: So, I guess you see how important it is that we dismantle the Utopia of the Free Market....
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aa yes it has gone totally out of control
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: cause nothing to create ethic rules
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the bosses and directors decide
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: it becomes like a nuclear reactor with no control rods = KABOOOOOM!
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: and we can't trust the politicians
[13:45] Merlin Saxondale: lol
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: runaway
[13:45] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: oh yes Bejiita
[13:45] Qwark Allen: that is why i like ayn rand, and her vision, we should make the separation of state and economics
[13:45] herman Bergson: next lecture I'll elaborate on the third point of Rand's philosophy
[13:45] herman Bergson: 3.Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
[13:45] Qwark Allen: so politics are not on government for the economics
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: yeah. I missed that one as a child
[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: lol Merlin
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: Jesus's selflessness was the big thing then
[13:46] herman Bergson: The big debate is Keyensian against Neoliberalism or worse..the Tea Party ideas...
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: Not getting any arguments from me about the Tea Party.
[13:47] oola Neruda: with the super pacs funding campaigns now... i think that an elected post is "bought" by a rich few
[13:47] oola Neruda: who pull the strings of the ones they have funded
[13:47] Qwark Allen: off course
[13:47] herman Bergson: I'll show you that the way our society is organized is not an basolute...an obvious conclusion....
[13:47] herman Bergson: Economy has its own history too...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Our idea of making profit is only a 15o years old
[13:48] Mick Nerido: The world id flat...
[13:48] Qwark Allen: hehehe
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well Columbus showed us that the earth was round in 1492 ㋡
[13:49] Qwark Allen: vasco da gamma, was first in americas then colombo
[13:49] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:49] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: when you are living in this profit system you have to adapt or you will go down
[13:49] herman Bergson: ok...Next lecture on the ethics of Rand.....
[13:49] Mick Nerido: Flat econimically speaking :-00
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation ㋡
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: time will tell about anything else
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman
[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:50] Qwark Allen: i think the iranians want to flat the world in another way
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting :-)
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: Thanks professor
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: very interesting as always
[[13:50] Qwark Allen: very interesting
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu next time
[13:50] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:50] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Iran just wants to join the club
[13:51] Beertje Beaumont: thank you professor
[13:51] Qwark Allen: i think they want to flat the world
[13:51] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe no north korea is
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lets see how it goes this year
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: first Kim starves his own people then annihilate us all with nuclear weapons
[13:51] Qwark Allen: hehehehe
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hope that does NOT happen
[13:51] herman Bergson: yes exciting times Bejiita...
[13:51] Merlin Saxondale: Bye Herman and everyone
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: shudders
[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody
[13:52] Qwark Allen: yes, that will be the end of this class for sure
[13:52] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡

383: The Utopia of the Free Market NEW PROJECT

Today we start a new project with the title "The Utopia of the Free Market". Of course the current financial crisis makes the subject even more interesting.

However, something keeps itself hidden in a clever way by emphasizing especially the FINANCIAL aspect: we are not facing just a financial crisis, but a moral crisis.

"I am not a destroyer of companies, I am a liberator of companies. What it is all about, ladies and gentlemen, is that greed, for lack a better word, is good. Greed is legal. Greed works.

Greed clarifies, flows through and shapes the quintessence of evolution. Greed in all its forms, greed of life, money, love, knowledge, speeds up the progress of humanity."

These are the words of the notorious banker, Gordon Gekko in the movie Wallstreet (1987). How prophetic that movie was !!!

That we are dealing primarily with a moral crisis is clearly demonstrated by Greece. At the basis of its financial crisis is the general moral sense of responsibility with respect to their society.

They might kill me for this statement, but tax evasion and corruption in certain areas is in Greece such a common thing, it seems.

But there is more. One philosopher has been of great influence and stood at the cradle of the moral attitude, which has become such a common good among people, certainly people in finances: Ayn Rand.

Ayn Rand (1905 - 1982) was a Russian - American philosopher, who developed a very personal philosophy: Objectivism.

But mostly she was a successful novelist, who wrote the thickest utopia ever, I think: "Atlas Shrugged" (1957), about a 600 pages. I have read it in preparation of this project.

This book is the capitalist utopia in a nutshell. In Europe the book is hardly known. Just recently I saw a Dutch translation in the bookstore. Maybe because there is a movie now too.

However, according to a survey of American readers, published in Time magazine, "Atlas Shrugged" is the second most important book of the 20th century. Only the Bible was more important.

The indirect and worldwide influence of Ayn Rand is impressive. One important reason is, that her most dedicated philosophical disciple was Allan Greenspan (1926).

Till 2006 he was the president of the Fed, the American Federal Reserve Bank, of which the monetary politics in this globalizing world are felt everywhere.

In this project I will begin with investigating and analyzing the meaning of Rand's philosophy with respect to the capitalist utopia.

We'll have a look in the historical background of the free market ideology and we'll meet a number of philosopher, who can elaborate on that.

To give you names: Aristotle, Thomas More, John Locke and of course Adam Smith and Jeremy Bentham. Not to forger Marx, Durkheim and Keynes.

I'll end the project with an analysis of the question in what way and to what extend we actually made the free market utopia work.

Many people think, that the free market is an objective process that nobody has imagined or invented. Nobody seems to be responsible for the ideology and utopia behind it.

And that is what we are going to find out: who is responsible?

But you'll have to wait for a little while. From 16 to 26 February I'll enjoy a nice vacation in RL. So, next class will be February 28.


The Discussion

[13:19] Farv Hallison: Greenspan changed his mind about Any Rand...Her philosophy cause the financial collapse.
[13:19] herman Bergson: yes yes..Farv, a desillusion....

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:21] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That was short
[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remakrs...plzz go ahead
[13:21] Mick Nerido: Free Market= supply and demand Theory?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Funny you say that merlin....
[13:22] druth Vlodovic: you have my condolences on having read atlas shrugged
[13:22] Jaelle Faerye: Thank you Herman
[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes?
[13:22] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you Herman
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes because the lecture was as long as any other lecture...
[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: isn't the opposite of the free market an utopia too?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Druth..I KNOW what you mean....
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: wb Beertje
[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought they were usually about 20 minutes
[13:23] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you
[13:23] herman Bergson: the plot is ok, but what all these people say is a horror..
[13:23] herman Bergson: no..max 10
[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): aaah ok
[13:23] druth Vlodovic: I find it funny that people try to sell selfishness as a viable "moral"
[13:24] Farv Hallison: we take 10 minutes saying hello to each other.
[13:24] druth Vlodovic: I suspect they do it in order to cause their victims to accept what they do
[13:24] herman Bergson: Atlas Shrugged is only bearable from an intellctual point of view....
[13:24] herman Bergson: in the sense that you have to have read it...
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman, when you started off saying 'Greed is good' etc... Was that your view?
[13:24] herman Bergson: No Merlin it was a quote from the movie Wall Street
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): OK well I recognised that it was a quote
[13:25] herman Bergson: I accept that greed exists in us...
[13:25] Mistyowl Warrhol: I had it very clearly explained to me once, there is a big difference, in being selfish and taking care of self. When we are taking care of ourselves properly, that is good.. being selfish is not good.
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: greed is never good, just thinking about oneself cause of money
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and to get all for yourself
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: thats greed
[13:25] Jaelle Faerye: bye all, sorry have to go
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Jaelle
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: but thats how way too many thinks nowadays
[13:25] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): tot ziens jaelle
[13:26] Mick Nerido: Greed envy sloth etc all not good...
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Misty...big difference
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Pride
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol, thats another one
[13:26] druth Vlodovic: well, you don't want to go overboard into automatic martyrdom either
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I quite like Sloth myself :P
[13:27] herman Bergson: Sloth ???
[13:27] druth Vlodovic: but if you are to interact with others you should care for them at least a bit, in a society it is necessary to care for the society and it's members
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: very important
[13:27] Mick Nerido: Sloth=lazyness
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Somehow I think there is a bigger picture
[13:27] herman Bergson: Well Druth...and THAT is exactly the big problem at the moment...
[13:28] Mistyowl Warrhol: I am going to find myself not getting on one of my soap boxes, with this topic !!!!
[13:28] herman Bergson: Money isn't there to serve society...
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): the future of civilization
[13:28] herman Bergson: money is there to make more money
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: no its to serve only the ones who already have it seem nowadays
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: take banks for ex
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...
[13:29] Mick Nerido: power corrupts us...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: now we have to pay to even get our payout from work out at least for the ones not using the internet
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and everything goes down in the bank directors pocket
[13:29] herman Bergson: One of the complains here is that banks arent interested in their clients but only in their own interest..making money
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: before in time banks was for us, now we are for the banks instead
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: no good development at all and get worse and worse
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: the rich gets richer the poor poorer
[13:30] Mistyowl Warrhol: Come to the USA.. We can teach you about GREED.
[13:30] herman Bergson: You need a bonus, Bejiita ㋡
[13:30] druth Vlodovic: actually one of the problems is that the bank doesn't have any real existence, the CEOs of the bank make decisions in "their" own interests and the bank itself can go hang, often
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: haha id wand to steal those bonuses and give to everyone
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: like Robin Hood
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: we'd really need someone like that today
[13:31] Farv Hallison: Obama is Robin Hood
[13:31] herman Bergson: Welcome back Alaya ㋡
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hmm i think obama is a not so bad guy , kind of nice
[13:31] Farv Hallison: hello Alaya, kiss
[13:31] herman Bergson: That is why the republicans want to hang him, Farv
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: like his attitudes in general i think
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but not so involved in details
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman , have to go...
[13:31] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): hi^^
[13:31] JFA (janfolkert.alter) is Offline
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye Mick
[13:32] Farv Hallison: bye Mick
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: cu Mick
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Apologis
[13:32] Mot Mann is Offline
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: I judge how well a politician by how fiercely the republican go after them.. So by that standard, Obama is a great Pres.
[13:33] oola Neruda: Obama IS good...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Good one Misty
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well....
[13:34] herman Bergson: I think we will study some basic Tea Party believes here in class ourselves...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and definitly much better then bush "world destroyer"
[13:34] herman Bergson: Ayn Rand will help us...
[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: Obama's sin is he supports the EPA, which seriously, will cut into the profits of the polluting.. er, bad guys.
[13:34] herman Bergson: just take the title of one of her books "The Virtue of Selfishness"
[13:35] herman Bergson: I guess we better leave American national politics outside this philosophy class ^_^
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: its a global problem and the middle classes have to pay everything
[13:35] druth Vlodovic: I'm still trying to work up the necessary lack of sense to read my copy :(
[13:36] druth Vlodovic: try to keep it "philosophical" :)
[13:36] herman Bergson: I guess you have a point there Lizzy...
[13:36] Mistyowl Warrhol: LOL you can talk about us, if you dont mind some blood shed !!!
[13:36] herman Bergson: Let's keep it philosophical ㋡
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: the divide between "middle" and "low" classes seems to me to be a divide and conquer tactic by the powers that be
[13:37] Farv Hallison: From Greek philosophy to Greek demostrations in the 21 Century.
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: the middle classes have more wealth but much less time, and much more to lose, so they can be controlled if isolated
[13:37] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): what is the philosophy behind free market ideology?
[13:37] herman Bergson: Well...one issue is indeed how to divide the wealth among the members of a society....
[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: (For those of you that do not know me well, I live less than 50 miles from what was known as the "Bush Ranch". I am a liberal in the heart of Tea Party country.
[13:38] herman Bergson: ssssstttt Misty.. !!!!!
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hehe
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hahah
[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: middle class is the only class who can pay, poor people can't pay and rich people save their money
[13:39] herman Bergson: I think we have a good subject for this project...
[13:39] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i think that a bottle of milk is the same price for anybody
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: There is a difference in giving to others and assisting them.
[13:40] Farv Hallison: The tax code favors those in power by taxing them at a lower rate.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well my friends, a new project is born....
[13:41] oola Neruda whispers: i think we need to include the role of propaganda in the
[13:41] herman Bergson: And from what I hear in this discussion...
[13:41] oola Neruda: "selling" of the financial situation
[13:41] herman Bergson: it can be a lot of intellectual fun....
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: can be really interesting for sure
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: look forward to it
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: it will be exciting because we are all concerned actually
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): oh good. we usually go off-topic
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes exactly
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: It is not going to get boring, I dont think :-)
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: ah, I'd love to see an analysis done here on the effect of propaganda on people's thought processes, and their actions as part of a society
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok then...thank you all for this healty kick-off....
[13:42] oola Neruda: do we consider Ayn Rand propaganda?
[13:42] oola Neruda: nowdays?
[13:42] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): lol
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: have a nice vacation herman!
[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Druth that sounds like one for Thothica
[13:42] druth Vlodovic: you're very daring herman, i hope you survive the project :)
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Isn't it all simply like dogs with bones? Those dogs that have snatched the bones try and defend them as best they can. Those without try and steal off them.
[13:42] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): it is a old thing resurrected
[13:42] druth Vlodovic: I'll have to suggest it to sim :)
[13:43] Mistyowl Warrhol: Take care everyone.. I will bring bandaids and ointments for our next lecture :-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: I'll do my best Druth....!
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: i can say it gets my blood flowing for sure when i read about like here in sweden how the old people starve to death so that the owner of their care center can get a wealthy computer controlled home
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: when i read about that recently i really got mad
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: insane and this happens in sweden?
[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Something a bit like that in UK too
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: cause of a scandal company named carema
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes...the Free Market
[13:44] druth Vlodovic: it is a complete lack of proportion, the ability to assess costs to others is basic to morality
[13:44] herman Bergson: Our next target!
[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all!
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: they privaticed the elder care to them and it went a hell
[13:44] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): maybe it will turn into a flee market to pay depts
[13:44] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you Herman
[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Thanks Herman
[13:44] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): byby herman
[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you
[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aa have a good vacation now herman
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] Farv Hallison: Thank you Herman
[13:44] Mistyowl Warrhol: Well, in Texas, we just balanced our budget by withdrawing money from utility companies, from funds set aside to help seniors who could pay the bills..
[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: looks forward to this for sure
[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye everyone
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: and happy valentine
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: \o/
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: || Hoooo!
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: / \

265: The Concluding Lecture of The Ideal State Project

We have come a long way and passed many stations. And here we are: apparently at Fukuyama Station. The train has stopped and our only passenger, Miss Egalitarian Liberalism, gets off the train.

She hesitates. There are two exits to the moral foundation of Political philosophy. One leads to a Kantian ethics of Duty, while the other leads to the utilitarian approach of ethics.

It feels so obvious that we have stopped at this station and that Miss EL is our only companion, but is it so obvious? After all utopias we have visited, is miss EL and what she carries in her bag, the free market, not a utopia too?

In fact the financial crisis we are in now, has proven that the financial world believed in a utopia of unlimited free markets and capitalism.

And the most well read utopia novel next to the bible, that teaches us this utopia, is "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) by Ayn Rand. This was revealed by a research of Time magazine among its readers.

And that this utopia was put to practice is due to one of the closest disciples of Ayn Rand, Alan Greenspan, till 2006 the president of the American Federal Reserve Bank.

The financial politics of this bank affect everyone in this world. This has made the financial crisis pretty clear.

Greenspan was rather upset by the crisis, when he said to the committee of the American congress "Most of us, and me in particular, are shocked and still can not believe it"

And as he continued, there has to be"an error in the conviction that the free market can regulate itself much better than any governmental supervision could do"

When Greenspan described the rise of free market capitalism in the 60s of the past century, he referred to two persons in one breath: Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman.

He was a loyal disciple of Rand and the utopia of "Atlas Shrugged" and he was in the position to put it into practice worldwide. heads of state like Thatcher and Reagan followed him by the book:

privatization of government services (post, energy, transportation, health care etc.), progressive deregulation of the economy and minimizing influences of the trade unions.

This opened the gates to that for which Aristotle already warned us: GREED. The highest goal in his opinion is not the accumulation of as many wealth as possible, but to live a virtuous and good life.

Aristotle was the first one to discover the concept of economy (oikonomia): the management of the household. For that you need goods, of course.

But the acquisition of goods by purchase or exchange is something different, called chremastike (the earning of money). As he says in his Ethica:

"The way of life of chremastike is only forced to choose; wealth is obviously not the good we are looking for. It is a commodity, a means to an end"

The elementary economics was based on exchanging good, a pair of shoes for a bag of corn. With the invention of money the acquiring of the corn could be postponed till later.

As Aristotle says in his Politica: "Due to chremastike people believe that that there is no limit to wealth." He already understood human nature, developed from real hunter to hunter for moor e..and more..and more only.

The next step was the behavior Aristotle really condemned: making money with money. There is no intermediate good anymore, just money to acquire money.

We live in a world, which was predicted by a philosopher more than 2000 years ago. If we loose sight of the true meaning of life and only believe in greed, it will lead to disaster.

Therefore I suggest that we ask Miss EL to get on the train again. This cannot be the end station.



The Discussion


[13:23] herman Bergson: This concludes the series on the Ideal State ^_^
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: and we still dont have one lol
[13:23] Qwark Allen: indeedº
[13:23] Designing Worlds Messages: Changes at Linden Lab! Join us for an iimportant TV discussion today at 2pm - see the notecard for details and landmark.
[13:23] Qwark Allen: seems utopian
[13:23] herman Bergson: No Gemma, but we are working on it.....
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: even Greenspan now admits he made grave errors
[13:23] Kiki Walpanheim: APPLAUSE for the last lecture this semester
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: errors of judgement
[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you Kiki
[13:24] herman Bergson: I think we deserve a vacation
[13:24] Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
[13:24] Kiki Walpanheim: will miss you all
[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: we sure will
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: come to our parties lolo
[13:24] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd
[13:24] herman Bergson: I will be back in September....
[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: in the US, the winner of the Hamiltonian/Jeffersonian struggle by Lincoln doomed us to the policies of Mr Greenspan doomed
[13:24] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:24] Kiki Walpanheim: nods
[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: ah
[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:25] Kiki Walpanheim: ty
[13:25] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd
[13:25] herman Bergson: I am thinking of a project called The Mysteries of the Brain...
[13:25] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:25] >>: Qwark Allen starts swaying to the music.
[13:25] Sartre Placebo: thx herman :)
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: hmmmm
[13:25] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:25] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: i followed some of the blogs... so interesting subjects!
[13:25] herman Bergson: To dig into the great influence neurobiological reseach has on fundamental philosophical issues
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: it was yes
[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: i don't think there ever can be a perfect state lol
[13:26] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: that would be interesting Herman
[13:26] Qwark Allen: seems a utopia
[13:26] herman Bergson: No Bruce
[13:26] Bruce Mowbray: Did I say something?
[13:26] herman Bergson: But the idea of Rawls was that Political philosophy can get close to the ideal theory....
[13:26] Kiki Walpanheim: I read of something interesting yesterday --let the inmates run the asylum
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: agreeing we dont know yet
[13:26] herman Bergson: and using that theory in our non-ideal situation would lead to improvement
[13:27] Kiki Walpanheim: which means, if ppl constantly keep infringe some law, then better make that legal and take advantage of ppl's traits in doing that to make things good for all
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: hi bejiita
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hi
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: puh finally
[13:27] Kiki Walpanheim: hi bijiita
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: lol
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: midsummer party
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Kiki..for instance abolish all drugs laws
[13:28] Bruce Mowbray: Like illegal downloads of movies, Kiki?
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: and then regulate it all
[13:28] Abraxas Nagy: hiya Bejiita :D
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hio
[13:28] Kiki Walpanheim: or intellectual property protection in virtual world for example
[13:28] Bruce Mowbray: yes, my point.
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: that is a liberatarian stance Herman, we all have the right to do with ourselves as we choose
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...
[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: instead of sending an army of lawers to sue everybody
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: drugs, suicide etc
[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: you can work with the creators
[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: let them use your brand, trademark, and work with them
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: I have yet to figure out what business that is of others
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well my friends.... I smell vacation coming up....
[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: w0oh0o!
[13:30] Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)
[13:30] Qwark Allen: ehehh
[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: are you going to the island again??????
[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗
[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗
[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm nice
[13:31] Qwark Allen: have great time heerman
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i have soom too
[13:31] herman Bergson: so may I thank you for all your participation and enthousiasm..
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: in July
[13:31] Qwark Allen: bejita m8
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: will be nice
[13:31] Classroom control: g
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: for the classes
[13:31] Abraxas Nagy: we thank YOU for your inspiring lectures herman
[13:31] Classroom control: g
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you very much Professor Bergson
[13:31] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:31] Classroom control: f
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:31] Qwark Allen: thank you very much
[13:31] Kiki Walpanheim: Thank you
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: lol love that
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: :)
[13:31] Sartre Placebo: thanks very much herman
[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: thanks for class Herman and that you still had a seat available :-)
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: much applause
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: o no particles
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: I hate that
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝
[13:32] Kiki Walpanheim: I hope in september my life does not get too overwhelmed so that I can still go back ;-)
[13:32] herman Bergson: I'll be back in September....
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: remember sunday parties at light tower for 80's hits
[13:32] Kiki Walpanheim: See you all in September hopefully
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: perhaps b4 then
[13:32] herman Bergson: Would be nice to see you again Kiki
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:33] Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)
[13:33] herman Bergson: Sunday parties seem to be good for me Gemma ㋡
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: corner party today
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: at 2
[13:33] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: aa ok
[13:33] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:33] Qwark Allen: the 80ies
[13:33] Qwark Allen: ,-)
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: not toda lol
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: aa sound nice
[13:34] herman Bergson: Thank you all
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: for now
appreciated!
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: see you soon!
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: have a great holiday herman and I hope to see you after :D
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu :)
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Gemma. Qwark
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes have a good holiday :)
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] herman Bergson: Have a nice vacation yourselves!
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] Bejiita Imako ♪♥♪APPLAUDS!!!♪♥♪
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: /zpp
[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman!
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: [/app
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: of course you will be in sl a while anway
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: :;;:+*'`'*+*'`'*+:;._((( HONK!! ))) _..;:+*'`'*+*'`'*+:;_
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: not away the whole time
[13:35] Qwark Allen: hopefully not
[13:35] Qwark Allen: -,-
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: bye
[13:35] herman Bergson: I stay in Sl.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: plenty to do here..
[13:35] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:35] Qwark Allen: great
[13:35] Alarice Beaumont: that is good :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: Only no lectures...
[13:36] Qwark Allen: maybe now we can have some time for a chess
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: It is a rythm...every tuesday and thursday...
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Nice to have a break....
[13:36] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:36] Qwark Allen: i`ll have it in august
[13:36] Qwark Allen: ;-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: it is much to warm in RL for a thing like that now
[13:37] Qwark Allen: eheheheh
[13:37] Qwark Allen: here it`s fine
[13:37] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:37] Qwark Allen: got to go
[13:37] Qwark Allen: see you soon
[13:37] herman Bergson: 24 degrees here C
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:37] Qwark Allen: 21
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ok cu all soon :)
[13:37] Qwark Allen: but now maybe 15
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Bejiita
[13:37] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita
[13:38] Alarice Beaumont: ok... have a great vacation then Herman
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: yesm Herman..have fun :)
[13:39] herman Bergson: you too ...thnx
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i wish you, a beautiful summer! much sun and much warm thanks herman! i look forward to septembers!
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: for philclass
[13:41] herman Bergson: thnx Bergie
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: must go off :-/
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all:-)
[13:42] Alarice Beaumont: nite nite Bergfrau!
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: b-bye bergfrau
[13:42] Alarice Beaumont: hoffe ich sehe dich bald mal wieder!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: make yourselves comfortable....
[13:43] herman Bergson: I got to go...Bye all
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: tanks Herman...bye for now
[13:44] Alarice Beaumont: bye bye Herman :-))
[13:44] Alarice Beaumont: hope to see you again :-)

255: The Ways of Liberalism 2

Society is a group of people, where everybody is born with his or her own set of skills. These skills are used to gain an income. The more skillful you are the higher your income can become.

Everybody is absolutely free to do with his income as he pleases. Any attempt to order the individual to spend his money on well defined targets is an infringement on personal freedom.

This means that every institution in society should be contract based. Those who pay for it, will benefit from it. Nobody is obliged to pay. Such an obligation is regarded as TAKING money from a free person and spending it against his will on issues he doesn't agree to.

A free market helps to select those who are good at different enterprises and those who are not. Any attempt to interfere with this process will disrupt the market.

From my Ayn Rand lecture"
"3.Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

4.The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism."

You find the Ayn Rand Lectures under May 2009, nr. 17a and 17b. Watch out, 17b also contains the more important ones 17c and 17d.

I think that this comes close to the views of TDDiscovery (participated in the discussion of the former lecture [254]), or at least he will agree with it. This is absolute liberalism. Maybe it is even a stronger version of liberalism: Libertarianism.

The origin of libertarianism is interesting, as it is inspired by the ideas of Bernard Mandeville, born in the Netherlands, Rotterdam in 1670, but most of his life he lived in England where he died in 1733.

Mandeville arrives at a very contemporaneously vile conclusion: vice as a necessary condition for economic prosperity. His viewpoint is more severe when juxtaposed to Adam Smith's.

Both Smith and Mandeville believed that individuals’ collective actions bring about a public benefit . However, what sets his philosophy apart from Smith’s is his catalyst to that public benefit.

Smith believed in a virtuous self-interest which results in invisible cooperation. For the most part, Smith saw no need for a guide to garner that public benefit.

On the other hand, Mandeville believed it was vicious greed which led to invisible cooperation if properly channeled.

Mandeville’s qualification of proper channeling further parts his philosophy from Smith’s laissez-faire attitude. Essentially, Mandeville called for politicians to ensure that the passions of man would result in a public benefit.

It was his stated belief in his book " Fable of the Bees" that "Private Vices by the dextrous Management of a skilful Politician may be turned into Publick Benefits”
Mandeville has nice examples to underpin his point of view that "private vices are public benefits." A libertine, for example, is a vicious character, and yet his spending will employ tailors, servants, perfumers, cooks, and prostitutes

Well, like the communist system has collapsed as a not working model of a society, also Mandeville's idea that greed leads to public benefits doesn't seem to make it. Our present crisis seems to demonstrates that.

So we have to continue our quest to gain moor insight in Liberalism. Is it a working model for society or not and in what way. At least we have to prevent that the world turns into a Tea Party…..


The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: The reference to the Tea Party may not be understood by everyone ㋡
[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate: OMG!!!
[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate: omg yes
[13:22] herman Bergson: But the Tea Party is a very strong ultra libertarian movement in the US today
[13:22] herman Bergson: Gemma understands...I expected that
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:22] Kiki Walpanheim is googling tea party
[13:22] Repose Lionheart: hehe
[13:23] herman Bergson: The Movement is more Republican than all Republicans together
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hmm checking too
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: yes it is and with no real leadership
[13:23] herman Bergson: and I have a feeling it is in its ideology appealing to Mandeville's truth: greed
[13:23] herman Bergson: and self-interest
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok now i get it
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: :)
[13:24] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks..plz feel free ㋡
[13:24] Repose Lionheart: well, stupidity too...hope politicians can channel stupidity toward good ㋡
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: oh gosh i doubt it
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:24] Repose Lionheart: so do i ㋡
[13:25] herman Bergson: Well stupidity is an improper word,Repose...
[13:25] Repose Lionheart: ignorance, maybe
[13:25] herman Bergson: It obscures the true reasons of this kind of political behavior
[13:25] Repose Lionheart: ahhh...
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: one winning candidate backed by the tea "party" has already put his foot so far down his throat yesterday he may not be able to get it out!
[13:25] herman Bergson: No...you have to ask for the motives of this behavior
[13:25] Repose Lionheart: i see
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: tried to take apart the civil rights law of the land
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: in some words
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: sometime i feel that politicans and organisations like those just read the rules and act like a computer on them with no feelings or own logic thinking
[13:26] herman Bergson: What does that mean Gemma?
[13:26] Kiki Walpanheim: but when everyone is acting on the self interest only...it is not always beneficial to the society as a whole...
[13:27] herman Bergson: In my lecture on Rand I already analyzed the concept of self-interest...
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: he stated that if he were around at the time of passage, there would have been a discussion on where it should apply to private businesses
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: one of the saddest examples here is the immigration society, they sometime send back people to a certain death or torture because " there are no circumstances in the rules that say they can stay"
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: make me really sad
[13:28] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: should the government prohibit private business from keeping certian people put of the place
[13:28] herman Bergson: Well clear libertarianism in that Tea PArty movement then I guess
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: we will see how far it goes
[13:29] herman Bergson: But about self - interest....
[13:29] Repose Lionheart: yes, there is, i think
[13:29] herman Bergson: It is a word and seems to describe a property of the human being
[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: it's about whether motives define morals, ,or consequence defines it
[13:29] herman Bergson: However...what does it denotes...?
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...you point at behavior...ok....but behavior includes motives
[13:30] Repose Lionheart: libertarians have a very narrow understanding of "self-interest"
[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Repose....so you have to look for the motives of behavior
[13:31] herman Bergson: and then the word self - interest becomes void...
[13:31] Repose Lionheart: they usually buy into the romanticism of hyper-individualisism
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: never really thought of that as the basic motive
[13:31] Kiki Walpanheim: self-interest might not be moral based on the intent, but based on the consequence, could be
[13:31] Repose Lionheart: yes ㋡
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: now i can see it lolol
[13:31] herman Bergson: for there is no such quality like self interest in humans
[13:31] herman Bergson: there are motives for actions...
[13:31] Repose Lionheart: oh, yes, i see
[13:32] herman Bergson: so to understand what it is all about we have to bring these motives to the surface and discuss these motives
[13:33] herman Bergson: Then we are talking politics
[13:33] Repose Lionheart: hmmm....
[13:33] Kiki Walpanheim whispers: on how self interest is restrained and guided?
[13:33] herman Bergson: One of the motives was greed....Mandeville believed it would lead to public benefit when channeled properly
[13:34] herman Bergson: It makes no sense to discuss something like self-interest...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hmm that can never lead to something good
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: as u said before thats what we see today
[13:35] herman Bergson: So it did...Bejiita..
[13:35] herman Bergson: The financial crisis is motivated only by greed....
[13:35] Kiki Walpanheim: just a synonym for greed...
[13:35] herman Bergson: maximizing the profits....for what good?
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: not a social good..that is clear
[13:35] Repose Lionheart: well, when the powerful are greedy, they are able to corrupt the system for their own benefit
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: very
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and in greece today, and Dubai, think they just can use money like water with no thought at all and look what have happened
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: totally crashed the economy now
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes REpose...but how much sense does it make?
[13:36] Kiki Walpanheim: in game theory, as in the case of prisoner's dilemma, it could lead to problems collectively...
[13:36] Repose Lionheart: libertarianism does not take such human frailty into sufficient account, i think
[13:36] Repose Lionheart: oh...sense
[13:36] herman Bergson: No..it doesnt....
[13:36] herman Bergson: But what I dont understand....
[13:37] herman Bergson: You get a bonus of 10 million dollar...
[13:37] herman Bergson: the next year another one...
[13:37] herman Bergson: what to do with all that money?
[13:37] Gemma Cleanslate: regardless of performance
[13:37] herman Bergson: Even that Gemma yes
[13:38] Repose Lionheart: ahhhh...maybe greed, and vice more generally, introduce irrationalities into the system
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes they want more and more even they cant make use of it
[13:38] herman Bergson: Why are people so attacted by huge sums of money...
[13:38] herman Bergson: You havent the lifetime to spend it all for instance
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:38] Repose Lionheart: the irrationalities undercut those like Mandeville who are ethically attempting to square the circle
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i use top say money is worhless untill u buy something good for it
[13:38] herman Bergson: Bill Gates is giving away lots of his billions to charity purposes…
[13:39] Gemma Cleanslate: oh he is great at giving money
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and the worth is in that thing cause that is useable for something while money is just money
[13:39] herman Bergson: yes...but the amount he posses is so absurd Gemma
[13:39] Gemma Cleanslate: I know and so does he
[13:39] herman Bergson: Property and the free accumulation of property...that is what our society approves
[13:39] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: too much money in few hands and the others can barley afford food for the day
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: his foundation gets MOST of it
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: thats not right
[13:40] herman Bergson: But I think ..at a given moment you pass the limit of rationality...
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: I agree
[13:40] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:40] Zinzi Serevi: yes
[13:40] Zinzi's translator: yes
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: that is why there is a huge oligarchy emerging here in the USA
[13:40] herman Bergson: That is what all these financial guys lack...rationality...which leads to ethics
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: most do not give
[13:41] Repose Lionheart: but that shows the system is not simply rational
[13:41] herman Bergson: It is not , indeed Repose...
[13:41] herman Bergson: That is the weak point of liberalism....
[13:41] Repose Lionheart: the libertarian flaw is just there
[13:41] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:41] Kiki Walpanheim: in cases of public goods, natural monopoly, environment......free market might not work that well
[13:41] herman Bergson: it presuposes a rational being, but the financial world shows proven irrational behavior
[13:42] Repose Lionheart: yesss
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:42] herman Bergson: No Kiki.....you are right....
[13:42] herman Bergson: What we have to find out is what is the public good
[13:42] herman Bergson: and how does it relate to private property
[13:43] herman Bergson: and what is the right balance between the two
[13:43] Kiki Walpanheim: like...public roads.. which benefit ppl in a society as a whole
[13:43] Repose Lionheart: yes, and not at all sure...
[13:43] Repose Lionheart: agree Kiki
[13:43] Kiki Walpanheim: electricity, water supply....
[13:43] Repose Lionheart: yes
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes..and these public roads..they offer individuals private property...
[13:44] Kiki Walpanheim: which is...built once in a large scale, then used for a long time
[13:44] herman Bergson: the trucking company which makes profits by using these roads
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hmm one example of that is a power company we have here in sweden called Vattenfall ( Waterfall)
[13:44] Repose Lionheart: oh
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: the bosses take bonus after bonus and give the consumers horrible bills to pay for those bonuses
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes...so our reseauch goes on....to define the public good....
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:45] herman Bergson: and bonus for what Nejiita?
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: also we have a strange system where the price is set after tle most expensive power which means that of one single coal plant wich is most expensive and have high environmental tax
[13:46] Kiki Walpanheim: and problems environment generally dont effect the firms' benefits unless they are more or less regulated
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: then it dont matter if we have 1000 hydrolants with cheap power running, the price is set after that last coal plant and also go to the bosses pockets
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: at least as i understand it
[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: sounds familiar
[13:47] herman Bergson: I know that system Bejiita...here the price of electricity is connected to the price of oil I think
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: no good thing
[13:48] Kiki Walpanheim: also in the case of health insurance....i am still not sure if it is wise if it is entirely private..regarding adverse selection..
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: factories that produce base stuff like paper steel and so have to close because of that
[13:48] Repose Lionheart: all very interesting...high prices though assure conservation
[13:48] herman Bergson: no...absurd because the power plants use cola of gas
[13:48] Repose Lionheart: and energy efficiency
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: that need lot of power but make stuff that are absolute neccesaru for society to function
[13:48] herman Bergson: coal...I mean...the employees use cola
[13:49] Repose Lionheart: lol
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: :)
[13:49] herman Bergson: powerd by cola
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehye
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: damn now u got me thirsty
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: :)
[13:49] Abraxas Nagy: haaaahaaaahaaaahaaaahaaa
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well I think it is clear that extreme liberalism doesnt work and that private vices dont lead to public benefits
[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:50] Repose Lionheart: ㋡
[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: more Tuesday?
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:51] herman Bergson: Oh yes Gemma....we still have a long and winding road ahead...
[13:51] Repose Lionheart: ㋡
[13:51] Repose Lionheart: yay
[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: i guess lol
[13:51] herman Bergson: that may lead to your door...but that is another story ㋡
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: this was some good stuff for sure
[13:51] Kiki Walpanheim: i used to think intentions determines if something is moral.....
[13:51] Abraxas Nagy: yep it always is m8
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: this is precisley those things im mad about every time i open a newspaper
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: now i got to vent that a bit
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:52] Abraxas Nagy: same here
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: lolol
[13:52] herman Bergson: I understand Bejiita...
[13:52] herman Bergson: Me too
[13:52] Abraxas Nagy: I better not start
[13:52] herman Bergson: Exactly Abraxas...
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: and look for something better
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: :)
[13:53] herman Bergson: But we will continue our quest into the realms of Liberalism....
[13:53] Abraxas Nagy: mmmm human nature plays a role
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: aah
[13:53] herman Bergson: So thank you for you great disussion again
[13:53] Kiki Walpanheim: Thank you professor and all
[13:53] Zinzi Serevi: thank you for the lecture
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:53] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:53] Daruma Boa: thank u herman
[13:53] Kiki Walpanheim: see you next week
[13:53] Gemma Cleanslate: see you tuesday
[13:53] Abraxas Nagy: ah thank YOU professor
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes..Abraxas...what is human nature...we might find out
[13:53] herman Bergson: class dismissed ㋡
[13:53] Saint Back: thanks a lot
[13:53] Repose Lionheart: Thank you, Professor ㋡
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: aa hope so
[13:54] Abraxas Nagy: mmm yes looking to politics shows a lot
[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: bye all
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ok cu all
[13:54] Daruma Boa: hope 2 be here next week.
[13:54] Abraxas Nagy: c ya Bejjita
[13:54] Abraxas Nagy: I hope so to Daruma
[13:54] herman Bergson: You are welcome Daruma
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: going to OKm now
[13:54] Daruma Boa: have a great weekend;-)
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: OM
[13:54] herman Bergson: What message did you send?
[13:54] Zinzi Serevi: bye bye
[13:54] Zinzi's translator: bye bye
[13:54] Abraxas Nagy: you to Daruma :D
[13:54] herman Bergson: Your notice?
[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thanks herman and class :-)) see u tuesday
[13:55] herman Bergson: Ok Bergie... xxx
[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)+y

(017d Ann Ryan and Self-interest)

[This is a lecture from the project 25+ Women Philosophers, which was not copied from the former blog]

Two soldiers escaped from the enemy camp. And in the process they succeeded in getting hold on top secret documents. If this information could reach their HQ it would absolutely save thousands of lives, might even end the war.

Half way their struggle through the desert they ran out of water. But they kept on going.The information had to reach HQ, all those lives at stake. Almost exhausted they stumbled on a bottle of water. Whoever left it there, it was the needed water.

It absolutely was enough for one man to survive and get to HQ to deliver the top secret information. Sharing the water would keep them both alive to die both halfway in the desert.

They sat down and opened their backpacks...there was a book. Ayn Rand on ethics. There should be the answer. It was...basic moral rule: self-interest. They looked at eachother, the bottle of water and the lifes saving information.

Reason is the quintessence....ok what kind of tool is it and in what way will it help our heroic soldiers, who know that only one can survive and save so many lives?

Here we touch the quintessence of philosophy. We never get the anwser, We only get the next question. But ok...let's quote Ayn Rand in this critical situation.

"Just as man cannot survive by any random means, but must discover and practice the principles which his survival requires, so man’s self-interest cannot be determined by blind desires or random whims,

but must be discovered and achieved by the guidance of rational principles. This is why the Objectivist ethics is a morality of rational self-interest—or of rational selfishness." (The Virtue of Selfishness “Introduction,” The Virtue of Selfishness, xiv; pb x.
)

The soldiers wondered. How to apply rational selfishness in this situation? And how would they know, if their choice would be rational? And does it mean that when they apply rational self-interest, they also can be sure that they do the right thing? They looked at eachother.........

Did they both die in the desert...did the info reach HQ ???


This idea that man is basically a selfish individual is not new at all. Thomas Hobbes (1588 -1679) is the first major philosopher, apart from Machiavelli, to present a completely individualistic picture of human nature. Even so individualistic that we still know the famous expression "homo homini lupus" which means "man is a wolf to his fellowman".

Only the fear of a war of everyone against everyone leads to the adoption of a regard for others from purely self-interested motives. Thus altruism is either a disguise or a substitute for self-seeking.

Since Hobbes this debate has continued through the ages. The difficulty with this debate is that it is close to psychology. On the one hand is chosen for a very specific description of the nature of man and on the otherhand one uses concepts like 'self-interest', "altruism", "benevolence", "sympathy" which lead to philosophical questions, when you try to elucidate them.

We have to face many questions. For instance, if self-interest would lead us to obey the rules of justice and if we had no natural regard for the public interest, how do the rules come into existence and what forsters our respect for them?

The crucial fact is, that did we have no respect for the rules of justice, there would be no stability of property. Indeed, the institution of proberty could not and would not exist. Hume therefore saw next to self-interest "a tendency to public good, and to the promoting of peace, harmony and order in society". In other words, the psychological picture of human nature is modified to find better explanation for human morality.

What I want to make clear is that the quintessence of philosophy is to question things and not to offer a doctrine, that should read like a rule-book for life. And this has become of the philosophy of Ayn Rand. It has become a philosophy of life as a kind of ideology and not somuch a systematic method of constant questioning one's postition.

What is to my interest depends upon who I am and what I want. The question "Is justice more profitable than unjustice?" will be answered differently depending on whether it is answered by a just man or an unjust man. For what the just man wants is not what the unjust man wants.

Thus, there is no single spring of action or a single set of aims and goals entitled "Self-interest", which is the same in every man. "Self-interest" is not in fact the name of a motive at all. A man who acts from self-interest is a man who allows himself to act from certain motives in a given type of situation.

In other words, 'Self-interest" is another word for acting from certain motives and to study morality we thus have to study these motives. We still have no definite answer on the question what drives the human being, what his motives are. Are they universal, individual or contexual? We are still working on it.


The Discussion

[13:23] hope63 Shepherd: but if we want to work on the study of motives.. we have to refer to other scientific knowledge,, and not limit it to the limited approach of mind/body/etc..
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: still thinking about what they will do
[13:23] ChatNoir Talon: Well the answer to the Information reaching the HQ is obvious
[13:23] hope63 Shepherd: to say.. philosophy based on historically developped thought..
[13:24] ChatNoir Talon: The information DID reach the HQ. and one of the soldiers made it.. otherwise we wouldn't know of the story :-)
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: not necessarily
[13:24] herman Bergson: I agree Hope
[13:24] hope63 Shepherd: chat.. they found the two dead.. with the bottle still full..
[13:24] herman Bergson: very clever ChatNoir ^_^
[13:24] ChatNoir Talon: :)
[13:24] ChatNoir Talon: Ahhh Touché
[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: The soldier who will continue on to HQ is a rational Darwinism answer, the stongest will save the others and the weakest will be left to die.
[13:25] ChatNoir Talon: I like that Ari
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: but is that not altruistic?
[13:25] hope63 Shepherd: whcih means trhey had rational elements to qualify a weaker or a stronger sri..
[13:25] hope63 Shepherd: ari
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: and so, we are still faced with his self-interest
[13:25] herman Bergson: What I wanted to point out is that I had no idea how to apply self-interest in this situation
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: and it's aparrent success
[13:26] ChatNoir Talon: Right.. is too ambiguous a term
[13:26] Alarice Beaumont: welll...self interest is to live...no?!
[13:26] herman Bergson: Butt hat is a problem with a lot of Rand's writings....
[13:26] hope63 Shepherd: why not play that famous game: herman has a baloon and the earth will collapse: now he can take 3 more.. give the arguments why it should be you..
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:26] ChatNoir Talon: It sounds like self-preservation.. but its hardly the same thing
[13:26] herman Bergson: the easy use of concepts and the lack of conceptual analysis
[13:27] herman Bergson: The more I read the more nervous I became
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: i do not think ayn rand would have an answer to this problem that would make sense to us
[13:27] herman Bergson: What she writes is clever and it read easily
[13:27] Hokon Cazalet: to me it seems to have a contradiction, both should take the bottle for themselves (be selfish), yet both cant live (ethical egoism seems to return us back to the war of all against all)
[13:27] Samuel Okelly: maybe one soldier was christian who decided to forego his own biological self interest in order to save the many in the sure knowledge that our biological state is a gateway and not "an end"
[13:27] hope63 Shepherd: that's what make me nervous too.. too easy to apply for too many..
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: Ms Rand was much too unforgiving with opponents of her theories, but like all philosohers, she had jewels and she had garbage
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: yes very !
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes true Aristotle
[[13:28] ChatNoir Talon: "One man's garbage is another man's dinner"
[13:28] Anne Charles: Ms Rand's Objectivism might work in a world where everyone
has a three-digit IQ with no mental aberrations and the
manual work is done by robots, but that world doesn't exist,
does it? Only in a work of fiction are her ideas workable.
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: Christians are not more altruistic thank no Christians
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: her confidence in her mind was almost insane if you ask me
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: much as i liked her works
[13:29] ChatNoir Talon: Yes, I don't like her too much :-(
[13:29] Samuel Okelly: they are when compared to rand, ari ;-)
[13:29] hope63 Shepherd: she tried to link self-interest to responsibility.. but i didn't find out how that would work..
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: Oh, I like her, but she would not be my friend, I think
[13:29] Mickorod Renard: too right Sam
[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: well maybe after a few glasses of wine...
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: I would argue that Christians as well as any other tribal religion is just as self-concerned as anyone else
[13:30] ChatNoir Talon: She's like the anti-ChatNoir
[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:30] hope63 Shepherd: ARI.. THIS WOULD BRING JUST TO THE QUESTION OF WHAT IS THE MOTIVE..
[13:30] Samuel Okelly: tribal????
[13:31] hope63 Shepherd: sorry..no yelling..:)
[13:31] Mickorod Renard: I agree Ari,,but christians are not afraid of self sacrifice
[13:31] ChatNoir Talon: I agree, Ari. Atheist can be just as selfish as christians... I guess it depends on the situation and their compromise to their faith
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: We like to think we are altruistic, but in all things there is a reward for the self
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: very true
[13:31] Hokon Cazalet: their faith doesnt matter in this case, rand advocates that we ought to be selfish, not just want it
[13:31] hope63 Shepherd: camus: la chute...
[13:31] ChatNoir Talon: But the big difference is Motive. If you do it for the reward or for the other
[13:31] herman Bergson: This is a concern in philosophical discourse since Hobbes
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: I think she advocates that it is not wrong to be selfish
[13:32] Hokon Cazalet: she says its good to be selfish
[13:32] herman Bergson: The empiricist side has more difficulty finding answers than the rationalist side
[13:32] Samuel Okelly: the arrogance of atheism lends itself perfectly to the nonsense which is randism
[13:32] Mickorod Renard: sometimes selfish doesnt cause others harm..
[13:32] ChatNoir Talon: But it hardly does the others any good
[13:32] Mickorod Renard: note sometimes
[13:32] herman Bergson: I think we need to stop for a moment...
[13:33] ChatNoir Talon: Halt!
[13:33] Anne Charles: Ms Rand held that compassion for the feeble, the flawed, the
suffering and the guilty is a cover for hatred of the
strong, the able, the virtuous, the successful, the
confident and the happy. Can this woman really be
considered rational? Or even human?
[13:33] herman Bergson: For the word 'selfish' is so easily used
[13:33] herman Bergson: do we really know we all use the same meaning?
[13:33] Mickorod Renard: yes Herman
[13:33] ChatNoir Talon: Let's define it, please (and I agree Anne.. she can come off as 'inhuman' in some contexts)
[13:33] herman Bergson: I think we should return to Hope's first remark..
[13:34] Hokon Cazalet: when i say selfish i mean something different than how my sister uses it, so thats a good point
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: Of course the survival of the most fit is naturally rational
[13:34] hope63 Shepherd: lets face it.. selfish is -as ari would say-- an archaic .. or a a priori,hokon?
[13:34] herman Bergson: For understanding the human condition we need to look at other sciences too....
[13:34] herman Bergson: There are for instance examples of animals sacrificing themselves for the group
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: yes hope I think we are hard wire to survive
[13:35] ChatNoir Talon: Lemmings! ^^
[13:35] hope63 Shepherd: chat.. tis lemming story in the disney film
[13:35] herman Bergson: Even an ant species...
[13:35] hope63 Shepherd: was made up..
[13:35] Mickorod Renard: even vines will Herman
[13:35] herman Bergson: they seal their nest every night to survive...
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, yes, but thes are not rational beings
[13:36] ChatNoir Talon: Those spider mothers wo become their children first meal
[13:36] herman Bergson: so a small group stays outside and close the entrances of the nest
[13:36] hope63 Shepherd: ari.. that is a rational rationality linked to man:) but nothing is contradicting rationality in nature..
[13:37] herman Bergson: No Aristotle....but is rationality the primary property of human kind?
[13:37] ChatNoir Talon: As rational being, I propose, we can see that ourselves are no more important in any important way than any other one. Can we say that our culture is better than any other? Can we say our life is worth more than any other? I don't believe so
[13:37] herman Bergson: Right ChatNoir
[13:37] ChatNoir Talon: Thus I can't rationally save my life first more than anyone elses
[13:37] Mickorod Renard: ayn rand would have to be described as a rational individual,,not human
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: You raise a good question Herman
[13:38] hope63 Shepherd: what did you believe chat.. and what can we know?
[13:38] herman Bergson: Just one observation....
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: It is like the question of god, does he exists merely because you can not disprove his existance
[13:38] herman Bergson: we do a lot with our rationality...but how much of our conduct is controled by other drives?
[13:39] Samuel Okelly: pandering to reductionist views and adopting them as "a given" highlights the inadequacy of a simple dualistic A or B option and forces us to reconsider the common rejection of platonic form
[13:39] Mickorod Renard: or does he not exist just cos we cant?
[13:39] Hokon Cazalet: i think Hume said "reason is and ought to be a slave to the passions"
[13:39] Laila Schuman: Can we say that our culture is better than any other? Can we say our life is worth more than any other? I don't believe so........ can we? i say that people do it every day...all day long... in arrogance
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: she did not preach against benelovence, but argued that altruism did not exist
[13:40] ChatNoir Talon: Exactly, Laila.
[13:40] Mickorod Renard: compassion is also a human trait
[13:40] herman Bergson: After all these centuries of philosophy ..we made some progress, but we are still at the beginning
[13:40] hope63 Shepherd: herman.. people are starting to tell me what they believe.. how can we know and what..?
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, Herman, each question sought creates more
[13:41] ChatNoir Talon: That's philosophy for ya
[13:41] herman Bergson: Because of all I have lectured about now and all the questions we discussed I have come to a conclusion
[13:42] Hokon Cazalet: well, we ask for a reason to things, yet we then need a reason for those justifications, and so on
[13:42] herman Bergson: I concluded that the mind is a recursive system....
[13:42] herman Bergson: when you look at the index of the book of life and you look for mind you will read
[13:42] herman Bergson: Mind....See mind
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: lol
[13:42] Mickorod Renard: curse as in curse?
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Hokon...
[13:43] ChatNoir Talon: hehe
[13:43] herman Bergson: As I said earlier...we constantly are biting in our own tail
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: have we become the dog chasing its tail for so long that our spines are bent in a fixed circle?
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle.....that is my impression at the moment
[13:44] herman Bergson: and I try to understand it
[13:44] Mickorod Renard: philosophy has and is the mother
[13:45] ChatNoir Talon: So it's a) Ask ourselves why are we chasing the tail or B) Run around
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: if we could just look off to the side and break out of our revolving path
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: welll not much has changed since we started all this over a year ago
[13:45] herman Bergson: True Gemma...
[13:45] herman Bergson: Some has changed.....our ideas have become more diverse
[13:46] Alarice Beaumont: well,. i think more about those questions then I did before
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: that may be true
[13:46] Alarice Beaumont: so .. i still don't talk much more lol
[13:46] Mickorod Renard: and our understanding of diferent idea's
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: we have been exposed to many thoughts
[13:46] ChatNoir Talon: I think philosophy's not about getting the deep answers of life. But it makes us think better :-)
[13:46] Samuel Okelly: we are a driven ppl
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: but we come back to the questions over and over
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: I think change comes slowly, and it is those jewels for each individulas thought that makes the progress
[13:46] hope63 Shepherd: instead of simplifying our lifes by what we learn.. you complicated it herman..lol
[13:47] herman Bergson: that was my point today ChatNoir
[13:47] ChatNoir Talon: ^^ Nicely done, sir
[13:47] Mickorod Renard: well some of us think we have made progress
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Hope...hopelessly complicated it gets...hmmmmm
[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: one hopes, Mick
[13:47] Mickorod Renard: just not in the same direction as you Ari
[13:47] Alarice Beaumont: well..the more one knows.. the moe one questions..
[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: :)))
[13:48] Mickorod Renard: there are many paths
[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: but isnt my direction the right one?
[13:48] Mickorod Renard: grin
[13:48] herman Bergson: Seeing the many ideas and possibilities makes life definitely more colorful
[13:48] ChatNoir Talon: Lol
[13:48] Mickorod Renard: I agree Herman
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: we all bend and affect each others path as we share ourselves with each other
[13:49] herman Bergson: So I think we have only one option....
[13:49] Samuel Okelly: hearing the views of others helps us to challenge what we believe or cement our beliefs more solidly
[13:49] herman Bergson: We have to continue our quest
[13:49] Mickorod Renard: do another year?
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: indeed
[13:49] Mickorod Renard: yeaaa
[13:49] ChatNoir Talon: It's a neverending quest.. that's the fun of it :-)
[13:49] herman Bergson: there are still a number of women philosophers to come
[13:50] hope63 Shepherd: you who isn't spoiled yet with 1 year of class hokon.. what do you think..
[13:50] Mickorod Renard: Did we include Jesus as a philosopher?
[13:50] Hokon Cazalet: hehe
[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:50] ChatNoir Talon: So maybe the dog just chases its tail because its exerciting and it fun :P
[13:50] Hokon Cazalet: my cats go after their tails for fun
[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: well, he certainly was that, Mick
[13:51] AristotleVon Doobie: I think my dog is insane
[13:51] hope63 Shepherd: that's hard training for rl hokon..
[13:51] ChatNoir Talon: Why would Jesus work as a carpenter when he could make a fortune as a baker?
[13:51] Mickorod Renard: my dog is a selfish control freak
[13:51] hope63 Shepherd: or with a mcdonalds..
[13:51] Hokon Cazalet: yummy
[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: oh god
[13:51] Alarice Beaumont: ,-)
[13:51] ChatNoir Talon giggles
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well I think that when we begin to think of MacDonnalds it is time to end our discussion ^_^
[13:52] Mickorod Renard: banker not baker?
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: yep !
[13:52] Hokon Cazalet: time for food =)
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: thanks Herman
[13:52] ChatNoir Talon: No, baker
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: exactly
[13:52] ChatNoir Talon: Thank you Herman!
[13:52] hope63 Shepherd: lol..
[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your interest and participation today :-)