393: The Utopia of the Free Market - Ayn Rand

Who was this woman, Ayn Rand, whose ideas had and still have such an impact on minds of Americans, but, tho she already was dead, on economical and governmental ideas in Europe too later, for instance in the person of Margaret Thatcher.

Born (1905) and educated in Russia, Rand,born Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum, moved to the United States in 1926. She worked as a screenwriter in Hollywood and had a play produced on Broadway in 1935–1936.

After two initially unsuccessful early novels, she achieved fame with her 1943 novel The Fountainhead. In 1957, she published her best-known work, the philosophical novel Atlas Shrugged.

Afterward she turned to nonfiction to promote her philosophy, publishing her own magazines and releasing several collections of essays until her death in 1982.

She had two favorite philosophers: Aristotle and Nietzsche. The first one she admired because of his realism and his logic. The second had a great influence on her with his theory of the übermensch.

Especially because her view of man, as described in her novel "Atlas Shrugged", there had developed a myth around her person. However, by far she isn't the Dagny Taggert in the novel.

From Heller's biography on Rand we learn, that in 1926 Rand's relatives had supported her and lent her money to give her the opportunity to continue to Hollywood.

Not only Rand forgot to pay back her loans, but she also told the story about herself that she was the complete self-made woman.

This fit with her basic idea about man: "I will never live for the sake of another, nor ask another man to live for mine." So she never liked to say "Thank you for your help"

In 1951 Rand moved from Los Angeles to New York City, where she gathered a group of admirers around her. Her novel "The Fountainhead" (1943) had given her many fans and supporters.

Among these fans were Allen Greenspan and Nathan Blumenthal (later Nathaniel Branden) and his wife Barbara.

In 1954 Rand's close relationship with the much younger Nathaniel Branden turned into a romantic affair, with the consent of their spouses. Rand was married herself to Frank O'Connor. Watch the movie "The passion of Ayn Rand"

Her Objectivism got more and more the characteristics of a cult. She became the guru of her group and tolerated no contradiction. Members of the group who yet tried, were banned from the group.

Even her lover Branden, whom she owed in fact so much because of his organizational talent, was banned eventually in 1968, when he fell in love with a younger member of the group.

Although her work has been greatly ignored by the academic world, she promoted her Objectivist philosophy among other things by giving talks to students at institutions such as Yale University, Princeton University, Columbia University,Harvard University and MIT.

As a typical example of Randian thinking this: Despite her negative views about the morality of homosexuality, Rand took a much more tolerant view of the legal rights of homosexuals.

She endorsed rights that protect gays from discrimination by the government (such as apartheid), but rejected the right to be protected from discrimination in the private sector (such as employment discrimination).

The basis of this conclusion was not related to her feelings about homosexuality, but rather a product of her stand on property rights.

Rand supported the right of a private property owner to discriminate, even on a basis that she condemned as immoral, such as racism, and that any act of the government to change this would be an intrusion on individual rights.

And if you want to know how man and woman will live together in her Atlantis: Rand asserted that "the essence of femininity is hero worship — the desire to look up to man" and that "an ideal woman is a man-worshipper, and an ideal man is the highest symbol of mankind."

In other words, Rand felt that it was part of human nature for a psychologically healthy woman to want to be ruled in sexual matters by a man worthy of ruling her.

These are only details about the woman, Ayn Rand. YouTube, Google and dozens of other URLs can provide you with further information.


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours
[13:24] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If I crash its because I spilt tea on my keyboard
[13:25] herman Bergson: Thought so....:-))
[13:25] Mick Nerido: Why do u think she was so influential in America?
[13:25] herman Bergson: There are good reasons for that Mick...
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: herman
[13:25] herman Bergson: In the first place she was in Hollywood very active in the anti communist movements...
[13:26] herman Bergson: so she already played herself into the picture...
[13:26] herman Bergson: A second reason is that the adored capitalism....and individualism…are basic beliefs of US culture...
[13:27] herman Bergson: Like here ideas about homosexuality...
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought she had a good balance of freedom there
[13:27] herman Bergson: on the individual level you may discriminate as much as you like....NO government control there
[13:27] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): The people that followed her, slavishly in some cases were clever people; did she have great personal charisma? Its hard to see what drew people to her
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): YES
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: in germany she still is almost unknown
[13:27] herman Bergson: Good observation Annie.....
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): this tells us her background but not how she became so influential in economics beliefs
[13:28] herman Bergson: this is a tricky issue....
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): A couple who run a guest house in UK were not allowed to exclude homosexuals
[13:28] herman Bergson: She was Jewish...
[13:28] herman Bergson: and her most devoted followers were too
[13:28] herman Bergson: maybe that created a bond....a cultural heritage...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: maybe plays a part
[13:29] herman Bergson: She had ...maybe...charisma....
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -
[13:29] herman Bergson: but when you look at Youtube and see her in some clips...
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): +-
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -+
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -+
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): --+
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): +
[13:30] herman Bergson: to be honest....for me she is really scary...
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): LOL
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i wonder about her poor husband
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bashing my keyboard to get water out
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...he ended up with the bottle...
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:30] herman Bergson: He was jealous of Branden....
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): branden's wife had a lot to say after it all
[13:31] herman Bergson: That was not allowed according to Objectivism however...
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are clips of her too
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): discussing it all
[13:31] herman Bergson: But when Branden in 1964 started a relation with Patricia..so and so
[13:31] herman Bergson: which came to her knowledge only in 1968 Rand was jealous herself too...
[13:32] herman Bergson: In the preface of Capitalism:The unknown Ideal she added in 1970....There is no relation at all between me and Nathaniel Branden...or something like that
[13:33] herman Bergson: So..all together ..she was just a human being....a woman....who didn't come close to the ideal human beings she dreamed of in Atlas Shrugged
[13:33] Mick Nerido: Whatever we think of her she was a sucessful novelist
[13:34] herman Bergson: No doubt about that Mick...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: thats true
[13:34] herman Bergson: And influential too...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: very
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: good at influencing
[13:34] herman Bergson: And at this moment in history we have to harvest the results of her Utopian ideas about the free market
[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): Some harvest...…
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...indeed...
[13:35] Mick Nerido: be careful what you wish for...
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think part of her charisma was that her philosophy was so different than anyone else's in America at that time it caught the imagination of the public
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: which are as we can see not working so good in real world
[13:36] herman Bergson: So in the coming lectures I gonna try to disect this idea of the free market and maybe find some answers...alternatives....adjustements
[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): So where are the new utopian ideals - a panacea for our current global dead end?
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Debbbie...that is what we are facing....
[13:36] Mick Nerido: She fit well with America's anti Communist idiology
[13:37] herman Bergson: The believe in the working of capitalism has become so obvious, that we believe that it is a law of nature...
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i hope you are putting keynes in here too sometime
[13:37] herman Bergson: Oh yes Gemmma.....
[13:38] herman Bergson: That is what they have been doing since the 80s...Reagan Thatcher.....murdering Keynes
[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:38] herman Bergson: and in my country they are doing the same now
[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh boy
[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): But it seems to be a law against nature. Faster consumption through growth is never going to solve anything
[13:39] herman Bergson: No Debbie....
[13:39] herman Bergson: this is really about basic ideas of economy....and how a society has to sustain itself...
[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): I just wish there were some new leaders with some good ideas
[13:39] herman Bergson: I'll spend a lecture on that issue...
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Rod
[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes. ty.
[13:40] herman Bergson: I agree Debbie....
[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Lizzy
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hi Rod
[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Bejiita
[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hi Rod
[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Debbie
[13:40] herman Bergson: For the time being it seems we have to live with the fact that we as individual citizens are no longer human beings , but just costs...
[13:41] Rodney Handrick: wow...I tend to agree
[13:41] herman Bergson: the word welfare has disapeared...
[13:41] herman Bergson: social solidaritiry too....
[13:41] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Hasnt this always been so Hermann
[13:41] herman Bergson: it is the individual that deserves the bones....that is what counts
[13:41] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): No one worries about "little people"
[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Except to take a dollar off each ;)
[13:42] herman Bergson: After World War II people joined forces.....
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): the ones that slaved over the pyramids
[13:42] herman Bergson: they had the feeling that they had to rebuild their country together...
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): or were slaughtered by the Huns
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): always same
[13:43] herman Bergson: with the increase of wealth...in the 80s....money and profit maximation became the new goals
[13:43] herman Bergson: individual profit
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): War has the effect of drawing a society together
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...sometimes you here that remark...."We actually need a new war"....horrible....but it is said sometimes
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): especially with the current levels of population
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well the way war is these days it would not work
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we sit at home and the war is elsewhere
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Unless you are in it !
[13:45] herman Bergson: So From now on we'll analyze this utopia of the free market and try to find the places where the sun is shining
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we are!!! but not there
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Cool Herman.
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): just paying for it all
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): And all the guns
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....
[13:46] herman Bergson: And next stage might be that we all get a drone which we can control with our computer and send to the enemy ...
[13:46] Rodney Handrick: War is an industry
[13:46] herman Bergson: Every citizen his own drone...!!!!
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Via the sl network. Maybe we can all stay at home and get virtually rich?
[13:47] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:47] Rodney Handrick: If we didn't have war we wouldn't have the Internet
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol some do
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): anshe chung
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is a millionaire
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yep, some do ;)))
[13:47] herman Bergson: True to some extend Rodney....
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: would be like in some movie i saw before every citizen lived at home and carried all duties by a robot connected to him
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: Surrogates was the name of the movie
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: the real people never left their homes
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: but lay in a pod all day controlling the robot
[13:48] herman Bergson: Internet is a spin off of the DARPA net, but the universities were also already working on such a data exchange system
[13:48] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman!
[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well Im sitting on the southern tip of africa, at the same time that I am here....
[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: thats nice for sure
[13:48] herman Bergson: Cool Debbie....or actually ...warm :-)
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes... warm. Autumn is coming.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well...enough gunpowder for a next lecture I guess....
[13:49] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your vivid participation....
[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Hermna, great lecture. I love the chat afterwards.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: now i just have to do a little fun thing
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:50] Ayla (ayla.fang): thank you Herman
[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol Bejiita
[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hey bejita - it's the cat
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: doesnt work
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol i see
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: parcel too full
[[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): ;(
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cant fit any more prims in here it seems
[13:51] Lilitha Crystal: I've been on a prim diet
[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): ah too bad:))
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: would been fun to end with

387: The Utopia of the Free Market - Capitalism....

While "Atlas Shrugged" was and probably still is a bestseller among students of American MBA institutes where the captains of industry are prepared for their job,

the book saw a Dutch translation only in 2007, and this just because it was 50 years ago, that it was published in the US and it was even self-published.

It IS the utopia of Capitalism, an economic system of which many people think, that it is the result of an objective process which is not the result of ideas of others or invented.

Nobody seems responsible for its intrinsic ideology and the obvious utopia, as described in "Atlas Shrugged". There would not exists something like "The Capitalist Manifest".

The opposite is true. "Atlas Shrugged" is this manifest, depicting the ultimate capitalist utopia. In addition to the novel Ayn Rand wrote a non-fiction "footnote" as she called it herself: "Capitalism, the unknown Ideal" (1966).

One of the contributors is that well known name: "Alan Greenspan is president of Town-send-Greenspan & Co., Inc., economic consultants."

The book is fascinating. Let me quote Rand herself:
This book is not a treatise on economics. It is a collection of
essays on the moral aspects of capitalism.

Our approach can best be summarized by my statement in the first issue of The Objectivist Newsletter (January 1962):

Objectivism is a philosophical movement; since politics is a branch of philosophy, Objectivism advocates certain political principles

—specifically, those of laissez-faire capitalism—as the consequence and the ultimate practical application of its fundamental philosophical principles.

It does not regard politics as a separate or primary goal, that is: as a goal that can be achieved without a wider ideological context

Politics is based on three other philosophical disciplines: metaphysics, epistemology and ethics—on a theory of man's
nature and of man's relationship to existence. It is only on such a base that one can formulate a consistent political theory and achieve it in practice… (…)

No politico-economic system in history has ever proved its value so eloquently or has benefited mankind so greatly as capitalism—and none has ever been attacked so savagely, viciously, and blindly."

She continues with stating that the truth about capitalism is secretly obliterated, not by a conspiracy of evildoers however,
-quote-" it cannot be done except with the tacit compliance of those who know better.

By their silence—by their evasion of the clash between capitalism and altruism—it is capitalism's alleged champions who are responsible for the fact that capitalism is being destroyed without a hearing, without a trial, without any public knowledge of its principles, its nature, its history, or its moral meaning. (…)

The method of capitalism's destruction rests on never letting the world discover what it is that is being destroyed—on never allowing it to be identified within the hearing of the young."

Now, when you take into account that Allen Greenspan, as a true disciple of Rand and her Objectivism, has systematically ignored all warnings regarding the oncoming financial crisis, the next words of Rand almost sound prophetic…..

"The guilt for the present state of the world rests on the shoulders of those who are over forty years old today (with a very few exceptions)—those who, when they spoke, said less than they knew and said it less clearly than the subject demanded. This book is addressed to the young—in years or in spirit— who are not afraid to know and are not ready to give up."

Of course Rand was thinking of other shoulders than those of Allen Greenspan and the Chicago-economists like Friedrich von Hayek and Milton Friedman.

But it is their Utopia of the Free Market and its shortcomings, that we now put under the magnifying glass and there we see that Rand's theory of man as being the rational, creative and productive individual, already is a utopia.


The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:20] : Kime Babenco raises hand
[13:21] Kime Babenco: Applause
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:21] herman Bergson: The floor is yours.... ^_^
[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting
[13:21] herman Bergson: floor
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: I like Rand's idea of blaming the older generation, as a general principle
[13:22] herman Bergson: laughs...
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate GIGGLES!!
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: ...LOL...
[13:22] herman Bergson: good idea Merlin
[13:22] herman Bergson: it was that generation that fed you and educated you
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: Well, I'm one too, but we all have predecessors
[13:22] Mick Nerido: Do you think man is not rational, creative and productive?
[13:23] herman Bergson: assuming you are the younger generation
[13:23] Merlin Saxondale: Im not!
[13:23] herman Bergson: Ahh Mick....good remark!!!!
[13:24] Mistyowl Warrhol: Never trust anyone over thirty..where have I heard that before LOL
[13:24] Merlin Saxondale: only the over 30's would remember that Misty
[13:24] herman Bergson: The point is that traditionally philosophy assumed that the essence of being human was being rational...have a ratio...think of Descartes
[13:24] Kime Babenco: People are not better than you can expect from people... Altruisme... Great... You find that among soldiers or miners,,, not in business at stock exchanges or at politics
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: as old as molecules
[13:24] herman Bergson: However...consciousness as we possess is way more that just being rational
[13:25] herman Bergson: No Kime…Rand even sees altruism as the ultimate destructive tool of capitalism and society
[13:26] Kime Babenco: When people have a lot of power... they like it... We have religious powers, political ones, and financial ones
[13:26] Beertje Beaumont gave you Snapshot : Bergson's, Wainscot (213, 213, 38).
[13:27] Mick Nerido: capitalism assumes everyone is selfish and make it a virtue...
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Mick...and that is a fundamental mistake...
[13:28] Kime Babenco: Is it the kind of society you would like ?
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Are we not all responsible for our selves?
[13:28] herman Bergson: even from an evolutionary point of view it can be shown that evolution has not led to ultimate selfishness as the way to survive
[13:28] Mistyowl Warrhol: Kime makes some very good points.
[13:28] oola Neruda: no man is an island...to quote another famous source
[13:28] herman Bergson: exactly oola!
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: she would never accept that
[13:29] Mick Nerido: Does Rand disagree with wealth philanthropy?
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: oh
[13:30] herman Bergson: the quintessential core question of this project is actuallly.....what is the relation between government and the free individual, I think
[13:30] herman Bergson: Like Bill Gates does Mick?
[13:30] oola Neruda: a bit like state's rights... i think...
[13:30] oola Neruda: which the civil war was fought over
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Yes like Gates, she thinks this is bad?
[13:31] herman Bergson: I guess she would disapprove of it yes
[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: primitive peoples have a lot of sympathy with on eanother, so what rand says leads to an inappropriate and unnatural way of life
[13:31] Mick Nerido: She is cold..
[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Lizzy....
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: she was very cold personally
[13:32] Kime Babenco: Well, I can give an example... In Brasil Lula (ex president) started the zero fame plan (no one with hunger)... And education encouraged... At the other side in USA, the so called rich country of the planet, about 4 million people have lost their house because of stupid bankers
[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: and why the silent majority stay silent, while the radicals use every means to shout their greedy ways.
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: take a look at her
[13:32] herman Bergson: She really misses the point obsessed by her anti collectivism as she is
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Communism was an attempt to spread the wealth evenly it failed...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Mick..communism is as unnatural as Rands Utopia , I would say
[13:33] Mick Nerido: I agree
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: In her time, there was no fast communication, so did she ever think that there would be those who would share their wealth and power. That was something that wasn't in the news then.
[13:33] Kime Babenco: Communism was a good idea maybe , but in ended up with an elite class of captalism
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Kime....
[13:34] herman Bergson: after 1989 all of a sudden there were russian mijardairs...
[13:34] herman Bergson: millionairs
[13:34] herman Bergson: I was flabbergasted....
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: billionaires now
[13:35] herman Bergson: How could that be possible
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: the top of the billionair list
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: came out yesterday
[13:35] herman Bergson: amazing
[13:36] herman Bergson: so...
[13:36] herman Bergson: the essential question here is...
[13:37] herman Bergson: what is the balance between government control and the individual freedom
[13:37] herman Bergson: The Free Market Utopia had its answer as formulated by Rand...
[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: difficult question
[13:37] Mick Nerido: tough question
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes it is....
[13:37] herman Bergson: For instance....
[13:38] Kime Babenco: Does one go into politics because of ideal ? Or because of personal benifits ?
[13:38] herman Bergson: All states in Europe are spending more money than they earn by taxes....all of them...
[13:38] herman Bergson: which household woulddo that for years?
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: here in the usa too
[13:38] herman Bergson: oh yes...
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: but of course two wars cost a lot
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: tsk
[13:39] herman Bergson: The problem is ....when you spend 10.000 dollars you dont have...
[13:39] herman Bergson: you go to a bank and take a loan on those 10.000
[13:39] herman Bergson: then you only have to pay...say...1000 a year for it....
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: After WWII, it was considered one's civil duty to pay taxes.
[13:39] herman Bergson: for 14 years...
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Governments can just print more money
[13:40] herman Bergson: those 1000 you can afford and for the public you can play Santa
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: the central banks Mick
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well..I'll go on withthis project
[13:41] Kime Babenco: But let's assume you asked 100 000 for the bank to buy a house... and have to pay it as 110 000 in 10 years , but suddenly the houses fall in prices, and the bank is out of money... They want your money still...
[13:41] herman Bergson: and maybe dismantle neoliberalism... ㋡
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes KIme....
[13:42] herman Bergson: those are the finacial bubbles
[13:43] herman Bergson: There is a flaw in your remakr Kime....
[13:43] herman Bergson: The 10 year contract stands...and the people can pay it ...
[13:43] herman Bergson: whatever the situation of th ebank is
[13:43] Kime Babenco: If failing banks have to be saved by the government when they fail... (so the tax payers), then why don't we see any money from it when they gain a lot ? So I guess banking is better be done by the offical governments maybe... Or at least a very strict control on it ...
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...without loosing us in all kinds of details....
[13:44] herman Bergson: I'd love to see you agian next Tuesday... ㋡
[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] herman Bergson: Tahnk you all for your participation...
[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:44] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman great subject
[13:44] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman:)
[13:44] Kime Babenco: Thank YOU ALL !
[13:45] oola Neruda: take care all
[13:45] oola Neruda: baiee
[13:45] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting lecture and ty :-)
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: you too
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: bye oola
[13:45] oola Neruda is Offline
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:45] Mistyowl Warrhol: Bye Gemma, tc :-)
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: bye everybody
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: yes, bye everyone from me too
[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: Bye all :-)
[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: we again have a lot to think about:)
[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: Yes, we do.

384: The Utopia of the Free Market ... Ayn Rand ethics

One of the most influential persons at the cradle of today's financial crisis is Allen Greenspan (1926), till 2006 president of the Fed, the Federal Reserve Bank, a powerful financial institution in the US and internationally.

He himself is not so convinced of his responsibility of the crisis. He prefers to blame 'human nature'. According to him it is a common fact that in times of prosperity people only want more and more.

The tenth commandment of christianity is "You shall not covet
your neighbor's goods.", which you could interpret as the advise, that you should control yourself, be content with what you possess and not be greedy.

In the book "Atlas Shrugged", in the creation of which Allen Greenspan played an important role, Ayn Rand turns the world upside down.

When she describes her utopia, her Atlantis, in her book "Atlas Shrugged", then chapter 2 in part III carries the title "The Utopia of Greed".

So, let's focus on Ayn Rand's philosophical ideas. She describes her philosophy of Objectivism thus:
1.Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

2.Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

3.Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

4.The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism.

In short is means 1. Metaphysics: Realism, 2. Epistemology: Reason, 3: Ethics: Self-interest and 4. Politics: Capitalism. Let's have a closer look at 'Reason'.

It sounds so obvious, that you are immediately inclined to say: sure... yes.. absolutely true. But let me ask you a simple question.... it says "reason is a means". We all will claim that we use our reason every day, but how does reason work? What kind of machinery is it?

"Philosopy: Who Needs It", pg 62: "Reason integrates man’s perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions, thus raising man’s knowledge from the perceptual level, which he shares with animals, to the conceptual level, which he alone can reach. The method which reason employs in this process is logic—and logic is the art of non-contradictory identification." Ayn Rand.

If this is a knowledge claim and I can't read it otherwise, I really have serious questions to ask, especially while Ayn Rand holds the view that we are born with an empty mind, a tabula rasa. All we know, we know by experience only. In other words..who sent her this revelation about reason?

Let us first put it into historical perspective. Historically we have two kinds of reason. The 17th century philosophers like Descartes saw Reason as opposed to Experience, while the philosophers of the Enlightenment saw Reason as opposed to Faith.

When we take an overall view of the work of Ayn Rand, her ardent condemnation of mysticism and religion, I would conclude that she uses the concept of reason in the way as the Enlightenment philosophers like D'Alembert and Voltaire did: reason as opposed to faith.

That doesn't bring us much further, but it is a start. The question I still want to see answered is, how can we have knowledge of the existence of reason?

In this form it becomes very clear that the question raises at least two highly disputable issues. First, it is far from immediately clear what reasoning is, on what occasion, in what activities or processes, reason is exercised.

And second, if we determine, probably with some degree of arbitrariness, what reasoning is (according to Rand it is "using logic"), it may very well be highly disputable whether this or that can or cannot be achieved by reasoning.

So, in the end, saying that reason is the only guide man has to survive is not clarifying the human condition that much. And if reason is opposed to faith I even encounter a paradox in Randianism, for you have to accept the truth of her philosophical axioms in good faith, which is against reason.

In my previous project I have shown, that reason is an overestimated faculty and that consciousness and our interaction with our environment for our survival is much more complex than the statement that there exists an objective world, which we understand by means of our reason.

A simplification, however, a simplification that is believed by many followers of Ayn Rand. Just google on this name or do a search with it in YouTube. Then you see, that it is still a current topic in the US.


The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you.....
[13:21] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:21] Merlin Saxondale: Herman
[13:21] herman Bergson: Merlin... ㋡
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: When we started this I thought you were in great a greememt with Rand, but now you seem less so.
[13:22] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:22] herman Bergson: I never have been in agreement with Rand Merlin....
[13:23] Merlin Saxondale: Oh OK. It was my first impression at the first talk
[13:23] herman Bergson: First of all....using words like reason giv ethe impression that you are talking about something distinct...
[13:23] Qwark Allen: what come to my mind when you talked about that "reason" definition, is that after all, it`s ruled the same way as "free will"
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes that can be true
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: seems related in a way
[13:24] Mick Nerido: Rand reason = common sense?
[13:24] Qwark Allen: somehow, feeling that reason and freewill are not on our side
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: cause its our will that make us eason
[13:24] Qwark Allen: like we have seen before
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: reason
[13:24] herman Bergson: in the previous project we have learnt how th ebrain wokrks....and that is definitely doesnt work only by using reason (whatever that may be)
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: at least in some way
[13:24] Qwark Allen: we are orientated to the reason , "others" want
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: if i say i have a reason for something its because my own will make me reason that way
[13:25] herman Bergson: Waht I want to make clear from the beginnning at least is that Rand's philosophy is begging the question
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: whan I want
[13:26] herman Bergson: she just defines her concepts as it suits her philosophicla interpretation of the human being
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: but reasoning is also about taking into conciderationn some ethic rules i think, is this om to do?
[13:26] herman Bergson: and his motives and drives
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: reason is also influenced by education, not only logic
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: to do
[13:26] Qwark Allen: its very cultural thing
[13:26] oola Neruda: i was struck by the phrase... not sacrifice others...which i see as counter to the rest of what she has said
[13:26] Mick Nerido: we are in agreement that there is an objective reality...
[13:27] Qwark Allen: and in our society ruled by mass media
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy, but we then first need a clear definition of reason....
[13:27] herman Bergson: We know that it is a brain function...even coming from which part...
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: aa yes we reason in a certain way cause we either have learned that it works this and that way and this and this is ok and that is not
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: thus reason must by very individual
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: however some people reason otherwise it seems
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is aninteresting point too Bejiita...
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Reason is one way of seeing that ojective world...
[13:28] herman Bergson: the generalization of the concept of Reason.....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: greedy people for ex reason only for their own cares and dont care all about others
13:28] Bejiita Imako: but they still reason that "its ok"
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: and sleep well at night
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: seems so
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita... ㋡
[13:29] herman Bergson: And they base their reasoning on the ideas of self-interest as developed by Ayn Rand
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that can very much be true
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: getting bad influences
[13:29] herman Bergson: And then say...well....this is just how an objective reality functions...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that affect their reasoning
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: in a bad way
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that greesiness is ok
[13:30] herman Bergson: I am a part of this objective reality as my reason is...so I am objective in what I do
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: greediness
[13:30] herman Bergson: no...we shouldn't use the word greediness anymore form now on...
[13:30] herman Bergson: we call it self-interest
[13:31] Mistyowl Warrhol: Think you had it right the first time, Bejiita. greesiness :)
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ehhee i was thinking the same
[13:31] Qwark Allen: sticks the same way to people
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehehe well they really are some greasy types some of those rich high ones up there
[13:31] Mistyowl Warrhol: Grease the hand, etc.
[13:31] herman Bergson: hello Clerisse ㋡
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: a big mess
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: big and sticky mess
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:32] Clerisse Beeswing: Hello Professor ! Sorry I am late
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Nations behave the same for their self interest
[13:32] herman Bergson: The main idea of Rand is that altruism is a horror, the biggest mistake mankind made ever
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes that as well
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: North Korea is an extreme example of that id say
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: really sad story
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: that need to be changed
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: read some article recently in the news about it
[13:33] Qwark Allen: i agree totally with Ayn in some things, and totaly disagree in other
[13:33] Qwark Allen: she had a really good vision what was about to society to become
[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Qwark....yes but not the way she dreamt it would go...
[13:34] Mick Nerido: In America there is the "frontier" mentality... rugged individualism
[13:34] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: it is fascinating that she has a logic concept
[13:34] herman Bergson: the current neoliberalism, the Tea Party ideas....
[13:34] herman Bergson: all aiming at destroying the welfare state...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:35] Mistyowl Warrhol: Reason is the process we use to take past experiences and knowledge with what feels good to us, to create a truth we think should apply to all. That is reasonable, unless you disagree with that 'reasonable" person.
[13:35] herman Bergson: destroying on what principle we used in the 60s.....solidarity as the leading principle of a society
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes might be
[13:35] Qwark Allen: seems every time more a utopia
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes unfortunatley
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: gets worse and worse instead
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: going in completely wrong direction
[13:36] herman Bergson: all privatization these days....all utopia of the working of the free market....!
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: really worrying
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: but solidarity is reasonable, isn't it?
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example....
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: in sweden they have ruined both the reailroads and the eldery care by privatizing them
[13:37] herman Bergson: We have notaries in the Netherlands....
[13:37] herman Bergson: They used to have fixed rates....
[13:37] herman Bergson: There was a TV program on how to make a good testament....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and now the old people die in their feces because the owner want to build a luxury house worth 6 million dollars
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: really nasty
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and the railroads here work worse and worse and get so expensive its cheaper to fly instead
[13:38] Merlin Saxondale: Someone said that before
[13:38] herman Bergson: the rates for that specific action ran from 215 euro to 690 euro....for the same action!
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: that's insane
[13:38] Qwark Allen: awesome
[13:38] herman Bergson: The rates are free note....free market...competition...you remember...
[13:38] herman Bergson: well...
[13:39] herman Bergson: the old fixed rat e for the action was 460 euro....
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes that's how it all works today
[13:39] herman Bergson: what happened....
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: Breaking news on CNN. maybe a little bit about what we are discussing.. "Dow closes over 13,000 for first time since 2008 after a 25-point gain on lower crude prices and strong consumer report." Speaking of greed.
[13:39] herman Bergson: within a week ALL notaries in the Netherlands charged 460 euro for the action...
[13:39] herman Bergson: thta is how this so called free market should work...
[13:40] herman Bergson: One big mistake....
[13:40] Merlin Saxondale: Do I need to know what notaries are?
[13:40] herman Bergson: Same with the dentists this year.....
[13:40] Qwark Allen: according to ayn rand the free market should have rules, and rulers
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes you cant just let it run away like it does today
[13:41] herman Bergson: these are layers...special kind who draw up testaments, mortgage contracts things like that
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: then the greedy ones take over and everything escalates
[13:41] Merlin Saxondale: ah ok ty
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: thats what we see today
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...take the dentists for instance....
[13:41] Qwark Allen: omg
[13:41] herman Bergson: They clal it an experiment...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: banks health care everything will soon be only for rich people and the poor will not survive, that seems the way they reason in general
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: that to survive you need lot of money
[13:42] herman Bergson: They had fixed rates...and this year they are free to set their rates...
[13:42] Zinzi Serevi: i have to go, thanks for the lecture Herman , bye bye all
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: money
[13:42] herman Bergson: Should stimulate competition...
[13:42] Mick Nerido: we could go back to the Feodal system lol
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ok ZInzi
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:42] herman Bergson: And you know what happened....all dentists increased their rates
[13:42] Beertje Beaumont: yesterday I heard that 30% !! of the households in the Netherlands can't pay their regular bills
[13:42] Qwark Allen: in a way we are at a feudal system, ruled by few organizations
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:43] Qwark Allen: no longer politics are in charge
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: the bosses of the organizations
[13:43] Qwark Allen: but lobbies
[13:43] Clerisse Beeswing: even in usa things cost
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: and now people come all to germany for the teeth
[13:43] Hagar: ellos
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy.... ㋡
[13:43] Merlin Saxondale: People were going to Hungary etc from UK for dentistry
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes dental ahd healthcare should logically be something for everyone but not today
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and
[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Now the Hungarian dentists have come here.
[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Mine is one!
[13:44] herman Bergson: So, I guess you see how important it is that we dismantle the Utopia of the Free Market....
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aa yes it has gone totally out of control
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: cause nothing to create ethic rules
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the bosses and directors decide
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: it becomes like a nuclear reactor with no control rods = KABOOOOOM!
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: and we can't trust the politicians
[13:45] Merlin Saxondale: lol
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: runaway
[13:45] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: oh yes Bejiita
[13:45] Qwark Allen: that is why i like ayn rand, and her vision, we should make the separation of state and economics
[13:45] herman Bergson: next lecture I'll elaborate on the third point of Rand's philosophy
[13:45] herman Bergson: 3.Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
[13:45] Qwark Allen: so politics are not on government for the economics
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: yeah. I missed that one as a child
[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: lol Merlin
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: Jesus's selflessness was the big thing then
[13:46] herman Bergson: The big debate is Keyensian against Neoliberalism or worse..the Tea Party ideas...
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: Not getting any arguments from me about the Tea Party.
[13:47] oola Neruda: with the super pacs funding campaigns now... i think that an elected post is "bought" by a rich few
[13:47] oola Neruda: who pull the strings of the ones they have funded
[13:47] Qwark Allen: off course
[13:47] herman Bergson: I'll show you that the way our society is organized is not an basolute...an obvious conclusion....
[13:47] herman Bergson: Economy has its own history too...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Our idea of making profit is only a 15o years old
[13:48] Mick Nerido: The world id flat...
[13:48] Qwark Allen: hehehe
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well Columbus showed us that the earth was round in 1492 ㋡
[13:49] Qwark Allen: vasco da gamma, was first in americas then colombo
[13:49] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:49] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: when you are living in this profit system you have to adapt or you will go down
[13:49] herman Bergson: ok...Next lecture on the ethics of Rand.....
[13:49] Mick Nerido: Flat econimically speaking :-00
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation ㋡
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: time will tell about anything else
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman
[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:50] Qwark Allen: i think the iranians want to flat the world in another way
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting :-)
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: Thanks professor
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: very interesting as always
[[13:50] Qwark Allen: very interesting
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu next time
[13:50] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:50] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Iran just wants to join the club
[13:51] Beertje Beaumont: thank you professor
[13:51] Qwark Allen: i think they want to flat the world
[13:51] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe no north korea is
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lets see how it goes this year
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: first Kim starves his own people then annihilate us all with nuclear weapons
[13:51] Qwark Allen: hehehehe
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hope that does NOT happen
[13:51] herman Bergson: yes exciting times Bejiita...
[13:51] Merlin Saxondale: Bye Herman and everyone
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: shudders
[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody
[13:52] Qwark Allen: yes, that will be the end of this class for sure
[13:52] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡

265: The Concluding Lecture of The Ideal State Project

We have come a long way and passed many stations. And here we are: apparently at Fukuyama Station. The train has stopped and our only passenger, Miss Egalitarian Liberalism, gets off the train.

She hesitates. There are two exits to the moral foundation of Political philosophy. One leads to a Kantian ethics of Duty, while the other leads to the utilitarian approach of ethics.

It feels so obvious that we have stopped at this station and that Miss EL is our only companion, but is it so obvious? After all utopias we have visited, is miss EL and what she carries in her bag, the free market, not a utopia too?

In fact the financial crisis we are in now, has proven that the financial world believed in a utopia of unlimited free markets and capitalism.

And the most well read utopia novel next to the bible, that teaches us this utopia, is "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) by Ayn Rand. This was revealed by a research of Time magazine among its readers.

And that this utopia was put to practice is due to one of the closest disciples of Ayn Rand, Alan Greenspan, till 2006 the president of the American Federal Reserve Bank.

The financial politics of this bank affect everyone in this world. This has made the financial crisis pretty clear.

Greenspan was rather upset by the crisis, when he said to the committee of the American congress "Most of us, and me in particular, are shocked and still can not believe it"

And as he continued, there has to be"an error in the conviction that the free market can regulate itself much better than any governmental supervision could do"

When Greenspan described the rise of free market capitalism in the 60s of the past century, he referred to two persons in one breath: Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman.

He was a loyal disciple of Rand and the utopia of "Atlas Shrugged" and he was in the position to put it into practice worldwide. heads of state like Thatcher and Reagan followed him by the book:

privatization of government services (post, energy, transportation, health care etc.), progressive deregulation of the economy and minimizing influences of the trade unions.

This opened the gates to that for which Aristotle already warned us: GREED. The highest goal in his opinion is not the accumulation of as many wealth as possible, but to live a virtuous and good life.

Aristotle was the first one to discover the concept of economy (oikonomia): the management of the household. For that you need goods, of course.

But the acquisition of goods by purchase or exchange is something different, called chremastike (the earning of money). As he says in his Ethica:

"The way of life of chremastike is only forced to choose; wealth is obviously not the good we are looking for. It is a commodity, a means to an end"

The elementary economics was based on exchanging good, a pair of shoes for a bag of corn. With the invention of money the acquiring of the corn could be postponed till later.

As Aristotle says in his Politica: "Due to chremastike people believe that that there is no limit to wealth." He already understood human nature, developed from real hunter to hunter for moor e..and more..and more only.

The next step was the behavior Aristotle really condemned: making money with money. There is no intermediate good anymore, just money to acquire money.

We live in a world, which was predicted by a philosopher more than 2000 years ago. If we loose sight of the true meaning of life and only believe in greed, it will lead to disaster.

Therefore I suggest that we ask Miss EL to get on the train again. This cannot be the end station.



The Discussion


[13:23] herman Bergson: This concludes the series on the Ideal State ^_^
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: and we still dont have one lol
[13:23] Qwark Allen: indeedº
[13:23] Designing Worlds Messages: Changes at Linden Lab! Join us for an iimportant TV discussion today at 2pm - see the notecard for details and landmark.
[13:23] Qwark Allen: seems utopian
[13:23] herman Bergson: No Gemma, but we are working on it.....
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: even Greenspan now admits he made grave errors
[13:23] Kiki Walpanheim: APPLAUSE for the last lecture this semester
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: errors of judgement
[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you Kiki
[13:24] herman Bergson: I think we deserve a vacation
[13:24] Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
[13:24] Kiki Walpanheim: will miss you all
[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: we sure will
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: come to our parties lolo
[13:24] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd
[13:24] herman Bergson: I will be back in September....
[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: in the US, the winner of the Hamiltonian/Jeffersonian struggle by Lincoln doomed us to the policies of Mr Greenspan doomed
[13:24] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:24] Kiki Walpanheim: nods
[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: ah
[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:25] Kiki Walpanheim: ty
[13:25] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd
[13:25] herman Bergson: I am thinking of a project called The Mysteries of the Brain...
[13:25] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:25] >>: Qwark Allen starts swaying to the music.
[13:25] Sartre Placebo: thx herman :)
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: hmmmm
[13:25] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:25] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: i followed some of the blogs... so interesting subjects!
[13:25] herman Bergson: To dig into the great influence neurobiological reseach has on fundamental philosophical issues
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: it was yes
[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: i don't think there ever can be a perfect state lol
[13:26] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: that would be interesting Herman
[13:26] Qwark Allen: seems a utopia
[13:26] herman Bergson: No Bruce
[13:26] Bruce Mowbray: Did I say something?
[13:26] herman Bergson: But the idea of Rawls was that Political philosophy can get close to the ideal theory....
[13:26] Kiki Walpanheim: I read of something interesting yesterday --let the inmates run the asylum
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: agreeing we dont know yet
[13:26] herman Bergson: and using that theory in our non-ideal situation would lead to improvement
[13:27] Kiki Walpanheim: which means, if ppl constantly keep infringe some law, then better make that legal and take advantage of ppl's traits in doing that to make things good for all
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: hi bejiita
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hi
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: puh finally
[13:27] Kiki Walpanheim: hi bijiita
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: lol
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: midsummer party
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Kiki..for instance abolish all drugs laws
[13:28] Bruce Mowbray: Like illegal downloads of movies, Kiki?
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: and then regulate it all
[13:28] Abraxas Nagy: hiya Bejiita :D
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hio
[13:28] Kiki Walpanheim: or intellectual property protection in virtual world for example
[13:28] Bruce Mowbray: yes, my point.
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: that is a liberatarian stance Herman, we all have the right to do with ourselves as we choose
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...
[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: instead of sending an army of lawers to sue everybody
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: drugs, suicide etc
[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: you can work with the creators
[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: let them use your brand, trademark, and work with them
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: I have yet to figure out what business that is of others
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well my friends.... I smell vacation coming up....
[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: w0oh0o!
[13:30] Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)
[13:30] Qwark Allen: ehehh
[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: are you going to the island again??????
[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗
[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗
[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm nice
[13:31] Qwark Allen: have great time heerman
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i have soom too
[13:31] herman Bergson: so may I thank you for all your participation and enthousiasm..
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: in July
[13:31] Qwark Allen: bejita m8
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: will be nice
[13:31] Classroom control: g
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: for the classes
[13:31] Abraxas Nagy: we thank YOU for your inspiring lectures herman
[13:31] Classroom control: g
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you very much Professor Bergson
[13:31] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:31] Classroom control: f
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:31] Qwark Allen: thank you very much
[13:31] Kiki Walpanheim: Thank you
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: lol love that
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: :)
[13:31] Sartre Placebo: thanks very much herman
[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: thanks for class Herman and that you still had a seat available :-)
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: much applause
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: o no particles
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: I hate that
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗
[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝
[13:32] Kiki Walpanheim: I hope in september my life does not get too overwhelmed so that I can still go back ;-)
[13:32] herman Bergson: I'll be back in September....
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: remember sunday parties at light tower for 80's hits
[13:32] Kiki Walpanheim: See you all in September hopefully
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: perhaps b4 then
[13:32] herman Bergson: Would be nice to see you again Kiki
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:33] Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)
[13:33] herman Bergson: Sunday parties seem to be good for me Gemma ㋡
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: corner party today
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: at 2
[13:33] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: aa ok
[13:33] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:33] Qwark Allen: the 80ies
[13:33] Qwark Allen: ,-)
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: not toda lol
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: aa sound nice
[13:34] herman Bergson: Thank you all
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: for now
appreciated!
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: see you soon!
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: have a great holiday herman and I hope to see you after :D
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu :)
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Gemma. Qwark
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes have a good holiday :)
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] herman Bergson: Have a nice vacation yourselves!
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] Bejiita Imako ♪♥♪APPLAUDS!!!♪♥♪
[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: /zpp
[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman!
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: [/app
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: of course you will be in sl a while anway
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: :;;:+*'`'*+*'`'*+:;._((( HONK!! ))) _..;:+*'`'*+*'`'*+:;_
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: not away the whole time
[13:35] Qwark Allen: hopefully not
[13:35] Qwark Allen: -,-
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: bye
[13:35] herman Bergson: I stay in Sl.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: plenty to do here..
[13:35] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:35] Qwark Allen: great
[13:35] Alarice Beaumont: that is good :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: Only no lectures...
[13:36] Qwark Allen: maybe now we can have some time for a chess
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: It is a rythm...every tuesday and thursday...
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Nice to have a break....
[13:36] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:36] Qwark Allen: i`ll have it in august
[13:36] Qwark Allen: ;-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: it is much to warm in RL for a thing like that now
[13:37] Qwark Allen: eheheheh
[13:37] Qwark Allen: here it`s fine
[13:37] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:37] Qwark Allen: got to go
[13:37] Qwark Allen: see you soon
[13:37] herman Bergson: 24 degrees here C
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:37] Qwark Allen: 21
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ok cu all soon :)
[13:37] Qwark Allen: but now maybe 15
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Bejiita
[13:37] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita
[13:38] Alarice Beaumont: ok... have a great vacation then Herman
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: yesm Herman..have fun :)
[13:39] herman Bergson: you too ...thnx
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i wish you, a beautiful summer! much sun and much warm thanks herman! i look forward to septembers!
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: for philclass
[13:41] herman Bergson: thnx Bergie
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: must go off :-/
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all:-)
[13:42] Alarice Beaumont: nite nite Bergfrau!
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: b-bye bergfrau
[13:42] Alarice Beaumont: hoffe ich sehe dich bald mal wieder!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: make yourselves comfortable....
[13:43] herman Bergson: I got to go...Bye all
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: tanks Herman...bye for now
[13:44] Alarice Beaumont: bye bye Herman :-))
[13:44] Alarice Beaumont: hope to see you again :-)

(017d Ann Ryan and Self-interest)

[This is a lecture from the project 25+ Women Philosophers, which was not copied from the former blog]

Two soldiers escaped from the enemy camp. And in the process they succeeded in getting hold on top secret documents. If this information could reach their HQ it would absolutely save thousands of lives, might even end the war.

Half way their struggle through the desert they ran out of water. But they kept on going.The information had to reach HQ, all those lives at stake. Almost exhausted they stumbled on a bottle of water. Whoever left it there, it was the needed water.

It absolutely was enough for one man to survive and get to HQ to deliver the top secret information. Sharing the water would keep them both alive to die both halfway in the desert.

They sat down and opened their backpacks...there was a book. Ayn Rand on ethics. There should be the answer. It was...basic moral rule: self-interest. They looked at eachother, the bottle of water and the lifes saving information.

Reason is the quintessence....ok what kind of tool is it and in what way will it help our heroic soldiers, who know that only one can survive and save so many lives?

Here we touch the quintessence of philosophy. We never get the anwser, We only get the next question. But ok...let's quote Ayn Rand in this critical situation.

"Just as man cannot survive by any random means, but must discover and practice the principles which his survival requires, so man’s self-interest cannot be determined by blind desires or random whims,

but must be discovered and achieved by the guidance of rational principles. This is why the Objectivist ethics is a morality of rational self-interest—or of rational selfishness." (The Virtue of Selfishness “Introduction,” The Virtue of Selfishness, xiv; pb x.
)

The soldiers wondered. How to apply rational selfishness in this situation? And how would they know, if their choice would be rational? And does it mean that when they apply rational self-interest, they also can be sure that they do the right thing? They looked at eachother.........

Did they both die in the desert...did the info reach HQ ???


This idea that man is basically a selfish individual is not new at all. Thomas Hobbes (1588 -1679) is the first major philosopher, apart from Machiavelli, to present a completely individualistic picture of human nature. Even so individualistic that we still know the famous expression "homo homini lupus" which means "man is a wolf to his fellowman".

Only the fear of a war of everyone against everyone leads to the adoption of a regard for others from purely self-interested motives. Thus altruism is either a disguise or a substitute for self-seeking.

Since Hobbes this debate has continued through the ages. The difficulty with this debate is that it is close to psychology. On the one hand is chosen for a very specific description of the nature of man and on the otherhand one uses concepts like 'self-interest', "altruism", "benevolence", "sympathy" which lead to philosophical questions, when you try to elucidate them.

We have to face many questions. For instance, if self-interest would lead us to obey the rules of justice and if we had no natural regard for the public interest, how do the rules come into existence and what forsters our respect for them?

The crucial fact is, that did we have no respect for the rules of justice, there would be no stability of property. Indeed, the institution of proberty could not and would not exist. Hume therefore saw next to self-interest "a tendency to public good, and to the promoting of peace, harmony and order in society". In other words, the psychological picture of human nature is modified to find better explanation for human morality.

What I want to make clear is that the quintessence of philosophy is to question things and not to offer a doctrine, that should read like a rule-book for life. And this has become of the philosophy of Ayn Rand. It has become a philosophy of life as a kind of ideology and not somuch a systematic method of constant questioning one's postition.

What is to my interest depends upon who I am and what I want. The question "Is justice more profitable than unjustice?" will be answered differently depending on whether it is answered by a just man or an unjust man. For what the just man wants is not what the unjust man wants.

Thus, there is no single spring of action or a single set of aims and goals entitled "Self-interest", which is the same in every man. "Self-interest" is not in fact the name of a motive at all. A man who acts from self-interest is a man who allows himself to act from certain motives in a given type of situation.

In other words, 'Self-interest" is another word for acting from certain motives and to study morality we thus have to study these motives. We still have no definite answer on the question what drives the human being, what his motives are. Are they universal, individual or contexual? We are still working on it.


The Discussion

[13:23] hope63 Shepherd: but if we want to work on the study of motives.. we have to refer to other scientific knowledge,, and not limit it to the limited approach of mind/body/etc..
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: still thinking about what they will do
[13:23] ChatNoir Talon: Well the answer to the Information reaching the HQ is obvious
[13:23] hope63 Shepherd: to say.. philosophy based on historically developped thought..
[13:24] ChatNoir Talon: The information DID reach the HQ. and one of the soldiers made it.. otherwise we wouldn't know of the story :-)
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: not necessarily
[13:24] herman Bergson: I agree Hope
[13:24] hope63 Shepherd: chat.. they found the two dead.. with the bottle still full..
[13:24] herman Bergson: very clever ChatNoir ^_^
[13:24] ChatNoir Talon: :)
[13:24] ChatNoir Talon: Ahhh Touché
[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: The soldier who will continue on to HQ is a rational Darwinism answer, the stongest will save the others and the weakest will be left to die.
[13:25] ChatNoir Talon: I like that Ari
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: but is that not altruistic?
[13:25] hope63 Shepherd: whcih means trhey had rational elements to qualify a weaker or a stronger sri..
[13:25] hope63 Shepherd: ari
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: and so, we are still faced with his self-interest
[13:25] herman Bergson: What I wanted to point out is that I had no idea how to apply self-interest in this situation
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: and it's aparrent success
[13:26] ChatNoir Talon: Right.. is too ambiguous a term
[13:26] Alarice Beaumont: welll...self interest is to live...no?!
[13:26] herman Bergson: Butt hat is a problem with a lot of Rand's writings....
[13:26] hope63 Shepherd: why not play that famous game: herman has a baloon and the earth will collapse: now he can take 3 more.. give the arguments why it should be you..
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:26] ChatNoir Talon: It sounds like self-preservation.. but its hardly the same thing
[13:26] herman Bergson: the easy use of concepts and the lack of conceptual analysis
[13:27] herman Bergson: The more I read the more nervous I became
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: i do not think ayn rand would have an answer to this problem that would make sense to us
[13:27] herman Bergson: What she writes is clever and it read easily
[13:27] Hokon Cazalet: to me it seems to have a contradiction, both should take the bottle for themselves (be selfish), yet both cant live (ethical egoism seems to return us back to the war of all against all)
[13:27] Samuel Okelly: maybe one soldier was christian who decided to forego his own biological self interest in order to save the many in the sure knowledge that our biological state is a gateway and not "an end"
[13:27] hope63 Shepherd: that's what make me nervous too.. too easy to apply for too many..
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: Ms Rand was much too unforgiving with opponents of her theories, but like all philosohers, she had jewels and she had garbage
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: yes very !
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes true Aristotle
[[13:28] ChatNoir Talon: "One man's garbage is another man's dinner"
[13:28] Anne Charles: Ms Rand's Objectivism might work in a world where everyone
has a three-digit IQ with no mental aberrations and the
manual work is done by robots, but that world doesn't exist,
does it? Only in a work of fiction are her ideas workable.
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: Christians are not more altruistic thank no Christians
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: her confidence in her mind was almost insane if you ask me
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: much as i liked her works
[13:29] ChatNoir Talon: Yes, I don't like her too much :-(
[13:29] Samuel Okelly: they are when compared to rand, ari ;-)
[13:29] hope63 Shepherd: she tried to link self-interest to responsibility.. but i didn't find out how that would work..
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: Oh, I like her, but she would not be my friend, I think
[13:29] Mickorod Renard: too right Sam
[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: well maybe after a few glasses of wine...
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: I would argue that Christians as well as any other tribal religion is just as self-concerned as anyone else
[13:30] ChatNoir Talon: She's like the anti-ChatNoir
[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:30] hope63 Shepherd: ARI.. THIS WOULD BRING JUST TO THE QUESTION OF WHAT IS THE MOTIVE..
[13:30] Samuel Okelly: tribal????
[13:31] hope63 Shepherd: sorry..no yelling..:)
[13:31] Mickorod Renard: I agree Ari,,but christians are not afraid of self sacrifice
[13:31] ChatNoir Talon: I agree, Ari. Atheist can be just as selfish as christians... I guess it depends on the situation and their compromise to their faith
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: We like to think we are altruistic, but in all things there is a reward for the self
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: very true
[13:31] Hokon Cazalet: their faith doesnt matter in this case, rand advocates that we ought to be selfish, not just want it
[13:31] hope63 Shepherd: camus: la chute...
[13:31] ChatNoir Talon: But the big difference is Motive. If you do it for the reward or for the other
[13:31] herman Bergson: This is a concern in philosophical discourse since Hobbes
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: I think she advocates that it is not wrong to be selfish
[13:32] Hokon Cazalet: she says its good to be selfish
[13:32] herman Bergson: The empiricist side has more difficulty finding answers than the rationalist side
[13:32] Samuel Okelly: the arrogance of atheism lends itself perfectly to the nonsense which is randism
[13:32] Mickorod Renard: sometimes selfish doesnt cause others harm..
[13:32] ChatNoir Talon: But it hardly does the others any good
[13:32] Mickorod Renard: note sometimes
[13:32] herman Bergson: I think we need to stop for a moment...
[13:33] ChatNoir Talon: Halt!
[13:33] Anne Charles: Ms Rand held that compassion for the feeble, the flawed, the
suffering and the guilty is a cover for hatred of the
strong, the able, the virtuous, the successful, the
confident and the happy. Can this woman really be
considered rational? Or even human?
[13:33] herman Bergson: For the word 'selfish' is so easily used
[13:33] herman Bergson: do we really know we all use the same meaning?
[13:33] Mickorod Renard: yes Herman
[13:33] ChatNoir Talon: Let's define it, please (and I agree Anne.. she can come off as 'inhuman' in some contexts)
[13:33] herman Bergson: I think we should return to Hope's first remark..
[13:34] Hokon Cazalet: when i say selfish i mean something different than how my sister uses it, so thats a good point
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: Of course the survival of the most fit is naturally rational
[13:34] hope63 Shepherd: lets face it.. selfish is -as ari would say-- an archaic .. or a a priori,hokon?
[13:34] herman Bergson: For understanding the human condition we need to look at other sciences too....
[13:34] herman Bergson: There are for instance examples of animals sacrificing themselves for the group
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: yes hope I think we are hard wire to survive
[13:35] ChatNoir Talon: Lemmings! ^^
[13:35] hope63 Shepherd: chat.. tis lemming story in the disney film
[13:35] herman Bergson: Even an ant species...
[13:35] hope63 Shepherd: was made up..
[13:35] Mickorod Renard: even vines will Herman
[13:35] herman Bergson: they seal their nest every night to survive...
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, yes, but thes are not rational beings
[13:36] ChatNoir Talon: Those spider mothers wo become their children first meal
[13:36] herman Bergson: so a small group stays outside and close the entrances of the nest
[13:36] hope63 Shepherd: ari.. that is a rational rationality linked to man:) but nothing is contradicting rationality in nature..
[13:37] herman Bergson: No Aristotle....but is rationality the primary property of human kind?
[13:37] ChatNoir Talon: As rational being, I propose, we can see that ourselves are no more important in any important way than any other one. Can we say that our culture is better than any other? Can we say our life is worth more than any other? I don't believe so
[13:37] herman Bergson: Right ChatNoir
[13:37] ChatNoir Talon: Thus I can't rationally save my life first more than anyone elses
[13:37] Mickorod Renard: ayn rand would have to be described as a rational individual,,not human
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: You raise a good question Herman
[13:38] hope63 Shepherd: what did you believe chat.. and what can we know?
[13:38] herman Bergson: Just one observation....
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: It is like the question of god, does he exists merely because you can not disprove his existance
[13:38] herman Bergson: we do a lot with our rationality...but how much of our conduct is controled by other drives?
[13:39] Samuel Okelly: pandering to reductionist views and adopting them as "a given" highlights the inadequacy of a simple dualistic A or B option and forces us to reconsider the common rejection of platonic form
[13:39] Mickorod Renard: or does he not exist just cos we cant?
[13:39] Hokon Cazalet: i think Hume said "reason is and ought to be a slave to the passions"
[13:39] Laila Schuman: Can we say that our culture is better than any other? Can we say our life is worth more than any other? I don't believe so........ can we? i say that people do it every day...all day long... in arrogance
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: she did not preach against benelovence, but argued that altruism did not exist
[13:40] ChatNoir Talon: Exactly, Laila.
[13:40] Mickorod Renard: compassion is also a human trait
[13:40] herman Bergson: After all these centuries of philosophy ..we made some progress, but we are still at the beginning
[13:40] hope63 Shepherd: herman.. people are starting to tell me what they believe.. how can we know and what..?
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, Herman, each question sought creates more
[13:41] ChatNoir Talon: That's philosophy for ya
[13:41] herman Bergson: Because of all I have lectured about now and all the questions we discussed I have come to a conclusion
[13:42] Hokon Cazalet: well, we ask for a reason to things, yet we then need a reason for those justifications, and so on
[13:42] herman Bergson: I concluded that the mind is a recursive system....
[13:42] herman Bergson: when you look at the index of the book of life and you look for mind you will read
[13:42] herman Bergson: Mind....See mind
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: lol
[13:42] Mickorod Renard: curse as in curse?
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Hokon...
[13:43] ChatNoir Talon: hehe
[13:43] herman Bergson: As I said earlier...we constantly are biting in our own tail
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: have we become the dog chasing its tail for so long that our spines are bent in a fixed circle?
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle.....that is my impression at the moment
[13:44] herman Bergson: and I try to understand it
[13:44] Mickorod Renard: philosophy has and is the mother
[13:45] ChatNoir Talon: So it's a) Ask ourselves why are we chasing the tail or B) Run around
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: if we could just look off to the side and break out of our revolving path
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: welll not much has changed since we started all this over a year ago
[13:45] herman Bergson: True Gemma...
[13:45] herman Bergson: Some has changed.....our ideas have become more diverse
[13:46] Alarice Beaumont: well,. i think more about those questions then I did before
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: that may be true
[13:46] Alarice Beaumont: so .. i still don't talk much more lol
[13:46] Mickorod Renard: and our understanding of diferent idea's
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: we have been exposed to many thoughts
[13:46] ChatNoir Talon: I think philosophy's not about getting the deep answers of life. But it makes us think better :-)
[13:46] Samuel Okelly: we are a driven ppl
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: but we come back to the questions over and over
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: I think change comes slowly, and it is those jewels for each individulas thought that makes the progress
[13:46] hope63 Shepherd: instead of simplifying our lifes by what we learn.. you complicated it herman..lol
[13:47] herman Bergson: that was my point today ChatNoir
[13:47] ChatNoir Talon: ^^ Nicely done, sir
[13:47] Mickorod Renard: well some of us think we have made progress
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Hope...hopelessly complicated it gets...hmmmmm
[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: one hopes, Mick
[13:47] Mickorod Renard: just not in the same direction as you Ari
[13:47] Alarice Beaumont: well..the more one knows.. the moe one questions..
[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: :)))
[13:48] Mickorod Renard: there are many paths
[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: but isnt my direction the right one?
[13:48] Mickorod Renard: grin
[13:48] herman Bergson: Seeing the many ideas and possibilities makes life definitely more colorful
[13:48] ChatNoir Talon: Lol
[13:48] Mickorod Renard: I agree Herman
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: we all bend and affect each others path as we share ourselves with each other
[13:49] herman Bergson: So I think we have only one option....
[13:49] Samuel Okelly: hearing the views of others helps us to challenge what we believe or cement our beliefs more solidly
[13:49] herman Bergson: We have to continue our quest
[13:49] Mickorod Renard: do another year?
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: indeed
[13:49] Mickorod Renard: yeaaa
[13:49] ChatNoir Talon: It's a neverending quest.. that's the fun of it :-)
[13:49] herman Bergson: there are still a number of women philosophers to come
[13:50] hope63 Shepherd: you who isn't spoiled yet with 1 year of class hokon.. what do you think..
[13:50] Mickorod Renard: Did we include Jesus as a philosopher?
[13:50] Hokon Cazalet: hehe
[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:50] ChatNoir Talon: So maybe the dog just chases its tail because its exerciting and it fun :P
[13:50] Hokon Cazalet: my cats go after their tails for fun
[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: well, he certainly was that, Mick
[13:51] AristotleVon Doobie: I think my dog is insane
[13:51] hope63 Shepherd: that's hard training for rl hokon..
[13:51] ChatNoir Talon: Why would Jesus work as a carpenter when he could make a fortune as a baker?
[13:51] Mickorod Renard: my dog is a selfish control freak
[13:51] hope63 Shepherd: or with a mcdonalds..
[13:51] Hokon Cazalet: yummy
[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: oh god
[13:51] Alarice Beaumont: ,-)
[13:51] ChatNoir Talon giggles
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well I think that when we begin to think of MacDonnalds it is time to end our discussion ^_^
[13:52] Mickorod Renard: banker not baker?
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: yep !
[13:52] Hokon Cazalet: time for food =)
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: thanks Herman
[13:52] ChatNoir Talon: No, baker
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: exactly
[13:52] ChatNoir Talon: Thank you Herman!
[13:52] hope63 Shepherd: lol..
[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your interest and participation today :-)