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In the discussion after one of my previous lectures Beertje asked, how can it be possible that one single person can have such influence.
In fact this is a fundamental question regarding our way of interpreting history. There are several options. Let's assume that history is the sequence of past events.
Then what should we call an event, that shaped the world? A common approach is to look at the influence of great personalities, kings, presidents, men of state, scientists, etc.
Another approach could be to look at the ever changing material conditions and situation. For instance the Industrial revolution, the invention of the nuclear bomb, the improving healthcare, etc,
Or we could focus on the dominating ideas in some period: the French revolution, cartesian dualism, colonial political thinking, imperialism, liberalism, etc.
Whatever approach you choose, you always get only a partial explanation of the historical events. Nevertheless, among other things, it is human action which shapes our world, in other world, we can hold someone responsible for how our world looks like.
And in that case we could ask the question: suppose that Ronald Reagan would have appointed a solid conservative successor of Paul Volcker as President of the Federal Reserve Bank in 1987
in stead of a dedicated disciple of Ayn Rand, that is Alan Greenspan? Would there not have been a credit crisis then?
A tricky idea of course, but a fact is that the relation between Rand and Greenspan lasted till her dead in 1982.
And another fact is that Greenspan was absolutely convinced that there was no better economic system than capitalism
and in pure Randian style believed that if everybody only would pursue his own happiness or rational self-interest, the world would be a better place.
Economic ideas were favorable then. In the rising market after 1982 the idea that the fundamental purpose of a publicly owned business is to make money for its shareholders became a basic tenet of capitalist faith: profit maximization.
Most of the information we have about the intimate relation between Greenspan and Rand comes from his autobiography "The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World" (2007).
There he is very clear about the fact that he has his view of society largely due to Ayn Rand. When he was 26 he already became member of her group.
He became an enthusiastic supporter of Objectivism, that pleaded, as he writes himself, for " a capitalism with as less as possible state intervention as the ideal form of social organization".
In March 2008, Greenspan wrote an article for the Financial Times' Economists' Forum about the 2008-financial crisis. And there he still sticks to his unbalanced and immovable Randian ideological suppositions about global capitalism and free competitive markets.
He concluded: "It is important, indeed crucial, that any reforms in, and adjustments to, the structure of markets and regulation not inhibit our most reliable and effective safeguards against cumulative economic failure: market flexibility and open competition."
In Congressional testimony on October 23, 2008, Greenspan finally conceded error on regulation. The New York Times wrote, "a humbled Mr. Greenspan admitted
that he had put too much faith in the self-correcting power of free markets and had failed to anticipate the self-destructive power of wanton mortgage lending. ...
Mr. Greenspan refused to accept blame for the crisis but acknowledged that his belief in deregulation had been shaken."
The Discussion
[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡
[13:26] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...
[13:26] Tessa Zalivstok: Can I start herman?
[13:26] herman Bergson: Sure Tessa ㋡
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: I think you know that I have had issues with some of your analysis here
[13:27] herman Bergson: that is ok...I am not all wisdom of the world...
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: but I think you're closer to the money so to speak when you mention Greenspan and the GFC in the same sentence
[13:28] herman Bergson: GFC?
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: Greenspan was unquestionably responsible for a large part of the GFC
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh that is reassuring cos I don't know that either
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: but I question whether Rand had anything to do with it
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: well to believe some global financial crisis
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: well rand inspired Greenspan's awful ideas
[13:29] herman Bergson: Oh Rand had certainly an influence in his decision making..also after her death...
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): TLA's everywhere
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: at least to a big degree it seems
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: the GFC is largely a matter off Greenspan failing to do his job which was to protect the currency
[13:29] Mick Nerido: GFC?
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes but it was based on his absolute belief of a free market end open competition
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Global Financial Crisis I believe
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: and the methods he employed to allegedly prevent the economy from reacting to the fall in the market after the tech boom were quite orthodox
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: global financial crisis
[13:30] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[13:30] herman Bergson: Philosophically ...
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: I don't see that this has anything to do with Rand except in the nroadest sense
[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ooh dissent!
[13:31] herman Bergson: main point here is that Greenspan held believes that were based on the ideas of Rand
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: that's fair comment in the broad sense
[13:31] herman Bergson: Greenspan was a co -author of Atlas Shrugged...
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: but I don't think Rand has anything to say about sound currency
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: which is the real issue here
[13:31] herman Bergson: Rand and he worked two years on the speech of John Galt....
[13:32] herman Bergson: 70 pages long...
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Greenspan was a co -author of Atlas Shrugged...??
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: oh I don't deny that they were associates
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: eeeeee ok?
[13:32] herman Bergson: Greenspan was the dedicated Randian...
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: she called him the Undertaker
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: lol
[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: was Greenspan on it as well
[13:32] herman Bergson: No....that was in the beginning Tessa.
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but let's stick to the point
[13:33] herman Bergson: When Rand discovered his intellectual powers she changed the nickname
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: what did Ayn Rand say about sound currency
[13:33] Kell Babenco is offline.
[13:33] herman Bergson: He became The Sleeping giant
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: which was Greenspan's real job
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: nothing I think?
[13:33] herman Bergson: and it was she who was waking up the giant
[13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) is online.
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: I dont think you can skip this point herman
[13:34] herman Bergson: Of course I dont know all details...
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: the Fed exists to protect the currency
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: Greensppan failed in this
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: the questionis was this because of something Rand said?
[13:34] herman Bergson: It was Greenspan that opposed measures against the mortgage bubble….
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: I don't think she had anything to say about this
[13:35] herman Bergson: He stated that the market would regulate itself...
[13:35] herman Bergson: that was his consistent policy
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no but her philosophy of economics influenced his to some extent
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but this begs the question of the integrity if the currency
[13:35] herman Bergson: to a large extend Gemma...
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:35] herman Bergson: Look at the picture...
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: no market can exist without a trusted medium of exchange
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: well to believe that something like that would self regulate is insane
[13:36] herman Bergson: Greenspan and Rand in the White House....
[13:36] Tessa Zalivstok: herman we all know this
[13:36] Mick Nerido: Mortages were to freely given, everyone thought that the prices of houses could only go up
[13:36] herman Bergson: what influence does that lady have on Greenspan?
[13:36] hannes Breda is online.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Why does he take her there and not his wife???
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): It wasn't that sort of party?
[13:36] Mick Nerido: The WFC is the correction
[13:37] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): sorry i have to go...
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: and I say that she had nothing to say
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: the question is what did Rand actually have to say about the issue that was a major cause of the GFC'
[13:37] herman Bergson: His view of society was due to Ayn Rand completely....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes and then the entire world stopped
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: POOFF
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but not his view of the currency
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: that was rather orthodox
[13:37] herman Bergson: No…Tessa Rand was dead already...1982....
[13:37] Mick Nerido: But it had to stop somewhere it was a bubble
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: now if you said that Friedman influenced his thinking I'd listen carefully
[13:38] herman Bergson: But the brain of Greenspan was filled with her ideas about how society had to be
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: if its a bubble you should always hit the brake
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and then its a dangerous situation
[13:38] Mick Nerido: hindsight is always better than foresight
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: now Friedman wrote extensively in these things
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: liberty
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: markets
[13:39] herman Bergson: Rand, Greenspan, Hayek, Friedman....all are at the roots of our present economic situation
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: he unquestionably influenced Greenspan in the matters that were important
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: you see you're running round the point
[13:39] herman Bergson: But let me put all in perspective....
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: the real point here is the currency
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: take Hayek
[13:40] herman Bergson: The thesis I am defending is that the Idea of a free market is a Utopia...
[13:40] Mick Nerido: how should he have protected the currency?
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: he held very similar ideas to Rand on many matters
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I find all this a bit difficult because I do not have the wider knowledge of it all
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: but he believed firmly that the currency should be protected
[13:40] herman Bergson: and that this Utopia was described by Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: Friedman had different ideas and I believe that it was Friedman who greenspan followed
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: not Rand
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: this is important
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and as we know an utopia can never happen its an impossible dream and so the free market cant work in a real world
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Tessa...those are details I would say....
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Tessa sounds as if she knows what she is talking about
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: but critical details
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yet we have it
[13:42] herman Bergson: They all believed in the wonders of the Free Market and the ratioanl huamn being who would handle it
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: you can't blame Rand for the crisis
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: smiles...
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: she had absolutely nothing to say about the things that caused it
[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I feel some need to understand why Tessa is defending Rand so much
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think it is her influence he is blaming
[13:42] herman Bergson: No....she had no economic or political power at all.
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but she had scary ideas that influenced Greenspan
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: if you want to look for somebody on that side of economic philosophy to blame my choice would be Friedman
[13:43] herman Bergson: But with Atlas Shrugged she influenced people who were in power!
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: she probalby didn't know about her influence
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: sure but not about that
[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and he was also influenced by her
[13:43] herman Bergson: people who were evening after evening debating these issues with her
[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): friedman that is
[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I still have my doubts as Herman says were also expressed by Beertje, that one person can influence so much
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: I guess Friedman might have read her
[13:43] herman Bergson: It makes little sense to talk about blaming someone...
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: he wasnt close to her like Greenspan was
[13:44] herman Bergson: It is a matter of what caused what...
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: well
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: if you want to choose people
[13:44] herman Bergson: History isn't about blaming people for whatever...
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: I would choose Bush, Greenspan, saddam hussein and Zhou Xiaochuan
[13:44] herman Bergson: It is about pointing out who is responsible for what
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: Rand was a theorist and Greenspan moved her ideas to reality
[13:45] Tessa Zalivstok: and I forgot Usama bin Laden
[13:45] herman Bergson: and when talking about responsibility...recall what I said...
[13:46] herman Bergson: on the one hand you have historical personalities...
[13:46] herman Bergson: but they are meaningless when material situations and a world of ideas do not fit together....
[13:46] herman Bergson: Like Assad in Syria....
[13:47] herman Bergson: it is not only that single man who causes what is happening there...
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: a bloody masacre
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: terrible
[13:47] Mick Nerido: The military Industrial complex is most to blame...
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): and over consumption
[13:48] Mick Nerido: The over production of arms...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes Mick..there are groups in that country that see their interests threatened and thus support Assad...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Our general mistake with history is that we are educated to believe that this or that leader did it all..
[13:49] herman Bergson: In Syria..there are tribes....
[13:49] herman Bergson: religious groups, which are opposing each other...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Like in Afganistan...
[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Ugh go away world
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Have to go thanks all
[13:50] herman Bergson: So Greenspan never could have done what he did if there hadn't been a group around him who agreed with him...
[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Mick
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye Mick
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ok bye then mick
[13:51] herman Bergson: Nor could the ideas of Rand in Atlas Shrugged have become a bestseller int the US if not the US 'mind' was open to that way of thinking
[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well exactly!
[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That is the point about the influence of a single person
[13:52] herman Bergson: Atlas Shrugged got bad reviews...and Greenspan wrote a defense
[13:53] herman Bergson: The free market idea in healthcare....
[13:53] herman Bergson: In my country all hospitals had to be privatized...
[13:54] herman Bergson: That would stimulate competition and increase of quality of care....
[13:54] herman Bergson: The result is disastrous...
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *looks to see who is still here
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: the results are rather
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: the rich should live the poor should die
[13:54] herman Bergson: PriPrizes gort up only....
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: really awful that something like this can have happened
[13:55] herman Bergson: Prizes got up only
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: see same things here too
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: really scary
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: it says it self that free market only give rise to own profit with no care of the service it self
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: its only money money in my own pocket
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: for the boss
[13:56] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): So will we discuss if there is a viable alternative at a future class?
[13:56] herman Bergson: Well so much on the utopia of the free market for today , I would say...
[13:56] herman Bergson: Oh Yes Annie...
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all for you vivid participation...
[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[13:57] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you Herman
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you for this lesson Herman
[13:57] Tessa Zalivstok: thanks herman
[13:57] herman Bergson: We are not done at all LIzzy....^_^
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: tnx Herman
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:58] herman Bergson: So more to come...
[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): thenks hermen, and all of you. I will be back for the next class..
[13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) is online.
[13:59] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody
[13:59] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Night Lizzy
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: cu all
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:59] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Goodnight all
[13:59] herman Bergson: by eBejiita
[13:59] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye
While "Atlas Shrugged" was and probably still is a bestseller among students of American MBA institutes where the captains of industry are prepared for their job, the book saw a Dutch translation only in 2007, and this just because it was 50 years ago, that it was published in the US and it was even self-published.It IS the utopia of Capitalism, an economic system of which many people think, that it is the result of an objective process which is not the result of ideas of others or invented.Nobody seems responsible for its intrinsic ideology and the obvious utopia, as described in "Atlas Shrugged". There would not exists something like "The Capitalist Manifest".The opposite is true. "Atlas Shrugged" is this manifest, depicting the ultimate capitalist utopia. In addition to the novel Ayn Rand wrote a non-fiction "footnote" as she called it herself: "Capitalism, the unknown Ideal" (1966).One of the contributors is that well known name: "Alan Greenspan is president of Town-send-Greenspan & Co., Inc., economic consultants."The book is fascinating. Let me quote Rand herself:This book is not a treatise on economics. It is a collection ofessays on the moral aspects of capitalism.Our approach can best be summarized by my statement in the first issue of The Objectivist Newsletter (January 1962): Objectivism is a philosophical movement; since politics is a branch of philosophy, Objectivism advocates certain political principles—specifically, those of laissez-faire capitalism—as the consequence and the ultimate practical application of its fundamental philosophical principles. It does not regard politics as a separate or primary goal, that is: as a goal that can be achieved without a wider ideological contextPolitics is based on three other philosophical disciplines: metaphysics, epistemology and ethics—on a theory of man'snature and of man's relationship to existence. It is only on such a base that one can formulate a consistent political theory and achieve it in practice… (…)No politico-economic system in history has ever proved its value so eloquently or has benefited mankind so greatly as capitalism—and none has ever been attacked so savagely, viciously, and blindly."She continues with stating that the truth about capitalism is secretly obliterated, not by a conspiracy of evildoers however,-quote-" it cannot be done except with the tacit compliance of those who know better. By their silence—by their evasion of the clash between capitalism and altruism—it is capitalism's alleged champions who are responsible for the fact that capitalism is being destroyed without a hearing, without a trial, without any public knowledge of its principles, its nature, its history, or its moral meaning. (…)The method of capitalism's destruction rests on never letting the world discover what it is that is being destroyed—on never allowing it to be identified within the hearing of the young."Now, when you take into account that Allen Greenspan, as a true disciple of Rand and her Objectivism, has systematically ignored all warnings regarding the oncoming financial crisis, the next words of Rand almost sound prophetic….."The guilt for the present state of the world rests on the shoulders of those who are over forty years old today (with a very few exceptions)—those who, when they spoke, said less than they knew and said it less clearly than the subject demanded. This book is addressed to the young—in years or in spirit— who are not afraid to know and are not ready to give up."Of course Rand was thinking of other shoulders than those of Allen Greenspan and the Chicago-economists like Friedrich von Hayek and Milton Friedman.But it is their Utopia of the Free Market and its shortcomings, that we now put under the magnifying glass and there we see that Rand's theory of man as being the rational, creative and productive individual, already is a utopia.The Discussion[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡[13:20] : Kime Babenco raises hand[13:21] Kime Babenco: Applause[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman![13:21] herman Bergson: The floor is yours.... ^_^[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting[13:21] herman Bergson: floor[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: I like Rand's idea of blaming the older generation, as a general principle[13:22] herman Bergson: laughs...[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate GIGGLES!![13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: ...LOL...[13:22] herman Bergson: good idea Merlin[13:22] herman Bergson: it was that generation that fed you and educated you[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: Well, I'm one too, but we all have predecessors[13:22] Mick Nerido: Do you think man is not rational, creative and productive?[13:23] herman Bergson: assuming you are the younger generation[13:23] Merlin Saxondale: Im not![13:23] herman Bergson: Ahh Mick....good remark!!!![13:24] Mistyowl Warrhol: Never trust anyone over thirty..where have I heard that before LOL[13:24] Merlin Saxondale: only the over 30's would remember that Misty[13:24] herman Bergson: The point is that traditionally philosophy assumed that the essence of being human was being rational...have a ratio...think of Descartes[13:24] Kime Babenco: People are not better than you can expect from people... Altruisme... Great... You find that among soldiers or miners,,, not in business at stock exchanges or at politics[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: as old as molecules[13:24] herman Bergson: However...consciousness as we possess is way more that just being rational[13:25] herman Bergson: No Kime…Rand even sees altruism as the ultimate destructive tool of capitalism and society[13:26] Kime Babenco: When people have a lot of power... they like it... We have religious powers, political ones, and financial ones[13:26] Beertje Beaumont gave you Snapshot : Bergson's, Wainscot (213, 213, 38).[13:27] Mick Nerido: capitalism assumes everyone is selfish and make it a virtue...[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Mick...and that is a fundamental mistake...[13:28] Kime Babenco: Is it the kind of society you would like ?[13:28] Mick Nerido: Are we not all responsible for our selves?[13:28] herman Bergson: even from an evolutionary point of view it can be shown that evolution has not led to ultimate selfishness as the way to survive[13:28] Mistyowl Warrhol: Kime makes some very good points.[13:28] oola Neruda: no man is an island...to quote another famous source[13:28] herman Bergson: exactly oola![13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: she would never accept that[13:29] Mick Nerido: Does Rand disagree with wealth philanthropy?[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah![13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: oh[13:30] herman Bergson: the quintessential core question of this project is actuallly.....what is the relation between government and the free individual, I think[13:30] herman Bergson: Like Bill Gates does Mick?[13:30] oola Neruda: a bit like state's rights... i think...[13:30] oola Neruda: which the civil war was fought over[13:31] Mick Nerido: Yes like Gates, she thinks this is bad?[13:31] herman Bergson: I guess she would disapprove of it yes[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: primitive peoples have a lot of sympathy with on eanother, so what rand says leads to an inappropriate and unnatural way of life[13:31] Mick Nerido: She is cold..[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Lizzy....[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: she was very cold personally[13:32] Kime Babenco: Well, I can give an example... In Brasil Lula (ex president) started the zero fame plan (no one with hunger)... And education encouraged... At the other side in USA, the so called rich country of the planet, about 4 million people have lost their house because of stupid bankers[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: and why the silent majority stay silent, while the radicals use every means to shout their greedy ways.[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: take a look at her[13:32] herman Bergson: She really misses the point obsessed by her anti collectivism as she is[13:32] Mick Nerido: Communism was an attempt to spread the wealth evenly it failed...[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Mick..communism is as unnatural as Rands Utopia , I would say[13:33] Mick Nerido: I agree[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: In her time, there was no fast communication, so did she ever think that there would be those who would share their wealth and power. That was something that wasn't in the news then.[13:33] Kime Babenco: Communism was a good idea maybe , but in ended up with an elite class of captalism[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Kime....[13:34] herman Bergson: after 1989 all of a sudden there were russian mijardairs...[13:34] herman Bergson: millionairs[13:34] herman Bergson: I was flabbergasted....[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: billionaires now[13:35] herman Bergson: How could that be possible[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: the top of the billionair list[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: came out yesterday[13:35] herman Bergson: amazing[13:36] herman Bergson: so...[13:36] herman Bergson: the essential question here is...[13:37] herman Bergson: what is the balance between government control and the individual freedom[13:37] herman Bergson: The Free Market Utopia had its answer as formulated by Rand...[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: difficult question[13:37] Mick Nerido: tough question[13:37] herman Bergson: yes it is....[13:37] herman Bergson: For instance....[13:38] Kime Babenco: Does one go into politics because of ideal ? Or because of personal benifits ?[13:38] herman Bergson: All states in Europe are spending more money than they earn by taxes....all of them...[13:38] herman Bergson: which household woulddo that for years?[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: here in the usa too[13:38] herman Bergson: oh yes...[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: but of course two wars cost a lot[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: tsk[13:39] herman Bergson: The problem is ....when you spend 10.000 dollars you dont have...[13:39] herman Bergson: you go to a bank and take a loan on those 10.000[13:39] herman Bergson: then you only have to pay...say...1000 a year for it....[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: After WWII, it was considered one's civil duty to pay taxes.[13:39] herman Bergson: for 14 years...[13:39] Mick Nerido: Governments can just print more money[13:40] herman Bergson: those 1000 you can afford and for the public you can play Santa[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: the central banks Mick[13:41] herman Bergson: Well..I'll go on withthis project[13:41] Kime Babenco: But let's assume you asked 100 000 for the bank to buy a house... and have to pay it as 110 000 in 10 years , but suddenly the houses fall in prices, and the bank is out of money... They want your money still...[13:41] herman Bergson: and maybe dismantle neoliberalism... ㋡[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes KIme....[13:42] herman Bergson: those are the finacial bubbles[13:43] herman Bergson: There is a flaw in your remakr Kime....[13:43] herman Bergson: The 10 year contract stands...and the people can pay it ...[13:43] herman Bergson: whatever the situation of th ebank is[13:43] Kime Babenco: If failing banks have to be saved by the government when they fail... (so the tax payers), then why don't we see any money from it when they gain a lot ? So I guess banking is better be done by the offical governments maybe... Or at least a very strict control on it ...[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...without loosing us in all kinds of details....[13:44] herman Bergson: I'd love to see you agian next Tuesday... ㋡[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:44] herman Bergson: Tahnk you all for your participation...[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡[13:44] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman great subject[13:44] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman:)[13:44] Kime Babenco: Thank YOU ALL ![13:45] oola Neruda: take care all[13:45] oola Neruda: baiee[13:45] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting lecture and ty :-)[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: you too[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: bye oola[13:45] oola Neruda is Offline[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:45] Mistyowl Warrhol: Bye Gemma, tc :-)[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: bye everybody[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: yes, bye everyone from me too[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: Bye all :-)[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: we again have a lot to think about:)[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: Yes, we do.
We have come a long way and passed many stations. And here we are: apparently at Fukuyama Station. The train has stopped and our only passenger, Miss Egalitarian Liberalism, gets off the train.She hesitates. There are two exits to the moral foundation of Political philosophy. One leads to a Kantian ethics of Duty, while the other leads to the utilitarian approach of ethics.It feels so obvious that we have stopped at this station and that Miss EL is our only companion, but is it so obvious? After all utopias we have visited, is miss EL and what she carries in her bag, the free market, not a utopia too?In fact the financial crisis we are in now, has proven that the financial world believed in a utopia of unlimited free markets and capitalism.And the most well read utopia novel next to the bible, that teaches us this utopia, is "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) by Ayn Rand. This was revealed by a research of Time magazine among its readers.And that this utopia was put to practice is due to one of the closest disciples of Ayn Rand, Alan Greenspan, till 2006 the president of the American Federal Reserve Bank. The financial politics of this bank affect everyone in this world. This has made the financial crisis pretty clear.Greenspan was rather upset by the crisis, when he said to the committee of the American congress "Most of us, and me in particular, are shocked and still can not believe it"And as he continued, there has to be"an error in the conviction that the free market can regulate itself much better than any governmental supervision could do"When Greenspan described the rise of free market capitalism in the 60s of the past century, he referred to two persons in one breath: Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman.He was a loyal disciple of Rand and the utopia of "Atlas Shrugged" and he was in the position to put it into practice worldwide. heads of state like Thatcher and Reagan followed him by the book:privatization of government services (post, energy, transportation, health care etc.), progressive deregulation of the economy and minimizing influences of the trade unions.This opened the gates to that for which Aristotle already warned us: GREED. The highest goal in his opinion is not the accumulation of as many wealth as possible, but to live a virtuous and good life.Aristotle was the first one to discover the concept of economy (oikonomia): the management of the household. For that you need goods, of course.But the acquisition of goods by purchase or exchange is something different, called chremastike (the earning of money). As he says in his Ethica:"The way of life of chremastike is only forced to choose; wealth is obviously not the good we are looking for. It is a commodity, a means to an end"The elementary economics was based on exchanging good, a pair of shoes for a bag of corn. With the invention of money the acquiring of the corn could be postponed till later.As Aristotle says in his Politica: "Due to chremastike people believe that that there is no limit to wealth." He already understood human nature, developed from real hunter to hunter for moor e..and more..and more only.The next step was the behavior Aristotle really condemned: making money with money. There is no intermediate good anymore, just money to acquire money.We live in a world, which was predicted by a philosopher more than 2000 years ago. If we loose sight of the true meaning of life and only believe in greed, it will lead to disaster.Therefore I suggest that we ask Miss EL to get on the train again. This cannot be the end station.The Discussion[13:23] herman Bergson: This concludes the series on the Ideal State ^_^[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: and we still dont have one lol[13:23] Qwark Allen: indeedº[13:23] Designing Worlds Messages: Changes at Linden Lab! Join us for an iimportant TV discussion today at 2pm - see the notecard for details and landmark.[13:23] Qwark Allen: seems utopian[13:23] herman Bergson: No Gemma, but we are working on it.....[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: even Greenspan now admits he made grave errors[13:23] Kiki Walpanheim: APPLAUSE for the last lecture this semester[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: errors of judgement[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you Kiki[13:24] herman Bergson: I think we deserve a vacation[13:24] Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´][13:24] Kiki Walpanheim: will miss you all[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: we sure will[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: come to our parties lolo[13:24] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd[13:24] herman Bergson: I will be back in September....[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: in the US, the winner of the Hamiltonian/Jeffersonian struggle by Lincoln doomed us to the policies of Mr Greenspan doomed[13:24] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:24] Kiki Walpanheim: nods[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: ah[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********[13:25] Kiki Walpanheim: ty[13:25] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd[13:25] herman Bergson: I am thinking of a project called The Mysteries of the Brain...[13:25] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:25] >>: Qwark Allen starts swaying to the music.[13:25] Sartre Placebo: thx herman :)[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: hmmmm[13:25] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:25] Qwark Allen: thank you[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: i followed some of the blogs... so interesting subjects![13:25] herman Bergson: To dig into the great influence neurobiological reseach has on fundamental philosophical issues[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: it was yes[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: i don't think there ever can be a perfect state lol[13:26] Qwark Allen: yes[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: that would be interesting Herman[13:26] Qwark Allen: seems a utopia[13:26] herman Bergson: No Bruce[13:26] Bruce Mowbray: Did I say something?[13:26] herman Bergson: But the idea of Rawls was that Political philosophy can get close to the ideal theory....[13:26] Kiki Walpanheim: I read of something interesting yesterday --let the inmates run the asylum[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: agreeing we dont know yet[13:26] herman Bergson: and using that theory in our non-ideal situation would lead to improvement[13:27] Kiki Walpanheim: which means, if ppl constantly keep infringe some law, then better make that legal and take advantage of ppl's traits in doing that to make things good for all[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: hi bejiita[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hi[13:27] Bejiita Imako: puh finally[13:27] Kiki Walpanheim: hi bijiita[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: lol[13:27] Bejiita Imako: midsummer party[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Kiki..for instance abolish all drugs laws[13:28] Bruce Mowbray: Like illegal downloads of movies, Kiki?[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: and then regulate it all[13:28] Abraxas Nagy: hiya Bejiita :D[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hio[13:28] Kiki Walpanheim: or intellectual property protection in virtual world for example[13:28] Bruce Mowbray: yes, my point.[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: that is a liberatarian stance Herman, we all have the right to do with ourselves as we choose[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: instead of sending an army of lawers to sue everybody[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: drugs, suicide etc[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: you can work with the creators[13:29] Kiki Walpanheim: let them use your brand, trademark, and work with them[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: I have yet to figure out what business that is of others[13:30] herman Bergson: Well my friends.... I smell vacation coming up....[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: w0oh0o![13:30] Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)[13:30] Qwark Allen: ehehh[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: are you going to the island again??????[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗[13:30] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm nice[13:31] Qwark Allen: have great time heerman[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i have soom too[13:31] herman Bergson: so may I thank you for all your participation and enthousiasm..[13:31] Bejiita Imako: in July[13:31] Qwark Allen: bejita m8[13:31] Bejiita Imako: will be nice[13:31] Classroom control: g[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: for the classes[13:31] Abraxas Nagy: we thank YOU for your inspiring lectures herman[13:31] Classroom control: g[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you very much Professor Bergson[13:31] Qwark Allen: yes[13:31] Classroom control: f[13:31] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:31] Qwark Allen: thank you very much[13:31] Kiki Walpanheim: Thank you[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: lol love that[13:31] Bejiita Imako: :)[13:31] Sartre Placebo: thanks very much herman[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: thanks for class Herman and that you still had a seat available :-)[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: much applause[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: o no particles[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: I hate that[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗[13:32] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝[13:32] Kiki Walpanheim: I hope in september my life does not get too overwhelmed so that I can still go back ;-)[13:32] herman Bergson: I'll be back in September....[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: remember sunday parties at light tower for 80's hits[13:32] Kiki Walpanheim: See you all in September hopefully[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: perhaps b4 then[13:32] herman Bergson: Would be nice to see you again Kiki[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: yes[13:33] Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)[13:33] herman Bergson: Sunday parties seem to be good for me Gemma ㋡[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: corner party today[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: at 2[13:33] Qwark Allen: yes[13:33] Bejiita Imako: aa ok[13:33] Qwark Allen: indeed[13:33] Qwark Allen: the 80ies[13:33] Qwark Allen: ,-)[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: not toda lol[13:33] Bejiita Imako: aa sound nice[13:34] herman Bergson: Thank you all[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: for nowappreciated![13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: see you soon![13:34] Abraxas Nagy: have a great holiday herman and I hope to see you after :D[13:34] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu :)[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Gemma. Qwark[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:34] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes have a good holiday :)[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:34] herman Bergson: Have a nice vacation yourselves![13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:34] Bejiita Imako ♪♥♪APPLAUDS!!!♪♥♪[13:34] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: /zpp[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman![13:34] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: [/app[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: of course you will be in sl a while anway[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********[13:35] >>: Qwark Allen joins the applause.[[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: :;;:+*'`'*+*'`'*+:;._((( HONK!! ))) _..;:+*'`'*+*'`'*+:;_[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: not away the whole time[13:35] Qwark Allen: hopefully not[13:35] Qwark Allen: -,-[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: bye[13:35] herman Bergson: I stay in Sl.....[13:35] herman Bergson: plenty to do here..[13:35] Qwark Allen: yes[13:35] Qwark Allen: great[13:35] Alarice Beaumont: that is good :-)[13:36] herman Bergson: Only no lectures...[13:36] Qwark Allen: maybe now we can have some time for a chess[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes[13:36] herman Bergson: It is a rythm...every tuesday and thursday...[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes[13:36] herman Bergson: Nice to have a break....[13:36] Qwark Allen: indeed[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:36] Qwark Allen: i`ll have it in august[13:36] Qwark Allen: ;-)[13:36] herman Bergson: it is much to warm in RL for a thing like that now[13:37] Qwark Allen: eheheheh[13:37] Qwark Allen: here it`s fine[13:37] Qwark Allen: :-)[13:37] Qwark Allen: got to go[13:37] Qwark Allen: see you soon[13:37] herman Bergson: 24 degrees here C[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:37] Qwark Allen: 21[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ok cu all soon :)[13:37] Qwark Allen: but now maybe 15[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Bejiita[13:37] herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita[13:38] Alarice Beaumont: ok... have a great vacation then Herman[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: yesm Herman..have fun :)[13:39] herman Bergson: you too ...thnx[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i wish you, a beautiful summer! much sun and much warm thanks herman! i look forward to septembers![13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: for philclass[13:41] herman Bergson: thnx Bergie[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: must go off :-/[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all:-)[13:42] Alarice Beaumont: nite nite Bergfrau![13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: b-bye bergfrau[13:42] Alarice Beaumont: hoffe ich sehe dich bald mal wieder!![13:43] herman Bergson: make yourselves comfortable....[13:43] herman Bergson: I got to go...Bye all[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: tanks Herman...bye for now[13:44] Alarice Beaumont: bye bye Herman :-))[13:44] Alarice Beaumont: hope to see you again :-)
