The economic thought of Aristotle wasn't that bad at all. Focus on a self-sufficient economy, relate gathering wealth to ethics.
It makes you wonder. Why did his ideas not prevail throughout history? Unfortunately, like so many ideas we have, they might have some shortcomings.
Aristotle's economic framework was rooted in the context of a static, household-based, "oikos", slave economy. His core distinction was between
"Oikonomia", Household Management, the "natural" art of acquiring goods for the well-being of the household and city-state. This was morally good.
And "Chrematistike", Wealth Getting". The "unnatural" art of acquiring money for its own sake, especially through trade and usury, lending at interest. This was morally suspect.
And here Aristotle made his mistake, I guess. It is Bejiita's beloved theme: greed. What we have to understand is this drive to greed.
Why is homo sapiens a greedy individual? Why is more better than being content with a self-sufficient economy? For me, there are two reasons: security and power.
Power means the ability to control others. This means that homo sapiens, as a social animal, loves to be at the top of the hierarchy of the tribe.
Consequently, the Commercial Revolution, 11th-13th centuries, and later the rise of modern capitalism ,16th-18th centuries, were built on the very activities Aristotle condemned:
profit-seeking, long-distance trade, financial instruments, and credit. His philosophy, which morally rejected the engine of his economic system, could not possibly serve as its operating manual.
We'll get into this in more detail in the coming lectures, but let me give you some reasons. Aristotle's economic ideas were not a formal "economic theory"
but rather philosophical and ethical observations scattered throughout his works, primarily "Politika" and "Nicomachean Ethics".
They were: "Qualitative, not Quantitative". He was concerned with the *moral purpose* of economic activity, not with modeling prices, output, or growth.
And secondly, "Descriptive, not Predictive:". His ideas described how he believed a polis - household- "SHOULD" function, not how a complex, decentralized economy actually does function.
The core of the matter is, how and to what purpose do you determine the value of a created product? On the one hand, you could say,
it is determined by the time needed to create the product in such a way that the creator can live a decent life and can continue producing the product.
But on the other hand, if there is a high demand of your product, we run into the distinction between value in use and value in exchange.
And there it is: greed. What is the "just price" of a product? The time you spend on it, producing it, or the demand for it, which gives you all the freedom to set the price?
We all know the answer. Aristotle's economic thought did not prevail because it was a moral framework for a pre-commercial world.
It was ill-suited to explain, justify, or guide the dynamic, profit-driven, and complex system of market capitalism that came to dominate the modern world.
That is the main reason we ended up with capitalism as our financial and economic system. More is better than being self-sufficient.
Thank you for your attention... the floor is yours..
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
of Economic Thought (2012)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:17] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): BTW Bergie is sending her greetings to you all
[13:17] herman Bergson: What wasn't his job, Neuro?
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well I agree with Neuro but at least it was something that later philosophers go back to as a frame
[13:17] Max Chatnoir: So is there an ethical way of determiniing a fair price or a fair wage for workers? Something other than whatever you can get away with?
[13:17] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): what do you mean by pre-commercial world?
[13:17] Neuro Wonder: To make an economy fitting to the ethics he proposed]
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think one of the main issues today is the CEOS and shareholders demand for the impossible - infinite growth every year no matter if the company already goes well
[13:19] herman Bergson: Ok...on emoment...
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i read about samsung fridges that even u paid a premium - 3000 dollars for it it totally bombard you with ads on its display to try cram even more money out of you
[13:19] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): because we are in a situation of "market only" with little government power
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it will get worse and worse as the demand for more and more growth and profits increase
[13:19] herman Bergson: a pre-commercial world.... an agriculturally based economimy based on self-sufficiency
[13:19] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): the market rules the governments through its lobbies
[13:20] herman Bergson: That is now the case indeed John
[13:20] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): the agriculture based economy needed trade or commerce. It was deep in it.
[13:20] herman Bergson: But to get back to Max's remark...an ethical way to set a price of a product....
[13:20] herman Bergson: that is a real issue here
[13:21] herman Bergson: For instance....
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Here in sweden appearently on publi toilets we now have bathroom mirrors that are completley unusable because they have a built in screen that constantly show ads so u can not see yourself
[13:21] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Marx?
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even you have to pay to use the toilet
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats our situation now
[13:21] herman Bergson: That guy that bought a patent on a medicine, changed it a little and then made it ten times more expensive....
[13:22] Neuro Wonder: Is there a cap on how much income a particular human could be worth so as not to impede other humans' productivity for the benefit of civilization if they (or even 1 in every 1,000 people) had the opportunity for their brainpower to be put to use?
[13:22] herman Bergson: The fact that a CEO earns 300% more than the lowest paid employee in his company
[13:23] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): it's interesting to see the case of slavery in the US and its influence on the labour market
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:23] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): apparently a large part of the American society was opposed to slavery not because it was immoral, but because it constitued unfair competition
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that would take a month of classes Jphn
[13:24] Neuro Wonder: slavery in its overt form was simply transformed into a covert form
[13:24] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): when workers have no choice, the cost of labour gets very low
[13:24] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): that is the case of slavery
[13:25] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): they are paid in food and accommodation, so to speak
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: That's where the ethics should be part of the artument.
[13:25] herman Bergson: Slavery is a whole new chapter....
[13:25] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): a condition not so far away from Victiorian era workers
[13:25] Neuro Wonder: aristotle argues that the money derived from work should be proportional to the fruits of the labor
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the economics for the decades following the end of slavery was affected
[13:26] herman Bergson: No, indeed, when there is a surplus of labour power, you can exploits it
[13:26] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I suppose Aristotles had slaves
[13:26] Neuro Wonder: did he?
[13:26] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): no idea, but ancient greeks did
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: Good question!
[13:26] herman Bergson: I don't know his personal situation but slavery was a common thing in his time
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I am sure he did
[13:27] herman Bergson: He saw the slave as an instrument
[13:27] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): prisoners of war were often reduced in slavery
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:27] Neuro Wonder: democrats oppose CPACs (anonymous donations) and yet have them because to beat the system one has to participate in it
[13:28] herman Bergson: I still can't understand how a person can become a slave, but it was a common phenomenon in thoise days
[13:28] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Democrats in the World?
[13:28] Neuro Wonder: US democrats
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): capture
[13:28] Plant Bergie: I have a new baby seed!
[13:28] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): not very democratic your US democrats
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): results of wars mostly
[13:29] Neuro Wonder: where would we be without hypocrisy. but they fight all the time to make it so it is illegal, even for themselves
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes, but did such people lose their selfrespect?
[13:29] Neuro Wonder: we make laws all the to protect ourselves from ourselves
[13:29] Neuro Wonder: we don't do it enough
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: And they should be universal.
[13:30] Neuro Wonder: for example, we will eat ourselves to death
[13:30] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): slaves had no choice, The alternative was death
[13:30] The region you are in now is about to restart. If you stay in this region you will be logged out.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): DANG!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): aah
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh lol
[13:30] herman Bergson: oh my!!!
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Sim restart typical!
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
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