We have all the ingredients for economics now, movable private property, in other words, objects, immovable property like houses and lands and this peculiar thing called money.
In the beginning "money" was cattle, grain, shells, beads and then this was replaced by precious metals like silver and gold.
The first true coins, made of electrum, a naturally occurring alloy of gold and silver, appeared in the kingdom of Lydia,
modern-day Turkey, around the 7th century BCE. These coins bore official stamps guaranteeing weight and purity.
Just imagine the situation: there you stand with three small round pieces of metal in your hand and you know that they equal one sheep.
Not a single organism on this globe can think of that except homo sapiens. To accept such a belief system and use it is really amazing.
Philosophers and economists have long debated where money derives its value from. There are two main ideas.
One party says money derives its value from the intrinsic worth of the material it is made of, being silver or gold.
This is a questionable and outdated view for many reasons, for what about those worthless pieces of paper we call banknotes?
The other party claims, that money is valuable only because people trust and accept it.
For centuries, currencies were tied to precious metals. The gold standard (19th–20th century) pegged national currencies to fixed amounts of gold, creating global stability but also rigidity.
In the 20th century, especially after the collapse of the Bretton Woods system in 1971, most currencies became fiat money,
valuable not because of intrinsic worth, but because governments declare them legal tender. This represents the triumph of the view that money is sustained by trust in institutions, not physical backing.
Yet it gives me an uncomfortable feeling. Just think of it, what does this really mean? I have a little piece of paper.
It represents a value (I can exchange it for goods e.g.). This value was determined by a piece of gold in some vault of the Central Bank of my country and even that has been dropped.
What difference does it make? That piece of gold is just a metal... ok... a rare and special metal, but why do we attribute value to such a material? My advice...don't think about it :-)
To make it even worse, credit cards, electronic transfers, and online banking further abstracted money from its physical form.
Most money today exists not as coins or notes, but as electronic entries in databases.
Or even worse, cryptocurrencies. The rise of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies in the 21st century has reopened debates about the nature of money.
The digital age intensifies questions about money’s identity: if money exists only as numbers on a screen, is it simply a shared fiction?
My idea.... don't think about what money is. Just look at the numbers on your bank account and if the numbers are four or five digits before the comma, you know you are doing fine.
Maybe the hsitory of economic thought may teach us to understand how this abstract social construct functions so well all over the world.
Thank you for your attention... the floor is yours..
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
of Economic Thought (2012)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well indeed money today is more of a concept, like numbers in a database, the main idea i guess is u have a limited amount of it and this goves it value
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gives
[13:26] herman Bergson: But to be honest...I found your primary remark really funny, John
[13:26] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): hmm, always been like that, what do you think?
[13:26] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I used to teach Economics, Herman
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:26] herman Bergson: Well, actually I thought..OK...this saves me to lecture today :-)
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol:)
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes, I suspected something like that, John :-)
[13:27] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): yours is about money in human thought, I suppose
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: I guess beads or coins or numbers in the bank are easier to carry around than sheep.
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: But it does require some mutual trust
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is one of the reasons indeed Max
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Hence it's fragility.
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the concept of tit for tat or what you now say
[13:29] herman Bergson: I am not an economist, my son is, Iam just trying to understand economic thought from a philosophical perspective...that is the goal of this project
[13:30] herman Bergson: The human mind produced the financial world we now live in...
[13:30] herman Bergson: and it shows a high level of abstraction
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: I'm afraid that trust in the US is eroding.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, no other lifeform has this concept
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true max
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): destroyed by evil, stupidity and greed
[13:31] herman Bergson: if all trust disappears histpry has shown what it leads to,,, hyperinflation
[13:31] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): 3 more years, max
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: That is a terrifyingly long time!
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: All things considered
[13:32] herman Bergson: That's what I think too Max....
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it might be the end of USA I say
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if this continues
[13:32] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): we are all in the same boat in the Western world
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just by 1 stupid man
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well. a number of people already predict the fall of the US Empire...
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even worse it might be a threat to the entire world
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: Not just him. Everyone who fails to correct him.
[13:33] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): nobody remembers Bush Jr. and his spend spend spend back in 2008 I suppose
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its unstable as it is and authoritarian forces spread rapidly now
[13:33] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): and the subsequent bail outs
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trump being a catalyst
[13:34] herman Bergson: No Beertje....not just one man.....he is a tool of a whole group of people, that use him for their own iterests
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): among other things
[13:34] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): human memory is a strange machine
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm true
[13:34] herman Bergson: Indeed John
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as u said before, Trump is the sumptom
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): symptom
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): of a huge underlying problem
[13:35] herman Bergson: Like HItler...he actually worked for Krupp steal etc.
[13:36] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Hitler got in power in a world controlled by 3 or 4 big empires
[13:36] herman Bergson: Dutch Forrer airplane factory built the first planes for the Luftwaffe to train pilots, which was forbidden actually
[13:36] herman Bergson: Fokker
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: Training pilots was forbidden?
[13:37] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): a big bunch of fokkers they were
[13:37] herman Bergson: It is all so intertwined....we hardly know the real facts and forces at work here
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:37] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): gemany had lost the war, they were forbidden a lot of things
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:38] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): so, money.......
[13:38] herman Bergson: Indeed John, tanks airplanes and so on....
[13:39] herman Bergson: So much is happening in this world which is beyond the power and knowledge of us, simple voters
[13:39] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): money and thinking
[13:39] herman Bergson: As it says FOLLOW THE MONEY
[13:40] herman Bergson: and there you get the answers
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as i heard in a song i use to dance to with my breakdance crew "its a game for the elite, not the ignorant masses"
[13:40] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): most money is produced by debt
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlz5nBkxFXQ
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this song
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: I'd emigrate, but if all this can happen in the US, no place is safe.
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fun fact, i have DJd with this dude once - Promoe
[13:42] herman Bergson: That idea, Max, seems to based on the philosophy of American exceptionalism ㋡
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: You mean collecting interest, John?
[13:42] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Money makes the world go around
The world go around, the world
Money makes the world go around
The clinking, clanking sound of
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm as said, Trump is a threat not only to US but to the entire world
[13:43] herman Bergson: That is to be seen Bejiita....
[13:43] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): not just interests, when you lend money you multiply it
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): riddling up evil dudes like Putin, Nethan ect, make those angry enough and bye bye world
[13:43] herman Bergson: If you look at the current actions of Canada and Mexico and Europe, the US gets more and more isolated
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): KABOOOM
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully that wont happen but scary thought,
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its like matches + gunpowder
[13:44] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I suspect states and nations are less and less important economically
[13:44] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): the very power of the US government is pure illusion
[13:45] herman Bergson: What is important then John...Central BAnks?
[13:45] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): they are extremely weak and dependent on corporations
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes that is th eother idea...that the world is governed by big corporations
[13:45] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): that's why Nethanhyahu seems to control the US, it's the economic power of Big banks and corporations behind him that counts
[13:46] herman Bergson: What I said...there is much more going on behind the scenes than we know
[13:46] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): these corporations, often, benefit from a permanent state of war
[13:46] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): they need it
[13:47] herman Bergson: oh yes, that is big bussines...Ukraine is a huge test area for all the weaponery
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: military industrial complex
[13:47] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): and siria before, and Afghanistan, and Iraq, end Vietnam etc. etc. etc.
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): says it all, human lives are worth nothing in comparison to money
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just... :(
[13:48] herman Bergson: Russian tanlks have shown to be pretty worthless, HIMARS are prima donnas of the battlefield and so on
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why?
[13:49] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): They found out they needed war when they got out of the depression years, thanks to wwII
[13:49] herman Bergson: The russian tanls have hardly any proper defense against drones
[13:49] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): in fact, they had Corea right after that
[13:49] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): and they never stopped
[13:49] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): the system is war addicted
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: a war for every generation
[13:49] herman Bergson: Vietnam next
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so
[13:49] herman Bergson: then Iraq
[13:49] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): All TAnks are worthless
[13:50] herman Bergson: now Ukraine....
[13:50] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): very advanced armies don't invest in tanks anymore
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money is gonna wipe us out in the end right off the face of earth before we get anywhere near colonizing space
[13:50] herman Bergson: Today they are indeed
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the power of greed
[13:50] herman Bergson: I agree, investing in those things is a waste of money
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sad reality
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: All right, philosopher. How do we fix it?
[13:51] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Karl Marx said that Capitalism contains in itself the seeds of its selfdestruction
[13:51] herman Bergson: Good question Max.....
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, there are much better stuff we can make, then machines for blowing each other up
[13:51] herman Bergson: There is a tiny option...and it already is working..... huge protests of the masses....
[13:51] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): but they last too long and saturate the markets
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a good thing to see for sure Herman
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and as u once said, most people are actually ok
[13:52] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): the masses are stupid
[13:52] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): who voted for Trump? The masses
[13:52] herman Bergson: I take the liberty to disagree with you, John
[13:53] herman Bergson: PArt of the masses did....and those who did are learning
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the hard way
[13:53] herman Bergson: true...the hard way
[13:54] herman Bergson: farmers in the US go bankrupt...China doesnt buy a single soyabean from the US anymore
[13:54] herman Bergson: but they voted for trump
[13:54] herman Bergson: That creates the mass protests
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem is lack of education and to see the reality. This is why Trump is so onto destroying the education system, to keep people uneducated and blind to critical thinking so they will vote for him again and again
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): knowing nothing but hate for others
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he himself has a very low IQ
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he speaks like a child
[13:55] herman Bergson: Don't underestimate him Beertje
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a gigant baby
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a gigant DANGEROUS baby
[13:55] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): modern world is immersed in noise and forgetfulness.
[13:56] herman Bergson: He is doing a lot of things we have no knowledge about
[13:56] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): they'll elected the next stupid for sure
[13:56] herman Bergson: You never know John.... JD VANCE ㋡
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he must not replace Trump!
[13:57] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): we all know businessmen who look like ignorant idiot but who have a great sharp mind for business
[13:57] herman Bergson: Maybe Gavin Newsom is an option?
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: But he's a likely candidate.
[13:57] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I don't say it's Trumpo's case, I don't know.
[13:58] herman Bergson: Well, this much about money :-)
[13:58] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I suspect he's making a lot of money, because Trump's decisions and statements influence the markets in a way he can foresee
[13:58] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): and buy or sell stocks in consequence
[13:59] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation....:)
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ....
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:59] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Thank you Herman
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaah
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good one
[13:59] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.
[13:59] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): time goes always too fast in your classes
[13:59] herman Bergson: You mean Newsom, John?
[14:00] Max Chatnoir: It does.
[14:00] herman Bergson: I try to keep youawaqke, you know ㋡
[14:00] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I mean insider trading
[14:00] herman Bergson: Happens a lot
[14:00] Max Chatnoir: You definitely keep us awake!
[14:00] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): that's what Elon Musk does all the time.
[14:01] herman Bergson: They all do it, those at the top
[14:01] herman Bergson: Is a public secret, I guess ㋡
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