For Aristotle, economic thought is closely related to ethics. Wealth, in this context, is a collection of useful goods, a store of grain, tools, and land,
that are directly instrumental for living well. It is a means to an end, and that end is unequivocally non-economic.
This conception of wealth is inherently bounded. Just as a shipbuilder does not seek to build an infinite number of ships but only as many as are needed for navigation,
the good household manager does not seek infinite wealth but only what is “useful for life and good for the community.”
Aristotle argues that there is a natural limit to property, defined by its function within the *oikos*. A tool is good insofar as it performs its function.
Beyond that, more tools are superfluous. Similarly, wealth is good only to the point that it enables the virtuous activity of the household members.
Listen to what Aristotle himself says in his Politika, part IV: - QUOTE - There are two sorts of wealth-getting, as I have said; one is a part of household management,
the other is retail trade: the former necessary and honorable, while that which consists in exchange is justly censured; for it is unnatural, and a mode by which men gain from one another.
The most hated sort, and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself, and not from the natural object of it,
for money was intended to be used in exchange, but not to increase at interest.
And this term interest, which means the birth of money from money, is applied to the breeding of money because the offspring resembles the parent.
Wherefore, of all modes of getting wealth, this is the most unnatural. - END QUOTE
A simple example of this unnatural character of making money: suppose someone needs 100 euro and you have enough to give him a loan.
However, you say, you have to repay me 120 euro, otherwise you won't get the loan. Is that helping each other or exploitation?
Now, let's contrast this with what we now consider natural.
In economics, capitalism is a system where private individuals or companies own and control the means of production, such as factories and natural resources, and operate them for profit.
Prices, wages, and production levels are primarily determined by free markets through the forces of supply and demand, rather than by central government planning.
Key features include the private ownership of property, the freedom to invest and trade, and the motive to make a profit.
We still have a long way to go to find out why this line of thought prevailed and not the moral and virtuous approach suggested by Aristotle.
Thank you for your attention... The floor is yours...
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
of Economic Thought (2012)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:18] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman!
[13:19] herman Bergson: While writing this lecture I thought....the basic characteristic of capitalism is exploitation
[13:19] herman Bergson: exploitation of the other
[13:20] herman Bergson: We will discuss that in future lectures definitely
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: But does capitalism necessarily include moneylending?
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: necessarily?
[13:20] herman Bergson: yes, absolutely
[13:21] herman Bergson: It is called investing.... you lend money to someone who wants to build a factory for instance
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: Is that the "motive to make a profit" part?
[13:22] herman Bergson: One of the motives indeed.... the shareholders of the bank want to see money, so the bank has to make a profit with its investment
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: How do shareholders become shareholders -- by contributing to the factory costs?
[13:23] herman Bergson: ANother way to make money is to sell products for a price which does not equal the production costs of the product
[13:24] herman Bergson: The shareholders buy stocks of the bank, which is equal to lending their money to the bank
[13:24] herman Bergson: and the bank then lend the money to the factory builder
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: Profit making on products seems reasonable.
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: But profiting on moneylending seems a little shady.
[13:25] herman Bergson: who repays the loan with an interest, which is the profit of the bank, with which it pays its shareholders, among other things
[13:26] herman Bergson: It is not withour reason that Aristotle questions it and calls it unnatural...also Bible and Quran forbid lending money with interest
[13:27] herman Bergson: So, in a way people must have felt that there is something questionable here
[13:28] herman Bergson: However, our whole financial system now is based on making money with money
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: my church a few decades ago borrowed money for upgrading the property.
[13:29] herman Bergson: Teh many times I am invited to buy shares.... or to start trading...also some ado with stockmarket
[13:29] herman Bergson: We'll get to that soon Max :-)
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: Nearly all of what we pay is interest.
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: That seems a little dodgey
[13:30] herman Bergson: Because....what is the Church's workaround of this issue
[13:30] herman Bergson: I'll address this issue in the next lecture, Max, promissed ㋡
[13:30] herman Bergson: Because this is of course fun
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: :-)
[13:31] herman Bergson: For everything we have a justifying bible verse :-)
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: I'd like to know which one covers the excessive interest....
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: The justifying bible verse....
[13:32] herman Bergson: Well, depends how you approach the matter, from the old or from the new testament
[13:33] herman Bergson: Jesus want that happy with the moneymakers and gave them a beating, if I remember well :-)
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it important what a moren tan 2000 year old book sais?
[13:33] herman Bergson: He threw them out of the temple...very synmbolic
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes, Beertje, because it has played and still plays an important role in our culture, whether you agree with it or not
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: The origin of ethical principles is interesting because they are effectively invented.
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: Is there a "natural" form of capitalism?
[13:35] Stranger Nightfire: The actual that Jewish families predominated in the banking industry was that back in the days the banks were being formed the Christian Church considered taking interest on a loan to be a mortal sin
[13:35] herman Bergson: They are invented ndeed, Max, but as we discussed in former rpojects, not by christianity
[13:35] Stranger Nightfire: So the Christians went to the Jews and said you'll have to set up the banks for us
[13:36] Stranger Nightfire: In other words it's not some conspiracy that is the historical origin of it
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: I'm not suggesting conspiracy.
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: I think that the Jews were excluded from a lot of other activities.
[13:37] Stranger Nightfire: Of course the Christian Church is largely abandoned their stance on that
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes to some extend this is correct...more factors played a role, but we'll get to that
[13:37] Stranger Nightfire: for the most part not even calling out egregious capitalist exploitation
[13:38] Stranger Nightfire: Well someone like Pope Francis dead
[13:38] Stranger Nightfire: did
[13:39] herman Bergson: Some wish him indeed, I guess (nice typo:-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: Some wish him indeed, I guess (nice typo:-)
[13:41] herman Bergson: I have chat window issues...
[13:41] herman Bergson: Can't type
[13:41] herman Bergson: oh...now it is working again
[13:42] herman Bergson: Some wish him d e a d indeed, I guess (nice typo:-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: maybe it is that word d e a d
[13:42] Lukkie Sands: Is everyone still here?
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i am
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes, do you read me?
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: I am
[13:43] Stranger Nightfire: yes
[13:43] herman Bergson: weird... maybe the Pope intervened
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Pope intervened in what?
[13:44] herman Bergson: In the banking issues and Stranger's remarks :-))
[13:44] Stranger Nightfire: Right wingers and capitalists despised Pope Francis
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes, I can imagine....
[13:45] herman Bergson: He is a man who knows what he is talking about....
[13:45] Stranger Nightfire: Was
[13:45] Stranger Nightfire: you do realize he did die and was replaced now with Pope Leo
[13:46] herman Bergson: oh yeah...true... but this Leo is also a danger for the right and capitalist, is my impression
[13:46] Stranger Nightfire: And some of us are still scratching our heads about exactly where Pope Leo stands on these things
[13:46] herman Bergson: ahh
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: But was there a pope who intervened in the moneylending issue?
[13:47] Stranger Nightfire: As I said in the Middle Ages they were dead set against it
[13:47] Stranger Nightfire: Which as I said is why Jews became the leaders of the banking industry
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: So did some Pope then say it was OK, so long as the money lenders weren't Christian?
[13:48] herman Bergson: It were the Dutch, Max.....We invented the stock market
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: Really, Herman? I mean, I just don't know.
[13:49] Stranger Nightfire: Well I know the Duchess East India Company was the biggest corporation in human history
[13:50] Stranger Nightfire: Apologize again for my voice dictation software
[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes The Dutch did...the first stock market in the world was in Amsterdam... must have been around 1680 or so
[13:50] Stranger Nightfire: Dutch East India Company
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: So did the DEI company (oh, that's ironic) invent moneylending?
[13:51] herman Bergson: To be exact...even in August 1602 opened the first stock market in Amsterdam
[13:51] herman Bergson: But we'll get to all those issues soon Max :-)
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think India must be Indonesie
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: OK, well stock markets sort of seem OK. It opens up partial ownership to people who don't have millions and millions.
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes East Indonesian company
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: But does that include moneylending?
[13:53] herman Bergson: The Dutch were exploiting the Indonesian archipel, not India
[13:53] Stranger Nightfire: Well money lending was really nothing new
[13:53] herman Bergson: As I said....buying a stock is in fact lending your money to someone else...
[13:53] Stranger Nightfire: Remember what pissed off Jesus at the temple
[13:54] herman Bergson: that someone else will build a ship and will try to make a big profit...there it all starts
[13:54] Max Chatnoir: I thought buying a stick makes you a partial owner
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: stock
[13:55] herman Bergson: yes, in theory
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: If the company goes broke you don't get reimbursed
[13:55] herman Bergson: But you cant go to the ship and say...look that mast is my property
[13:56] herman Bergson: no...there is always a risk in stocks
[13:56] Max Chatnoir: No, but I can say 0.00000001% of your profits go to me
[13:56] Stranger Nightfire: Actually in the current system stocks don't even pay dividends anymore
[13:56] herman Bergson: yes that is what you get paid in dividents
[13:57] Stranger Nightfire: Most of them don't
[13:57] herman Bergson: or you can sell the stock and thus (depending on the market) get your money back
[13:57] Stranger Nightfire: The current stock market is something like a gambling casino
[13:58] Stranger Nightfire: You invest in stocks hoping the value of the shares will increase
[13:58] herman Bergson: A pitty Henk isn't here...he is a banking expert n these matters
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: If I give money to somebody, I'm not investing in them. Theoretically, they will give it back or pay it forward or something.
[13:58] Stranger Nightfire: and that is where you get your profits
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: No I just get back what I gave them
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: That's not profit
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: Profit is if I charge them interest
[13:59] herman Bergson: Yes Stranger...I almost went crazy of that constant advertizing on Yotube of some Dutch guy telling you that you could get rich in a week by trading
[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes i know
[13:59] herman Bergson: buying and selling stock like a casino game, I guess
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't trust the guy
[14:00] herman Bergson: ik werd gek van dat blotebillen gezicht :-))))
[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ik ook ツ
[14:00] herman Bergson: Of course not Beertje
[14:00] Max Chatnoir: If you're a stockholder, there is a product being made and sold. Or should be.
[14:01] herman Bergson: There must be a company that is making a profit indeed Max, whatever it sells or produces
[14:02] Max Chatnoir: So it should be producing something.
[14:02] herman Bergson: If it doesn't make a profit,then the value of your stock decreases
[14:02] Stranger Nightfire: Well they make a profit on each individual product sold but that does not necessarily make the company profitable
[14:02] Max Chatnoir: Right
[14:02] Stranger Nightfire: What are the at times Tesla has been rated astronomically high and the company has never actually turned an overall profit
[14:02] herman Bergson: no no Look at the recent history of Tesla stocks
[14:03] Stranger Nightfire: A lot of supposedly valuable stocks are in companies that are not profitable
[14:04] Stranger Nightfire: In fact there is significant number of corporations in the stock market which are referred to as zombie corporations
[14:04] Stranger Nightfire: because their debts far exceed their assets
[14:04] Max Chatnoir: But are those companies who make nothing themselves, but are investing somewhere else?
[14:04] herman Bergson: I am no specialist in these matter. I only know that it can be dangerous territory and a lot of fried air (as we call it)
[14:05] herman Bergson: It is a casino, Max and just what the fool likes to believe in...
[14:05] Stranger Nightfire: Consider that the Nike company does not own factories that make shoes
[14:05] Stranger Nightfire: What the Nike Corporation sells his hype and image making
[14:05] Max Chatnoir: So if they are successful investors, then they are profitable, sort of, but it's at least one step removed from actually making something.
[14:06] herman Bergson: But I guess that the factories that MAKE the Nike shoes pay a nice sum of money to the Nike company
[14:06] Max Chatnoir: They're selling their skill at guessing what will work.
[14:07] Max Chatnoir: Tricky
[14:08] herman Bergson: MAybe I should issue stocks of The Philosophy Class :-)
[14:08] Max Chatnoir: I guess the stock market includes both kinds. The produces and the guessers
[14:08] Max Chatnoir: Producers
[14:08] Max Chatnoir: Aha, but what are you selling, Herman?
[14:09] Stranger Nightfire: Now you've got me thinking of Phony Scam University
[14:09] herman Bergson: We are running already far ahead in this project, so let's slow down again and move to the Middle Ages first
[14:09] Stranger Nightfire: That is Trump University
[14:09] Max Chatnoir: Oops...
[14:10] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[14:10] Max Chatnoir: Are there going to be evil popes?
[14:10] herman Bergson: I dell knowledge and then you should pay a fee...something like that :-))
[14:10] Max Chatnoir: This is beginning to sound like tuition....
[14:11] herman Bergson: I gonna be rich, but after the weekend :-)))
[14:11] Max Chatnoir: Actually I do think that your collection of talks is valuable, and if you collected it in several volumes of books, you could probably sell them!
[14:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do you want to be rich?
[14:11] herman Bergson: So thank you all..take a good rest
[14:11] herman Bergson: No Beertje I am already rich :-))
[14:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[14:12] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[14:12] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[14:12] Max Chatnoir: Good one!
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