390:The Utopia of the Free Market - Altruism

On Youtube I did a search on the term "Altruism". What you find is almost shocking, but that is my personal view. One of the results was a trailer of the documentary "Ayn Rand & The prophecy of Atlas Shrugged".

It was uploaded August 19, 2011 and I was speechless. It was as if the whole world was turned upside down. Ayn Rand as the prophet of the current financial crisis !

Yes, she was with her Utopia of Greed and her Virtue of Self-Interest the opposite. She wasn't the prophet of it, but one of the main causes as a prophet of the Utopia of the Free Market.

Everybody who wished to enter the utopian Atlantis, as described by Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged had to take this oath:

I swear by my life and my love of it that I
will never live for the sake of another
man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

Rational egoism claims that the promotion of one’s own interests is always in accordance with reason. The greatest and most provocative proponent of rational egoism is Ayn Rand, whose The Virtue of Selfishness outlines the logic and appeal of the theory.

Rand argues that: first, properly defined, selfishness rejects the sacrificial ethics of the West’s Judaic-Christian heritage on the grounds that it is right for man to live his own life; and, she argues that, second, selfishness is a proper virtue to pursue.

She states: “the actor must always be the beneficiary of his action and that man must act for his own rational self-interest.” To be ethically selfish thus entails a commitment to reason rather than to emotionally driven whims and instincts.

Reason is, according to Rand, the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

Now, take this. Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.

From an evolutionary point of view the calling monkey makes a mistake. It seems evident, that it is not the fittest surviver in this situation. By calling he makes himself a target for the predator.

If it had adopted the view that “the actor must always be the beneficiary of his action and that man must act for his own rational self-interest.” it would have shut up and run.

This then is an act of altruism, which would be scorned by Rand. But here we enter a dense forest with respect to the concepts of altruism and egoism, c.q. self-interest. Let's make a start with elaborating on these issues.

The meaning of “altruism” in ordinary language is quite different from its use among evolutionary biologists, of which the behavior of the Velvet monkey is an example.

An ultimate motivation of assisting another regardless of one’s direct or indirect self-benefit is necessary for it to be altruistic in the ordinary sense, for what we might call moral altruism.

However, motivations and intentions are not accessible to someone studying non-humans. Thus, they are not part of the meaning of “altruism” in the biological sense.

Biological altruism is a course of action that enhances the expected fitness of another at the expense of one’s own fitness. A matter of importance here is to keep in mind that this behavior is observed among social animals.

You could argue, that, even if we accept an evolutionary approach to human behaviour, there is no particular reason to think that evolution would have made humans into egoists rather than psychological altruists.

On the contrary, it is quite possible that natural selection would have favoured humans who genuinely do care about helping others, i.e., who are capable of ‘real’ or psychological altruism.

I am far from done that the subject of altruism, so we'll continue next lecture.

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Documentary: Uploaded on Aug 19, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-cIEcBqgaA&feature=g-vrec&context=G259e7edRVAAAAAAAAAg
OR
http://atlasshruggeddocumentary.com/
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Ayn Rand at large:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viGkAZR-x8s&feature=related
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a good laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho31mmsvyWc&feature=endscreen&NR=1



The Discussion

[13:17] Merlin Saxondale: Richard Dawkins says a lot about this in Selfish Gene
[13:17] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Merlin...
[13:18] Mick Nerido: In war a solder who falls on a grenade and saves others lives is considered a hero
[13:18] herman Bergson: That is about kin selection, if I am not mistaken
[13:19] herman Bergson: Yes Mick…don't think Rand would call him that
[13:20] Mick Nerido: In fact we call all worse dead good because they sacrificed for our benefit very altruistic i'd say
[13:20] herman Bergson: But I think Rand ignores all social features of the human being....
[13:20] Mick Nerido: war
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:20] Clerisse Beeswing: almost like me on a bus not making eye contacts with weirdos just to avoid them but in order to get them away from someone else one must act
[13:20] herman Bergson: Rand was against conscription for instance...
[13:21] herman Bergson: next time I'll discuss psychological egoism and altruism....
[13:21] Mick Nerido: In nomadic societies cooperation is encoraged
[13:21] herman Bergson: That deals with your action Clerisse
[13:22] Clerisse Beeswing: my ego and my psyche
[13:22] herman Bergson: Rand ignores a lot of empirical knowladge about the human being as social being...
[13:23] herman Bergson: For her we are plain individuals which are focused on our self-interest...gifted with that brilliant ratio that figures all out for us...
[13:23] Beertje Beaumont: how can a woman that thinks like that..have such an influence in the world?
[13:24] herman Bergson: never found any information about what she'd like to do with sick, mentally and physically handicapped people, old people, less gifted people...
[13:24] Velvet Braham: by writing bestselling novels!
[13:24] Clerisse Beeswing: she sounds very harsh
[13:24] herman Bergson: Well Velvet ....that is half the truth I would say....
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hmm really strange way to see at people and think its the right thing to behave
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: so she basically is responsible for all bad things happening in the world now?
[13:25] oola Neruda: she does address those less fortunate people ... she says swim... or sink
[13:25] herman Bergson: Because Atlas Shrugged was translated in to Dutch only in 2007....50 years after it was published in the US
[13:25] herman Bergson: In Europe is ais basically unknown...
[13:26] herman Bergson: She wrote a bestselling novel that suited the American mind and way of thinking....I would say
[13:26] Mick Nerido: She has taken the cult of individual personality to an extreme logical conclusion...
[13:26] Velvet Braham: she's not responsible for the state of the world, but she predicted it
[13:26] herman Bergson: At least to an extreme conclusion, Mick
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:26] herman Bergson: She did not predict it.....
[13:27] herman Bergson: she stimulated the believe in the utopia of greed....
[13:27] herman Bergson: Influenced the right people...Greenspan, Friedman Hayek...
[13:27] herman Bergson: They liked her ideas.....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: and from that it went straihgt down to hell
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:28] oola Neruda: in a way, it excuses the competitive nature in some people... and in some...the competition is to be on top... she says go for it and excuses any means to get there...
[13:28] herman Bergson: Just look on Youtube....I'll give you a few URLs after class.....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:28] oola Neruda: greed will take you a long way
[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: it's stupid to follow her fantasies
[13:29] oola Neruda: you believe what you want to believe
[13:29] herman Bergson: What you see is a load of movies tellin gthat there is too much government ...all American stuff....
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: I use to think, how can these people really sleep at night but guess they have no feel at all for others
[13:29] Beertje Beaumont: they dream of power and money Bejiita..
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: its strange cause i thought it was some instinct we had being social naturally
[13:29] herman Bergson: They believe they are right Bejiita....and then you sleep well :-)
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: but that seems not to be the case for many paople
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm aa maybe
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: its not logical for me but then i'm totally opposite
[13:30] herman Bergson: When it goes wrong you invent a new theory which tells you that it still is right... ㋡
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: i care lot for others
[13:30] herman Bergson: That is normal, Bejiita ^_^
[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: i do too
[13:31] Mick Nerido: my theory is that the suburbs and the auto allowed less close living and a more selfish lifestyle to florish
[13:31] herman Bergson: What Rand ignores completely is the social characteristics of the human being....
[13:31] oola Neruda: she was never a mother
[13:31] oola Neruda: or if she was.......
[13:31] herman Bergson: She makes us a skeleton with only a rational brain....
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: poor child then
[13:32] herman Bergson: even love is a business transaction in her opinion
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: she would for sure not been a good mother
[13:32] herman Bergson: I'll give you one URL where she explains this...
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: eee ok
[13:33] herman Bergson: the judge for yourself....
[13:33] herman Bergson: then
[13:33] Velvet Braham: It would have been interesting to see if her point of view changed if she had a child
[13:33] Clerisse Beeswing: not all people are cut out to be parents
[13:33] Mick Nerido: who were her parents?
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well that is one of the problems Velvet...
[13:34] herman Bergson: for the care for a child is regarded as atruistic behavior
[13:34] herman Bergson: or adopting a child?
[13:34] Velvet Braham: she emigrated from communist Russia.
[13:34] Velvet Braham: I think a lot of her viewpoint were formed by peoples' money and property being seized by the government.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Rand was an ardent opponent of all forms of collectivism....
[13:36] herman Bergson: For instance ...general healthcare was a no go for her...
[13:36] Mick Nerido: was she religous?
[13:36] herman Bergson: and at the momenet in the US...you hear people scream that they don't want Europena socialism.....
[13:37] herman Bergson: NO!!!! She was against all forms of religion! Mick
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: basically the rich should get care and surfive the poor just die
[13:37] herman Bergson: Because those religions preached altruism.....
[13:37] herman Bergson: and the most peculiar thing is...
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thats an awful wiev healtcare should be for everyone
[13:37] herman Bergson: when you look at all world religions....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: but see clearly the signs here as well
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: going all wrong direction
[13:38] herman Bergson: one of their main focusses is the care for your fellowman....altruism as a virtue
[13:38] herman Bergson: An interesting observation...
[13:39] herman Bergson: There is a lot to see on Youtube....so I would say...have alook at the next URLS....
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Before there was health insurance religous organizations handled health care..
[13:40] herman Bergson: Hi Dusty....
[13:40] Dusty Kupferwasser: Hello
[13:40] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...
[13:40] herman Bergson: See you on Thursday again...
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:41] Dusty Kupferwasser blushes
[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: thanks professor
[13:41] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:41] herman Bergson: a bit late Dusty?
[13:41] Velvet Braham: thank you, professor!
[13:41] herman Bergson: Ah Rodney is in time...
[13:42] Mick Nerido: very interesing classs, thanks herman!
[13:42] Rodney Handrick: Hi Herman
[13:42] herman Bergson: Class was just dismissed Rodney !
[13:42] Rodney Handrick: Really? man...
[13:42] Velvet Braham: Well, gotta get back to Atlas Shrugged. It's a good re-read!
[13:43] Velvet Braham: the new one?
[13:43] Velvet Braham: I saw part 1
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aa managed to download a copy of it so checking it out a bit too
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: makes u get the picture better
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes the 2011 Part 1
[13:43] Velvet Braham: it is good, yes!
[13:44] herman Bergson: I had read the book....and the movie stood the test....
[13:44] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman..the ideas of rand are concerning me
[13:44] Velvet Braham: I read he book in high school, but it's a different story to me now
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hmm that last youtube makes a point, she seems completley insane for sure
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: at least have a very strange view on humanity
[13:44] herman Bergson: Just look at the Ayn Rand YouTube clip I gave you......
[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: yes i will:)
[13:45] herman Bergson: But look at all other stuff on Rand....
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: will be interesting checking then trough
[13:45] herman Bergson: She has a large group of zealous supporters
[13:45] herman Bergson: till today
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:45] herman Bergson: The Tea Party people is one of them
[13:46] Velvet Braham: gah
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: Well, I will go, bye all
[13:46] Velvet Braham: bye Merlin
[13:46] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: eee ok but is the tea party something good?
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: didnt remember what it was all about
[13:46] Velvet Braham: it was a couple hundred years ago
[13:46] Velvet Braham: now, not so much
[13:47] herman Bergson: In Boston it was an act of independence...1760 or so...
[13:47] Velvet Braham: a protest against paying taxes
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes was something like that
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes Velvet....
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: but wasnt that cause the taxes was awfully high
[13:47] herman Bergson: and now the Tea Party protests against almost everything that is governmental
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:48] herman Bergson: deregulation they call it....
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm then its not so good
[13:48] herman Bergson: The oath of Atlantis....
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: seen the results here
[13:48] Velvet Braham: in the 1760's it was about paying taxes to England
[13:49] Velvet Braham: but having no vote
[13:49] Velvet Braham: no representation in government
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: they said here it would get cheaper and better but the opposite is true
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: turned into a nightmare
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: trains healthcare
[[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ect
[13:49] herman Bergson: Same here Bejiita...
[13:50] herman Bergson: Long live the Free Market....
[13:50] Velvet Braham: this is very interesting stuff
[13:50] herman Bergson: And I claim that it is a Utopia....
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: aa maybe cause to get it to really work this way is impossible
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well Velvet....Thursday same time same place next round :-)
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: its like saying - is +
[13:51] Velvet Braham: sweet. I'll see you all on Thursday!
[13:51] herman Bergson: You are welcome, Velvet
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu soon
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: time to prepare for Qwarks party now i guess
[13:52] Nitro Fireguard: I must go now
[13:52] Nitro Fireguard: See you soon
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu all
[13:52] herman Bergson: Ok Nitro....
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:52] Nitro Fireguard: and thank you for this interesting session :-)
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: was great
[13:52] Nitro Fireguard: byeeee
[13:52] herman Bergson: my pleasure...
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: you hit some interesting spots here
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:52] herman Bergson: It is pretty exciting Bejiita...
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: aaa indeed
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and scary
[13:53] herman Bergson: yes...especially that

389: The Utopia of the Free Market - Rand's Utopia

It is remarkable to note that in many studies on utopian ideas, you don't find any references to the utopia Atlantis of Ayn Rand.

There are on or two exception, which refer to the neoliberal utopia, but it almost seems that we have a blind spot, which obscures our view of the utopian features of capitalism.

It is like we take capitalism and its present form, neoliberalism, for granted, like we take gravity, electricity or magnetism for granted. That is just the way nature is, isn't it?

Let's have a closer look at this Atlantis of Ayn Rand and how it comes into being. Let's begin with the basic idea of the story in "Atlas Shrugged"

There is a striking resemblance between a tale by Claude-Henri de Saint-Simon (1760-1825) and the basic plot in Rand's novel.

Saint-Simon say: Suppose one day 50 top scientists of France, 50 top bankers, 50 leading engineers, a hundred farmers, craftsmen and artists would disappear.

The country would become a body without a heart. All activity would come to a standstill.

Now, suppose this. We leave all above mentioned groups in place and make all ministers disappear and with them hundreds of officials, landowners, cardinals, and ten thousand of the richest people, who do not work.

What would happen to the country? Probably nothing, because the empty places can be filled easily by others, because the people that disappeared were useless anyway.

Useful to the prosperity of the country are the people that do the real work, people who are creative and productive. And this is what is the core of Rand's story.

Top industrialists, scientists, bankers, managers and lawyers just disappear suddenly. Public transportation breaks down and so on.

But these people do not just disappear. They move to a valley in the mountains of Colorado where they establish their Atlantis.

That is the utopia in which not only Rand, but also men like Greenspan, Hayek, Friedman believed. When you let the market absolutely free, there will emerge an ideal society in which prices optimally will reflect the balance between capital and labor. That was their utopian belief.

In Atlantis all human relations are dominated by money. You don't need a government to control affairs, but you just pay for everything you need and get paid for what you produce.

Although Rand is reluctant to use the term, Atlantis is a society. Rand however prefers to see it as a collection of free individuals guided by their rational self-interest.

Atlantis is a whole new world, a new way of life. To bring this message of salvation to the whole world, the old world has to be destroyed.

The utopians in Atlantis do their utmost to destroy the outside world by blowing up their mines, abandon their factories, attacking and destroying all shipping.

The heroes of Atlantis are pure and dedicated to their conviction. When Dagny Taggert arrives in Atlantis and stays in the house of the man who loves her, she, of course, has to pay for her stay.

But she has no Atlantis money. No problem, to earn money she does his household. And she already is a true believer. When her lover offers her to help with the dishes, she says:

Oh no….isn't that agains the rules?! Oops, yes.

This is the oath all inhabitants of Atlantis take:
I swear by my life and my love of it that I
will never live for the sake of another
man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

It is not done to help your neighbor for free in Atlantis. Altruism leads to destruction. This leads to statements like this: " For a man of moral stature, whose desires are born of rational values, sacrifice is the surrender of the right to the wrong, of the good to the evil.

And this "I now work for use, not for profit - my use, not the looters' profit. Only those who add to my life, not those who devour it, are my market. Only those who produce, not those who consume, can ever be anybody's market. I deal with the life-givers, not with the cannibals."

What to do with those who are not such creative, productive and rational beings? No problem, they'll yet need money to survive, so they automatically become the labor force of this shining neoliberal world.

That is what Adam Smith called "the invisible hand of the market". And those who can not work? The answer to that question we can see all over the world. These people end up in slums near big cities and live in extreme poverty. Simple as that, if it were Ayn Rand to judge.


The discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:23] herman Bergson: The floor is yours.. ㋡
[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: Brilliant Herman, Thank you!
[13:23] Star Magne: yes thank you...
[13:23] herman Bergson: Well...if you have any remarks or questions :-)
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: so how do these people eat with put money
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: just curious
[13:24] Mick Nerido: even right wing tea party in US believe in giving to charties.
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: of course they
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: particularly
[13:24] herman Bergson: Rand doesn't
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: Rand is turgid
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hmm that's also a thing we clearly see here in sweden, with the party that governs sweden now work and money is the way to go
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: why would you read her
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: the unemployed get a real hard time with less and less money while really hard to get a job
[13:25] herman Bergson: Because she has a great influence on economics these days Tessa
[13:25] Star Magne: so the strongest survives...
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and the richer just get richer
[13:25] Tessa Zalivstok: the only good thing from Ayn Rand was when she gave Greenspan the nickname "the Undertaker"
[13:26] Mick Nerido: Bill Gates and other capitalist rich give a lot to causes...
[13:26] Beertje Beaumont: will you excuse me Herman..i have to go
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: well they give a lot of money to welfare
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: Tc Beertje
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Mick..what would you do whenyou possess so much money that it needs 5 generations to spend it all
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Beertje
[13:26] Beertje Beaumont: bye:)
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: in fact Friedman writes at great length in praise of private support of the poor
[13:27] Star Magne: help others to help themselves..
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: if i had that much money id sure try help a lot of other people and not just take it for myself
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: but many does just that
[13:27] Mick Nerido: it should be my problem lol
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: now you may think that to be inadequate
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: I do
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: but it's a fact
[13:27] Star Magne: ...lots of freebies
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: and before Bismarck charity was always the function of the Church
[13:28] oola Neruda: social security and medicare are in real danger as well as pensions that have been demolished by companies... people did work but their promised earnings are in danger
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: you can't just dismiss this
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: intil very recently the very management of our hospitals was based on the management of convents
[13:28] herman Bergson: Charity and altruism is a special chapter on its own Tessa..
[13:29] herman Bergson: especialy in relation to Rand
[13:29] herman Bergson: Nice subject for a next lecture
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but you can't pretend that the so-called neo liberals just ignore the poor
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: that's plain wrong
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes thats true, as i said, here the ones who governs see only to the ones who have a job and money, the ones that haven't or are sick are outsiders for them
[13:30] Mick Nerido: did she take her ideas from the natures dog eat dog world do u think?
[13:30] oola Neruda: regarding poverty... it is self interest to head off a mes for it is harder to clean it up
[13:30] herman Bergson: They cant ignore them...of course...it would destabalize society
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: no
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: thats very cynical
[13:30] AnnieBrightstar Resident: But true
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: you can't just choose your opponents and accuse them of cynicism
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: they must help them get a job then, instead they say and this is a bit scary
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: people care
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: their slogan is work gives freedom
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: same as nazis used
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: arbeit macht frei
[13:31] Star Magne: yes have to invest more for people to get jobs
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: you also can'ty just pick hitler slogans and apply them to people who gave their lives to get rid of Hitler
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: that's cheap argument
[13:32] herman Bergson: Leave out Hitler plz....
[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: i hate this sentence, .. sorry
[13:32] herman Bergson: wrong metaphore
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok whispers: well who said that the slogan of the neos is work makes free?
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: they say all should have a work but they yet don't care about the unemployed instead they make life harder and harder for them with restrictions less payout and no help getting a work
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: whats that but a Hitler slogan?
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Fudal society there was King Barons Knights Church and surfs...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Let's get back to the main issue here....
[13:33] herman Bergson: and that was to show that Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand is a true Utopia..
[13:34] herman Bergson: and that her ideas are the basics of the current neoliberalism
[13:34] Mick Nerido: Utopia meaning best of all possible worlds?
[13:34] herman Bergson: Which has led to the financial crisis the world is in now
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: Utopia meaning nowhere
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Mick
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: from Sir Thomas More's eponymous book
[13:35] herman Bergson: Greenspan believed in the blessings of the free market till th ened
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ahj
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:35] Star Magne: what will be the next utopia offering a hope a way out from the currrent ills...?
[13:35] herman Bergson: when he had to admit to the Senate committee that there yes ..something was wrong with that idea
[13:36] herman Bergson: smiles..
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:36] herman Bergson: Well..this is a nice hot issue...
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: interesting for sure
[13:36] herman Bergson: We'll continue on this in a next lecture...
[13:37] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: well I hope for sure that the tables will turn soon and start go in the right direction in some way
[13:37] Mick Nerido: thanks Herman
[13:37] Star Magne: thank you...for all the insights..was a pleasure...to be here ...:))
[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed... ^_^
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: this capital system we have today is dangerous play for sure
[13:37] herman Bergson: Unless you still have an urgent remark or question of course
[13:38] Merlin Saxondale: Bye everyone :)
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: its a difficult topic for sure
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but interestinbg
[13:38] AnnieBrightstar Resident: Bye Merlin
[13:38] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: cu merlin
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:38] Star Magne: efficient energy and human fierndly technology ..can be the grounds for a promissing future?
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ill see if i can find that atlas shrugged and read it
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: seems interesting
[13:38] Star Magne: thanks
[13:38] herman Bergson: I don't pretend to have all answers Bejiita...far from that
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: downloaded and started to read accelerando
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: seems very interesting
[13:39] herman Bergson: But we can look at matters with a critical eye
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: You dont need to be a cook to tell if some dish really tasts good :-)
[13:40] Star Magne: hehee
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed not, hehe
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: true
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: easy to feel if something taste good or bad but harder to actually make
[13:40] AnnieBrightstar Resident: Seems more of an empty plate
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: but as an expert you have another view i think
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: same analogy almost with using a good or bad software and program your own
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy....

388: The Utopia of the Free Market - Neoliberalism

A utopia is not a collection of individual daydreams or abstract expectations about the future. A utopia has quite different features.

A utopia is characterized by three features according to the Dutch philosopher Hans Achterhuis(1942 - …). A utopia is a description of (1) a society, which (2) is doable and (3) is a totality, covering all aspects of life.

This leads to an interesting observation. Through history there have been described many Utopias, but hardly never a liberal one. That is to say, until Ayn Rand.

While liberalism is focused on the individual, a utopia is almost always a description of a society to which the individual has to conform.

So this confronts us with the question: does there exist a liberal utopia? To answer this question we have to make a difference between classic liberalism with names like John Locke (1632 - 1704) and Adam Smith (1723 -1790), who indeed never wrote a utopia

and neoliberalism, that was ardently propagated by Ayn Rand and described in a thoroughbred utopia: "Atlas Shrugged".

Later I'll dig deeper in the historical backgrounds of classic liberalism and neoliberalism, but already a few observations.

Classic liberalism from the 19th center made a sharp distinction between public and private, between state and society.

Current neoliberalism knows only private interests and regards the state as a kind of superior insurance company for private interests.

Neoliberalism assumes that the free market is more capable to organize economic affairs than organizations, which are under government control.

This is the real utopia of neoliberalism, which based on the assumption that it is a good thing to transform governmental tasks into private businesses: healthcare, hospitals, postal services, national railways and public transportation, telephone communication.

Here you see the utopian dimension of neoliberalism at work, which believes in the rather implausible metaphysics of the intrinsic harmony of all private interests on the free market.

And exactly this is the quintessence of the new ideal society, which Ayn Rand describes in 'Atlas Shrugged' and in which Allen Greenspan deeply believed till 2006.

As an economist he saw that things were going wrong, but as a believer he persisted in the conviction that the free market would correct itself.

And a utopian believer he was. When he officially was appointed by Ronald Reagan as President of the Federal Reserve Bank, it was not his wife who stood next to him in the Oval Office, but Ayn Rand.

Completely in line with this development are Ronald Reagan's words (US President 1981 - 1989)"
"Government is not the solution to our problem,. Government IS the problem. "

In several studies on utopian theories, researchers note a frequently occurring resemblance: lust and greed have disappeared and the use of money is abolished.

This in absolute contrast with the ideal Atlantis in "Atlas Shrugged". In Rand's Atlantis it is precisely the virtue of greed, that is praised and money becomes the symbol of success, achieved happiness and success.

With her utopia Ayn Rand did not only attack the communist collectivism, which she had fled in 1932, but in fact also the Western European welfare state, which was based on a deep sense of solidarity.

And under the influence of the neoliberal utopia of the free market we have to face the steady dismantling of this kind of society.

And if you really want to witness the delusion of the free market utopia just watch this Youtube URL and associated URLs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIHLezCyzCI&feature=related


The Discussion

[13:27] herman Bergson: You have 10 minutes to watch it....:-)
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: damn now my computer hates me
[13:27] Mick Nerido: In US neoliberalism is called Right wing or Conservatism
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ok ill check it
[13:27] Merlin Saxondale: yeah, unexpected... need to put sound on
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Mick and the summit is theTea Party movement
[13:28] Merlin Saxondale: With things like this, most of the information is conveyed in the sound
[13:28] herman Bergson: and from now on the floor is yours
[13:29] Merlin Saxondale: In UK there is a Liberal Party.....
[13:29] Merlin Saxondale: It is not the liberalism you describe but it is somewhat left of centre
[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh Yes..,and Margret Thatcher was the neoliberal pur sang in the UK
[13:30] herman Bergson: a dear friend of Ronald Reagan
[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: yes but she was in the Conservative party, not the Liberals
[13:31] Merlin Saxondale: It is the Conservatives who fit your description of liberals
[13:31] herman Bergson: The conservatives are the neoliberals I would say
[13:31] oola Neruda: i see government as being a referee ... necessary regulations... because of the potential of one state to harm another state across borders
[13:31] herman Bergson: Indeed Merlin
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Reagen was a conservative Republican
[13:31] Merlin Saxondale: But there seems to be no agreement on the terminology
[13:32] oola Neruda: also that with big money, elections in states can be "bought" for selfish interests
[13:32] herman Bergson: don't look at the terms, look at their actions....
[13:32] Merlin Saxondale: Of course, but we need to agree on the meanings of words we use in order to communicate
[13:32] oola Neruda: you pollute the mississippi ..you pollute the whole river to new orleans
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes oola....a poor man will never make it in any election in the US, I guess
[13:33] oola Neruda: we NEED government
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes....
[13:33] oola Neruda: if it is not bought and paid for
[13:33] Farv Hallison: LTCM
[13:33] herman Bergson: but the big discussion is between government and private interest and freedom
[13:34] herman Bergson: the balance
[13:34] Merlin Saxondale: I have an issue about the ability of a single person to have huge influence too
[13:34] herman Bergson: well..Merlin...yet it is a historical fact.....
[13:35] Farv Hallison: Let people or banks gamble with their own money.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Galilei, Kepler, Newton, Descartes, Einstein..etc....
[13:35] oola Neruda: on a positive note...there IS a single person who will shortly be having an influence upon the problems in Uganda
[13:35] herman Bergson: Single brains that produced something very influential
[13:35] oola Neruda: and it is a relief to see it happen... renews hope
[13:36] Merlin Saxondale: But the time and the population has to be ready, receptive
[13:36] herman Bergson: The problem is Farv..that banks have no own money...
[13:36] herman Bergson: It is what we put into the bank that they have
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: basically they take our money for their own wallets
[13:37] Mick Nerido: The pendulum swings back and forth between liberal views and conservative in government
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: as i said before , before in time banks and companies were for the people now its the other way around
[13:37] herman Bergson: The metaphor is attractive Mick..but if it is true?
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: they don't care about giving service only to take our money
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: the service is only there as a bait sort of at least with some companies it seems so
[13:38] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:39] herman Bergson: at least we can conclude that we live in an aera, which is driven politically by the utopia of the free market...
[13:39] herman Bergson: This free market is not a natural phenomenon...
[13:39] herman Bergson: we invented it...
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:39] herman Bergson: and it doesn't work...
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and its not living up to what they say it seems
[13:40] Mick Nerido: Think of your money is on loan to a bank which gives u Interest in return
[13:40] Farv Hallison: the market is not free
[13:40] herman Bergson: neither did the total absence of a free market work under communist regimes
[13:40] herman Bergson: So we have to investigate alternatives
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: as said here in sweden we see scary examples of that, trains getting more expensive to ride and that never come in time if at all is one example ¨
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: of this selling out to private hysteria
[13:40] herman Bergson: the balance between collective and private property
[13:41] Farv Hallison: Would it helpto return to the gold standard?
[13:41] Qwark Allen: for what i understand about Ayn Rand, the flaw in this neoliberal try was the lack of regulation
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita in the Netherlands we see the same...
[13:41] Qwark Allen: the free market should had regulation
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: aa yes seem to be same phenomenon everywhere
[13:41] herman Bergson: We never had problems with our national railways...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: not a good development in general for sure
[13:41] Merlin Saxondale: In UK the prices are rising, but the service is improving
[13:41] Qwark Allen: that was the purpose of the government
[13:42] herman Bergson: Since it is privatized there only needs to fall some snow and the system breaks down
[13:42] herman Bergson: Lack of maintenance....etc...
[13:42] Merlin Saxondale: lol
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: here in sweden we can soon get nowhere even the gasoline have been extremley expensive the train is even more, soon we cant afford to go anywhere
[13:42] Merlin Saxondale: That has been a problem here too... leaves on the line is the classic one
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: and we need to get around to work etc
[13:43] herman Bergson: Ah yes Merlin Autumn leaves.....a killer for the system, though it never has been
[13:43] herman Bergson: tilll they became a private enterprise
[13:43] Merlin Saxondale: hehehe
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] herman Bergson: To invest in maintenance costs money and reduces the profits....and the profits is the wholly Grael of each enterprise
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aa nindeed they don't service as they should at all, drinking coffee and heave in money instead
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: the actual service comes in 2nd or even 3rd hand
[13:45] Merlin Saxondale: I did not like nationalization either, but what I really don't like is Monopoly
[13:45] herman Bergson: Well....I guess we'll have a lot to discuss still
[13:45] oola Neruda: many years ago, they did a study...what would make people conserve (gas, resources, etc)
[13:45] herman Bergson: But let us save it for further lectures
[13:45] oola Neruda: the best answer they came up with is higher prices
[13:45] herman Bergson: May I thank you for your participation again....
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:46] oola Neruda: people don't do it voluntarily in enough numbers
[13:46] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:46] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:46] Qwark Allen: was extremely interesting
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: but the problem is then we would just be sitting in our homes not getting to work or anything, we need alternative fuels thats cheap together with cheaper vehicles and so
[13:46] Farv Hallison: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and the society would stop
[13:46] Qwark Allen: i`ll see the other videos at youtube about
[13:47] Merlin Saxondale: Well Bejita, I think people should stop travelling so much
[13:47] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:47] Qwark Allen: lol

387: The Utopia of the Free Market - Capitalism....

While "Atlas Shrugged" was and probably still is a bestseller among students of American MBA institutes where the captains of industry are prepared for their job,

the book saw a Dutch translation only in 2007, and this just because it was 50 years ago, that it was published in the US and it was even self-published.

It IS the utopia of Capitalism, an economic system of which many people think, that it is the result of an objective process which is not the result of ideas of others or invented.

Nobody seems responsible for its intrinsic ideology and the obvious utopia, as described in "Atlas Shrugged". There would not exists something like "The Capitalist Manifest".

The opposite is true. "Atlas Shrugged" is this manifest, depicting the ultimate capitalist utopia. In addition to the novel Ayn Rand wrote a non-fiction "footnote" as she called it herself: "Capitalism, the unknown Ideal" (1966).

One of the contributors is that well known name: "Alan Greenspan is president of Town-send-Greenspan & Co., Inc., economic consultants."

The book is fascinating. Let me quote Rand herself:
This book is not a treatise on economics. It is a collection of
essays on the moral aspects of capitalism.

Our approach can best be summarized by my statement in the first issue of The Objectivist Newsletter (January 1962):

Objectivism is a philosophical movement; since politics is a branch of philosophy, Objectivism advocates certain political principles

—specifically, those of laissez-faire capitalism—as the consequence and the ultimate practical application of its fundamental philosophical principles.

It does not regard politics as a separate or primary goal, that is: as a goal that can be achieved without a wider ideological context

Politics is based on three other philosophical disciplines: metaphysics, epistemology and ethics—on a theory of man's
nature and of man's relationship to existence. It is only on such a base that one can formulate a consistent political theory and achieve it in practice… (…)

No politico-economic system in history has ever proved its value so eloquently or has benefited mankind so greatly as capitalism—and none has ever been attacked so savagely, viciously, and blindly."

She continues with stating that the truth about capitalism is secretly obliterated, not by a conspiracy of evildoers however,
-quote-" it cannot be done except with the tacit compliance of those who know better.

By their silence—by their evasion of the clash between capitalism and altruism—it is capitalism's alleged champions who are responsible for the fact that capitalism is being destroyed without a hearing, without a trial, without any public knowledge of its principles, its nature, its history, or its moral meaning. (…)

The method of capitalism's destruction rests on never letting the world discover what it is that is being destroyed—on never allowing it to be identified within the hearing of the young."

Now, when you take into account that Allen Greenspan, as a true disciple of Rand and her Objectivism, has systematically ignored all warnings regarding the oncoming financial crisis, the next words of Rand almost sound prophetic…..

"The guilt for the present state of the world rests on the shoulders of those who are over forty years old today (with a very few exceptions)—those who, when they spoke, said less than they knew and said it less clearly than the subject demanded. This book is addressed to the young—in years or in spirit— who are not afraid to know and are not ready to give up."

Of course Rand was thinking of other shoulders than those of Allen Greenspan and the Chicago-economists like Friedrich von Hayek and Milton Friedman.

But it is their Utopia of the Free Market and its shortcomings, that we now put under the magnifying glass and there we see that Rand's theory of man as being the rational, creative and productive individual, already is a utopia.


The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:20] : Kime Babenco raises hand
[13:21] Kime Babenco: Applause
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:21] herman Bergson: The floor is yours.... ^_^
[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting
[13:21] herman Bergson: floor
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: I like Rand's idea of blaming the older generation, as a general principle
[13:22] herman Bergson: laughs...
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate GIGGLES!!
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: ...LOL...
[13:22] herman Bergson: good idea Merlin
[13:22] herman Bergson: it was that generation that fed you and educated you
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: Well, I'm one too, but we all have predecessors
[13:22] Mick Nerido: Do you think man is not rational, creative and productive?
[13:23] herman Bergson: assuming you are the younger generation
[13:23] Merlin Saxondale: Im not!
[13:23] herman Bergson: Ahh Mick....good remark!!!!
[13:24] Mistyowl Warrhol: Never trust anyone over thirty..where have I heard that before LOL
[13:24] Merlin Saxondale: only the over 30's would remember that Misty
[13:24] herman Bergson: The point is that traditionally philosophy assumed that the essence of being human was being rational...have a ratio...think of Descartes
[13:24] Kime Babenco: People are not better than you can expect from people... Altruisme... Great... You find that among soldiers or miners,,, not in business at stock exchanges or at politics
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: as old as molecules
[13:24] herman Bergson: However...consciousness as we possess is way more that just being rational
[13:25] herman Bergson: No Kime…Rand even sees altruism as the ultimate destructive tool of capitalism and society
[13:26] Kime Babenco: When people have a lot of power... they like it... We have religious powers, political ones, and financial ones
[13:26] Beertje Beaumont gave you Snapshot : Bergson's, Wainscot (213, 213, 38).
[13:27] Mick Nerido: capitalism assumes everyone is selfish and make it a virtue...
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Mick...and that is a fundamental mistake...
[13:28] Kime Babenco: Is it the kind of society you would like ?
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Are we not all responsible for our selves?
[13:28] herman Bergson: even from an evolutionary point of view it can be shown that evolution has not led to ultimate selfishness as the way to survive
[13:28] Mistyowl Warrhol: Kime makes some very good points.
[13:28] oola Neruda: no man is an island...to quote another famous source
[13:28] herman Bergson: exactly oola!
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: she would never accept that
[13:29] Mick Nerido: Does Rand disagree with wealth philanthropy?
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: oh
[13:30] herman Bergson: the quintessential core question of this project is actuallly.....what is the relation between government and the free individual, I think
[13:30] herman Bergson: Like Bill Gates does Mick?
[13:30] oola Neruda: a bit like state's rights... i think...
[13:30] oola Neruda: which the civil war was fought over
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Yes like Gates, she thinks this is bad?
[13:31] herman Bergson: I guess she would disapprove of it yes
[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: primitive peoples have a lot of sympathy with on eanother, so what rand says leads to an inappropriate and unnatural way of life
[13:31] Mick Nerido: She is cold..
[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Lizzy....
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: she was very cold personally
[13:32] Kime Babenco: Well, I can give an example... In Brasil Lula (ex president) started the zero fame plan (no one with hunger)... And education encouraged... At the other side in USA, the so called rich country of the planet, about 4 million people have lost their house because of stupid bankers
[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: and why the silent majority stay silent, while the radicals use every means to shout their greedy ways.
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: take a look at her
[13:32] herman Bergson: She really misses the point obsessed by her anti collectivism as she is
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Communism was an attempt to spread the wealth evenly it failed...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Mick..communism is as unnatural as Rands Utopia , I would say
[13:33] Mick Nerido: I agree
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: In her time, there was no fast communication, so did she ever think that there would be those who would share their wealth and power. That was something that wasn't in the news then.
[13:33] Kime Babenco: Communism was a good idea maybe , but in ended up with an elite class of captalism
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Kime....
[13:34] herman Bergson: after 1989 all of a sudden there were russian mijardairs...
[13:34] herman Bergson: millionairs
[13:34] herman Bergson: I was flabbergasted....
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: billionaires now
[13:35] herman Bergson: How could that be possible
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: the top of the billionair list
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: came out yesterday
[13:35] herman Bergson: amazing
[13:36] herman Bergson: so...
[13:36] herman Bergson: the essential question here is...
[13:37] herman Bergson: what is the balance between government control and the individual freedom
[13:37] herman Bergson: The Free Market Utopia had its answer as formulated by Rand...
[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: difficult question
[13:37] Mick Nerido: tough question
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes it is....
[13:37] herman Bergson: For instance....
[13:38] Kime Babenco: Does one go into politics because of ideal ? Or because of personal benifits ?
[13:38] herman Bergson: All states in Europe are spending more money than they earn by taxes....all of them...
[13:38] herman Bergson: which household woulddo that for years?
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: here in the usa too
[13:38] herman Bergson: oh yes...
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: but of course two wars cost a lot
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: tsk
[13:39] herman Bergson: The problem is ....when you spend 10.000 dollars you dont have...
[13:39] herman Bergson: you go to a bank and take a loan on those 10.000
[13:39] herman Bergson: then you only have to pay...say...1000 a year for it....
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: After WWII, it was considered one's civil duty to pay taxes.
[13:39] herman Bergson: for 14 years...
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Governments can just print more money
[13:40] herman Bergson: those 1000 you can afford and for the public you can play Santa
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: the central banks Mick
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well..I'll go on withthis project
[13:41] Kime Babenco: But let's assume you asked 100 000 for the bank to buy a house... and have to pay it as 110 000 in 10 years , but suddenly the houses fall in prices, and the bank is out of money... They want your money still...
[13:41] herman Bergson: and maybe dismantle neoliberalism... ㋡
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes KIme....
[13:42] herman Bergson: those are the finacial bubbles
[13:43] herman Bergson: There is a flaw in your remakr Kime....
[13:43] herman Bergson: The 10 year contract stands...and the people can pay it ...
[13:43] herman Bergson: whatever the situation of th ebank is
[13:43] Kime Babenco: If failing banks have to be saved by the government when they fail... (so the tax payers), then why don't we see any money from it when they gain a lot ? So I guess banking is better be done by the offical governments maybe... Or at least a very strict control on it ...
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...without loosing us in all kinds of details....
[13:44] herman Bergson: I'd love to see you agian next Tuesday... ㋡
[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] herman Bergson: Tahnk you all for your participation...
[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:44] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman great subject
[13:44] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman:)
[13:44] Kime Babenco: Thank YOU ALL !
[13:45] oola Neruda: take care all
[13:45] oola Neruda: baiee
[13:45] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting lecture and ty :-)
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: you too
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: bye oola
[13:45] oola Neruda is Offline
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:45] Mistyowl Warrhol: Bye Gemma, tc :-)
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: bye everybody
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: yes, bye everyone from me too
[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: Bye all :-)
[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: we again have a lot to think about:)
[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: Yes, we do.

386: The Utopia of the Free Market - Atlas Shrugged

In her Introduction to her book "Capitalism, the unknown Ideal (1666) Ayn Rand writes :"This book is addressed to the young—in years or in spirit— who are not afraid to know and are not ready to give up.

What they have to discover, what all the efforts of capitalism's enemies are frantically aimed at hiding, is the fact that capitalism is not merely the "practical," but the only moral system in history. (See Atlas Shrugged.) (…) This present book may help them. It is a nonfiction footnote to Atlas Shrugged."

This illustrates exactly how Ayn Rand influenced American economic thinking: primarily through her novels and especially "Atlas Shrugged".

The opening line of Atlas Shrugged is: "Who is John Galt?" It appears to be a kind of slang expression, which you use when you don't know what to say, somewhat like "Whatever!" But in Part III of Atlas Shrugged the question is answered….

Although the story is centered around Taggert Transcontinental Railways, the core of the story is this:

In the history to date the burden of the survival of humanity is always worn by 'Atlases', i.e. free, brilliant and creative producers. They made sure there was food for everyone, they taught their fellowmen to study nature rationally and to develop techniques to subject nature.

They made life getting better. Through the influence of mystics, priests and philosophers, these creative loners however, also were convinced that it is their responsibility and obligation to largely self efface for their fellow human beings whose needs should be central. (Rand's anti-altruism)

In the indeterminate age which Ayn Rand describes in her novel and which seems to lie not far into the future , one has largely accepted the idea of collective altruism. Outside America, in old Europe, one no longer believed already in production for the free market.

There are everywhere people's republics created in which the means of production are nationalized.This leads to disaster and misery. As the only remaining capitalist state in the world America must support and nurture Europeans.

But even this last bastion of the free market will perish for two reasons. In the first place the government in Washington with its socialist aspirations puts increasingly a heavy burden on the economy.

This all is regulated with strong support of the trade unions. There are increasing taxes and cartels (of which Rand was an ardent supporter) are prohibited. There are increasingly interventions in the free economy, because of which production decreases rapidly.

Secondly the demise of the free market takes place as more and more top industrials mysteriously disappear. With their disappearance disappears often their property too, the means of production destroyed. Oil wells are on fire, factories are sabotaged .

And if that was not bad enough, every time a large capitalist disappears without leaving too much direct damage, no one appears able to take over and continue operations. Any successor who takes over the holding, including the state-appointed managers, fails hopelessly.

The result is that the collapsing economy and society falls back to barbaric times of hunger and poverty.
There is no more heating, the trains break down, the food shipments from the west don't reach New York and other major cities in the East anymore.

Ayn Rand describes the downfall of America as a classic dystopia, which means the idea of a society in a repressive and controlled state, often under the guise of being utopian, as characterized in books like Brave New World or 1984.

At the same time secretly in a valley in the rugged mountains of Colorado, a new society is prepared, which will be the utopia of greed.

Here live the disappeared super-industrialists, bankers and the judge who absolutely wanted to maintain private property rights.

This valley, as they say themselves, is their Atlantis. In the world outside, these Atlases went out on strike and they reached something striking workers never achieved:

the civil clockwork has come to a stand still just by the hand the capitalists. When they go on strike the whole economy collapses.

In their own Atlantis now the residents indulge themselves fully in free market capitalism. Everyone produces,acts and competes with each other. Nothing is given out of engagement or friendship, everything must be earned by working or be paid for.

The super capitalists in Atlantis even love telling each other how much they compete with eachother and fleece the other. This is only good for production and wealth, which will grow rapidly in this way.

When the social collapse of the outside world finally is inescapable and the New Yorkers are in a desperate exodus of their city and attempt state to leave, the time has come for the people of Atlantis to save the world.

John Galt, their leader, who has worked hard to destroy the old world, says at the end of the novel and I quote:

"The road is cleared," said Galt. "We are going back to the world."
He raised his hand and over the desolate earth he traced in space the sign of the dollar.


The Discussion

[13:27] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:27] herman Bergson: shrugges ㋡
[13:27] Mistyowl Warrhol: LOL
[13:28] herman Bergson: The floor is yours if you have a question or remark
[13:28] oola Neruda: it is public knowledge that large corporations in the US have a lot of money but are refusing to hire now...
[13:28] Android Neox: The problem with capitalism as a moral system is that morality depends upon an assumption of some equality among people. Capitalism makes no such assumption and no compensation for the condition of one's birth.
[13:28] Android Neox: The survival and advancement of mankind is actually due to the cooperative labors of the masses… not supermen. All accomplishment and wealth is due, in part, to society. From The Radical Politics of Thomas Jefferson, "Give a man a continent and, without society, he cannot prosper. He may, with effort, survive. But, he cannot prosper."
[13:28] herman Bergson: hold on plz....
[13:29] herman Bergson: keep our rules, which are behind me to the left, in mind
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Android....
[13:30] oola Neruda: i feel they are manipulating the economy for political reasons
[13:30] herman Bergson: Cut you statement to nice pieces...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe we can discuss them then
[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh yes oola...large companies do...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Take the oil companies...
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Survival of the fittest...
[13:31] oola Neruda: deregulation is a battle cry
[13:31] herman Bergson: they come up with the excuse...trouble in the east...so prizes of gas go up
[13:31] oola Neruda: or the excuse... we want to see what interest rates are doing
[13:32] oola Neruda: that is wall street talk... money is the goal
[13:32] herman Bergson: Well oola..that is what we'll discuss in future lectures...
[13:32] Farv Hallison: They will manipulate the election by causing a financial collapse in October just before the election.
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: everything is money it seems, yourself as person have no value, your value is in how much money you got
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: that seems to be how they think
[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: Oil prices are set by speculators, oil companies don't want you to know that.
[13:32] herman Bergson: we live in a money economy at the moment, and that hasn't been the case all through hostory...
[13:33] Android Neox: The Republican party has made it clear that they would rather see America fail than Obama succeed.
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: That is one very true statement, android !!!
[13:33] Mert Dexing: We can demonize the big corporations, but it would be more fair to look at our laws. Companies are legally required to do whatever is legal to raise profits. Otherwise shareholders can sue them.
[13:33] herman Bergson: The that is a pretty desperate party Android...
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Mert...WE created this system of the money machine ourselves
[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: If we the people, allow them to get by with it, then who is really at fault.
[13:34] oola Neruda: it was ... my way or no way... had no thought for what people needed
[13:35] Android Neox: I don't think I can fit even a simple argument into 17 words, so I'll be off.
[13:35] Android Neox: thank you all
[13:35] oola Neruda: the propaganda machine...the spin doctors... make it all sound so nice...
[13:35] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:35] herman Bergson: oh dear...
[13:35] herman Bergson: I wouldn't have mind if he used 20 words
[13:35] herman Bergson: well..ok
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The number of lines depends on how wide your window is
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have to keep one thing in mind....
[13:36] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...
[13:36] Mistyowl Warrhol: So, did Ann predict the future or did ppl reading her book create it according to her words?
[13:36] herman Bergson: the last is true Misty....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Greenspan, Friedman, Hayek...the Chicago boys...
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: the capitalists saw an apologist for a moral system they could use to acquire wealth
[13:37] herman Bergson: Rand WAS really influential
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Druth something like that
[13:37] Farv Hallison: Allan Greenspan believed her and created the world in her image...then it collapsed.
[13:37] herman Bergson: exactly Farv..
[13:38] herman Bergson: But you know....
[13:38] oola Neruda: Greenspan is not either/or...there is a lot of grey area in him
[13:38] herman Bergson: Historically the biggest mistake was..
[13:38] druth Vlodovic: people who work only for their own interests aren't really loyal to a moral code or system
[13:38] herman Bergson: when in the 80s the communist economies collapsed...
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think I am supposed to know who Alan Greenspan is, but I dont
[13:39] oola Neruda: ended up head of the FED
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: Well, it does go back to the Christian Coalition.. which has nothing to do with Christians, but brought a gentleman by the name of Grover Norquist into the picture.
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): aah yes. talk1 I think
[13:39] herman Bergson: the capitalists slapped each other on their shoulders saying..didn't I tell you we were right!!!!
[13:39] Farv Hallison: Greenspan was chairman of the FED
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): when?
[13:39] Mick Nerido: It has not collapsed, it was adjusted down lol
[13:40] druth Vlodovic: communism suffered from the same problem our economy suffers from, rule by the self-interested
[13:40] herman Bergson: at least a wall collapsed Mick ^_^
[13:40] druth Vlodovic: once you can remove consideration fro others from your mind then any system can't survive you running it
[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think pure capitalism is as doomed to fail as pure socialism or communism.
[13:40] herman Bergson: But in a real different way Druth
[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): A balance is what's needed.
[13:41] herman Bergson: Here it was legit...there is wasn't, .but very one idid it
[13:41] Mick Nerido: China has an interesting mix of Capitalism and State control
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: So, what would be the ideal government?
[13:41] oola Neruda: philosopher king?
[13:41] herman Bergson: Let's wayt with that question for later Misty
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: technically it isn't supposed to be legit here either, they just adjust laws and such to continuously advantage themselves
[13:42] oola Neruda: yes druth
[13:42] Mistyowl Warrhol: "pouting" Ok.. LOL
[13:42] Farv Hallison: The problem is not state control, but control by multinational corporations…..they created the laws that they hid behind
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: i guess so
[13:43] oola Neruda: think superpac
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aa yes, the laws are made so they can use everyone for their own profits only
[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): points at Farv. What he said.
[13:43] herman Bergson: when a multinational 'threatens ' a government to raise gas prizes for instance...I think they do that
[13:43] Farv Hallison: they created the idea that the purpose of the state is to protect property
[13:43] Mistyowl Warrhol: The superpac is very much like what Ann predicted and it is life and well.
[13:44] druth Vlodovic: the problem as I see it is that the purpose of the system is no longer the good of the society, however you conceive it, but the advantage of a small few who do not feel dependent on that system
[13:44] Mick Nerido: Does any one here own stock in a corporation?
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: If i say like this, before companies and banks was for the customers
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: now we are for them instead
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the other way around
[13:44] herman Bergson: That is exactly the problem Druth
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: to fill their wallets
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: their
[13:45] herman Bergson: I am not sure but it was Rand who invented the expression "to make money"
[13:45] druth Vlodovic: the funniest thing is to meet a rich "anarchist" they simply assume that their power and welath is not dependent on the social-economic system that created it
[13:46] herman Bergson: so we live in a world where the highest goal is to make money
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes "born with silver spoon in the mouth"
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:47] Farv Hallison: If we are just material objects there is no external morality.
[13:47] oola Neruda: strange that a lot of "conservative christians"... whose goals i would expect to be alturistic... are republicans and tea party members...
[13:47] oola Neruda: it seems contradictory
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: they seem to think they are born with some special ability that make them wealthy and worh mych more then others because of that
[13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): or materialism is the morality
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: The greatest asset a company has it the loyalty of their employees.. when they lose that, they lose all in the end.
[13:47] Mert Dexing: You can blame that on the "prosperity gospel" Bejiita
[13:47] herman Bergson: Interesting observation oola
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hmm
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: I've seen companies deliberately attempt to break employees of their morale and loyalty
[13:48] oola Neruda: materialism:...this world is (not) my home
[13:48] Mert Dexing: It's an evangelical Christian belief that God gives wealth to his ardent followers
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: the more pressure you put on the employees the less they ask for,
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: also shit runs downhill ;-/
[13:48] oola Neruda: i disagree mert
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats nasty for sure
[13:48] oola Neruda: blessings do not have to mean wealth
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: heard such stories indeed
[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have heard that the lower workers suffer the most stress
[13:49] Mick Nerido: So companies fire the 10% lowest performers each year!
[13:49] Mistyowl Warrhol: Oola, makes a good point.. but it is not true Christians. it is greedy ones, who wrap themselves in a cloak of religion..
[13:49] Farv Hallison: water runs down hill, too.
[13:49] Mert Dexing: But, when it comes to super-wealthy Christians, it's how they interpret it
[13:49] oola Neruda: yes Mert...agree
[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Like 'Champagne Socialists' too
[13:50] herman Bergson: INteresting to bring in christianity combined with social politics....
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: indeed thats how they think
[13:50] herman Bergson: not a popular mix in the US I guess...
[13:50] herman Bergson: Can they spell the word Samaritan?
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: As the guy said, when they bring Religion into politics, it is never about religion.. it is all politics.
[13:51] oola Neruda: for some people... they make the economy the issue... for other people they talk about hot item controversial social issues...as if that is what they really were concerned with
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes religion is about mostly to gain yourself and create misery for the others
[13:51] herman Bergson: lol Bejiita!
[13:51] Farv Hallison: They waited in Colorado for the self-destructive people to kill themselves off, They survived
[13:51] herman Bergson (from dutch): Bejiita lol!
[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): People can bend religious beliefs to support anything
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: if not with war and killing so with greed
[13:51] Mick Nerido: God is on our side say the religious all over the world
[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think religion is about control.
[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Mick
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: religion is killing this world
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: everything spins out of control
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: religion is about human desire for spirituality corrupted into a political tool
[13:52] herman Bergson: If you recall my previous project you could put a big question mark by religion....
[13:52] herman Bergson: it is a social phenomenon...yes...
[13:52] Mistyowl Warrhol: I disagree.. it is not religion.. but the use of religion for evil means, that is the problem. :-)
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: the funny thing is that when it goes bad the "politicians" can just blame the spirituality they corrupted
[13:53] herman Bergson: of course it is Misty
[13:53] oola Neruda: Nietzsche did not like religion in general...but he had deep respect for the devout people who truely followed Christ's example and instruction
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes religion is one thing but where does the original scripts say we should just think about ourself
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: kill homosexuals
[13:53] oola Neruda: there are honest people out there trying to do the right thing
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and start bloody wars everywhere
[13:53] herman Bergson: yes oola....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i dont think either the bible or koran says that
[13:54] druth Vlodovic: it's there in various spots
[13:54] Mick Nerido: Jesus would be killed again if he reappeared, that is the sad lesson
[13:54] druth Vlodovic: god himself commonly engaged in genocide
[13:54] herman Bergson: well. my friends....
[13:54] herman Bergson: we stared with Atlas Shrugged....
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Jesus and the Old Testament are totally different things
[13:54] Mistyowl Warrhol: A true person of faith is too busy doing good.. those ppl are few and far between.
[13:54] oola Neruda: yes Merlin
[13:54] oola Neruda: totally different
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your enthousiastic participation.....
[13:55] Mick Nerido: Excellent class
[13:55] herman Bergson: this is only the third lecture in this series... ㋡
[13:55] druth Vlodovic: I wonder, how much nihilism is involved in the current trend to allow everything to go to hell except your own wealth
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: this gets more and more interesting
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:56] Mert Dexing: Thank you professor
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all
[13:56] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you!
[13:56] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): that's a lot to think about..
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: and one that is very involved. Please everyone, keep the USA in your thoughts. today is our Super Tues.. we see who is the Repu.. candiate for Prez. LOL
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: capitalists seeing themselves in ayn rands godlike "atlas'" lol
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all
[13:57] Mert Dexing: It was nice meeting everyone
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bejiita
[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Bye Bejita
[13:57] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC everyone. til next time :-)
[13:57] druth Vlodovic: cya all, have fun
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight everyone
[[13:58] herman Bergson: Well Mert?
[13:58] herman Bergson: What do you think?
[13:58] Mert Dexing: Well, I keep wondering if there isn't some merit to Rand
[13:59] Mert Dexing: Maybe there is a point where selfishness is good
[13:59] Mert Dexing: I'd like to say that is always isn't
[13:59] herman Bergson: you may not believe it...
[13:59] Mistyowl Warrhol: There is a difference is being selfish and taking care of self.. Hard lesson I had to learn.
[14:00] herman Bergson: but Rand is the auctor spiritualis of the present financial crisis...
[14:00] herman Bergson: Not s e personally....
[14:00] herman Bergson: but through her disciples like Greenspan, Friedman and Hayek
[14:00] Mert Dexing: Imagine though if we had a big-wig oil Tycoon here
[14:01] herman Bergson: Greenspan was FED president till 2006!
[14:01] Mert Dexing: Wouldn't he or she be able to offer some kind of compelling argument?

385: The Utopia of the Free Market - introducing Selfisness

When Ayn Rand wrote her book "Atlas Shrugged" she was convinced that Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses)

is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

This was what Descartes thought too, but like Rand he hadn't the faintest idea what the future would reveal about the human being and his brain.

They both had no idea about our insights in neurology, neurobiology, evolutionary psychology, neurophilosophy or the modern ideas about consciousness and the mind, as I have presented to you in my project "The Mystery of the Brain".

If according to Ayn Rand reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears, then there are a number of plain facts which contradict her interpretation of reality and the mind.

The most obvious error is her idea that reason is the basic means of survival. When I discussed the basic emotions like fear, joy, grief, anger, we learnt that these emotions were related to the amygdala and the limbic system in the brain.

Emotions that control our behavior and where reason is involved only afterwards. Yes we know the utopian individuals who don't know fear at all, because of their superb reason. The most famous one is probably Mr. Spock from Startrek.

Take for instance this quote from "Atlas Shrugged":
The door of the structure was a straight, (…). Above it, cut in the granite, as the only feature of the building's rectangular austerity, there stood an inscription:

I SWEAR BY MY LIFE AND MY LOVE OF IT THAT I WILL NEVER LIVE FOR THE SAKE OF ANOTHER MAN, NOR ASK ANOTHER MAN TO LIVE FOR MINE.
- end quote -

Ignoring any evolutionary or ethological counter evidence this is the conclusion of the Randian Reason: the moral good is to focus on rational self-interest. Logically, altruism is only the road to self destruction.

As Rand says in her book "The Virtue of Selfisness" (1961) : "Altruism declares that any action taken for the benefit of others is good, and any action taken for one’s own benefit is evil. Thus the beneficiary of an action is the only criterion of moral value—and so long as that beneficiary is anybody other than oneself, anything goes."(…)

"The Objectivist ethics holds that the actor must always be the beneficiary of his action and that man must act for his own rational self-interest. But his right to do so is de­rived from his nature as man and from the function of moral values in human life…"

A typical statement: "…his right to do so is de­rived from his nature as man.." What is the nature of man? Is it a biological organism interacting with its environment, guided by its brain,

or is possessing and using Reason the very nature of man, where this Reason comes to the conclusion, that to survive self-interest, is the only right thing to follow?

All major characters in "Atlas Shrugged" are convinced of this moral principle. When Hank Reardon, steel tycoon, was asked whether he made better steel for railroad tracks to help others to build safer railroads, his answer was "No!"

But then why? And he answered "To make money". What he creates (better steel),he only does for himself and it is his inalienable property.

That he supports society in doing this, is only because he creates employment and produces a good product for the market, but it never will be his goal to produce a product intended to contribute to society.

And this Randianist view of man combined with economics has lead to where we now stand: the main goal of companies is to make money, profit maximization, whether this is for the social good or not.

The immense fraud in the US with selling mortgages to people who eventually (and the financial experts knew it) wouldn't be able to pay, is just the beginning of many other examples.


The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you..... ㋡
[13:25] Farv Hallison: Thank you..... ㋡
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:25] Jaelle Faerye: Thanks Herman
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): This is becoming more interesting than it seemed at first when we talked about economics
[13:25] Sybyle Perdide: thank you
[13:26] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): thank you
[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you merlin....I hope to keep it up
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: another example is how they fool people with these sms loand that people for some reason don't see are so expensive they get just even more snared and that everything is just an evil lure
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that philosophy seems to be the leading stream of thinking for all businesses today
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: sms loans
[13:26] Mick Nerido: People are not born selfish, it is learned behavior?
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I did not like to interrupt but something came to me earlier
[13:26] herman Bergson: No Mick, people are not born selfish at all
[13:26] herman Bergson: People are born as social beings
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): remember that there was much more fraud in those mortgages .... signatures that were not the real thing
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sometimes when people act selflessly they can mess everything up
[13:27] herman Bergson: and yes...in the group you fight for your part of the game...
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: we know that primitive peoples are organized very social
[13:27] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Is that true Herman?
[13:27] herman Bergson: but it doesn't exclude that you are able to share
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Annie...that is a fact....
[13:28] herman Bergson: Even animals show altruistic behavior....
[13:28] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Its just that small children seem to have trouble sharing and have to be encouraged
[13:28] herman Bergson: that is behavior for which you get no reward...
[13:28] herman Bergson: you just do it for the other
[13:28] Mick Nerido: The Quakers are non competive society
[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: isn't it a kind of social Darwinism what Rand tells us?
[13:29] herman Bergson: No Lizzy..she misses the point there completely, I would say
[13:29] herman Bergson: Her view of man is completely outdated,
[13:30] herman Bergson: But her influence is still considerable
[13:30] Mick Nerido: Most games are competitive with winners and losers SL is not, perhaps a better game.
[13:30] herman Bergson: Rand has the simplistic idea that the human being is in essence a rational being
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but SL is not a game, games is about challenge, sl is a 3d social system id say
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:31] herman Bergson: For Rand all is controlled by reason and its method is logic....
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: to meet and have fun with others
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: then there are games inside sl
[13:31] herman Bergson: Just look at the financial markets today....
[13:32] herman Bergson: they behave irrational....just based on believes, expectations
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes id say that
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: short hand thinking to get quick money
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: no long therm at all
[13:32] herman Bergson: thus Rand's ideas demonstrate the Utopia of the Free Market
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Do you know about chain letters Herman?
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Merlin....
[13:33] herman Bergson: A trick as old as I am :-)
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think these economic scams are similar
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Something called Ponzy scheme
[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): not sure how its spelt
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes thet Pyramide construction....
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: also we have the pyramid games
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes, pyramid selling is another
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: the ones at the top get it all the rest nothing at all
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: or rather they loose money instead to the ones at the top
[13:35] herman Bergson: Just greed...no social meaning at all
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Chain letters would work if there was an infinite population
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: its terrible stuff indeed
[13:35] Farv Hallison: It is a trickle up scheme
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): the rely on endless expansion
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Economic Growth bothers me
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): but I am no economist
[13:36] Farv Hallison: our economy depends on endless expansion/
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes farv, that's what I think
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Farv...I am not an economist myself....
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and its impossible
[13:36] Mick Nerido: Remember the Tulip speculative bubble in Holland?
[13:36] herman Bergson: but I wonder....when does the growth end?
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): heard of that
[13:37] herman Bergson: Oh yes...17th century....
[13:37] herman Bergson: the first economic bubble ^_^
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: i see
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well, a song came out of it!
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: is that so?
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Tulips from Amsterdam :P
[13:37] Farv Hallison: growth stops when waste products poison the environment.
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehehe ok i see
[13:38] Mick Nerido: Speculation is a problem still
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: well yes tulips they are known for
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: speculate is not good really you need facts
[13:38] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example how the free market utopia works in this word....
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: or everything can go wrong
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but these gredy bastards seem not to realize that
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: take only the bank collapse 2008
[13:39] herman Bergson: just listen.....plz
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: the entire world stopped
[13:39] herman Bergson: Bejiita
[13:39] herman Bergson: Europe exports a lot of second rate chickenmeat to some african countries....
[13:39] herman Bergson: of course to make a good profit...
[13:40] herman Bergson: they dump it on their markets for low prices ruining the chicken farmers there...
[13:40] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Fowlplay
[13:40] herman Bergson: now...what to do....
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ooh
[13:40] Farv Hallison: haha
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes heard something abot something like that before as well
[13:40] herman Bergson: then the Secretary of the World Trade orginasation Paul Lamy says
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: or similar cases
[13:40] herman Bergson: says
[13:41] herman Bergson: they should make their farming more efficient and more specialized in stead of producing only for the local needs
[13:41] herman Bergson: in other words...
[13:42] herman Bergson: the local farmers who produce for the local market which is self sufficient have to tak eover our model of production....goal...not being self supproting…but making profits
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): idiot!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: Thus we ruin local economies....
[13:43] herman Bergson: We force our economic model...the self interest upon them
[13:43] herman Bergson: THAT is the free market...
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): misty
[13:44] Sybyle Perdide: hi Misty
[13:44] Mistyowl Warrhol: sorry ;-(
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hi Misty
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): missed the whole thing
[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: modern colonialism
[13:44] Mistyowl Warrhol: hugs all :-)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes I find it criminal...
[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Misty
[13:45] Farv Hallison: When industrialized farming can't make a profit they will stop growing food and there will be a world wide hunger.
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are many examples o
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): happening now also in the pharmacy industry
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): shortages of special meds
[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There was a satire on modern european economics and the financial bubble on Tuesday afternoon on BBC Radio4
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/radio/bbc_radio_four/20120228
[13:46] herman Bergson: That may be so Farv, but that doesnt mean they have to invade markets with low prize products disrupting the local economy
[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: I got in on the end, but as to farming.. All the good farm land has been used for urban areas. The land is dead now.
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: the medical companies only see to their own profits, that poor people cant afford it and therefore will die they give no care
[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: we have products from china here too
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): great example of rand
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: AIDS medicine for example
[13:47] Mick Nerido: have to go thanks Heman, everyone...
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ok mick
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡
[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Mick
[13:47] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Mick
[13:47] Farv Hallison: byre Mick
[13:47] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye Mick
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: By Mick, TC :-)
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy....like we import electric bikes form China,though it was invented in the Netherlands
[13:48] herman Bergson: Hard competition there...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: very hard
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: China is the big thing now it seems
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: but there are lot of probs
[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: and dentures as well
[13:48] Mistyowl Warrhol: And who help start the movement to the Chineses? Who can we blame for that?
[13:49] Farv Hallison: We have to prepare for our own local survival by growing our food locally.
[13:49] herman Bergson: what I wanted you to show today is that the basic ideas about man of Ayn Rand are completely outdated and beside the point...
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:49] herman Bergson: actually...utopian....she thinks that the real human being is a Mr.Spock, I guess ㋡
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: i agree, it is not reasonable
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe maybee
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Was Mr Spock selfish?
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: well unfortunatley star trek isn't real
[13:50] herman Bergson: OK...so far so good....
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): emotionless
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: its just one of the best sci fi ever made
[13:50] Farv Hallison: MrSpock was rational.
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Emotionless but not selfish
[13:50] herman Bergson: we'll move on in a next lecture to dismantle the utopia of the free market....
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: that can be interesting
[13:51] herman Bergson: and read your newspapers....search for the examples...
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:51] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Mr Spock could see the benefit in cooperation
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe well i se plenty every day in the news
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:51] Mistyowl Warrhol: The major agree on what is reasonable, but we bow to the power of the rich's version of reason. We need to take back the balance of power.
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: and nmost of them make me mad
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Annie...quite possible....but in Rand's view..sharing is the worst you can do
[13:51] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Yes and that is why she was wrong
[13:52] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): She didn't understand
[13:52] herman Bergson: no she didn't at all at that point....she missed evolutionary insight completely
[13:52] herman Bergson: she was stuck in the old philosophical traditions
[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you next week!
[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:53] herman Bergson: May Ithank you all for you participation.... ㋡
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: really interesting as always Herman
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:53] Mistyowl Warrhol: Hugs Gemma
[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i SHARE my appreciatiion
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[13:53] Mistyowl Warrhol: I can tell my missed a good lecture.
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, Bye every1
[13:54] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Merlin
[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: bye merlin
[13:54] Farv Hallison: and we missed you, MistyOwl.
[13:54] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Perhaps Michael Jordan could be brought in as an example?
[13:55] Farv Hallison: bye Lizzy, you have a nice butt.
[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: lol, ... byee Farv
[13:55] Mistyowl Warrhol: Ty Farv :)
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): When he started to be less selfish , his points tally went down but the Bulls won
[13:55] Sybyle Perdide: good bye
[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar) shrugs
[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: good byee
[13:55] Jaelle Faerye: Bye all
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: waves*
[13:56] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC everyone.. til next time.
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: Sorry for being late, Herman..