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What I try to achieve with my project "The Mystery of the Brain" is to demonstrate where nature ends and philosophical wonder begins.For now, we aren't yet close to that dividing line. I try to show you how emotions are not special ingredients of an abstract mind, but clear biological processes.Being biological it means, that our emotions are the result of a long evolutionary process. And last lecture it was Joy and Happiness, today it is Grief and Sadness.Like with joy and happiness, sadness is not so much an emotion as happiness, but more a mood, mainly colored by the emotion of grief.If there already was little scientific research on the emotion of joy, grief is far more unpopular as subject of scientific research.It is a bit odd, because we would love to know how to escape from grief, which even may develop into depression. Fortunately the latter gets more scientific attention.But let's focus on grief. Grief arises after a loss or a disappointment, but only when one is not itself culpable.If you think you are culpable for causing the grief, an other emotion kicks in: guilt. We'll discuss that emotion later.If somebody else is responsible for your grief, then it also isn't really grief you will experience, but rather anger or indignation.Guilt and aggression can easily mix with the emotion of grief, but there is a difference. There even is a functional difference. I'll get to that later.From a biological point of view our main question is: What is the evolutionary advantage of experiencing grief?? Wouldn't it have been better if evolution had discarded of the emotion of grief? How can grief have contributed to the evolution of the homo sapiens?Let us take as an example a clear case of real grief: the loss of a dear friend or a close relative. What is the effect of grief on us? Threefold: cognitive, physical and social.In the first place cognitively we can observe that grief drains our energy. The body even reduces its energy level. We retreat into ourself, look inward. We seem to have lost interest in the outer world.But this has a positive side: we re-examine our goals (in life). Think about how life can make sense by confronting you with death. Looking inward protects us for more grief. For instance the confrontation with personal things of the deceased.An other example: 40.000 years ago one of our ancestors, a male is rejected for the third time by a female he feels strongly attracted to. He is in deep grief….Sits apart from the group, but in his mind the grief brings him to re-evaluate his situation. Should he choose other company for the hunt? Should he concentrate on his personal skills and perfect these? His grief leads to a new perspective.So much about the cognitive effect. Physically the grieving person feels inactive, weak and washed-out. Even the metabolism slows down. The body is saving energy.On the other hand, it is a known fact now that physical activity is a good antidote against grief. It is called "Running Therapy", physical action prescribed to depressive people. It works.But nature has its own therapy in normal cases of grief…. often grief alternates with anger, which creates an energy boost in the body again. You feel angry because it is so unjust, that he died so young. Well you know the examples…..Finally the social meaning of grief: it brings people together. It strengthens the social bonds. The death of a member of the tribe is always embedded in a ritual and ceremony for the group.So, from an evolutionary point of view grief is a real positive emotion: it brings people to reconsider the goals in their life, the meaning of life, think of new perspectives and it works as a socially binding force in the group.
The Discussion[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you...:)[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so you are saying grief is biological only??[13:26] herman Bergson: If you have any questionor remarks...[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what did i miss[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma..it is a part of our system...we cant get rid of it....it is in our genes...[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok[13:26] herman Bergson: all over the world ..all people experience grief[13:26] Henk Honi: sometimes you have no time to grieve[13:27] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): but what you say sounds so positive.. cannot be[13:27] Kyra Neutron: you have time to sleep..dont you ?[13:27] herman Bergson: that is just a matter of circumstances Henk..[13:27] Henk Honi: yes[13:27] Henk Honi: can therefore influence[13:28] Merel Heron: it is good to hear professor that grief or depression can have a good reaction on running actions[13:28] Mick Nerido: Grief bring us back to harsh reality it make us more circumspect[13:28] herman Bergson: main point here is that grief is a basic emotion,,general to the homo sapiens…to all humans on earth so to speak[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true[13:28] herman Bergson: Oh Merel....[13:28] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that must be true[13:29] herman Bergson: Physical excercise is good for the body but also good for the brain....[13:29] Henk Honi: therefore a kind of protection?[13:29] Henk Honi: that can help us[13:29] Kyra Neutron: grief may lead you to commit suicide too...[13:30] herman Bergson: People with depression..which is a deep form of grief are really helped by getting into physical action…[13:30] Merel Heron: mmmmm[13:30] Mick Nerido: If it leads to suicide its evolution dead end[13:31] Kyra Neutron: idk Henk..but i wouldnt feel the helping hand of angels..when i loose my kid...and run into grief...[13:31] Kyra Neutron: lovely antichrist..[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Mick...is weird end of an organism...to delete itself...[13:31] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed[13:32] Kyra Neutron: what universe wins from grief herman?[13:32] Mick Nerido: If you can't handle grief you don't survive[13:32] herman Bergson: The only help for grief is in yourself and in the support of the group around you[13:32] Kyra Neutron: but..you dont have to survive...[13:32] Kyra Neutron: it is your wish to survive..[13:32] herman Bergson: no...Kyra..survival isn't an obligation....[13:33] Kyra Neutron: you sure herman ?[13:33] herman Bergson: oh yes...[13:33] herman Bergson: To be alive is just a coincidence[13:33] herman Bergson: was because your parents once made love[13:33] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:33] Kyra Neutron: lovely biology..[13:34] herman Bergson: yes..there you are!!!!!..[13:34] Kyra Neutron: hahahah[13:34] Doodus Moose: it's good to know my parents got along _once_[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)[13:34] Kyra Neutron: sticks out tongue to Mick...[13:34] herman Bergson: lol...ok Doodus..[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:34] Kyra Neutron: see..the prof says survival is not needed..[13:34] Kyra Neutron: silly boy...[13:34] herman Bergson: no no..that is NOT what I said...[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hahah[13:35] herman Bergson: Survival is the basic drive of the organism..any organism...[13:35] Kyra Neutron: trying to keep laugh in a low decibel[13:35] herman Bergson: that there are some members of the group that want to end their lives deliberately...well...[13:35] Mick Nerido: Suicide is nature's way of saying you don't count[13:35] Kyra Neutron: no mick[13:36] herman Bergson: No mick…..[13:36] Henk Honi: Can you influence yourself well, sadness?[13:36] Kyra Neutron: suicide is the result...[13:36] Kyra Neutron: that at the point..you cant bare more pain[13:36] Kyra Neutron: and loss of kid..is one of them[13:36] Henk Honi: yes it are[13:36] Merel Heron: i really think that depression is a illness[13:36] Kyra Neutron: it does?[13:37] Henk Honi: yes i think to[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): loss of anyone close is grief most of the time[13:37] Merel Heron: i have read the book of Dick Swaab[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes depression is even a brain illness Merel[13:37] Kyra Neutron: and guilt..[13:37] Kyra Neutron: that will trigger it[13:37] Henk Honi: yes[13:37] Kyra Neutron: which herman politely avoided to tell us[13:37] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:37] Merel Heron: and i know now that it isn't easy to cure this feeling of total sadness[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we should know taht by now[13:37] herman Bergson smiles at Kyra[13:37] Mick Nerido: If grief is too much it is the answer for the individual, but it is a taboo because it is bad for the race[13:38] herman Bergson: Well...in general....[13:38] Kyra Neutron: wigs her invisible taily happily..to be approved at final[13:39] herman Bergson: a common saying is that you learn and grow by the suffering you experience....the pains and troubles[13:39] herman Bergson: the grief you have to endure...[13:39] Doodus Moose: YES - because this is the only time you deal with such things[13:39] Merel Heron: pppffff that is something to say ![13:39] Mick Nerido: We are all here because our ancesters could get over grief and move on[13:39] Henk Honi: so maybe that will help you, some[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i would agree with that![13:40] Kyra Neutron: hmmm..no..we are here coz they had at least one clever woman..to do things right..[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there has always been grief if it is part of genetic makeup[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....the behavioral system of grief, the emotion, was favorable for survival, it seems...[13:41] Mick Nerido: Religion deals with grief, some people only turn to religion in grief[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Gemma....like Joy , grief is a basic emioton of the organism....[13:42] herman Bergson: religion is the cultural sauce on grief...:-)[13:42] Merel Heron: but grief makes you also very lonely[13:42] Mick Nerido: All clutures have rituals for dealing with grief[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Merel....griefs turns your mind inward....you close up for others[13:42] Kyra Neutron: looks surprised..and wanders..wasnt religion part of the reason to grief?[13:42] Henk Honi: grief can be so empowering?[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Henk....[13:43] Henk Honi: make you stonger[13:43] Henk Honi: yes maby[13:43] herman Bergson: The rituals are for instance ways to turn grief into an empowering feeling...[13:43] Henk Honi: maby hard to?[13:43] herman Bergson: for instance to celebrate that the deceased has passed over to a better life[13:44] Henk Honi: yes i think it can[13:44] Kyra Neutron: yes..and we do believe it? so it loweres our pain ?[13:44] herman Bergson: so let's support him on his way to the better world....[13:44] Henk Honi: we trry[13:44] herman Bergson: put a coin in his mouth to pay Charon for instance[13:44] Mick Nerido: Knowing that others have felt as you do strenthens bonds good for the group[13:44] herman Bergson: or like the Pharaos in Egypte...give him all he needs on his journey to the afterlife[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes that was what I mentioned Mick....the social effect of sharing with the grieving people[13:45] Kyra Neutron: and put some beauty housemaids into the bag too..[13:45] Mick Nerido: Right[13:46] herman Bergson: 72 virgins even Kyra...![13:46] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh brother[13:46] Mick Nerido: Him too[13:46] herman Bergson: I wonder what a muslim woman gets when she dies???[13:46] Kyra Neutron: oh man...[13:46] Kyra Neutron: many many nuri's[13:46] herman Bergson: 72 stuts?[13:47] Kyra Neutron: virgin males..[13:47] Mick Nerido: She gets to take off her berka[13:47] Doodus Moose: ....virgin males....[13:47] Kyra Neutron: just for that it worths to kick the ass of greek gods[13:47] herman Bergson: Hmmm..let's not go into detail here ^_^[13:47] Merel Heron whispers: do they exist virgin males ?[13:47] Kyra Neutron: hahahha oks[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hahah[13:47] Henk Honi: :))[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: *Ggg*[13:48] Kyra Neutron: thats why it is called heaven Merel..[13:48] Henk Honi: yes i think,[13:48] Kyra Neutron: you believe anything given..[13:48] herman Bergson: I think. that the idea is clear....[13:48] Merel Heron: ahaaaa[13:48] herman Bergson: grief is a basic emotion....a drive to set a series of behaviors in action...[13:49] Henk Honi: it's so different for everyone[13:49] Henk Honi: i think[13:49] Mick Nerido: I thing the mind remember good things easier than sad things, why?[13:49] herman Bergson: In fact to solve the problem.....which is the feeling of sadness...[13:50] Bejiita Imako: because u dont wanna feel sad but happy and thus rather remember happy things[13:50] herman Bergson: Maybe that is even a physiological matter Mick...[13:50] Kyra Neutron: it is subjective i believe..[13:50] herman Bergson: good things...feeling good is related to the production of dopamine in the brain....[13:50] Merel Heron: we all want to be happy[13:50] herman Bergson: we are addicted to that[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:50] Bejiita Imako: i dont wanna feel sad but happy[13:50] herman Bergson: so remembering good things produces the dopamine again[13:50] Bejiita Imako: as happy I can[13:51] Merel Heron: but sadness make you wonder what is life about[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Merel....very true....[13:51] herman Bergson: and the answer can lead to a good feeling….[13:51] herman Bergson: or the bad feeling that life makes no sense at all...[13:51] Henk Honi: makes life intense, grief?[13:52] Henk Honi: ups and downs[13:52] herman Bergson: which in fact is a good feeling too...saves you a lot of pondering about life[13:52] Doodus Moose: yes Henk - gives life dimension[13:52] Henk Honi: yes i think to[13:52] herman Bergson: Well..it is a point..that especially christianity sees grief as a positive feeling..[13:52] Kyra Neutron: herman..you'll make us believe..that everything that is done for good...[13:53] Doodus Moose: [13:53] herman Bergson: what do you mean Kyra[13:53] Kyra Neutron: grief is a good aim..[13:53] Henk Honi: they collide with eachother sadness and happiness?[13:53] Kyra Neutron: sadness..is a good aim..[13:54] Kyra Neutron: even …we'll trigger the despair for good...[13:54] Kyra Neutron: hey..isnt there any badness ?[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): crash[13:54] herman Bergson: well....through the many centuries of evolution the central nervous system has developed the emotion of grief...[13:54] Henk Honi: Yes welcom back[13:54] Bejiita Imako: wb[13:54] Merel Heron: songs are often about sad feelings[13:55] herman Bergson: that is..a behavioral system to deal with for instance the loss of a relative...a member of the tribe...[13:55] Kyra Neutron: mr. evolution has its motive for itself..and we know we are griefing for good ?[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman the donation book is not working[13:55] Merel Heron: may be the sad feeling is stronger then the happy feelings ?[13:55] Mick Nerido: Thanks I must go[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: theoretically it is so logical: -) however practically, it looks often differently ;-) see you all @ Thursday - ty herman & Class!!![13:55] herman Bergson: sorry...[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will try to be here thursday[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye :-)[13:55] Bejiita Imako: bye Mick[[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: bye bergfrau - bye mick[13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): time to go now[13:56] Kyra Neutron: good night all..and forgive an ass demon..[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ok cu gemma[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: bye gemma[13:56] Kyra Neutron: it was a nice class[13:56] herman Bergson: Ok....time to dismiss class....:-)[13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaa interesting again[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:56] herman Bergson: dont feel sad about it....we'll be back on Thusrday ^_^[13:57] Doodus Moose: :-)[13:57] Bejiita Imako: yes ㋡[13:57] Bejiita Imako: cu all tehn[13:57] Bejiita Imako: then[13:57] Kyra Neutron: salutes[13:57] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:57] Henk Honi: bye all[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: bye all[13:57] Merel Heron: thank you again prof Bergson .[13:57] Merel Heron: bye bye
Evolution created emotions as means to improve the chances on survival and procreation. Here we focus on the evolutionary development of emotions.As the philosophical and scientific literature shows, we can discuss forever about the classification of emotionsDaniel Goleman, psychologist and writer of the book on the social IQ once had a talk with the Dalai Lama and learnt that buddhism recognized tenthousands of destructive emotions.I think we better stick to a more simple classification as formulated by Paul Ekman(1934 -…), psychologist.Against the view of many anthropologists, including Margaret Mead, Ekman found that facial expressions of emotion are not culturally specific, but identical for different cultures. This fact advocated the idea that facial expressions, as Darwin once asserted, are biologically determined.A generally accepted classification is: basic emotions and complex emotion.The complex emotions are more culturally driven and therefor evolutionary more recent.An emotion like envy, for instance, you can't have on your own. There must be someone else to be envious of, while fear and joy can be individually experienced.We'll follow the classification of Ekman and regard fear, joy, grief, anger, marvel and disgust as basic emotions. They come with the facial expressions, which showed to be universal.At New Year we often wish each other a good health for the coming year, but is that our ultimate goal of happiness?When you think it over, it becomes clear that we mainly want to be healthy because then we are closer to happiness and to knowing joy in life.So, joy and happiness are more likely our ultimate goals than health. In the "Declaration of Independence " of the USA it is stated literally that we are endowed "with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."This is an interesting statement, for to see the pursuit of happiness as a human right, implies at least that it makes sense to pursue happiness.Does it also promise us, that when we pursue happiness, we also will achieve it? Do we believe that today? If so, where does this idea come from, because a lot of people still believe that real happiness will only be found in the afterlife.It was during the Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th century, that the Idea emerged that a human being can achieve happiness in THIS earthly life.Happiness now was called the normal condition of man, not a gift of God or a twist of fate, but something that man is entitled to by nature, something, which could be achieved by everyone.Joy and happiness can be regarded as the most positive emotions and yet there is little scientific literature about them.One reason is of course, that the concept of happiness is pretty vague and no one has as yet found a satisfactory definition for joy and happiness.Let's not wind up in an endless debate about the definition of happiness and joy for the moment, but listen to a philosopher of the enlightenment, John Locke (1632 -1704).Some of you may think, ok…. joy is indeed an emotion, but happiness is more a state of being. True, joy is more a part of happiness.According to Locke happiness consisted of a combination of joys. But what combination of how many joys? At least Locke is right, that experiencing joy, increases the chance to feel happy.Next lecture we'll go into detail and explain how evolution wired our brain with the possibility to experience joy and happiness and what it means evolutionary, that happiness is our goal in life.The Discussion[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you...and be happy ^_^[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:22] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:22] Doodus Moose: a baby smiles when you give it attention - is that joy or programming?[13:23] herman Bergson: THAT is a real special thing doodus...[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): heard that question before...[13:23] herman Bergson: It shows that joy is innate...[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: facial expression.... inborn[13:23] herman Bergson: indeed Baldur...[13:23] Doodus Moose: perhaps a part of innocence?[13:23] herman Bergson: I dont see the connection Doodus[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: lol joy -happinesss and now innocense?[13:24] Mick Nerido: Is laughter Joy or happiness?[13:24] herman Bergson: innocence is a pretty religious concept[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: we will get lost in words...[13:24] herman Bergson: Laughter is joy Mick[13:24] Doodus Moose: innocence as opposed to the complexities we learn[13:24] Doodus Moose: sarcasm, pity, etc[13:24] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:24] Bejiita Imako: now i feel a sudden joy[13:25] herman Bergson: I think you should keep in mind the disticntion between basic and complex emotions[13:25] Bejiita Imako: cause LHC have broken a NEW WORLD RECORD[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: a child ripping of the legs of a spider..sarcasm or innocense?[13:25] Bejiita Imako: highest power ever now [13:25] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:25] herman Bergson: what you are refering to Doodus are complex emotions...social feelings[13:25] Mick Nerido: People laugh differently so do they experience joy differently?[13:26] Blackrose Baroque: [13:24] BALDUR Joubert: a child ripping of the legs of a spider..sarcasm or innocnese? how can you find any joy or hapiness in this?[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: a child could...[13:26] herman Bergson: It is even more complex Mick....some people shed tears while they are infact absolutely happy[13:26] Mick Nerido: tears of joy[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ah yes that can also be a reaction[13:27] Doodus Moose: that was my father as he experienced music - his only demonstrated emotion[13:27] Blackrose Baroque: yes my mommy always cries when she is so happy[13:27] Bejiita Imako: i've experienced that too[13:27] Mick Nerido: Me also[13:27] herman Bergson: Interesting point Doodus..I'll get to that in the next lecture[13:27] Bejiita Imako: you laugh and cry at same time[13:27] Bejiita Imako: really overwhelming feeling[13:28] Mick Nerido: Laughter is involentary but we laugh at differn things at different timmes in our lives does joy evolve?[13:29] herman Bergson: You can write a book about laughter..[13:29] herman Bergson: Aristotle did...[13:30] herman Bergson: and in The name of the Rose by Umberto Ecco it ended up in the destruction of a monestery by fire...^_^[13:30] Bejiita Imako: I laugh a lot cause feels really nice[13:30] Bejiita Imako: and when i feel really good i can let it go until i rol on the floor laughing[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: aristoteles did' ? didn't it but in the name of the rose:)?[13:30] Bejiita Imako: really nice feeling[13:30] Mick Nerido: Not copies left?[13:31] Bejiita Imako: happens kind of often when i'm here in sl[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: sena connery couldn't save it......lol[13:31] herman Bergson: No he couldnt Baldur :-(([13:31] BALDUR Joubert: laughter lost for us.......[13:32] herman Bergson: By the way..watched La guerre du feu last night Baldur...[13:32] herman Bergson: but that among us[13:32] herman Bergson: ok...[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: smile ok we'll talk that over one day:)[13:32] herman Bergson: what it is all about ia how joy and happiness are wired in the brain by evolution...[13:33] Doodus Moose: perhaps building on reward and avoidance (hippocampus)?[13:33] herman Bergson: next lecture I'll give you the evolutionary picture...[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: help....[13:34] Bejiita Imako: oki[13:34] herman Bergson: Is there a doctor in the room...Baldur is calling for help!!![13:34] BALDUR Joubert: please make a clear distinction between evolution and development of brain[13:34] Mick Nerido: Why did it say presuit of rather than the attainment of happiness?[13:34] herman Bergson: oh yes Baldur...[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: one genetics the other physical...[13:34] Doodus Moose: a pursuit does not guarantee attainment[13:35] herman Bergson: No Doodus...[13:35] herman Bergson: that is the mystery of happiness…[13:35] Mick Nerido: it could have been written the right to happiness[13:35] herman Bergson: are you happy.....??? they alway yell...and the public answers YYYEEEAAAAHHHH[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: happiness is in the pursuit say some wise men:)[13:36] Doodus Moose: :-)[13:36] herman Bergson: I read a book about the history of happiness...the idea of happiness to be exact...[13:36] herman Bergson: and after reading the book I wasn't happy at all..kind of disappointed actually ^_^[13:37] Mick Nerido: No happy ending[13:37] herman Bergson: 450 pages for no happiness :-)[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: gone with the wind lol[13:37] herman Bergson: no happy ending indeed Mick :-)[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:38] Mick Nerido: I bet the author was happy when he finished the book[13:38] Bejiita Imako: that sound not good, if its about happiness it should make u happy at least[13:38] Blackrose Baroque: lol Mick[13:38] herman Bergson: lol I guess he was...[13:38] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:38] Anja Tigerfish: Hihihi[13:39] herman Bergson: Well..let's wait till next lecture...maybe afterwards you might feel a little happier then[13:39] herman Bergson: So..thank you all for your participation...[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: just one more question..[13:39] herman Bergson: See you next Thursday in our search for happiness...:-)[13:40] herman Bergson: Sure Baldur go ahead[13:40] Bejiita Imako: sounds nice Herman ㋡[13:40] BALDUR Joubert: you talked about cutural and ..wait....[13:40] herman Bergson: I wait...:-)[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: sorry, lol i ave to scroll back..[13:41] herman Bergson: we all wait ^_^ ...[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: basic..lol..[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:41] herman Bergson: yes basic and complex emotions...[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: basic ..what do you mean with basic in contrast to cultural...[13:42] Blackrose Baroque: dripping icecream on my skirt..[13:42] herman Bergson: Blackrose..plz!!! Watch out[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...[13:42] Blackrose Baroque: sorry sir:)[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: someone give blackrose a kleenex?[13:42] herman Bergson: important point Baldur...[13:42] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:43] Bejiita Imako: u should eat it BEFORE it melts then[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:43] Blackrose Baroque: ow..yes?[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but thats tricky and u dont wanna rush something tasty[13:43] herman Bergson: The basic idea about emotions in an evolutionary sense is that they helped us to survive and procreate..[13:43] Blackrose Baroque: this is my happiness now..my icecream[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: ok.. survival codes[13:43] herman Bergson: yes...[13:43] Bejiita Imako: which also use to leave my clothes in a mess afterwards, at least if its a warm day[13:43] Bejiita Imako: heh[13:44] Doodus Moose: hence the line from the movie "what do i see in him - he makes me laugh".[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: especially in social groups[13:44] herman Bergson: emotions were the mechanisms that made social behavior possible...[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: ok..agree[13:44] herman Bergson: the basic emotions like fear and joy can be experiences individually...[13:44] herman Bergson: with them you can survive...[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: hm...[13:45] herman Bergson: the complex emotions are culturally determined in the sense that you need the other for that ..[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: so microbes have fear anr joy?¨[13:45] herman Bergson: envy is such an emotion..[13:45] herman Bergson: you only can be envious of someone else...[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: i mean simple organisms live much longer than complex ones...[13:46] herman Bergson: sexual jealousy is such an emotion...[13:46] herman Bergson: that is not true Baldur...so far so good...we are still here![13:46] BALDUR Joubert: you said individulal experience.. that would mean independent of a social environment[13:47] herman Bergson: and I claim that we are the most complex ones on this planet ^_^[13:47] Blackrose Baroque: i think it's important to laugh..it makes a bond between people..[13:47] Blackrose Baroque: when you smile...at some one..you get a smile back[13:47] herman Bergson: yes...I can experience fear myself...is not related to others[13:47] Mick Nerido: People joke a lot when they are afraid[13:48] herman Bergson: we will get to that in the next lecture Blackrose![13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes and when someone laygh u start laughing as well[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: exist longer smile sorry.. i hat to be imprecise:)[13:48] Bejiita Imako: just the sound make u do that[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: smile but i think we have to get deeper into lets laugh theories lol[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: in class..[13:48] Doodus Moose: what proceses causes another to sneeze once someone else sneezes?[13:48] Doodus Moose: (just wondering)[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: hayfever dood?[13:49] Doodus Moose: or yawning[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hmm that i have never experienced howeever[13:49] Blackrose Baroque: nome either[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yawning however[13:49] herman Bergson: it is a common phenomenon Doodus...mimicry it is called I think...[13:49] BALDUR Joubert: oh you sneeze when you yawn' '[13:49] Mick Nerido: I have to walk my dogs bye...[13:49] Blackrose Baroque: bye Mick[13:49] BALDUR Joubert: some fart ..grin.. sorry but true..lol[13:50] Bejiita Imako: when everyone around you seem to be bored and tired u get also the same way, cause thats the general feeling in the place sort of[13:50] herman Bergson: copying the gestures of other to show social connection[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: mirror neurons.. smile they pop up all the time:)[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i was logged out[13:50] herman Bergson: Are you ok Gemma???[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ☆*¨¨*:• I'm Back! What'd I Miss?? •:*¨¨*☆[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Hey![13:50] Bejiita Imako: wb Gemma[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: fun -joy and happiness gemma:)[13:51] Blackrose Baroque: you missed a lot of joy Gemma[13:51] Anja Tigerfish: -WB[13:51] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:51] herman Bergson: ok..I think next lecture will be fun then....:-)[13:52] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i wil have to read the blog of this one[13:52] Doodus Moose: time to eat over here - thanks everyone!![13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all....[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cu Doodus ㋡[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:52] Ciska Riverstone: Thank You herman - thanx everyone - enjoy :-)[13:52] Bejiita Imako: oki[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cu next time then ㋡[13:52] Bejiita Imako: and some of u in a while[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nice as usual this[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:53] Blackrose Baroque: thank you sir for the lecture[13:53] herman Bergson: My pleasure Blackrose[13:53] Blackrose Baroque: bye bye
In January 2010 we completed our project on Modern Theories of Ethics and in the concluding lecture I said this:-quoteMan is a creature who by nature has values. There are things,states of affairs, and activities that he directly enjoys, prizes, or values. Moral choices and decisions arise only in those situations in which there are competing desires or a conflict of values. The problem that a man then confronts is to decide what he really wants and what course of action he ought to pursue. He cannot appeal to his immediate values to resolve the situation; he must evaluate or appraise the situation and the different courses of action open to him. This process of deliberation that culminates in a decision to act is what Dewey (1859 - 1952) calls “valuation.” But how do we engage in this process of valuation?For this we need to accept a few basic assumptions. The first one is that as a species humans are basically the same all world with regard to physiology and neurobiology.The second assumption is that the quality of life is achieved by reason and intelligence, These qualities give us the power of rationality, which means that education is essential and learning a lifetime activity.The third assumption is what we find in virtue ethics which presupposes reasonable , positive qualities in man based on finding the mean between extremes, the virtue, or what Dewey would describe as the interaction of the organism with his environment.In this interaction, which has an evolutionary origin, we learn to live together and are able to realize all virtues in ourselves.I don't mean to say that we eventually will become all Saints, but this interaction with our environment began when man discovered himself.And I think that we are maybe still at the beginning of this process, but if we are willing to accept that the human being is a learning and adaptive organism we will follow our virtues, guided by reason more and more to improve the human condition.- end quoteThis was the philosophical aproach and rationality is mentioned as the tool to find solutions. Now it is fascinating, that I last lecture said more or less the same thing, but then from a biological perspective.Rationality is indeed the most important tool of survival of the homo sapiens, but I put it in a larger context now: the context of our total being, in which rationality is just one member in the orchestra of survival mechanisms.In evolution emotions, as defined in the former lecture as a driving force, which as an orchestra conductor ensures, that a number of specific behavioral systems run in parallel and work together to solve an acute problem, were prior to the emergence of rationality.Today we change the face of the earth. A new situation for a lot of species, with which they can not cope. They don't come up with new solutions. They just get extinct. Only the lucky ones succeed to adapt now and then.And there is the difference: the development of the prefrontal cortex has enabled homo sapiens to cope with new situations by inventing new solutions.What fascinates me the most is, that you can see how today a philosophical approach converges with our present mainly biological approach of homo sapiens.The fundamental question is, is a universal ethics possible, a global society? Is that what we see happening in this world, when we see in 1989 the collapse of the communist system and today the collapse of dictatorial systems in the arabic countries?Is what we call democracy an evolutionary result of the continuing interaction between the brain and its environment?It is not so, that with our democracy we live in an ideal world, but is it said too much, if I say that at least compared to other places in the world this is a better place to be.A place that allows us to life more freely with our basic emotions as (the lack of) fear, joy, grief, anger, marvel, disgust. Behavioral mechanisms wired deeply in our brain, that brought us through evolution, where we now are?In our next lectures we'll continue our research of homo sapiens and his emotions from this biological perspective. So…. see you next lecture again.The Discussion[13:29] herman Bergson: Thank you ㋡[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:30] Anja Tigerfish: ㋡[13:30] Anja Tigerfish: ㋡[13:30] herman Bergson: A nice sound of silence ^_^[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very nice[13:30] Bejiita Imako: aaa[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thinking it through[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes ..so I did ^_^[13:31] herman Bergson: Something IS going on in this world.....[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed[13:31] herman Bergson: I forgot to mention china![13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes[13:31] Mick Nerido: The internet and closer communication is speeding up that change[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): A global society meaning one that functions for the good of the majority (democracy) is virtuous and moral only for the majority[13:32] herman Bergson: Maybe not so much internet....it is bit overestimated I htink....[13:32] herman Bergson: Just television..news media.....[13:32] herman Bergson: people all over the world can see how other societies look like....[13:33] Cain Levasseur: personally think that democracy isnt the "ultimate" political system for a global society[13:33] herman Bergson: I saw an egiptian man in the news....[13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what is going on now is amazing and such a question how it will all end[13:33] herman Bergson: the only thing he said was....We are entitled to a better life...![13:33] Cain Levasseur: just think about China.. a power that in 20-40 years will be the 1ºst economic power[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think so too[13:34] Cain Levasseur: and its a Communist dictatorship with free market economy[13:34] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): i hope this Egytian man is right..[13:34] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): revolution usually only replaces oppressors[13:34] herman Bergson: We'll see Arstotle...we'll see...[13:34] Cain Levasseur: ¿and why works better? cause its a regime with a strong discipline (Example: Corrupt politicians are executed)[13:34] herman Bergson: amazing historical experiment![13:34] Bejiita Imako: hmm what i dont like about china is the government threat people like machines letting them working to death building xboxes and so and just replace, just like a machine[13:34] Bejiita Imako: no value to human life at all[13:34] Bejiita Imako: terrible[13:35] herman Bergson: Let's not discuss particulars about regimes....[13:35] Cain Levasseur: im not talking about if i like or not China, or USA, or whatever, im talking about what political system works best for large amount of people[13:35] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): my anxiety comes form wondering how secular this current revolution is[13:35] herman Bergson: Let's look at the global picture....[13:35] druth Vlodovic: china can't last too long, people have seen that a better life is possible, and will only put up with so much[13:35] Cain Levasseur: looking foward for a global society[13:35] Bejiita Imako: a democracy i also would think seem the best for now[13:36] druth Vlodovic: "the best for all" is turning into the best survival strategy[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Druth.....[13:36] Bejiita Imako: however as most have it now its indirect and we chose a political party that then do whatever they want[13:36] Mick Nerido: The competition for resources is risky for peace[13:37] herman Bergson: That is the point Mick.....[13:37] herman Bergson: to some extend we succeed in a reasonable distibution of resources in our society[13:37] Bejiita Imako: not optimal in sweden either, the party we have now seem only care about the rich while letting ordinary people drop out of insurance unless they get a job but there arent any jobbs[13:38] Cain Levasseur: ¿what do you think about looking the humanity as a single organism?[13:38] herman Bergson: No...dont look at the political details ...[13:38] Bejiita Imako: the party think its easy but it isnt cause they dont go out and see the reality[13:38] herman Bergson: look at the global picture...[13:38] herman Bergson: in the West we succeed in a reasonable equal distribition of resources...[13:38] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): being the center of the universe, I am concerned with how a revolution will impact me and mine, not so much the greater good[13:38] Mick Nerido: We all are in one boat so we must learn to get along or else...[13:39] Bejiita Imako: some adjustments are needed but democracy is the best[13:39] Bejiita Imako: let the people decide[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats it[13:39] Bejiita Imako: how it should be[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: like in belgium[13:39] Mick Nerido: Majority rule[13:39] druth Vlodovic: those with power (and money) will always use it to accumulate more power, we need a system or method of frequent redistribution[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL how moral is it for 6 of 10 people to dictate to the remaing 4?[13:39] Cain Levasseur: Thats for Europe, cause in USA and South America the resources arent equally distributed[13:39] Cain Levasseur: and we all have democracies[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)[13:40] druth Vlodovic: so far the only non-violent system I've seen that does this (or tries) is forms of democracy[13:40] herman Bergson: What is going on since 1989 is the general drive to achieve equal distribution of resources....education, healthcare...jobs...and so on[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): taking lots of time tho'[13:41] Mick Nerido: The idea of souvernty is risky for peace also[13:41] druth Vlodovic: anything that is to last must have a firm foundation, and a firm foundation needs time to develop[13:41] herman Bergson: Loos at Saoudi Arabia...[13:41] herman Bergson: look[13:42] herman Bergson: All of a sudden the king can free 7 billion dollars for stimulating houses, stimulating small enterprises etc...[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: dubai-quatar--why aren't there any uprisings[13:42] herman Bergson: all of a sudden the money can be shared...[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the cost of those resources will foment many other world tensions now[13:43] Cain Levasseur: on the other hand, USA is going from a democracy to a dictatorship slowly[13:43] Cain Levasseur: like all the empires[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope not[13:43] Mick Nerido: The US will be less important[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :) yes, Cain I was wondering how the USgovernment would handle such are rebellion[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we may find out if this wisconsin business moves across the land[13:44] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): i think the Arab king has the fear to loose his crown[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL, yes don't mess with folks who have money[13:44] Cain Levasseur: i think that talk about a world society its talk about international politics :)[13:44] herman Bergson: Regardless all kinds of national politics....I have a feeling something is happening outhtere in line with the issues we are discussion here[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what we need is one alien to show up then we will see ...[13:45] Mick Nerido: The US is less rich it will have to learn to be a batter world citizen[13:45] herman Bergson: I have thought about that Gemma...[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the conflict between emotion and ratio is a mighty battle, for socity as well as the individual[13:45] herman Bergson: But aliens are in fact completely uninteresting....[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the us has always been a good world citizen with helping countries in need[13:46] herman Bergson: they are just more of the same....[13:46] Cain Levasseur: Gemma, thats not true[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in spite of our problems[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes[13:46] Bejiita Imako: they also like to start wars[13:46] Cain Levasseur: i live in South America, and what you say its so untrue[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but not a discussion for here[13:46] herman Bergson: .[13:46] Cain Levasseur: right[13:46] herman Bergson: But plz...go to a more abstract level...[13:46] Mick Nerido: Intersting times indeed![13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): as an American I choose not to be a world citizen, I am sovereign[13:47] herman Bergson: plz...[13:47] Bejiita Imako: us have both good and bad sides like all other places[13:47] herman Bergson: what we are investigating here is the brain....[13:48] herman Bergson: and the idea is that all human beings have the same hardware on board: the brain....[13:48] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): my point is we are all individuals and collective action with harm someone[13:48] Mick Nerido: An alian landing here would not understand our politics[13:48] herman Bergson: I am not interested in aliens....[13:49] Bejiita Imako: one thing i don't get is why all those ex dictators seem to lack one thing that i thought was something most people have[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): morality and virtue, I think starts with the individual[13:49] Bejiita Imako: care for other people[13:49] Bejiita Imako: they have no feelings for others[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and feel no guilt[13:49] Mick Nerido: Power corrupts[13:49] herman Bergson: I am interested in the fact that the species homo spaiens is the same all over the world....and at the end the species is heading for the same goal...survival...[13:49] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): the only feeling is about themselves[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes they don't think like u should[13:50] Mick Nerido: Survival of the fittest?[13:50] Bejiita Imako: that if I was one of "them" would i wanted to be treated like thrash,[13:50] herman Bergson: no...Mick..that is a misconception.....[13:50] herman Bergson: Survival of the fittest means..best adapted to its environment...[13:51] Bejiita Imako: but they instead think I am not them I am better that them so i can kill them or something like that[13:51] Mick Nerido: So the best adapted society will survive[13:51] herman Bergson: Ye Bejiita...our brainis still wired based on tribal drives..[13:51] Bejiita Imako: one thing is for sure these dictators must go away[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): have to leave early .. have a new club to open today[[13:52] herman Bergson: Good luck Gemma![13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:52] Bejiita Imako: north korea is worst example, that kim yong only care for his wealth and doomsday weapons while letting all his people die[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: Enjoy Gemma )[[13:52] Cain Levasseur: i think that a global society truly connected, like 1 country, its inminent[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....NorthKorea inthis context is a really weird experiment[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: afk[13:53] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the Roman Empire could not sustain itself, no way a one world government will work[13:53] herman Bergson: But don't forget...in every group you have the extremes[13:53] Mick Nerido: I must leave, thanks for a stimulating talk Bye[13:54] Cain Levasseur: ¿what do you think about UN Aristotle?[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): central governments can only abuse[13:54] Bejiita Imako: make me really sad, I mean how can u be such a swine and also seem like u just could end the entire world with nuclear weapons wothout a blink[13:54] Bejiita Imako: thats really dangerous people[13:54] Bejiita Imako: or people, monsters i would say[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think the UN is ineffective[13:55] herman Bergson: Aristotle..you think based on how it is today.....[13:55] herman Bergson: and project that into the future...[13:55] Cain Levasseur: i study international laws and i can tell you that it isnt ineffective.. it solves many many problems that in the past would mean war[13:55] Bejiita Imako: wonder how Kim yongs head is wired really[13:55] BALDUR Joubert: best solution would be huxley's brave new world..[13:55] Bejiita Imako: some cable must be loose for sure[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it is frightening to ponder our socital path[13:55] herman Bergson: no Baldur on the contrary[13:56] druth Vlodovic: things are getting better, but it is not a steady walk towards paradise[13:56] Cain Levasseur: a one world government doesn't mean a terrible dictatorship i think[13:56] herman Bergson: exactly Druth....[13:56] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. why not we have all it need to get there..and what did shakespeare really bring for humanitry[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): as long as 'Adam and Eve' exists, paradise is lost I fear[13:56] Bejiita Imako: important thing is that we all help each other to make the world go around and where all can be happy[13:57] Bejiita Imako: no wars no massacres on others[13:57] herman Bergson: Right Bejiita....[13:57] Bejiita Imako: im sooo tired of that[13:57] Bejiita Imako: lets be kind[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): i agree Bejiita, lets respect each other as individuals[13:57] BALDUR Joubert: bejiita.. soon 2 billion people won't achieve that..[13:57] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:58] herman Bergson: I think we are in the middle of an evolutionary change....[13:58] Bejiita Imako: that should be a natural thing to do[13:58] Bejiita Imako: as said all those dictators must have something wrong wired in the brain[13:59] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think you may be right Herman, the control factor will be either emotional or rational[13:59] herman Bergson: Ok...[13:59] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:59] Cain Levasseur: i think the may or change its that people are waking up, and using their brains[13:59] herman Bergson: I think we just saved the world with our discussion.....[13:59] Cain Levasseur: a dictatorship can only be hold for example on scared uninformed people[14:00] herman Bergson: So time to thank you all for your participation...[14:00] Bejiita Imako: yes[14:00] Bejiita Imako: really interesting again this:)[14:00] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.... ^_^[14:00] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL, the internet plays a big part in self enlightenment...something governments probalty abhore[14:00] Cain Levasseur: right Aristotle[14:00] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thanks you Professor[14:00] herman Bergson: That is crear Aristotle[14:01] herman Bergson: clear[14:01] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think it is instrumental in Arabia now[14:01] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): yes true Ari[14:01] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): young people are not afraid anymore[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty! Class and herman![[14:02] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes so thats why they control the internet in chine and ordinary people in north korea are completely isolated rom that and all the rest of the world, and now i read don't even have food and power[14:02] Bejiita Imako: awful[14:02] Bejiita Imako: I want a better world[14:02] Bejiita Imako: and a nice party with q[14:02] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): all the folks here in the US are so far subdued, this move aginast people with money and benefits may change that[14:02] Bejiita Imako: at the new place[14:02] Bejiita Imako: going there now[14:02] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[14:02] Bejiita Imako: cu all soon again[14:02] Bejiita Imako: hugs ㋡[14:03] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bejiita[14:03] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Bejiita[14:03] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): enjoy your new world:)[14:03] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[14:03] herman Bergson: Enjoy the party Bejiita![14:03] Cain Levasseur: i like to watch when people critic China[14:03] Bejiita Imako: aaa ㋡[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: Thank you Herman - thank you all - cu next week[14:03] Cain Levasseur: and its media[14:03] Cain Levasseur: cause our media its also censored[14:03] herman Bergson: Bye ciska :-)[14:04] Cain Levasseur: Bye all, thank you professor[14:04] Rodney Handrick: thanks Herman[14:04] herman Bergson: My pleasure , Cain ㋡[14:04] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): no such thing as the free press anymore, Jefferson is rolling over in his grave[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all:-)[14:04] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye bergie[14:04] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)[14:04] Anja Tigerfish: Namaarie[14:04] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•[14:05] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): RL is calling......goodbye all[14:05] Anja Tigerfish: bye[14:05] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thanks again Herman[14:05] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•[14:05] Anja Tigerfish: bye[14:05] herman Bergson: Tag Anja![14:05] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Gute nacht Anja[14:06] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye all..thank you Herman:)[14:06] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje[14:07] druth Vlodovic: lol, sorry herman, baldur and I are iming[14:08] herman Bergson: ok...enjoy....[14:08] druth Vlodovic: it was a good presentation, thank you[14:08] herman Bergson: thank you
