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When I started the series of lectures on basic emotions, interpreted from an evolutionary biological perspective, I said in lecture 306:"It is a mistake, but it is a generally accepted view through history: the human being controls himself by use of his ratio, his actions are based on reasonable considerations, and his behavior is based on knowledge, analysis and synthesis."The basic emotions show that our behavior is controlled by a lot more than our overestimated rationality.As I told you before, we are now in the frontline of neurobiological developments and the philosophical discourse related to those events.Ludwig John (someone who attended our class) directed my attention to a german URL, which was an interview with Alexander Braidt on his book "Bewußtsein. Der Abgrund zwischen Mensch und Tier" (Consciousness: the Abyss between man and animal)The subtitle is exciting in the sense that it refers exactly to what my next lectures will be about:Zur unverstandenen Sonderstellung des menschlichen Gehirns. Eine Streitschrift zum Menschenbild der jüngeren Hirnforschung bei Roth, Singer und Co.Translation: About the misunderstood special position of the human brain. A pamphlet against the concept of man in recent brain research by Roth, Singer and Co.I could not find further information on Alexander Braidt except that he is the author of the book, I mentioned. Interesting however is, that he is one who questions the neuroscientists.And that is exactly what I also was planning to do. In an interview Alexander Braidt said, in line with what I already said in lecture 306, but he adds a few interesting ideas:he reacts to the mistake I mentioned earlier: the idea that the human being with his rationality should be regarded as almost positioned above nature, but also to the views of the neuroscientists on man."So there are good reasons to warn against a special position of man. Only the established brain research pours in this case the baby out with the bath water: that man is from the animal kingdom, does not exclude absolutely that evolution has brought with it a radically new quality, which transcends pure biology. Already the formation of the first molecular chains of elementary atoms introduced radically new properties, which transcended the the purely physical.Take for example atoms that organize "all of a sudden" in an evolutionary process into H2O/water. And a special arrangement and organization of certain long chain molecules into a DNA brought forth revolutionary features like replication and metabolism , which were considered impossible of the individual molecules. Inorganic materials thence developed the radical new feature of life.With some justification, one could say that the current brain research tries to cover up its long-term failure regarding the peculiar phenomenon of consciousness and with it the special position of mankind;it degrades his ego and his so-called free will to pure illusion and consciousness to an epiphenomenon. Brain research has so far failed to discriminate between specific contents of consciousness of perception, attention (e.g. a tree, dog, etc.) and the pure, general condition of awareness."Braidt argues in fact that like atoms, that organized into molecules, these molecules, that constitute our braincells, have organized into something that transcends pure biology: consciousness.There still is so much to say now, but we'll have to address that in new lectures, but what is for sure: our battle between the philosopher and the brain has begun.source:http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/34/34648/1.html
The Discussion[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you... :-)[13:26] herman Bergson: If you have any question or remark..the floor is yours ^_^[13:27] Doodus Moose: we can almost draw a line from atoms to organic molecules, but from molecules to consciousness?????[13:27] Mick Nerido: It is quite amazing that matter can be able to evolve into conscious life forms[13:27] Bejiita Imako: interesting[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Doodus...that is the fascinating philosophical problem we gonna tackle :-)[13:27] Bejiita Imako: and kind of amazing[13:28] Kyra Neutron: so...none of you believes that..first..there as conciousness[13:28] Kyra Neutron: ?[13:28] herman Bergson: That is the problem Mick....[13:28] herman Bergson: mattter into consciousness...we have no clue at all how to understand that[13:28] Kyra Neutron: you truly can place yourself coming from inorganic mollecules?P[13:29] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:29] Doodus Moose: organic molecules exhibit (as we say in computers) determinism - but consciousness does not[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Kyra I see no problem there...[13:29] Kyra Neutron: herman[13:29] Kyra Neutron: wood is wood[13:29] Mick Nerido: we are organic[13:29] Kyra Neutron: yes..and[13:30] Kyra Neutron: what hocus pocus[13:30] Kyra Neutron: created organic?[13:30] herman Bergson: what we cant understand doesn't mean that it yet happened...and in evolution ..it happened[13:30] Kyra Neutron: how the protons and quarks turned into this dna and rna?[13:30] Mick Nerido: We are carbon based life forms[13:30] Bejiita Imako: also another thing[13:30] Bejiita Imako: plants are also alive but are they conscious[13:30] Bejiita Imako: a tree or a flower[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i dont think so[13:31] Kyra Neutron: yes bejita[13:31] Kyra Neutron: they are part of the consiousness too[13:31] Bejiita Imako: plants[13:31] Kyra Neutron: and they can understand death[13:31] herman Bergson: HOLD ON![13:31] Kyra Neutron: fear[13:31] Kyra Neutron: love[13:31] Kyra Neutron: but[13:31] Kyra Neutron: still[13:31] Kyra Neutron: as we do[13:31] herman Bergson: Hold on....![13:31] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:31] Mick Nerido: Plants have light and gravity sensing tropisms[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hmm cause they seem to feel well when the environment is right[13:32] Bejiita Imako: but they have no brain, seems just a bunch of independent cells[13:32] Kyra Neutron: a good point[13:32] Kyra Neutron: gravity[13:32] Bejiita Imako: dont know[13:32] herman Bergson: It will be our goal to understand the concept of consciousness in the nexrt lectures...[13:32] Kyra Neutron: we are a bunch of[13:32] Kyra Neutron: independent cells either[13:32] Kyra Neutron: you and me[13:32] Kyra Neutron: is no better than a cucumber[13:32] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:33] herman Bergson: Hold on agian...:-)[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but for ex a tree have no such thing as a brain have no mind[13:33] Bejiita Imako: can a tree feel?[13:33] Kyra Neutron: we are all part of this great breathing gravity[13:33] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:33] Mick Nerido: That we are conscious is self evident how is the question[13:33] herman Bergson: What is the focus of this discussion..what are we debating?[13:33] Bejiita Imako: in some way i think it can[13:33] Kyra Neutron: with the independent cells[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but is it aware of its surroundings[13:33] Kyra Neutron: ah yes[13:33] Kyra Neutron: sorry herman[13:34] herman Bergson: What it is all about today is that the neuroscientists have no clue what consciousness is...[13:34] Kyra Neutron: but a crystal remains as a crystal..and..there is still not a good explanation for the dna ...entereing the scene[13:34] Mick Nerido: The more complex the brain the more it will be aware and possibly conscious[13:34] herman Bergson: and we have to figure out WHAT it is...[13:35] herman Bergson: philosophically :-)[13:35] Kyra Neutron: so first..conciousness...next..[13:35] Kyra Neutron: shadows[13:35] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:35] Doodus Moose: [13:35] herman Bergson: Might be true Kyra...[13:36] herman Bergson: But even if w edont understand consciousness....[13:36] herman Bergson: I'd like to explain to you WHY we dont understand it....[13:37] Kyra Neutron: yes pls[13:37] herman Bergson: In the interview was anther remarkable question....[13:37] herman Bergson: Was something like....[13:38] herman Bergson: What politicla goals are persued by this neurobiological approach of man?[13:38] herman Bergson: Everyone is inclined to beleiv ethat science is science....not that science is politics...[13:39] Mick Nerido: I don't think we yet have words for what conciousness is...[13:39] Kyra Neutron: ...we don't need english letters to know it[13:39] herman Bergson: We gonna work n that Mick...[13:39] Kyra Neutron: close your eyes..and see...[13:39] Kyra Neutron: :p[13:39] Bejiita Imako: to be aware of yourself and your surroundings i d say[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and to be able to feel[13:40] herman Bergson: .[13:40] Mick Nerido: But we need a language for true communication about it[13:40] Kyra Neutron: idk[13:40] Kyra Neutron: a synestesic can find the correct words for it?[13:41] Kyra Neutron: yeti believe they see it easier...[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Mick..that is was Paula Churchland claims...in het book Neurophilosophy[13:41] Kyra Neutron: lowers eyes...sorry herman..i stay silent :p[13:42] herman Bergson: Like in the Middle Ages we had a language which explained nature using terms of whitchcraft and magic...[13:43] Mick Nerido: Naming a thing makes it more real and understandable[13:43] herman Bergson: today...we don't use these terms at all anymore...we use the language of physics[13:43] Kyra Neutron: a "thing"[13:43] Kyra Neutron: that you can touch[13:43] Kyra Neutron: smell[13:43] Kyra Neutron: see[13:43] Kyra Neutron: hear[13:43] Kyra Neutron: makes it easire to definable by mind[13:43] herman Bergson: yes. Kyra...[13:44] herman Bergson: Magic as explanaion has just ceased to exist...like witches[13:44] Kyra Neutron: a name which doesnt have any connection via our senses...[13:45] Bejiita Imako: magic by definition is to defy all laws of nature[13:45] Bejiita Imako: wich is impossible to do[13:45] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...[13:45] Kyra Neutron: it was pleasure to mess the class again[13:45] Kyra Neutron: hopefully see you next time[13:45] Kyra Neutron: nite nite[13:45] herman Bergson smiles at Kyra[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu Kyra[13:46] herman Bergson: Ok...I guess you wait for the nexr round..:-)[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:46] herman Bergson: who will win...the philosopher or the neuroscientist..?[13:46] herman Bergson: If I have to bet....???[13:47] herman Bergson: I'd put my money on herman Bersgon ^_^[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:48] herman Bergson: OK...[13:48] herman Bergson: It is up to me to win my own bet then ^_^[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:48] Doodus Moose: (is curious about the odds in the bet)[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman[13:49] herman Bergson: Nice thought Doodus....^_^[13:49] Mick Nerido: So you bet on the philosopher?[13:49] herman Bergson: I do Mick![13:49] Zinzi Serevi: thanks Herman, till next class, bye all..:)[13:49] Mick Nerido: Me too[13:50] Doodus Moose: bye Zinzi[13:50] Bejiita Imako: interesting for sure[13:50] Doodus Moose: bye all!!!!!![13:50] Mick Nerido: Thanks[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you Zinzi..:-)[13:50] Bejiita Imako: bye Doodus[13:50] Ortwin Sveiss: thanks for this last minute[13:50] herman Bergson: Time to dismiss class[13:50] Mick Nerido: , your best lecture to date imo[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman...it was very interersting;)))[13:50] Bejiita Imako: I think both have right but in their own ways but who have the most right[13:50] Bejiita Imako: interesting[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:51] herman Bergson: We'll see Bejiita...we'll see :-)[13:51] Bejiita Imako: but raw science is maybee not the best thing always[13:51] Bejiita Imako: a combination of both things make best I think[13:51] Bejiita Imako: science and philosophy[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cause both have right in their special ways i think[13:52] herman Bergson: Betrand Russell said that when we can answer a question...the question moves from philosophy to science...[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes science is raw facts about what is proven[13:53] herman Bergson: yes...as far as we understand reality now...[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: yes its in a permanent flow[13:54] herman Bergson: yes Ciska...[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: and the speed grows.[13:55] herman Bergson: We just appraoch reality forma pragmatic point of view...[13:55] herman Bergson: science is that what works...[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: well what else can we do ;)[13:55] herman Bergson: ok...true[13:55] herman Bergson: we need to survive...[13:55] herman Bergson: so to be pragmatic is maybe the best strategy[13:56] herman Bergson: interesting thought...:-)[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: maybe its the only one[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: ;)[13:56] herman Bergson: especially from an evolutionary point of view[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: yes[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: anyway have a good evening folks[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: cu thursday[13:57] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu ㋡[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
"Why must running into an obstacle to achieve our goal be accompanied by an emotion we don't like at all: rage? Why did it survive evolution? I'll answer this question in the next lecture." were the last words of my previous lecture.From an evolutionary point of view this is a useless question. Rage IS unpleasant, like water IS wet. It is an intrinsic feature of it. If it were a pleasant emotion, you might be beaten up and enjoy the rage it evokes in you.In fact, the unpleasantness of rage is part of the power of the emotion to overcome an obstacle. When some one is blocking your way, it could be seen as an hostile act, even a kind of aggression.Here you see the positive power of rage. It is communicated by voice, gestures and facial expressions. The effect may be that this kind of threatening behavior makes the opponent retreats.Thus rage even prevents escalation and further aggression. This is a very common behavior in the animal kingdom. You growl, show your teeth and your opponent might reconsider his intentions.And it can work both ways. The opponent can show an even stronger rage behavior, which forces the other party to re-evaluate his goals. So, in general threatening often surpreses the aggression on both sides.From an evolutionary point of view this is not so surprising: aggression easily leads to damage, to wounds. It is a not done. When animals yet start a fight, it often is without inflicting serious physical damage.Rage is not only a psychological burst of energy, but also a physical phenomenon. The blood is redirected to the muscles. The activity of the intestines is slowed down. You feel stronger, like you feel weaker when in grief or depressed.In the course of evolution of the Homo Sapiens (that's us :-) this emotion of rage has become more and more adapted to our cognitive ability. In the beginning rage was a way to overcome physical and social obstacles.From our growing consciousness there emerged an "I" - awareness, a sense of self-esteem: a Self. We won't go into detail here with respect to these concepts. That is for later, because these are philosophically mind boggling issues.We'll focus on self-esteem, for this was very important for the individual. It defines his place in the group. The brain became steadily better to evaluate itself and the body, in which it resides. The result of the evaluation was important for the social behavior of the individual (as it still is of course).When this Self is attacked the first response may be shame ("ouch, is that me indeed?") but then it turns into rage ("I don't have to accept that! So, apologize for what you just said or….!")Rage is an interesting mechanism to remove obstacles for the normal functioning of our Self in the social group. And we also know the extremes: the person with such a big self-esteem, that even the slightest word of criticism will infuriate him.We are still talking here about the emotion of one individual, but because these basic emotions are shared by every one in the group, they also work on a social level.The integrity of the group is most important for survival. So, you easily can imagine what will happen when some one from inside or outside the group tries to disrupt this integrity. A collective rage can be the consequence, which mobilizes all energy in the group to eliminate the threat.Today we are member of all kinds of groups: a family, a sports club, soccer fan club, a town or a country. Just think of soccer fans of club A and the rage they can get into by seeing fans of the opponent's club.Culture determines on who, when and how we can focus our rage. Typically, culture rejects physical violence - leads to damage - in any case and rather prefers to negotiate, increase verbal abuse or the threatening than physical action.As I discuss rage here from an evolutionary point of view it is considered as a mechanism that does a good thing, but of course we all know that it also can be a dangerous emotion, which can lead to full-scale escalation of violence and aggression. This happens in all cases, where negotiations didn't work.One of the enemies of emotions is time, certainly for rage, because it gives the slower part of our brain, the cortex, the time to make a rational analysis of the emotion and subdue the evolutionary older parts of the brain, which are responsible for the instant rage.The ratio can come up with two suggestions: the first one is to understand that rage is a secondary emotion, beneath it is the real emotion you have to deal with, which is most of the time some kind of frustration or feeling attacked for some reason.The second one is to change places with the target of your rage. Suppose you are waiting for a parking place….. the other car pulls out and drives off. Then out of the blue another car takes "your" place!You get out of your car and are furious and you'll gonna tell that other person. However, he hadn't seen you waiting for the place, so, feels completely innocent. Imagine that you were in his position?What is the meaning of your rage here?The Discussion[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours :-)[13:24] herman Bergson: if you have any question or remark.....[13:24] Mick Nerido: Not being noticed could be the reason[13:25] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): well it seems the main emotion underlaying here is I would feel cheated out of my spot...[13:25] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): therefor, I would be upset...[13:25] herman Bergson: yo mean the parking example...[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:25] Kyra Neutron: so...be better at parking next time...[13:25] herman Bergson: just an example...[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they have identified a gene called the "warrior " gene[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it seems to cover a lot of this rage[13:26] herman Bergson: The issue here is rage as a basic emotion and its role in evolution[13:26] Mick Nerido: we have personal space issues here[13:26] Bejiita Imako: one thing i can get mad at is stuff that struggles in general when u definitely dont want it to[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): 30 % of men have it[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): less women[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma![13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): saw a shwo about it the other day[13:26] herman Bergson: Not surprised![13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you can do a test[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for it[13:27] herman Bergson: cool...[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ok[13:27] herman Bergson: do I have the gen?[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but as they ended saying gene or no gene you still have to take personal responsibility to account for your actions[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and work on it[13:27] herman Bergson smiles[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma ...we cant escape ethics[13:28] herman Bergson: we have a knowledge of good and bad....![13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but at least those who have it can find out if they have the gene[13:28] herman Bergson: gene or no gene[13:29] ShinKenDo: its disconection of reality i might say[13:29] herman Bergson: lik ethe y also found a gene that makes you more susceptible for religious beliefs[13:29] herman Bergson: What do yo mean Shin?[13:30] Mick Nerido: The God gene?[13:30] herman Bergson smiles[13:30] ShinKenDo: its the ego that disconects uto the reality ... it may has nothing to doo with gene..[13:30] herman Bergson: dont know it wa shis contribution Mick..:-)[13:31] ShinKenDo: if we would acknowledge that we are just sit in a car and wait for a parking spot we would not feel rage[13:31] herman Bergson: winks at Qwark[13:31] Mick Nerido: It's like cutting in line. It's not fair[13:32] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) nods[13:32] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): and that makes a person feel cheated and angry, as if an injustice has been done[13:32] herman Bergson: You are still upset about the parking issue?? :-)[13:33] herman Bergson: What this is all about is the basic feeling of rage and how it developed in evolution[13:33] herman Bergson: and tho it is an unpleasant emotion we still have it..[13:33] ShinKenDo: rage might be a needed emotion in times where the live was more violent[13:33] herman Bergson: and it works...gives us energy to eliminate obstacles...[13:34] Zinzi Serevi: for some ppl its a pleasant emotion i think[13:34] Zinzi Serevi: they just go for it again and again[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Zinzi...even that can happen...[13:34] : Doodus Moose raises hand[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes as these fan themes in football games burning the entire city down after the game[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ruining the sport completely[13:34] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): I believe the rush is what people enjoy, not the rage per say[13:34] Bejiita Imako: big problems all over the world even in sweden[13:35] Mick Nerido: Sports can be acceptable form of rage[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Melody..but that emotion gives the drive and energy to create havoc and overcome the obstacle.[13:35] Zinzi Serevi: but what of the rage against emergency services[13:35] Bejiita Imako: not if the entire city burns afterwards as i've seen in some countries[13:36] Qwark Allen: :-)[13:36] Bejiita Imako: houses burns cars burn people lay wounded everywhere[13:36] Bejiita Imako: for a football game?[13:36] Bejiita Imako: thats insane![13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Zinzi ..interesting issue...[13:36] Kyra Neutron: yawns..prefers rage against the machine..[13:36] herman Bergson: We really have a problem here....[13:36] Zinzi Serevi: lol[13:36] Zinzi Serevi: me too[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ÿes that better[13:36] Bejiita Imako: speaking of that i had before today[13:37] Bejiita Imako: I have machines that struggle when i try do something[13:37] Bejiita Imako: first the bending machine lost its program and then the earplugs to my MP3 player broke[13:37] Bejiita Imako: i just AARRRRRRRRGGGH[13:37] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): that causes rage in me...my machines not doing what they should....[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thursdays = struggle days for me :(:([13:38] Bejiita Imako: at least sl works[13:38] Kyra Neutron: so kill in the name of the god..warrior...[13:38] Bejiita Imako: not even the bowling pinsetter wanted to work when i played later today[13:38] herman Bergson: ok ok..I got it.....[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and LHCV is down[13:38] Bejiita Imako: LHC[13:38] herman Bergson: we all seem to know that rage is a real basic emotion then[13:39] Mick Nerido: Would we be better off now without it?[13:39] herman Bergson: it comes from way back into history...[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hmm i'm at least tired of getting mad for this week[13:39] herman Bergson: No Mick..that is the point![13:39] Bejiita Imako: luckily my rl best friend come over this weekend[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and cheers me up[13:39] Zinzi Serevi: lol bejita[13:40] herman Bergson: Evolution has kept this emotion alive to overcome obstacles[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i feel rage when i am helpless to do anything about an issue[13:40] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): I believe we need rage as a sometimes catalyst for change[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so that does not help at all[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:41] herman Bergson: yes we do Melody[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Gemma ..then we have our cortex...[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hmm but when it struggles for me i just loose control and start slamming stuff and then that day is ruined[13:41] Zinzi Serevi: anger can make you come to some action if you want some changed[13:41] Zinzi Serevi: but rage?[13:42] herman Bergson: it contains the machinery that tells you that what is beyond your powers cant be helped by you[13:42] herman Bergson: the machinery[13:42] herman Bergson: anger is the feeling associated with rage Zinzi...[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: its less[13:43] herman Bergson: In Dutch we have other words for it[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: ok[13:43] ShinKenDo: so what use has rage... what do smart peoples think could be made with rage?[13:43] Mick Nerido: Which language has the most words for rage?[13:44] herman Bergson: That was the whole issue here Shin...rage gives energy to overcome obstacles[13:44] Zinzi Serevi: maybe it makes you aware of what you don't want[13:44] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) nods[13:44] Bejiita Imako: its as me im normally rational but when i get mad i can loose control, no fun at all[13:45] herman Bergson: no Bejiita..rage never is fun...[13:45] Kyra Neutron: can someone[13:45] Kyra Neutron: pls[13:45] Bejiita Imako: but it take a bit to get me to that but struggling stiff i have short temper with, at least when i just want it to work[13:45] Kyra Neutron: explain[13:45] ShinKenDo: and obstacle that cant be overcomme genereates rage then.. but cant stell be over comme... you cant pull out the other care put your care in with rage[13:45] Kyra Neutron: what is rage[13:45] Bejiita Imako: or this i want to be a good day and then something get in my way and ruins that[13:45] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): rage is a mental state that is one extreme of the intensity spectrum of anger.[13:45] herman Bergson: OK HOLD ON EVERY ONE !!!!!![13:45] Bejiita Imako: then i can get really mad cause i ve planned for it to be like this and this[13:45] herman Bergson: PLZ...[13:46] Kyra Neutron: madness..rage..anger...[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and it doesnt[13:46] Kyra Neutron: dont see anything positivie input here[13:46] herman Bergson: Kyra's question is quintessentail[13:46] herman Bergson: and we have to be very clear about the answer…[[13:46] ShinKenDo: rage might only be a emotional overflow that would put the blame on some one else ... so you can live with it more esaly or in rage you hurt yourselfe for being a foo.... but the obsticle is not overtaken still[13:46] herman Bergson: What is rage...?[13:46] herman Bergson: Quiet plz[13:47] herman Bergson: Rage is an emotion...![13:47] Kyra Neutron: and what is madness?[13:47] herman Bergson: And in previous lectures I have defined the concept of emotion we are using here[13:48] herman Bergson: an emotion is like an orchestra conductor...[13:48] Kyra Neutron: nods[13:48] herman Bergson: it is a behavioral complex that sets a number of processes into action[13:48] herman Bergson: like fear....[13:48] herman Bergson: or grief do too[13:48] Bejiita Imako: maddness is not rage, it is loosing rational thought and behave totally crazy against everything, id say Ghadaffi and Kim yong show maddness[13:49] Bejiita Imako: killing their own people[13:49] herman Bergson: I wasnt talking about madness..drop it[13:49] Bejiita Imako: getting mad however is rage[13:49] Kyra Neutron: mad _ madness_furious anger...[13:49] Bejiita Imako: same word for many things[13:49] Kyra Neutron: i dont think so[13:50] herman Bergson: What you have to understand is that what I call a basic emotion is a brain process that activates a whole plethora of actions[13:50] Zinzi Serevi: i think when you are in danger and can't fly then is rage usefull[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes thats correct[13:50] Kyra Neutron: oks..[13:51] herman Bergson: like rage reallocates the blood to muscles, creates andrenaline in the bloodstream....boosts the feeling of power and so on[13:52] Kyra Neutron: looses again..against survival cells..[13:52] herman Bergson: and th ebasic idea is...was this contributing to our evolution....?[13:52] Zinzi Serevi: survive and defend[13:52] herman Bergson: And the answer is yes... in general...[13:53] ShinKenDo: so you say rage is here to help overcome obstacles but... the person has still his car parked at MY place... even if i got in rage it change nothing... in rage i would attack the poor driver because i blame him or i would hit my self for being so slow..... but the car is still not parked... so .... rage might be a emotion that leads to another emotion... acceptance? calm?[13:53] herman Bergson: although we also know lots of examples where rage was utterly destructive[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and if u ram the car with your own your own car also would be wrecked[13:54] herman Bergson: You missed the point in the example Shin....[13:54] ShinKenDo: i might yes[13:54] Kyra Neutron: yes..i tpd him late...[13:54] Zinzi Serevi: every emotion can be good and destructive[13:54] Bejiita Imako: not happiness or?[13:55] Zinzi Serevi: yes happiness as well[13:55] herman Bergson: the point was that the victim of your rage wasn't aware of the cause...your waiting for the spot..he didnt notice you[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): have to go soon[13:55] Qwark Allen: yes me to[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats how i WANT to feel all time[13:55] herman Bergson: soyour rage is completely irrational...[13:55] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): so your rage is unfounded?[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman[13:55] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) nods[13:55] herman Bergson: and your cortex should correct that :-)[13:55] Qwark Allen: very interesting subject, as fear[13:55] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:55] Qwark Allen: ty[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wil try to make it tuesday but is not a good day for now[13:55] ShinKenDo: then rage is here to let others know what you are angry about to find a solution together?[13:55] Bejiita Imako: this is very interesting for sure indeed[13:55] Bejiita Imako: and complex[13:56] herman Bergson smiles[13:56] Qwark Allen: yes[13:56] Kyra Neutron: so nite nite to all..[13:56] herman Bergson: dont get angry...but I guess time to dismiss class ^_^[13:56] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) laughs[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ok night Kyra[13:56] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): goodnight Kyra[13:56] Bejiita Imako: hmm party time soon i guess[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank youall for your participation...[13:56] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): :)[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: Thank you Herman[13:56] Bejiita Imako: and also was nice to vent a bit of my issues today[13:57] Zinzi Serevi: thanks Herman[13:57] Bejiita Imako: damn thursday demons, always after me[13:57] Bejiita Imako: well well[13:57] Snow (snowbody.cortes): thanks herman[13:57] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): Wonderful class Professor[13:57] Bejiita Imako: tomorow its friday[13:57] herman Bergson: poor you , Bejjiita..[13:57] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) smiles[13:57] Bejiita Imako: and weekend[13:57] Bejiita Imako: and lot of fun things for me[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you Melody[13:57] Zinzi Serevi: your anger already flows away Bejiita[13:58] herman Bergson: ok..Go for it Bejiita![13:58] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..it was very interesting..as always:)[13:58] Bejiita Imako: feel better now yes[13:58] Bejiita Imako: no more struggle now[13:58] herman Bergson: cool![13:58] Bejiita Imako: tired of that[13:58] Bejiita Imako: want things to work[13:58] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) grins at Bejiita[13:58] Zinzi Serevi: its just like therapy this class..:P[13:58] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita..a waste of energy[13:58] Bejiita Imako: yes and ruins my days when it gets like that[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) is going to check to see if she has that "warrior" gene[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) laughs[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hee[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hahaha[13:59] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol Melody[13:59] Snow (snowbody.cortes): hihihi[13:59] herman Bergson: oh cool Melody..[13:59] herman Bergson: where is the test?[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ok time to scare the neighbors rl with Qwark[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): I am not sure but when I find it I will send you a link[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) grins[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hehe[14:00] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again[14:00] Bejiita Imako: this was nice and very interesting[14:00] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): hopefully I dont get enraged if I can not find it[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: bye folks cu[14:00] Zinzi Serevi: bye Ciska[14:00] Zinzi Serevi: bye everyone[14:00] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): Bye Ciska[14:00] herman Bergson: no ..you could smash your computer Melody..watch out !!!![14:00] Bejiita Imako: now its time to get my neiighbors mad instead[14:00] Bejiita Imako: loool[14:01] Bejiita Imako: lycky well insulated walls here[14:01] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) laughs[14:01] Bejiita Imako: dont know if they like Psy trance at high volume[14:01] Bejiita Imako: as I doo[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehe[14:01] herman Bergson: oh my Bejiita!!!!!![14:01] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): indeed, we wouldn't want me to smash my computer, I would then miss Tuesdays class[14:01] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) smiles[14:01] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hugs[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[14:01] herman Bergson smiles
If you had the choice to get rid of one specific emotion from the collection that cheers up our human lives, I guess that anger would be one of the first candidates.Like grief we regard it as a negative feeling, but some of you were surprised to hear me talk about grief as a positive feeling. You won't believe it, but also anger can be regarded as a positive feeling.But here is the catch: in your personal experience you'll certainly find grief and anger emotions you prefer to avoid, but here WE look at emotions from an evolutionary point of view.And then is not the main question "How does it feel?" but "Has the emotion an evolutionary advantage?" And then we can say that rage is not always destructive. It can be very constructive…Rage is not synonymous with aggression. Aggression is an act, while rage is an emotion, a drive. A lot of rage is without aggression. Rage can even prevent aggression.We have rage in all colors and flavors: from a mild annoyance to a true furiosity. But all have one thing in common. Rage generates energy. It gives us the power to overcome an obstacle.That is the main function of rage: it focuses our energy on the realization of a goal that apparently is blocked by some one or something.It may be a bit mean, but you already can test it on a baby. A baby wants to move its arms and legs freely in all directions. When you block an arm from moving in any direction the little one will frantically try to move his arm and protest furiously.This could be seen as the quintessence of the emotion: the fact that we are frustrated in achieving some goal. The intensity of the rage is often determined by the degree of frustration we experience.It makes a difference whether someone deliberately works against us, or if someone accidentally does that, or when an inanimate object blocks the achieving of our goal.This makes me think of typical movie psychology… or does this count only for American movie psychology? Rage is not a simple emotion. There is a connection between rage and grief.Most of the time, not always, is our reaction on a failure or loss caused by the cause of it. If it is a person, who deliberately got in our way, rage may turn into aggression and make us beat up our hindrance.If it is a person, who is unaware of the fact that he got in our way….. well we may show an angry face but then swallow our anger and move on.If it is your dog or an inanimate object we may feel disappointment and subsequently grief. But then it begins….. You say to the dog "STUPID DOG!!!" and things like that.And here comes the movie psychology: he is pursuing the serial killer…almost gets him..then his car breaks down….geez..was just a matter of seconds….He gets out of his car and starts yelling at it. Then he starts kicking it. He smashes the windows and so on. Rage, that leads to aggression, even against an inanimate object.It is a cute reference to our prehistorical ancestors. They thought that the animals, trees and rocks had a soul. It even is present in our own psychological development. Jean Piaget (9 August 1896 – 16 September 1980), a Swiss developmental psychologist and philosopher known for his epistemological studies with children, called it the animism in the magical thinking in the age of 2 to 7: the belief that your doll really feels pain…. And movie directors love to display such atavistic or childlike behavior.Rage and grief can also be closely related , when a man is rejected by a woman of whom he expected or hoped that she would say YES to him.He leaves her house, feeling sad, but gradually his sadness turns into anger and rage (She has some one else !!!) and he could turn around and his rage could turn into aggression…..A lot of interpersonal violence is caused by failed love affairs, most of the time committed by men against women.Why must running into an obstacle to achieve our goal be accompanied by an emotion we don't like at all: rage? Why did it survive evolution? I'll answer this question in the next lecture.The Discussion[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you...^_^[13:24] herman Bergson: Feel free to come up with remarks or questions..floor is yours[13:24] Doodus Moose: if i experience something more like frustration...[13:24] Usher Piers: thanks :)[13:24] Doodus Moose: i find myself doing something that needed to be done for a long time[13:24] Doodus Moose: ....like installing a door, for instance[13:24] herman Bergson smiles[13:25] Mick Nerido: If our ancestors didn't feel rage and overcome obstacles we would not be here now[13:25] herman Bergson: Very true Mick[13:25] herman Bergson: But that is with all emotions....they offered an evolutionary advantage to the species[13:26] herman Bergson: The thing i s only that we still have these basic emotions while our environment has changed so much[13:26] Mick Nerido: Sublimated rage is very powerful energy[13:27] herman Bergson: Oh yes Mick..we'll get to that next lecture![13:27] Doodus Moose: a stress counselor once said "if you can't control your boss at work, clean up your office"[13:27] herman Bergson: may be a good advise Doodus..but how does it relate to rage?[13:28] Doodus Moose: sort of like holding the baby's arm - you can't control something ?[13:28] Mick Nerido: If I get angry and can't change the situation I go to the gym :)[13:29] herman Bergson: well I guess it is all about the feeling of control in such moments...[13:29] herman Bergson: If you can't control your boss...[13:29] herman Bergson: cleaning uo your desk is a show of control...for yourself...[13:29] Doodus Moose: [13:29] Mick Nerido: Passive agressive[13:30] herman Bergson: Going to the gym…control of you body![13:30] Doodus Moose: ...also stress release![13:30] Ciska Riverstone: it makes sense to feel more energy when an obstacle is in the way - otherwise you have no chance to overcome it...[13:30] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): rage normally is not good for peaceful living together[13:30] Mick Nerido: Yes I am in better shape so an survival advantage[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes when u really want something but it struggles[13:31] Bejiita Imako: like now for i want my inventory to come back again[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes ciska's remark is quitessential...[13:31] Bejiita Imako: and i hope it does for sure[13:31] herman Bergson: and what siggi says too![13:31] herman Bergson: We'll get to that in the next lecture...[13:32] Mick Nerido: Rage is an outgoing emotion grief is inward[13:32] herman Bergson: Why didn't we discard of rage as an emotion in evolution?[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): what is the diffrence between rage and anger?[13:33] herman Bergson: anger is just the feeling of the moment Beertje...[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: we did not discard it but didn't the acceptance change quiet a lot ? the cultural one?[13:33] herman Bergson: when you are in rage you are angry, so to speak..[13:33] herman Bergson: when you are in grief you feel sad....[13:34] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you[13:34] herman Bergson: the difference between emotion and feeling...[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:34] Mick Nerido: You look sexy when you are angry is an expression[13:34] herman Bergson: the emotion is like the conductor of an orchestra...he sets all kinds of instruments in motion...[13:34] Doodus Moose: [13:35] Bilthor Esharham: ㋡[13:35] Bilthor Esharham: ㋡[13:35] herman Bergson: a feeling is just a mood[13:35] Zinzi Serevi: sometimes i think a man can more easy feel rage then grief[13:36] herman Bergson: hmmmm...Zinzi.....I don tknow....[13:36] herman Bergson: I call rage a secondary emotion....[13:37] Zinzi Serevi: well when you feel rage you can do something[13:37] Zinzi Serevi: if you feel grief its more difficult[13:37] herman Bergson: we'll get to that later but I mean ..underneath the rage is an other emotion...covered up by the rage[13:37] Zinzi Serevi: yes[13:37] herman Bergson: so grief and rage aren't equivalent...[13:38] herman Bergson: rage is a complex emotion...[13:38] herman Bergson: a mix so to speak[13:38] Doodus Moose: perhaps someday we can discuss those things that "control" our emotions, (ie: prevent our rage from making us do something stupid)[13:38] Doodus Moose: (self control)[13:39] herman Bergson: But we do that a lot of times Doodus..[13:39] herman Bergson: You read an article in your nespaper...you get really angry about it....[13:39] herman Bergson: and then....?[13:40] herman Bergson: you put your anger/rage in your pocket and move on..[13:40] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): rage often keeps people away from thinking rationally[13:40] herman Bergson: or join the action committee related to it for instance[13:40] Mick Nerido: You write a letter to the paper[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Siggi[13:41] herman Bergson: and you know what happens when you see a video of yourself in rage???[13:41] herman Bergson: You feel embarrassed to see you act so irrationally[13:42] Doodus Moose: hilarious[13:42] herman Bergson: yes indeed Doodus[13:42] herman Bergson: good for a laugh indeed[13:42] Bilthor Esharham: *** HOHOHO THAT IS A GOOD ONE !!! ***[13:42] herman Bergson: Well I am glad nobody got in rage here today...^_^[13:43] herman Bergson: so thank you for this nice discussion...:-)[13:43] Bejiita Imako: was interesting[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..[13:43] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): maybe next time we will Herman :))[13:43] herman Bergson: See you next Thursday[13:43] Bejiita Imako: oki now i must try dfix my invent[13:43] Bejiita Imako: cu later soon[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: Thank You Professor - interesting as always :)[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: thank you Herman, see you all later..:)[13:43] herman Bergson: Thank you ciska[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: fingers crossed for it Bejiita[13:43] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): thank you an good night[13:44] Mick Nerido: Thanks see you next class[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hope it works[13:44] Doodus Moose: thanks all, this was really enjoyable :)[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: good day/night all :)[13:44] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..it was very interesting:)[13:44] Bilthor Esharham: Very thanks ....and good night for all.[13:44] Bilthor Esharham: bye[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: bye folks[13:44] Bilthor Esharham: Namaarie[13:44] herman Bergson: Bye Bilthor
Let me draw you the picture again for you to elucidate the grand scheme of the project "The Mystery of the Brain".The basic assumption is, that the mind is in fact a biological phenomenon which is one way or the other caused or generated by the brain.As a first step we have seen how the brain generates a "Supersense", an intuitive interpretation of reality, which leads to all kinds of supernatural explanations, that defy any laws of physics and are hard to accept as the right explanations.In the second step we visited a number of results of research on the brain, which showed us the relation between physically observable brain activity and what you could call 'mental states':observations about hearing voices, experiencing the presence of a ghost or something like that, experiencing pain is an amputated limb, serious changes in personality because of partial brain damage and so on….Our present step tries to show us how much, especially since Descartes (1576 - 1650), philosophers and scientists have contributed to the overestimation of the human ratio.By digging into the evolutionary backgrounds of the brain we must conclude that the homo sapiens only uses his rationality partially. A lot of times we put our rationality on hold and have our behavior controlled by basic emotions.An emotion is drive that alerts a number of behavioral systems to direct all actions to solve a problem. Like fear makes use run for danger and grief makes us look inward to reconsider the purpose of our life.In the discussion after the lecture on grief Kyra made the remark, that I made it look all so positive. Of course no one will agree on the idea that grief is a positive feeling,but we are analyzing the basic emotions, which are found among, I think, all primates and at least among all humans, from an evolutionary point of view.The basic assumption is then, that the emotion in question must have had a positive function with respect to our survival as human beings. From that point of view it can't be denied that grief must have had a positive effect on the chances of survival. Just take the effect of strengthening social bonds in a group.But of course, the basic emotions, which we all share, are not 100% biologically explicable anymore, like we can explain them in such a way in the behavior of animals as always recurring behavioral patterns.Our emotions are deeply immersed and shaped in culture too. Emotions are not pure and singular. They are most of the time a mix like joy sometimes is accompanied by tears or grief by pride (when offering the life of your child to the gods was was regarded as a great honor).Yesterday I was a guest speaker and lectured on the theme: experiencing jealousy in SL. From a biological point of view this seems to be a rather odd feeling here, but from a psychological point of view I guess not.Jealousy was in the early days of homo sapiens a complex emotion based on fear. It had everything to do with reproduction, survival and delivering genes.If you look at the picture of the brain to my left of me, I can tell you that the whole part with those twists has evolved much later in evolution than the part of the brains that control fear. These coils and twists however provide housing for our ratio i particular.The man raises his reproductive success with causing many conceptions with females, the wife by pursuing a high quality partner.A very fundamental difference in reproductive strategies, which in the course of evolution have developed side by side, within one species that is.The danger for the man is in the sexual action of his woman with another man, the danger for a woman is the emotional bond of her man with another woman. She needs his help in raising her kids to offer them a reasonable chance to survive.Mind you, I'm talking about our ancestors. Natural selection should have a defense system designed to counteract these dangers.This mechanism is a system where the behavior and actions of the partner are checked to ensure that they minimize contact with someone of the opposite sex.We call the driving emotion, which directs many actions in one direction (partner hold!) an emotion, namely sexual jealousy. Actually it would be more appropriate to call it relational (genes) control.This has led to a difference in jealousy between husband and wife. As a simple illustration: murder in the relational sphere due to jealousy is predominantly by men. The number of women, for this reason, that commit murder is negligible in comparison.This is what we have inherited from our evolutionary past. Genes are important direction givers, but you will understand that this behavioral system now also strongly is shaped by culture.And that culture is here now the culture of Second Life. . From an evolutionary standpoint jealousy in Second Life is a remarkable thing. There is no link with our genes or procreation. Yet this basic emotion occurs here. Now, for the protection of pixels, which we have become attached to, it seems or should I say, the person behind the pixels or only the mind behind the pixels?Maybe this demonstrates how emotions, being so basically evolutionary, also are embedded in ideas created by our culture: romantic ideas about everlasting love and affection. Didn't you never read in a profile: "You are the man of my life. I'd rather die than leaving you, ….." ?The Discussion[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you.....^_^[13:23] herman Bergson: If you have a question or remark...the floor is all yours..[13:23] Zinzi Serevi: thank you..:)[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:23] Zinzi Serevi: i said enough yesterday..;P[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: herman..max frisch -swiss writer -in his memories cites:[13:24] herman Bergson smiles at Zinzi[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: eifersucht ist die angst vorm vergleich[13:24] itsme Frederix: Oke, I guess that jealous in SL is not that remarkable, its just that you can experience an other is more successfull in whatever you share so ..[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: jealousy is the fear of being compared[13:24] Jerome Ronzales: its all comedy at the end[13:25] itsme Frederix: Baldur thats what I mean[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: this is i think expressing the basic evolutionary problem and the culturalas well[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Baldur...that could be the case in SL[13:25] Bejiita Imako: id say its fear about competition from another[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: so sl or rl its the same fear[13:25] itsme Frederix: comparing genes in a more abstract way[13:25] Bejiita Imako: that risk taking over[13:25] Bejiita Imako: what you have[13:25] Mick Nerido: The more SL resembles RL the more jealously will be felt[13:26] herman Bergson: of course RL and SL are the same in this...for it is us at the keyboard...RL persons...[13:26] herman Bergson: Indeed Mick...that is the quintessential point[13:26] itsme Frederix: Again some nomencaltuur, both are RL better mention them first/second life[13:26] CONNIE Eichel accepted your inventory offer.[13:26] CONNIE Eichel: :)[13:27] itsme Frederix: virtuality is experienced so is real[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: well feelings as we all know are created by pictures and words[13:27] herman Bergson: hmmmm.....[13:27] Mick Nerido: Real but not the same[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: movies.. playboy.. and thousands of sites on the net selling sex[13:28] herman Bergson: Psychologically it is real in the sense that one individual engages himself in this SL experience[13:28] itsme Frederix: But to stay with Herman and the topic: I agree with the words of Baldur[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: how can they make money if not appealing to real feelings ...[13:28] Mick Nerido: Someone said men fall i love with their eyes women fall in love with their ears[13:29] herman Bergson smiles[13:29] herman Bergson: Might be true Mick ^_^[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: you're a lucky man mick...[13:29] herman Bergson: so know your langaues ^_^[13:29] Bejiita Imako: aa yes there is really no difference, Sl is just a virtual interface for real people to meet wherever they might be[13:29] itsme Frederix: Herman what else is there psychological now you make it al biological by an organic brain raising mind.[13:30] herman Bergson: biology and psychology are just two languages describing the same reality...[13:30] herman Bergson: like physics and chemistry do...[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: think before we analyse jealous[13:31] itsme Frederix: So what do you mean then with "Psychologically it is real in the sense that ..." that does not add something[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: sorry stuck with kb[13:32] herman Bergson: I meant ..as an inner experience Itsme..as a feeling[13:33] Jerome Ronzales: there is a big lack between what you enhance like a good thing and the bad thing, speaking in the brain damage control status, so if the good feeling are enhanced it leads to a premeditated bad feelings or some sort of...[13:33] Ludwig John new whispers: Owner say /chat or touch me[13:33] herman Bergson: what do you mean Jerome[13:33] Jerome Ronzales felt i could add this[13:35] Jerome Ronzales: basically I'm defending the yin-yang theory applied to the brain functions[13:35] herman Bergson smiles[13:35] itsme Frederix: please explain..[13:35] Mick Nerido: You stated the mind created the brain?[13:35] herman Bergson: nice subject for a new project on comparative philosophy between the East and the West ^_^[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes MIck....[13:36] herman Bergson: I also can tell you that we don't know how....[13:36] Bejiita Imako: aaa[13:36] itsme Frederix: excuse me, the mind the brain or the brain the mind?![13:36] herman Bergson: But the best philosophical explanation I have heard was by John Searl....[13:36] druth Vlodovic: high emotional states are obviously a positive force in producing or raising kids or they wouldn't be so intense[13:36] Mick Nerido: It seem counter intutive[13:37] herman Bergson: Oh sorry Mick I misread....[13:37] herman Bergson: no...the brain creates the mind....the mind emerges from the biological processes of the brain![13:38] itsme Frederix: What is Daniel Dennett saying, he worked a long time and intensive on brain/mind and Darwin[13:38] Mick Nerido: Yes i agree:)[13:38] itsme Frederix: THX Herman, we have to use the right words and logic[13:38] herman Bergson: no ...was just a simple misreading....[13:39] herman Bergson: But we'll certainly get to the relation brain - mind - consciousness!!![13:39] herman Bergson: It is a HOT topic![13:39] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:39] Bejiita Imako: can imagine ㋡[13:39] Jerome Ronzales: there is a recurrent error in male/female where their brains react as if one is the ying and the other the yang, leading to a bad formation of the brains individuality disregarding many of the brain parameters and capabilities[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed[13:39] Mick Nerido: The brain is hardware mind is software[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh yes Bejiita ^_^[13:40] herman Bergson: So I am carefull about it before I burn my fingers on it ^_^[13:40] itsme Frederix: being conscious about your mind is most impressive, and recurrent[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:41] herman Bergson: let's discuss that later , Itsme...as I said..I don't want to burn my finger right now already ^_^[13:41] itsme Frederix: leading to a lot of miss interpretation of words on several layers[13:41] herman Bergson: as I said ^_^.... :-)[13:42] Mick Nerido: I think consciousness might be layered and not all or nothing[13:42] itsme Frederix: I just fiddle around the fire Herman, now it is not fed by your lectures[13:42] druth Vlodovic: if men become passive then they are of less use to providing/protecting offspring, making them less desirable mates[13:42] herman Bergson: No Itsme ..not yet....[13:42] herman Bergson: I keep my gunpowder dry for the time being ^_^[13:43] herman Bergson: Let's stick first to simple evolutionary biology....[13:43] itsme Frederix: Herman that the problem you use powder[13:43] itsme Frederix: I agree lets follow evolution[13:44] herman Bergson: ok....then....thank you all and let;s follow the advise of Itsme for th enext lecture....[13:44] itsme Frederix: So we got an organic brain creating something what is called/experienced as mind[13:44] herman Bergson: We'll discuss the emotion of RAGE then...[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Itsme...youare right....[13:44] herman Bergson: Let me give you Searle's answer.....[13:45] herman Bergson: may give you something to think about.....[13:45] herman Bergson: what is the relation between the brain and the mind?[13:45] herman Bergson: just listen Jerome...[13:46] Jerome Ronzales: imho rage its derived from other not observed feelings[13:46] herman Bergson: you also can ask the question ...what is the relation between water(molecules) and liquidity?[13:46] itsme Frederix: hmmm analogy[13:46] herman Bergson: you can't take out a dry or a wet water molecule....[13:46] herman Bergson: no no..Itsme..physics[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:47] herman Bergson: the configuration of the molecues...their being in a certain state creates liquidity....[13:47] Jerome Ronzales: so , u can observe rage from a dude but you don't know why or when he did been impelled to[13:47] itsme Frederix: dry and wet are sensibilities not physics, physics has gas/fluid/solid[13:48] herman Bergson: so..liquidity as a phenomenon only exists because of the state h2o molecules are in[13:48] Bejiita Imako: same goes a thing i use to wonder about, the particle beam in ex the LHC, if u hit something with them, would it be a solid substance like sand or like hit by a high pressure gas or something[13:48] herman Bergson: It is the same with the mind...[13:48] Mick Nerido: It's a function of tempature[13:48] Bejiita Imako: impossible to tell but id think most close to a solid[13:48] Bejiita Imako: but individual particles cant have a state[13:48] Jerome Ronzales: physics, i surrender[13:49] herman Bergson: it only emerges because of the state certain molecules in our brain ar ein....and I am talking about billions of molecules of course[13:49] Jerome Ronzales: i rest my case[13:49] herman Bergson: so like it is impossible to have liquidity without water molecules it is impossible to have a mind without a brain....[13:49] Bejiita Imako: aaa true[13:49] herman Bergson: there is one fundamental point more....[13:49] Mick Nerido: So the brain is a conscious state maker[13:50] Bejiita Imako: sort of same thing[13:50] herman Bergson: the molecules CAUSE a certain state....[13:50] herman Bergson: we have a mistaken idea of causation when we think that A causes B means that A and B are two distinct events...[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thanks! herman and class: -) Great lecture! :-) see u soon[13:51] itsme Frederix: I've to do some rethinking of Searle, thx Herman[13:51] herman Bergson: state A of H2o molecules cause B...liquidity....[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cu berg[13:51] itsme Frederix: If I understand Searle correctly, he says that the mind is a "feature" or the brain, just like hardness is a feature of a diamond. He then goes on to say that as a feature of the brain, the mind has causal powers, just like you could say the hardness of the diamond can be a causal explanation (for, say, what a piece of concrete does when a diamond-tipped drill is applied to it.) He points out lastly that a "hardness" is not a property of atoms or even individual molecules. Rather, it is a higher-level feature of a particular system of molecules. So too, the mind is a high level feature of the brain.[13:51] herman Bergson: a complete different way of causation.[13:51] herman Bergson: Don't do that Itsme...dumping text![13:52] herman Bergson: You know the rules here![13:52] itsme Frederix: I forgot, sorry was out of my mind BLAME the biological part of me which is causal condemned to do this[13:52] herman Bergson: You are excused Itsme....:-)[13:53] CONNIE Eichel: hehe[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all for you participation....and good discussion...[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....^_^[13:54] Jerome Ronzales: \o_[13:54] Jerome Ronzales: thx[13:54] CONNIE Eichel: great one :)[13:54] Zinzi Serevi: thanks Herman,[13:54] itsme Frederix: I'll do some rereading of Searle as homework/punismnet Herman. Allthough can ome be guilty - thats a tuff question today.[13:54] herman Bergson: I read your text itsme...and yes that is exactly how he meant it...[13:54] Jerome Ronzales: at least i arrived on time today[13:54] Mick Nerido: Very thoughtfull, thanks[13:55] Peli (peli.dieterle): tx herman[13:55] herman Bergson: llike liquidity is a higher level of organisation of h2o molecules[13:55] Peli (peli.dieterle): bye everyone[13:55] CONNIE Eichel: bye peli[13:55] Bejiita Imako: interesting subject again[13:55] Zinzi Serevi: see you all soon..:)[13:55] Vector Interactor v1.0: CONNIE Eichel bids Peli Dieterle farewell![13:55] CONNIE Eichel: oops, sorry particles[13:55] CONNIE Eichel: bye bye zin[13:55] herman Bergson: I LOVE paricles CONNIE!!!![13:55] CONNIE Eichel: hehe[13:55] CONNIE Eichel: are great for crashing[13:56] Bejiita Imako: o0r smashing, like i like to do[13:56] CONNIE Eichel: omg[13:56] Bejiita Imako: hehehe[13:56] Bilthor Esharham: Very interesting.....I m very impressed
