341: The Mystery of the Brain Resumed

Welcome everyone (^_^)
It is good to see you here again. In a way this is a festive moment, for this is the 5th year, that I begin my series of lectures on the first of September.

I have done a number of projects, but the present one, still "The Mystery of the Brain", is my most cherished one, because it is the direct follow up of the thesis I defended in 1977 at the university.

In the 80s an avalanche of new information and scientific knowledge about the brain and consequently the mind has come down over us.

September 2010 I began with the project "The Mystery of the Brain" and for pragmatic reasons I told you, that we wouldn't discuss metaphysics for a while but assume a materialist point of view.

This fitted in perfectly well with the number of subjects, which we have discussed so far. We explored, what Bruce M. Hood named our "Supersense" and its function.

We traveled through many examples of the functioning of the brain in relation to what we believe is real. We learnt about fMRI scans of the brain. Ran into a highly questionable use of it, to check whether somebody was telling the truth of not.

We studied the brain machine and how it is driven by a set of basic emotions which we to a high extend share with other mammals on this earth.

But the most important what you can have learnt is, that our notion of the human being has gone through a number of fundamental paradigmatic changes during the past 500 years.

Time and again we had to answer the question for the meaning of man, the meaning of our existence in a different way due to paradigmatic shifts.

Galileo Galilei removed us around 1610 from the center of the universe. Charles Darwin showed in 1859 that we are a part of nature, not above nature.

Around 1900 Sigmund Freud made clear to us that we are not only consciousness, but that there also exists an influential subconsciousness.

In 1953, James D. Watson and Francis Crick suggested what is now accepted as the first correct double-helix model of DNA structure in the journal Nature.

And all of a sudden life in its qualities became something , which can be manipulated and for instance genetically changed or as some say, improved.

In the past year I have demonstrated to you that now again we are confronted with a fundamental paradigmatic shift regarding the answer of our basic question for the meaning of life.

Who still believes that man is primarily the product of his rational thinking, is wrong. Subconsciously, we take numerous decisions. The idea that we are the rationally calculating person, who decides based on free will, is taken from us.

Many contemporary psychologist, neuroscientist are now convinced that the homo sapiens mainly is a bag of primary emotions, which are the real, often subconscious drive behind his actions.

In relation to the almost 2 million years of our evolution as homo sapiens in a relatively short time of hardly 500 years we moved from the center of the universe and the stewards of creation to being a sometimes even harmful part of the ecosystem of this planet.

Actually not a bad achievement to put us in our right place in relatively such a short time. Wow…"right place" ???? That really is a big assumption !!!

Yes, that will be our next target. What to do with this avalanche of neurobiological data, with the thesis "We are our brain". Till today we have kept the real philosophical questions in the background.

It was a pragmatic choice, so that I could present to you all these new data about the brain / mind which had emerged since the 80s. But that is over now. We have heard enough.

The next series of lectures will focus on our main theme: the philosophy of mind. All that science looks so convincing and has an enormous impact on our ideas about the meaning of life.

But is it philosophically all that simple and straightforward. Will it be the neuroscientists, who tell us that philosophy (of Mind) is dead? I don't think so….

The Discussion
[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: The floor is yours
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very good
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: interesting
[13:28] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:28] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:28] herman Bergson: thank you....
[13:29] Adriana Jinn: thank you herman
[13:29] herman Bergson: But the show still has to begin now..:-)
[13:29] Adriana Jinn: real interesting herman
[13:29] herman Bergson: Now we go for the real thing!
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:29] Adriana Jinn: yes
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: can be interesting
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: the things before was for sure
[13:29] herman Bergson: Oh yes Bejiita...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: )
[13:29] Qwark Allen: getting more interesting even
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: a
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i actually heard a neurobiologist say that he believes that the current developments in internet tech is actually changing the shape of the brain... allowing a better ability to focus and change from one thing to another in the mind more quickly
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry! for 2 lines
[13:30] Doodus Moose: once i see how a special effect is done in the movies, it seems less "magic" - i hope this won't be the same for our minds
[13:30] herman Bergson smiles
[13:30] herman Bergson: You have that privilege Gemma !
[13:30] Adriana Jinn: smiles doodus
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:31] herman Bergson: But what the man said is bull in my opinion :-)
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
[13:31] herman Bergson: No..Dooodus...
[13:31] herman Bergson: I think that after all the neuro science info....
[13:31] herman Bergson: philosophy will show you that the mind is more magic than science can tell!
[13:32] Doodus Moose:
[13:32] Doodus Moose: i'll continue to insist i'm worth more than the sum of my parts :-)
[13:32] herman Bergson: that is the whole point Doodus!!!!!
[13:33] herman Bergson: You are more than the sum of your neurons...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Just be patient...
[13:33] herman Bergson: When we try to understand consciousness in relation to the brain...
[13:34] herman Bergson: such a tough problem.. !
[13:34] Qwark Allen: we`ll get there
[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Qwark..
[13:34] herman Bergson: I'l start at the beginning...
[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not sure the more we learn the more questions we seem to have
[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is no end
[13:35] Qwark Allen: that is a good sign always
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:35] Adriana Jinn: smiles
[13:35] herman Bergson: No Gemma..if there were, we would be just machines...
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:35] herman Bergson: clockworks.....and maybe orange too then
[13:36] Doodus Moose: the logical conclusion is: we're confronted with a near-infinity of unanswered questions just before death :-)
[13:36] Doodus Moose: ... then we get the answer to everything :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Doodus
[13:37] herman Bergson: well after death...I'd prefer to be just dead...
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:37] Adriana Jinn: smiles
[13:37] Doodus Moose: dead? seems like such a waste of time
[13:37] herman Bergson: no ado about answers and questions plz :-)
[13:37] herman Bergson: a waste of time????
[13:38] herman Bergson: Just imagine that after death you have to live for eternity...!!!!!
[13:38] herman Bergson: thta would drive me mad...!
[13:38] oola Neruda: all men are mortal
[13:38] Doodus Moose: i'm looking forwards to my own personal "millenium falcon"
[13:38] Alaya Kumaki: well, if its not eternity it might be as here
[13:38] herman Bergson: You got it oola...Simone de Beauvoir!
[13:38] oola Neruda: nods
[13:38] Adriana Jinn: but perhaps have to learn lots of thing after ?
[13:38] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): sorry i have to go..thank you Herman
[13:39] herman Bergson: take care Beertje ^_^
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you soon
[13:39] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:39] Doodus Moose: take care, Gemma
[13:39] Adriana Jinn: bye bye beerje
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: cberg
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not me .. beertje
[13:40] herman Bergson: well...
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye, Bejiiita :-)
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hugs
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!
[13:40] Qwark Allen: ehehhehe
[13:40] herman Bergson: I think we are ready for phase 2 then!
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hm yes
[13:40] Adriana Jinn: yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: HEy..Itsme is here too!!!!
[13:41] Qwark Allen: ㋡ ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Helloooooo! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:41] Qwark Allen: Hey! ITSME
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: lol
[13:41] herman Bergson: hey man..where have you been...
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: funny name,:))
[13:41] oola Neruda: hey Itsme
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: hi^^
[13:41] Adriana Jinn: hi
[13:41] itsme Frederix: I've been existing
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum accepted your inventory offer.
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: h Itsme
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: do you live at itsmeland?
[13:41] itsme Frederix: hi all
[13:41] itsme Frederix: glad to see you, but please continue
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hey!!! itsyou!!! good to see you!!
[13:42] herman Bergson: well...I think we dealt with all problems of the world now Itsme..:-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: We are done
[13:42] herman Bergson: all is well :-)
[13:43] itsme Frederix: so I came in the right time
[13:43] Doodus Moose: time to get all smoky......byeeee!!!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: unless you still have a question, of course ^_^
[13:43] itsme Frederix: I would not dare
[13:43] herman Bergson: good!
[13:43] Alaya Kumaki: i do have one, only, can i havea copy paste of yur today s text?
[13:43] herman Bergson: Then I thank you all for your participation ...^_^
[13:43] Alaya Kumaki: because i arrive late
[13:44] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: Hooo!!!
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: Hoooo!
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it will all be in the blog
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i must go :-(((( tysm! herman and class!! see u tuesday
[13:44] Qwark Allen: looking foward for tuesday
[13:44] herman Bergson: Have a nice weekend you all:-)
[13:44] Qwark Allen: :-)))
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: bye bye and thank so much
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you too
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: this was nice for sure
[13:44] herman Bergson: See you all next Tuesday...
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: same to you herman
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: euntil next time cu ㋡
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye+ all
[13:44] herman Bergson: And Gemma..you are excuses when being late
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: bye bye for now
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum:
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: .,¡i|¹i¡¡i¹|i¡,. .,¡i|¹i¡¡i¹|i¡,.
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: `'¹li¡|¡|¡il¹'` `'¹li¡|¡|¡il¹'`
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum:
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: have a nice end of evening
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:46] herman Bergson: lol...Adriana...
[13:47] herman Bergson: A pitty you missed the lecture Itsme..

334: The materialist Brain 2

To say that everything is material sound rather simple and obvious. However, in the hands of philosophers such a statements shows to be not so simple as it looks like.

Philosophers and scientists have had various views regarding the constitution and behavior of material objects

and over whether every material thing is a body, or whether forces, or waves, or fields of force are also realities in their own right.

To begin with we could define a material thing as a being possessing many physical properties and no other properties.

A possible list of properties: position in space and time, size, shape, duration, mass, velocity, solidity, inertia, electric charge, spin, rigidity, temperature, hardness, magnetic field intensity, and the like.

Note that I say at the end of the list "and the like". We can not exclude the possibility that we discover new physical properties.

In other words, we have no fully determinate answer to what a material thing is. So what is a materialist claiming, when he says "there only exists matter"?

This looks like a problem for a materialist, but it isn't that bad. There is a broad consensus on which properties are physical properties.

Therefore when a new property would be discovered it would readily classified as a physical property and not as some anomaly. If that were the case more research is required only.

For extreme versions of materialism the psychological characteristics people ascribe to themselves and to one another—consciousness, purposiveness, aspiration, desire, for example—are not considered to be physical properties.

This is an interesting point, for just suppose that we say that consciousness IS a property of matter. The contemporary philosopher of mind, David Chalmers (1966- …) for instance, holds that view.

We will discuss his ideas later. The term that goes along with such views is panpsychism, or as Chalmers calls it: "panprotopsychism".

As I remarked in the previous lecture, for the materialist there is no second class of nonmaterial beings, like Descartes had suggested.

There are no incorporeal souls or spirits, no spiritual principalities or powers, no angels or devils, no demiurges and no gods , if these are conceived as immaterial entities. Hence, nothing that happens can be attributed to the action of such beings.

An other fundamental point of view of the materialist is: “Everything that can be explained can be explained on the basis of laws involving only the relevant physical conditions.”

This too leads to interesting discussions, for you are ready now to conclude that a materialist must be a determinist too.

Determinism means that everything that happens is a link in an infinite chain of causes and effects. If that is so, then whatever we do is caused too, not freely chosen.

Here we touch on the issue of the existence of free will. Due to neurobiological findings nowadays you hear the claim, that free will is only an illusion. We definitely will discuss this matter too!

Recently, the appeal of determinism has been weakened by the development and success of quantum theory, and many contemporary materialists are not committed to determinism.

Materialism has been, traditionally, a minority view, indeed a rather daring and scandalous one, but it has made considerable progress over the past century, particularly among educated European peoples.

So it will be interesting to pay some attention to the history of materialism too and learn why it has gotten a broader acceptance today.


The Discussion


[2011/06/09 13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you..
[2011/06/09 13:21] herman Bergson: The floor is yours now....:-)
[2011/06/09 13:21] Bejiita Imako: oki
[2011/06/09 13:22] Zevio Droz: how does materialism imply determinism
[2011/06/09 13:22] herman Bergson: causality Zevio...
[2011/06/09 13:23] Mick Nerido: The material world is also energy as in E=MCsquared
[2011/06/09 13:23] herman Bergson: every cause has its fixed effect
[2011/06/09 13:23] Zevio Droz: i see
[2011/06/09 13:23] herman Bergson: if the effect is a fixed thing ..there is no choice...
[2011/06/09 13:24] herman Bergson: no free will
[2011/06/09 13:24] herman Bergson: .
[2011/06/09 13:24] Zevio Droz: have they found particles or the like that act completely randomly?
[2011/06/09 13:24] herman Bergson: yes..
[2011/06/09 13:25] herman Bergson: quantum mechanics
[2011/06/09 13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is a good question zevio
[2011/06/09 13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah
[2011/06/09 13:25] Zevio Droz: neurobiology
[2011/06/09 13:26] herman Bergson: well...the basic idea is...
[2011/06/09 13:26] herman Bergson: that the behavior of some atom or neutron...I dont know..is literally unpredictable..
[2011/06/09 13:27] herman Bergson: it will decay..at some moment..but there is no physical law to predict that moment
[2011/06/09 13:27] herman Bergson: completely random...
[2011/06/09 13:27] Mick Nerido: uncertinty principle?
[2011/06/09 13:27] Bejiita Imako: its like schrödinger's cat
[2011/06/09 13:27] Bejiita Imako: u don't know the answer until you look but then you also affect
[2011/06/09 13:28] herman Bergson: so In neurobiology they refer to that basic atomic feature...
[2011/06/09 13:28] Zevio Droz: so are you talking about what consciousness is made out of?
[2011/06/09 13:28] Mick Nerido: Yes Bejiita, you cause a change just by looking
[2011/06/09 13:29] Bejiita Imako: thats why quantum encryption is unbreakable
[2011/06/09 13:29] herman Bergson: We'll discourse that issue when we are dealing with free will
[2011/06/09 13:29] herman Bergson: Consciousness is on the menu Zevio...
[2011/06/09 13:29] herman Bergson: But not yet being served :-)
[2011/06/09 13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[2011/06/09 13:30] Zevio Droz: ;p
[2011/06/09 13:30] Zevio Droz: it's possible to not have free will and free will still be possible
[2011/06/09 13:30] herman Bergson: First we have to understand contemporary thought about materialism...
[2011/06/09 13:30] Zevio Droz: ok
[2011/06/09 13:30] Alaya Kumaki: on the menu, but beeing created, maybe with all medias information we get a materially made grip to all what is going on
[2011/06/09 13:31] herman Bergson: It is fundament to our quest into the Mystery of the Brain
[2011/06/09 13:31] Zevio Droz: i'm trying to apply materialism to internal matters, did you have something else in mind?
[2011/06/09 13:32] herman Bergson: What do you mean Zevio?
[2011/06/09 13:32] Zevio Droz: if we live in a universe made solely of matter and all is determined i would like to know how that affects the mind, but i was wondering if you wanted to go in a different direction
[2011/06/09 13:32] Zevio Droz: and what that direction is
[2011/06/09 13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope it will all be clear at another class or classes
[2011/06/09 13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but as usual more questions :-)
[2011/06/09 13:34] herman Bergson: the issue of determinism and free will will be a whole chapter here in class
[2011/06/09 13:34] Zevio Droz: i'm confused about what the current discussion is
[2011/06/09 13:34] herman Bergson: Materialism...
[2011/06/09 13:35] herman Bergson: the statement that there is only one thing in this word: matter
[2011/06/09 13:35] Zevio Droz: do you have a question for the class concerning materialism that we can discuss?
[2011/06/09 13:35] herman Bergson: I guess you missed a few classes Zevio ^_*
[2011/06/09 13:35] Zevio Droz: oh i see
[2011/06/09 13:35] herman Bergson: Doesnt work that way....
[2011/06/09 13:36] herman Bergson: This is not a place for endless discussions about some question...
[2011/06/09 13:36] herman Bergson: I am teaching a course about the Mystery of the Brain...
[2011/06/09 13:36] Mick Nerido: The new cern accelerator will give us more information soon
[2011/06/09 13:37] Bejiita Imako: fully been running all day now
[2011/06/09 13:37] Sousinne Ceriano: Or DOOM US ALL! DOOM, I TELL YOU!!!
[2011/06/09 13:37] Alaya Kumaki: punishment and hope are the old ways to learn mick now, its not as that since we know more
[2011/06/09 13:37] herman Bergson: That would be great Mick if it helps us here :-)
[2011/06/09 13:37] Bejiita Imako: it works great
[2011/06/09 13:37] Bejiita Imako: we'll see
[2011/06/09 13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[2011/06/09 13:37] Zevio Droz: one reason i doubt materialism is near death experiences
[2011/06/09 13:37] Bejiita Imako: I am keeping an eye in that thing
[2011/06/09 13:38] Zevio Droz: call me superstitious
[2011/06/09 13:38] Zevio Droz: but there are people having really profound experiences either immediately before death or after death
[2011/06/09 13:38] herman Bergson: ok Zevio..you are superstiscious ^_^
[2011/06/09 13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• LOL ‚ô•
[2011/06/09 13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we always go back to the same questions
[2011/06/09 13:38] Zevio Droz: heh
[2011/06/09 13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): 'or new ones
[2011/06/09 13:38] Qwark Allen: hypersticious
[2011/06/09 13:39] herman Bergson: Yes ..Gemma ..isnt it funny..:-)
[2011/06/09 13:39] Sousinne Ceriano: While in a near death experience, you still have all your memories, your associations and so on. Why should experiencing something like that mean it's true? Do our senses truly go that far?
[2011/06/09 13:39] Zevio Droz: it doesn't mean it's true, but it means that the brain is able to create a vivid reality independent of the physical world
[2011/06/09 13:39] Sousinne Ceriano: After all, your brain is breaking down. A few weird experiences should not be unexpected...
[2011/06/09 13:40] Zevio Droz: just as vivid as life
[2011/06/09 13:40] herman Bergson: The near death experience is already completely understood in neurobiology...
[2011/06/09 13:40] Zevio Droz: i see
[2011/06/09 13:40] Sousinne Ceriano: Or... just as vivid as your imagination, fired by neurotransmitter bursts from dying neurons
[2011/06/09 13:40] herman Bergson: They can give you that expierience in no time with electrodes on your head
[2011/06/09 13:41] Mick Nerido: A stiff drink works also
[2011/06/09 13:41] Sousinne Ceriano: It's what XTC does... it fires your neuronal supply of transmitter substance.
[2011/06/09 13:41] herman Bergson: the idea that you experience something supernatural or so in a near death experience is complete nonsense
[2011/06/09 13:41] Zevio Droz: ok then how can a human distinguish any sort of "supernatural" experience if it can all be blamed on the brain
[2011/06/09 13:41] Zevio Droz: so then you're a materialist
[2011/06/09 13:41] Sousinne Ceriano: I am so glad you asked that, Zevio =)
[2011/06/09 13:42] herman Bergson: start reading to begin with lecture 266 Zevio :-)
[2011/06/09 13:42] Sousinne Ceriano: The answer is, of course, that EVERYTHING we experience is experienced directly because of our brain.
[2011/06/09 13:42] Sousinne Ceriano: And if we can experience it, it's not supernatural at all.
[2011/06/09 13:43] Mick Nerido: What about dreams?
[2011/06/09 13:43] herman Bergson: there is no supernatural....
[2011/06/09 13:43] herman Bergson: Dreams? Random brain activity while sleeping Mick
[2011/06/09 13:43] Sousinne Ceriano: Whether it's the voice of God, near death experiences, or oneness with the ALL, or anything else.
[2011/06/09 13:43] Zevio Droz: call it the natural then
[2011/06/09 13:44] Sousinne Ceriano: Indeed.
[2011/06/09 13:44] herman Bergson: All rubbish Sousinne :-)
[2011/06/09 13:44] Zevio Droz: well then thats the discussion then
[2011/06/09 13:44] herman Bergson: We have to stick to the facts...
[2011/06/09 13:44] Sousinne Ceriano: And if we're at "natural" rather than "supernatural", then considering the case for the existence of a God becomes MUCH easier.
[2011/06/09 13:45] herman Bergson: With all due respect Sousinne
[2011/06/09 13:45] herman Bergson: But that weird idea...people call god...where does it come from???
[2011/06/09 13:46] Qwark Allen: must be very old idea
[2011/06/09 13:46] herman Bergson: Except of course it is part of our culture historically
[2011/06/09 13:46] herman Bergson: Bu tthe idea makes no sense at all...
[2011/06/09 13:46] druth Vlodovic: human nature to fear the unknown and want methods of controlling the world
[2011/06/09 13:46] Mick Nerido: God only knows
[2011/06/09 13:46] Sousinne Ceriano: The human brain has evolved to be able to feel AWE. Awe is something that puts us in mind of belonging, purpose and group-think.
[2011/06/09 13:47] herman Bergson: oh yes Druth,,,,that is of course a reason
[2011/06/09 13:47] Sousinne Ceriano: It makes us feel small, irrelevant... and thus makes us ONLY a part of something bigger.
[2011/06/09 13:47] herman Bergson: hold on....
[2011/06/09 13:47] herman Bergson: That idea...
[2011/06/09 13:47] Sousinne Ceriano: It probably has been important for some reason or other.
[2011/06/09 13:47] herman Bergson: that we feel small...
[2011/06/09 13:48] druth Vlodovic: or makes us feel integrated with something bigger, in the same scale as the world, or even bigger
[2011/06/09 13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Well depends on whether you are looking out at space or down at insects
[2011/06/09 13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): insects*
[2011/06/09 13:48] herman Bergson: yes Gemma :-)
[2011/06/09 13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah
[2011/06/09 13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes
[2011/06/09 13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or microbes in a scope
[2011/06/09 13:48] Qwark Allen: good point, i was only thinking in space
[2011/06/09 13:48] herman Bergson: Our brain produces all the ideas we have...
[2011/06/09 13:48] Sousinne Ceriano: As we grew up as a species, we clothed the feeling of awe in spiritual, then religious, terms.
[2011/06/09 13:49] Qwark Allen: now i feel a gigant! ty gemma :-)
[2011/06/09 13:49] herman Bergson: the God idea is a way to understand life..feel comfortable with it...
[2011/06/09 13:49] Sousinne Ceriano: Ending up with the concept of GOD.
[2011/06/09 13:49] Qwark Allen: :-)
[2011/06/09 13:49] herman Bergson: We can accept the most cruel experiences with the words..Yes ..it was the will of god...
[2011/06/09 13:49] Bejiita Imako: hahah
[2011/06/09 13:50] Sousinne Ceriano: But the words are meaningless.
[2011/06/09 13:50] Sousinne Ceriano: The feeling is the relevant part.
[2011/06/09 13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): perhaps to you but not to others
[2011/06/09 13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): depends on belief
[2011/06/09 13:50] druth Vlodovic: easier, for me, to say "that just happened, there is no god causing it" but I walked a long way to get there
[2011/06/09 13:50] herman Bergson: That is the point Gemma..
[2011/06/09 13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
[2011/06/09 13:51] Alaya Kumaki: why do we need to define, what it is, when there is nothing to say, but to observe what we can and let go what we can't see
[2011/06/09 13:51] Bejiita Imako: aaa guess so
[2011/06/09 13:51] Zevio Droz: the only real "evidence" is experiential evidence
[2011/06/09 13:51] Sousinne Ceriano: No? I would think me and they feel the same thing, we need it just the same... but we dress that feeling in different clothes.
[2011/06/09 13:51] Zevio Droz: it depends on if you find that valid or not
[2011/06/09 13:51] Qwark Allen: seems we are all mindless
[2011/06/09 13:51] Qwark Allen: no one so far could measure a mind
[2011/06/09 13:51] Qwark Allen: yet we have one
[2011/06/09 13:52] herman Bergson: We will get to that Qwark....
[2011/06/09 13:52] Sousinne Ceriano: Zevio: experiential evidence THAT YOU CAN SHARE.
[2011/06/09 13:52] herman Bergson: Will be a long way perhaps..but we get to that!
[2011/06/09 13:52] Sousinne Ceriano: Feeling the touch of God proves only that your brain is capable of giving you that experience.
[2011/06/09 13:52] druth Vlodovic: I have to be off, have fun all, and thank you Herman
[2011/06/09 13:53] herman Bergson: Be well Druth
[2011/06/09 13:53] Qwark Allen: not because our rudimentary science can`t explain or test, doesn`t mean it is not logical or that not exist
[[2011/06/09 13:54] Zevio Droz: i think the human species is too young to jump to conclusions about these things
[2011/06/09 13:54] herman Bergson: That is a tricky statement Qwark....
[2011/06/09 13:54] Zevio Droz: we think we know everything at this point
[2011/06/09 13:54] Bejiita Imako: for sure there is more to discover
[2011/06/09 13:54] Qwark Allen: sometimes i see us here saying that if we can test, it`s real, if not it`s a question of believe
[2011/06/09 13:54] herman Bergson: To say that...what science cant explain can yet exist...
[2011/06/09 13:54] herman Bergson: that is opening Pandora's box..
[2011/06/09 13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well it is
[2011/06/09 13:54] Qwark Allen: but the science we have it`s not that sophisticated
[2011/06/09 13:54] Zevio Droz: i see
[2011/06/09 13:54] Sousinne Ceriano: professor...
[2011/06/09 13:55] Qwark Allen: will be in the futur
[2011/06/09 13:55] Sousinne Ceriano: You can still make epidemiological research.
[2011/06/09 13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is true too
[2011/06/09 13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): both are true
[2011/06/09 13:55] Bejiita Imako: ah
[2011/06/09 13:55] Sousinne Ceriano: If God is claimed to heal the sick... we can test what frequency it happens at.
[2011/06/09 13:56] herman Bergson: Based on Qwark 's statement...everything can exist..whatever you think of
[2011/06/09 13:56] Mick Nerido: My senses tell me the earth is flat...
[2011/06/09 13:56] Sousinne Ceriano: There are methods that do not require us to understand a concept to measure it.
[2011/06/09 13:56] herman Bergson: It never happens Sousinne
[2011/06/09 13:56] Qwark Allen: +/-
[2011/06/09 13:57] Zevio Droz: it is a pandoras box
[2011/06/09 13:57] Sousinne Ceriano: It doesn't. But if there was a significant difference between, say, believers and nonbelievers in "miraculous recoveries", there would be a case for God.
[2011/06/09 13:57] herman Bergson: On of the best discussions ever, my friends...
[2011/06/09 13:58] herman Bergson looks at his watch...
[2011/06/09 13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[2011/06/09 13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh have to go!
[2011/06/09 13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ‚ô•
[2011/06/09 13:58] herman Bergson: Time to dismiss class
[2011/06/09 13:58] Bejiita Imako: ok
[2011/06/09 13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you next thurs
[2011/06/09 13:58] Sousinne Ceriano: Thank you professor, and sorry for being late.
[2011/06/09 13:58] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu
[2011/06/09 13:58] Zevio Droz: :)
[2011/06/09 13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): maybe tuesday depending
[2011/06/09 13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation..
[2011/06/09 13:58] Bejiita Imako: nice once again
[2011/06/09 13:58] Bejiita Imako: „ã°
[2011/06/09 13:58] Mick Nerido: Thanks professor
[2011/06/09 13:58] Bejiita Imako: interesting subjects
[2011/06/09 13:58] herman Bergson: You are excused sousinne :-)
[2011/06/09 13:58] MultiMuse: thank you for the lecture.
[2011/06/09 13:58] Zevio Droz: seeya herman
[2011/06/09 13:59] Sousinne Ceriano: bye people

333: The materialist Brain 1

Today we have arrived at a quintessential point in our quest into the Mystery of the Brain. Today we'll begin the study of materialism.

We can start with two questions:
1. What does it MEAN to say that everything is physical?
You could call this an ontological question. We ask what there is in reality.

and
2. Is it TRUE to say that everything is physical?
This you could regard as an epistemological question. Here we ask how we can obtain knowledge of the material world.

The first question, depending on the emphasis, can be understood in two ways.
One: What does it mean that EVERYTHING is physical
Two: what does it mean that everything is PHYSICAL.

As an ontology materialism has along history as I mentioned in the previous lecture, not only in Western philosophy, but also in Indian philosophy.

In both cultures it is scorned by all kinds of religious groups. From their perspective for good reasons of course. There is no room for the supernatural in a physical world.

In many previous lectures I have shown you by explaining the phenomenon of our Supersense and by showing results of brain research and neurobiological findings, how we can interpret supernatural things in a material world.

Let me start with a general description of this ontological position. Eventually I hope to give you an acceptable answer to our two questions.

Materialism is the general theory that the ultimate constituents of reality are material or physical bodies, elements or processes.

It is a form of monism in that it holds that everything in existence is reducible to what is material or physical in nature.

It is opposed to dualistic theories which claim that body and mind are distinct, and directly antithetical to a philosophical idealism that denies the existence of matter.

It is hostile to abstract objects, if these are viewed as more than just a manner of speaking .

An implication of materialism is that the diverse qualitative experiences we have are ultimately reducible to quantitative changes in objects or in our physiological functioning.

All the properties of things, including persons, are reducible to properties of matter.

Although the terms referring to psychic states such as intention, belief, desire and consciousness itself have a different sense and use than terms referring to material events,

a consistent materialist would deny that mentalistic
terms have reference to anything other than physical events or physiological changes in our brains.

The enormous advances in the sciences have contributed storehouses of empirical data that are often used to support materialism. I already have presented a lot of this evidence to you.


Many philosophers have been attracted to materialism both because of its reductive simplicity and its association with scientific knowledge.

So, let's investigate what materialism has to offer and how tenable this viewpoint regarding ourselves and the world around us is.


The discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you.....
[13:24] herman Bergson: If you have any question or remark...the floor is yours as always :-)
[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: smile..without our material body we have no idea of supersense
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: wb Berg
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty...
[13:25] Mick Nerido: Materilists would say there is ONLY the body
[13:25] herman Bergson: Supersense is just a name for our inclination to believe in the supernatural
[13:26] herman Bergson: Mr. STevens!!!!!!
[13:26] herman Bergson: This is not a dancehall
[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: hm..one can say a lot words.. but as mentioned in former lectures..this doesn't proof the contrary:)
[13:26] Evie1: lol
[13:26] Evie1: Put bluntly, the view is just this: Everything that actually exists is material, or physical.
[13:26] Stevens Beaumont: i am sorry
[13:26] Stevens Beaumont: i stop immediately
[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: steve..lokk for stop all animations:9
[13:27] herman Bergson: move it...plz!!! go outside!
[13:27] Mick Nerido: Yes Evie
[13:27] Evie1: I think he is moving it
[13:27] druth Vlodovic: ok, one argument against non-materialism, in regards to having souls, is the effect that physical/chemical changes to the brain can have on personality
[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: why is that against materialismedruth
[13:28] druth Vlodovic: presumably a spirit/soul would have it's own personality and be immune to physical alterations
[13:28] herman Bergson: What do you mean by that Druth?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Baldur, my question too...
[13:28] druth Vlodovic: um, I meant the opposite
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: grin no reason to yellat her....
[13:29] Mick Nerido: There is no scientific evidence for anything behind the material world
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: smile..mick ..may be scientific evidence is not all the answers?
[13:30] Evie1: The ontological doctrine that states that everything that exists is, or depends on, matter ....
[13:30] druth Vlodovic: you're just afraid of excess electrons finding your computer
[13:30] Mick Nerido: true Baldur
[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: well evie we can't deny mater
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm frying the drive is no good
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Evie1 ...what actually exists is only matter
[13:31] herman Bergson: and states the matter is in
[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: no what we can see as exsistant is matter...
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: wehat our senses can't grasp .. could be there too
[13:32] herman Bergson: We'll elaborate on this subject enough to understand the strong and weak points of this ontology
[13:33] herman Bergson: .
[13:33] herman Bergson: It probably doesn't seem to bother you at all that the supernatural is trashed???!
[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: smile..but we have to use our mind -brain with what its got..and that is matter...
[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: not trashed..just kept aside as long as we don't know more
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Baldur...that matters a lot :-))
[13:34] herman Bergson: ohh....
[13:34] Mick Nerido: Belief is different then proof
[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: so we should stick to the matter and leave the supernaturalxoption open:9
[13:35] herman Bergson: You expect knowledge of the supernatural in the future, Baldur?
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: I guess
[13:35] Evie1: does materialism mean the end of spirituality ?
[13:35] herman Bergson: That is an odd idea....leave the supernatural open
[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. i never expect anything..but thingsxmight happen......
[13:35] herman Bergson: That depends Evie1....
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: for one thin we can for example deny the supernatural properties of magic
[13:35] druth Vlodovic: spirituality can be the exploration of self and finding peace and meaning in your life
[13:36] druth Vlodovic: without the inherent politics of religion
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: cause thats breaking of physical laws and that we know is impossible
[13:36] herman Bergson: ontologically yes, as a psychological feature of the brain no
[13:36] herman Bergson: Our brain is wired in such a way, that we are just inclined to believe in supernatural things
[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: bej... quantum physics have no physical law exlanation:9
[13:37] herman Bergson: this is based on the feature of the brain/mind....to want to see structure in its environment....the drive to explain...
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: qantum physics is a bit strange but still to magic
[13:37] Evie1: hmmmm
[13:37] herman Bergson: and where there is no explanation..the mind comes up with one
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but what quantum physics is is fixed numbers with nothing in between
[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: well herman when man started to think.. abstract-he could think of everything.. even supernatural
[13:38] druth Vlodovic: the supernatural is usually simpler and more satisfying than the real
[13:38] Mick Nerido: It's a good story
[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: smile bej-the nothing in between is the interesting point:)
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Druth....that is what makes it so attractive...
[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: like good sex druth?
[13:39] Evie1: The mind governing all has another vibration within the whole aspect. The mind focuses our energies to a material outcome of all our experiences. Or it focuses for a spiritual outcome of our experiences. The two seldom work together to produce an outcome of growth within the spirit.
[13:39] druth Vlodovic: umm
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: i d say supernaturality is so our brains can get relaxed and not think itself to pieces about things we cant understand for the moment
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: then we make up our own explanations and rest our minds on them
[13:39] herman Bergson: I would agree Bejiita :-)
[13:40] BALDUR Joubert: explanation is the word bej...,language and communication
[13:40] herman Bergson: .
[13:40] Evie1: but when we focus on the material things we forget about the spiritual side
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:40] Mick Nerido: We are finite beings in an infinite universe..
[13:40] herman Bergson: I wouldn't agree with that Mick....
[13:41] Mick Nerido: smiles
[13:41] herman Bergson: Infinity is a concept created by our own mind.....not by definition something that exists
[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: now..we all werre babies once..what did we focus on....and what did our ancestors- say 1000000 years ago focus on..
[13:41] Evie1: true
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ahö
[13:42] Mick Nerido: I know it is impossible to explain therefore the supernatural
[13:42] herman Bergson smiles
[13:42] druth Vlodovic: I suspect that we have connections to reality that we don't really know about
[13:42] Clerisse Beeswing: food shelter warmth important
[13:42] herman Bergson: maybe the concept of the infinite is the supernatural part of mathematics :-)
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: might be
[13:42] druth Vlodovic: they are finding that time and matter aren't fixed things, it would be odd if we evolved without the capacity to take advantage of that
[13:43] Mick Nerido: True herman
[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: take advantage? how -and for what?
[13:43] herman Bergson: Well...as you all see...
[13:43] herman Bergson: studying materialism is gonna be fun :-)
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hhe
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: might be for sure
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: sure..we'll be talking about ourselves:)
[13:44] herman Bergson: YEs Baldur...:-)
[13:44] herman Bergson: And we are bloody interesting people :-)
[13:44] CONNIE Eichel: hehe
[13:44] Clerisse Beeswing: true
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hehe yes
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:45] Evie1: So how can everything be physical ... surely it cannot be
[13:45] druth Vlodovic: I'm not convinced that all "supernatural" events have no basis in fact, but I'm not sure we need a "spirit realm" to explain it all
[13:45] Mick Nerido: Never boring!
[13:45] herman Bergson: Wait.....
[13:45] herman Bergson: Evie1
[13:45] Clerisse Beeswing: true in some ways
[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: isn't spirit realm a product we created druth?
[13:45] Evie1: call em Evie please ... smiles
[13:45] herman Bergson: Why can it not be the case that everything is physical?
[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: like shower cream'
[13:46] herman Bergson: Where does the idea come from that it cant be so?
[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: easy...from not understanding.......
[13:47] druth Vlodovic: from wanting meaning and purpose
[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: but able to think about it
[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: and due to communication
[13:47] herman Bergson: then the supernatural is just our imagination...
[13:47] Evie1: hmmm I meat everything has to be physical sorry (including consciousness
[13:47] herman Bergson: That is ok with me....
[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: that can't be the conclusion herman....
[13:48] herman Bergson: ohhhhhhh....consciousness.......
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: we used to imagine people flying through the air, silly really
[13:48] herman Bergson: Still a big big hurdle to take Evie!
[13:48] herman Bergson: .
[13:48] herman Bergson: on brooms, Druth?
[13:49] druth Vlodovic: ok, I haven't gotten my broom up to speed yet :)
[13:49] BALDUR Joubert: well i think we should stick to the question: what does materialism mean to philosophy.. old and new
[13:49] herman Bergson: I have a Nimbus 2000 ^_^
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:49] BALDUR Joubert: if we accept it. shall we ignore plato and aristoteles'
[13:50] CONNIE Eichel: :)
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Flying is physical now was only imaginary to our ancestors
[13:50] druth Vlodovic: lucky
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: lol cool herman
[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes Mick...they just envied the birds
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: im unsure if id dare to fly on a small stick
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: seems not stable at all
[13:51] BALDUR Joubert: with druth i would:)
[13:51] herman Bergson grins at Baldur
[13:51] CONNIE Eichel: hehe
[13:51] herman Bergson: Don't be so obvious Baldur ^_^
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:51] BALDUR Joubert: grins..i thought i said something more intelligent before :)
[13:51] druth Vlodovic: you stay away from small sticks Baldur
[13:52] herman Bergson: But I share your opinion tho :-))
[13:52] BALDUR Joubert: ok druth... sigh
[13:52] herman Bergson: Ok...I think we are all set for this new chapter....
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: gess so
[13:52] herman Bergson: Baldur has to take off on his broom I guess....so time to dismiss class
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation and nice discussion
[13:53] Clerisse Beeswing: ahhh I just got here
[13:53] druth Vlodovic: thank you herman
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: another interesting time here ㋡
[13:53] CONNIE Eichel: great class professor :)
[13:53] herman Bergson: I am sorry Clerisse....
[13:53] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman it was very intersting:)
[13:53] Clerisse Beeswing: thanks professor
[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you Beertje and CONNIE
[13:53] CONNIE Eichel: :)
[13:54] CONNIE Eichel: time to go now, kisses :)
[13:54] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye Connie
[13:54] herman Bergson: Bye CONNIE
[13:54] CONNIE Eichel: bye bye :)
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ok cu all soon again
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman:-)) and ty class! see u thursday
[13:57] BALDUR Joubert: well..may bei shouldl.ea veyou with the girls herman:)
[13:58] druth Vlodovic: I dunno, is it safe?
[13:58] BALDUR Joubert: lol... you asking me for my opinion?
[13:58] herman Bergson: Ohhh....you are right Baldur...you are the only man left next to me :-)
[13:59] BALDUR Joubert: ok i get the maessage lol
[13:59] herman Bergson: Look at that...another girl... Hi oola ^_^
[13:59] oola Neruda: hi herman

323: The Philosopher, the Brain and the Soul

The reason that I paid a lot of attention to neurobiological and evolutionary facts and theories about the brain, is a logical consequence of my first premise:

There is nothing else in this world but matter. We'll not discuss the nature of matter now, whether atoms are meant , even smaller particles or molecules.

But the basic implication is, that I assume that there does not exist some kind of non-material substance in our universe.

Yet a lot of people have a strong belief, that exactly that stuff DOES exist. To elucidate the meaning of this fact, I discussed with you our Supersense and how the brain is inclined to jump to quick conclusions.

Important source of information was the book of Bruce Hood, "Supersense: Why we believe in the unbelievable" , New York 2009.

The next step was to show a number of tricks the brain can play, of which a number were regarded as supernatural phenomena and powers.

Main source of information here was the book by Lone Frank, "Den femte revolution: Fortaellingerfra hjernens tidsalder", Kopenhagen 2007.

I may be able to understand five languages, but not Danish ^_^ … I used a Dutch translation. English titles by Lone Frank are "Mindfield: How Brain Science is Changing Our World " (Apr 1, 2009).

My guess is that this is the translation of the title of 2007 and "The Neurotourist: Postcards from the Edge of Brain Science "(Jul 16, 2011)

A third step was to focus on the evolution of the brain. Among other sourcesI used the book by Mark Nelissen, "De Brein Machine". Tielt (2008). (The Brain Machine)

I have no knowledge of an English translation of this Dutch book, or actually Flemish book.

During this whole exercise, which covered about a 1000 pages of literature, the concepts of consciousness and the Self were mentioned, but deliberately not fathomed.

I think, that by now the picture of the brain, based on the premise that the brain is the mind, has been worked on long enough for the time being.

We really need to make the philosophical turn and ask ourselves… What do these neurobiologists and Evolutionary psychologists mean? What can be seen on fMRI scan… consciousness in action perhaps?

How do we have to interpret the findings of neurobiology? They bring us knowledge, definitely, but knowledge of what? Firing neurons, yes, but is that consciousness?

Tons of questions….. and one question I got in an e-mail from a friend. It was exactly the question of which I thought: YES, now the time has come to make the philosophical turn and this is really the best starting point.

My friend asked me the following question:
"Ok then...now for my question...Is the soul considered to be a part of the brain?"

My answer was thus:

Yes we have a brain and yes we have a mind and yes my basic quest is into the analysis of the relation between that brain and that mind.

There definitely is a causal relation between the two, for no brain means no mind. Some people bring in a third player in this game: the soul.

Strictly speaking the brain might be the mind, but the mind can't be the soul. In particular because some people believe, that the soul continues to exist when the mind is already gone.

It happened that the Pope himself has answered this question last week, when a mother asked him , if the soul of her son, who is 40 years in coma now, is still in his body, or already gone elsewhere.

According to the Pope the soul was still in the body. I wonder why and I wonder how the Pope knows this.

The soul has nothing to do with our morality, because this implies that it interacts with our brain/mind.

I can believe that there is an interaction of some sort between brain and mind, which shapes our behavior and actions, but I really have no idea how a soul would accomplish that.

The existence of a mind and a body already has burden us for centuries with dualism and weird ideas about how they interact. To add a soul to the team makes thing only less understandable.

And like the razor of Ockham goes: "Entia non sunt praeter necessitatem multiplicanda." which means "One should not unnecessarily multiply entities (postulated objects in a hypothesis)".

So I'll put heart and soul into the next chapter of our quest: The Philosophy of Mind.



The Discussion

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and then take them out
[13:28] herman Bergson: take out who..my heart and soul??? :-)
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:29] herman Bergson: Then you really must have missed some lectures Gemma..
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well you did not say "my heart and soul
[13:30] herman Bergson: for all previous lectures were what establish our heart and soul....the emotions :-)
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you said put heart and soul
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and i don't think you will do that
[13:30] Mick Nerido: Matter and energy are the same thing in our universe...
[13:30] herman Bergson: my last statement was to tease you ^_^
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:30] herman Bergson: and it worked :-)))
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:31] herman Bergson: That is exactly what we not gonna discuss Mick..:-)
[13:31] Doodus Moose: modern christianity loosely describes the soul as the "i want, i think, i feel" - those animalistic tendencies within the mind
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: well energy can transform into matter close to the speed of light like in the LHC, there u see the effect clearly
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: energy = masless matter = mass and the Higgs particle is making the difference its supposed
[13:32] Doodus Moose: we substitute "fleshly" for animalistic
[13:32] herman Bergson: If the physicists plz would be so kind to rest their case..:-)
[13:32] Mick Nerido: I mean another dualism in our world
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: so substance and no substance in general might be 2 sides of same coin
[13:33] herman Bergson: Let's get back to Doodus remark...
[13:33] herman Bergson: How the soul is descibed isn't that important…its existence is..
[13:34] Mick Nerido: I think it grew out of primitive mans explanation of how living is different than inanimate things
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: as i see it the soul is "something" that is "me" and the body is just some container
[13:35] herman Bergson: You remark , Mick brings us back to our lectures on supersense...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: the physical me
[13:36] herman Bergson: Let's stick to Mick's remark…
[13:36] Mick Nerido: I think soul also means breath
[13:36] herman Bergson: Did you ever talked to an inanimate object, Mick...?
[13:36] Mick Nerido: only when I drink too much
[13:37] herman Bergson: Your malfuntionin car or computer?
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:37] Zinzi Serevi: lol
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: I swear and bang machines that refuse to operate
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: bad patience
[13:37] herman Bergson: That is what I mean Bejiiita...
[13:37] herman Bergson: Our brain is easily inclined to put a soul in such machines
[13:38] herman Bergson: WAIT...!!!!
[13:38] herman Bergson: Read this!!!!
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes when the damn junkpile refuse to work and im in a hurry sometimes it feels like its trying to make me angry at will
[13:38] herman Bergson: Bejiita...just be silent…plz
[13:38] herman Bergson: your words...!
[13:38] herman Bergson: as i see it the soul is "something" that is "me" and the body is just some container
[13:39] herman Bergson: what you say there is exactly what Descartes has put in our minds...
[13:39] herman Bergson: a perfect example of dualism
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes sort of as i've heard about how it is defined
[13:39] Mick Nerido: That is what the Catholic church says also
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: oh yes..
[13:40] herman Bergson: the idea that there is on the one hand a body...the vehicle...and on the otherhand a......well...
[13:40] herman Bergson: name it....
[13:40] herman Bergson: a mind..
[13:40] Mick Nerido: We cannot disprove the soul exists
[13:40] herman Bergson: a soul..???
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and sometimed u might believe there is a bad soul in some machines
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: for ex today i played bowling and had a really good series, got over 200
[13:41] herman Bergson: oh yes...it is so deeply embedded in our minds..this way of thinking
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: during that series whenever i hit a stike 3 times in a row the machine didn't even start but shut itself of
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: like it was trying to disrupt my good game'
[13:41] herman Bergson: Bejiita...I really begin to worry about you ^_^
[13:41] Mick Nerido: Its like when you can be outside you body watching yourself
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but u gotta wonder
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: well then they are really bad servicing the things too so can be that as well
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: they are lazy theones running the centre
[13:42] Zinzi Serevi: what is the connection with the soul?
[13:42] herman Bergson: simple Zinzi....
[13:43] herman Bergson: there is no soul :-)
[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: i am simple
[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: that i already knew
[13:43] Mick Nerido: What about soul music?
[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: lol
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hhahaha yes i like that
[13:43] Doodus Moose:
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:43] herman Bergson: Mick....you should read that correctly....
[13:44] herman Bergson: soul music means So You Like Music
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hmm an acronym u mean
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ?
[13:44] Mick Nerido: ????
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: never thought of that
[13:45] Doodus Moose:
[13:45] herman Bergson grins
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:45] Zinzi Serevi: hahaha
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: but yes its good stuff
[13:45] herman Bergson: Just came to my mind..:-)
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: soft
[13:45] Mick Nerido: Soul like love is hard to explain
[13:46] herman Bergson: That is very nice Mick..but neither scientific or philosophical...that is the point...
[13:46] herman Bergson: we need hard evidence...
[13:47] herman Bergson: Bejiita formulated traditional dualism perfectly...
[13:47] Mick Nerido: I guess you are not my soul mate
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: *g*
[13:48] herman Bergson: Probaly not Mick, I am really sorry :-)
[13:48] Mick Nerido: lol
[13:48] herman Bergson: To be honest to you all...I have no soul at all:-)
[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we know
[13:48] Doodus Moose: you haven't given it to..... someone.
[13:48] herman Bergson smiles at Gemma
[13:48] LuckyXIII Luke: well there is no evidence that you do not have one....
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: lol
[13:49] herman Bergson: WOW..Thank you Lucky!!!
[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he believes he does not like those others believe they do
[13:49] herman Bergson: That definitely proofs I have one, doenst it..lol
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:49] LuckyXIII Luke: no it does not
[13:49] LuckyXIII Luke: either
[13:49] LuckyXIII Luke: I am sorry
[13:49] herman Bergson grins
[13:49] LuckyXIII Luke: but it can give you some hope
[13:50] herman Bergson: I was just teasing you Lucky
[13:50] LuckyXIII Luke: ah yes ;) and I you
[13:50] herman Bergson: great
[13:50] LuckyXIII Luke: :)
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Why do so many want there to be a soul?
[13:50] herman Bergson: I have no clue...
[13:50] herman Bergson: or yes..
[13:50] herman Bergson: afterlife...
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: maybe cause we summen up among soul what we feel and cannot explain
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: so when the mystery of brain is solved the concept soul gets different.
[13:51] herman Bergson: no..the soul is the way to an afterlife
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[13:51] herman Bergson: the body may die but the soul lives on...
[13:52] LuckyXIII Luke: well ....in the hebrew language
[13:52] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): the soul is a sort of backup ?
[13:52] LuckyXIII Luke: soul means the "whole" human
[13:52] herman Bergson: It is our way to understand and accept death
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: *g* thats nice siggi
[13:52] LuckyXIII Luke: not only like the old greeks "soul"
[13:52] LuckyXIII Luke: understood ...in a an dualistic way...
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes Siggi...got mine backuped on a DVD :-)
[13:53] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): yes like this
[13:53] Mick Nerido: Gotto go nice lecture bye
[13:53] Doodus Moose: bye Mick
[13:53] Zinzi Serevi: bye Mick
[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: bye mick
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu Mick
[13:54] herman Bergson: Well...time to dismiss class too...
[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): almost time to go
[13:54] herman Bergson: A nice discussion..
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: yes interesting subjects as always
[13:54] herman Bergson: Shows that we have got a lot of work to do
[13:54] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): yes thank you
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: is yes bejiita
[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: have a good time everyone - bye
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: now i need some action so i can tamper with the evil machines at work tomorrow
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: then its friday and my best friend comes over so they will not get to ruin my day
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:55] Zinzi Serevi: bye ciska
[13:55] herman Bergson: Enjoy Bejiita and have fun
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:55] LuckyXIII Luke: thank you Herman for all
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon agaun all ㋡
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: \o/
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: || Hoooo!
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: / \
[13:56] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): bye and good night
[[13:56] LuckyXIII Luke: good night all
[13:56] Zinzi Serevi: bye bye all of you
[13:56] Zinzi Serevi: thanks Herman
[13:56] Doodus Moose: Ray Kurzweil ( a futurist ) claims that our brains will not be capable of keeping up with the future faster pace of progress
[13:56] Doodus Moose: ...unless we have some sort of implant in our brain to help us out .
[13:57] Doodus Moose: take care everybody - till next week
[13:57] herman Bergson: that is a bit of a peculiar hypothesis... Doodus
[13:57] herman Bergson: Because it is our brain that creates that future...
[13:58] Doodus Moose: many brains are creating your future right now - and you have only 1 brain to process all their work
[13:58] herman Bergson: we will always have dumb and smart people Doodus...
[13:58] Doodus Moose: :-)
[13:59] herman Bergson: like society had laborers and rulers
[13:59] Doodus Moose: i've found i've had to increasingly specialize due to the amount of developments in my fields
[13:59] herman Bergson: the proletarians and the capitalists..
[14:00] Doodus Moose: there are whole topics i must ignore to feed others
[14:00] herman Bergson: the haves and have-nots
[14:00] Doodus Moose: indeed, philosophy is displacing something else
[14:00] Doodus Moose: i seem to be reaching a limit of sorts
[14:01] Doodus Moose: well - i'll let you loose to enjoy your evening.
[14:01] herman Bergson: Philosophers always displace things
[14:01] Doodus Moose: anyway - i'll let you go now
[14:02] herman Bergson: BE WELL DOODUS
[14:02] Doodus Moose: indeed, you too, sir
[14:02] Doodus Moose: (buy gold)