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The reason that I paid a lot of attention to neurobiological and evolutionary facts and theories about the brain, is a logical consequence of my first premise:There is nothing else in this world but matter. We'll not discuss the nature of matter now, whether atoms are meant , even smaller particles or molecules.But the basic implication is, that I assume that there does not exist some kind of non-material substance in our universe.Yet a lot of people have a strong belief, that exactly that stuff DOES exist. To elucidate the meaning of this fact, I discussed with you our Supersense and how the brain is inclined to jump to quick conclusions.Important source of information was the book of Bruce Hood, "Supersense: Why we believe in the unbelievable" , New York 2009.The next step was to show a number of tricks the brain can play, of which a number were regarded as supernatural phenomena and powers. Main source of information here was the book by Lone Frank, "Den femte revolution: Fortaellingerfra hjernens tidsalder", Kopenhagen 2007.I may be able to understand five languages, but not Danish ^_^ … I used a Dutch translation. English titles by Lone Frank are "Mindfield: How Brain Science is Changing Our World " (Apr 1, 2009). My guess is that this is the translation of the title of 2007 and "The Neurotourist: Postcards from the Edge of Brain Science "(Jul 16, 2011)A third step was to focus on the evolution of the brain. Among other sourcesI used the book by Mark Nelissen, "De Brein Machine". Tielt (2008). (The Brain Machine)I have no knowledge of an English translation of this Dutch book, or actually Flemish book.During this whole exercise, which covered about a 1000 pages of literature, the concepts of consciousness and the Self were mentioned, but deliberately not fathomed.I think, that by now the picture of the brain, based on the premise that the brain is the mind, has been worked on long enough for the time being.We really need to make the philosophical turn and ask ourselves… What do these neurobiologists and Evolutionary psychologists mean? What can be seen on fMRI scan… consciousness in action perhaps?How do we have to interpret the findings of neurobiology? They bring us knowledge, definitely, but knowledge of what? Firing neurons, yes, but is that consciousness?Tons of questions….. and one question I got in an e-mail from a friend. It was exactly the question of which I thought: YES, now the time has come to make the philosophical turn and this is really the best starting point.My friend asked me the following question:"Ok then...now for my question...Is the soul considered to be a part of the brain?"My answer was thus:Yes we have a brain and yes we have a mind and yes my basic quest is into the analysis of the relation between that brain and that mind. There definitely is a causal relation between the two, for no brain means no mind. Some people bring in a third player in this game: the soul. Strictly speaking the brain might be the mind, but the mind can't be the soul. In particular because some people believe, that the soul continues to exist when the mind is already gone. It happened that the Pope himself has answered this question last week, when a mother asked him , if the soul of her son, who is 40 years in coma now, is still in his body, or already gone elsewhere. According to the Pope the soul was still in the body. I wonder why and I wonder how the Pope knows this. The soul has nothing to do with our morality, because this implies that it interacts with our brain/mind. I can believe that there is an interaction of some sort between brain and mind, which shapes our behavior and actions, but I really have no idea how a soul would accomplish that.The existence of a mind and a body already has burden us for centuries with dualism and weird ideas about how they interact. To add a soul to the team makes thing only less understandable. And like the razor of Ockham goes: "Entia non sunt praeter necessitatem multiplicanda." which means "One should not unnecessarily multiply entities (postulated objects in a hypothesis)".So I'll put heart and soul into the next chapter of our quest: The Philosophy of Mind.The Discussion[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and then take them out[13:28] herman Bergson: take out who..my heart and soul??? :-)[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:29] herman Bergson: Then you really must have missed some lectures Gemma..[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well you did not say "my heart and soul[13:30] herman Bergson: for all previous lectures were what establish our heart and soul....the emotions :-)[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you said put heart and soul[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and i don't think you will do that[13:30] Mick Nerido: Matter and energy are the same thing in our universe...[13:30] herman Bergson: my last statement was to tease you ^_^[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:30] herman Bergson: and it worked :-)))[13:31] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:31] herman Bergson: That is exactly what we not gonna discuss Mick..:-)[13:31] Doodus Moose: modern christianity loosely describes the soul as the "i want, i think, i feel" - those animalistic tendencies within the mind[13:31] Bejiita Imako: well energy can transform into matter close to the speed of light like in the LHC, there u see the effect clearly[13:32] Bejiita Imako: energy = masless matter = mass and the Higgs particle is making the difference its supposed[13:32] Doodus Moose: we substitute "fleshly" for animalistic[13:32] herman Bergson: If the physicists plz would be so kind to rest their case..:-)[13:32] Mick Nerido: I mean another dualism in our world[13:32] Bejiita Imako: so substance and no substance in general might be 2 sides of same coin[13:33] herman Bergson: Let's get back to Doodus remark...[13:33] herman Bergson: How the soul is descibed isn't that important…its existence is..[13:34] Mick Nerido: I think it grew out of primitive mans explanation of how living is different than inanimate things[13:35] Bejiita Imako: as i see it the soul is "something" that is "me" and the body is just some container[13:35] herman Bergson: You remark , Mick brings us back to our lectures on supersense...[13:35] Bejiita Imako: the physical me[13:36] herman Bergson: Let's stick to Mick's remark…[13:36] Mick Nerido: I think soul also means breath[13:36] herman Bergson: Did you ever talked to an inanimate object, Mick...?[13:36] Mick Nerido: only when I drink too much[13:37] herman Bergson: Your malfuntionin car or computer?[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:37] Zinzi Serevi: lol[13:37] Bejiita Imako: I swear and bang machines that refuse to operate[13:37] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:37] Bejiita Imako: bad patience[13:37] herman Bergson: That is what I mean Bejiiita...[13:37] herman Bergson: Our brain is easily inclined to put a soul in such machines[13:38] herman Bergson: WAIT...!!!![13:38] herman Bergson: Read this!!!![13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes when the damn junkpile refuse to work and im in a hurry sometimes it feels like its trying to make me angry at will[13:38] herman Bergson: Bejiita...just be silent…plz[13:38] herman Bergson: your words...![13:38] herman Bergson: as i see it the soul is "something" that is "me" and the body is just some container[13:39] herman Bergson: what you say there is exactly what Descartes has put in our minds...[13:39] herman Bergson: a perfect example of dualism[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes sort of as i've heard about how it is defined[13:39] Mick Nerido: That is what the Catholic church says also[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes[13:40] herman Bergson: oh yes..[13:40] herman Bergson: the idea that there is on the one hand a body...the vehicle...and on the otherhand a......well...[13:40] herman Bergson: name it....[13:40] herman Bergson: a mind..[13:40] Mick Nerido: We cannot disprove the soul exists[13:40] herman Bergson: a soul..???[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and sometimed u might believe there is a bad soul in some machines[13:41] Bejiita Imako: for ex today i played bowling and had a really good series, got over 200[13:41] herman Bergson: oh yes...it is so deeply embedded in our minds..this way of thinking[13:41] Bejiita Imako: during that series whenever i hit a stike 3 times in a row the machine didn't even start but shut itself of[13:41] Bejiita Imako: like it was trying to disrupt my good game'[13:41] herman Bergson: Bejiita...I really begin to worry about you ^_^[13:41] Mick Nerido: Its like when you can be outside you body watching yourself[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but u gotta wonder[13:42] Bejiita Imako: well then they are really bad servicing the things too so can be that as well[13:42] Bejiita Imako: they are lazy theones running the centre[13:42] Zinzi Serevi: what is the connection with the soul?[13:42] herman Bergson: simple Zinzi....[13:43] herman Bergson: there is no soul :-)[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: i am simple[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: that i already knew[13:43] Mick Nerido: What about soul music?[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: lol[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hhahaha yes i like that[13:43] Doodus Moose: [13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:43] Bejiita Imako: lol[13:43] herman Bergson: Mick....you should read that correctly....[13:44] herman Bergson: soul music means So You Like Music[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hmm an acronym u mean[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ?[13:44] Mick Nerido: ????[13:44] Bejiita Imako: never thought of that[13:45] Doodus Moose: [13:45] herman Bergson grins[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:45] Zinzi Serevi: hahaha[13:45] Bejiita Imako: but yes its good stuff[13:45] herman Bergson: Just came to my mind..:-)[13:45] Bejiita Imako: soft[13:45] Mick Nerido: Soul like love is hard to explain[13:46] herman Bergson: That is very nice Mick..but neither scientific or philosophical...that is the point...[13:46] herman Bergson: we need hard evidence...[13:47] herman Bergson: Bejiita formulated traditional dualism perfectly...[13:47] Mick Nerido: I guess you are not my soul mate[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: *g*[13:48] herman Bergson: Probaly not Mick, I am really sorry :-)[13:48] Mick Nerido: lol[13:48] herman Bergson: To be honest to you all...I have no soul at all:-)[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we know[13:48] Doodus Moose: you haven't given it to..... someone.[13:48] herman Bergson smiles at Gemma[13:48] LuckyXIII Luke: well there is no evidence that you do not have one....[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: lol[13:49] herman Bergson: WOW..Thank you Lucky!!![13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he believes he does not like those others believe they do[13:49] herman Bergson: That definitely proofs I have one, doenst it..lol[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:49] LuckyXIII Luke: no it does not[13:49] LuckyXIII Luke: either[13:49] LuckyXIII Luke: I am sorry[13:49] herman Bergson grins[13:49] LuckyXIII Luke: but it can give you some hope[13:50] herman Bergson: I was just teasing you Lucky[13:50] LuckyXIII Luke: ah yes ;) and I you[13:50] herman Bergson: great[13:50] LuckyXIII Luke: :)[13:50] Mick Nerido: Why do so many want there to be a soul?[13:50] herman Bergson: I have no clue...[13:50] herman Bergson: or yes..[13:50] herman Bergson: afterlife...[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: maybe cause we summen up among soul what we feel and cannot explain[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: so when the mystery of brain is solved the concept soul gets different.[13:51] herman Bergson: no..the soul is the way to an afterlife[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: ;)[13:51] herman Bergson: the body may die but the soul lives on...[13:52] LuckyXIII Luke: well ....in the hebrew language[13:52] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): the soul is a sort of backup ?[13:52] LuckyXIII Luke: soul means the "whole" human[13:52] herman Bergson: It is our way to understand and accept death[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: *g* thats nice siggi[13:52] LuckyXIII Luke: not only like the old greeks "soul"[13:52] LuckyXIII Luke: understood ...in a an dualistic way...[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes Siggi...got mine backuped on a DVD :-)[13:53] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): yes like this[13:53] Mick Nerido: Gotto go nice lecture bye[13:53] Doodus Moose: bye Mick[13:53] Zinzi Serevi: bye Mick[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: bye mick[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu Mick[13:54] herman Bergson: Well...time to dismiss class too...[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): almost time to go[13:54] herman Bergson: A nice discussion..[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman[13:54] Bejiita Imako: yes interesting subjects as always[13:54] herman Bergson: Shows that we have got a lot of work to do[13:54] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): yes thank you[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: is yes bejiita[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: have a good time everyone - bye[13:54] Bejiita Imako: now i need some action so i can tamper with the evil machines at work tomorrow[13:55] Bejiita Imako: then its friday and my best friend comes over so they will not get to ruin my day[13:55] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:55] Zinzi Serevi: bye ciska[13:55] herman Bergson: Enjoy Bejiita and have fun[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:55] LuckyXIII Luke: thank you Herman for all[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon agaun all ㋡[13:55] Bejiita Imako: \o/[13:55] Bejiita Imako: || Hoooo![13:55] Bejiita Imako: / \[13:56] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): bye and good night[[13:56] LuckyXIII Luke: good night all[13:56] Zinzi Serevi: bye bye all of you[13:56] Zinzi Serevi: thanks Herman[13:56] Doodus Moose: Ray Kurzweil ( a futurist ) claims that our brains will not be capable of keeping up with the future faster pace of progress[13:56] Doodus Moose: ...unless we have some sort of implant in our brain to help us out .[13:57] Doodus Moose: take care everybody - till next week[13:57] herman Bergson: that is a bit of a peculiar hypothesis... Doodus[13:57] herman Bergson: Because it is our brain that creates that future...[13:58] Doodus Moose: many brains are creating your future right now - and you have only 1 brain to process all their work[13:58] herman Bergson: we will always have dumb and smart people Doodus...[13:58] Doodus Moose: :-)[13:59] herman Bergson: like society had laborers and rulers[13:59] Doodus Moose: i've found i've had to increasingly specialize due to the amount of developments in my fields[13:59] herman Bergson: the proletarians and the capitalists..[14:00] Doodus Moose: there are whole topics i must ignore to feed others[14:00] herman Bergson: the haves and have-nots[14:00] Doodus Moose: indeed, philosophy is displacing something else [14:00] Doodus Moose: i seem to be reaching a limit of sorts[14:01] Doodus Moose: well - i'll let you loose to enjoy your evening.[14:01] herman Bergson: Philosophers always displace things[14:01] Doodus Moose: anyway - i'll let you go now[14:02] herman Bergson: BE WELL DOODUS[14:02] Doodus Moose: indeed, you too, sir[14:02] Doodus Moose: (buy gold)
Let Bruce Hood do the talking here, the writer of "Supersense: Why we believe in the Unbelievable" (2009).As you see, it is a recent publication. A more radical kind of other member in the choir is "The God Delusion" (2006) by Richard Dawkins.What is going on these days is a development on which I wrote my thesis in 1977. And in those days by some people it was almost regarded as blasphemy: a materialist theory of the mind.In the past 25 years there have been a revolution in technology and science, in our case, neurobiology.This has enabled us to answer a lot of questions about the mind, or should I say , the functioning of the brain.On my desk I have a brand new book, written by a world-famous Dutch neurobiologist, Dick Swaab. The title of the book is most telling: WE ARE OUR BRAIN, from womb to Alzheimer.This is a confirmation of my initial philosophical stand as a young graduate in 1977. A confirmation. Epistemologically it means , according to Popper, that it makes my point of view only more probable, no true.To be honest, after this initial series of lectures on our subject "The Mystery of the Brain", I don't mind. On the one hand in 2010 there is such a plethora of confirming evidence.On the other hand, although there are many books written on the subject, there is so no really hard evidence for all that our supersense is able to generate.When a law of nature is falsified by scientific experiments, it is because we have formulated a law of nature that explains our observations and predictions much better.In the field of the supernatural, we never succeeded in proving the existence of (a) god. The very thought of a proof is almost disqualified as blasphemy and regarded as superfluous by a lot of people, which is most remarkable of course.The scientific research on the results of astrological interpretation came up with apparently significant observations, but yet still highly questionable.But , sorry Bruce, I began by saying that you would do the talking. Go ahead, you have the floor ^_^"IN THIS BOOK, I have proposed that humans are compelled to understand the nature of the world around them as part of the way our brains try to make sense of our experiences. This process starts early in childhood, even before culture has begun to tell children what to think. Along the way, children come up with all manner of beliefs about the world, including those that would have to be supernatural if true. These ideas go beyond the natural laws that we currently understand and hence are supernatural. Whether it is a disembodied mind floating free of the body, a sublime essence that harbors the true identity of people, places, and things, or the idea that people are all connected by tangible energies and hidden patterns, these notions are all intuitive ways of thinking about the world. We persist in these beliefs despite the lack of compelling evidence that the phenomena we think are real do in fact exist. Culture may fuel these beliefs with fantasy and fiction, but they burn brightly in the first place because of our natural inclination to assume “something there,” as William James put it. Culture simply took these beliefs and gave them meaning and content."Thank you, Bruce……….In the concluding lecture, that is only concluding on the theme of Supersense, we'll have a close look at his argument for his point of view.The Discussion[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you....[13:22] herman Bergson: If you have any question or remark...feel free...[13:22] Osiris Malso: ty Sir[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: i missed part bruce who[13:24] herman Bergson: Bruce Hood is the writer I referred to[13:24] herman Bergson: UK fellow[13:24] Simargl Talaj: I must disagree that any evidence for astrology is statistically significant. Differences among people can be sufficiently explained by other factors that only coincidentally correspond to astrological sign. People whose parents have certain characteristics tend to be born in certain months rather than ohters, so we are really seeing a parent effect I believe.[13:25] Bejiita Imako: there now i've catched up ㋡[13:25] Simargl Talaj: oop forgot the 17 word thing. That will be hard for me.[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: he mentions a time before culture takes the supersense and molds it, when is that?[13:25] Simargl Talaj: sorry[13:25] herman Bergson: Plz read the rules behind me Simargl[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: Herman I thought maybe Hood[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: i think when we are only infants to 5 or 6[13:26] herman Bergson: Well...culture kicks in in education at a later age....maybe when you are 4 or older...[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: yes about that[13:27] herman Bergson: Before that children already show supernatural beliefs[13:27] Osiris Malso: hehe Simargl dont you turn your bed to east?[13:27] Simargl Talaj: Margaret Meade noted that children in Melanesia had fewer supernatural beliefs than adults. It took culture a long time to ingrain them.[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: if one were to accept this philosophy, then we would tav to admit the babies are not receptive of life until 4?[13:27] herman Bergson: So the inclination to hold supernatural beliefs is hardwired in our brain it seems[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: babies are self centerd individuals[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: the center of their universe until about 2 1/2[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: supersense is so nonsensical to me[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: everyone and thing is there for them[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Simargl you are right...[13:29] herman Bergson: But the frame of mind is wired thus that we only increase those beliefs the older we get...[13:29] Simargl Talaj: Infants and children learn most deeply whatever is connected to their sense of survival even counter to later actual needs for survival. Thus the "supernatural" (not materially supported) beliefs/attitudes of abused children.[13:30] herman Bergson: Well Aristotle....to that nonsensical feature of Supersense we'll get next Thursday...[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: good LOL[13:31] Simargl Talaj: :)[13:31] Bejiita Imako: then if u tell a small children about well everything they believe it cause they dont know anything other yet, have no other facts,[13:31] Bejiita Imako: for example that santa claus comes down the chimney at christmas eve and so[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: I am confident tho that a child begins to absorb the world from day one[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...[13:31] Bejiita Imako: thats all they ve heard until they get more facts[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: yes ari they do[13:31] herman Bergson: with a basic mechanism…[13:31] Osiris Malso: yes i think so too[13:31] Bejiita Imako: also a thing[13:32] herman Bergson: To see structures and order in the plethora of sensory experiences[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: so if santa claus comes when they are 1 or 2 so what[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: but after 3 or 4 they believe[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: until they find out later[13:33] Bejiita Imako: I think i believed in that as well until i learned that hmm wait now i ve never seen or heard anyone come down the chimney or something like that[13:33] Osiris Malso: ok people bye se next time[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL, parents think Santa Claus is a good thing for their children to believe in, he is not much different from religion[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes funny to see how we educate our children with fairy tales and then later tell them..sorry all not true[13:33] Osiris Malso: by Sir[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: exactly!!!!!!![13:33] Bejiita Imako: bye Sir[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Osiris[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:34] Osiris Malso: byee[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and then u find out theat santa is really your grandmother or grandfather or something[13:34] herman Bergson: See you soon Osiris[13:34] Bejiita Imako: in santa chothes[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: but before that was supersense of belief in him[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and why always they go buy the newspaper just before he comes?[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: I wonder if anyone ever thinks about the mistrust that these tales create[13:34] Bejiita Imako: when u start get that together[13:35] herman Bergson: Well Aristotle....relogion takes over there :-)[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: or is that intended even?[13:35] Bejiita Imako: never the .less santa has a place at christmas eve I think[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: yep[13:35] Bejiita Imako: adds to the correct setting[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: but again that is culture[13:35] Bejiita Imako: I use to be santa myself sometimes[13:35] Bejiita Imako: :[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: I am guilty with my children of passing it on to them[13:36] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita ...I guess now you first need to see a doctor[13:36] Bejiita Imako: lol[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...next lecture we'll introduce rationality....[13:36] Bejiita Imako: Its really interesting this with supernatural believes[13:36] Bejiita Imako: same with ghosts and so[13:37] herman Bergson: as the opponent of supernatural beliefs...[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: great, I need some[13:37] Bejiita Imako: I ve never seen one but many claim they have[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: I would like to be on the rationality team[13:37] Bejiita Imako: in old houses and so they really can hear strange stuff and so[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....it will be a little diappointing I believe[13:38] herman Bergson: Well Aristotle..I think you should wait till next Thursday and then reconsider tour wish[13:38] Bejiita Imako: If they were kind i wouldnt have anything about it if they existed[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: okie dokie[13:38] Bejiita Imako: would be fun to really see one for once[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:39] Simargl Talaj: Herman, how would you like to focus the last few minutes here? I fear I have lost track of what is appropriate,[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh yes Bejiita....I'd really LOVE to see a real ghost...![13:39] Bejiita Imako: would be cool[13:39] herman Bergson: the intellectual and philosophical impact would be gigantic...[13:39] Simargl Talaj: (and religious)[13:39] herman Bergson: Same is even more true when there really landed a true alien on this planet[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:40] herman Bergson: that would kill God really, tho Nietzsche claimed that he is dead already[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: which is more possible , the alien or the ghost?[13:40] herman Bergson: I would say neither ogf both[13:40] Simargl Talaj: Why would it kill GOd? Religons allow for ghosts.[13:41] Simargl Talaj: a new religion would allow for both gods and ghosts.[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: wb Gemma[13:41] Bejiita Imako: wb gemma[13:41] herman Bergson: Sim..there is just one god ..one creation...one world....an alien would falsify that all[13:41] Simargl Talaj: and would have the advantage that half its theology was already demonstrated.[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: not necessarily[13:42] Simargl Talaj: ah, you meant aliens not ghosts. Again I disagree. Religon allows for aliens.[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: yes it does[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: I could start a religion that believes in hobgobblins too, doent make any of it ture[13:42] Simargl Talaj: Hinduism includes the existence of multiple inhabited planets and Catholic theologians have discussed soberly the spiritual condition of aliens if they exist.[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: no but i bet you would have a lot of followers[13:42] herman Bergson: I am sorry, but chrisianity hardly accepted that the earth rotated around the sun[13:42] Simargl Talaj: The doctrine of "that anonymous christian" pertained, I believe.[13:43] herman Bergson: so how can it admitt aliens?[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: Herman it has[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: easily[13:43] Simargl Talaj: It has acepted the solar system for quite a while now.[13:43] herman Bergson: Explain Gemma...:-)[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: depends on how it affects the collection plate[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: because they would be creatures of the same god they believe in[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: it is my understanding that the vatican has issued some documents allowing for that[13:44] herman Bergson: but that would mean that mankind left earth long time ago in space travel...?[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: not[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: Stargate?[13:44] Simargl Talaj: Universalists would have no trouble with it, and there are Christain Universalists. Buddhists would have no trouble with it. Hindus would have no trouble with it. And the Bible does not say that Earth is the only planet on which God created life, so even Fundamentalist Christians would probabaly survive.[13:44] Simargl Talaj: damn passed the 17 again, sorry. I'm trying.[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: they could have developed just as we did[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: odds are against it I think but it is possible Gemma[13:45] herman Bergson: Well we wont waist our time on such theological discussions....[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802629.htm[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: but aliens and ghosts are just like supersense, ...figments[13:46] herman Bergson: Because basically it presuposes the supernatural belief in a god...[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle..most likely[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: but I will gladly embrace them all if proven to me[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: :_)[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: we all wil if they are proven :-)[13:47] herman Bergson: OH me too...I am still waiting for ET...[13:47] Bejiita Imako: aa yes[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: indeed, such a nice guy he was[13:47] herman Bergson: yes...[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: if they do exist they are too far away anyway[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: need time travel[13:47] Bejiita Imako: If my LHC could prove something like that to me as well, but Ill have to satisfy if they find the higgs there i guess[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...it seems so[13:48] Bejiita Imako: would be nice to know for sure[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:48] Bejiita Imako: are ghosts real are there something out there or not[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: just need another Jules Vern[13:48] Bejiita Imako: really curious[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:48] Simargl Talaj: What is our intended topic at this point? The supernatural beliefs of children, and the extent to which they arise independent of culture?[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: or Roddenb erry[13:48] Bejiita Imako: of all the musterious unknown things[13:48] Bejiita Imako: but i want proof before I bellieve it[13:49] herman Bergson: Well..I think we can conclude our session for today....[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:49] herman Bergson: The issue is clear...we all wait for ET ^_^[13:49] Bejiita Imako: Interesting as usual[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: bergie gave me the beginning[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:49] Bejiita Imako: aa me too,[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-))[13:50] herman Bergson: Or for a real ghost...which is of couse paradoxicall because ghosts aren't real
In my previous lecture I stated that our natural way of thinking about life tells us that there are essences, which in living organisms are fueled by a life force (élan vital), while all is part of a whole.With 'our natural way of thinking' I mean the way of thinking that is the result of how our brain is wired. There is a logical, scientific way of thinking, but you have to learn that.The natural way of thinking you don't need to learn. It develops and emerges from childhood on and stays with us al our life. It is a mix of rationality and supernatural thinking.One basic trait of the mind is to organize our experiences and put them in categories: male, female, herbivore, bird, fish and so on…And here we find a nice example in the bible book Leviticus.There you find a detailed list of animals which are clean and which are unclean. One explanation was that certain animals were indicated as unclean because in the warm climate they could cause easily diseases.But this explanation doesn't apply to all listed animals. One intriguing alternative is that the unclean animals didn't fit into the categories, which people had in mind.When the cow is a clean animal, all clean animals of that kind have to fit to its properties: slip hooves and chewing cud.This made the camel unclean, because it brings up its cud, but its hoof is not split. Same with the pig…it has split hooves but doesn't chew its cud.The jewish scholars in those days thought that such violations were abominations of the natural world. This is an example of our inclination to chop up nature into all kinds of categories which we think exist. And as you see, it may lead to conclusions which only can be justified by our supersense.Take for instance the essence of being human , that invisible property that distinguishes us from nonhumans. We love to believe that, especially certain philosophers.However, you can define an individual human being in a dozen ways, as a prince, an adolescent, a male, a neurotic, an athlete.So which is the "right" definition. There isn't. The idea that there is only one true individual essence is nonsense.Genetic manipulation is another example of how our supersense, our belief in essences works."When we hear about scientists inserting genes of fish into mice and potatoes, we feel squeamish. It just does not seem right. It’s not natural.", says Bruce Hood.Related to the notion of essence is the idea of a life force, something that is in living animals but not in dead ones. This is vitalism, an ancient belief that the body is motivated by an inner energy.We are not talking about the biochemical processes here, but about that extra, an "élan vital", or as you find in many religions, we are talking about the soul, often even understood as that force that makes us that unique individual we are.Many believe that when somebody dies, something is leaving the body. In movies they love to show it as a half transparent copy of the deceased.Don't you remember that movie where the deceased tries to warn his girlfriend. Forgot the title, only know that Whoopi Goldberg plays a part in it too and that scene at the potter's wheel.herman Bergson : Anyone?AristotleVon Doobie: GhostQwark Allen : i rememberQwark Allen : yesJozen Ocello : oh yes, ghostJozen Ocello : like that movieherman Bergson : Yes Ghost...!Bejiita Imako : ah okherman Bergson : I loved that movie...AristotleVon Doobie: Patrick Swaysyherman Bergson : yes and that girl...who was she...Jozen Ocello : oh yeah... and Demi Moore?AristotleVon Doobie: Demi Mooreherman Bergson : great!åLet me quote Bruce Hood on this intuitive vitalism: "... an emerging naive vitalism helps children to appreciate the nature of death as final and something that happens to everyone. Intuitive theories don’t have to be scientifically accurate to be useful.Again I'll like to emphasize, in the realm of (scientific) knowledge ideas generated by supersense are nonsense, but on the other hand time and again it appears that we can't live as social beings without this nonsense (in an epistemological sense).Let me quote Bruce Hood on this intuitive vitalism: "... an emerging naive vitalism helps children to appreciate the nature of death as final and something that happens to everyone. Intuitive theories don’t have to be scientifically accurate to be useful.Again I'll like to emphasize, in the realm of (scientific) knowledge ideas generated by supersense are nonsense, but on the other hand time and again it appears that we can't live as social beings without this nonsense (in an epistemological sense).The Discussion[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^[13:20] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours :-)[13:21] herman Bergson: Don't tell me you are speechless...^_^[13:21] Qwark Allen: indeed[13:21] Beertje Beaumont: were would we be without any supersense?..it gives us safety[13:21] AristotleVon Doobie: This concept of soul then is a result of Supersense and not tutoring?[13:21] Qwark Allen: still thinking about[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...where would we be without our supernatural beliefs...[13:22] Beertje Beaumont: it gives us a safe feeling..and we need that to survive[13:22] herman Bergson: I really don't know unless I would say that we would be rational beings then[13:22] AristotleVon Doobie: I agree with Beertje about the safety of the sentiment, but the roots of it must be in instruction[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes but these supersense ideas are also a source of great danger for our survival..[13:24] herman Bergson: Just look at religious and nationalistic fanaticism..[13:24] Beertje Beaumont: yes true[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: I can see that the primal brain gets involved in the formation of such things[13:24] herman Bergson: Iran building nuclear plants to safe its nation ...[13:24] Beertje Beaumont: but if there is nothing to live for..after we are dead..what is the use of living then?[13:25] herman Bergson: let focus on Beertje's remark....it is most important....[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: ahh, the joy of living must be its own reward[13:25] herman Bergson: What implies her remark....[13:25] herman Bergson: One implication is that life has a goal...[13:26] herman Bergson: a fundamental issue...[13:26] herman Bergson: but the result of our supernatual thinking to believe that[13:26] herman Bergson: there is nothing in this world that indicates that what is has a goal...[13:26] herman Bergson: a final destiny[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: or hope that it does so that we can feel worthy?[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: religion for one tells you you are unworthy from the get go[13:28] herman Bergson: One particular characteristic of monotheistic religions is that they tell you that you are bad, a sinner, unworthy, that you have to kneel down[13:29] herman Bergson: and have you noticed...[13:29] herman Bergson: now that religion is in decline we re establish the same system.....[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: the first thing a child hears once they can reach out is 'no'[13:29] herman Bergson: Now we are the unworthy criminals destroying this planet..[13:30] herman Bergson: God had been replaced by Earth[13:30] herman Bergson: Sinner has been replaced by pollution creator[13:30] Jozen Ocello: i wonder if this is where spirituality comes in? being spiritual rather than religious?[13:30] herman Bergson: Our brain seems to be wired to think in such terms[13:31] herman Bergson: May be Jozen.....[13:31] Beertje Beaumont: writing a novel Itsme?[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: :) yes, seems sinful to destroy your support system[13:31] herman Bergson: his memoirs Beertje...his memoirs[13:31] Beertje Beaumont: lol[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: stuttering a lot[13:32] itsme Frederix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telos_%28philosophy%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiology Beertje, that might help[13:32] herman Bergson: Itsme..read the rules..no more than an average of 17 words ^_^[13:32] Daruma Boa: oh sorry 2 say that. i have to leave now.[13:33] herman Bergson: Take care, Daruma[13:33] itsme Frederix: my average is this sentence divided by ... all these lines shorter than 17[13:33] Daruma Boa: hope 2 be here on thursday^^^[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Daruma[13:33] Beertje Beaumont: i read that later Itsme..i need time to read english[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: spiritualty has to equate to religion somehow[13:33] herman Bergson: there is a difference between spirituality and religion...[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: or could spirituality be merely appreciation and respect?[13:34] herman Bergson: religion is always related to the group and to some kind of organisation[13:34] herman Bergson: spirituality might mean the person way of using your supersense, having your own supernatural ideas to comfort you[13:35] herman Bergson: Is that what you meant Jozen?[13:35] Jozen Ocello: yes[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: well, I am certainly grateful for the sun, I don't really know to whom tho[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...also such a supersense idea....to be grateful for the sun..for life, for your health[13:36] herman Bergson: and indeed to whom????[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: yes indeed[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: to me I suppose[13:36] herman Bergson: I think so too Aristotle....[13:37] herman Bergson: But I think the word grateful should be replaced by 'happy'[13:37] herman Bergson: I am happy with the sun , with life , with my health...that makes sense[13:37] Jozen Ocello: i think religion and spirituality are very closely related and indeed similar in some ways depending on how people define them, but i think spirituality is perhaps more tied to supersense than religion[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: ahhh, then that is the purpose of life.....happiness and the sharing of it[13:37] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:37] itsme Frederix: the bright side of life[13:38] herman Bergson: yes ...but some religions forbid us to feel happy....you have to stay aware of the fact that we are still sinners...[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: yes LOL I have seen it, you must be miserable to go to heaven[13:38] herman Bergson: And others say...happy ?....you arrogant jerk...[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL, thats me[13:39] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:39] herman Bergson: great![13:39] Jozen Ocello: lol[13:40] herman Bergson: As you see, our supersense can be comforting, but also endangering our existence[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: like most things, depends who is weilding it[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...and then we enter the realm of philosophy...of ethics for instance[13:41] herman Bergson: We have to the face the ontological questions....Beertje's question..what is the purpose of life...[13:42] herman Bergson: We'll come to that later[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: is Itsme still typing?[13:43] herman Bergson: So I suggest we'll wait for the lecture of Thursday ..:-)[13:43] itsme Frederix: thats the wood it hurts a little[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: :))[13:43] herman Bergson: should we collect some money for Itsme, so that he can buy proper clothes?[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hhe[13:44] Beertje Beaumont: lol[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah all his clothes are probably just in the wash[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:44] itsme Frederix: All I want is that you leave me some sunshine ;)[13:44] herman Bergson: we'll give him a landmark to a freebie store ^_^[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: :))[13:45] Jozen Ocello: you would have two tans by the end of it, itsme hehe[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe¨[13:45] itsme Frederix: suckers[13:45] herman Bergson: Well...thank you all for your participation again...[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you, Herman...as always very interesting[13:45] Bejiita Imako: nice as usual this ㋡[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed... ^_^[13:45] Jozen Ocello: thanks look forward to Thursday's session[13:45] Bejiita Imako: interesting[13:45] herman Bergson: No homework today :-)[13:45] Jozen Ocello: cool![13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: great I can Party[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL[13:45] Jozen Ocello: lazy student here :P[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: yay![13:46] Qwark Allen: eheheh[13:46] Qwark Allen: nice[13:46] Qwark Allen: \o/
"We treat the mind and the body as separate because that is what we experience. I am controlling my body, but I am more than just my body. We sense that we exist independently of our bodies.", says Bruce Hood.This is a very peculiar situation, we are in. It does not, however, touch our epistemological position, in my opinion. Kant is right when he states that the mind has its own mechanisms to make sensory experiences meaningful experiences.Otherwise stated, we would say that the brain is not an empty vessel that gets filled up as soon as consciousness emerges in the human organism, but that it comes with a extensive toolbox to help it understand and interact with its environment.Statements which are knowledge claims, tell us something about the world, which is independent of the mind and describe states of affairs, which we can check.One state of affairs of which we claim that it is really the case, is our conclusion that the mind is generated by the brain. No brain means no mind.A physically damaged brain means a damaged mind. A chemically influenced brain with pills or drugs results in a seriously influenced or confused mind.And yet we generally experience our mind as a kind of independent of our body. The mind controls the body and we are not easily inclined to believe that the body controls the mind, although this seems to be the actual state of affairs.Linguistically the mind is enigmatic. We can construct sentences which have a proper syntax, but sound so puzzling. For instance:"I have a mind."Pretty simple observation it seems, isn't it, but compare it with the statement "I have a car". Looks 100% the same, but the semantical conclusions are puzzling.That car isn't me. It is an physical object,which I possess. The statement "I have a mind" can't have the same semantics. The mind is not some physical object. Then what does this statement mean? And who is that "I" who possesses a mind?You probably know officer Murphy from the movie Robocop. His brain without memories is implanted in a cybernetic machine. He is regarded to be just a machine until gradually his memories come back.In Kafka's The Metamorphosis (Die Verwandlung, 1915) Gregor Samsa discovered that he has changed into a huge beetle, but he still is Gregor Samsa.These examples suggest that we have some strong opinions about what makes something a unique human person. Adults are inclined to believe you are you as long as your mind and memories are there, whether the brain is in a jar or in your body.Our conscious experience of our own minds and memories inclines us to think of minds being unique and the source of personal identity. We certainly don’t think our own minds and memories could belong to other people, says Bruce Hood in his book Supersense.Alzheimer confronts us too with this idea of personal identity. A friend of mine once said to me: " It is so hard to visit her. She looks like my mother, but she isn't my mother anymore."From childhood on we grow up with this dualistic view. Then it is easy to believe that the mind is not necessarily chained to the physical brain.Thence, could there be a possibility, that the mind can escape the fate of the physical body and survive? This is a view that is strongly supported by all kinds of religions,but we must recognize that the concept of the immortal soul originates in the normal reasoning processes of every child.In an article, “The Development of ‘Afterlife’ Beliefs in Secularly and Religiously Schooled Children,” British Journal of Developmental Psychology 23 (2005), three researchers observedthat children raised in a secular environment may express fewer afterlife beliefs than children raised in a religious household, but they still retain notions of some form of mental life that survives death.The survival of such ideas into adulthood does not need to be the result of indoctrination in childhood. It appeals to our supersense to think that we can continue to exist after our death.I won't deal with these issues now, but here we run into fundamental philosophical questions about The Self, Consciousness and Personal Identity.That is work still to be done, so stay tuned!
The Discussion[13:23] herman Bergson: thank you :-)[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:23] herman Bergson: If you have a question or remark....feel free..[13:24] herman Bergson: This was a bit much I guess in a nutshell[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: the mind is not chained to the body[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: I wonder if a child were isolated from birth to the interview if they would express the same belief in the after life of their mind[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: i think they would not expect the life they are in to disappear[13:25] herman Bergson: Well Gemma...in fact the mind is...tho we have difficulty to believe this[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: so.. isolation would not lead to death thoughts[13:25] herman Bergson: And Aristotle...the development of the mind is well described by Piaget..[13:26] herman Bergson: so the dualistic idea about oneself is almost an innate line of thinking...[13:26] herman Bergson: We experience the mind as something different from the body...[13:26] herman Bergson: we don't experience it as being physical[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: that is true[13:27] herman Bergson: that mad e Descartes believe that the mind is a non substantial substance...[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: I hear you, but have to think that the mind is influenced not only through self exploratioin but parents and peers[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: even at a young age[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: that is very true ari[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: oh yes[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: hi jozen[13:28] herman Bergson: yes but even then the dualistic view is not necessarily the result of indoctrination in childhood...[13:28] Jozen Ocello: Hi Herman sorry I'm late[13:28] Jozen Ocello: hi Gemma hi everyone[13:28] herman Bergson: it is a logical consequence of how the mind develops[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: yes[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hi Jozen[13:29] Beertje Beaumont: hi josen[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: I would agree to the development of the mind post birth, yes[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: but I fear I hold strongly to the tabula rasa[13:29] Jozen Ocello accepted your inventory offer.[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)[13:29] herman Bergson: there you are refuted by neurobiological facts Aristotle[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: i don't think so[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: yes[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: read piaget[13:30] herman Bergson: Kant was right in my opinion[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL, someone just needs to convince me otherwise[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: ok[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: not me[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: so far not enough evidence for me[13:30] herman Bergson: read all reseach done on babies[13:30] herman Bergson: takes out his baseball bat...[13:31] herman Bergson: ok Aristotle...lol[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: :)))[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: that is why there are so many philosophers with different approaches[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: about the same life[13:32] herman Bergson: Ye t I hope to show you that neurobiological evidence shows that we are no clean slate at birth[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: in talking about the mind my daughter reproached me for thinking theer is one[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: at what age[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: she is taking a a neurobiological class and thinks there is on neurons[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: only[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: ah[13:33] herman Bergson: No children prefer to speak of I and me....they hardly use the word mind in conversation[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: she is a senior[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: college[13:33] herman Bergson: then she needs to clarify what she means by MIND[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, I agree LOL[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: she will[13:34] herman Bergson: But is she means that there does not exists more than the body then I would agree with her[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:34] herman Bergson: if[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: but her evidence is research to support her position[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: teh same evidence you have referenced :)[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: same evidence[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle....[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: in the next class she will think differently i imagine[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: what ever it is[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: it is funny, the concept of strictly biological reactions[13:35] herman Bergson: I think that neurobiological research will clear a lot of philosophical disputes...[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: I think so too[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes maybe that[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: I asked her where the driver of the car was?[13:36] herman Bergson: for instance the empiricist (Locke - tabula rasa ) view and Kantian rationalist view...[13:36] herman Bergson: Ah......there you go Aristotle...[13:37] herman Bergson: there is the illusion of the mind....[13:37] Gemma Cleanslate: and she said?????[13:37] herman Bergson: because your daughter could ask you...who is the driver of the driver?[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL, she implied I was not sane in thinking differently LOL[13:37] Gemma Cleanslate: oh well you are only her father[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: yes Gemma Indeed[13:38] herman Bergson: You still think of the ghost in the machine Aristotle...[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: well, in my trilogy I suppose, the mind is the holy ghost[13:38] herman Bergson: if the ghost controls the machine..ok...but who or what controls the ghost...[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:39] herman Bergson: let me rephrase…[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: my ghost apparently has gone rogue[13:39] herman Bergson: I think about myself...[13:39] Bejiita Imako: starts to sound like the classic saying turtles all way down[13:39] herman Bergson: so I am smarter than myself...we are two...[13:40] herman Bergson: But this I, can he think about himself too?...should be..yes[13:40] herman Bergson: the problem here is....and we'll discuss that later[13:40] herman Bergson: that you get in an infinite regress...[13:40] herman Bergson: I think that I think that think that I think...[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: yes[13:41] herman Bergson: so here the mind mKES short-circuiting [13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: either way it is extremely titelating to think of it[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: yes[13:41] herman Bergson: oh yes.....[13:42] herman Bergson: I still havent' it figured out myself....[13:42] herman Bergson: But here you see the influence on neurobiology on philosophy...[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: we will be very rich when we do[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: and there is so much discovered every day[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: teh discovery is exponential[13:43] herman Bergson: yes Gemma....[13:43] Bejiita Imako: indeed¨[13:43] herman Bergson: When I wrote my thesis on this subject in 1977 neurobiology was hardly mentioned[13:44] herman Bergson: the ideas of materialism were pure philosophical discourse...[13:44] Jozen Ocello: the intersection of the two fields are most interesting indeed[13:44] herman Bergson: but now to say that the brain is the mind and that the brain controls the mind is almost common knowledge in scientific circles[13:45] Caipirisma Laval: we will have prove what happens when they are able to transplant a brain.. i think[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: oh gosh[13:45] herman Bergson: What pleases me the most is ...that my arguments from 1977 now are corroberated by scientific evidence...[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: :)[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: I am sure[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: i have an idea it will be legally prevented in most countries[13:46] herman Bergson: Well Cai...transplantin a brain was the issue in RObocop...[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: remember the first face transplant???[13:46] Caipirisma Laval: i mean ..not in a movie:))[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: an uproar[13:47] Jozen Ocello: oh yes, that wasn't too long ago was it, Gemma?[13:47] Jozen Ocello: a very good example[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: no[13:47] herman Bergson: What is the question at stake here is...what makes a person to an individual person....that is ..what is personal identity[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: within two years[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: that has been the question[13:47] Caipirisma Laval: true..what happends..with memories..well the patient can tell us at that time..[13:47] herman Bergson: That doesnt matter Cai..whether it is in a movie or in reality...[13:48] Caipirisma Laval: i think it does matter[13:48] herman Bergson: and yes GEmma...a face transplant...and personal identity...huge question[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: but how infintesimal the fulcrum point must be that determines which controls which, brainn or mind[13:49] herman Bergson: Philosophically it isn't that important Cai....[13:49] herman Bergson: it is only the difference between technically thinkable and technically possible...[13:50] herman Bergson: if it is already thinkable, you have to face the philosophical questions..related to th eissue[13:50] Caipirisma Laval: hmm..a brain cant function without the body..and body not without a brain..[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: and then the question arise, can the mind be excised[13:50] herman Bergson: because it was thinkable to fly to the moon ..Jules Verne did so[13:51] herman Bergson: It immediately provoked the question ..where is god and where is heaven[13:51] herman Bergson: when the first russian astronaut was send in to space ..Gagarin....[13:51] AristotleVon Doobie: once thought of, all that remains is technology to catch up with the thought[13:52] herman Bergson: the first thing he said was...there is no heaven here...just space[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL, he must have have the metaphor of heaven n his mind as being up[13:52] herman Bergson: this is how philosophically thinkable and technically possible relate[13:53] Bejiita Imako: what did he expected to find, little angels on clouds playing harps[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:53] herman Bergson: I guess so yes...[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:53] Caipirisma Laval: if technology change..philosophy change with it[13:53] AristotleVon Doobie: some folks cant see the forest for the trees[13:54] Caipirisma Laval: change of view..[13:54] herman Bergson: In fact it is the other way around Cai.....[13:54] Caipirisma Laval: possible to..smiles[13:54] Jozen Ocello: i like what you said, Herman "philosophical thinkable" and "technologically possible"[13:54] herman Bergson: when the scientist comes up with a new idea, new theory....new technology will emerge...[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: true[13:55] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:55] herman Bergson: the scientist is the philosopher who changed his interpretation of nature[13:55] AristotleVon Doobie: took awhile for DaVinci :)[13:55] Caipirisma Laval: so it can be visa versa[13:55] Bejiita Imako: I still wait for the LHC to give me hard facts about some stuff however the damn machine only stryggles now[13:56] herman Bergson: yes Cai...first there is the thought...then there is the technology created based on the thought[13:56] Bejiita Imako: dumped now when colliding the beams so have to start over again[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ran fine yesterday at least[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: well[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: thing is so big!!!!!![13:56] Bejiita Imako: many theories to be answered by it[13:56] Bejiita Imako: and i want to know SOON[13:56] Bejiita Imako: curious like hell now[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: :)[13:57] herman Bergson: I can imagine Bejiita...[13:57] herman Bergson: Must be sensational to get the answer[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: his mind is obsessed with it[13:57] Bejiita Imako: feels we get closer and closer but cant reach all the way now when it behave like this[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: :-0[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: better be soon!!!![13:58] Bejiita Imako: I want it to find some stuff that will rewrite all the schoolbooks[13:58] herman Bergson: I would suggest we all light a candle for Bejiita....^_^[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: just don't let Texas write em[13:58] Bejiita Imako: would be amazing[13:58] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: no[13:58] herman Bergson: We covered a lot of ground today.....[13:58] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: hope i will make it thursday[13:59] Bejiita Imako: interesting as usual[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:59] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:59] Gemma Cleanslate: yes[13:59] herman Bergson: So, time to thank you for your great participation in the debate[13:59] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you Herman :)[13:59] Gemma Cleanslate: see you all soon[13:59] Jozen Ocello: i'll be here on thursday but may be 10-15 mins[13:59] herman Bergson: See you soon again...[13:59] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu then[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..^_^[13:59] Caipirisma Laval: ty professor[13:59] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman:)[13:59] AristotleVon Doobie: gotta run, good bye all[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman & class! see u thursday[14:00] herman Bergson: My Pleasure Beertje[14:00] Bejiita Imako: bye[14:00] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡ [14:00] Caipirisma Laval: yes ..thats me:))[14:00] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma
