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The brain is a hot issue in the media like my Saturday newspaper proved again. A page long article with the headline: "spontaneous" decisions are over.We have an intuitive belief that we have a free will. Some might argue….well, to some extend yes. It is almost the same intuitive belief that we have a mind and a body in a dualistic sense.However, when asked a philosopher, we get another story. This dualism of mind and body is an idea only uphold by just a few anymore.That's ok, as long as nobody starts denying that we have a mind. Let philosophers debate ontological questions here.But our free will. That is another cup of tea.That free will is part of our identity. We shaped our personality by our free choices. Because of our free will we are morally responsible.And here is a journalist who gets 64 electrodes attached to his skull looking at a computer screen, on which something is moving.He gets the instruction to stop that movement by a mouse click, whenever he likes. Just spontaneous, unplanned.What happens? Seconds before he presses the mouse button "spontaneously" there is already activity in the premotoric cortex.The brain seems to be ahead of my spontaneous decision to press the button. It already made the decision for me?the belief in a free will has serious consequences as has the opposite: the belief that they decide for you, that circumstances determine your present state and so on.A research team of the university of Gent, Belgium, convinced one half of the group of test persons, that free will is an illusionThey presented them with the words of Nobel prizewinner Francis Crick:" Your feeling of personal identity and free will is nothing more than the behavior of a large group of braincells and molecules therein."Whether Crick is right or not, in the heads of the test persons this text had a remarkable effect on the brain activity.The brain activity in a free choice experiment was considerably less than in heads of those who hadn't read Crick's text and unconcerned believe in their free will.Especially the unconscious process in the brain that precedes the spontaneous choice activity was 25% less in this group.The belief or disbelief in a free will affects us, influences how we perform and act, like researchers from the University of MInnesota and University of California discovered.Test persons had to solve 20 math problems. They could cheat, but were explicitly asked not to do so.One half of the group was confronted with the text of Francis Crick.The result was that in that group 60% more cheated than in the group who hadn't read the words of Francis Crick.This defines our philosophical problem clearly: Is free will an illusion? What is the place of free will in our lives if all our actions are the result of some other cause? Do our desires and unconscious beliefs make us less free? How do human beings assert their autonomy in a world governed by chance, cause and necessity?You are free to show up next Thursday to hear how this story continues.The Discussion[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yay, very interesting[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....[13:24] Bibbe Oh: thank you![13:24] Jaelle Faerye: what a cliffhanger, Herman, LOL[13:24] Mick Nerido: Thanks professor[13:24] herman Bergson: if you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours[13:24] Farv Hallison: Thank you herman[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: thank you, it was brilliant again[13:24] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting theory.[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Im interested in that time-shift thing[13:25] Mistyowl Warrhol: Do we have the free will to allow outside influence to effect how thinking?[13:25] herman Bergson: yes Merlin that is a fascinating phenomenon.[13:25] Mick Nerido: Have to go see u thursday[13:25] herman Bergson: Ok Mick[13:25] Farv Hallison: bye Mik[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: tc mick[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Mick[13:26] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC Mick :-)[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sometimes I think I had predicted something, but then wonder if my memory was false and came after the event[13:26] herman Bergson: The general idea is that before we are conscious of our desicion the brain is already at work[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes[13:26] herman Bergson: It came definitely after the event Merlin....[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes :)[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Do other people experience this?[13:27] herman Bergson: the idea is that the brain makes up things....[13:27] herman Bergson: But I have a problem with this way of thinking...[13:28] herman Bergson: on the one hand there is the brain....[13:28] herman Bergson: on the other hand there is consciousness[13:28] Sybyle Perdide: but.. however you define free will.. the decision, the free will did, must come from somewhere[13:28] herman Bergson: My point of view is that indeed the brain generates consciousness as a biological process[13:28] Farv Hallison: I say your mind is different than consciousness....your mind made the desicion any it was displayed later on your Cartesean stage.[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Farv...that is a little bit what I fear...[13:29] Mistyowl Warrhol: Some people are more influenced by outside events. Some are not. What about the 40% that did not cheat?[13:29] herman Bergson: the idea that consciousness is the audience of the brain[13:30] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): how much time is there between the brain and action?[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Richard Dawkins says clearly that he thinks consciousness evolved[13:30] herman Bergson: half a second Beertje....in certain tests[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sorry, thats obvious[13:30] herman Bergson: But Misty you got a point....[13:30] Hokon Cazalet: true, if consciousness is a product of evolution [which it is], then it served some survivial value, somewhere somehow[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes thats it[13:31] herman Bergson: research shows that when you tell people there is no free will, they become less social and moral[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh they DO?[13:31] herman Bergson: yes Merlin...…[13:31] herman Bergson: therefore I have great difficulty with this brian observations and how it is related to free will[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): they let go of their own moral?[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: If ppl have been conditioned to obey what they hear, they lose free will. Ppl who are "free thinkers" will still rely on free will.[13:32] Jaelle Faerye: that's an interesting thing[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....they feel less responseble for their actions...[13:32] Jaelle Faerye: that moral thing[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I suppose Misty raises a broader issue there[13:32] Jaelle Faerye: i read somewhere[13:33] Farv Hallison: what does it mean to rely on free will?[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Degrees of free will[13:33] Jaelle Faerye: that they had an "experiment" going on[13:33] Jaelle Faerye: with people[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: doesn't it depend of intelligence and education?[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: If any event is less obvious, we are more likely to let it influence us..[13:33] herman Bergson: To rely on free will means that you have the feeling, Farv, that you make the decisions, you plot the course[13:33] Jaelle Faerye: volunteers who were supposed to ask questions and "punish" with a power surge if the answer was wrong[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: Trying to think of the word I am looking for.. duh[13:34] Sybyle Perdide: but what is me?[13:34] herman Bergson: The Miller experiment Jaelle....test on authority...[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: yes[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: and[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: letting go of the free will[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: since it was "required"[13:35] herman Bergson: yes some obeyed to the extreme[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: people abdicated their own free will[13:35] herman Bergson: but I think that that is another story....[13:35] Mistyowl Warrhol: There are some, who will remain anon, who rebel when told something must be a certain way :-)[13:35] herman Bergson: it was not about free will this research but on the power of authority[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: uh huh[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: but[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: accepting authority without questioning?[13:36] herman Bergson: yes...[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: isn't that somehow a negation of one's free will?[13:36] Mistyowl Warrhol: Exactly[13:36] herman Bergson: no...[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: why?[13:36] herman Bergson: it is the choice to leave the responsability to th eperson in charge[13:37] Jaelle Faerye: uh huh[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: yep[13:37] Sybyle Perdide: noo[13:37] Jaelle Faerye: i never went to army[13:37] Sybyle Perdide: not only#[13:37] herman Bergson: well yes..it is army style...:-)[13:37] herman Bergson: never question your superior![13:37] Jaelle Faerye: yup[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: and with some religions[13:38] herman Bergson: oh yes Misty...[13:38] herman Bergson: never question Mohammed[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ooh careful![13:38] herman Bergson: grins...[13:38] herman Bergson: yeah Merlin..[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: LOL but that is not about true religion, but ppl who use religion for power and that is a whole new issue.[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...I think you will be surprised when we really dig into th efree will issue philosophically...[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I look forward to it[13:40] Jaelle Faerye: me too[13:40] Mistyowl Warrhol: There will always be ppl who believe only they are right and want to take free will away.[13:40] herman Bergson: To be honest Merlin..me too....it is amazing in fact....[13:41] herman Bergson: Then...may I thank you all again for your participation....[13:41] Jaelle Faerye: Thank YOU, Herman[13:41] Sybyle Perdide: merci Herman[13:41] herman Bergson: unless you still have a question or remark left[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, thank YOU[13:41] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you professor[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: thanks to YOU Herman[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: Nice discussion.. much to think about. ty :-)[13:41] Bibbe Oh: Food for thought![13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.. ^_^[13:42] Hokon Cazalet: =)[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): He he[13:43] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Goodnight everybody[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: nini Beertje[13:43] herman Bergson: I am sorry Lizzy about my report on what I saw[13:43] Farv Hallison: goodnight beer[13:43] Jaelle Faerye: Night Beerje
Welcome to you all again in 2011. I hope that it will be an instructive year again. A year in which we soon will pass the 300 mark regarding the number of lecturesAnd a year that will show that it makes a lot of sense to add at least another 300 lectures to our philosophical quest of which I'll give a summary of what we have found so far and an impression of where we are heading for.In my introduction of the project in September 2010 I said, that the lectures and the research for them will be more of a test, a searching for the answer whether the materialist view is tenable or not, to clarify the arguments in favor and against this view.For now we will not discuss materialism, but take it for granted. First we started our the Mystery of the Brain from the point of view, that I am my brain.Although this means that only nature has real (scientific) meaning for me, we all know that our beliefs are not only derived from science. A lot are derived from religious ideas or supernatural ideas like reincarnation, astrology, clairvoyance, tarot readings and so on.It confronted us with the question "Why do we believe the Unbelievable?" I asserted that beliefs which rely on mechanisms and phenomena that go beyond our understanding of nature belong in the realm of supernatural beliefs. Beliefs that defy any test of their truth, like we can test scientific beliefs and hypotheses by falsifying them.Because I am my brain, supernatural beliefs can only be generated by my own brain; that is the real source. Based on that conclusion some thinkers even plead for abolishing any religious education. You know the names …..Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and others.However, if our brain is a product of evolution and has been our sole means to survive, then upholding supernatural beliefs must have been part of this evolutionary process.Bruce Hood questions the necessity of trying to ban all supernatural beliefs, and in this I agree with him. It is part of the wiring of our brain and it must have had a function in evolution. And it still has. To be honest…I love weird supernatural beliefs. They are the poetry in our life.The human species is a social animal. We need the group to survive and a group is only a group, if the individuals share certain beliefs with each other. As history shows, supernatural beliefs played and still play an important role in establishing cohesion in a group.Our next station was the fifth revolution. Through history a number of revolutions have completely transformed the view on ourselves.We were not the center of the universe. We were not created as we are now, but the result of millions of years of evolution. We are not such rational beings as we believed. It showed that we are controlled by all kinds of subconscious drives.We were not who we are by coincidence. Our DNA contains the perfect set of building blocks that makes us who we are and which can be modified decisively by genetic manipulations. We are makeable…And now the realm of the supernatural has fallen in the hands of science. We learn, that we are our brain, that a lot of ideas of which we believed had real existence are only the product of the brain.First we looked deep into space with a telescope,, then we were dug deep in the ground on archeological sites, next we looked inward into ourself. The microscope was our next resting place and now we lay in fMRI-scanners and PET-scanners.Now we follow the lead of the biology of the brain. What was regarded as spiritual experiences can be reproduced by magnetically stimulating the brain.Our moral beliefs and convictions are put under the fMRI - scanner and moral decision processes are mapped in the brain. It appears that from our birth on we posses a series of universal principles, which then are molded by cultural influences.Moreover there seems to be increasing evidence that the two hemispheres of the brain ( the rational and the emotional) are competing with each other, when we make moral decisions.Our next station will be the question how feeling happy is wired into our brain and we'll discuss a number of other neurological discoveries, but do't think that this is the science of mind and the end of the philosophy of mind.Philosophy in this field has become an interdisciplinary operation and believe me, in spite of all great scientific discoveries and insights, at the end we'll left behind with fundamental philosophical questions.But I want to show you what insights have been reached in the past 30 years. It is too exciting. Only in 1986 the term 'neurophilosophy' was coined. We have to looking that…ind int so many other things still.I am glad they opened up a whole new year for us, for we gonna need it!The Discussion
[2011/01/04 13:27] herman Bergson: Sorry for the lengthy text...:-)[2011/01/04 13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you[2011/01/04 13:28] herman Bergson: It seemed to have killed Alexia :-)[2011/01/04 13:28] BALDUR Joubert: smile .. if you said the more we know the more we know what we don't know i agree with you herman[2011/01/04 13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): good summation[2011/01/04 13:28] herman Bergson: thank you Gemma[2011/01/04 13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Baldur....[2011/01/04 13:29] herman Bergson: When we come to the real philosophical questions...really...we dont have the answers[2011/01/04 13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): It is in my mind often now as to how the enormous changes in technology and the use of all the new gadgets will affect evolution of the mind[2011/01/04 13:29] BALDUR Joubert: and i agree that philosophy has to deal with interdisciplinary science..[2011/01/04 13:30] herman Bergson: Well..I think that our knowledge of evolution causes a problem...[2011/01/04 13:30] BALDUR Joubert: 4 years ago i discussed with a philosopher the importance of historical knowledge [2011/01/04 13:30] herman Bergson: We live fast and we think fast....[2011/01/04 13:30] herman Bergson: but evolution needs tenthousands of years to establish a single change...[2011/01/04 13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): are we sure ... that that time will not also speed up[2011/01/04 13:31] BALDUR Joubert: did man -genetically-change inthe last 50000 years?[2011/01/04 13:32] herman Bergson: I don't know Baldur[2011/01/04 13:32] herman Bergson: But maybe he did[2011/01/04 13:32] BALDUR Joubert: well.. there are few indices for that.. so its not evolution of man.. but evolution of culture.. to say knowledge and society[2011/01/04 13:32] herman Bergson: Longlivety for instance is a genetically determined matter[2011/01/04 13:33] Alexia Rodeyn: people might have seen progress running that fast in past times too[2011/01/04 13:33] BALDUR Joubert: well from what i know its not genetic but medicine.. food..environment[2011/01/04 13:33] herman Bergson: if the number of people increase with that quality....reaching ages like 88 to 95....[2011/01/04 13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Alexia...but in relation toevolution these are only marginal and only technological changes[2011/01/04 13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yesterday i heard they have found a woman who may be 157 years old[2011/01/04 13:34] BALDUR Joubert: poor girl..lol[2011/01/04 13:34] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): how can they tell she is that old?[2011/01/04 13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• LOL ‚ô•[2011/01/04 13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i say so too[2011/01/04 13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are studying[2011/01/04 13:35] herman Bergson: such an individual instance is irrelevant...nice for the News media...that is all[2011/01/04 13:35] BALDUR Joubert: as for cultural evolution..just study the behaviour of our ancestors 30 000 years ago and today.. tribalwars.. religious wars.. power structures.. nothing new for mankind[2011/01/04 13:35] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): looking at her teeth???..[2011/01/04 13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• LOL ‚ô•[2011/01/04 13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): beertje[2011/01/04 13:36] herman Bergson: You are right to some extend Baldur...[2011/01/04 13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): her family[2011/01/04 13:36] herman Bergson: In fact you see all stages of social evolution in this world....[2011/01/04 13:36] herman Bergson: from primitive tribal behavior to rational individualistic behavior[2011/01/04 13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes from the jungles of south america to the thinking capitals of the work[2011/01/04 13:37] BALDUR Joubert: glad you call the bush policies primitve tribalbehaviours:)[2011/01/04 13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• LOL ‚ô•[2011/01/04 13:37] herman Bergson: lol..ok..Baldur...[2011/01/04 13:37] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): lol[2011/01/04 13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very true[2011/01/04 13:37] Alexia Rodeyn: i will have to agree with Baldur on that , i feel that only the tools and technologies have changed[2011/01/04 13:38] herman Bergson: I dont agree with that Alexia....[2011/01/04 13:38] BALDUR Joubert: no.. there i disagree.. we a re a learning species..[2011/01/04 13:38] herman Bergson: Our social behavior has changed too[2011/01/04 13:38] BALDUR Joubert: cause we have a memory..[2011/01/04 13:39] herman Bergson: not globally, but certainly insocieties which are science oriented[2011/01/04 13:39] BALDUR Joubert: aren't we the result of what has been said and thought bevore us'[2011/01/04 13:39] herman Bergson: Certainly Baldur....the better scientific insights the better we understand the world[2011/01/04 13:40] BALDUR Joubert: memory. language and then writing are what we are made of.. brainwise:)[2011/01/04 13:40] herman Bergson: Sure....what counts is what is in that memory and what is written down....[2011/01/04 13:41] herman Bergson: and in that respect scientific insights shape a lot of our world perception[2011/01/04 13:41] BALDUR Joubert: and what is transferred to new generations[2011/01/04 13:41] herman Bergson: That has been shown by history Baldur...[2011/01/04 13:41] BALDUR Joubert: scientific inside is of no value for someone who was taught that the world was created 5600 years ago[2011/01/04 13:41] herman Bergson: The scientific revolution began in the 17th century....[2011/01/04 13:42] herman Bergson: when religious explanations of relaity were abandoned[2011/01/04 13:42] BALDUR Joubert: should we say questionned[2011/01/04 13:43] herman Bergson: on the one hand now we have people that believe that the world will be a better place[2011/01/04 13:43] herman Bergson: with more medical car, education, ecological production of food....[2011/01/04 13:44] herman Bergson: and on the other hand we have people who believe the world will be a better place by blowing up themselves in a marketplace or in a church[2011/01/04 13:44] BALDUR Joubert: smile.. the problems the philosophers never dared to touch are emotions.. love.. laughter.. and more[2011/01/04 13:44] herman Bergson: Well...if it is about laughter....Aristotle already wrote about it...[2011/01/04 13:45] BALDUR Joubert: we don't have the text.. just that he wrote about it or am i wrong[2011/01/04 13:45] herman Bergson: To keep that secret the monestary in The Name of the `rose burned down ^_^[2011/01/04 13:46] BALDUR Joubert: i think it was a interesting subject of the book-and film[2011/01/04 13:46] herman Bergson: The Name of the Rose by Umberto Ecco....also a great movie staring Sean Connery![2011/01/04 13:46] BALDUR Joubert: church and love and laughter.. just a thing for the popes in the middle ages and even later..[2011/01/04 13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): seems i read that[2011/01/04 13:47] BALDUR Joubert: well..they didn't have a condom problem lol[2011/01/04 13:47] herman Bergson: Well..let's look into the future....[2011/01/04 13:48] herman Bergson: some people hope that there will be no church anymore....[2011/01/04 13:48] herman Bergson: no monotheistic fanatism...[2011/01/04 13:48] herman Bergson: but real insight in the human condition[2011/01/04 13:48] BALDUR Joubert: empathy.. mirror neurons:)[2011/01/04 13:49] herman Bergson: GREAT Baldur...!!!! The right words[2011/01/04 13:49] herman Bergson: Empathy IS wired into our brain!!!![2011/01/04 13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes it is[2011/01/04 13:49] BALDUR Joubert: i agree.. and not just ours[2011/01/04 13:49] herman Bergson: OK…Next lecture will be about altruism....[2011/01/04 13:50] herman Bergson: is it a product of education or is it a real part of the organism....[2011/01/04 13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hmmmm[2011/01/04 13:50] herman Bergson: Yes..fascinating question....[2011/01/04 13:50] BALDUR Joubert: thank you herman.. sorry i was overpresent tonight.. just too much time over the holidays to think:)[2011/01/04 13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ‚ô•[2011/01/04 13:50] herman Bergson: smiles...[2011/01/04 13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you thursday I hope i get home in time[2011/01/04 13:51] BALDUR Joubert: snow gemma?[2011/01/04 13:51] herman Bergson: thank you Baldur....You get your lecture next Thursday![2011/01/04 13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye „ã° [2011/01/04 13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): all[2011/01/04 13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ‚ô•[2011/01/04 13:51] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma...I am moved by your loyalty to the class[2011/01/04 13:51] herman Bergson: :-(.... and that remark she missed...[2011/01/04 13:52] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): sorry that i didn't say much..i needed my dictionary[2011/01/04 13:53] BALDUR Joubert: now you can talk beertje:)[2011/01/04 13:53] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): lol..[2011/01/04 13:53] herman Bergson: It is not primarily important what you say, Beertje....what is important is what you think...:-)[2011/01/04 13:53] herman Bergson: But if you want to tell us what you think...go ahead[2011/01/04 13:53] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): no..i have to think about that[2011/01/04 13:54] herman Bergson: smiles..[2011/01/04 13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your paricipation...[2011/01/04 13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thanks herman: -) for, 2009, 2010 and 2011: -) it is good to think WITH you[2011/01/04 13:54] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman[2011/01/04 13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all :-) see u!![2011/01/04 13:54] herman Bergson: See you next Thursday in a lecture on Altruism...dedicated to Baldur :-)[2011/01/04 13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Bergie[2011/01/04 13:55] Alexia Rodeyn: is the class at the same time on Thursday ?[2011/01/04 13:55] BALDUR Joubert: thank you.. and i'll follow up with egoism lol[2011/01/04 13:55] Alexia Rodeyn: lol[2011/01/04 13:56] herman Bergson: Yes Alexia..[2011/01/04 13:56] herman Bergson: every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM PST[2011/01/04 13:56] Alexia Rodeyn: Baldur gave me the link to your blog[2011/01/04 13:56] BALDUR Joubert: isn't he a nice guy:)[2011/01/04 13:57] herman Bergson: wow...cool[2011/01/04 13:57] Alexia Rodeyn: i have still very much to read about your previous topics[2011/01/04 13:57] herman Bergson: yes...30 lectures :-)[2011/01/04 13:57] BALDUR Joubert: i thought we were close to 300[2011/01/04 13:57] Alexia Rodeyn: but that will be a nice dare for me as a person who calls her a tech nerd[2011/01/04 13:57] Alexia Rodeyn: »ò)[2011/01/04 13:58] herman Bergson: ok..:-)[2011/01/04 13:58] herman Bergson: Give it a try Alexia[2011/01/04 13:58] BALDUR Joubert: don;t dare her herman..she might lol[2011/01/04 13:59] Alexia Rodeyn: i will[2011/01/04 13:59] herman Bergson: She is welcome Baldur :-)[2011/01/04 13:59] Alexia Rodeyn: was nice meeting you , see you on thursday then[2011/01/04 13:59] Alexia Rodeyn: bye[2011/01/04 13:59] BALDUR Joubert: yes..but when she is acquainted with the topics..its propably the moment i have to retire lol[2011/01/04 14:00] herman Bergson: You are welcome Alexia[2011/01/04 14:01] BALDUR Joubert: pity we have never enough time to discuss details..but -a compliment to you.. i might go back to university and take some history and philo classes:)[2011/01/04 14:02] herman Bergson: thank you Baldur...[2011/01/04 14:02] herman Bergson: You arent getting rusty are you....???!!![2011/01/04 14:02] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. i am.. that's why i thought of that..[2011/01/04 14:03] BALDUR Joubert: ok.. got to go and talk to my friend.. see you thursday.
A lot of people in the world believe that all kinds of revelations and apparitions are proof of the existence of supernatural beings or One supernatural being.There may be another explanation for these phenomena. According to recent research, religiosity is dislocated and strung out along a neural network comprised of the frontal, parietal and temporal lobes of the brain.Decreased parietal lobe activity, for example, has been linked to some religious experiences, while the decision-making and social aspects of religion seem to interplay in the frontal lobes. It is the temporal lobes that have been the focus of significant recent interest for their connection between epilepsy and religious visions and conversion. Epileptic seizures, and the brain chemistry at work between seizures, leads in some patients to a “gradual personality change which disposes them to mystical and religious thinking,” says neurologist Oliver Sacks in an interview with Big Think.Especially this Temporal Lobe Epilepsy (TLE) appears to be even historically documented. In between seizures patients often suffer of the "Geschwind Syndrome" , named after Norman Geschwind, who published about a related behavioral complex. Norman Geschwind (1926–1984) can be considered the father of modern behavioral neurology in America.There are 18 personality traits that define the syndrome: emotionality, euphoria, the idea to have a mission, strong moral feelings, deep religiosity, depression and some other, but as you see well defined characteristics of the behavior of someone who had just an apparition and now tells us about his mission as a religious zealot.It is known of Mohammed, that he had epileptic seizures since he was 6 years old, which were accompanied by religious experiences. In 610 Mohammed gets his first apparitions, in which he heard the voice of the archangel Gabriel.Jeanne d'Arc, born in 1412 as a daughter of a French farmer died at the pyre in 1431 at the age of 19. Her life history, including her epileptic seizures, is meticulously documented by the Inquisition. When she was 13 she heard the voice of God for the first time.Other names are Vincent van Gogh and Dostojevski, who showed the same epileptic behavior and accompanying religious experiences and hallucinations.These temporal lobe epileptic seizures (TLE) last only 30 seconds to 2 minutes or so, tho the patient has no sense of time after the seizure. He may have the feeling that it lasted hours, like Mohammed told that he had visited the paradise.These insights, that the brain generates religiosity, have lead to the belief, that by artificial stimulation of certain brain areas, especially the temporal lobes, you can provoke religiouslike experiences.Dr. Michael Persinger (born June 26, 1945) is a cognitive neuroscience researcher and university professor. He has worked at Laurentian University, Canada since 1971.He developed the socalled "God helmet". Inside the helmet are magnetic coils. You sit in a dark and sound-proof room, when the helmet is activated.People then get all kinds of experiences: feeling a presence, seeing a light, seeing ancestors, even see Jesus, mainly depending on cultural and educational backgrounds. Todd Murphy, a Behavioral Neuroscientist associated with Dr. Michael Persinger, even made a commercial version of the helmet, tho it is still an area of research with many unanswered questions and serious controversies.So if you want to experience apparitions or revelations maybe such a device might be a nice present for Christmas.Because of Thanksgiving Day there will be no class on Thursday. However, this does not mean that you are free. I strongly advise you to watch the interviews of Lionel Tiger and Oliver Sacks and read the article on URLhttp://bigthink.com/ideas/23960The Discussion[13:20] herman Bergson: thank you....[13:20] Ortwin Sveiss: Does this all also mean that people with certain brain disfunctions can´t have any religious feelings at all no matter how hard they try?[13:20] herman Bergson: and let me answer Ortwins question...[13:21] herman Bergson: A very important one....[13:21] herman Bergson: In the first place you must keep in mind that like all human traits they are there or not[13:21] herman Bergson: I mean...[13:21] herman Bergson: all persons have length[13:22] herman Bergson: but some are very short and others very tall and the majority is inbetween[13:22] herman Bergson: We call that the Gauss distribution or curve...[13:23] herman Bergson: So ..yes Ortwin..some people might be incapable of religious feelings..[13:23] herman Bergson: And annecdote in this matter...[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: i think that's wrong[13:23] Florencio Flores: ooh man[13:23] herman Bergson: Persinger tried the God Helmet on Richard Dawkins....[13:23] herman Bergson: an outspoken atheist...writer of the God Delusion...[13:24] herman Bergson: It had no effect whatsoever...Dawkins reported...[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: consistant brain wiring[13:24] herman Bergson: There are sociopates who are absolutely incapable of experiencing moral feelings...[13:24] herman Bergson: same story....[13:25] herman Bergson: so they become a serial killer for instance[13:25] herman Bergson: merciless as it seems[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: i wonder how they would describe a religious experience that is shared at the same time by several like at Fatima[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: don'zt tell us the god helmet is a miracle maker.. its more a toy in the name of science [13:25] herman Bergson: Group hysteria, Gemma?[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: that is what i was thinking or hypnotism[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:26] herman Bergson: something like that....I guess[13:26] Bejiita Imako: might be[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: neurology is stiff full of guesses..[13:26] herman Bergson: the God Helmet isn't a miracle maker at all Baldur...[13:26] Chi Aho: Has the God Helmet been tried on other atheists?[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: no an experiment in what works in the brain[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes there still is a lot to learn Baldur, but this is already an example of WHAT we have learnt[13:27] herman Bergson: and this development will go on[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: so what is it..an experiment nothing more where you can study certain reactions.. but careful with conclusions pleas[13:27] Chi Aho: a large number, other than Dawkins?[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: yes true[13:27] herman Bergson: the conclusions are quite clear....we are our brain....[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: i think we know as much about the brain right now as astronomers knew after Copernicus[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: but so much more to learn[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: before Glalilei and Kepler[13:28] herman Bergson: I cant make that evaluation Baldur...[13:28] Florencio Flores: that's what i think[13:28] Florencio Flores: brain is totally all[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: why not herman[13:28] Florencio Flores: it creates sensations, realities, everythin[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: grrr...so very interesting but RL is pulling me away.....thanks Professor....good bye everyone :)[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: ari[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Baldur if you take Copernicus as an example...[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: bye ari[13:29] Bejiita Imako: bye ari[13:29] Beertje Beaumont: goodbye Ari[13:29] Bejiita Imako: cu[13:29] herman Bergson: His insights changed our worldview completely[13:29] herman Bergson: and as I said in another lecture...[13:29] herman Bergson: the neurological insights will be the 5th revolution[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: yes.. so does brain neurology and all connected sciences. but with copernicus there was no knowledge how the system works[13:30] herman Bergson: and change our worldview too completely[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: just that there is a system different from what one thought[13:30] herman Bergson: what is your point Baldur?[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: that too many say too many things about brain functioning in a social-psychological context..[13:31] Simargl Talaj: Is the lecture over? Are we in discussion deliberately or by mistake now?[13:31] herman Bergson: Dont overlook the fundamental philosophical startingpoint of this project....[13:32] herman Bergson: the starting point is that of materialism....[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: right.. that's what i want to look at.. but neurologists should not enter the field of philosophy just like that[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: discussion simargi[13:32] herman Bergson: That can not be avoided anymore Baldur...[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: oh but baldur they had to do that[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: observing and studiying phenomena does not give al the aswers[13:33] herman Bergson: Philosophy is not just some island[13:33] herman Bergson: Oh nooooo[13:33] herman Bergson: absolutely not...[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: they are finding evidence of how we think and what the brain does to effect that[13:33] herman Bergson: But the evidence they have found on our inclination to believe in supernatural things...[13:34] herman Bergson: and what consequence that has for Cartesian Dualism...[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: yes.. but if you ask an honest neurologist he will tell you that what we know today is not even the tip of an iceberg[13:34] herman Bergson: A real philosophical impact...[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: so no hasty conclusions about religion please[13:34] Simargl Talaj: An atheist, I have what I believe is religious feeling. Much is sacred to me, but not gods.[13:34] herman Bergson: there are no hasty conclusion on religion here...[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: Herman has always tried to keep to the faith out of the class[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: it intrudes tho[13:35] herman Bergson: all that we think there is is generated by our brain...[13:35] Florencio Flores: yes i'm agree[13:35] Florencio Flores: GOD and DEVIL is just a creation[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: you said one thing cited -correctly.. when referring to culturaln and social basis[13:35] herman Bergson: I think we have to a clarify distinction here....[13:36] Florencio Flores: alltought if we want we can create another dimension world[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: that is a basis for religious thought..[13:36] herman Bergson: religion is a cultural phenomenon....[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: we can't say our ancestors 50000 ago were all epilectics[13:36] herman Bergson: and several times I have pointed at its function in the durvival process of evolution...[13:36] Florencio Flores: i like to believe on machines and on future =)!![13:37] herman Bergson: a completely different debate is on the metaphysics behind some religious belief...[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:37] herman Bergson: that is for theologians...not for us[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: survival- well might well be-- but certainly first of all of social importance[13:37] Simargl Talaj: Our *experience* is still philosophical, not biological. We feel, think, as distinct from sensing movement of electrons and sodium ions over neuron membranes of the parietal.[13:38] Simargl Talaj: So we still have philosophical things to discuss, even as biologists.[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: you believe your thinking has nothing to do with neurons sim?[13:38] Simargl Talaj: I know that it has everything to do with neurons.[13:38] herman Bergson: Well simargl..if you mean that the concept of consciousness is a philosophicla problem...yes you are right...[13:38] Chi Aho: I don't think Sim is saying that; he is cautioning against the pitfall of reductionism[13:38] Simargl Talaj: But my experience is better described in words than in diagrams of electron potential.[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: of course you are right about the 5th revolution herman..[13:39] herman Bergson: despite all neurobiology....we are also conscious .....[13:39] herman Bergson: and that is a hell of a philosophical problem...[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: concious- needs neurons to be that[13:39] herman Bergson: but we ill get to that much later in this project[13:39] Simargl Talaj: re Geschwind --Well before Geschwind -- 1873 Religious Sentiment in Epileptics -- Howden[13:40] herman Bergson: Well..a nice discussion.....[13:40] Simargl Talaj: Interesting to me -- religious conversion in epileptics http://eugrafal.free.fr/Dewhurst-Beard-2003.pdf[13:40] herman Bergson: the challenge is on the table....:-)[13:40] BALDUR Joubert: i think already in the middle ages the church was sensible to the problem sim[13:40] Simargl Talaj: Yes, Hildegarde[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: smile[13:41] Florencio Flores: o.O[13:41] Florencio Flores: !![13:41] Simargl Talaj: Hildegard was willing to accept scientific contradiction of her interpretation of her own migraine or epileptic visions though[13:41] herman Bergson: Ah you mean Hildegard von Bingen 1100[13:41] Simargl Talaj: Yes sorry[13:41] Simargl Talaj: trying to keep the word count down.[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes she is an example ...she suffered of heavy headaches indeed[13:42] herman Bergson: Well to get to a conclusion yet....religion is generated by the brain....[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: none of this explains the origins of religion- brain wiring as herman said or cultural learning process[13:43] Florencio Flores: i try to conquer the world =D!! hihihi[13:43] Florencio Flores: o.O[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: no it doesnt[13:43] Simargl Talaj: ah I think it helps explain origins of religion[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: but[13:43] herman Bergson: and no ..not all ancestors were TLE patients....you need only one Mohammed and favorable conditions to get an islam for instance[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: what was needed for the first burial rites[13:44] herman Bergson: or one St. Paul.... who had epileptic seizures too[13:44] herman Bergson: or a St. John....his apocalyptic stories are as if he was completely stoned all the time[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: there were brains- physically the same who didn't do that[13:45] Simargl Talaj: bah, John, Revelations. Bad mushrooms!!!![13:45] herman Bergson: that is an impossibility Baldur...[13:45] herman Bergson: There are no two brains the same in this world...[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: sim.. mushrooms may be.. but they do exist in writing[13:45] herman Bergson: they show similarities yes...[13:45] Simargl Talaj: non pathelogical neurobiology ....consciousness....has desires that are elucidated by the extremes in pathology.[13:45] Florencio Flores: =)[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: physically generally speaking yes herman.. not on the neuron-or below level[13:46] Simargl Talaj: I think the epilepsy cases are useful, informative here.[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: There were also other hallucigenic herbs in the desert also[13:46] Simargl Talaj: and "mad honey" but I think John was just an ass. Occam's razor.[13:46] herman Bergson: Well Baldur...there are not only neurons..there is also the wiring of the brain that is created by education and culture...[13:46] herman Bergson: to give you an example...[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: smile.. well occam didn't live at the time[13:47] herman Bergson: in Asian cultures there are also TLE patients...[13:47] herman Bergson: they show similar behavior....but never one of them had an apparition of the Virgin Marie or Jesus[13:47] Florencio Flores: you know Baldur inside the brain exist galaxies and energies of the universe[13:48] Florencio Flores: you can create anything with the brain[13:48] Florencio Flores: right proffesor?[13:48] Simargl Talaj: not nuclear fusion I hope[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: which confirms that religion as such is a cultural element learned by our brain[13:48] herman Bergson: welll..even more....[13:48] Simargl Talaj: because that could get messy.[13:48] herman Bergson: we talk about the brain as if it were one object....[13:48] herman Bergson: physically it is[13:48] herman Bergson: but in its functioning it is way more complex....[13:49] Florencio Flores: yes sensorial is other[13:49] BALDUR Joubert: Flo you can't create everything.. you can't think of something where you have no reference to.. like the huavifhekj[13:49] herman Bergson: Oh yes you can Baldur[13:49] Florencio Flores: yes the brain is everythin[13:49] herman Bergson: the huavifhekj is green....very small and lives under big rocks ^_^[13:49] BALDUR Joubert: ok.. so what are you thinking about myx hua.... hermaqn[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: good...lol[13:50] Simargl Talaj: and yet Baldur when you write the word huavifhekj I immediately make up a concept for the word. A yellow fish, in fact. Within less than a second.[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: so you are thinking abouit things you have a reference to..[13:50] herman Bergson: No it lives under big rocks Simargl...I was first ^_^[13:50] Simargl Talaj: hua is Chinese for yellow[13:51] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:51] Simargl Talaj: Ah, Herman, infidel! You are wrong. I must now oppress you.[13:51] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. greeat[13:51] herman Bergson: LOL....[13:51] Bejiita Imako: lol[13:51] Simargl Talaj: yelow! Heretic![13:51] Florencio Flores: yes i believe on brain is everything Baldur i create another reality[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all for this great discussion....[13:51] BALDUR Joubert: all you do is invent -on the basis of what you know[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:51] Bejiita Imako: NO ITS A RED MONSTER[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:51] Simargl Talaj: Baldur, yes, of course[13:51] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:51] Qwark Allen: thank you[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: no class Thursday[13:51] herman Bergson: Will be continued!!![13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: see you next tuesday[13:51] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Qwark Allen donated L$50. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated![13:51] Simargl Talaj throws Bejito to the lions!![13:51] herman Bergson: NO Gemma..but dont forget the homework[13:51] Florencio Flores: here where i live people don't likes to believe on what i create because this gets you the truth[13:51] Bejiita Imako: interesting as usual ㋡[13:52] Bejiita Imako: tnx[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: yep bookmarked it[13:52] Florencio Flores: true*[13:52] Beertje Beaumont: Благослови тебя господь![13:52] Qwark Allen: ehheeh i try to read it to[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed[13:52] Bejiita Imako: \o/[13:52] Bejiita Imako: || Hoooo![13:52] Bejiita Imako: / \[13:52] Qwark Allen: was very interesting as alwyas[13:52] BALDUR Joubert: smile.. thank you for your class herman.. exiting as usual:)[13:52] herman Bergson: thank you Qwark...:-)[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yeah[13:52] Beertje Beaumont: До свидания.[13:53] herman Bergson: Cool Beertje :-)[13:53] Simargl Talaj: Thank you Herman.[13:53] Beertje Beaumont: lol[13:53] BALDUR Joubert: communication as another great moment for the brain bee[13:53] Beertje Beaumont: Увидимся позднее.[13:53] Beertje Beaumont: ok?[13:53] Florencio Flores: the brain going to make history[13:54] herman Bergson: I'll let you know Beertje[13:54] Beertje Beaumont: :))[13:54] Beertje Beaumont: goed[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes it will Florencio[13:54] Florencio Flores: =)[13:55] Zinzi Serevi: bedankt Herman[13:55] Zinzi Serevi: het was leuk er weer eens bij te zijn[13:55] herman Bergson: was een genoegen Zinzi[13:56] Ortwin Sveiss: bedankt , het was heel leerzaam[13:56] Zinzi Serevi: ik ga naar huis[13:56] Zinzi Serevi: blijf jij nog maar wat nakletsen[13:56] Ortwin Sveiss: zo leer ik je ook nog eens van een minder scabreuze kant kennen[13:56] herman Bergson: met wie Zinzi...lol[13:56] Ortwin Sveiss: hahahahah[13:57] Florencio Flores: herman thanks for great class and discussion[13:57] Ortwin Sveiss: verkeerde vakje[13:57] Florencio Flores: =)[13:57] Florencio Flores: bye[13:57] herman Bergson: glimlacht[13:57] herman Bergson: Geniet van het SLeven Ortwin ^_^[13:58] herman Bergson: mooi woord wel.....scabreus.....horje maar weinig
Last Tuesday I ended my lecture with these words: "With the evolution of modern man there have emerged five characteristic behaviors, which you find in all cultures: language, the making of tools, music, art and religion.Of all these behaviors we have found predecessors in the animal kingdom, except religion. Yet, mankind survived, so we only can conclude that religion must have had an evolutionary advantage for the homo sapiens."Did religion help the species Homo sapiens to survive? To get to a clear answer we have to be more specific from an evolutionary point of view.The brain is wired in such a way that it has the capacity to generate spiritual ideas and concepts. This means that we are willing to believe that there is more than just what we see.With which spiritual ideas the individual brain comes up with is unpredictable, but we have to take another factor into account. The Homo sapiens is a social animal, so he lives in groups.We all know about group dynamics, be it chicken, wolves or humans. There always is a dominating individual member or a small group of dominating members. It is obvious that the dominating group members dictate which ideas prevail.When spiritual, supernatural ideas are institutionalized you get a religion, a set of ideas that is accepted by all members of the group or tribe and thence comes the evolutionary advantage.In the first place religion keeps a group together. The Jews, for instance, have survived due to their religious beliefs in spite of the diaspora and holocaust.For leaders religion is a perfect instrument. Like Seneca (ca. 54 BC – ca. 39 AD) said: " Simple minded people regard religion as true, wise people as false and rulers as useful"And thence come the rules for the group: it is not allowed to marry someone who does not share your religion. Social control by threatening with all kinds of punishments from above.You have to be recognizable as true believer. So you show this in your clothing, black clothes, a keppel, a burke. And of course you have to make as many children as possible. A common rule in many religions.Religion brings comfort to people in hard times (even when they are caused by a merciless ruler). And when life is that bad, there always is a better afterlife waiting for the believer.100.000 years ago homo sapiens already believed in an afterlife. This can be concluded from what was put in the graves of the dead: food, tools, jewelry.These are all perfect ingredients to protect the group and kill the infidel, that is…..competing groups or tribes, who threaten your resources and survival. Killing in the name of your god is allowed then.Even today we see these mechanisms at work. Not just in one religion: weird sects, which commit collective suicide, terrorism inspired by the Koran or the Bible, xenophobia, discrimination of certain groups in the collective… and so on.Would the world be better off without religion? Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris would immediately say : YES! But is this true?When you look at the Evolution chart on the wall to the left of me, you can see that homo sapiens exists in fact only for a short time compared to other species.Our evolution has hardly begun. So the right question would be…What will be the role of religion (in a globalized world) in 100.000 years?Spirituality is hard wired in the brain. There is proof of that even from prehistoric man. Institutionalizing individual spirituality is a next step in culture. Some of these institutions are already decaying these days…. maybe a sign that a more scientific view on reality is more appealing and appropriate?The Discussion[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you....[13:19] herman Bergson: You have the floor :-)[13:19] AristotleVon Doobie: brb[13:19] Bejiita Imako: oki[13:20] BALDUR Joubert: where can i find scientific basis for your assumption that spirituality is hard wired in the brain[13:20] herman Bergson: looks around[13:20] herman Bergson: any questions or remarks?[13:20] Simargl Talaj: Animals don't pray.Humanity creates its gods.So, faith's good for us?[13:20] Simargl Talaj: Cats eat what they kill.Only humans torture, gloat.Torture's good for us?[13:21] Simargl Talaj: Existence of traitsnot proof they are adaptivestains: didn't wash out.[13:21] BALDUR Joubert: cat's torture too -in our sense..[13:21] herman Bergson: those are non sequiturs Siargl...[13:21] BALDUR Joubert: ever saw a cat play with a mouse?[13:21] herman Bergson: No logic in that[13:21] herman Bergson: Oh yes...[13:22] herman Bergson: a cat can play with a mouse for an hour without killing it...[13:22] herman Bergson: and afeterwords it even doesnt eat it[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: ▓▒░ ♪♫♩ ॐ ॐ ॐ ((-: QWARK :-)) ॐ ॐ ॐ ♪♫♩ ▓▒░[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: is ill so went to bed[13:22] herman Bergson: awww...poor felllow...[13:22] Bejiita Imako: aaaw[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: right that is true[13:23] AristotleVon Doobie: honing its killing skils, and doent need them mostly today[13:23] AristotleVon Doobie: the primal brain in action[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: right ari...like wolves who will kill as many sheep as possible in a heard[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: some animals only kill when they need to eat[13:24] Simargl Talaj: My dog hopes, pleads, thanksme, my opposible thumbs.Am I not his god?[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: we are the same, only with rationality to curb the play killing, or ideally[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: you're an alpha for your dog sim[13:25] herman Bergson: No Simargl....dogs have no supernatural ideas...[13:25] herman Bergson: you are just the dominant member of the group[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: we teach our children how to, still[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: how to do what ari[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: like religion is taught from the cradle[13:26] AristotleVon Doobie: to kill, to survive primally[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: you do ari?[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle..that is the idea of my lecture todya....[13:26] herman Bergson: and the former one..[13:26] herman Bergson: Religion is a good tool to control the group...[13:26] itsme Frederix: So you have a mission Herman?[13:26] AristotleVon Doobie: I do not, but I have seen the results of the behavior up close....most just follow the path handed to them from the previous generation[13:27] herman Bergson: on the other hand...the group loves to believe all in the same ideas[13:27] Simargl Talaj: God, too tall to seeMysterious can openerfaith: imagined alphas[13:27] itsme Frederix: and its a nessecarity![13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: religion is like collective comfort food[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: how did religion start?[13:27] Beertje Beaumont: it's safe[13:28] herman Bergson: Save me your mystic can openers Simargl[13:28] herman Bergson: In a simple way Baldur...[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: we find safety in being surrounded by like kind[13:28] herman Bergson: The brain searches for patterns, structures, order...[13:28] itsme Frederix: you are all to sceptic (is it me that is saying this) religion also has an association with a deeper feeling for sense (supersense), its in us[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: well.. i'm thinking 100000 years ago when a group consisted of a larger family of 4-to 10 memebers[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Itsme...I dont deny that...[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: it is in us from somewhere, I cant aruge that[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: but where is the question for me[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hmm that is possible for sure[13:29] herman Bergson: One half of our brain loves to come up with supernatural ideas to understand the world around us[13:29] itsme Frederix: then lets be possitive about our selves and what is experience but stay critical to official who miss use the thing[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: language was at the most very primitive[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...just look at the situation....[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: questions of survival must have been predominant..[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes baldur...[13:31] herman Bergson: you are in a situation you dont understand and you have to move fast...[13:31] herman Bergson: The left hemisphere of the brain does that...is intuitive....[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: i do?[13:31] itsme Frederix: its is heuristic (it worked well several times, so lets do it again)[13:32] herman Bergson: yes Itsme....[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: doing by learning .....[13:32] herman Bergson: rational thinking and analysis is slow..takes time....[13:32] itsme Frederix: procedural behaviour[13:32] herman Bergson: not the tool to survive when in immediate danger[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: a 100000 years ago it would not only be slow..[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: but limited[13:33] herman Bergson: No Baldur..it was hardly used...then[13:33] itsme Frederix: still limitted ;)[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: lol..[13:33] herman Bergson: tool making is an example of rational thinking...[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: so what was the tool for survival..[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: in immediate danger..[13:34] herman Bergson: the brain Baldur...[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: of course.. that goes for almost any animal[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: primal instinct are instantly available, rationally we temper those based on the situation[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: may be before we think of rational we should think of reasoning?[13:35] herman Bergson: The first thing we do is think intuitively...[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: primal instincts are rational.. if the species survives..:)[13:36] herman Bergson: rationality comes later[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: desire for an attractive, potential mate in the middle of a restaurant is tempered by empirical data we have gathered[13:36] herman Bergson: that is also what you see in the development of mind[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: coward ari lol[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL[13:36] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: but in many other instances also[13:37] herman Bergson: what kind of restaurant was that Aristotle?[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: :))[13:37] Bejiita Imako: :)¨[13:37] herman Bergson: Was she on the menu?[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: may be the empirical data you have is a slap in the face?[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: a family one, who dictate 'n'[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: no[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: lol[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: would dictate a 'no'[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, that is right BAlDUR[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:38] herman Bergson: Well I notice that nobody has really questions about what I put forward..[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: as you see humans can share experiences:)[13:38] Simargl Talaj: I promised silenceor haiku; useful thoughts, no --alas, too many words.[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: my point of course is we control our instincts by rationality[13:39] herman Bergson: And Simargl has her poetic moments here..^_^[13:39] herman Bergson: ok[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle....[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: so what do you think about religion sim..[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: or yield to them, in the same manor[13:39] herman Bergson: That is the battle between the right and left hemisphere of the brain[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: in prose ..:)[13:40] herman Bergson: But from an evolutionary point of view, the intuitive thinking may have come first[13:40] itsme Frederix: well Herman that a simplified drawing you made up[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: yes I agree Herman[13:40] herman Bergson: yes Itsme..I love to keep it simple ^_^[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥[13:41] itsme Frederix: me too, I stay with the appelpijnboomklier[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: the KISS theory[13:41] herman Bergson: Descartes Itsme?[13:41] herman Bergson: Dualism?[13:41] itsme Frederix: Good guess, yes[13:42] herman Bergson: Interesting[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: descartes and kisses?[13:42] herman Bergson: And it wasnt a guess :-)[13:42] itsme Frederix: Baldur he shove himself (the barber did not)[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: ok...[13:42] itsme Frederix: shove ? shaved[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: probably cut himself..[13:43] herman Bergson: But Itsme..to get it straight....you hold that dualism is what reality is ?[13:44] itsme Frederix: well we have only a small interval (80 years) to think about it and feel concerned, then its over and another has the burden[13:44] herman Bergson: I mean the reality of body and mind?[13:44] itsme Frederix: Herman, sure not[13:44] herman Bergson: sorry...I misunderstood I guess[13:44] itsme Frederix: just kidding and making it more simple, not left not right but just one piece of the body[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: if only the body were one piece .....[13:45] herman Bergson: But one thing is for sure....[13:45] itsme Frederix: i go for TAO, it just goes[13:45] herman Bergson: in relation to evolution...our personal existence is just the blink of an eye[13:46] herman Bergson: while we have the feeling that we are IT, complete ..all human[13:46] itsme Frederix: That right Herman, and sometimes that is a burden we all have to deal with[13:47] herman Bergson: Just nice to know it only takes about 80 years :-)[13:47] itsme Frederix: yes that helps[13:47] herman Bergson: smiles[13:47] herman Bergson: ok...my friends[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: ok[13:47] Simargl Talaj: Just to kiss Descartecan be done without a wordMore takes *two* paragraphs.[13:47] itsme Frederix: a tiny tiny bit[13:47] herman Bergson: next lecture will be on religious experiences....[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: ah[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok[13:48] itsme Frederix: More is writing about Utopia[13:48] herman Bergson: not coming form above but created by magnetism...:-)[13:48] itsme Frederix: just be[13:48] herman Bergson: So Thank you all for you r participation[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: omg.. magnetism? messmer?[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismisssed :-)[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you, Professor[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok[13:49] Bejiita Imako: interesting as usual ㋡[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: yes very[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman!! &Class[13:49] Simargl Talaj: Thank you. You do great preparation for our benefit. It is a great gift.[13:49] herman Bergson: No Baldur...a real scientist[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: see you Tuesday[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: oh........the body is a mass of tissue, manipulated by the brain as directed by the mind[13:49] herman Bergson: no Aristotle....[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: trilogism?[13:50] herman Bergson: that is the homunculus theory...lol[13:50] itsme Frederix: or worse Ari, the other way around, just surviving DNA[13:50] herman Bergson: do you ever learn...lol[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: other way round ari--[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:51] BALDUR Joubert: and do'nt forget brain is nothing more than a mass of tissue too:)
