293: A summary

Welcome to you all again in 2011. I hope that it will be an instructive year again. A year in which we soon will pass the 300 mark regarding the number of lectures

And a year that will show that it makes a lot of sense to add at least another 300 lectures to our philosophical quest of which I'll give a summary of what we have found so far and an impression of where we are heading for.

In my introduction of the project in September 2010 I said, that the lectures and the research for them will be more of a test, a searching for the answer whether the materialist view is tenable or not, to clarify the arguments in favor and against this view.

For now we will not discuss materialism, but take it for granted. First we started our the Mystery of the Brain from the point of view, that I am my brain.

Although this means that only nature has real (scientific) meaning for me, we all know that our beliefs are not only derived from science. A lot are derived from religious ideas or supernatural ideas like reincarnation, astrology, clairvoyance, tarot readings and so on.

It confronted us with the question "Why do we believe the Unbelievable?" I asserted that beliefs which rely on mechanisms and phenomena that go beyond our understanding of nature belong in the realm of supernatural beliefs. Beliefs that defy any test of their truth, like we can test scientific beliefs and hypotheses by falsifying them.

Because I am my brain, supernatural beliefs can only be generated by my own brain; that is the real source. Based on that conclusion some thinkers even plead for abolishing any religious education. You know the names …..Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and others.

However, if our brain is a product of evolution and has been our sole means to survive, then upholding supernatural beliefs must have been part of this evolutionary process.

Bruce Hood questions the necessity of trying to ban all supernatural beliefs, and in this I agree with him. It is part of the wiring of our brain and it must have had a function in evolution. And it still has. To be honest…I love weird supernatural beliefs. They are the poetry in our life.

The human species is a social animal. We need the group to survive and a group is only a group, if the individuals share certain beliefs with each other. As history shows, supernatural beliefs played and still play an important role in establishing cohesion in a group.

Our next station was the fifth revolution. Through history a number of revolutions have completely transformed the view on ourselves.

We were not the center of the universe. We were not created as we are now, but the result of millions of years of evolution. We are not such rational beings as we believed. It showed that we are controlled by all kinds of subconscious drives.

We were not who we are by coincidence. Our DNA contains the perfect set of building blocks that makes us who we are and which can be modified decisively by genetic manipulations. We are makeable…

And now the realm of the supernatural has fallen in the hands of science. We learn, that we are our brain, that a lot of ideas of which we believed had real existence are only the product of the brain.

First we looked deep into space with a telescope,, then we were dug deep in the ground on archeological sites, next we looked inward into ourself. The microscope was our next resting place and now we lay in fMRI-scanners and PET-scanners.

Now we follow the lead of the biology of the brain. What was regarded as spiritual experiences can be reproduced by magnetically stimulating the brain.

Our moral beliefs and convictions are put under the fMRI - scanner and moral decision processes are mapped in the brain. It appears that from our birth on we posses a series of universal principles, which then are molded by cultural influences.

Moreover there seems to be increasing evidence that the two hemispheres of the brain ( the rational and the emotional) are competing with each other, when we make moral decisions.

Our next station will be the question how feeling happy is wired into our brain and we'll discuss a number of other neurological discoveries, but do't think that this is the science of mind and the end of the philosophy of mind.

Philosophy in this field has become an interdisciplinary operation and believe me, in spite of all great scientific discoveries and insights, at the end we'll left behind with fundamental philosophical questions.

But I want to show you what insights have been reached in the past 30 years. It is too exciting. Only in 1986 the term 'neurophilosophy' was coined. We have to looking that…ind int so many other things still.

I am glad they opened up a whole new year for us, for we gonna need it!


The Discussion

[2011/01/04 13:27] herman Bergson: Sorry for the lengthy text...:-)
[2011/01/04 13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you
[2011/01/04 13:28] herman Bergson: It seemed to have killed Alexia :-)
[2011/01/04 13:28] BALDUR Joubert: smile .. if you said the more we know the more we know what we don't know i agree with you herman
[2011/01/04 13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): good summation
[2011/01/04 13:28] herman Bergson: thank you Gemma
[2011/01/04 13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Baldur....
[2011/01/04 13:29] herman Bergson: When we come to the real philosophical questions...really...we dont have the answers
[2011/01/04 13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): It is in my mind often now as to how the enormous changes in technology and the use of all the new gadgets will affect evolution of the mind
[2011/01/04 13:29] BALDUR Joubert: and i agree that philosophy has to deal with interdisciplinary science..
[2011/01/04 13:30] herman Bergson: Well..I think that our knowledge of evolution causes a problem...
[2011/01/04 13:30] BALDUR Joubert: 4 years ago i discussed with a philosopher the importance of historical knowledge
[2011/01/04 13:30] herman Bergson: We live fast and we think fast....
[2011/01/04 13:30] herman Bergson: but evolution needs tenthousands of years to establish a single change...
[2011/01/04 13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): are we sure ... that that time will not also speed up
[2011/01/04 13:31] BALDUR Joubert: did man -genetically-change inthe last 50000 years?
[2011/01/04 13:32] herman Bergson: I don't know Baldur
[2011/01/04 13:32] herman Bergson: But maybe he did
[2011/01/04 13:32] BALDUR Joubert: well.. there are few indices for that.. so its not evolution of man.. but evolution of culture.. to say knowledge and society
[2011/01/04 13:32] herman Bergson: Longlivety for instance is a genetically determined matter
[2011/01/04 13:33] Alexia Rodeyn: people might have seen progress running that fast in past times too
[2011/01/04 13:33] BALDUR Joubert: well from what i know its not genetic but medicine.. food..environment
[2011/01/04 13:33] herman Bergson: if the number of people increase with that quality....reaching ages like 88 to 95....
[2011/01/04 13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Alexia...but in relation toevolution these are only marginal and only technological changes
[2011/01/04 13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yesterday i heard they have found a woman who may be 157 years old
[2011/01/04 13:34] BALDUR Joubert: poor girl..lol
[2011/01/04 13:34] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): how can they tell she is that old?
[2011/01/04 13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• LOL ‚ô•
[2011/01/04 13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i say so too
[2011/01/04 13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are studying
[2011/01/04 13:35] herman Bergson: such an individual instance is irrelevant...nice for the News media...that is all
[2011/01/04 13:35] BALDUR Joubert: as for cultural evolution..just study the behaviour of our ancestors 30 000 years ago and today.. tribalwars.. religious wars.. power structures.. nothing new for mankind
[2011/01/04 13:35] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): looking at her teeth???..
[2011/01/04 13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• LOL ‚ô•
[2011/01/04 13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): beertje
[2011/01/04 13:36] herman Bergson: You are right to some extend Baldur...
[2011/01/04 13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): her family
[2011/01/04 13:36] herman Bergson: In fact you see all stages of social evolution in this world....
[2011/01/04 13:36] herman Bergson: from primitive tribal behavior to rational individualistic behavior
[2011/01/04 13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes from the jungles of south america to the thinking capitals of the work
[2011/01/04 13:37] BALDUR Joubert: glad you call the bush policies primitve tribalbehaviours:)
[2011/01/04 13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• LOL ‚ô•
[2011/01/04 13:37] herman Bergson: lol..ok..Baldur...
[2011/01/04 13:37] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): lol
[2011/01/04 13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[2011/01/04 13:37] Alexia Rodeyn: i will have to agree with Baldur on that , i feel that only the tools and technologies have changed
[2011/01/04 13:38] herman Bergson: I dont agree with that Alexia....
[2011/01/04 13:38] BALDUR Joubert: no.. there i disagree.. we a re a learning species..
[2011/01/04 13:38] herman Bergson: Our social behavior has changed too
[2011/01/04 13:38] BALDUR Joubert: cause we have a memory..
[2011/01/04 13:39] herman Bergson: not globally, but certainly insocieties which are science oriented
[2011/01/04 13:39] BALDUR Joubert: aren't we the result of what has been said and thought bevore us'
[2011/01/04 13:39] herman Bergson: Certainly Baldur....the better scientific insights the better we understand the world
[2011/01/04 13:40] BALDUR Joubert: memory. language and then writing are what we are made of.. brainwise:)
[2011/01/04 13:40] herman Bergson: Sure....what counts is what is in that memory and what is written down....
[2011/01/04 13:41] herman Bergson: and in that respect scientific insights shape a lot of our world perception
[2011/01/04 13:41] BALDUR Joubert: and what is transferred to new generations
[2011/01/04 13:41] herman Bergson: That has been shown by history Baldur...
[2011/01/04 13:41] BALDUR Joubert: scientific inside is of no value for someone who was taught that the world was created 5600 years ago
[2011/01/04 13:41] herman Bergson: The scientific revolution began in the 17th century....
[2011/01/04 13:42] herman Bergson: when religious explanations of relaity were abandoned
[2011/01/04 13:42] BALDUR Joubert: should we say questionned
[2011/01/04 13:43] herman Bergson: on the one hand now we have people that believe that the world will be a better place
[2011/01/04 13:43] herman Bergson: with more medical car, education, ecological production of food....
[2011/01/04 13:44] herman Bergson: and on the other hand we have people who believe the world will be a better place by blowing up themselves in a marketplace or in a church
[2011/01/04 13:44] BALDUR Joubert: smile.. the problems the philosophers never dared to touch are emotions.. love.. laughter.. and more
[2011/01/04 13:44] herman Bergson: Well...if it is about laughter....Aristotle already wrote about it...
[2011/01/04 13:45] BALDUR Joubert: we don't have the text.. just that he wrote about it or am i wrong
[2011/01/04 13:45] herman Bergson: To keep that secret the monestary in The Name of the `rose burned down ^_^
[2011/01/04 13:46] BALDUR Joubert: i think it was a interesting subject of the book-and film
[2011/01/04 13:46] herman Bergson: The Name of the Rose by Umberto Ecco....also a great movie staring Sean Connery!
[2011/01/04 13:46] BALDUR Joubert: church and love and laughter.. just a thing for the popes in the middle ages and even later..
[2011/01/04 13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): seems i read that
[2011/01/04 13:47] BALDUR Joubert: well..they didn't have a condom problem lol
[2011/01/04 13:47] herman Bergson: Well..let's look into the future....
[2011/01/04 13:48] herman Bergson: some people hope that there will be no church anymore....
[2011/01/04 13:48] herman Bergson: no monotheistic fanatism...
[2011/01/04 13:48] herman Bergson: but real insight in the human condition
[2011/01/04 13:48] BALDUR Joubert: empathy.. mirror neurons:)
[2011/01/04 13:49] herman Bergson: GREAT Baldur...!!!! The right words
[2011/01/04 13:49] herman Bergson: Empathy IS wired into our brain!!!!
[2011/01/04 13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes it is
[2011/01/04 13:49] BALDUR Joubert: i agree.. and not just ours
[2011/01/04 13:49] herman Bergson: OK…Next lecture will be about altruism....
[2011/01/04 13:50] herman Bergson: is it a product of education or is it a real part of the organism....
[2011/01/04 13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hmmmm
[2011/01/04 13:50] herman Bergson: Yes..fascinating question....
[2011/01/04 13:50] BALDUR Joubert: thank you herman.. sorry i was overpresent tonight.. just too much time over the holidays to think:)
[2011/01/04 13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ‚ô•
[2011/01/04 13:50] herman Bergson: smiles...
[2011/01/04 13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you thursday I hope i get home in time
[2011/01/04 13:51] BALDUR Joubert: snow gemma?
[2011/01/04 13:51] herman Bergson: thank you Baldur....You get your lecture next Thursday!
[2011/01/04 13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye „ã°
[2011/01/04 13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): all
[2011/01/04 13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ‚ô•
[2011/01/04 13:51] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma...I am moved by your loyalty to the class
[2011/01/04 13:51] herman Bergson: :-(.... and that remark she missed...
[2011/01/04 13:52] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): sorry that i didn't say much..i needed my dictionary
[2011/01/04 13:53] BALDUR Joubert: now you can talk beertje:)
[2011/01/04 13:53] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): lol..
[2011/01/04 13:53] herman Bergson: It is not primarily important what you say, Beertje....what is important is what you think...:-)
[2011/01/04 13:53] herman Bergson: But if you want to tell us what you think...go ahead
[2011/01/04 13:53] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): no..i have to think about that
[2011/01/04 13:54] herman Bergson: smiles..
[2011/01/04 13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your paricipation...
[2011/01/04 13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thanks herman: -) for, 2009, 2010 and 2011: -) it is good to think WITH you
[2011/01/04 13:54] Beertje (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[2011/01/04 13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all :-) see u!!
[2011/01/04 13:54] herman Bergson: See you next Thursday in a lecture on Altruism...dedicated to Baldur :-)
[2011/01/04 13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Bergie
[2011/01/04 13:55] Alexia Rodeyn: is the class at the same time on Thursday ?
[2011/01/04 13:55] BALDUR Joubert: thank you.. and i'll follow up with egoism lol
[2011/01/04 13:55] Alexia Rodeyn: lol
[2011/01/04 13:56] herman Bergson: Yes Alexia..
[2011/01/04 13:56] herman Bergson: every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM PST
[2011/01/04 13:56] Alexia Rodeyn: Baldur gave me the link to your blog
[2011/01/04 13:56] BALDUR Joubert: isn't he a nice guy:)
[2011/01/04 13:57] herman Bergson: wow...cool
[2011/01/04 13:57] Alexia Rodeyn: i have still very much to read about your previous topics
[2011/01/04 13:57] herman Bergson: yes...30 lectures :-)
[2011/01/04 13:57] BALDUR Joubert: i thought we were close to 300
[2011/01/04 13:57] Alexia Rodeyn: but that will be a nice dare for me as a person who calls her a tech nerd
[2011/01/04 13:57] Alexia Rodeyn: »ò)
[2011/01/04 13:58] herman Bergson: ok..:-)
[2011/01/04 13:58] herman Bergson: Give it a try Alexia
[2011/01/04 13:58] BALDUR Joubert: don;t dare her herman..she might lol
[2011/01/04 13:59] Alexia Rodeyn: i will
[2011/01/04 13:59] herman Bergson: She is welcome Baldur :-)
[2011/01/04 13:59] Alexia Rodeyn: was nice meeting you , see you on thursday then
[2011/01/04 13:59] Alexia Rodeyn: bye
[2011/01/04 13:59] BALDUR Joubert: yes..but when she is acquainted with the topics..its propably the moment i have to retire lol
[2011/01/04 14:00] herman Bergson: You are welcome Alexia
[2011/01/04 14:01] BALDUR Joubert: pity we have never enough time to discuss details..but -a compliment to you.. i might go back to university and take some history and philo classes:)
[2011/01/04 14:02] herman Bergson: thank you Baldur...
[2011/01/04 14:02] herman Bergson: You arent getting rusty are you....???!!!
[2011/01/04 14:02] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. i am.. that's why i thought of that..
[2011/01/04 14:03] BALDUR Joubert: ok.. got to go and talk to my friend.. see you thursday.

287: The Brain and Religion 2

Last Tuesday I ended my lecture with these words: "With the evolution of modern man there have emerged five characteristic behaviors, which you find in all cultures: language, the making of tools, music, art and religion.

Of all these behaviors we have found predecessors in the animal kingdom, except religion. Yet, mankind survived, so we only can conclude that religion must have had an evolutionary advantage for the homo sapiens."

Did religion help the species Homo sapiens to survive? To get to a clear answer we have to be more specific from an evolutionary point of view.

The brain is wired in such a way that it has the capacity to generate spiritual ideas and concepts. This means that we are willing to believe that there is more than just what we see.

With which spiritual ideas the individual brain comes up with is unpredictable, but we have to take another factor into account. The Homo sapiens is a social animal, so he lives in groups.

We all know about group dynamics, be it chicken, wolves or humans. There always is a dominating individual member or a small group of dominating members. It is obvious that the dominating group members dictate which ideas prevail.

When spiritual, supernatural ideas are institutionalized you get a religion, a set of ideas that is accepted by all members of the group or tribe and thence comes the evolutionary advantage.

In the first place religion keeps a group together. The Jews, for instance, have survived due to their religious beliefs in spite of the diaspora and holocaust.

For leaders religion is a perfect instrument. Like Seneca (ca. 54 BC – ca. 39 AD) said: " Simple minded people regard religion as true, wise people as false and rulers as useful"

And thence come the rules for the group: it is not allowed to marry someone who does not share your religion. Social control by threatening with all kinds of punishments from above.

You have to be recognizable as true believer. So you show this in your clothing, black clothes, a keppel, a burke. And of course you have to make as many children as possible. A common rule in many religions.

Religion brings comfort to people in hard times (even when they are caused by a merciless ruler). And when life is that bad, there always is a better afterlife waiting for the believer.

100.000 years ago homo sapiens already believed in an afterlife. This can be concluded from what was put in the graves of the dead: food, tools, jewelry.

These are all perfect ingredients to protect the group and kill the infidel, that is…..competing groups or tribes, who threaten your resources and survival. Killing in the name of your god is allowed then.

Even today we see these mechanisms at work. Not just in one religion: weird sects, which commit collective suicide, terrorism inspired by the Koran or the Bible, xenophobia, discrimination of certain groups in the collective… and so on.

Would the world be better off without religion? Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris would immediately say : YES! But is this true?

When you look at the Evolution chart on the wall to the left of me, you can see that homo sapiens exists in fact only for a short time compared to other species.

Our evolution has hardly begun. So the right question would be…What will be the role of religion (in a globalized world) in 100.000 years?

Spirituality is hard wired in the brain. There is proof of that even from prehistoric man. Institutionalizing individual spirituality is a next step in culture.

Some of these institutions are already decaying these days…. maybe a sign that a more scientific view on reality is more appealing and appropriate?


The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:19] herman Bergson: You have the floor :-)
[13:19] AristotleVon Doobie: brb
[13:19] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:20] BALDUR Joubert: where can i find scientific basis for your assumption that spirituality is hard wired in the brain
[13:20] herman Bergson: looks around
[13:20] herman Bergson: any questions or remarks?
[13:20] Simargl Talaj: Animals don't pray.
Humanity creates its gods.
So, faith's good for us?
[13:20] Simargl Talaj: Cats eat what they kill.
Only humans torture, gloat.
Torture's good for us?
[13:21] Simargl Talaj: Existence of traits
not proof they are adaptive
stains: didn't wash out.
[13:21] BALDUR Joubert: cat's torture too -in our sense..
[13:21] herman Bergson: those are non sequiturs Siargl...
[13:21] BALDUR Joubert: ever saw a cat play with a mouse?
[13:21] herman Bergson: No logic in that
[13:21] herman Bergson: Oh yes...
[13:22] herman Bergson: a cat can play with a mouse for an hour without killing it...
[13:22] herman Bergson: and afeterwords it even doesnt eat it
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: ▓▒░ ♪♫♩ ॐ ॐ ॐ ((-: QWARK :-)) ॐ ॐ ॐ ♪♫♩ ▓▒░
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: is ill so went to bed
[13:22] herman Bergson: awww...poor felllow...
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: aaaw
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: right that is true
[13:23] AristotleVon Doobie: honing its killing skils, and doent need them mostly today
[13:23] AristotleVon Doobie: the primal brain in action
[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: right ari...like wolves who will kill as many sheep as possible in a heard
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: some animals only kill when they need to eat
[13:24] Simargl Talaj: My dog hopes, pleads, thanks
me, my opposible thumbs.
Am I not his god?
[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: we are the same, only with rationality to curb the play killing, or ideally
[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: you're an alpha for your dog sim
[13:25] herman Bergson: No Simargl....dogs have no supernatural ideas...
[13:25] herman Bergson: you are just the dominant member of the group
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: we teach our children how to, still
[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: how to do what ari
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: like religion is taught from the cradle
[13:26] AristotleVon Doobie: to kill, to survive primally
[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: you do ari?
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle..that is the idea of my lecture todya....
[13:26] herman Bergson: and the former one..
[13:26] herman Bergson: Religion is a good tool to control the group...
[13:26] itsme Frederix: So you have a mission Herman?
[13:26] AristotleVon Doobie: I do not, but I have seen the results of the behavior up close....most just follow the path handed to them from the previous generation
[13:27] herman Bergson: on the other hand...the group loves to believe all in the same ideas
[13:27] Simargl Talaj: God, too tall to see
Mysterious can opener
faith: imagined alphas
[13:27] itsme Frederix: and its a nessecarity!
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: religion is like collective comfort food
[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: how did religion start?
[13:27] Beertje Beaumont: it's safe
[13:28] herman Bergson: Save me your mystic can openers Simargl
[13:28] herman Bergson: In a simple way Baldur...
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: we find safety in being surrounded by like kind
[13:28] herman Bergson: The brain searches for patterns, structures, order...
[13:28] itsme Frederix: you are all to sceptic (is it me that is saying this) religion also has an association with a deeper feeling for sense (supersense), its in us
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: well.. i'm thinking 100000 years ago when a group consisted of a larger family of 4-to 10 memebers
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Itsme...I dont deny that...
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: it is in us from somewhere, I cant aruge that
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: but where is the question for me
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hmm that is possible for sure
[13:29] herman Bergson: One half of our brain loves to come up with supernatural ideas to understand the world around us
[13:29] itsme Frederix: then lets be possitive about our selves and what is experience but stay critical to official who miss use the thing
[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: language was at the most very primitive
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...just look at the situation....
[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: questions of survival must have been predominant..
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes baldur...
[13:31] herman Bergson: you are in a situation you dont understand and you have to move fast...
[13:31] herman Bergson: The left hemisphere of the brain does that...is intuitive....
[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: i do?
[13:31] itsme Frederix: its is heuristic (it worked well several times, so lets do it again)
[13:32] herman Bergson: yes Itsme....
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: doing by learning .....
[13:32] herman Bergson: rational thinking and analysis is slow..takes time....
[13:32] itsme Frederix: procedural behaviour
[13:32] herman Bergson: not the tool to survive when in immediate danger
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: a 100000 years ago it would not only be slow..
[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: but limited
[13:33] herman Bergson: No Baldur..it was hardly used...then
[13:33] itsme Frederix: still limitted ;)
[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: lol..
[13:33] herman Bergson: tool making is an example of rational thinking...
[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: so what was the tool for survival..
[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: in immediate danger..
[13:34] herman Bergson: the brain Baldur...
[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: of course.. that goes for almost any animal
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: primal instinct are instantly available, rationally we temper those based on the situation
[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: may be before we think of rational we should think of reasoning?
[13:35] herman Bergson: The first thing we do is think intuitively...
[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: primal instincts are rational.. if the species survives..:)
[13:36] herman Bergson: rationality comes later
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: desire for an attractive, potential mate in the middle of a restaurant is tempered by empirical data we have gathered
[13:36] herman Bergson: that is also what you see in the development of mind
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: coward ari lol
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: but in many other instances also
[13:37] herman Bergson: what kind of restaurant was that Aristotle?
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: :))
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: :)¨
[13:37] herman Bergson: Was she on the menu?
[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: may be the empirical data you have is a slap in the face?
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: a family one, who dictate 'n'
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: no
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: lol
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: would dictate a 'no'
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, that is right BAlDUR
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:38] herman Bergson: Well I notice that nobody has really questions about what I put forward..
[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: as you see humans can share experiences:)
[13:38] Simargl Talaj: I promised silence
or haiku; useful thoughts, no --
alas, too many words.
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: my point of course is we control our instincts by rationality
[13:39] herman Bergson: And Simargl has her poetic moments here..^_^
[13:39] herman Bergson: ok
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle....
[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: so what do you think about religion sim..
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: or yield to them, in the same manor
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is the battle between the right and left hemisphere of the brain
[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: in prose ..:)
[13:40] herman Bergson: But from an evolutionary point of view, the intuitive thinking may have come first
[13:40] itsme Frederix: well Herman that a simplified drawing you made up
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: yes I agree Herman
[13:40] herman Bergson: yes Itsme..I love to keep it simple ^_^
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:41] itsme Frederix: me too, I stay with the appelpijnboomklier
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: the KISS theory
[13:41] herman Bergson: Descartes Itsme?
[13:41] herman Bergson: Dualism?
[13:41] itsme Frederix: Good guess, yes
[13:42] herman Bergson: Interesting
[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: descartes and kisses?
[13:42] herman Bergson: And it wasnt a guess :-)
[13:42] itsme Frederix: Baldur he shove himself (the barber did not)
[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: ok...
[13:42] itsme Frederix: shove ? shaved
[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: probably cut himself..
[13:43] herman Bergson: But Itsme..to get it straight....you hold that dualism is what reality is ?
[13:44] itsme Frederix: well we have only a small interval (80 years) to think about it and feel concerned, then its over and another has the burden
[13:44] herman Bergson: I mean the reality of body and mind?
[13:44] itsme Frederix: Herman, sure not
[13:44] herman Bergson: sorry...I misunderstood I guess
[13:44] itsme Frederix: just kidding and making it more simple, not left not right but just one piece of the body
[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: if only the body were one piece .....
[13:45] herman Bergson: But one thing is for sure....
[13:45] itsme Frederix: i go for TAO, it just goes
[13:45] herman Bergson: in relation to evolution...our personal existence is just the blink of an eye
[13:46] herman Bergson: while we have the feeling that we are IT, complete ..all human
[13:46] itsme Frederix: That right Herman, and sometimes that is a burden we all have to deal with
[13:47] herman Bergson: Just nice to know it only takes about 80 years :-)
[13:47] itsme Frederix: yes that helps
[13:47] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:47] herman Bergson: ok...my friends
[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: ok
[13:47] Simargl Talaj: Just to kiss Descarte
can be done without a word
More takes *two* paragraphs.
[13:47] itsme Frederix: a tiny tiny bit
[13:47] herman Bergson: next lecture will be on religious experiences....
[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: ah
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:48] itsme Frederix: More is writing about Utopia
[13:48] herman Bergson: not coming form above but created by magnetism...:-)
[13:48] itsme Frederix: just be
[13:48] herman Bergson: So Thank you all for you r participation
[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting
[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: omg.. magnetism? messmer?
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismisssed :-)
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you, Professor
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: interesting as usual ㋡
[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: yes very
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman!! &Class
[13:49] Simargl Talaj: Thank you. You do great preparation for our benefit. It is a great gift.
[13:49] herman Bergson: No Baldur...a real scientist
[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: see you Tuesday
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: oh........the body is a mass of tissue, manipulated by the brain as directed by the mind
[13:49] herman Bergson: no Aristotle....
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: trilogism?
[13:50] herman Bergson: that is the homunculus theory...lol
[13:50] itsme Frederix: or worse Ari, the other way around, just surviving DNA
[13:50] herman Bergson: do you ever learn...lol
[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: other way round ari--
[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:51] BALDUR Joubert: and do'nt forget brain is nothing more than a mass of tissue too:)

268: Supersense continued

So the questions we are going to try to answer are: Why do we believe in the supernatural and What is the source of this way of thinking about the world?

In my former lecture I introduced the human faculty of the supersense as a possible answer, as is introduced by Bruce Hood in his book "SuperSense: Why we believe in the Unbelievable" (2009).

Our main focus is the brain and the science behind our beliefs. We want to understand why we believe in the Unbelievable. We will not discuss the question now, whether these beliefs are TRUE of FALSE.

When we have found a plausible answer to our primary question, you yourself can evaluate and maybe better understand our supernatural beliefs.

Yet, the result of such an evaluation can be lean and thin. Beliefs are hard to get hold of. That is how beliefs work. They are hard to change by reasonable arguments. Where does that stubborn way of thinking come from?

We have plenty of examples for that: a person coming back from death, manna (bread) raining from the sky, water that is magically turned into wine, feeding a crowd of hundreds of people with five loaves and two fishes, a man walking on the water.

Because we are part of human culture we are easily inclined to believe that all our beliefs are coming from what others have told us. From childhood on we believe what others tell us, because we trust them.

But there is another explanation for why we believe in the Unbelievable and that is a natural, scientific interpretation, based on the design of our mind.

Design means a structured, organized way of interpreting the world based on the way our brain works.

It is absolutely true that our culture tells unbelievable stories to children, but I don't think that that is the only way how our beliefs come into being. For a long time you believed in Santa Claus; now you probably do not anymore. Something made you change your mind.

The frame of mind of a child brings the child to believe in the supernatural. So it will be very interesting to take a closer look at the development of thinking in the child.

If supersense is part of our natural way of understanding the world, then it will emerge in every child, which is born with this frame of mind.

Bruce says at this point that if so, then it will be almost impossible to ban all supernatural beliefs. Supersense will always be part of our mind.

It is interesting to note that recently there has emerged a strong movement against any religious beliefs. They are regarded as destructive for mankind. You find this point of view in books of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, for instance.


Bruce Hood is milder and even asks the question whether it really is necessary to spend great effort on banning all supernatural beliefs. As you may recall, the communist countries did everything in that respect.. Yet, e.g. Poland is one of the most catholic countries in Europe these days.

Maybe the human species even needs this supersense. How do we deal with death, for instance. In many ways: an afterlife, reincarnation, a spiritual merging with the world energy, heaven.

Another thing is that the human is a social animal and to participate in society we have to share conventions: things which we assign a common and special value to.

This can be a banknote, or an original painting of Rembrandt (you can copy it, but that IS a copy, not the real thing). It can be a special place or a church or a stone in Mekka.

If we didn't share these sacred values, the only sacred value which would be left would be ourselves as individual. This would turn society into a Hobbesian world, in which everybody only fights for his own benefits.


zzz
[13:24] herman Bergson: Now the floor is yours :-)
[13:24] Daruma Boa: and we have missed that instinct, called supernatural thinking
[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: the floor remains empty
[13:24] Abraxas Nagy: ah
[13:25] Daruma Boa: no
[13:25] Rodney Handrick accepted your inventory offer.
[13:25] herman Bergson: no Daruma…we havent...it is there in our brain..physically there..
[13:25] Daruma Boa: no we lost it
[13:25] itsme Frederix: intuition or instinct
[13:25] Daruma Boa: because of the society
[13:25] Daruma Boa: we always think about what others could think about us^^
[13:25] Daruma Boa: instinct
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes..I will get to all these point Daruma in next lectures...
[13:26] Daruma Boa: hey rod
[13:26] Daruma Boa: nearly in time^^
[13:26] herman Bergson: Welcome Rodney
[13:26] Rodney Handrick: hi Daruma
[13:26] Rodney Handrick: hi herman
[13:26] itsme Frederix: I like instinct it gives me a more materialized idea about intuition (kind of source)
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: hi Rodney
[13:26] Daruma Boa: ok
[13:26] Rodney Handrick: hi bejiita
[13:26] Alarice Beaumont: hey Rodney
[13:26] Rodney Handrick: hi alarice
[13:26] Daruma Boa: u need always something to keep in your hands itsme?
[13:27] herman Bergson: What you call instinct Itsme is there...in our brain...
[13:27] Daruma Boa: something that can u grab?
[13:27] itsme Frederix: Danuma YEP, what else is there
[13:27] Daruma Boa: your mind
[13:27] Alarice Beaumont: :-)
[13:27] itsme Frederix: of course I've some hands in my brain
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: The only sacred value which would be left would be ourselves as individual.....is that the first step to those daydreamers who formulate this superlatives of comfort? heaven, proper behavior etc in the indoctrination of their ideology and then the control of the group formed from their persuasion?
[13:27] Daruma Boa: these are only the tools to eat
[13:27] Daruma Boa: drive cars
[13:27] Daruma Boa: kiss e.g.
[13:28] Daruma Boa: use the keyboards^^
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: power is at the root of all these supernatural things
[13:28] Daruma Boa: which power?
[13:28] herman Bergson: from an evolutionary point of view Aristotle may be right...
[13:28] herman Bergson: survival...
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: the poser of those who formulate the comfort of the supernatural
[13:29] herman Bergson: that is the power
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting
[13:29] itsme Frederix: die Wille (Schopenhauer)
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: teh desire to have power and its benefits
[13:29] Daruma Boa: yes thats your mind, your thought your wishes
[13:29] herman Bergson: Good reference, Itsme...
[13:29] itsme Frederix: blind power
[13:29] Daruma Boa: treu der wille^^
[13:29] herman Bergson: reference
[13:29] Daruma Boa: true
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: aah
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:29] itsme Frederix: oke sorry to I made it female
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: perhaps it all starts innocently
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well..when you refer to Schopenhauer...
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: a loved ones dies.....trying to understand
[13:30] herman Bergson: He hadnt the slightest idea about evolution...
[13:30] Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: the concept of heaven is comforting
[13:30] itsme Frederix: But he lived in that time Herman
[13:31] herman Bergson: but he had an intuition about the driving power...he called it the Will...
[13:31] itsme Frederix: But let's follow Ari, I've lost him?!
[13:31] herman Bergson: Darwin called it the survival of the fittest (the best adapted to the environment)
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: anyway, the concept is shared with others and then the movement begins
[13:31] herman Bergson: There is a parallel in my opinion
[13:32] itsme Frederix: sure but what thread do we expand in this discussion Schopenhauer/evolution or ...
[13:32] Daruma Boa: sharing to move is important
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: like all groups, clicks form and someone has to be in charge
[13:32] herman Bergson: the main focus is the reality of the supersense...
[13:32] Daruma Boa: well its not important who said what
[13:33] Daruma Boa: its importnat what do u think?
[13:33] herman Bergson: the willingness of the human to believe the unbelievable
[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: then you are told if you do not behave in a certain way , you will be denied heaven
[13:33] Daruma Boa: Schopenhauer is dead^^
[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: worse yet, if you further misbehave you will go to hell
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes and I am not....
[13:33] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗
[13:33] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗
[13:33] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝
[13:33] Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:34] herman Bergson: WAIT A MINUTE....
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: lucky us
[13:34] Daruma Boa: highway to hell
[13:34] herman Bergson: HOLD ON....
[13:34] Alarice Beaumont: lol
[13:34] Abraxas Nagy: acdc
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: my point is it is all conjured up for the purpose of controlling others
[13:34] itsme Frederix: I think, its my opinion that Bruce has a point. He comes with some examples/proves that a) supersense is there and b) it could be wired in the brain and c) it is an effective 9in some cases) way of dealing with ... well life
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: that i use often to scare my neighbors
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:34] herman Bergson: What we are talking about is the willingness of the human to believe the unbelievable...
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, and the desire for comfort and pleasure is the motivating force to belive
[13:35] Daruma Boa: sometime ari yes
[13:35] Daruma Boa: but that are the ppl, who dont understand the supernatural
[13:35] Abraxas Nagy: all our senses are wired into the brain
[13:36] herman Bergson: Aristotle...(and others)..first ..there are debating rules on the board behind me ^_^
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: once the adults take hold of the idea, the children are indoctrinated
[13:36] herman Bergson: and second..Aristotle what is your point?:-)
[13:36] Abraxas Nagy: it builds a view of reality based on it
[13:36] herman Bergson: ok ok...
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: the belief of these supernatural events, and their source
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes..as I already said...
[13:37] herman Bergson: for that we first have to study the development of thinking....
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: yes
[13:37] Abraxas Nagy: exactly
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: that is what I suggested
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: where the thought begins
[13:37] herman Bergson: and I can tell you....you all are still full of childlike ways of thinking...
[13:37] Alarice Beaumont: experience
[13:37] itsme Frederix: Herman thats ad omium
[13:37] Abraxas Nagy: i bet we are
[13:38] herman Bergson: lol..no Itsme that is a matter of fact...
[13:38] Daruma Boa: why give an example
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, you can not competely remove that nurturing
[13:38] Alarice Beaumont: exemplified behavior
[13:38] herman Bergson: any form of superstion is childlike thinking..
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: it is
[13:38] herman Bergson: and dont you have your personal rituals????
[13:38] Daruma Boa: ;-) why u think that?
[13:38] itsme Frederix: Herman even worse, how can we deny facts. But please prove!
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: and is encouraged by those who can benefit from it I believe
[13:38] Daruma Boa: only cos u never made such experiences?
[13:39] herman Bergson: stop that Aristotle..lol
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: :)
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: yes sir
[13:39] herman Bergson: no ..it is true...
[13:39] Daruma Boa: what is true in live?
[13:39] herman Bergson: who doesnt have his lucky coin or rabbitfoot...
[13:39] Daruma Boa: there are always 2 sides of the story
[13:40] herman Bergson: or his favorite chair....when I sit there I can do things better...
[13:40] herman Bergson: we are stuffed with tons of such beliefs...
[13:40] Alarice Beaumont: hmm
[13:40] Alarice Beaumont: you think scientists also believe in this? have rabbit foots and that stuff?
[13:41] herman Bergson: Ever walked on the pavement and had the feeling that you had to skip two tiles every step..
[13:41] herman Bergson: No Alarice...we will get to that...that is exactly the point...
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, I was told this as a child...step on a crack break you mothers back
[13:41] herman Bergson: our believeds against how we look at science..
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: so much is intertwined
[13:42] Daruma Boa: science... that are only stuoied humans as we are
[13:42] Daruma Boa: stupied
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:42] Daruma Boa: with their own view 2 see the world
[13:42] herman Bergson: Right Aristotle...and nice of you , that you obeyed (I hope)
[13:42] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗
[13:42] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗
[13:42] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝
[13:42] Daruma Boa: there is no truth or so
[13:42] Daruma Boa: i think i learned that here^^#
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: :)
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:43] Abraxas Nagy: we all have our own truth
[13:43] herman Bergson: I dont agree Daruma...
[13:43] Daruma Boa: mh
[13:43] herman Bergson: no Abraxas we dont
[13:43] Abraxas Nagy: ah
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: if truth only cold be had
[13:43] Daruma Boa: i have 5 truths^^
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: could
[13:43] herman Bergson: if that were true..you hav etons of other methods to send a rocket to the moon...
[13:44] herman Bergson: dont confuce truth with commandments Daruma ^_^..you missed 5 then :-)
[13:44] Alarice Beaumont: ^^
[13:44] Abraxas Nagy: ah but each interprets the world in his own unique wayt
[13:44] Daruma Boa: 42?
[13:44] Daruma Boa: ^^
[13:44] herman Bergson: No Abraxas I dont agree...
[13:45] itsme Frederix: not 42, 20 is the figure these times
[13:45] Daruma Boa: ;-)
[13:45] itsme Frederix: (rubic's cube)
[13:45] Alarice Beaumont: lool
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:45] herman Bergson: The reality around us isnt a matter of subjective interpretation....a bullit is a bullit..beng...hit ..dead
[13:45] Daruma Boa: and in another world
[13:46] Daruma Boa: or dimension perhaps
[13:46] Daruma Boa: who knows?
[13:46] itsme Frederix: supersense
[13:46] Daruma Boa: we not
[13:46] Daruma Boa: or forgot it
[13:46] herman Bergson: there we go….Daruma's supernatural thinking...
[13:46] Daruma Boa: yes i know
[13:46] Daruma Boa: its true
[13:46] Daruma Boa: we n
[13:46] Abraxas Nagy: ah u mean cause and effect
[13:46] Daruma Boa: know nothing
[13:46] Alarice Beaumont: some people just do have a "fine antenna"
[13:46] Abraxas Nagy: causality
[13:46] herman Bergson: the essential characteristic of supernatural thinking is that it defies laws of nature
[13:46] Daruma Boa: so we cant talk really about it
[13:47] itsme Frederix: nothing wrong with it - you can't help (everyone is biased)
[13:47] Daruma Boa: hi jozen
[13:47] herman Bergson: Ther eyou go Alarice...supernatural thinking too
[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:47] Jozen Ocello: hi Daruma, Hi everyone, so sorry I'm late
[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: since it defies the laws of nature, why do you suppose it is thought?
[13:48] itsme Frederix: causality is one of those supersense/natural ideas
[13:48] herman Bergson: Here you see..we are loaded with supernatual thinking....
[13:48] herman Bergson: We'll discuss that later Itsme..if you dont mind
[13:48] itsme Frederix: well it came up prof
[13:48] Daruma Boa: next week^
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aa yes probably, even if i mostly believe in pure science i bet i have a load of these things myself
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: its interesting for sure
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:49] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....if it were only your favorite pen....
[13:49] Daruma Boa: we dont have to put thinking into boxes (schubläden);-)
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:49] Daruma Boa: just think and feel
[13:49] herman Bergson: no Daruma...we have to get it out of the boxes!
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: we start collecting baggage from birth, a great deal of it empty
[13:49] itsme Frederix: well some times its better to leave it in the box (pandora)
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: one thing no one takes its my chair at work at the coffee table
[13:49] Daruma Boa: i think, if we would feel more, than to think
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:50] Daruma Boa: ^^^
[13:50] Daruma Boa: a lot would be better
[13:50] herman Bergson: That might be quite true Aristotle...
[13:50] herman Bergson: and empty here means Supernatural
[13:50] Daruma Boa: yes herman let the thinking of the boxes free^^
[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: :)
[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: it may behoove us to cast a lot of it off
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well....hearing this discussion.....great...
[13:51] herman Bergson: our next lectures will be wuite interesting then for you....^_^
[13:51] Alarice Beaumont: so.. who of you has a lucky token or something like this?
[13:52] herman Bergson: So..thank you all for you participation..it was inspiring..
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: really
[13:52] Abraxas Nagy: it sure was
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you Herman :)
[13:52] herman Bergson: class dismissed ^_^
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: look forward to next one
[13:52] Rodney Handrick: yes, interesting
[13:52] Daruma Boa: it was a pleasure
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:52] Alarice Beaumont: great subject to talk about :-)
[13:52] herman Bergson: my pleasure too Daruma..^_^
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: herman
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:52] Rodney Handrick: thanks Herman
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: great stuff
[13:53] Daruma Boa: mh^^
[13:53] Jozen Ocello: so sorry i missed this... will read up on it on the blog
[13:53] herman Bergson: ok Jozen....
[13:53] Jozen Ocello: thanks professor :)
[13:53] herman Bergson: Go and spank yourself first ^_^
[13:53] Jozen Ocello: hehe
[13:53] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: lol

266: The Mystery of the Brain introduced

Welcome all. It is a great joy to see you all back again.I hope your vacation was as good as mine.

Here in front of me on my desk in RL I have a book. Its title is "A materialist Theory of Mind" (1968) by D.M. Armstronng. I bought is September 24 in 1976 and it cost me the fortune of almost US$20. And that was a fortune for a student in those days.

The flap text begins thus: " Professor Armstrong defends the view, currently much discussed by analytical philosophers, that mental states are purely physical states of the brain."

What already was on my bookshelves since July 1973 was "The 'Mental and the 'Physical' " (1958) by Herbert Feigl. I think it was my main inspiration philosophically.

This was basic reading for the subject of my thesis for graduation then in 1976. And here I am again with the same thesis. (….smiles….) Did I never get further in all these years. Didn't I get wiser? We'll see.

Much has changed since 1976, especially regarding our knowledge of the brain. The mind is no longer only a philosophical topic. Other sciences have entered the arena.

I don't mean just psychology, but especially neurobiology and neuroscience. Now we have men like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Dan Dennet. They have changed the philosophical scenery considerably.

For me this is going to be a special project. It is not just an academic presentation of a subject with many different points of view possible. It will be a personal stand. I will stand for a materialist theory of mind.

This means that the series of lectures I have scheduled will be a kind of argumentation to make my point. However, it is not my intention that at the end of the semester you all have to say: yes you are right.

The lectures and the research for them will be more of a test, a searching for the answer whether the materialist view is tenable or not, to clarify the arguments in favor and against this view.

To find out what happens, when you take a materialist interpretation of the mind as the most plausible one, which philosophical questions you then still have to face.

But my starting point will be the assumption that a materialist theory of the mind is our best choice to understand ourselves as conscious beings.

The subject with which I will begin this project is the concept of "Supersense" as explained by Bruce M. Hood in his book "Supersense: Why do we believe in the unbelievable" (2009)

We thus, to begin with, deal with the phenomenon of the supernatural in our existence and try to understand it. We'll investigate the balance between rationality and our irrational ideas.

The next stage will be a journey through the latest developments in neurosciences. I even allow begging the question by spending time on discussing the biological roots of our emotions.

After this materialist introduction we'll begin with investigating the history of the philosophy of mind. What questions and answers have been put forward regarding consciousness, the mind, the Self, personal identity since the early days of philosophy.

I guess our final station will become the question, whether this materialist starting point has helped us to find satisfactory answers to our philosophical questions or not.

This is not going to be an easy project. That I can promise you. Not easy for you and certainly not easy for me, but I hope that is will achieve its main goal: that it will be entertaining and especially educational for all of us.

Thank you.


The Discussion

[13:22] Adriana Jinn: whaooo
[13:22] AristotleVon Doobie: I fully suspect this will be one helluva good time. :)
[13:22] Adriana Jinn: that is a program
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes I hope I wont let you down ...
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: and do you have any references for us to read on the web???
[13:23] Repose Lionheart: a great adventure, this
[13:23] herman Bergson: Well ..for a start find Bruce Hood...
[13:23] AristotleVon Doobie: you have my mind clicking already, Herman
[13:23] herman Bergson: There is a lot of him, also on youtube...
[13:23] herman Bergson: Sounds good Aristotle ^_^
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: ok
[13:24] herman Bergson: You also can start looking around for neurobiology or neurosciences...
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMgaQ-lCkio
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: ok
[13:24] herman Bergson: English Wikipedia is ok for a start
[13:25] herman Bergson: It is gonna be a lot of work ^_^
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: i guess
[13:25] herman Bergson: That is for sure
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: as usual
[13:26] herman Bergson: It seems that nobody has any questions about my chosen starting point?!
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: the origin of our selves have occupied a lot of my thinking
[13:27] Adriana Jinn: well very interesting but vast
[13:27] herman Bergson: Well...you might find something here then Aristotle
[13:27] Adriana Jinn: wide subject
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: if the brain is the seat of consciouness, where do you think its root resides in the physical brain?
[13:28] herman Bergson: The brain generates consciousness
[13:28] herman Bergson: no brain no consciousness :-)
[13:29] herman Bergson: That is why I speak of the mystery of the brain.....
[13:29] Jozen Ocello: and perhaps also generate subconsciousness?
[13:29] herman Bergson: and not the mystery of the mind or consciousness
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: but could it be similar to 'the computer in the hands of the human'?
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: without the computer no online
[13:30] herman Bergson: The computer is the human, Aristotle
[13:30] herman Bergson: The subconscious is a whole different story...
[13:31] herman Bergson: it is a theoretical construct invented by the psychoanalytical school
[13:31] Repose Lionheart: yes, agree
[13:31] herman Bergson: it is a concept of a higher theoretical level than I want to start from
[13:32] Jozen Ocello: i see
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: smiling, it is my suggestion that the mind needs the machine (brain) to communicate and direct the body only
[13:32] herman Bergson: the subconscious presupposes an extensive theory about what the mind is..
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: this will be a long discussion every week i think
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well Aristotle...this going to be a fight....^_^
[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: the cart and the horse, which is in front? :)
[13:33] herman Bergson: The debate about dualism and monism....
[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, I am excited :)
[13:33] herman Bergson: You sound dualistic in your statements :-)
[13:33] Jozen Ocello: this makes the class more interesting, I suppose :)
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:33] Adriana Jinn: yes exciting
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: unless we fall of track!
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: indeed, maybe even quadralistic LOL
[13:34] herman Bergson: You may give a lecture on that Aristotle ^_^
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: I look forward to attaining more data
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL, I may scare folks away
[13:36] herman Bergson: Well..the main development in philosophy of mind is, I think, that the materialist point of view is discussed more openly now and that more sciences are involved in that debate...
[13:36] herman Bergson: A big change...
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: I think so, but I worry about sciences becoming religious in their posture
[13:37] itsme Frederix: skeptic magazine vol.15 2009 .. has an artivcle about Bruce
[13:37] herman Bergson: We will get to that debate Aristotle....
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: :)
[13:37] herman Bergson: It is interesting to see how we think about science....
[13:38] herman Bergson: especially related to our supersense
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: yes
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: it is hard to keep the subjective at bay
[13:38] herman Bergson: Is that article online Itsme?
[[13:39] herman Bergson: Phew....the kick off.....
[13:39] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:39] Gemma Cleanslate: ok
[13:40] herman Bergson: I will do my utmost to make this project work for you ( and me)
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: :) a bright step forward
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: very nice
[13:40] herman Bergson: So....thank you al for your attention and get ready for next Tuesday :-)
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: Tuesday we begin!!
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: I suspect very strongly you will not disappoint, Professor
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: good to be back
[13:41] Adriana Jinn: looking forward to it
[13:41] Jozen Ocello: ah is it on Tuesday from next week onwards?
[13:41] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: and see all the old students and the new ones
[13:41] Adriana Jinn: thank you professor
[13:41] Jozen Ocello: thanks Professor :)
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you, Prof
[13:41] Jozen Ocello: see you all next Tuesday
[13:41] Josiane Llewellyn: Thanks Professor
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:41] SonolaLuna Greymoon: :) danke professor
[13:41] herman Bergson: every Tuesday and Thursday at 1 PM SL time, Jozen
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:41] Jozen Ocello: ah i see
[13:41] Jozen Ocello: thanks :)
[13:41] herman Bergson: Thank you all...:-)
[13:41] Adriana Jinn: bye bye all and thanks again
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: ye Adriana
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: bye
[13:42] itsme Frederix: I'm already reading - see you nex week!
[13:42] Beertje Beaumont: bye Herman
[13:42] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: ok Itsme
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: good bye folks, and thanks again Herman
[13:43] Repose Lionheart: bye
[13:43] Jozen Ocello: bye everyone
[13:43] herman Bergson: my pleasure Aristotle ^_^
[13:43] Sartre Placebo: thx herman and bye everyone
[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all:-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: bye Bergie