379: Consciousness and Free Will

The brain is a hot issue in the media like my Saturday newspaper proved again. A page long article with the headline: "spontaneous" decisions are over.

We have an intuitive belief that we have a free will. Some might argue….well, to some extend yes. It is almost the same intuitive belief that we have a mind and a body in a dualistic sense.

However, when asked a philosopher, we get another story. This dualism of mind and body is an idea only uphold by just a few anymore.

That's ok, as long as nobody starts denying that we have a mind. Let philosophers debate ontological questions here.

But our free will. That is another cup of tea.That free will is part of our identity. We shaped our personality by our free choices. Because of our free will we are morally responsible.

And here is a journalist who gets 64 electrodes attached to his skull looking at a computer screen, on which something is moving.

He gets the instruction to stop that movement by a mouse click, whenever he likes. Just spontaneous, unplanned.

What happens? Seconds before he presses the mouse button "spontaneously" there is already activity in the premotoric cortex.

The brain seems to be ahead of my spontaneous decision to press the button. It already made the decision for me?

the belief in a free will has serious consequences as has the opposite: the belief that they decide for you, that circumstances determine your present state and so on.

A research team of the university of Gent, Belgium, convinced one half of the group of test persons, that free will is an illusion

They presented them with the words of Nobel prizewinner Francis Crick:" Your feeling of personal identity and free will is nothing more than the behavior of a large group of braincells and molecules therein."

Whether Crick is right or not, in the heads of the test persons this text had a remarkable effect on the brain activity.

The brain activity in a free choice experiment was considerably less than in heads of those who hadn't read Crick's text and unconcerned believe in their free will.

Especially the unconscious process in the brain that precedes the spontaneous choice activity was 25% less in this group.

The belief or disbelief in a free will affects us, influences how we perform and act, like researchers from the University of MInnesota and University of California discovered.

Test persons had to solve 20 math problems. They could cheat, but were explicitly asked not to do so.
One half of the group was confronted with the text of Francis Crick.

The result was that in that group 60% more cheated than in the group who hadn't read the words of Francis Crick.

This defines our philosophical problem clearly: Is free will an illusion? What is the place of free will in our lives if all our actions are the result of some other cause?

Do our desires and unconscious beliefs make us less free? How do human beings assert their autonomy in a world governed by chance, cause and necessity?

You are free to show up next Thursday to hear how this story continues.


The Discussion

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yay, very interesting
[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:24] Bibbe Oh: thank you!
[13:24] Jaelle Faerye: what a cliffhanger, Herman, LOL
[13:24] Mick Nerido: Thanks professor
[13:24] herman Bergson: if you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours
[13:24] Farv Hallison: Thank you herman
[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: thank you, it was brilliant again
[13:24] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting theory.
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Im interested in that time-shift thing
[13:25] Mistyowl Warrhol: Do we have the free will to allow outside influence to effect how thinking?
[13:25] herman Bergson: yes Merlin that is a fascinating phenomenon.
[13:25] Mick Nerido: Have to go see u thursday
[13:25] herman Bergson: Ok Mick
[13:25] Farv Hallison: bye Mik
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: tc mick
[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Mick
[13:26] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC Mick :-)
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sometimes I think I had predicted something, but then wonder if my memory was false and came after the event
[13:26] herman Bergson: The general idea is that before we are conscious of our desicion the brain is already at work
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes
[13:26] herman Bergson: It came definitely after the event Merlin....
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes :)
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Do other people experience this?
[13:27] herman Bergson: the idea is that the brain makes up things....
[13:27] herman Bergson: But I have a problem with this way of thinking...
[13:28] herman Bergson: on the one hand there is the brain....
[13:28] herman Bergson: on the other hand there is consciousness
[13:28] Sybyle Perdide: but.. however you define free will.. the decision, the free will did, must come from somewhere
[13:28] herman Bergson: My point of view is that indeed the brain generates consciousness as a biological process
[13:28] Farv Hallison: I say your mind is different than consciousness....your mind made the desicion any it was displayed later on your Cartesean stage.
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Farv...that is a little bit what I fear...
[13:29] Mistyowl Warrhol: Some people are more influenced by outside events. Some are not. What about the 40% that did not cheat?
[13:29] herman Bergson: the idea that consciousness is the audience of the brain
[13:30] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): how much time is there between the brain and action?
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Richard Dawkins says clearly that he thinks consciousness evolved
[13:30] herman Bergson: half a second Beertje....in certain tests
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sorry, thats obvious
[13:30] herman Bergson: But Misty you got a point....
[13:30] Hokon Cazalet: true, if consciousness is a product of evolution [which it is], then it served some survivial value, somewhere somehow
[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes thats it
[13:31] herman Bergson: research shows that when you tell people there is no free will, they become less social and moral
[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh they DO?
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes Merlin...…
[13:31] herman Bergson: therefore I have great difficulty with this brian observations and how it is related to free will
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): they let go of their own moral?
[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: If ppl have been conditioned to obey what they hear, they lose free will. Ppl who are "free thinkers" will still rely on free will.
[13:32] Jaelle Faerye: that's an interesting thing
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....they feel less responseble for their actions...
[13:32] Jaelle Faerye: that moral thing
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I suppose Misty raises a broader issue there
[13:32] Jaelle Faerye: i read somewhere
[13:33] Farv Hallison: what does it mean to rely on free will?
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Degrees of free will
[13:33] Jaelle Faerye: that they had an "experiment" going on
[13:33] Jaelle Faerye: with people
[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: doesn't it depend of intelligence and education?
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: If any event is less obvious, we are more likely to let it influence us..
[13:33] herman Bergson: To rely on free will means that you have the feeling, Farv, that you make the decisions, you plot the course
[13:33] Jaelle Faerye: volunteers who were supposed to ask questions and "punish" with a power surge if the answer was wrong
[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: Trying to think of the word I am looking for.. duh
[13:34] Sybyle Perdide: but what is me?
[13:34] herman Bergson: The Miller experiment Jaelle....test on authority...
[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: and
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: letting go of the free will
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: since it was "required"
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes some obeyed to the extreme
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: people abdicated their own free will
[13:35] herman Bergson: but I think that that is another story....
[13:35] Mistyowl Warrhol: There are some, who will remain anon, who rebel when told something must be a certain way :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: it was not about free will this research but on the power of authority
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: uh huh
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: but
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: accepting authority without questioning?
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: isn't that somehow a negation of one's free will?
[13:36] Mistyowl Warrhol: Exactly
[13:36] herman Bergson: no...
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: why?
[13:36] herman Bergson: it is the choice to leave the responsability to th eperson in charge
[13:37] Jaelle Faerye: uh huh
[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: yep
[13:37] Sybyle Perdide: noo
[13:37] Jaelle Faerye: i never went to army
[13:37] Sybyle Perdide: not only#
[13:37] herman Bergson: well yes..it is army style...:-)
[13:37] herman Bergson: never question your superior!
[13:37] Jaelle Faerye: yup
[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: and with some religions
[13:38] herman Bergson: oh yes Misty...
[13:38] herman Bergson: never question Mohammed
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ooh careful!
[13:38] herman Bergson: grins...
[13:38] herman Bergson: yeah Merlin..
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: LOL but that is not about true religion, but ppl who use religion for power and that is a whole new issue.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...I think you will be surprised when we really dig into th efree will issue philosophically...
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I look forward to it
[13:40] Jaelle Faerye: me too
[13:40] Mistyowl Warrhol: There will always be ppl who believe only they are right and want to take free will away.
[13:40] herman Bergson: To be honest Merlin..me too....it is amazing in fact....
[13:41] herman Bergson: Then...may I thank you all again for your participation....
[13:41] Jaelle Faerye: Thank YOU, Herman
[13:41] Sybyle Perdide: merci Herman
[13:41] herman Bergson: unless you still have a question or remark left
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, thank YOU
[13:41] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you professor
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: thanks to YOU Herman
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: Nice discussion.. much to think about. ty :-)
[13:41] Bibbe Oh: Food for thought!
[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.. ^_^
[13:42] Hokon Cazalet: =)
[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): He he
[13:43] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Goodnight everybody
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: nini Beertje
[13:43] herman Bergson: I am sorry Lizzy about my report on what I saw
[13:43] Farv Hallison: goodnight beer
[13:43] Jaelle Faerye: Night Beerje

355: The Identity Theory, a first evaluation

The Identity theory is about the relation between brain states and mental states. Before we begin to address the question,"What are mental states?", it will be useful to have before us a list of the most significant features of mental states.

Such a list will help us assess theories of mental states by determining the extent to which a theory explains the existence of these features.

ln general, a theory of mental states which makes sense of these features is to be preferred to a theory which does not. Here's a possible list of general features of mental states.

1. Some mental states are caused by states of the world.
2. Some mental states cause actions.
3. Some mental states cause other mental states.

4. Some mental states are conscious.
5. Some mental states are about things in the world.
6. Some kinds of mental states are systematically correlated with certain kinds of brain states.

I guess you can fill in for yourself easily how these abstract descriptions apply to what goes on in our mind, whereas point 6 is the result of contemporary neuroscience.

How well does the Identity Theory explain these six features of mental states. Let's have a closer look.

"1. Some mental states are caused by states of the world."
I see a car (mental state) and there is a car approaching me.

If, as the identity theory claims, mental states are brain states, then the first feature amounts to the claim that some brain states are caused by states of the world.

Equally with respect to "2. Some mental states cause actions." we have discussed a overwhelming amount of neuro-scientific data and examples in previous lectures, which confirm that this is the case.

"3. Some mental states cause other mental states."
When I have the belief that it is Thursday today, and that on Thursday I always lecture, then I have good reason to believe that this is a lecture day today for me.

With "good reason" I mean, that the relations between my mental states are often characterized by rationality.

Here we run into a serious question: how can an account of the rationality of thought be squared with the claim that mental states are brain states?

"4. Some mental states are conscious." This is going to be the toughest nut to crack. How do consciousness and certain brain states relate to each other?

Like claim nr. 3 this feature of mental states will get considerable attention in next lectures.

"5. Some mental states are about things in the world."
Mental states represent the world as being in a certain way. My thoughts are always thoughts about something and often about things in the world.

That some brain state occurs in the visual cortex, when we look at a picture for instance, is common knowledge, but here it is about the content of a mental state. Is there a picture too? We'll pay attention to this issue in future lectures. Gonna be a difficult chapter.

"6. Some kinds of mental states are systematically correlated with certain kinds of brain states.
"
According to the identity theory, mental states literally are brain states.
Consequently, the identity theory smoothly explains the systematic correlation of mental states with brain states.

Whereas Dualism already crashed on explaining feature one and two of mental states, the identity appears to do a better job.

But yet we are still left with a number of questions. We still have a long way to go to get a full understanding of a theory of mind.

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...feel free....
[13:22] Farv Hallison: I only recently realized that the mind is different from consciousness.
[[13:22] Farv Hallison: I used to think they are the same.
[13:22] Farv Hallison: I read Dennett's book thinking they are the same.
[13:22] herman Bergson: That is a matter of conceptual analysis Farv...
[13:23] herman Bergson: Just from scratch I would say...
[13:23] Qwark Allen: after this last lectures i think , mind, conscious and brain are the same thing
[13:23] herman Bergson: you have two stages of consciousness....
[13:23] herman Bergson: eventually yes Qwark...
[13:24] herman Bergson: But you can make a difference between awareness and consciousness....
[13:24] Qwark Allen: only brain states
[13:24] herman Bergson: when you drive your car you perform all kinds of actions of which you are not conscious of, but yet aware...shifting gear, breaking etc...
[13:25] herman Bergson: while you are conscious of the surrounding traffic....
[13:25] Qwark Allen: the brain as the focus thing
[13:25] Qwark Allen: we are focus in what we are doing
[13:25] herman Bergson: those two, awareness and consciousness, I would call the mind
[13:26] Qwark Allen: still a brain state
[13:26] Qwark Allen: i'm aware of priorities
[13:26] herman Bergson: and yes...just brain states
[13:26] Farv Hallison: I am thinking of those experiments where the subject is consciously aware only a half second after a descion has been made.
[13:26] herman Bergson: the Libett story, Farv....yes....
[13:27] herman Bergson: I still don' know what to think about it...
[13:27] herman Bergson: the conclusion is often that it proofs that th ebrain decides and we only have the illusion that we consciously decide, have free will in that
[13:28] herman Bergson: I am still working on that chapter
[13:28] Qwark Allen: i was thinking the same…. the brain can be manipulated
[13:28] Farv Hallison: I interpret it to mean that consciousness is different than the brain.
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Qwark....for instance...memories can be provoked by electro-stimulation of certain brain areas
[13:29] Qwark Allen: herman will go to free will again soon ^^
[13:29] Qwark Allen: some past lectures were about free will , and how we can manipulate brain states to a purpose
[13:29] herman Bergson: that is a kind of dualistic interpretation , I would say Farv
[[13:30] Qwark Allen: yet, was a brain state tha
[13:31] Farv Hallison: I call it triality because I think the mind makes the decisions and it is different than the brain.
[13:31] Qwark Allen: eheheh
[13:31] Qwark Allen: funny
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well look at the situation more closely....
[13:32] herman Bergson: there is the "I" that decides to raise my hand....
[13:32] herman Bergson: I even don't know what that I is but I can say here I am...
[13:33] herman Bergson: then in the brain the motoric parts are faster in action than the other part that makes me say "I raised my hand"
[13:33] herman Bergson: the famous half second...
[13:33] herman Bergson: So what is observed is brain activity in two different areas only with a temporal difference
[13:34] herman Bergson: and fro that they conclude that the brain is faster than the conscious experience of raising my arm....
[13:34] Qwark Allen: the same temporal difference explains the " deja vu"
[13:34] herman Bergson: to me it is bogus
[13:34] herman Bergson: the brain is a unity..thus is the mind....
[13:35] herman Bergson: For instance....
[13:35] herman Bergson: there is no single spot in the brain that can be pointed out as THE central processor, so to speak
[13:36] herman Bergson: Francis Crick suggested that the unity of the brain was created by brain areas working together at the same 40Mhz or somethin glike that
[13:37] herman Bergson: So free will is gonna be a nice subject
[13:37] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:37] herman Bergson: and the unity of the person too :-)
[13:37] Farv Hallison: more like 40 Hertz
[13:37] herman Bergson: You certainly will be right Farv....your area :-)
[13:38] Qwark Allen: i was thinking more in gigaherz
[13:38] herman Bergson: With Mhz our brain would be cooke din no time
[13:38] Qwark Allen: the calculations in brain are more then 40 hertz/second
[13:39] herman Bergson: I am no neuro scientist...I just pick up the idea...
[13:39] Qwark Allen: for a computer reach the brain speed, they got to evoulte processors more 20 years
[13:39] Qwark Allen: CPUs now are around 16 gigahertz
[13:39] Farv Hallison: Hertz is oscilations per second
[13:39] Qwark Allen: or calculations
[13:40] herman Bergson: the main point...philosophically and from a brian state point of view is
[13:40] herman Bergson: that there is nothing in the brain that shows this oneness which we as a person experience....
[13:41] herman Bergson: So ..there is no "I" in the brain....but it is in the mind!
[13:41] herman Bergson: when mental states and brain stated are identical...we may have a problem here with the "I"
[13:42] herman Bergson: We could suggest that the "I" is constituted by consciousness
[13:42] herman Bergson: produced by consciousness....
[13:43] herman Bergson: I really have to think about this....

[13:43] herman Bergson: or the "I" is identical to consciousness which is identical to a brianstate....
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well, I guess I drop this puzzle into your laps ^_^
[13:44] herman Bergson: and thank you for your participation...
[13:44] Farv Hallison: ^_^
[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: if you figure it out you'll get the nobel prize probably, Herman:)
13:44] herman Bergson: You might be right about that, Lizzy
[13:44] Bibbe Oh: or lynched
[13:44] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:45] Frederica Lexenstar: there is no nobel prize in philosophy
[13:45] herman Bergson: Well a prize or a funeral…I am working on it...
[13:45] Frederica Lexenstar: :-P
[13:45] Bibbe Oh: they reward Philosophers oddly in our world
[13:45] Bibbe Oh: or have in history
[13:45] Frederica Lexenstar: hemlock
[13:45] herman Bergson: What you say Bibbe…..!!!!
[13:45] herman Bergson: That is true....
[13:46] herman Bergson: isn't that amazing actually !!!!
[13:46] Bibbe Oh: yes!
[13:46] herman Bergson: It tells something about the way this Nobel looked at this world
[13:46] Qwark Allen: i have to go
[13:47] Qwark Allen: see you tuesday
[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: TC Qwark
[13:47] Qwark Allen: ty hermaan, exellent lecture
[13:47] Qwark Allen: .-)
[13:47] herman Bergson: Ok Qwark...
[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...^_^
[13:47] Frederica Lexenstar: thank you!'
[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman
[13:47] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:47] Farv Hallison: Thank you Professor Bergson
[13:48] Bibbe Oh: thank you, Professor
[13:48] herman Bergson: Nice class again....thank you
[13:49] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): have a nice evening all:)
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: Good night Herman, good night everybody!
[13:49] herman Bergson: Night Lizzy

Lecture 346: What if the mind is a property of the brain?

Today I want to present to you a very common explanation of consciousness. Consciousness has different meanings. We are conscious or asleep, for instance.

But in our discourse I define consciousness as a personal realm of subjective experiences… that is….what I hear,smell, taste, feel and see. Some philosophers call it "phenomenal consciousness"

Let's look at a general process…. Your eyes see a bird. The image is projected on the retina in the eye. The data are transmitted to the brain and in the brain you have the image of that bird.

"I can picture it in my mind.." is a common expression. What it all boils down to is the common sense theory of the Inner Theater. We tend to believe that we are a kind of watching an inner screen.

Is consciousness indeed something like that. Does the Inner Theater theory explain consciousness?

The odd thing with this common believe about consciousness and how it works, is, that everybody can see that it is completely false, that the brain doesn't work like that, but yet love to use it.

There is plenty of empirical counter-evidence. The cutaneous rabbit illusion, for instance, is a tactile illusion evoked by tapping two separate regions of the skin.

A rapid sequence of taps delivered first near the wrist, and then near the elbow creates the sensation of sequential taps hopping up the arm from the wrist towards the elbow, although no physical stimulus was applied between the two actual stimulus locations.

If there is an inner theater of consciousness at which we receive sensory messages from the outlying senses, the images should show up on the screen in the order they come in from the exterior sources.

But that is not the case at all… Say you feel 12 taps on your arm, moving from wrist to elbow. Only tap 1, 6 and 12 are real taps. The brain fills in tap 3, 4 and 6. But how can it do that, if it not also knows tap 6?

Likewise we have auditory illusions where the brain fools us with respect to the order of incoming sensory data. A sound that seems to move through the room from the left to the right speaker and back, for instance.

A movie is a series of still images, but yet we see movement. We have a plethora of visual tricks, which create illusions that only can be cooked up by the brain by manipulating the order of the incoming data. Movies and TV are the simplest examples.

Ok…Let's test the inner theater some more. Imagine a soldier. There he is on your inner screen, standing there with his weapon.

Now answer a few questions honestly. Don't fill them in flanks after the question. You have to know the answer , that is see your soldier, before I ask the question.

[13:21] herman Bergson: Ok..you have imagined your soldier...on your inner screen?
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: yes
[13:21] Pirie Takacs: Yes

Has your soldier scares? Are there decorations and medals on his uniform jacket? Does he wear a helmet? What color is his jacket? And his pants? Are there buttons on his jacket and if how many?

If you were looking at a real picture you could have answered all the questions easily, but that is not how imagination works…there is no inner screen with a picture.

[13:22] herman Bergson: I guess you had no answer to a few of the questions
[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: if i look at my inner screen i cant answer all questions
[13:23] herman Bergson: exactly...
[13:23] Sybyle Perdide: nods
[13:23] Mick Nerido: mine was a green toy solder
[13:23] herman Bergson: because there is no inner screen :-)

Where do you think your inner theater is???
Yes…in your head…somewhere behind your eyes, isn't it?

That believe is just a cultural indoctrination. The Egyptians mummified their pharaos. Mummified the heart, the liver and kidneys, but removed the brain from the skull….useless in an afterlife. That was not the place where the mind resides, according to them.


In neurobiology we find no indication of a location in the brain where all things come together as in an inner theater in the brain.

There are motoric areas, language areas and so on in the brain, but not some kind of central unifying processor.

The inner theater idea works only for sight. If it were a correct description of consciousness it should work for all senses. But what pictures do you see with taste or smell?

When the eye sees something, the image is said to be projected on the inner screen. But then there must be somebody who is watching that screen! The inner me! And should that inner me not have its own Inner Theater too with an inner me2, watching …and so on?

A dead end street, it seems. This theory doesn't answer our questions. Dualism wasn't an answer either. So we might end up with the conclusion, that the mind is a property, a feature of the brain.

That offers us a mountain of new questions…..


The Discussion

[13:28] herman Bergson: So much on our first attempt to close in on consciousness...
[13:29] herman Bergson: The floor is yours....
[13:29] Doodus Moose: sometimes, when i fall asleep -
[13:29] Doodus Moose: and start to dream - i can see an image form
[13:29] Doodus Moose: ...but immediately wake up
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: (sorry have to leave - real life needs me - have a good discussion all)
[13:29] Doodus Moose: a VERY crude version of this image stays in my "eyes" if i keep them closed
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well Doodus...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe it is not an image, but a description....
[13:30] herman Bergson: a description is always incomplete...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Like you imagined the soldier...
[13:30] herman Bergson: it wasn't a clean clear cut picture...
[13:30] Doodus Moose: it's monochrome (usually brownish), and mostly outlines
[13:30] herman Bergson: but you could have given a description
[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: i think our brain is lazy and only sees some features
[13:31] Doodus Moose: yes
[13:31] Mick Nerido: illiterate people "see" the world differently.
[13:31] herman Bergson: to call the brain lazy is an evaluation produced by the brain….funny :-)
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ehehhe
[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: lol
[13:32] herman Bergson: I don't call my brain lazy ^_^
[13:32] Qwark Allen: we don`t see the all picture, we focalize
[13:32] Qwark Allen: then the brain fills the blank points
[13:32] Qwark Allen: very complex
[13:32] herman Bergson: we don't see pictures at all I would say Qwark...
[13:32] Mick Nerido: we see what we think is there...the gorella in the room experiment..
[13:33] herman Bergson: We can give descriptions of things we imagine
[13:33] Qwark Allen: we have a restricted vision of the surrounding
[13:33] Qwark Allen: we see a infidecimal part of nature
[13:33] Doodus Moose: does self-hypnosis play in the theater of the mind?
[13:33] Doodus Moose: (or hypnosis, for that matter)
[13:33] Qwark Allen: cause of our restricted vision
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: isn't it a special quality to imagine more than average?
[13:34] herman Bergson: Well, Lizzy, I would say that artists do?
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: yes, i would say that
[13:35] herman Bergson: But the main point is, that our consciousness is not a kind of screen we are looking at
[13:35] Sybyle Perdide: nods
[13:35] herman Bergson: in the brain there even is a part that can be pointed out as the unifying control center...
[13:36] herman Bergson: this is a great mystery of the brain...
[13:36] herman Bergson: Francis Crick (if I spell his name right)
[13:36] Mick Nerido: What is control center?
[13:37] Sybyle Perdide: its not only controlling, it also selects and combines, I would say
[13:37] herman Bergson: has the theory that tis unity occurs when certain parts of the brain all are at 40Mhz vibrairion or so...
[13:37] herman Bergson: Well, Mick...
[13:37] herman Bergson: You experience yourself as a whole..a unity...
[13:38] herman Bergson: but in brainscans they can't find that ONE spot...where all comes together
[13:38] herman Bergson: so
[13:38] herman Bergson: our consciousness tells us we are one...
[13:39] herman Bergson: but physiologically in the brain...there is not such a thing
[13:39] herman Bergson: just a multitude of areas that fire
[13:39] lentelies Anatine is Offline
[13:40] herman Bergson: The difficulty of the question after consciousness is really breath taking...
[13:40] herman Bergson: But I wont give up ^_^
[13:40] herman Bergson: Next lecture on coming Thursday ^_^
[13:41] Doodus Moose: (just to share)
[13:41] Doodus Moose: i had a vision of a wall of glass
[13:41] Doodus Moose: along with the vision was orders to build a house
[13:41] Qwark Allen: was very interesting today herman
[13:41] Doodus Moose: i'm ill-equipped to do so,
[13:41] Adriana Jinn: it is really interesting
[13:41] Doodus Moose: but..... today i live in that house (which i designed)
[13:42] herman Bergson: ok Doodus
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: it is an exciting theme
[13:42] Sybyle Perdide: will you continue this, herman?
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy and we are closing in on the hot spot of it...:-)
[13:42] Pirie Takacs: You say that unity occurs after - is it some- parts of the brain fire at 40mhz, couldnt it be that the whole of the brain IS the centre of unity?
[13:43] herman Bergson: But of course Sybyle...
[13:43] herman Bergson: We only saw the top of the iceberg
[13:43] Adriana Jinn: that is such a difficult theme
[13:43] Sybyle Perdide: yay
[13:43] Adriana Jinn: but real interesting
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: and i hope we are not the titanic
[13:43] Mick Nerido: Yes Pirie!
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes it is difficult...but a worthwhile challenge!
[13:44] herman Bergson: Ah Pirie....see your remark
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes of course it is the whole brain....
[13:45] herman Bergson: but that doesn't explain a thing about consciousness
[13:45] Pirie Takacs: Then why are we looking for one spot?
[13:45] Mot Mann is Online
[13:45] herman Bergson: nor the feeling we have to be ONE identity
[13:45] Qwark Allen: i have to go
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: TC qwark
[13:45] Qwark Allen: looking forward for next lecture
[13:45] Qwark Allen: see you tuesday
[13:45] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:45] Qwark Allen: ty
[13:45] Qwark Allen: see you all sooon
[13:45] Mick Nerido: Bye
[13:46] herman Bergson: Bye Qwark!
[13:46] herman Bergson: No Pirie..it is the other way around...
[13:46] herman Bergson: we experience ourselves as a whole...as one...
[13:46] herman Bergson: when you look at the brain....
[13:47] herman Bergson: there is nowhere on fMRI scans one big red dot all the time present...
[13:47] herman Bergson: just a number of firing areas...
[13:47] Pirie Takacs nods
[13:48] Doodus Moose: like a lightning storm (almost)
[13:48] herman Bergson: so on the one hand we may say that I am my brain...
[13:48] Kicki Spingflower is Online
[13:48] Sybyle Perdide: may I ask..
[13:48] herman Bergson: on the other hand I dont know how my brain generates this one personal identity experience
[13:48] herman Bergson: what we call self awareness
[13:49] herman Bergson: You had a question Sybyle
[13:49] Sybyle Perdide: what about babies?
[13:50] Sybyle Perdide: do they see themselves also as aunit?
[13:50] Sybyle Perdide: or must they learn
[13:50] Janette Shim is Offline
[13:50] herman Bergson: a difficult question.....
[13:51] herman Bergson: the human being is after birth a developing organism
[13:51] herman Bergson: self awareness and a feeling of personal identity...the THIS IS ME feeling emerges during the development of the organism
[13:52] herman Bergson: The only thing you can say for sure is, that it will emerge eventually in every human being
[13:52] herman Bergson: I mean....that is what the brain develops into...
[13:52] Sybyle Perdide: thank you
[13:53] Doodus Moose: "the human mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be set alight"
[13:53] herman Bergson: that is a nice metaphor Doodus...
[13:54] SonolaLuna Greymoon is Online
[13:54] herman Bergson: the human being , from birth, is a developing organism in interaction with its environment and learning to survive
[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate is Online
[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: can we say the brain is always in a changing process that never ends?
[13:55] herman Bergson: If you look at evolution Lizzy, the answer should be YES...
[13:55] Doodus Moose: thanks everyone, for a good discussion ;-)
[13:55] Pirie Takacs: Surely it must be the firing of the brain as a whole, so maybe it is a mistake to look for the 'one' place, I am thinking. Maybe the entire function of the brain is to 'be' us, and the parts we can isolate and attribute our separate functioning processes to are just that, only parts that make up the reason our brain exists in the first place - to run our bodies and to give us a sense of 'self' or consciousness? I apologise if my question sounds silly.
[13:55] herman Bergson: thank you Doodus
[13:55] Yakuzza Lethecus is Offline
[13:56] herman Bergson: smiles at Pirie....
[13:57] herman Bergson: You just committed a sin ^_^
[13:57] Pirie Takacs blushes
[13:57] herman Bergson: Even though your name tag says Innocent ...:-)
[13:57] liessllvontrapp Resident is Offline
[13:57] herman Bergson: You offended against ~rule 5 :-)
[13:58] Pirie Takacs: Maybe I should change it to dumb, as a warning... *smiles contritely
[13:58] herman Bergson: no no....dont!
[13:58] herman Bergson: We are a small group now...so no problem...
[13:58] ellenilli Lavendel is Offline
[13:59] Pirie Takacs: Well.. I just have a problem with philosophy at times being a little less than practical, for me :)
[13:59] herman Bergson: I only mean that it doesnt work to drop large peices of text in a discussion like this...
[13:59] Pirie Takacs: I do apologise
[14:00] herman Bergson: no no...it is ok...you are rather new here...
[14:00] herman Bergson: you are excused
[14:00] Pirie Takacs: I only asked because I thought we could
[14:00] Omei Qunhua is Online
[14:00] Pirie Takacs: It is my first visit, yes
[14:00] Adriana Jinn: even if you are there since sometime it is not easy
[14:01] Adriana Jinn: grrr
[14:01] Adriana Jinn: the english is not easy for me so I dont talk but listening
[14:01] herman Bergson: philosophy isn't less than practical...
[14:01] herman Bergson: In fact it is at the heart of things...
[14:02] herman Bergson: To question the obvious...
[14:02] Pirie Takacs: I agree we need to think about things, but sometimes we need to alter our approach to a question also, I think.
[14:02] herman Bergson: what do you mean by that Pirie?
[14:03] herman Bergson: alter our approach to a question
[14:03] Pirie Takacs: Well, if we continue to look at a problem the same way and can't find an answer like that, maybe we need to look at the problem from a new angle?
[14:03] Adriana Jinn: it is very interesting but unfortunately have to go
[14:04] Adriana Jinn: thanks a lot herman see you soon
[14:04] Adriana Jinn: bye bye all
[14:04] Sybyle Perdide: au revoir Adriana
[14:04] Pirie Takacs: Bye :)
[14:04] herman Bergson: Bye Adriana
[14:04] Lizzy Pleides: bye Adriana
[14:04] Adriana Jinn: au revoir
[14:04] herman Bergson: Ohhh....
[14:04] herman Bergson: there you really hit bull's eye Pirie!
[14:05] herman Bergson: We have our language...
[14:05] herman Bergson: our way to describe mental things like emotions, experiences and so on..
[14:06] herman Bergson: But is it the right way of describing things?
[14:06] herman Bergson: Don't we need another "language" to describe the ways of the brain?
[14:06] herman Bergson: For example....
[14:07] Omei Qunhua is Offline
[14:07] herman Bergson: in the Middle Ages all kinds of things happened because of curses by whitches
[14:07] herman Bergson: illnesses were send by god to punish the sinners...
[14:07] herman Bergson: today we speak a totally different language....
[14:08] herman Bergson: illensses are caused by virusses
[14:08] herman Bergson: we dont cure them by endless praying..we use antibiotics..
[14:08] Pirie Takacs chuckles.. Some people still believe illnesses are sent by gods to punish us :)
[14:09] herman Bergson: sighs...
[14:09] herman Bergson: I know :-)
[14:09] Pirie Takacs: And such is the power of the mind that sometimes prayer does seem to 'cure' you... *smiles
[14:09] Pirie Takacs: I know what you are saying, but I was thinking more of asking the questions from another angle.
[14:09] herman Bergson: True...I admit that we do not at all understand the working of the mind
[14:09] Pirie Takacs: Possibly, but also in the questions we ask about the brain. If thinking there 'must' be a centre where our consciousness springs from is maybe an assumption only?
[14:10] herman Bergson: Yes..it is ...produced by that same brain...
[14:10] herman Bergson: so we have to find some explanation for it...
[14:11] herman Bergson: We still have a lot of lectures to go ^_^
[14:11] Sybyle Perdide: smiles
[14:11] Sybyle Perdide: I hope so
[14:11] Lizzy Pleides: yes we have , thank you for this lesson today Herman
[14:11] herman Bergson: oh ..dont worry Sybyle ^_^
[14:12] Pirie Takacs: K. I hope I can make it to all of them :)
[14:12] herman Bergson: My pleasure Lizzy!
[14:12] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

341: The Mystery of the Brain Resumed

Welcome everyone (^_^)
It is good to see you here again. In a way this is a festive moment, for this is the 5th year, that I begin my series of lectures on the first of September.

I have done a number of projects, but the present one, still "The Mystery of the Brain", is my most cherished one, because it is the direct follow up of the thesis I defended in 1977 at the university.

In the 80s an avalanche of new information and scientific knowledge about the brain and consequently the mind has come down over us.

September 2010 I began with the project "The Mystery of the Brain" and for pragmatic reasons I told you, that we wouldn't discuss metaphysics for a while but assume a materialist point of view.

This fitted in perfectly well with the number of subjects, which we have discussed so far. We explored, what Bruce M. Hood named our "Supersense" and its function.

We traveled through many examples of the functioning of the brain in relation to what we believe is real. We learnt about fMRI scans of the brain. Ran into a highly questionable use of it, to check whether somebody was telling the truth of not.

We studied the brain machine and how it is driven by a set of basic emotions which we to a high extend share with other mammals on this earth.

But the most important what you can have learnt is, that our notion of the human being has gone through a number of fundamental paradigmatic changes during the past 500 years.

Time and again we had to answer the question for the meaning of man, the meaning of our existence in a different way due to paradigmatic shifts.

Galileo Galilei removed us around 1610 from the center of the universe. Charles Darwin showed in 1859 that we are a part of nature, not above nature.

Around 1900 Sigmund Freud made clear to us that we are not only consciousness, but that there also exists an influential subconsciousness.

In 1953, James D. Watson and Francis Crick suggested what is now accepted as the first correct double-helix model of DNA structure in the journal Nature.

And all of a sudden life in its qualities became something , which can be manipulated and for instance genetically changed or as some say, improved.

In the past year I have demonstrated to you that now again we are confronted with a fundamental paradigmatic shift regarding the answer of our basic question for the meaning of life.

Who still believes that man is primarily the product of his rational thinking, is wrong. Subconsciously, we take numerous decisions. The idea that we are the rationally calculating person, who decides based on free will, is taken from us.

Many contemporary psychologist, neuroscientist are now convinced that the homo sapiens mainly is a bag of primary emotions, which are the real, often subconscious drive behind his actions.

In relation to the almost 2 million years of our evolution as homo sapiens in a relatively short time of hardly 500 years we moved from the center of the universe and the stewards of creation to being a sometimes even harmful part of the ecosystem of this planet.

Actually not a bad achievement to put us in our right place in relatively such a short time. Wow…"right place" ???? That really is a big assumption !!!

Yes, that will be our next target. What to do with this avalanche of neurobiological data, with the thesis "We are our brain". Till today we have kept the real philosophical questions in the background.

It was a pragmatic choice, so that I could present to you all these new data about the brain / mind which had emerged since the 80s. But that is over now. We have heard enough.

The next series of lectures will focus on our main theme: the philosophy of mind. All that science looks so convincing and has an enormous impact on our ideas about the meaning of life.

But is it philosophically all that simple and straightforward. Will it be the neuroscientists, who tell us that philosophy (of Mind) is dead? I don't think so….

The Discussion
[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: The floor is yours
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very good
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: interesting
[13:28] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:28] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:28] herman Bergson: thank you....
[13:29] Adriana Jinn: thank you herman
[13:29] herman Bergson: But the show still has to begin now..:-)
[13:29] Adriana Jinn: real interesting herman
[13:29] herman Bergson: Now we go for the real thing!
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:29] Adriana Jinn: yes
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: can be interesting
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: the things before was for sure
[13:29] herman Bergson: Oh yes Bejiita...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: )
[13:29] Qwark Allen: getting more interesting even
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: a
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i actually heard a neurobiologist say that he believes that the current developments in internet tech is actually changing the shape of the brain... allowing a better ability to focus and change from one thing to another in the mind more quickly
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry! for 2 lines
[13:30] Doodus Moose: once i see how a special effect is done in the movies, it seems less "magic" - i hope this won't be the same for our minds
[13:30] herman Bergson smiles
[13:30] herman Bergson: You have that privilege Gemma !
[13:30] Adriana Jinn: smiles doodus
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:31] herman Bergson: But what the man said is bull in my opinion :-)
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
[13:31] herman Bergson: No..Dooodus...
[13:31] herman Bergson: I think that after all the neuro science info....
[13:31] herman Bergson: philosophy will show you that the mind is more magic than science can tell!
[13:32] Doodus Moose:
[13:32] Doodus Moose: i'll continue to insist i'm worth more than the sum of my parts :-)
[13:32] herman Bergson: that is the whole point Doodus!!!!!
[13:33] herman Bergson: You are more than the sum of your neurons...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Just be patient...
[13:33] herman Bergson: When we try to understand consciousness in relation to the brain...
[13:34] herman Bergson: such a tough problem.. !
[13:34] Qwark Allen: we`ll get there
[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Qwark..
[13:34] herman Bergson: I'l start at the beginning...
[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not sure the more we learn the more questions we seem to have
[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is no end
[13:35] Qwark Allen: that is a good sign always
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:35] Adriana Jinn: smiles
[13:35] herman Bergson: No Gemma..if there were, we would be just machines...
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:35] herman Bergson: clockworks.....and maybe orange too then
[13:36] Doodus Moose: the logical conclusion is: we're confronted with a near-infinity of unanswered questions just before death :-)
[13:36] Doodus Moose: ... then we get the answer to everything :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Doodus
[13:37] herman Bergson: well after death...I'd prefer to be just dead...
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:37] Adriana Jinn: smiles
[13:37] Doodus Moose: dead? seems like such a waste of time
[13:37] herman Bergson: no ado about answers and questions plz :-)
[13:37] herman Bergson: a waste of time????
[13:38] herman Bergson: Just imagine that after death you have to live for eternity...!!!!!
[13:38] herman Bergson: thta would drive me mad...!
[13:38] oola Neruda: all men are mortal
[13:38] Doodus Moose: i'm looking forwards to my own personal "millenium falcon"
[13:38] Alaya Kumaki: well, if its not eternity it might be as here
[13:38] herman Bergson: You got it oola...Simone de Beauvoir!
[13:38] oola Neruda: nods
[13:38] Adriana Jinn: but perhaps have to learn lots of thing after ?
[13:38] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): sorry i have to go..thank you Herman
[13:39] herman Bergson: take care Beertje ^_^
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you soon
[13:39] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:39] Doodus Moose: take care, Gemma
[13:39] Adriana Jinn: bye bye beerje
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: cberg
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not me .. beertje
[13:40] herman Bergson: well...
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye, Bejiiita :-)
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hugs
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!
[13:40] Qwark Allen: ehehhehe
[13:40] herman Bergson: I think we are ready for phase 2 then!
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hm yes
[13:40] Adriana Jinn: yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: HEy..Itsme is here too!!!!
[13:41] Qwark Allen: ㋡ ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Helloooooo! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:41] Qwark Allen: Hey! ITSME
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: lol
[13:41] herman Bergson: hey man..where have you been...
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: funny name,:))
[13:41] oola Neruda: hey Itsme
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: hi^^
[13:41] Adriana Jinn: hi
[13:41] itsme Frederix: I've been existing
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum accepted your inventory offer.
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: h Itsme
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: do you live at itsmeland?
[13:41] itsme Frederix: hi all
[13:41] itsme Frederix: glad to see you, but please continue
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hey!!! itsyou!!! good to see you!!
[13:42] herman Bergson: well...I think we dealt with all problems of the world now Itsme..:-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: We are done
[13:42] herman Bergson: all is well :-)
[13:43] itsme Frederix: so I came in the right time
[13:43] Doodus Moose: time to get all smoky......byeeee!!!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: unless you still have a question, of course ^_^
[13:43] itsme Frederix: I would not dare
[13:43] herman Bergson: good!
[13:43] Alaya Kumaki: i do have one, only, can i havea copy paste of yur today s text?
[13:43] herman Bergson: Then I thank you all for your participation ...^_^
[13:43] Alaya Kumaki: because i arrive late
[13:44] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: Hooo!!!
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: Hoooo!
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it will all be in the blog
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i must go :-(((( tysm! herman and class!! see u tuesday
[13:44] Qwark Allen: looking foward for tuesday
[13:44] herman Bergson: Have a nice weekend you all:-)
[13:44] Qwark Allen: :-)))
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: bye bye and thank so much
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you too
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: this was nice for sure
[13:44] herman Bergson: See you all next Tuesday...
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: same to you herman
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: euntil next time cu ㋡
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye+ all
[13:44] herman Bergson: And Gemma..you are excuses when being late
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: bye bye for now
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum:
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: .,¡i|¹i¡¡i¹|i¡,. .,¡i|¹i¡¡i¹|i¡,.
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: `'¹li¡|¡|¡il¹'` `'¹li¡|¡|¡il¹'`
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum:
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: have a nice end of evening
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:46] herman Bergson: lol...Adriana...
[13:47] herman Bergson: A pitty you missed the lecture Itsme..

285: The Brain ... The fifth Revolution

When you engage in the philosophical debate about the mind, it is impossible confine the debate to a philosophical discourse only. Too many other disciplines are involved too, like anthropology, biology, cognitive psychology, neurobiology.

The mind is no longer the private playground of philosophers. In my former lectures I referred to a Dutch publication by Dick Swaab, "We are our Brain". It is a bestseller at the moment. In other words, the brain is a hot issue these days.

The neurologist , Vilyanur Ramachandran, of the University of California in San Diego called it 'the Fifth Revolution". The latest in a series of scientific warp jumps, which toppled world views and caused great spiritual and social changes.

The first one occurred in the 16th century. Copernicus was the great revolutionary then, who proved that the earth was not the center of the universe but just a planet rotating around the sun.

The universe was God's creation and as everybody then believed, the earth was the center of this creation….
No longer and this gave rise to all kinds of fundamental questions.

The second revolution took place in the 19th century, when Charles Darwin showed that all living organisms are descended from basic organisms, which then had evolved in millions of directions by adapting themselves to a constantly changing environment.

The third shock came when Sigmund Freud introduced the mind, the psyche, as an objective entity that could be studied. And even more shocking was, that he showed that a lot of our actions aren't controlled at all by our ratio. There appeared to be something like the subconscious.


Half a century ago the fourth revolution took place. By discovering the structure of heredity James Watson and Francis Crick transformed biology into a science for engineers.

Genetic engineering is a common thing today. In our lectures on supersense we also observed that genetic engineering can get into conflict with our supersense ideas about life. Is it good or bad all this meddling with genes?

Just dig into the subject of "haplogroups". By historic DNA analysis we have discovered how mankind spread over the earth, where its cradle stood and that the Aryan race for instance is only a fiction.

What is the fifth revolution? Look at the picture named "The Brainmap". As we have unraveled the human genome, we would also be able to map the entire human brain.

Just think about this question: What will happen to the human mind if we have mapped every braincell and its function and every connection between them?

How will it affect our idea about being an individual person, a Self, an Identity. When we know and understand the function of every braincell, could we change personality whenever we like for instance.

Everything that makes us human finds its origin in brain tissue. Do we get reduced to chemical processes, electric pulses and processes that blindly follow the laws of nature?

Religion then is called a normal neurological phenomenon, moral choices are no longer the expression of spiritual development and integrity of the soul,

but can partly be explained as the result of automatic processes, which emerged from a blind and amoral evolution.
How are we going to explain consciousness……?

The fifth revolutions seems to lead us to a neurocentrism, a way of thinking which locates the essence of being human in the brain and where the brain tells you who you are.

I made the Evolution map to give you an impression of where we stand from a historical point of view. Evolution used almost 5 million years to toy with the Hominids (humans and great apes) and their brain.

New models emerged and disappeared again. Brain volume increased and again new models on the market…… eventually the Neaderthals and Homo sapiens.

And as you see, we are only a very young group of hominids in this millions of years lasting evolutionary process. We like to think, that we are the final outcome of evolution, but what about the next million years?

No philosopher can ignore these developments. Then, let us go and see what this fifth revolution will mean for our philosophical discourse on the Mind.


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:25] herman Bergson: What was your remark Qwark?
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: it is amazing how it has changed from the first man
[13:25] Qwark Allen: the bone that is making the direction, you ask
[13:25] Simargl Talaj: herman Bergson: Everything that makes us human finds its origin in brain tissue. Do we get reduced to chemical processes, electric pulses and processes that blindly follow the laws of nature? My answer:We can mourn: alas, there is nothing sublime, we are just chemicals. Or we can affirm: marvelous, chemistry does these things!
[13:25] Qwark Allen: it`s the sphenoid
[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: what has exhanged?
[13:25] Qwark Allen: http://www.lynwillmott.com.au/sphenoid-bone/
[13:25] Simargl Talaj: Consciousness is an activity. Mind is what brain does. Brain and mind are dancer and the dance.
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: the brain even the size and shape
[13:26] Qwark Allen: you can see where evolution is getting us, by understanding the evolution of sphenoid
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:26] Abraxas Nagy: mmmm I am no Darwinist
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: you have a link?? q?
[13:26] Qwark Allen: http://www.lynwillmott.com.au/sphenoid-bone/
[13:26] Qwark Allen: i saw several documents about it
[13:26] Simargl Talaj: The dance survives, even when we know the choreogrpaher.
[13:27] Simargl Talaj: Every human experience that led us to belief in god etcetera still exists. Whatever was valuable is still valuable. Whatever is sacred is still sacred, if natural.
[13:27] herman Bergson: I'll check it out Qwark..
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: I will read that later
[13:27] Qwark Allen: ok
[13:27] Qwark Allen: you`ll find it very interesting
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: aa have to check it out then
[13:27] herman Bergson: Great!
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: my brain and me: the ultimate master/slave? Frightening
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is the fundamental problem Aristotle….
[13:28] Simargl Talaj: Qwark there's research suggesting genes for weaker jaw muslce relieved pressure on sagital crest that suppresses skull expansion.
[13:28] herman Bergson: my brain and me, while me is the brain....
[13:28] herman Bergson: that is what philosophers fight about ^_^
[13:28] Simargl Talaj: Master, slave? If you own yourself there is neither.
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: master-slave- these are terms used in social relationships..
[13:29] herman Bergson: It is a metaphore yes
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: I am not convinced of course....I am master of my brain to the extent of my operative skills
[13:29] Simargl Talaj: What do you mean, Ari, please?
[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: well.. aren't we slaves of your body' ? ask Dawkins
[13:30] herman Bergson: But a fundamental problem is that I can think about myself....where myself is semantically not identical with the "I" who is thinking
[13:30] Simargl Talaj: Who is this "I" of which you speak? That is not itself a brain?
[13:30] herman Bergson: we'll get to that problem sooner or later
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: I suspect we are much more than cells
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes simargl...it is the homunculus problem...
[13:31] herman Bergson: There is a little man in my head that controls me, that is the "I"
[13:31] Simargl Talaj: I wish I could read more than two lines of Ari at once :)
[13:31] herman Bergson: but the problem is that the homunculus has a head with a brain in it too and so on
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: does the brain project itself into our self awareness?
[13:32] herman Bergson: the brain generates the self awareness
[13:32] Simargl Talaj: little fleas have lesser fleas/ upon their backs, that bite 'em/ and lesser fleas have lesser fleas/ and so, ad infinitum.
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: no more free will then
[13:32] herman Bergson: Here you already touch on a major issue...
[13:33] Simargl Talaj: I see it as entirely a semantic problem, not one of real operation.
[13:33] herman Bergson: we can do all kinds of physiological statements about the brain....
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: th locatioin of self awareness has been discovered?
[13:34] herman Bergson: and indeed simargl ..some philosophers regard words like mind, self , self awareness as a semantical problem
[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: and we can do all kinds of supernatural statements too
[13:34] herman Bergson: In a way yes, Aristotle...
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: where is the you that is looking out of you eyes right now?
[13:35] Simargl Talaj: Aristotle much consciousness is the sum effect of different centers working together. A stream of reports from different offices in the building.
[13:35] herman Bergson: I think I'll go into that issue soon, but a person can change into a complete different Self because of brain damage
[13:35] Simargl Talaj: Herman --- yes.
[13:35] Simargl Talaj: we are organic.
[13:35] herman Bergson: In fact Alzheimer is an example of that....
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: and self determination originates where?
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: ari.. by looking at the other
[13:36] herman Bergson: Because of such observations we will encounter great difficulties with concepts as the Self , personal Identity and consciousness
[13:36] herman Bergson: As I told you in the very beginning....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Different from a project on 100 philosophers, which is known ground for me, this project is a quest for me...
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: it is a mysterious journey for sure
[13:37] Simargl Talaj: Herman, then why is it a philosophical quest at all, since the answers lie in studies of the organic?
[13:38] herman Bergson: I have no idea (well global ideas yes) what lies ahead of us...where we will arrive at
[13:38] Simargl Talaj: No epistemology anymore -- just cognitive neurobiology, education psychology.
[13:39] herman Bergson: The philosophical part is in the fact that we can talk about ourselves, describe ourselves
[13:39] Simargl Talaj: Why look for a ball in center field after you've seen it fly out toward first base?
[13:39] Qwark Allen: according to the sphenoid, we`ll be anatomically similar to the "grey aliens", with expanded minds
[13:39] herman Bergson: and in the fact that neurobiology answers certain questions but certainly not all
[13:39] Simargl Talaj: What is left for philosophers , then?
[13:39] Qwark Allen: witch is very curios thing
[13:40] herman Bergson: That is our question Simargl....
[13:40] herman Bergson: to give a "simple: example......
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: as long as thought exists, there will be philosophers
[13:40] BALDUR Joubert: plenty simargl.. just as there was plenty left after kopernicus
[13:40] herman Bergson: Do we have a free will.......?
[13:40] Simargl Talaj: or as long as endowed chairs exist anyhow :)
[13:41] abraxa Qork: wb gemma ㋡
[13:41] herman Bergson: If everything is just chemical processes, etc...then all is deterministic…according to the rules of nature
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: wb gemma
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:41] herman Bergson: But we still believe that we are not automatons....that we decide ourselves
[13:42] herman Bergson: That the decision in not the outcome of pre-programmed chemical brain processes
[13:42] Simargl Talaj: So you can create paradigms to describe it, metaphors, models, that are not merely descriptions of organic and chemical processes.
[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: culture has any role in that?
[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: what we decide'
[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: ?¨
[13:43] herman Bergson: One of the questions amy be whether our descriptions of the mind are just metaphors or not
[13:43] Simargl Talaj: Herman why is it so hard to accept that we are both the product of natural causes, and also the creators of more causes? I don't see the conflict.
[13:43] Simargl Talaj: Looks just like a cascade reaction in chemistry.
[13:43] herman Bergson: There you go.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: We are the result of natural causes....AND CREATOR of causes...
[13:44] herman Bergson: that creator is transcending the natural causes in this statement
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aah
[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: like a volcano in indonesia
[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: I believe that I, my mind, issues direction to my brain, and it responds within the realm of natural law as to success or failure or those commands
[13:44] herman Bergson: someone/something else than the result of natural causes
[13:45] Simargl Talaj: " herman Bergson: But we still believe that we are not automatons....that we decide ourselves" ....stated as if the two were opposed, mutually exclusive. They do not seem so to me. Nature works like that all the time.
[13:45] herman Bergson: But Aristotle....were does your mind come from????
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, where is it?
[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: culture'
[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: ?
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: I can not hold it to show
[13:46] Simargl Talaj: CUlture is also a product of minds:)
[13:46] Simargl Talaj: The fact that culture is a product of minds and minds are a product of culture are not opposites. No paradox.
[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: culture is a product of the minds.. in history
[13:46] herman Bergson: My statements are no definite answers or observations Simargl, they are considerations, thoughts, attempts
[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: no paradox.. but a basis..
[13:47] herman Bergson: As you see, in no time things are getting pretty complex here
[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: we can't talk about the mind without talking about the "programming"
[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: is it that we are sop grounded in our physical perceptions that we are blinded to the truth?
[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: as usual the complex part lol'
[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: brain-yes.. chemical.physical..
[13:48] herman Bergson: Ok.....
[13:48] Simargl Talaj: I do not agree that being a creator of causes is to transcend natural causes. It is one set of causes and effects generationg another set of causes and effects, as an outcome of the previous set, not in contradiction of it.
[13:49] herman Bergson: the trend of today is that neurobiology is gonna answer a lot , maybe all, questions that puzzled philosophers
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: if the mind truly is separate fromthe brain, it would be in the natural order
[13:50] herman Bergson: if you allow me to say so...simplified but we have books on the shelves now that say WE ARE OUR BRAIN
[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: well..we have a brain.. just like arms and legs..
[13:51] BALDUR Joubert: doesn't answer the philosophical question what we are
[13:51] herman Bergson: I think our project is to answer the question if the statement WE ARE OUR BRAIN really answers all our philosophical questions about ourself, about human existence, about ethics and so on
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Baldus….We have a brain or we are a brain........
[13:52] herman Bergson: just that simple linguistic difference contains a lot of questions and implications
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: I need some of those imbedded electrodes so I could behave better, just stir it up a bit
[13:52] BALDUR Joubert: we have.. like many other living species
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:53] Simargl Talaj: We experience responsibility and agency. The source of these in phyysics does not alter the fact that we experience them
[13:53] Simargl Talaj: and must respond to them.
[13:53] herman Bergson: No Simargl…so what is the relation between what happens physicaly and what we experience....
[13:54] Simargl Talaj: I cannot solve a moral problem by rearranging some electrons with tweezers. I use the means available to me. They are, incidentally, rearranging electrons.
[13:54] herman Bergson: that will be the subject of the next lectures as we will dig into neurobliological issues then
[13:54] BALDUR Joubert: we cannot take the brain as something apart from everything else.. its devellopment is unthinkable without the social component..
[13:54] Simargl Talaj: social component = other brains.
[13:55] herman Bergson: that has already been showing the lectures on the supersense Baldur
[13:55] BALDUR Joubert: smile . rigt
[13:55] BALDUR Joubert: suoeersense?
[13:55] herman Bergson: I think you now have a good idea of what lies ahead of us....:-)
[13:55] BALDUR Joubert: that i can see ghosts ?
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: aah
[13:55] AristotleVon Doobie: :))
[13:56] Qwark Allen: heheeh baldur ---> you`ll come for sure to next class
[13:56] AristotleVon Doobie: deja vu
[13:56] herman Bergson: So, may I thank you all for you participation
[13:56] BALDUR Joubert: or are you talking about bats sonar system.. suoersens e for us?
[13:56] herman Bergson: Oh one sad message....
[13:56] Qwark Allen: check at blog previous class, you`ll understand better what we are talking about ^^
[13:56] Simargl Talaj: Thank you Herman. Thanks for preparing the visual aids too.
[13:56] herman Bergson: Next thursday I wont be able to be here....
[13:56] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: ah we get a vacation
[13:57] Qwark Allen: ehhehe
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝
[13:57] herman Bergson: I have to burry a dear friend in RL who passed away at the age of 57....
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: you mean the 11??
[13:57] Qwark Allen: ohh
[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: on gosh
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: aaaw
[13:57] Simargl Talaj: I am very sorry to hear it Herman.
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: o no :((
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: hmmmm, condolences Herman
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: my condolences herman
[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: ys
[13:57] Rodney Handrick: wow...my condolences
[13:57] Simargl Talaj: Very hard.
[13:57] herman Bergson: Yes..it caused a shock to all of us
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: thats to bad
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: :(
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: I am sure
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: i can imagine
[13:57] herman Bergson: SO I hope to see you all next Tuesday
[13:57] Qwark Allen: terrible
[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: ok
[[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: ok i will be
[13:58] Simargl Talaj: Thank you Herman.
[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed and thank you all
[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:58] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:58] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: thanks herman
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: was interesting as always
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:58] abraxa Qork: me too if abra drags me hehee
[13:58] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, take care and Thanks for the wonderful lecture, Professor
[13:58] Beertje Beaumont: my condolences Herman
[13:58] BALDUR Joubert: take care..:)
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: sure I will
[13:58] abraxa Qork: wooohooo
[13:58] herman Bergson: thanks Beertje
[13:59] herman Bergson: RL still exists....