341: The Mystery of the Brain Resumed

Welcome everyone (^_^)
It is good to see you here again. In a way this is a festive moment, for this is the 5th year, that I begin my series of lectures on the first of September.

I have done a number of projects, but the present one, still "The Mystery of the Brain", is my most cherished one, because it is the direct follow up of the thesis I defended in 1977 at the university.

In the 80s an avalanche of new information and scientific knowledge about the brain and consequently the mind has come down over us.

September 2010 I began with the project "The Mystery of the Brain" and for pragmatic reasons I told you, that we wouldn't discuss metaphysics for a while but assume a materialist point of view.

This fitted in perfectly well with the number of subjects, which we have discussed so far. We explored, what Bruce M. Hood named our "Supersense" and its function.

We traveled through many examples of the functioning of the brain in relation to what we believe is real. We learnt about fMRI scans of the brain. Ran into a highly questionable use of it, to check whether somebody was telling the truth of not.

We studied the brain machine and how it is driven by a set of basic emotions which we to a high extend share with other mammals on this earth.

But the most important what you can have learnt is, that our notion of the human being has gone through a number of fundamental paradigmatic changes during the past 500 years.

Time and again we had to answer the question for the meaning of man, the meaning of our existence in a different way due to paradigmatic shifts.

Galileo Galilei removed us around 1610 from the center of the universe. Charles Darwin showed in 1859 that we are a part of nature, not above nature.

Around 1900 Sigmund Freud made clear to us that we are not only consciousness, but that there also exists an influential subconsciousness.

In 1953, James D. Watson and Francis Crick suggested what is now accepted as the first correct double-helix model of DNA structure in the journal Nature.

And all of a sudden life in its qualities became something , which can be manipulated and for instance genetically changed or as some say, improved.

In the past year I have demonstrated to you that now again we are confronted with a fundamental paradigmatic shift regarding the answer of our basic question for the meaning of life.

Who still believes that man is primarily the product of his rational thinking, is wrong. Subconsciously, we take numerous decisions. The idea that we are the rationally calculating person, who decides based on free will, is taken from us.

Many contemporary psychologist, neuroscientist are now convinced that the homo sapiens mainly is a bag of primary emotions, which are the real, often subconscious drive behind his actions.

In relation to the almost 2 million years of our evolution as homo sapiens in a relatively short time of hardly 500 years we moved from the center of the universe and the stewards of creation to being a sometimes even harmful part of the ecosystem of this planet.

Actually not a bad achievement to put us in our right place in relatively such a short time. Wow…"right place" ???? That really is a big assumption !!!

Yes, that will be our next target. What to do with this avalanche of neurobiological data, with the thesis "We are our brain". Till today we have kept the real philosophical questions in the background.

It was a pragmatic choice, so that I could present to you all these new data about the brain / mind which had emerged since the 80s. But that is over now. We have heard enough.

The next series of lectures will focus on our main theme: the philosophy of mind. All that science looks so convincing and has an enormous impact on our ideas about the meaning of life.

But is it philosophically all that simple and straightforward. Will it be the neuroscientists, who tell us that philosophy (of Mind) is dead? I don't think so….

The Discussion
[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: The floor is yours
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very good
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: interesting
[13:28] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:28] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:28] herman Bergson: thank you....
[13:29] Adriana Jinn: thank you herman
[13:29] herman Bergson: But the show still has to begin now..:-)
[13:29] Adriana Jinn: real interesting herman
[13:29] herman Bergson: Now we go for the real thing!
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:29] Adriana Jinn: yes
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: can be interesting
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: the things before was for sure
[13:29] herman Bergson: Oh yes Bejiita...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: )
[13:29] Qwark Allen: getting more interesting even
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: a
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i actually heard a neurobiologist say that he believes that the current developments in internet tech is actually changing the shape of the brain... allowing a better ability to focus and change from one thing to another in the mind more quickly
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry! for 2 lines
[13:30] Doodus Moose: once i see how a special effect is done in the movies, it seems less "magic" - i hope this won't be the same for our minds
[13:30] herman Bergson smiles
[13:30] herman Bergson: You have that privilege Gemma !
[13:30] Adriana Jinn: smiles doodus
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:31] herman Bergson: But what the man said is bull in my opinion :-)
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
[13:31] herman Bergson: No..Dooodus...
[13:31] herman Bergson: I think that after all the neuro science info....
[13:31] herman Bergson: philosophy will show you that the mind is more magic than science can tell!
[13:32] Doodus Moose:
[13:32] Doodus Moose: i'll continue to insist i'm worth more than the sum of my parts :-)
[13:32] herman Bergson: that is the whole point Doodus!!!!!
[13:33] herman Bergson: You are more than the sum of your neurons...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Just be patient...
[13:33] herman Bergson: When we try to understand consciousness in relation to the brain...
[13:34] herman Bergson: such a tough problem.. !
[13:34] Qwark Allen: we`ll get there
[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Qwark..
[13:34] herman Bergson: I'l start at the beginning...
[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not sure the more we learn the more questions we seem to have
[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is no end
[13:35] Qwark Allen: that is a good sign always
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:35] Adriana Jinn: smiles
[13:35] herman Bergson: No Gemma..if there were, we would be just machines...
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:35] herman Bergson: clockworks.....and maybe orange too then
[13:36] Doodus Moose: the logical conclusion is: we're confronted with a near-infinity of unanswered questions just before death :-)
[13:36] Doodus Moose: ... then we get the answer to everything :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Doodus
[13:37] herman Bergson: well after death...I'd prefer to be just dead...
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:37] Adriana Jinn: smiles
[13:37] Doodus Moose: dead? seems like such a waste of time
[13:37] herman Bergson: no ado about answers and questions plz :-)
[13:37] herman Bergson: a waste of time????
[13:38] herman Bergson: Just imagine that after death you have to live for eternity...!!!!!
[13:38] herman Bergson: thta would drive me mad...!
[13:38] oola Neruda: all men are mortal
[13:38] Doodus Moose: i'm looking forwards to my own personal "millenium falcon"
[13:38] Alaya Kumaki: well, if its not eternity it might be as here
[13:38] herman Bergson: You got it oola...Simone de Beauvoir!
[13:38] oola Neruda: nods
[13:38] Adriana Jinn: but perhaps have to learn lots of thing after ?
[13:38] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): sorry i have to go..thank you Herman
[13:39] herman Bergson: take care Beertje ^_^
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you soon
[13:39] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:39] Doodus Moose: take care, Gemma
[13:39] Adriana Jinn: bye bye beerje
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: cberg
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not me .. beertje
[13:40] herman Bergson: well...
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye, Bejiiita :-)
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hugs
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!
[13:40] Qwark Allen: ehehhehe
[13:40] herman Bergson: I think we are ready for phase 2 then!
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hm yes
[13:40] Adriana Jinn: yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: HEy..Itsme is here too!!!!
[13:41] Qwark Allen: ㋡ ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Helloooooo! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:41] Qwark Allen: Hey! ITSME
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: lol
[13:41] herman Bergson: hey man..where have you been...
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: funny name,:))
[13:41] oola Neruda: hey Itsme
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: hi^^
[13:41] Adriana Jinn: hi
[13:41] itsme Frederix: I've been existing
[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum accepted your inventory offer.
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: h Itsme
[13:41] Alaya Kumaki: do you live at itsmeland?
[13:41] itsme Frederix: hi all
[13:41] itsme Frederix: glad to see you, but please continue
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hey!!! itsyou!!! good to see you!!
[13:42] herman Bergson: well...I think we dealt with all problems of the world now Itsme..:-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: We are done
[13:42] herman Bergson: all is well :-)
[13:43] itsme Frederix: so I came in the right time
[13:43] Doodus Moose: time to get all smoky......byeeee!!!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: unless you still have a question, of course ^_^
[13:43] itsme Frederix: I would not dare
[13:43] herman Bergson: good!
[13:43] Alaya Kumaki: i do have one, only, can i havea copy paste of yur today s text?
[13:43] herman Bergson: Then I thank you all for your participation ...^_^
[13:43] Alaya Kumaki: because i arrive late
[13:44] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: Hooo!!!
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: Hoooo!
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it will all be in the blog
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i must go :-(((( tysm! herman and class!! see u tuesday
[13:44] Qwark Allen: looking foward for tuesday
[13:44] herman Bergson: Have a nice weekend you all:-)
[13:44] Qwark Allen: :-)))
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: bye bye and thank so much
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you too
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: this was nice for sure
[13:44] herman Bergson: See you all next Tuesday...
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: same to you herman
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: euntil next time cu ㋡
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye+ all
[13:44] herman Bergson: And Gemma..you are excuses when being late
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: bye bye for now
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum:
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: .,¡i|¹i¡¡i¹|i¡,. .,¡i|¹i¡¡i¹|i¡,.
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: `'¹li¡|¡|¡il¹'` `'¹li¡|¡|¡il¹'`
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum:
[13:44] Adriana Jinn: have a nice end of evening
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:46] herman Bergson: lol...Adriana...
[13:47] herman Bergson: A pitty you missed the lecture Itsme..

318: The Brain, Surprise and already a little Disgust

Behind me you see the facial expression, which is, I guess, familiar to you. Eyes wide open, eyebrows up. In other words complete surprise about what he sees.

This time we are dealing with a simple and pleasant basic emotion: an orchestra conductor, which steers all our actions into one direction:

we need here and now immediate information about our environment, because we are confronted with something unfamiliar and odd. So, eyes wide open and trying to get a good look at it.

We are surprised about something. An emotion, which is hard to study in an experimental laboratory environment and too innocent as an emotion to spend much research effort on.

Yet it is an emotion, which is innate. Babies already are able to be surprised about what they see.

From a philosophical point of view the emotion is also interesting, because all philosophical questions originate from marvel: huh… how can that be? Where does that come from? What is real? And so on.

Often our surprise is accompanied by physiological reactions like taking a deep breath, feeling a shiver. This has lead to the presumption, that there is only a thin line between surprise and fear.

It is indeed a fact, that when the surprising element looks threatening and therefor dangerous, our surprise changes into fear in a split second. A chain of reactions gratefully exploited by horror movies.

But in general surprise is a positive emotion. We love presents. We love new things and above all we are so curious.

From an evolutionary point of view it is understandable, that such a quality, to feel pleased when confronted with new things, is a nice drive to be a curious and exploring individual.

However, it not always gives us a positive feeling. There is that relation between surprise and disbelief: you open the envelope and read the invoice for repairs on your car (What ???!!!!) , or your doctor tells you, that you have only three months to live (No !!!!???).

A simple emotion, but in general focused on getting new information about the subject we are surprised about.

A completely opposite emotion, which stimulates us to get as far away as possible from what we see or smell is disgust.

This , however, is a rather peculiar basic emotion. People all over the world can have this emotion, but as far as we know, you only find this emotion in the repertoire of the homo sapiens.

This could mean that evolutionary this is a rather "young" emotion. Besides that, this emotion is loaded with cultural influences, which makes it hard to identify its function in evolution.

In The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals, Charles Darwin wrote that disgust refers to something revolting.

Disgust is experienced primarily in relation to the sense of taste (either perceived or imagined), and secondarily to anything which causes a similar feeling by sense of smell, touch, or vision.

Paul Ekman (born February 15, 1934) is a psychologist who has been a pioneer in the study of emotions and their relation to facial expressions. ("Emotions in the Human Face", 1982).

He showed that contrary to the belief of some anthropologists including Margaret Mead, facial expressions of emotion are not culturally determined, but universal across human cultures and thus biological in origin.

Expressions he found to be universal included those indicating anger, disgust, fear, joy, sadness, and surprise. And these are the basic emotions we are discussing here, because they are all generated by the brain.

Be prepared for the next lecture, because it will be a disgusting one.



The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you... :-)
[13:20] Rentboy Benoir: thank you
[13:20] herman Bergson: You had some remarks....I noticed...
[13:21] herman Bergson: curiosity...innate or learned....
[13:21] Rentboy Benoir: so disgust is a conditioned response?
[13:21] Clerisse Beeswing: learned response
[13:21] Athena John: I don't think so. It too is innate. We re repulsed by that which we find, well repulsive
[13:21] herman Bergson: It would be if it were only learned behavior....
[13:21] Rentboy Benoir: hmmmm
[13:22] Rentboy Benoir: the reason i ask is because as i grow older the less things i find disgusting
[13:22] Athena John: I would say SOME of it is. We LEARN to be disgusted by certain crimes for example
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well next lecture we'll go into detail, but disgust is partly an innate behavior
[13:22] Mick Nerido: I thought the link between surpise and fear is, well, surpising
[13:23] Rentboy Benoir: i think that might have to do with our basal instincts
[13:23] herman Bergson: Well it was Ekman who pointed at the possible relation Mick
[13:23] Rentboy Benoir: l fight in this case
[13:24] Rentboy Benoir: if a large predator stalking you jumps out, !) you're surprised 2) fear 3)run!!!!
[13:24] Mick Nerido: The facial expression is close
[13:24] herman Bergson: Bodily reactions look a little similar when you see something new...nice or threatening...
[13:24] herman Bergson: yes..you open your eyes wide for instance...
[13:25] Athena John: But Rentboy, in your example, the fear can be trained to be repressed or channeled.
[13:25] herman Bergson: yes Rentboy...something like that....
[13:25] Athena John: Soldiers are trained to repress fear
[13:25] Mick Nerido: Horror movies let us experience fear in a safe place
[13:25] herman Bergson: and if I am not mistaken there are also predators that surprise their victims by special behavior or colors to fool them
[13:26] Rentboy Benoir: i agree, but i was talking about something left over from our basal instincts when we were not as evolved yet
[13:26] Rentboy Benoir: the reaction
[13:26] Rentboy Benoir: the expression
[13:26] Rentboy Benoir: its prolly because of that
[13:26] Rentboy Benoir: you open your eyes to get a better look
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes..there is a similarity...
[13:27] Rentboy Benoir: i bet hearing improves a little too
[13:27] Rentboy Benoir: then you a certain whether its a threat
[13:27] Rentboy Benoir: and then you run for your life
[13:27] Rentboy Benoir: if it is
[13:27] Rentboy Benoir: idk
[13:27] herman Bergson: and you pray that your are fast enough ^_^
[13:27] Rentboy Benoir: lol
[13:27] Rentboy Benoir: hmmm
[13:28] Rentboy Benoir: interesting stuff
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Peditors are more curious than vegetarian animals
[13:28] Rentboy Benoir: i think maybe
[13:28] Rentboy Benoir: the expression the child has is a result of that
[13:28] herman Bergson: I don't know...
[13:28] Rentboy Benoir: obviously its not fear
[13:28] Rentboy Benoir: but it is new
[13:28] herman Bergson: but I once saw a documentary about taming a wild horse,,,
[13:29] Athena John: Is there a gender difference in this part of the brain: surprise/fear?
[13:29] Rentboy Benoir: and i think that new = bad in the cave man era
[13:29] herman Bergson: took only 5 hours , because the animal was curious...
[13:29] Rentboy Benoir: unlikely
[13:29] Rentboy Benoir: emotions are not gender determined
[13:29] Rentboy Benoir: i think
[13:29] herman Bergson: the person played with the curiosity of the wild horse....
[13:29] Athena John: But their bain LOCATION vary by gender
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well Rentboy...
[13:30] Athena John: *brain
[13:30] herman Bergson: research has shown that women and children are more sensible to disgust than men
[13:30] Rentboy Benoir: hmmm
[13:30] Rentboy Benoir: yes
[13:31] Rentboy Benoir: but i still think these are conditioned responses
[13:31] Athena John: We're more sensible ;)
[13:31] Rentboy Benoir: learned
[13:31] Rentboy Benoir: and women are meant to be more disgusted by things than men
[13:31] Rentboy Benoir: its cultural
[13:31] Rentboy Benoir: yet
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes...that is quite well possible....
[13:31] Rentboy Benoir: certain cultures , you'll find hardier women than men
[13:31] herman Bergson: there is a lot of cultural influence with respect to disgust....
[13:31] Athena John: How isthis cultural?
[13:32] Athena John: and why can't I type? lol
[13:32] Rentboy Benoir: amazons
[13:32] Rentboy Benoir: they were tough cookies
[13:32] Rentboy Benoir: a myth maybe
[13:32] Rentboy Benoir: im not sure
[13:32] Rentboy Benoir: lol
[13:32] herman Bergson: Well Xenia was ^_^
[13:32] Athena John: Fighting women exist. :)
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Women bodybuilders
[13:33] Rentboy Benoir: how is it cultural? well, in the west women are conditioned to be more senstive to disgusting things than men
[13:33] Rentboy Benoir: from birth
[13:33] Athena John: Soviet women fought hard in World War 2
[13:33] herman Bergson: As you see...surprise as a basic emotion isnt that complicated....
[13:33] Rentboy Benoir: its what make you all sensitive and all of that good stuff
[13:33] Rentboy Benoir: yeah
[13:33] Rentboy Benoir: russian women are tough
[13:34] Mick Nerido: Comedy is always a surpise like when you laugh at a joke
[13:34] Athena John: As are Japanese, who even now fight for survival
[13:34] herman Bergson: I dont think that the toughness of women is related to either surprise of disgust...
[13:34] Rentboy Benoir: no
[13:34] herman Bergson: although some men find tough women disgusting...especially the bodybuilder types
[13:35] Athena John: Or the warrior types
[13:35] Doodus Moose: (threatening?)
[13:35] herman Bergson: But there you see the influence of culture
[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: some men do love a girlly girl
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Clerisse :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: More than tough types
[13:36] Rentboy Benoir: what i meant was that i think that , lets say during war time, what may have seemed disgsting becomes a necessity(spell check) like maybe eating rotten produce, which in turn would prolly make them less disgusted with eating something off
[13:36] Rentboy Benoir: in the future
[13:36] herman Bergson: But I don't think that is a matter of disgust, but just personal preferences
[13:36] Athena John: Good point
[13:36] Mick Nerido: digust in taste can save you from eating poison food
[13:36] Clerisse Beeswing: real life I am in between girlly girl and tough..so they must get over it
[13:37] Rentboy Benoir: they get used to it
[13:37] Clerisse Beeswing: when it comes to food..you ever watch andrew zimmerman the guy who easts almost everything
[13:37] Rentboy Benoir: im no longer disgusted by a lot of things
[13:37] Rentboy Benoir: age also plays a role
[13:37] Mick Nerido: I love that show
[13:37] herman Bergson: oh my.....that must be a disgusting sight Clerisse
[13:38] Clerisse Beeswing: he easts bugs and everything
[13:38] Mick Nerido: An acured taste
[13:38] Rentboy Benoir: oh i could eat that
[13:38] Mick Nerido: aquired
[13:38] Clerisse Beeswing: or is he just curious
[13:38] herman Bergson: I'll discuss the basics of disgust in the next lecture....maybe Mr. Zimmerman offers a good example
[13:38] Rentboy Benoir: not for fun though
[13:38] Doodus Moose: MIck - check the local bazaar in China
[13:38] herman Bergson: Eating bugs is just a cultural issue....
[13:39] Rentboy Benoir: i was once in a meat market in kashmir, that was pretty grosss
[13:39] herman Bergson: so it is easy to learn to eat bugs
[13:39] Rentboy Benoir: yes
[13:39] Doodus Moose: precisely
[13:39] Rentboy Benoir: yes
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: honey ants taste pretty good.
[13:39] herman Bergson: wel....easy.....for some people
[13:39] herman Bergson: For instance Ciska, yes....
[13:39] Clerisse Beeswing: out of survival...well I might have to eat something I would never consider
[13:40] herman Bergson: I have seen that once.....these ants are big bubbles of honey
[13:40] Athena John: Yes in i many cultures, like mine, a delicacy
[13:40] Mick Nerido: Any meat is disgusting to a vegetarian
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well the examples exist Clerisse....canibalism for instance
[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: well I hope I never have to eat a human in order to survive..not just yet
[13:41] Rentboy Benoir: you see that wouldn't bother me
[13:41] Rentboy Benoir: if they're dead
[13:41] Mick Nerido: Soilent green
[13:41] Rentboy Benoir: its just meat
[13:41] herman Bergson: Not my favorite food either Clerisse ^_^
[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: lol what a old movie
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Mick...good movie!
[13:42] Mick Nerido: Not good eating lol
[13:42] Rentboy Benoir: apparently human fingers are the tastiest bits
[13:42] Rentboy Benoir: if you ever find yourself in that situation take dibs on the fingers
[13:42] Mick Nerido: People are supposed to taste like pork
[13:42] herman Bergson: You think so Rentboy?
[13:42] Clerisse Beeswing: now don't tell me how you cook them..that would disgust me
[13:42] Athena John: there is not much meat on the fingers
[13:43] herman Bergson: Well Mick some humans behave like pigs indeed..so well possible indeed
[13:43] Rentboy Benoir: because they are used the most, also its what a group of cannibals said when they were asked by an anthrop.
[13:44] Mick Nerido: Remember Michael Rockafeller?
[13:44] Doodus Moose: oh
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well....I would suggest to look forward to the next lecture and a disgusting discussion afterwards...^_^
[13:44] Rentboy Benoir: ok
[13:44] Rentboy Benoir: lol
[13:44] Mick Nerido: Thanks
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: *smiles* - thank you Professor :)
[13:45] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your surprising contribution to this discussion...:-)
[13:45] Rentboy Benoir: id like to see if im still disgusted by anything
[13:45] herman Bergson: Oh you will be rentboy....easily even...
[13:45] Rentboy Benoir: thank you Herman
[13:45] Clerisse Beeswing: thank you professor..interesting enough
[13:45] Athena John: I'm sure you are. It just must be found
[13:45] Rentboy Benoir: ive seen a lot of things
[13:45] herman Bergson: Not so difficult Athena ^_^
[13:45] Rentboy Benoir: im pretty desensitized
13:46] BALDUR Joubert: i need a old jenever now to digest all your stuff
[13:46] herman Bergson: Cool...
[13:46] Rentboy Benoir: not a good thing btw
[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all...
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: ♥ Thank You!! ♥
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: ...DANKE :)))
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: .•:*¨☆¨*:• DANKESCHÖN .•:*¨☆¨*:•
[13:47] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:47] Qwark Allen: just got in time
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Qwark :-)
[13:47] Qwark Allen: was interesting as allways
[13:47] Qwark Allen: .-)))
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: ______ ()*"*()___
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: _____("(~¸¸~)")___
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: Müde bin ich,geh zur Ruh,
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: mache meine Augen zu.
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: Erst das Rechte,dann das Linke,
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: Gute Nacht und winke winke
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: Nacht Anja - träum gut
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: Tschüss machs gut bis zum nächsten Mal
[13:47] Anja Tigerfish: bye
[13:48] herman Bergson: Nacht Anja ^_^
[13:48] Qwark Allen: see you thursday
[13:48] Anja Tigerfish: Namarie
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: bye qwark
[13:48] Anja Tigerfish: Have all safe paths and fair winds and honey sweet dreams
[13:48] Doodus Moose: Bless you all, as i am blessed by you all
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy your evening doodus
[13:48] herman Bergson: bless you Doodus
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: bye herman :)
[13:49] herman Bergson: Bye
[13:50] herman Bergson: Well..been a long time no see Athena ^_^
[13:51] Athena John: Yes, I haven't had time to come in world.
[13:51] herman Bergson: I understand..

285: The Brain ... The fifth Revolution

When you engage in the philosophical debate about the mind, it is impossible confine the debate to a philosophical discourse only. Too many other disciplines are involved too, like anthropology, biology, cognitive psychology, neurobiology.

The mind is no longer the private playground of philosophers. In my former lectures I referred to a Dutch publication by Dick Swaab, "We are our Brain". It is a bestseller at the moment. In other words, the brain is a hot issue these days.

The neurologist , Vilyanur Ramachandran, of the University of California in San Diego called it 'the Fifth Revolution". The latest in a series of scientific warp jumps, which toppled world views and caused great spiritual and social changes.

The first one occurred in the 16th century. Copernicus was the great revolutionary then, who proved that the earth was not the center of the universe but just a planet rotating around the sun.

The universe was God's creation and as everybody then believed, the earth was the center of this creation….
No longer and this gave rise to all kinds of fundamental questions.

The second revolution took place in the 19th century, when Charles Darwin showed that all living organisms are descended from basic organisms, which then had evolved in millions of directions by adapting themselves to a constantly changing environment.

The third shock came when Sigmund Freud introduced the mind, the psyche, as an objective entity that could be studied. And even more shocking was, that he showed that a lot of our actions aren't controlled at all by our ratio. There appeared to be something like the subconscious.


Half a century ago the fourth revolution took place. By discovering the structure of heredity James Watson and Francis Crick transformed biology into a science for engineers.

Genetic engineering is a common thing today. In our lectures on supersense we also observed that genetic engineering can get into conflict with our supersense ideas about life. Is it good or bad all this meddling with genes?

Just dig into the subject of "haplogroups". By historic DNA analysis we have discovered how mankind spread over the earth, where its cradle stood and that the Aryan race for instance is only a fiction.

What is the fifth revolution? Look at the picture named "The Brainmap". As we have unraveled the human genome, we would also be able to map the entire human brain.

Just think about this question: What will happen to the human mind if we have mapped every braincell and its function and every connection between them?

How will it affect our idea about being an individual person, a Self, an Identity. When we know and understand the function of every braincell, could we change personality whenever we like for instance.

Everything that makes us human finds its origin in brain tissue. Do we get reduced to chemical processes, electric pulses and processes that blindly follow the laws of nature?

Religion then is called a normal neurological phenomenon, moral choices are no longer the expression of spiritual development and integrity of the soul,

but can partly be explained as the result of automatic processes, which emerged from a blind and amoral evolution.
How are we going to explain consciousness……?

The fifth revolutions seems to lead us to a neurocentrism, a way of thinking which locates the essence of being human in the brain and where the brain tells you who you are.

I made the Evolution map to give you an impression of where we stand from a historical point of view. Evolution used almost 5 million years to toy with the Hominids (humans and great apes) and their brain.

New models emerged and disappeared again. Brain volume increased and again new models on the market…… eventually the Neaderthals and Homo sapiens.

And as you see, we are only a very young group of hominids in this millions of years lasting evolutionary process. We like to think, that we are the final outcome of evolution, but what about the next million years?

No philosopher can ignore these developments. Then, let us go and see what this fifth revolution will mean for our philosophical discourse on the Mind.


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:25] herman Bergson: What was your remark Qwark?
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: it is amazing how it has changed from the first man
[13:25] Qwark Allen: the bone that is making the direction, you ask
[13:25] Simargl Talaj: herman Bergson: Everything that makes us human finds its origin in brain tissue. Do we get reduced to chemical processes, electric pulses and processes that blindly follow the laws of nature? My answer:We can mourn: alas, there is nothing sublime, we are just chemicals. Or we can affirm: marvelous, chemistry does these things!
[13:25] Qwark Allen: it`s the sphenoid
[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: what has exhanged?
[13:25] Qwark Allen: http://www.lynwillmott.com.au/sphenoid-bone/
[13:25] Simargl Talaj: Consciousness is an activity. Mind is what brain does. Brain and mind are dancer and the dance.
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: the brain even the size and shape
[13:26] Qwark Allen: you can see where evolution is getting us, by understanding the evolution of sphenoid
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:26] Abraxas Nagy: mmmm I am no Darwinist
[13:26] Gemma Cleanslate: you have a link?? q?
[13:26] Qwark Allen: http://www.lynwillmott.com.au/sphenoid-bone/
[13:26] Qwark Allen: i saw several documents about it
[13:26] Simargl Talaj: The dance survives, even when we know the choreogrpaher.
[13:27] Simargl Talaj: Every human experience that led us to belief in god etcetera still exists. Whatever was valuable is still valuable. Whatever is sacred is still sacred, if natural.
[13:27] herman Bergson: I'll check it out Qwark..
[13:27] Gemma Cleanslate: I will read that later
[13:27] Qwark Allen: ok
[13:27] Qwark Allen: you`ll find it very interesting
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: aa have to check it out then
[13:27] herman Bergson: Great!
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: my brain and me: the ultimate master/slave? Frightening
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is the fundamental problem Aristotle….
[13:28] Simargl Talaj: Qwark there's research suggesting genes for weaker jaw muslce relieved pressure on sagital crest that suppresses skull expansion.
[13:28] herman Bergson: my brain and me, while me is the brain....
[13:28] herman Bergson: that is what philosophers fight about ^_^
[13:28] Simargl Talaj: Master, slave? If you own yourself there is neither.
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: master-slave- these are terms used in social relationships..
[13:29] herman Bergson: It is a metaphore yes
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: I am not convinced of course....I am master of my brain to the extent of my operative skills
[13:29] Simargl Talaj: What do you mean, Ari, please?
[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: well.. aren't we slaves of your body' ? ask Dawkins
[13:30] herman Bergson: But a fundamental problem is that I can think about myself....where myself is semantically not identical with the "I" who is thinking
[13:30] Simargl Talaj: Who is this "I" of which you speak? That is not itself a brain?
[13:30] herman Bergson: we'll get to that problem sooner or later
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: I suspect we are much more than cells
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes simargl...it is the homunculus problem...
[13:31] herman Bergson: There is a little man in my head that controls me, that is the "I"
[13:31] Simargl Talaj: I wish I could read more than two lines of Ari at once :)
[13:31] herman Bergson: but the problem is that the homunculus has a head with a brain in it too and so on
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: does the brain project itself into our self awareness?
[13:32] herman Bergson: the brain generates the self awareness
[13:32] Simargl Talaj: little fleas have lesser fleas/ upon their backs, that bite 'em/ and lesser fleas have lesser fleas/ and so, ad infinitum.
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: no more free will then
[13:32] herman Bergson: Here you already touch on a major issue...
[13:33] Simargl Talaj: I see it as entirely a semantic problem, not one of real operation.
[13:33] herman Bergson: we can do all kinds of physiological statements about the brain....
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: th locatioin of self awareness has been discovered?
[13:34] herman Bergson: and indeed simargl ..some philosophers regard words like mind, self , self awareness as a semantical problem
[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: and we can do all kinds of supernatural statements too
[13:34] herman Bergson: In a way yes, Aristotle...
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: where is the you that is looking out of you eyes right now?
[13:35] Simargl Talaj: Aristotle much consciousness is the sum effect of different centers working together. A stream of reports from different offices in the building.
[13:35] herman Bergson: I think I'll go into that issue soon, but a person can change into a complete different Self because of brain damage
[13:35] Simargl Talaj: Herman --- yes.
[13:35] Simargl Talaj: we are organic.
[13:35] herman Bergson: In fact Alzheimer is an example of that....
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: and self determination originates where?
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: ari.. by looking at the other
[13:36] herman Bergson: Because of such observations we will encounter great difficulties with concepts as the Self , personal Identity and consciousness
[13:36] herman Bergson: As I told you in the very beginning....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Different from a project on 100 philosophers, which is known ground for me, this project is a quest for me...
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: it is a mysterious journey for sure
[13:37] Simargl Talaj: Herman, then why is it a philosophical quest at all, since the answers lie in studies of the organic?
[13:38] herman Bergson: I have no idea (well global ideas yes) what lies ahead of us...where we will arrive at
[13:38] Simargl Talaj: No epistemology anymore -- just cognitive neurobiology, education psychology.
[13:39] herman Bergson: The philosophical part is in the fact that we can talk about ourselves, describe ourselves
[13:39] Simargl Talaj: Why look for a ball in center field after you've seen it fly out toward first base?
[13:39] Qwark Allen: according to the sphenoid, we`ll be anatomically similar to the "grey aliens", with expanded minds
[13:39] herman Bergson: and in the fact that neurobiology answers certain questions but certainly not all
[13:39] Simargl Talaj: What is left for philosophers , then?
[13:39] Qwark Allen: witch is very curios thing
[13:40] herman Bergson: That is our question Simargl....
[13:40] herman Bergson: to give a "simple: example......
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: as long as thought exists, there will be philosophers
[13:40] BALDUR Joubert: plenty simargl.. just as there was plenty left after kopernicus
[13:40] herman Bergson: Do we have a free will.......?
[13:40] Simargl Talaj: or as long as endowed chairs exist anyhow :)
[13:41] abraxa Qork: wb gemma ㋡
[13:41] herman Bergson: If everything is just chemical processes, etc...then all is deterministic…according to the rules of nature
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: wb gemma
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:41] herman Bergson: But we still believe that we are not automatons....that we decide ourselves
[13:42] herman Bergson: That the decision in not the outcome of pre-programmed chemical brain processes
[13:42] Simargl Talaj: So you can create paradigms to describe it, metaphors, models, that are not merely descriptions of organic and chemical processes.
[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: culture has any role in that?
[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: what we decide'
[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: ?¨
[13:43] herman Bergson: One of the questions amy be whether our descriptions of the mind are just metaphors or not
[13:43] Simargl Talaj: Herman why is it so hard to accept that we are both the product of natural causes, and also the creators of more causes? I don't see the conflict.
[13:43] Simargl Talaj: Looks just like a cascade reaction in chemistry.
[13:43] herman Bergson: There you go.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: We are the result of natural causes....AND CREATOR of causes...
[13:44] herman Bergson: that creator is transcending the natural causes in this statement
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aah
[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: like a volcano in indonesia
[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: I believe that I, my mind, issues direction to my brain, and it responds within the realm of natural law as to success or failure or those commands
[13:44] herman Bergson: someone/something else than the result of natural causes
[13:45] Simargl Talaj: " herman Bergson: But we still believe that we are not automatons....that we decide ourselves" ....stated as if the two were opposed, mutually exclusive. They do not seem so to me. Nature works like that all the time.
[13:45] herman Bergson: But Aristotle....were does your mind come from????
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, where is it?
[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: culture'
[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: ?
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: I can not hold it to show
[13:46] Simargl Talaj: CUlture is also a product of minds:)
[13:46] Simargl Talaj: The fact that culture is a product of minds and minds are a product of culture are not opposites. No paradox.
[13:46] BALDUR Joubert: culture is a product of the minds.. in history
[13:46] herman Bergson: My statements are no definite answers or observations Simargl, they are considerations, thoughts, attempts
[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: no paradox.. but a basis..
[13:47] herman Bergson: As you see, in no time things are getting pretty complex here
[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: we can't talk about the mind without talking about the "programming"
[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: is it that we are sop grounded in our physical perceptions that we are blinded to the truth?
[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: as usual the complex part lol'
[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: brain-yes.. chemical.physical..
[13:48] herman Bergson: Ok.....
[13:48] Simargl Talaj: I do not agree that being a creator of causes is to transcend natural causes. It is one set of causes and effects generationg another set of causes and effects, as an outcome of the previous set, not in contradiction of it.
[13:49] herman Bergson: the trend of today is that neurobiology is gonna answer a lot , maybe all, questions that puzzled philosophers
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: if the mind truly is separate fromthe brain, it would be in the natural order
[13:50] herman Bergson: if you allow me to say so...simplified but we have books on the shelves now that say WE ARE OUR BRAIN
[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: well..we have a brain.. just like arms and legs..
[13:51] BALDUR Joubert: doesn't answer the philosophical question what we are
[13:51] herman Bergson: I think our project is to answer the question if the statement WE ARE OUR BRAIN really answers all our philosophical questions about ourself, about human existence, about ethics and so on
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Baldus….We have a brain or we are a brain........
[13:52] herman Bergson: just that simple linguistic difference contains a lot of questions and implications
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: I need some of those imbedded electrodes so I could behave better, just stir it up a bit
[13:52] BALDUR Joubert: we have.. like many other living species
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:53] Simargl Talaj: We experience responsibility and agency. The source of these in phyysics does not alter the fact that we experience them
[13:53] Simargl Talaj: and must respond to them.
[13:53] herman Bergson: No Simargl…so what is the relation between what happens physicaly and what we experience....
[13:54] Simargl Talaj: I cannot solve a moral problem by rearranging some electrons with tweezers. I use the means available to me. They are, incidentally, rearranging electrons.
[13:54] herman Bergson: that will be the subject of the next lectures as we will dig into neurobliological issues then
[13:54] BALDUR Joubert: we cannot take the brain as something apart from everything else.. its devellopment is unthinkable without the social component..
[13:54] Simargl Talaj: social component = other brains.
[13:55] herman Bergson: that has already been showing the lectures on the supersense Baldur
[13:55] BALDUR Joubert: smile . rigt
[13:55] BALDUR Joubert: suoeersense?
[13:55] herman Bergson: I think you now have a good idea of what lies ahead of us....:-)
[13:55] BALDUR Joubert: that i can see ghosts ?
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: aah
[13:55] AristotleVon Doobie: :))
[13:56] Qwark Allen: heheeh baldur ---> you`ll come for sure to next class
[13:56] AristotleVon Doobie: deja vu
[13:56] herman Bergson: So, may I thank you all for you participation
[13:56] BALDUR Joubert: or are you talking about bats sonar system.. suoersens e for us?
[13:56] herman Bergson: Oh one sad message....
[13:56] Qwark Allen: check at blog previous class, you`ll understand better what we are talking about ^^
[13:56] Simargl Talaj: Thank you Herman. Thanks for preparing the visual aids too.
[13:56] herman Bergson: Next thursday I wont be able to be here....
[13:56] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: ah we get a vacation
[13:57] Qwark Allen: ehhehe
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: ╔╗╔═╦╗
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: ║╚╣║║╚╗
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: ╚═╩═╩═╝
[13:57] herman Bergson: I have to burry a dear friend in RL who passed away at the age of 57....
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: you mean the 11??
[13:57] Qwark Allen: ohh
[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: on gosh
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: aaaw
[13:57] Simargl Talaj: I am very sorry to hear it Herman.
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: o no :((
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: hmmmm, condolences Herman
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: my condolences herman
[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: ys
[13:57] Rodney Handrick: wow...my condolences
[13:57] Simargl Talaj: Very hard.
[13:57] herman Bergson: Yes..it caused a shock to all of us
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: thats to bad
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: :(
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: I am sure
[13:57] Abraxas Nagy: i can imagine
[13:57] herman Bergson: SO I hope to see you all next Tuesday
[13:57] Qwark Allen: terrible
[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: ok
[[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: ok i will be
[13:58] Simargl Talaj: Thank you Herman.
[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed and thank you all
[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:58] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:58] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: thanks herman
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: was interesting as always
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:58] abraxa Qork: me too if abra drags me hehee
[13:58] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, take care and Thanks for the wonderful lecture, Professor
[13:58] Beertje Beaumont: my condolences Herman
[13:58] BALDUR Joubert: take care..:)
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: sure I will
[13:58] abraxa Qork: wooohooo
[13:58] herman Bergson: thanks Beertje
[13:59] herman Bergson: RL still exists....