317: The Brain and Rage 2

"Why must running into an obstacle to achieve our goal be accompanied by an emotion we don't like at all: rage? Why did it survive evolution? I'll answer this question in the next lecture." were the last words of my previous lecture.

From an evolutionary point of view this is a useless question. Rage IS unpleasant, like water IS wet. It is an intrinsic feature of it. If it were a pleasant emotion, you might be beaten up and enjoy the rage it evokes in you.

In fact, the unpleasantness of rage is part of the power of the emotion to overcome an obstacle. When some one is blocking your way, it could be seen as an hostile act, even a kind of aggression.

Here you see the positive power of rage. It is communicated by voice, gestures and facial expressions. The effect may be that this kind of threatening behavior makes the opponent retreats.

Thus rage even prevents escalation and further aggression. This is a very common behavior in the animal kingdom. You growl, show your teeth and your opponent might reconsider his intentions.

And it can work both ways. The opponent can show an even stronger rage behavior, which forces the other party to re-evaluate his goals. So, in general threatening often surpreses the aggression on both sides.

From an evolutionary point of view this is not so surprising: aggression easily leads to damage, to wounds. It is a not done. When animals yet start a fight, it often is without inflicting serious physical damage.

Rage is not only a psychological burst of energy, but also a physical phenomenon. The blood is redirected to the muscles. The activity of the intestines is slowed down. You feel stronger, like you feel weaker when in grief or depressed.

In the course of evolution of the Homo Sapiens (that's us :-) this emotion of rage has become more and more adapted to our cognitive ability. In the beginning rage was a way to overcome physical and social obstacles.

From our growing consciousness there emerged an "I" - awareness, a sense of self-esteem: a Self. We won't go into detail here with respect to these concepts. That is for later, because these are philosophically mind boggling issues.

We'll focus on self-esteem, for this was very important for the individual. It defines his place in the group. The brain became steadily better to evaluate itself and the body, in which it resides. The result of the evaluation was important for the social behavior of the individual (as it still is of course).

When this Self is attacked the first response may be shame ("ouch, is that me indeed?") but then it turns into rage ("I don't have to accept that! So, apologize for what you just said or….!")

Rage is an interesting mechanism to remove obstacles for the normal functioning of our Self in the social group. And we also know the extremes: the person with such a big self-esteem, that even the slightest word of criticism will infuriate him.

We are still talking here about the emotion of one individual, but because these basic emotions are shared by every one in the group, they also work on a social level.

The integrity of the group is most important for survival. So, you easily can imagine what will happen when some one from inside or outside the group tries to disrupt this integrity. A collective rage can be the consequence, which mobilizes all energy in the group to eliminate the threat.

Today we are member of all kinds of groups: a family, a sports club, soccer fan club, a town or a country. Just think of soccer fans of club A and the rage they can get into by seeing fans of the opponent's club.

Culture determines on who, when and how we can focus our rage. Typically, culture rejects physical violence - leads to damage - in any case and rather prefers to negotiate, increase verbal abuse or the threatening than physical action.

As I discuss rage here from an evolutionary point of view it is considered as a mechanism that does a good thing, but of course we all know that it also can be a dangerous emotion, which can lead to full-scale escalation of violence and aggression. This happens in all cases, where negotiations didn't work.

One of the enemies of emotions is time, certainly for rage, because it gives the slower part of our brain, the cortex, the time to make a rational analysis of the emotion and subdue the evolutionary older parts of the brain, which are responsible for the instant rage.

The ratio can come up with two suggestions: the first one is to understand that rage is a secondary emotion, beneath it is the real emotion you have to deal with, which is most of the time some kind of frustration or feeling attacked for some reason.

The second one is to change places with the target of your rage. Suppose you are waiting for a parking place….. the other car pulls out and drives off. Then out of the blue another car takes "your" place!

You get out of your car and are furious and you'll gonna tell that other person. However, he hadn't seen you waiting for the place, so, feels completely innocent. Imagine that you were in his position?

What is the meaning of your rage here?


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^
[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours :-)
[13:24] herman Bergson: if you have any question or remark.....
[13:24] Mick Nerido: Not being noticed could be the reason
[13:25] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): well it seems the main emotion underlaying here is I would feel cheated out of my spot...
[13:25] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): therefor, I would be upset...
[13:25] herman Bergson: yo mean the parking example...
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:25] Kyra Neutron: so...be better at parking next time...
[13:25] herman Bergson: just an example...
[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they have identified a gene called the "warrior " gene
[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it seems to cover a lot of this rage
[13:26] herman Bergson: The issue here is rage as a basic emotion and its role in evolution
[13:26] Mick Nerido: we have personal space issues here
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: one thing i can get mad at is stuff that struggles in general when u definitely dont want it to
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): 30 % of men have it
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): less women
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma!
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): saw a shwo about it the other day
[13:26] herman Bergson: Not surprised!
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you can do a test
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for it
[13:27] herman Bergson: cool...
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:27] herman Bergson: do I have the gen?
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but as they ended saying gene or no gene you still have to take personal responsibility to account for your actions
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and work on it
[13:27] herman Bergson smiles
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma ...we cant escape ethics
[13:28] herman Bergson: we have a knowledge of good and bad....!
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but at least those who have it can find out if they have the gene
[13:28] herman Bergson: gene or no gene
[13:29] ShinKenDo: its disconection of reality i might say
[13:29] herman Bergson: lik ethe y also found a gene that makes you more susceptible for religious beliefs
[13:29] herman Bergson: What do yo mean Shin?
[13:30] Mick Nerido: The God gene?
[13:30] herman Bergson smiles
[13:30] ShinKenDo: its the ego that disconects uto the reality ... it may has nothing to doo with gene..
[13:30] herman Bergson: dont know it wa shis contribution Mick..:-)
[13:31] ShinKenDo: if we would acknowledge that we are just sit in a car and wait for a parking spot we would not feel rage
[13:31] herman Bergson: winks at Qwark
[13:31] Mick Nerido: It's like cutting in line. It's not fair
[13:32] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) nods
[13:32] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): and that makes a person feel cheated and angry, as if an injustice has been done
[13:32] herman Bergson: You are still upset about the parking issue?? :-)
[13:33] herman Bergson: What this is all about is the basic feeling of rage and how it developed in evolution
[13:33] herman Bergson: and tho it is an unpleasant emotion we still have it..
[13:33] ShinKenDo: rage might be a needed emotion in times where the live was more violent
[13:33] herman Bergson: and it works...gives us energy to eliminate obstacles...
[13:34] Zinzi Serevi: for some ppl its a pleasant emotion i think
[13:34] Zinzi Serevi: they just go for it again and again
[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Zinzi...even that can happen...
[13:34] : Doodus Moose raises hand
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes as these fan themes in football games burning the entire city down after the game
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ruining the sport completely
[13:34] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): I believe the rush is what people enjoy, not the rage per say
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: big problems all over the world even in sweden
[13:35] Mick Nerido: Sports can be acceptable form of rage
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Melody..but that emotion gives the drive and energy to create havoc and overcome the obstacle.
[13:35] Zinzi Serevi: but what of the rage against emergency services
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: not if the entire city burns afterwards as i've seen in some countries
[13:36] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: houses burns cars burn people lay wounded everywhere
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: for a football game?
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: thats insane!
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Zinzi ..interesting issue...
[13:36] Kyra Neutron: yawns..prefers rage against the machine..
[13:36] herman Bergson: We really have a problem here....
[13:36] Zinzi Serevi: lol
[13:36] Zinzi Serevi: me too
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ÿes that better
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: speaking of that i had before today
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: I have machines that struggle when i try do something
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: first the bending machine lost its program and then the earplugs to my MP3 player broke
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: i just AARRRRRRRRGGGH
[13:37] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): that causes rage in me...my machines not doing what they should....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thursdays = struggle days for me :(:(
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: at least sl works
[13:38] Kyra Neutron: so kill in the name of the god..warrior...
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: not even the bowling pinsetter wanted to work when i played later today
[13:38] herman Bergson: ok ok..I got it.....
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and LHCV is down
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: LHC
[13:38] herman Bergson: we all seem to know that rage is a real basic emotion then
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Would we be better off now without it?
[13:39] herman Bergson: it comes from way back into history...
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hmm i'm at least tired of getting mad for this week
[13:39] herman Bergson: No Mick..that is the point!
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: luckily my rl best friend come over this weekend
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and cheers me up
[13:39] Zinzi Serevi: lol bejita
[13:40] herman Bergson: Evolution has kept this emotion alive to overcome obstacles
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i feel rage when i am helpless to do anything about an issue
[13:40] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): I believe we need rage as a sometimes catalyst for change
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so that does not help at all
[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:41] herman Bergson: yes we do Melody
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Gemma ..then we have our cortex...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hmm but when it struggles for me i just loose control and start slamming stuff and then that day is ruined
[13:41] Zinzi Serevi: anger can make you come to some action if you want some changed
[13:41] Zinzi Serevi: but rage?
[13:42] herman Bergson: it contains the machinery that tells you that what is beyond your powers cant be helped by you
[13:42] herman Bergson: the machinery
[13:42] herman Bergson: anger is the feeling associated with rage Zinzi...
[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: its less
[13:43] herman Bergson: In Dutch we have other words for it
[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: ok
[13:43] ShinKenDo: so what use has rage... what do smart peoples think could be made with rage?
[13:43] Mick Nerido: Which language has the most words for rage?
[13:44] herman Bergson: That was the whole issue here Shin...rage gives energy to overcome obstacles
[13:44] Zinzi Serevi: maybe it makes you aware of what you don't want
[13:44] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) nods
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: its as me im normally rational but when i get mad i can loose control, no fun at all
[13:45] herman Bergson: no Bejiita..rage never is fun...
[13:45] Kyra Neutron: can someone
[13:45] Kyra Neutron: pls
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: but it take a bit to get me to that but struggling stiff i have short temper with, at least when i just want it to work
[13:45] Kyra Neutron: explain
[13:45] ShinKenDo: and obstacle that cant be overcomme genereates rage then.. but cant stell be over comme... you cant pull out the other care put your care in with rage
[13:45] Kyra Neutron: what is rage
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: or this i want to be a good day and then something get in my way and ruins that
[13:45] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): rage is a mental state that is one extreme of the intensity spectrum of anger.
[13:45] herman Bergson: OK HOLD ON EVERY ONE !!!!!!
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: then i can get really mad cause i ve planned for it to be like this and this
[13:45] herman Bergson: PLZ...
[13:46] Kyra Neutron: madness..rage..anger...
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and it doesnt
[13:46] Kyra Neutron: dont see anything positivie input here
[13:46] herman Bergson: Kyra's question is quintessentail
[13:46] herman Bergson: and we have to be very clear about the answer…
[[13:46] ShinKenDo: rage might only be a emotional overflow that would put the blame on some one else ... so you can live with it more esaly or in rage you hurt yourselfe for being a foo.... but the obsticle is not overtaken still
[13:46] herman Bergson: What is rage...?
[13:46] herman Bergson: Quiet plz
[13:47] herman Bergson: Rage is an emotion...!
[13:47] Kyra Neutron: and what is madness?
[13:47] herman Bergson: And in previous lectures I have defined the concept of emotion we are using here
[13:48] herman Bergson: an emotion is like an orchestra conductor...
[13:48] Kyra Neutron: nods
[13:48] herman Bergson: it is a behavioral complex that sets a number of processes into action
[13:48] herman Bergson: like fear....
[13:48] herman Bergson: or grief do too
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: maddness is not rage, it is loosing rational thought and behave totally crazy against everything, id say Ghadaffi and Kim yong show maddness
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: killing their own people
[13:49] herman Bergson: I wasnt talking about madness..drop it
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: getting mad however is rage
[13:49] Kyra Neutron: mad _ madness_furious anger...
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: same word for many things
[13:49] Kyra Neutron: i dont think so
[13:50] herman Bergson: What you have to understand is that what I call a basic emotion is a brain process that activates a whole plethora of actions
[13:50] Zinzi Serevi: i think when you are in danger and can't fly then is rage usefull
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes thats correct
[13:50] Kyra Neutron: oks..
[13:51] herman Bergson: like rage reallocates the blood to muscles, creates andrenaline in the bloodstream....boosts the feeling of power and so on
[13:52] Kyra Neutron: looses again..against survival cells..
[13:52] herman Bergson: and th ebasic idea is...was this contributing to our evolution....?
[13:52] Zinzi Serevi: survive and defend
[13:52] herman Bergson: And the answer is yes... in general...
[13:53] ShinKenDo: so you say rage is here to help overcome obstacles but... the person has still his car parked at MY place... even if i got in rage it change nothing... in rage i would attack the poor driver because i blame him or i would hit my self for being so slow..... but the car is still not parked... so .... rage might be a emotion that leads to another emotion... acceptance? calm?
[13:53] herman Bergson: although we also know lots of examples where rage was utterly destructive
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and if u ram the car with your own your own car also would be wrecked
[13:54] herman Bergson: You missed the point in the example Shin....
[13:54] ShinKenDo: i might yes
[13:54] Kyra Neutron: yes..i tpd him late...
[13:54] Zinzi Serevi: every emotion can be good and destructive
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: not happiness or?
[13:55] Zinzi Serevi: yes happiness as well
[13:55] herman Bergson: the point was that the victim of your rage wasn't aware of the cause...your waiting for the spot..he didnt notice you
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): have to go soon
[13:55] Qwark Allen: yes me to
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats how i WANT to feel all time
[13:55] herman Bergson: soyour rage is completely irrational...
[13:55] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): so your rage is unfounded?
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman
[13:55] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) nods
[13:55] herman Bergson: and your cortex should correct that :-)
[13:55] Qwark Allen: very interesting subject, as fear
[13:55] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:55] Qwark Allen: ty
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wil try to make it tuesday but is not a good day for now
[13:55] ShinKenDo: then rage is here to let others know what you are angry about to find a solution together?
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: this is very interesting for sure indeed
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: and complex
[13:56] herman Bergson smiles
[13:56] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:56] Kyra Neutron: so nite nite to all..
[13:56] herman Bergson: dont get angry...but I guess time to dismiss class ^_^
[13:56] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) laughs
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ok night Kyra
[13:56] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): goodnight Kyra
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: hmm party time soon i guess
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank youall for your participation...
[13:56] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): :)
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: Thank you Herman
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: and also was nice to vent a bit of my issues today
[13:57] Zinzi Serevi: thanks Herman
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: damn thursday demons, always after me
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: well well
[13:57] Snow (snowbody.cortes): thanks herman
[13:57] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): Wonderful class Professor
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: tomorow its friday
[13:57] herman Bergson: poor you , Bejjiita..
[13:57] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) smiles
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: and weekend
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: and lot of fun things for me
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you Melody
[13:57] Zinzi Serevi: your anger already flows away Bejiita
[13:58] herman Bergson: ok..Go for it Bejiita!
[13:58] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..it was very interesting..as always:)
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: feel better now yes
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: no more struggle now
[13:58] herman Bergson: cool!
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: tired of that
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: want things to work
[13:58] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) grins at Bejiita
[13:58] Zinzi Serevi: its just like therapy this class..:P
[13:58] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita..a waste of energy
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: yes and ruins my days when it gets like that
[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) is going to check to see if she has that "warrior" gene
[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) laughs
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hee
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[13:59] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol Melody
[13:59] Snow (snowbody.cortes): hihihi
[13:59] herman Bergson: oh cool Melody..
[13:59] herman Bergson: where is the test?
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ok time to scare the neighbors rl with Qwark
[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): I am not sure but when I find it I will send you a link
[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) grins
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: this was nice and very interesting
[14:00] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): hopefully I dont get enraged if I can not find it
[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: bye folks cu
[14:00] Zinzi Serevi: bye Ciska
[14:00] Zinzi Serevi: bye everyone
[14:00] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): Bye Ciska
[14:00] herman Bergson: no ..you could smash your computer Melody..watch out !!!!
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: now its time to get my neiighbors mad instead
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: loool
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: lycky well insulated walls here
[14:01] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) laughs
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: dont know if they like Psy trance at high volume
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: as I doo
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[14:01] herman Bergson: oh my Bejiita!!!!!!
[14:01] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): indeed, we wouldn't want me to smash my computer, I would then miss Tuesdays class
[14:01] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) smiles
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hugs
[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[14:01] herman Bergson smiles

279: supersense and the Body 2

In my previous lecture I stated that our natural way of thinking about life tells us that there are essences, which in living organisms are fueled by a life force (élan vital), while all is part of a whole.

With 'our natural way of thinking' I mean the way of thinking that is the result of how our brain is wired. There is a logical, scientific way of thinking, but you have to learn that.

The natural way of thinking you don't need to learn. It develops and emerges from childhood on and stays with us al our life. It is a mix of rationality and supernatural thinking.

One basic trait of the mind is to organize our experiences and put them in categories: male, female, herbivore, bird, fish and so on…And here we find a nice example in the bible book Leviticus.

There you find a detailed list of animals which are clean and which are unclean. One explanation was that certain animals were indicated as unclean because in the warm climate they could cause easily diseases.

But this explanation doesn't apply to all listed animals. One intriguing alternative is that the unclean animals didn't fit into the categories, which people had in mind.

When the cow is a clean animal, all clean animals of that kind have to fit to its properties: slip hooves and chewing cud.

This made the camel unclean, because it brings up its cud, but its hoof is not split. Same with the pig…it has split hooves but doesn't chew its cud.

The jewish scholars in those days thought that such violations were abominations of the natural world. This is an example of our inclination to chop up nature into all kinds of categories which we think exist. And as you see, it may lead to conclusions which only can be justified by our supersense.

Take for instance the essence of being human , that invisible property that distinguishes us from nonhumans. We love to believe that, especially certain philosophers.

However, you can define an individual human being in a dozen ways, as a prince, an adolescent, a male, a neurotic, an athlete.

So which is the "right" definition. There isn't. The idea that there is only one true individual essence is nonsense.

Genetic manipulation is another example of how our supersense, our belief in essences works.

"When we hear about scientists inserting genes of fish into mice and potatoes, we feel squeamish. It just does not seem right. It’s not natural.", says Bruce Hood.

Related to the notion of essence is the idea of a life force, something that is in living animals but not in dead ones. This is vitalism, an ancient belief that the body is motivated by an inner energy.

We are not talking about the biochemical processes here, but about that extra, an "élan vital", or as you find in many religions, we are talking about the soul, often even understood as that force that makes us that unique individual we are.

Many believe that when somebody dies, something is leaving the body. In movies they love to show it as a half transparent copy of the deceased.

Don't you remember that movie where the deceased tries to warn his girlfriend. Forgot the title, only know that Whoopi Goldberg plays a part in it too and that scene at the potter's wheel.


herman Bergson : Anyone?
AristotleVon Doobie: Ghost
Qwark Allen : i remember
Qwark Allen : yes
Jozen Ocello : oh yes, ghost
Jozen Ocello : like that movie
herman Bergson : Yes Ghost...!
Bejiita Imako : ah ok
herman Bergson : I loved that movie...
AristotleVon Doobie: Patrick Swaysy
herman Bergson : yes and that girl...who was she...
Jozen Ocello : oh yeah... and Demi Moore?
AristotleVon Doobie: Demi Moore
herman Bergson : great!
å
Let me quote Bruce Hood on this intuitive vitalism: "... an emerging naive vitalism helps children to appreciate the nature of death as final and something that happens to everyone. Intuitive theories don’t have to be scientifically accurate to be useful.

Again I'll like to emphasize, in the realm of (scientific) knowledge ideas generated by supersense are nonsense, but on the other hand time and again it appears that we can't live as social beings without this nonsense (in an epistemological sense).

Let me quote Bruce Hood on this intuitive vitalism: "... an emerging naive vitalism helps children to appreciate the nature of death as final and something that happens to everyone. Intuitive theories don’t have to be scientifically accurate to be useful.

Again I'll like to emphasize, in the realm of (scientific) knowledge ideas generated by supersense are nonsense, but on the other hand time and again it appears that we can't live as social beings without this nonsense (in an epistemological sense).



The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^
[13:20] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours :-)
[13:21] herman Bergson: Don't tell me you are speechless...^_^
[13:21] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:21] Beertje Beaumont: were would we be without any supersense?..it gives us safety
[13:21] AristotleVon Doobie: This concept of soul then is a result of Supersense and not tutoring?
[13:21] Qwark Allen: still thinking about
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...where would we be without our supernatural beliefs...
[13:22] Beertje Beaumont: it gives us a safe feeling..and we need that to survive
[13:22] herman Bergson: I really don't know unless I would say that we would be rational beings then
[13:22] AristotleVon Doobie: I agree with Beertje about the safety of the sentiment, but the roots of it must be in instruction
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes but these supersense ideas are also a source of great danger for our survival..
[13:24] herman Bergson: Just look at religious and nationalistic fanaticism..
[13:24] Beertje Beaumont: yes true
[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: I can see that the primal brain gets involved in the formation of such things
[13:24] herman Bergson: Iran building nuclear plants to safe its nation ...
[13:24] Beertje Beaumont: but if there is nothing to live for..after we are dead..what is the use of living then?
[13:25] herman Bergson: let focus on Beertje's remark....it is most important....
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: ahh, the joy of living must be its own reward
[13:25] herman Bergson: What implies her remark....
[13:25] herman Bergson: One implication is that life has a goal...
[13:26] herman Bergson: a fundamental issue...
[13:26] herman Bergson: but the result of our supernatual thinking to believe that
[13:26] herman Bergson: there is nothing in this world that indicates that what is has a goal...
[13:26] herman Bergson: a final destiny
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: or hope that it does so that we can feel worthy?
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: religion for one tells you you are unworthy from the get go
[13:28] herman Bergson: One particular characteristic of monotheistic religions is that they tell you that you are bad, a sinner, unworthy, that you have to kneel down
[13:29] herman Bergson: and have you noticed...
[13:29] herman Bergson: now that religion is in decline we re establish the same system.....
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: the first thing a child hears once they can reach out is 'no'
[13:29] herman Bergson: Now we are the unworthy criminals destroying this planet..
[13:30] herman Bergson: God had been replaced by Earth
[13:30] herman Bergson: Sinner has been replaced by pollution creator
[13:30] Jozen Ocello: i wonder if this is where spirituality comes in? being spiritual rather than religious?
[13:30] herman Bergson: Our brain seems to be wired to think in such terms
[13:31] herman Bergson: May be Jozen.....
[13:31] Beertje Beaumont: writing a novel Itsme?
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: :) yes, seems sinful to destroy your support system
[13:31] herman Bergson: his memoirs Beertje...his memoirs
[13:31] Beertje Beaumont: lol
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: stuttering a lot
[13:32] itsme Frederix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telos_%28philosophy%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiology Beertje, that might help
[13:32] herman Bergson: Itsme..read the rules..no more than an average of 17 words ^_^
[13:32] Daruma Boa: oh sorry 2 say that. i have to leave now.
[13:33] herman Bergson: Take care, Daruma
[13:33] itsme Frederix: my average is this sentence divided by ... all these lines shorter than 17
[13:33] Daruma Boa: hope 2 be here on thursday^^^
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Daruma
[13:33] Beertje Beaumont: i read that later Itsme..i need time to read english
[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: spiritualty has to equate to religion somehow
[13:33] herman Bergson: there is a difference between spirituality and religion...
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: or could spirituality be merely appreciation and respect?
[13:34] herman Bergson: religion is always related to the group and to some kind of organisation
[13:34] herman Bergson: spirituality might mean the person way of using your supersense, having your own supernatural ideas to comfort you
[13:35] herman Bergson: Is that what you meant Jozen?
[13:35] Jozen Ocello: yes
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: well, I am certainly grateful for the sun, I don't really know to whom tho
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...also such a supersense idea....to be grateful for the sun..for life, for your health
[13:36] herman Bergson: and indeed to whom????
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: yes indeed
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: to me I suppose
[13:36] herman Bergson: I think so too Aristotle....
[13:37] herman Bergson: But I think the word grateful should be replaced by 'happy'
[13:37] herman Bergson: I am happy with the sun , with life , with my health...that makes sense
[13:37] Jozen Ocello: i think religion and spirituality are very closely related and indeed similar in some ways depending on how people define them, but i think spirituality is perhaps more tied to supersense than religion
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: ahhh, then that is the purpose of life.....happiness and the sharing of it
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:37] itsme Frederix: the bright side of life
[13:38] herman Bergson: yes ...but some religions forbid us to feel happy....you have to stay aware of the fact that we are still sinners...
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: yes LOL I have seen it, you must be miserable to go to heaven
[13:38] herman Bergson: And others say...happy ?....you arrogant jerk...
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL, thats me
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:39] herman Bergson: great!
[13:39] Jozen Ocello: lol
[13:40] herman Bergson: As you see, our supersense can be comforting, but also endangering our existence
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: like most things, depends who is weilding it
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...and then we enter the realm of philosophy...of ethics for instance
[13:41] herman Bergson: We have to the face the ontological questions....Beertje's question..what is the purpose of life...
[13:42] herman Bergson: We'll come to that later
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: is Itsme still typing?
[13:43] herman Bergson: So I suggest we'll wait for the lecture of Thursday ..:-)
[13:43] itsme Frederix: thats the wood it hurts a little
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: :))
[13:43] herman Bergson: should we collect some money for Itsme, so that he can buy proper clothes?
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hhe
[13:44] Beertje Beaumont: lol
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah all his clothes are probably just in the wash
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] itsme Frederix: All I want is that you leave me some sunshine ;)
[13:44] herman Bergson: we'll give him a landmark to a freebie store ^_^
[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: :))
[13:45] Jozen Ocello: you would have two tans by the end of it, itsme hehe
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe¨
[13:45] itsme Frederix: suckers
[13:45] herman Bergson: Well...thank you all for your participation again...
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you, Herman...as always very interesting
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: nice as usual this ㋡
[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman
[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed... ^_^
[13:45] Jozen Ocello: thanks look forward to Thursday's session
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: interesting
[13:45] herman Bergson: No homework today :-)
[13:45] Jozen Ocello: cool!
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: great I can Party
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL
[13:45] Jozen Ocello: lazy student here :P
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: yay!
[13:46] Qwark Allen: eheheh
[13:46] Qwark Allen: nice
[13:46] Qwark Allen: \o/

270: The Design of the Mind

Our world is full of supernatural beliefs. Do you hold supernatural beliefs and can you answer the question WHY you do so? Just this morning in my newspaper… a short report about the Norwegian royal princess Märtha Louise. She is 38.

In an interview she had revealed that she could talk with the dead and talk with angels, which caused a storm of criticism. And the criticism is from my perspective really funny.

The protestant bishop, Laila Riksaanen Dahl told on the Norwegian TV that the dead are the exclusive business of God and that they should be left in peace.
QUOTE: " To change this, can unleash dark forces, which we do not know."

I live with superstition in my own life too. Look at this picture. This object I have in my left pocket… yes definitely the left pocket. Nothing else may be in that pocket, no coins, no keys..only this object.

It has three parts. That coin with a hole in it is a so called age coin, used for instance in discos to prevent too young people to get access to cigarette machines. I found it on the stairs of the entrance of the institute I worked. I found it on the last working day before my retirement. I recognized its symbolic meaning and kept it.

The little animal may be hard to recognize, but it is a small elephant. When my wife was born her parents really picked her first name from the newspaper. It was the name of a little elephant born in a Dutch zoo on the same day.

The other part is St. Christopher.Christopher has always been a widely popular saint, being especially revered by athletes, mariners, ferrymen, and travelers. So, I guess that he helps to keep me on the right track.

Quite a lot of nonsense beliefs, isn't it. (^_^) Ok, I plead guilty, but before you throw the first stone (seems to be popular again these days;-) look at your own life, where you may feel uncomfortable on Fryday the 13th, with a black cat or deeply guilty when you have committed a real sin in eyes of your God in your opinion.

As we saw in our former lecture, this can not be simply attributed to our education or our culture. Especially because among other things, this does hardly explain why we are so WILLING to cherish our supernatural beliefs.

This willingness is just in our mind, or to use Hood's words, we find the explanation in the design of our mind. "Design" means the organized way how our brain is equipped to understand and interpret the world.

Just like our other body parts have evolved during millions of years, in the same way has our brain gone through an evolution to help us survive.

Most scientists nowadays agree with the conclusion, that our brain is equipped with a set of specialized, internal mechanisms, which make it possible for us to process our experiences. In other words: we posses a mental toolbox.

This makes me think of the epistemological debate about the origin of knowledge and how we discuss ontology. Can we conclude that Immanuel Kant (1724 - 1804) is the winner of the debate?

Kant believed himself to be creating a compromise between the empiricists and the rationalists. The empiricists believed that knowledge is acquired through experience alone, but the rationalists maintained that such knowledge is open to Cartesian doubt and that reason alone provides us with knowledge.

Kant argues, however, that using reason without applying it to experience will only lead to illusions and empty concepts, while experience will be purely subjective without first being subsumed under pure reason.

Then John Locke (1632 - 1704) is the looser. He postulated that the mind was a blank slate or tabula rasa. Contrary to pre-existing Cartesian philosophy, he maintained that we are born without innate ideas, and that knowledge is instead determined only by experience derived from sense perception.

It can no longer be denied that the brain is an active player in our existence and not just a passive organ that first has to be filled with sensory experiences before it is able to be of some use to us.

Now we are so smart and impressed by the complexity of the brain, that we have great difficulty to believe that it has been different so many million years ago. The brain did not simply dropped from the sky, ready and fully operational.

It is the result of a long evolution and the designer of this brain is natural selection. And here the battle begins, when we enter the field of evolutionary psychology.

The application of evolutionary theory to the psychology and behavior of other animal species is generally uncontroversial. However, adaptationist approaches to human psychology are contentious, with critics questioning the scientific nature of evolutionary psychology, and with more minor debates within the field itself.

Evolutionary Psychology is grounded on the theory that fundamentally our psychology is based on biology, the composition of our brains. This is a form of reductionism, a research philosophy according to which the nature of complex things can be understood in terms of simpler or more fundamental things (i.e. reduced).

Now just read the following sentence: "The debates regarding the validity of evolutionary psychology have been regarded as occasionally quite vicious, with a strong ad hominem component."

I found this statement in an article in Wikipedia and it did not surprise me at all. When Darwin published his evolutionary theory, the world was literally in shock. Was there a connection between an ape and the human being??? Impossible!

The response was that cartoons showed Darwin as an ape. We are now entering a very sensitive area of the human discourse about ourselves. So let's keep our debates as objective and focused on the subject as possible, and let's avoid any ad hominem arguments.


The Discusion

[13:27] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:27] herman Bergson: The floor is yours ^_^
[13:28] itsme Frederix: applause
[13:28] APPLAUSE: A Hearty round of applause bursts from the crowd
[13:28] Jozen Ocello: claps
[13:28] herman Bergson: thank you...
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:28] : Qwark Allen joins the applause.
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: interesting
[13:28] herman Bergson: You surprise me..!
[13:28] itsme Frederix: some Quarcks are around
[13:29] herman Bergson: So nothing new in my words..you are all ok with it? :-)
[13:29] Beertje Beaumont: yes
[13:29] herman Bergson: Great ^^
[13:29] Quizzle Mode beams
[13:29] Abraxas Nagy: yep
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: a mighty strength is required for most foslk to resist ad hominem argumentation
[13:30] itsme Frederix: Well if you persist?
[13:30] Qwark Allen: i believe that was a similar concept as natural selection that made the brain as it is
[13:30] Qwark Allen: the sexual selection
[13:30] itsme Frederix: I was triggered by this sentence "13:22] herman Bergson: It can no longer be denied that the brain is an active player in our existence and not just a passive organ that first has to be filled with sensory experiences before it is able do be of some use to us."
[13:30] Qwark Allen: was the choice of thousands of years, of the female, that got us in this direction
[13:30] Qwark Allen: not the natural selection
[13:31] herman Bergson: Evolutionary psychology is fascinating.....especially the controversies…
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: I would think with supernatural things it can only be ad hominem
[13:31] itsme Frederix: Which implies a separation between "us" and "brain" (and maybe body?)
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well Aristotle...
[13:31] itsme Frederix: we utilize the brain or ... vice versa?
[13:32] herman Bergson: the problem with beliefs is that people are in love with their own beliefs...
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: that is my suspicion itsme
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: oh my yes
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: the former
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL yes indeed they are
[13:32] itsme Frederix: first Ari (and I think mine is a little besides the topic - et)
[13:32] herman Bergson: and when you critizise their beliefs you critisize their beloved ones......the ones they cuddle every day
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: Hood I believe is one of them
[13:33] herman Bergson: Hood is a horror to believers
[13:33] Quizzle Mode: We come very close here to asking the unanswerable question of how can we know anything outside our own thoughts? Does anything at all exist outside one's thoughts/perceptions.
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: bergie
[13:33] herman Bergson: That is an old one Quizzle...sollipsism...
[13:33] Qwark Allen: you got to read about darwin's nightmare with the peacock
[13:34] Quizzle Mode: yes, and one we really just have to live with ;)
[13:34] herman Bergson: But we leave the epistemological debate out here for the moment...and decline sollipsism as a tenable stand
[13:35] herman Bergson: just a pragmatic point of view..^_^
[13:35] herman Bergson: Wel I guess we can move on then....
[13:35] Quizzle Mode: Sollipsism is the stand, not the question Prof, and I totally agree that we must leave the question aside for practical purposes.
[13:36] herman Bergson: thank you Quizzle...
[13:36] itsme Frederix: So to summarize: supersense is natural and gives way for supernatural thoughts/behaviour - and its all because it made (and makes)sense to survive.
[13:36] herman Bergson: You could say that Itsme....
[13:37] itsme Frederix: Well that is my interpretation of your speech and Hood's book
[13:37] herman Bergson: If I look at my own personal superstition…it is just fun....and in a way emotionally not just fun....
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: I just can not see any rationality much less empirical data to substantiate superstition except a feeling
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Aristorle...
[13:37] Repose Lionheart: the human brain has a keen and evolved ability to see patterns and connections...a common element in "supernatural" perceptions
[13:38] itsme Frederix: Herman, more then fun because these things co-relate with some good things in life, and you made the correlation
[13:38] Beertje Beaumont: is supersense just for humans?
[13:38] herman Bergson: But dont fall into the pittfal of binary tinking...
[13:38] herman Bergson: that we are either rational or emotional...
[13:38] herman Bergson: we are one....
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: it seems,like religion, added to the list of unprovable notions
[13:39] herman Bergson: every thought has a rational and emotional dimension...
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: I have a 'feeling' we are not one
[13:39] herman Bergson: if you only reduce our behavior to a permanent struggle to survive...
[13:39] herman Bergson: we need it all..the rational and the irrational, it seems
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: well, yes....if we approach it as us being two selves
[13:40] itsme Frederix: Arie, the point is that supersense is NOT unprovable but that it is a theory based on observations and fitting in evolutionairy thoughts
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: it becomes much clearer
[13:40] herman Bergson: and there is no clear border between rational and irrational...
[13:40] herman Bergson: that is just an idea generated by our brain
[13:40] herman Bergson: a handy tool to understand the world around us
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: aa o
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:41] herman Bergson: ok..
[13:41] itsme Frederix: Herman, better to say a handy tool to .. handle and deal with the world
[13:42] itsme Frederix: .. and ourselves in that world
[13:42] herman Bergson: Next Tuesday we'll look into the specifics of the brain....how it works and what consequences this has
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok Itsem..agreed!
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:42] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your particiaption....
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: :) thank you Professor
[13:43] Repose Lionheart: Thank you, Professor ㋡
[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: was nice again Herman
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:43] Sartre Placebo: thx herman
[13:43] Abraxas Nagy: thank you professor
[13:43] Jozen Ocello: thanks
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: interesting topic as usual ㋡
[13:43] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Professor
[13:43] Abraxas Nagy: as always
[13:43] itsme Frederix: thx, and we will look into the specifics of the brain as we think it as and how we think it works. I guess the brain keeps that secret for us.!
[13:43] Quizzle Mode: Thank you Professor
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: hope I can make it on time tuesday i will be out of town
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: with the computer
[13:43] Rodney Handrick: thanks Herman
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: so if internet works i will be here
[13:43] herman Bergson: Great you made is so early Rodney!
[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: yes nice!
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman:-)
[13:44] Rodney Handrick: yes, why yes I did!
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon
[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all!
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡