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"Why must running into an obstacle to achieve our goal be accompanied by an emotion we don't like at all: rage? Why did it survive evolution? I'll answer this question in the next lecture." were the last words of my previous lecture.From an evolutionary point of view this is a useless question. Rage IS unpleasant, like water IS wet. It is an intrinsic feature of it. If it were a pleasant emotion, you might be beaten up and enjoy the rage it evokes in you.In fact, the unpleasantness of rage is part of the power of the emotion to overcome an obstacle. When some one is blocking your way, it could be seen as an hostile act, even a kind of aggression.Here you see the positive power of rage. It is communicated by voice, gestures and facial expressions. The effect may be that this kind of threatening behavior makes the opponent retreats.Thus rage even prevents escalation and further aggression. This is a very common behavior in the animal kingdom. You growl, show your teeth and your opponent might reconsider his intentions.And it can work both ways. The opponent can show an even stronger rage behavior, which forces the other party to re-evaluate his goals. So, in general threatening often surpreses the aggression on both sides.From an evolutionary point of view this is not so surprising: aggression easily leads to damage, to wounds. It is a not done. When animals yet start a fight, it often is without inflicting serious physical damage.Rage is not only a psychological burst of energy, but also a physical phenomenon. The blood is redirected to the muscles. The activity of the intestines is slowed down. You feel stronger, like you feel weaker when in grief or depressed.In the course of evolution of the Homo Sapiens (that's us :-) this emotion of rage has become more and more adapted to our cognitive ability. In the beginning rage was a way to overcome physical and social obstacles.From our growing consciousness there emerged an "I" - awareness, a sense of self-esteem: a Self. We won't go into detail here with respect to these concepts. That is for later, because these are philosophically mind boggling issues.We'll focus on self-esteem, for this was very important for the individual. It defines his place in the group. The brain became steadily better to evaluate itself and the body, in which it resides. The result of the evaluation was important for the social behavior of the individual (as it still is of course).When this Self is attacked the first response may be shame ("ouch, is that me indeed?") but then it turns into rage ("I don't have to accept that! So, apologize for what you just said or….!")Rage is an interesting mechanism to remove obstacles for the normal functioning of our Self in the social group. And we also know the extremes: the person with such a big self-esteem, that even the slightest word of criticism will infuriate him.We are still talking here about the emotion of one individual, but because these basic emotions are shared by every one in the group, they also work on a social level.The integrity of the group is most important for survival. So, you easily can imagine what will happen when some one from inside or outside the group tries to disrupt this integrity. A collective rage can be the consequence, which mobilizes all energy in the group to eliminate the threat.Today we are member of all kinds of groups: a family, a sports club, soccer fan club, a town or a country. Just think of soccer fans of club A and the rage they can get into by seeing fans of the opponent's club.Culture determines on who, when and how we can focus our rage. Typically, culture rejects physical violence - leads to damage - in any case and rather prefers to negotiate, increase verbal abuse or the threatening than physical action.As I discuss rage here from an evolutionary point of view it is considered as a mechanism that does a good thing, but of course we all know that it also can be a dangerous emotion, which can lead to full-scale escalation of violence and aggression. This happens in all cases, where negotiations didn't work.One of the enemies of emotions is time, certainly for rage, because it gives the slower part of our brain, the cortex, the time to make a rational analysis of the emotion and subdue the evolutionary older parts of the brain, which are responsible for the instant rage.The ratio can come up with two suggestions: the first one is to understand that rage is a secondary emotion, beneath it is the real emotion you have to deal with, which is most of the time some kind of frustration or feeling attacked for some reason.The second one is to change places with the target of your rage. Suppose you are waiting for a parking place….. the other car pulls out and drives off. Then out of the blue another car takes "your" place!You get out of your car and are furious and you'll gonna tell that other person. However, he hadn't seen you waiting for the place, so, feels completely innocent. Imagine that you were in his position?What is the meaning of your rage here?The Discussion[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours :-)[13:24] herman Bergson: if you have any question or remark.....[13:24] Mick Nerido: Not being noticed could be the reason[13:25] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): well it seems the main emotion underlaying here is I would feel cheated out of my spot...[13:25] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): therefor, I would be upset...[13:25] herman Bergson: yo mean the parking example...[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:25] Kyra Neutron: so...be better at parking next time...[13:25] herman Bergson: just an example...[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they have identified a gene called the "warrior " gene[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it seems to cover a lot of this rage[13:26] herman Bergson: The issue here is rage as a basic emotion and its role in evolution[13:26] Mick Nerido: we have personal space issues here[13:26] Bejiita Imako: one thing i can get mad at is stuff that struggles in general when u definitely dont want it to[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): 30 % of men have it[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): less women[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma![13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): saw a shwo about it the other day[13:26] herman Bergson: Not surprised![13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you can do a test[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for it[13:27] herman Bergson: cool...[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ok[13:27] herman Bergson: do I have the gen?[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but as they ended saying gene or no gene you still have to take personal responsibility to account for your actions[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and work on it[13:27] herman Bergson smiles[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma ...we cant escape ethics[13:28] herman Bergson: we have a knowledge of good and bad....![13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but at least those who have it can find out if they have the gene[13:28] herman Bergson: gene or no gene[13:29] ShinKenDo: its disconection of reality i might say[13:29] herman Bergson: lik ethe y also found a gene that makes you more susceptible for religious beliefs[13:29] herman Bergson: What do yo mean Shin?[13:30] Mick Nerido: The God gene?[13:30] herman Bergson smiles[13:30] ShinKenDo: its the ego that disconects uto the reality ... it may has nothing to doo with gene..[13:30] herman Bergson: dont know it wa shis contribution Mick..:-)[13:31] ShinKenDo: if we would acknowledge that we are just sit in a car and wait for a parking spot we would not feel rage[13:31] herman Bergson: winks at Qwark[13:31] Mick Nerido: It's like cutting in line. It's not fair[13:32] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) nods[13:32] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): and that makes a person feel cheated and angry, as if an injustice has been done[13:32] herman Bergson: You are still upset about the parking issue?? :-)[13:33] herman Bergson: What this is all about is the basic feeling of rage and how it developed in evolution[13:33] herman Bergson: and tho it is an unpleasant emotion we still have it..[13:33] ShinKenDo: rage might be a needed emotion in times where the live was more violent[13:33] herman Bergson: and it works...gives us energy to eliminate obstacles...[13:34] Zinzi Serevi: for some ppl its a pleasant emotion i think[13:34] Zinzi Serevi: they just go for it again and again[13:34] herman Bergson: yes Zinzi...even that can happen...[13:34] : Doodus Moose raises hand[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes as these fan themes in football games burning the entire city down after the game[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ruining the sport completely[13:34] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): I believe the rush is what people enjoy, not the rage per say[13:34] Bejiita Imako: big problems all over the world even in sweden[13:35] Mick Nerido: Sports can be acceptable form of rage[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Melody..but that emotion gives the drive and energy to create havoc and overcome the obstacle.[13:35] Zinzi Serevi: but what of the rage against emergency services[13:35] Bejiita Imako: not if the entire city burns afterwards as i've seen in some countries[13:36] Qwark Allen: :-)[13:36] Bejiita Imako: houses burns cars burn people lay wounded everywhere[13:36] Bejiita Imako: for a football game?[13:36] Bejiita Imako: thats insane![13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Zinzi ..interesting issue...[13:36] Kyra Neutron: yawns..prefers rage against the machine..[13:36] herman Bergson: We really have a problem here....[13:36] Zinzi Serevi: lol[13:36] Zinzi Serevi: me too[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ÿes that better[13:36] Bejiita Imako: speaking of that i had before today[13:37] Bejiita Imako: I have machines that struggle when i try do something[13:37] Bejiita Imako: first the bending machine lost its program and then the earplugs to my MP3 player broke[13:37] Bejiita Imako: i just AARRRRRRRRGGGH[13:37] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): that causes rage in me...my machines not doing what they should....[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thursdays = struggle days for me :(:([13:38] Bejiita Imako: at least sl works[13:38] Kyra Neutron: so kill in the name of the god..warrior...[13:38] Bejiita Imako: not even the bowling pinsetter wanted to work when i played later today[13:38] herman Bergson: ok ok..I got it.....[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and LHCV is down[13:38] Bejiita Imako: LHC[13:38] herman Bergson: we all seem to know that rage is a real basic emotion then[13:39] Mick Nerido: Would we be better off now without it?[13:39] herman Bergson: it comes from way back into history...[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hmm i'm at least tired of getting mad for this week[13:39] herman Bergson: No Mick..that is the point![13:39] Bejiita Imako: luckily my rl best friend come over this weekend[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and cheers me up[13:39] Zinzi Serevi: lol bejita[13:40] herman Bergson: Evolution has kept this emotion alive to overcome obstacles[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i feel rage when i am helpless to do anything about an issue[13:40] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): I believe we need rage as a sometimes catalyst for change[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so that does not help at all[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:41] herman Bergson: yes we do Melody[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Gemma ..then we have our cortex...[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hmm but when it struggles for me i just loose control and start slamming stuff and then that day is ruined[13:41] Zinzi Serevi: anger can make you come to some action if you want some changed[13:41] Zinzi Serevi: but rage?[13:42] herman Bergson: it contains the machinery that tells you that what is beyond your powers cant be helped by you[13:42] herman Bergson: the machinery[13:42] herman Bergson: anger is the feeling associated with rage Zinzi...[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: its less[13:43] herman Bergson: In Dutch we have other words for it[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: ok[13:43] ShinKenDo: so what use has rage... what do smart peoples think could be made with rage?[13:43] Mick Nerido: Which language has the most words for rage?[13:44] herman Bergson: That was the whole issue here Shin...rage gives energy to overcome obstacles[13:44] Zinzi Serevi: maybe it makes you aware of what you don't want[13:44] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) nods[13:44] Bejiita Imako: its as me im normally rational but when i get mad i can loose control, no fun at all[13:45] herman Bergson: no Bejiita..rage never is fun...[13:45] Kyra Neutron: can someone[13:45] Kyra Neutron: pls[13:45] Bejiita Imako: but it take a bit to get me to that but struggling stiff i have short temper with, at least when i just want it to work[13:45] Kyra Neutron: explain[13:45] ShinKenDo: and obstacle that cant be overcomme genereates rage then.. but cant stell be over comme... you cant pull out the other care put your care in with rage[13:45] Kyra Neutron: what is rage[13:45] Bejiita Imako: or this i want to be a good day and then something get in my way and ruins that[13:45] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): rage is a mental state that is one extreme of the intensity spectrum of anger.[13:45] herman Bergson: OK HOLD ON EVERY ONE !!!!!![13:45] Bejiita Imako: then i can get really mad cause i ve planned for it to be like this and this[13:45] herman Bergson: PLZ...[13:46] Kyra Neutron: madness..rage..anger...[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and it doesnt[13:46] Kyra Neutron: dont see anything positivie input here[13:46] herman Bergson: Kyra's question is quintessentail[13:46] herman Bergson: and we have to be very clear about the answer…[[13:46] ShinKenDo: rage might only be a emotional overflow that would put the blame on some one else ... so you can live with it more esaly or in rage you hurt yourselfe for being a foo.... but the obsticle is not overtaken still[13:46] herman Bergson: What is rage...?[13:46] herman Bergson: Quiet plz[13:47] herman Bergson: Rage is an emotion...![13:47] Kyra Neutron: and what is madness?[13:47] herman Bergson: And in previous lectures I have defined the concept of emotion we are using here[13:48] herman Bergson: an emotion is like an orchestra conductor...[13:48] Kyra Neutron: nods[13:48] herman Bergson: it is a behavioral complex that sets a number of processes into action[13:48] herman Bergson: like fear....[13:48] herman Bergson: or grief do too[13:48] Bejiita Imako: maddness is not rage, it is loosing rational thought and behave totally crazy against everything, id say Ghadaffi and Kim yong show maddness[13:49] Bejiita Imako: killing their own people[13:49] herman Bergson: I wasnt talking about madness..drop it[13:49] Bejiita Imako: getting mad however is rage[13:49] Kyra Neutron: mad _ madness_furious anger...[13:49] Bejiita Imako: same word for many things[13:49] Kyra Neutron: i dont think so[13:50] herman Bergson: What you have to understand is that what I call a basic emotion is a brain process that activates a whole plethora of actions[13:50] Zinzi Serevi: i think when you are in danger and can't fly then is rage usefull[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes thats correct[13:50] Kyra Neutron: oks..[13:51] herman Bergson: like rage reallocates the blood to muscles, creates andrenaline in the bloodstream....boosts the feeling of power and so on[13:52] Kyra Neutron: looses again..against survival cells..[13:52] herman Bergson: and th ebasic idea is...was this contributing to our evolution....?[13:52] Zinzi Serevi: survive and defend[13:52] herman Bergson: And the answer is yes... in general...[13:53] ShinKenDo: so you say rage is here to help overcome obstacles but... the person has still his car parked at MY place... even if i got in rage it change nothing... in rage i would attack the poor driver because i blame him or i would hit my self for being so slow..... but the car is still not parked... so .... rage might be a emotion that leads to another emotion... acceptance? calm?[13:53] herman Bergson: although we also know lots of examples where rage was utterly destructive[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and if u ram the car with your own your own car also would be wrecked[13:54] herman Bergson: You missed the point in the example Shin....[13:54] ShinKenDo: i might yes[13:54] Kyra Neutron: yes..i tpd him late...[13:54] Zinzi Serevi: every emotion can be good and destructive[13:54] Bejiita Imako: not happiness or?[13:55] Zinzi Serevi: yes happiness as well[13:55] herman Bergson: the point was that the victim of your rage wasn't aware of the cause...your waiting for the spot..he didnt notice you[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): have to go soon[13:55] Qwark Allen: yes me to[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats how i WANT to feel all time[13:55] herman Bergson: soyour rage is completely irrational...[13:55] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): so your rage is unfounded?[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman[13:55] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) nods[13:55] herman Bergson: and your cortex should correct that :-)[13:55] Qwark Allen: very interesting subject, as fear[13:55] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:55] Qwark Allen: ty[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wil try to make it tuesday but is not a good day for now[13:55] ShinKenDo: then rage is here to let others know what you are angry about to find a solution together?[13:55] Bejiita Imako: this is very interesting for sure indeed[13:55] Bejiita Imako: and complex[13:56] herman Bergson smiles[13:56] Qwark Allen: yes[13:56] Kyra Neutron: so nite nite to all..[13:56] herman Bergson: dont get angry...but I guess time to dismiss class ^_^[13:56] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) laughs[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ok night Kyra[13:56] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): goodnight Kyra[13:56] Bejiita Imako: hmm party time soon i guess[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank youall for your participation...[13:56] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): :)[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: Thank you Herman[13:56] Bejiita Imako: and also was nice to vent a bit of my issues today[13:57] Zinzi Serevi: thanks Herman[13:57] Bejiita Imako: damn thursday demons, always after me[13:57] Bejiita Imako: well well[13:57] Snow (snowbody.cortes): thanks herman[13:57] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): Wonderful class Professor[13:57] Bejiita Imako: tomorow its friday[13:57] herman Bergson: poor you , Bejjiita..[13:57] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) smiles[13:57] Bejiita Imako: and weekend[13:57] Bejiita Imako: and lot of fun things for me[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you Melody[13:57] Zinzi Serevi: your anger already flows away Bejiita[13:58] herman Bergson: ok..Go for it Bejiita![13:58] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..it was very interesting..as always:)[13:58] Bejiita Imako: feel better now yes[13:58] Bejiita Imako: no more struggle now[13:58] herman Bergson: cool![13:58] Bejiita Imako: tired of that[13:58] Bejiita Imako: want things to work[13:58] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) grins at Bejiita[13:58] Zinzi Serevi: its just like therapy this class..:P[13:58] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita..a waste of energy[13:58] Bejiita Imako: yes and ruins my days when it gets like that[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) is going to check to see if she has that "warrior" gene[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) laughs[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hee[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hahaha[13:59] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol Melody[13:59] Snow (snowbody.cortes): hihihi[13:59] herman Bergson: oh cool Melody..[13:59] herman Bergson: where is the test?[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ok time to scare the neighbors rl with Qwark[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): I am not sure but when I find it I will send you a link[13:59] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) grins[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hehe[14:00] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again[14:00] Bejiita Imako: this was nice and very interesting[14:00] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): hopefully I dont get enraged if I can not find it[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: bye folks cu[14:00] Zinzi Serevi: bye Ciska[14:00] Zinzi Serevi: bye everyone[14:00] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): Bye Ciska[14:00] herman Bergson: no ..you could smash your computer Melody..watch out !!!![14:00] Bejiita Imako: now its time to get my neiighbors mad instead[14:00] Bejiita Imako: loool[14:01] Bejiita Imako: lycky well insulated walls here[14:01] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) laughs[14:01] Bejiita Imako: dont know if they like Psy trance at high volume[14:01] Bejiita Imako: as I doo[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehe[14:01] herman Bergson: oh my Bejiita!!!!!![14:01] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne): indeed, we wouldn't want me to smash my computer, I would then miss Tuesdays class[14:01] Melody Jayne (ladyjayne) smiles[14:01] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hugs[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[14:01] herman Bergson smiles
If you had the choice to get rid of one specific emotion from the collection that cheers up our human lives, I guess that anger would be one of the first candidates.Like grief we regard it as a negative feeling, but some of you were surprised to hear me talk about grief as a positive feeling. You won't believe it, but also anger can be regarded as a positive feeling.But here is the catch: in your personal experience you'll certainly find grief and anger emotions you prefer to avoid, but here WE look at emotions from an evolutionary point of view.And then is not the main question "How does it feel?" but "Has the emotion an evolutionary advantage?" And then we can say that rage is not always destructive. It can be very constructive…Rage is not synonymous with aggression. Aggression is an act, while rage is an emotion, a drive. A lot of rage is without aggression. Rage can even prevent aggression.We have rage in all colors and flavors: from a mild annoyance to a true furiosity. But all have one thing in common. Rage generates energy. It gives us the power to overcome an obstacle.That is the main function of rage: it focuses our energy on the realization of a goal that apparently is blocked by some one or something.It may be a bit mean, but you already can test it on a baby. A baby wants to move its arms and legs freely in all directions. When you block an arm from moving in any direction the little one will frantically try to move his arm and protest furiously.This could be seen as the quintessence of the emotion: the fact that we are frustrated in achieving some goal. The intensity of the rage is often determined by the degree of frustration we experience.It makes a difference whether someone deliberately works against us, or if someone accidentally does that, or when an inanimate object blocks the achieving of our goal.This makes me think of typical movie psychology… or does this count only for American movie psychology? Rage is not a simple emotion. There is a connection between rage and grief.Most of the time, not always, is our reaction on a failure or loss caused by the cause of it. If it is a person, who deliberately got in our way, rage may turn into aggression and make us beat up our hindrance.If it is a person, who is unaware of the fact that he got in our way….. well we may show an angry face but then swallow our anger and move on.If it is your dog or an inanimate object we may feel disappointment and subsequently grief. But then it begins….. You say to the dog "STUPID DOG!!!" and things like that.And here comes the movie psychology: he is pursuing the serial killer…almost gets him..then his car breaks down….geez..was just a matter of seconds….He gets out of his car and starts yelling at it. Then he starts kicking it. He smashes the windows and so on. Rage, that leads to aggression, even against an inanimate object.It is a cute reference to our prehistorical ancestors. They thought that the animals, trees and rocks had a soul. It even is present in our own psychological development. Jean Piaget (9 August 1896 – 16 September 1980), a Swiss developmental psychologist and philosopher known for his epistemological studies with children, called it the animism in the magical thinking in the age of 2 to 7: the belief that your doll really feels pain…. And movie directors love to display such atavistic or childlike behavior.Rage and grief can also be closely related , when a man is rejected by a woman of whom he expected or hoped that she would say YES to him.He leaves her house, feeling sad, but gradually his sadness turns into anger and rage (She has some one else !!!) and he could turn around and his rage could turn into aggression…..A lot of interpersonal violence is caused by failed love affairs, most of the time committed by men against women.Why must running into an obstacle to achieve our goal be accompanied by an emotion we don't like at all: rage? Why did it survive evolution? I'll answer this question in the next lecture.The Discussion[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you...^_^[13:24] herman Bergson: Feel free to come up with remarks or questions..floor is yours[13:24] Doodus Moose: if i experience something more like frustration...[13:24] Usher Piers: thanks :)[13:24] Doodus Moose: i find myself doing something that needed to be done for a long time[13:24] Doodus Moose: ....like installing a door, for instance[13:24] herman Bergson smiles[13:25] Mick Nerido: If our ancestors didn't feel rage and overcome obstacles we would not be here now[13:25] herman Bergson: Very true Mick[13:25] herman Bergson: But that is with all emotions....they offered an evolutionary advantage to the species[13:26] herman Bergson: The thing i s only that we still have these basic emotions while our environment has changed so much[13:26] Mick Nerido: Sublimated rage is very powerful energy[13:27] herman Bergson: Oh yes Mick..we'll get to that next lecture![13:27] Doodus Moose: a stress counselor once said "if you can't control your boss at work, clean up your office"[13:27] herman Bergson: may be a good advise Doodus..but how does it relate to rage?[13:28] Doodus Moose: sort of like holding the baby's arm - you can't control something ?[13:28] Mick Nerido: If I get angry and can't change the situation I go to the gym :)[13:29] herman Bergson: well I guess it is all about the feeling of control in such moments...[13:29] herman Bergson: If you can't control your boss...[13:29] herman Bergson: cleaning uo your desk is a show of control...for yourself...[13:29] Doodus Moose: [13:29] Mick Nerido: Passive agressive[13:30] herman Bergson: Going to the gym…control of you body![13:30] Doodus Moose: ...also stress release![13:30] Ciska Riverstone: it makes sense to feel more energy when an obstacle is in the way - otherwise you have no chance to overcome it...[13:30] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): rage normally is not good for peaceful living together[13:30] Mick Nerido: Yes I am in better shape so an survival advantage[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes when u really want something but it struggles[13:31] Bejiita Imako: like now for i want my inventory to come back again[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes ciska's remark is quitessential...[13:31] Bejiita Imako: and i hope it does for sure[13:31] herman Bergson: and what siggi says too![13:31] herman Bergson: We'll get to that in the next lecture...[13:32] Mick Nerido: Rage is an outgoing emotion grief is inward[13:32] herman Bergson: Why didn't we discard of rage as an emotion in evolution?[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): what is the diffrence between rage and anger?[13:33] herman Bergson: anger is just the feeling of the moment Beertje...[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: we did not discard it but didn't the acceptance change quiet a lot ? the cultural one?[13:33] herman Bergson: when you are in rage you are angry, so to speak..[13:33] herman Bergson: when you are in grief you feel sad....[13:34] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you[13:34] herman Bergson: the difference between emotion and feeling...[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:34] Mick Nerido: You look sexy when you are angry is an expression[13:34] herman Bergson: the emotion is like the conductor of an orchestra...he sets all kinds of instruments in motion...[13:34] Doodus Moose: [13:35] Bilthor Esharham: ㋡[13:35] Bilthor Esharham: ㋡[13:35] herman Bergson: a feeling is just a mood[13:35] Zinzi Serevi: sometimes i think a man can more easy feel rage then grief[13:36] herman Bergson: hmmmm...Zinzi.....I don tknow....[13:36] herman Bergson: I call rage a secondary emotion....[13:37] Zinzi Serevi: well when you feel rage you can do something[13:37] Zinzi Serevi: if you feel grief its more difficult[13:37] herman Bergson: we'll get to that later but I mean ..underneath the rage is an other emotion...covered up by the rage[13:37] Zinzi Serevi: yes[13:37] herman Bergson: so grief and rage aren't equivalent...[13:38] herman Bergson: rage is a complex emotion...[13:38] herman Bergson: a mix so to speak[13:38] Doodus Moose: perhaps someday we can discuss those things that "control" our emotions, (ie: prevent our rage from making us do something stupid)[13:38] Doodus Moose: (self control)[13:39] herman Bergson: But we do that a lot of times Doodus..[13:39] herman Bergson: You read an article in your nespaper...you get really angry about it....[13:39] herman Bergson: and then....?[13:40] herman Bergson: you put your anger/rage in your pocket and move on..[13:40] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): rage often keeps people away from thinking rationally[13:40] herman Bergson: or join the action committee related to it for instance[13:40] Mick Nerido: You write a letter to the paper[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Siggi[13:41] herman Bergson: and you know what happens when you see a video of yourself in rage???[13:41] herman Bergson: You feel embarrassed to see you act so irrationally[13:42] Doodus Moose: hilarious[13:42] herman Bergson: yes indeed Doodus[13:42] herman Bergson: good for a laugh indeed[13:42] Bilthor Esharham: *** HOHOHO THAT IS A GOOD ONE !!! ***[13:42] herman Bergson: Well I am glad nobody got in rage here today...^_^[13:43] herman Bergson: so thank you for this nice discussion...:-)[13:43] Bejiita Imako: was interesting[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..[13:43] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): maybe next time we will Herman :))[13:43] herman Bergson: See you next Thursday[13:43] Bejiita Imako: oki now i must try dfix my invent[13:43] Bejiita Imako: cu later soon[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: Thank You Professor - interesting as always :)[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: thank you Herman, see you all later..:)[13:43] herman Bergson: Thank you ciska[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: fingers crossed for it Bejiita[13:43] Siggi Ludwig (ludwig.john): thank you an good night[13:44] Mick Nerido: Thanks see you next class[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hope it works[13:44] Doodus Moose: thanks all, this was really enjoyable :)[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: good day/night all :)[13:44] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..it was very interesting:)[13:44] Bilthor Esharham: Very thanks ....and good night for all.[13:44] Bilthor Esharham: bye[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: bye folks[13:44] Bilthor Esharham: Namaarie[13:44] herman Bergson: Bye Bilthor
What I try to achieve with my project "The Mystery of the Brain" is to demonstrate where nature ends and philosophical wonder begins.For now, we aren't yet close to that dividing line. I try to show you how emotions are not special ingredients of an abstract mind, but clear biological processes.Being biological it means, that our emotions are the result of a long evolutionary process. And last lecture it was Joy and Happiness, today it is Grief and Sadness.Like with joy and happiness, sadness is not so much an emotion as happiness, but more a mood, mainly colored by the emotion of grief.If there already was little scientific research on the emotion of joy, grief is far more unpopular as subject of scientific research.It is a bit odd, because we would love to know how to escape from grief, which even may develop into depression. Fortunately the latter gets more scientific attention.But let's focus on grief. Grief arises after a loss or a disappointment, but only when one is not itself culpable.If you think you are culpable for causing the grief, an other emotion kicks in: guilt. We'll discuss that emotion later.If somebody else is responsible for your grief, then it also isn't really grief you will experience, but rather anger or indignation.Guilt and aggression can easily mix with the emotion of grief, but there is a difference. There even is a functional difference. I'll get to that later.From a biological point of view our main question is: What is the evolutionary advantage of experiencing grief?? Wouldn't it have been better if evolution had discarded of the emotion of grief? How can grief have contributed to the evolution of the homo sapiens?Let us take as an example a clear case of real grief: the loss of a dear friend or a close relative. What is the effect of grief on us? Threefold: cognitive, physical and social.In the first place cognitively we can observe that grief drains our energy. The body even reduces its energy level. We retreat into ourself, look inward. We seem to have lost interest in the outer world.But this has a positive side: we re-examine our goals (in life). Think about how life can make sense by confronting you with death. Looking inward protects us for more grief. For instance the confrontation with personal things of the deceased.An other example: 40.000 years ago one of our ancestors, a male is rejected for the third time by a female he feels strongly attracted to. He is in deep grief….Sits apart from the group, but in his mind the grief brings him to re-evaluate his situation. Should he choose other company for the hunt? Should he concentrate on his personal skills and perfect these? His grief leads to a new perspective.So much about the cognitive effect. Physically the grieving person feels inactive, weak and washed-out. Even the metabolism slows down. The body is saving energy.On the other hand, it is a known fact now that physical activity is a good antidote against grief. It is called "Running Therapy", physical action prescribed to depressive people. It works.But nature has its own therapy in normal cases of grief…. often grief alternates with anger, which creates an energy boost in the body again. You feel angry because it is so unjust, that he died so young. Well you know the examples…..Finally the social meaning of grief: it brings people together. It strengthens the social bonds. The death of a member of the tribe is always embedded in a ritual and ceremony for the group.So, from an evolutionary point of view grief is a real positive emotion: it brings people to reconsider the goals in their life, the meaning of life, think of new perspectives and it works as a socially binding force in the group.
The Discussion[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you...:)[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so you are saying grief is biological only??[13:26] herman Bergson: If you have any questionor remarks...[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what did i miss[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma..it is a part of our system...we cant get rid of it....it is in our genes...[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok[13:26] herman Bergson: all over the world ..all people experience grief[13:26] Henk Honi: sometimes you have no time to grieve[13:27] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): but what you say sounds so positive.. cannot be[13:27] Kyra Neutron: you have time to sleep..dont you ?[13:27] herman Bergson: that is just a matter of circumstances Henk..[13:27] Henk Honi: yes[13:27] Henk Honi: can therefore influence[13:28] Merel Heron: it is good to hear professor that grief or depression can have a good reaction on running actions[13:28] Mick Nerido: Grief bring us back to harsh reality it make us more circumspect[13:28] herman Bergson: main point here is that grief is a basic emotion,,general to the homo sapiens…to all humans on earth so to speak[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true[13:28] herman Bergson: Oh Merel....[13:28] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that must be true[13:29] herman Bergson: Physical excercise is good for the body but also good for the brain....[13:29] Henk Honi: therefore a kind of protection?[13:29] Henk Honi: that can help us[13:29] Kyra Neutron: grief may lead you to commit suicide too...[13:30] herman Bergson: People with depression..which is a deep form of grief are really helped by getting into physical action…[13:30] Merel Heron: mmmmm[13:30] Mick Nerido: If it leads to suicide its evolution dead end[13:31] Kyra Neutron: idk Henk..but i wouldnt feel the helping hand of angels..when i loose my kid...and run into grief...[13:31] Kyra Neutron: lovely antichrist..[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Mick...is weird end of an organism...to delete itself...[13:31] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed[13:32] Kyra Neutron: what universe wins from grief herman?[13:32] Mick Nerido: If you can't handle grief you don't survive[13:32] herman Bergson: The only help for grief is in yourself and in the support of the group around you[13:32] Kyra Neutron: but..you dont have to survive...[13:32] Kyra Neutron: it is your wish to survive..[13:32] herman Bergson: no...Kyra..survival isn't an obligation....[13:33] Kyra Neutron: you sure herman ?[13:33] herman Bergson: oh yes...[13:33] herman Bergson: To be alive is just a coincidence[13:33] herman Bergson: was because your parents once made love[13:33] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:33] Kyra Neutron: lovely biology..[13:34] herman Bergson: yes..there you are!!!!!..[13:34] Kyra Neutron: hahahah[13:34] Doodus Moose: it's good to know my parents got along _once_[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)[13:34] Kyra Neutron: sticks out tongue to Mick...[13:34] herman Bergson: lol...ok Doodus..[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:34] Kyra Neutron: see..the prof says survival is not needed..[13:34] Kyra Neutron: silly boy...[13:34] herman Bergson: no no..that is NOT what I said...[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hahah[13:35] herman Bergson: Survival is the basic drive of the organism..any organism...[13:35] Kyra Neutron: trying to keep laugh in a low decibel[13:35] herman Bergson: that there are some members of the group that want to end their lives deliberately...well...[13:35] Mick Nerido: Suicide is nature's way of saying you don't count[13:35] Kyra Neutron: no mick[13:36] herman Bergson: No mick…..[13:36] Henk Honi: Can you influence yourself well, sadness?[13:36] Kyra Neutron: suicide is the result...[13:36] Kyra Neutron: that at the point..you cant bare more pain[13:36] Kyra Neutron: and loss of kid..is one of them[13:36] Henk Honi: yes it are[13:36] Merel Heron: i really think that depression is a illness[13:36] Kyra Neutron: it does?[13:37] Henk Honi: yes i think to[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): loss of anyone close is grief most of the time[13:37] Merel Heron: i have read the book of Dick Swaab[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes depression is even a brain illness Merel[13:37] Kyra Neutron: and guilt..[13:37] Kyra Neutron: that will trigger it[13:37] Henk Honi: yes[13:37] Kyra Neutron: which herman politely avoided to tell us[13:37] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:37] Merel Heron: and i know now that it isn't easy to cure this feeling of total sadness[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we should know taht by now[13:37] herman Bergson smiles at Kyra[13:37] Mick Nerido: If grief is too much it is the answer for the individual, but it is a taboo because it is bad for the race[13:38] herman Bergson: Well...in general....[13:38] Kyra Neutron: wigs her invisible taily happily..to be approved at final[13:39] herman Bergson: a common saying is that you learn and grow by the suffering you experience....the pains and troubles[13:39] herman Bergson: the grief you have to endure...[13:39] Doodus Moose: YES - because this is the only time you deal with such things[13:39] Merel Heron: pppffff that is something to say ![13:39] Mick Nerido: We are all here because our ancesters could get over grief and move on[13:39] Henk Honi: so maybe that will help you, some[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i would agree with that![13:40] Kyra Neutron: hmmm..no..we are here coz they had at least one clever woman..to do things right..[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there has always been grief if it is part of genetic makeup[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....the behavioral system of grief, the emotion, was favorable for survival, it seems...[13:41] Mick Nerido: Religion deals with grief, some people only turn to religion in grief[13:41] herman Bergson: yes Gemma....like Joy , grief is a basic emioton of the organism....[13:42] herman Bergson: religion is the cultural sauce on grief...:-)[13:42] Merel Heron: but grief makes you also very lonely[13:42] Mick Nerido: All clutures have rituals for dealing with grief[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Merel....griefs turns your mind inward....you close up for others[13:42] Kyra Neutron: looks surprised..and wanders..wasnt religion part of the reason to grief?[13:42] Henk Honi: grief can be so empowering?[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Henk....[13:43] Henk Honi: make you stonger[13:43] Henk Honi: yes maby[13:43] herman Bergson: The rituals are for instance ways to turn grief into an empowering feeling...[13:43] Henk Honi: maby hard to?[13:43] herman Bergson: for instance to celebrate that the deceased has passed over to a better life[13:44] Henk Honi: yes i think it can[13:44] Kyra Neutron: yes..and we do believe it? so it loweres our pain ?[13:44] herman Bergson: so let's support him on his way to the better world....[13:44] Henk Honi: we trry[13:44] herman Bergson: put a coin in his mouth to pay Charon for instance[13:44] Mick Nerido: Knowing that others have felt as you do strenthens bonds good for the group[13:44] herman Bergson: or like the Pharaos in Egypte...give him all he needs on his journey to the afterlife[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes that was what I mentioned Mick....the social effect of sharing with the grieving people[13:45] Kyra Neutron: and put some beauty housemaids into the bag too..[13:45] Mick Nerido: Right[13:46] herman Bergson: 72 virgins even Kyra...![13:46] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh brother[13:46] Mick Nerido: Him too[13:46] herman Bergson: I wonder what a muslim woman gets when she dies???[13:46] Kyra Neutron: oh man...[13:46] Kyra Neutron: many many nuri's[13:46] herman Bergson: 72 stuts?[13:47] Kyra Neutron: virgin males..[13:47] Mick Nerido: She gets to take off her berka[13:47] Doodus Moose: ....virgin males....[13:47] Kyra Neutron: just for that it worths to kick the ass of greek gods[13:47] herman Bergson: Hmmm..let's not go into detail here ^_^[13:47] Merel Heron whispers: do they exist virgin males ?[13:47] Kyra Neutron: hahahha oks[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hahah[13:47] Henk Honi: :))[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: *Ggg*[13:48] Kyra Neutron: thats why it is called heaven Merel..[13:48] Henk Honi: yes i think,[13:48] Kyra Neutron: you believe anything given..[13:48] herman Bergson: I think. that the idea is clear....[13:48] Merel Heron: ahaaaa[13:48] herman Bergson: grief is a basic emotion....a drive to set a series of behaviors in action...[13:49] Henk Honi: it's so different for everyone[13:49] Henk Honi: i think[13:49] Mick Nerido: I thing the mind remember good things easier than sad things, why?[13:49] herman Bergson: In fact to solve the problem.....which is the feeling of sadness...[13:50] Bejiita Imako: because u dont wanna feel sad but happy and thus rather remember happy things[13:50] herman Bergson: Maybe that is even a physiological matter Mick...[13:50] Kyra Neutron: it is subjective i believe..[13:50] herman Bergson: good things...feeling good is related to the production of dopamine in the brain....[13:50] Merel Heron: we all want to be happy[13:50] herman Bergson: we are addicted to that[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:50] Bejiita Imako: i dont wanna feel sad but happy[13:50] herman Bergson: so remembering good things produces the dopamine again[13:50] Bejiita Imako: as happy I can[13:51] Merel Heron: but sadness make you wonder what is life about[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Merel....very true....[13:51] herman Bergson: and the answer can lead to a good feeling….[13:51] herman Bergson: or the bad feeling that life makes no sense at all...[13:51] Henk Honi: makes life intense, grief?[13:52] Henk Honi: ups and downs[13:52] herman Bergson: which in fact is a good feeling too...saves you a lot of pondering about life[13:52] Doodus Moose: yes Henk - gives life dimension[13:52] Henk Honi: yes i think to[13:52] herman Bergson: Well..it is a point..that especially christianity sees grief as a positive feeling..[13:52] Kyra Neutron: herman..you'll make us believe..that everything that is done for good...[13:53] Doodus Moose: [13:53] herman Bergson: what do you mean Kyra[13:53] Kyra Neutron: grief is a good aim..[13:53] Henk Honi: they collide with eachother sadness and happiness?[13:53] Kyra Neutron: sadness..is a good aim..[13:54] Kyra Neutron: even …we'll trigger the despair for good...[13:54] Kyra Neutron: hey..isnt there any badness ?[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): crash[13:54] herman Bergson: well....through the many centuries of evolution the central nervous system has developed the emotion of grief...[13:54] Henk Honi: Yes welcom back[13:54] Bejiita Imako: wb[13:54] Merel Heron: songs are often about sad feelings[13:55] herman Bergson: that is..a behavioral system to deal with for instance the loss of a relative...a member of the tribe...[13:55] Kyra Neutron: mr. evolution has its motive for itself..and we know we are griefing for good ?[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herman the donation book is not working[13:55] Merel Heron: may be the sad feeling is stronger then the happy feelings ?[13:55] Mick Nerido: Thanks I must go[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: theoretically it is so logical: -) however practically, it looks often differently ;-) see you all @ Thursday - ty herman & Class!!![13:55] herman Bergson: sorry...[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will try to be here thursday[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye :-)[13:55] Bejiita Imako: bye Mick[[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: bye bergfrau - bye mick[13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): time to go now[13:56] Kyra Neutron: good night all..and forgive an ass demon..[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ok cu gemma[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: bye gemma[13:56] Kyra Neutron: it was a nice class[13:56] herman Bergson: Ok....time to dismiss class....:-)[13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡ [13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaa interesting again[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:56] herman Bergson: dont feel sad about it....we'll be back on Thusrday ^_^[13:57] Doodus Moose: :-)[13:57] Bejiita Imako: yes ㋡[13:57] Bejiita Imako: cu all tehn[13:57] Bejiita Imako: then[13:57] Kyra Neutron: salutes[13:57] Kyra Neutron: :)[13:57] Henk Honi: bye all[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: bye all[13:57] Merel Heron: thank you again prof Bergson .[13:57] Merel Heron: bye bye
In January 2010 we completed our project on Modern Theories of Ethics and in the concluding lecture I said this:-quoteMan is a creature who by nature has values. There are things,states of affairs, and activities that he directly enjoys, prizes, or values. Moral choices and decisions arise only in those situations in which there are competing desires or a conflict of values. The problem that a man then confronts is to decide what he really wants and what course of action he ought to pursue. He cannot appeal to his immediate values to resolve the situation; he must evaluate or appraise the situation and the different courses of action open to him. This process of deliberation that culminates in a decision to act is what Dewey (1859 - 1952) calls “valuation.” But how do we engage in this process of valuation?For this we need to accept a few basic assumptions. The first one is that as a species humans are basically the same all world with regard to physiology and neurobiology.The second assumption is that the quality of life is achieved by reason and intelligence, These qualities give us the power of rationality, which means that education is essential and learning a lifetime activity.The third assumption is what we find in virtue ethics which presupposes reasonable , positive qualities in man based on finding the mean between extremes, the virtue, or what Dewey would describe as the interaction of the organism with his environment.In this interaction, which has an evolutionary origin, we learn to live together and are able to realize all virtues in ourselves.I don't mean to say that we eventually will become all Saints, but this interaction with our environment began when man discovered himself.And I think that we are maybe still at the beginning of this process, but if we are willing to accept that the human being is a learning and adaptive organism we will follow our virtues, guided by reason more and more to improve the human condition.- end quoteThis was the philosophical aproach and rationality is mentioned as the tool to find solutions. Now it is fascinating, that I last lecture said more or less the same thing, but then from a biological perspective.Rationality is indeed the most important tool of survival of the homo sapiens, but I put it in a larger context now: the context of our total being, in which rationality is just one member in the orchestra of survival mechanisms.In evolution emotions, as defined in the former lecture as a driving force, which as an orchestra conductor ensures, that a number of specific behavioral systems run in parallel and work together to solve an acute problem, were prior to the emergence of rationality.Today we change the face of the earth. A new situation for a lot of species, with which they can not cope. They don't come up with new solutions. They just get extinct. Only the lucky ones succeed to adapt now and then.And there is the difference: the development of the prefrontal cortex has enabled homo sapiens to cope with new situations by inventing new solutions.What fascinates me the most is, that you can see how today a philosophical approach converges with our present mainly biological approach of homo sapiens.The fundamental question is, is a universal ethics possible, a global society? Is that what we see happening in this world, when we see in 1989 the collapse of the communist system and today the collapse of dictatorial systems in the arabic countries?Is what we call democracy an evolutionary result of the continuing interaction between the brain and its environment?It is not so, that with our democracy we live in an ideal world, but is it said too much, if I say that at least compared to other places in the world this is a better place to be.A place that allows us to life more freely with our basic emotions as (the lack of) fear, joy, grief, anger, marvel, disgust. Behavioral mechanisms wired deeply in our brain, that brought us through evolution, where we now are?In our next lectures we'll continue our research of homo sapiens and his emotions from this biological perspective. So…. see you next lecture again.The Discussion[13:29] herman Bergson: Thank you ㋡[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:30] Anja Tigerfish: ㋡[13:30] Anja Tigerfish: ㋡[13:30] herman Bergson: A nice sound of silence ^_^[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very nice[13:30] Bejiita Imako: aaa[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thinking it through[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes ..so I did ^_^[13:31] herman Bergson: Something IS going on in this world.....[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed[13:31] herman Bergson: I forgot to mention china![13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes[13:31] Mick Nerido: The internet and closer communication is speeding up that change[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): A global society meaning one that functions for the good of the majority (democracy) is virtuous and moral only for the majority[13:32] herman Bergson: Maybe not so much internet....it is bit overestimated I htink....[13:32] herman Bergson: Just television..news media.....[13:32] herman Bergson: people all over the world can see how other societies look like....[13:33] Cain Levasseur: personally think that democracy isnt the "ultimate" political system for a global society[13:33] herman Bergson: I saw an egiptian man in the news....[13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what is going on now is amazing and such a question how it will all end[13:33] herman Bergson: the only thing he said was....We are entitled to a better life...![13:33] Cain Levasseur: just think about China.. a power that in 20-40 years will be the 1ºst economic power[13:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think so too[13:34] Cain Levasseur: and its a Communist dictatorship with free market economy[13:34] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): i hope this Egytian man is right..[13:34] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): revolution usually only replaces oppressors[13:34] herman Bergson: We'll see Arstotle...we'll see...[13:34] Cain Levasseur: ¿and why works better? cause its a regime with a strong discipline (Example: Corrupt politicians are executed)[13:34] herman Bergson: amazing historical experiment![13:34] Bejiita Imako: hmm what i dont like about china is the government threat people like machines letting them working to death building xboxes and so and just replace, just like a machine[13:34] Bejiita Imako: no value to human life at all[13:34] Bejiita Imako: terrible[13:35] herman Bergson: Let's not discuss particulars about regimes....[13:35] Cain Levasseur: im not talking about if i like or not China, or USA, or whatever, im talking about what political system works best for large amount of people[13:35] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): my anxiety comes form wondering how secular this current revolution is[13:35] herman Bergson: Let's look at the global picture....[13:35] druth Vlodovic: china can't last too long, people have seen that a better life is possible, and will only put up with so much[13:35] Cain Levasseur: looking foward for a global society[13:35] Bejiita Imako: a democracy i also would think seem the best for now[13:36] druth Vlodovic: "the best for all" is turning into the best survival strategy[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Druth.....[13:36] Bejiita Imako: however as most have it now its indirect and we chose a political party that then do whatever they want[13:36] Mick Nerido: The competition for resources is risky for peace[13:37] herman Bergson: That is the point Mick.....[13:37] herman Bergson: to some extend we succeed in a reasonable distibution of resources in our society[13:37] Bejiita Imako: not optimal in sweden either, the party we have now seem only care about the rich while letting ordinary people drop out of insurance unless they get a job but there arent any jobbs[13:38] Cain Levasseur: ¿what do you think about looking the humanity as a single organism?[13:38] herman Bergson: No...dont look at the political details ...[13:38] Bejiita Imako: the party think its easy but it isnt cause they dont go out and see the reality[13:38] herman Bergson: look at the global picture...[13:38] herman Bergson: in the West we succeed in a reasonable equal distribition of resources...[13:38] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): being the center of the universe, I am concerned with how a revolution will impact me and mine, not so much the greater good[13:38] Mick Nerido: We all are in one boat so we must learn to get along or else...[13:39] Bejiita Imako: some adjustments are needed but democracy is the best[13:39] Bejiita Imako: let the people decide[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats it[13:39] Bejiita Imako: how it should be[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: like in belgium[13:39] Mick Nerido: Majority rule[13:39] druth Vlodovic: those with power (and money) will always use it to accumulate more power, we need a system or method of frequent redistribution[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL how moral is it for 6 of 10 people to dictate to the remaing 4?[13:39] Cain Levasseur: Thats for Europe, cause in USA and South America the resources arent equally distributed[13:39] Cain Levasseur: and we all have democracies[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)[13:40] druth Vlodovic: so far the only non-violent system I've seen that does this (or tries) is forms of democracy[13:40] herman Bergson: What is going on since 1989 is the general drive to achieve equal distribution of resources....education, healthcare...jobs...and so on[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): taking lots of time tho'[13:41] Mick Nerido: The idea of souvernty is risky for peace also[13:41] druth Vlodovic: anything that is to last must have a firm foundation, and a firm foundation needs time to develop[13:41] herman Bergson: Loos at Saoudi Arabia...[13:41] herman Bergson: look[13:42] herman Bergson: All of a sudden the king can free 7 billion dollars for stimulating houses, stimulating small enterprises etc...[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: dubai-quatar--why aren't there any uprisings[13:42] herman Bergson: all of a sudden the money can be shared...[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the cost of those resources will foment many other world tensions now[13:43] Cain Levasseur: on the other hand, USA is going from a democracy to a dictatorship slowly[13:43] Cain Levasseur: like all the empires[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope not[13:43] Mick Nerido: The US will be less important[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :) yes, Cain I was wondering how the USgovernment would handle such are rebellion[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we may find out if this wisconsin business moves across the land[13:44] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): i think the Arab king has the fear to loose his crown[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL, yes don't mess with folks who have money[13:44] Cain Levasseur: i think that talk about a world society its talk about international politics :)[13:44] herman Bergson: Regardless all kinds of national politics....I have a feeling something is happening outhtere in line with the issues we are discussion here[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what we need is one alien to show up then we will see ...[13:45] Mick Nerido: The US is less rich it will have to learn to be a batter world citizen[13:45] herman Bergson: I have thought about that Gemma...[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the conflict between emotion and ratio is a mighty battle, for socity as well as the individual[13:45] herman Bergson: But aliens are in fact completely uninteresting....[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the us has always been a good world citizen with helping countries in need[13:46] herman Bergson: they are just more of the same....[13:46] Cain Levasseur: Gemma, thats not true[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in spite of our problems[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes[13:46] Bejiita Imako: they also like to start wars[13:46] Cain Levasseur: i live in South America, and what you say its so untrue[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but not a discussion for here[13:46] herman Bergson: .[13:46] Cain Levasseur: right[13:46] herman Bergson: But plz...go to a more abstract level...[13:46] Mick Nerido: Intersting times indeed![13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): as an American I choose not to be a world citizen, I am sovereign[13:47] herman Bergson: plz...[13:47] Bejiita Imako: us have both good and bad sides like all other places[13:47] herman Bergson: what we are investigating here is the brain....[13:48] herman Bergson: and the idea is that all human beings have the same hardware on board: the brain....[13:48] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): my point is we are all individuals and collective action with harm someone[13:48] Mick Nerido: An alian landing here would not understand our politics[13:48] herman Bergson: I am not interested in aliens....[13:49] Bejiita Imako: one thing i don't get is why all those ex dictators seem to lack one thing that i thought was something most people have[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): morality and virtue, I think starts with the individual[13:49] Bejiita Imako: care for other people[13:49] Bejiita Imako: they have no feelings for others[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and feel no guilt[13:49] Mick Nerido: Power corrupts[13:49] herman Bergson: I am interested in the fact that the species homo spaiens is the same all over the world....and at the end the species is heading for the same goal...survival...[13:49] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): the only feeling is about themselves[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes they don't think like u should[13:50] Mick Nerido: Survival of the fittest?[13:50] Bejiita Imako: that if I was one of "them" would i wanted to be treated like thrash,[13:50] herman Bergson: no...Mick..that is a misconception.....[13:50] herman Bergson: Survival of the fittest means..best adapted to its environment...[13:51] Bejiita Imako: but they instead think I am not them I am better that them so i can kill them or something like that[13:51] Mick Nerido: So the best adapted society will survive[13:51] herman Bergson: Ye Bejiita...our brainis still wired based on tribal drives..[13:51] Bejiita Imako: one thing is for sure these dictators must go away[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): have to leave early .. have a new club to open today[[13:52] herman Bergson: Good luck Gemma![13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:52] Bejiita Imako: north korea is worst example, that kim yong only care for his wealth and doomsday weapons while letting all his people die[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: Enjoy Gemma )[[13:52] Cain Levasseur: i think that a global society truly connected, like 1 country, its inminent[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....NorthKorea inthis context is a really weird experiment[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: afk[13:53] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the Roman Empire could not sustain itself, no way a one world government will work[13:53] herman Bergson: But don't forget...in every group you have the extremes[13:53] Mick Nerido: I must leave, thanks for a stimulating talk Bye[13:54] Cain Levasseur: ¿what do you think about UN Aristotle?[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): central governments can only abuse[13:54] Bejiita Imako: make me really sad, I mean how can u be such a swine and also seem like u just could end the entire world with nuclear weapons wothout a blink[13:54] Bejiita Imako: thats really dangerous people[13:54] Bejiita Imako: or people, monsters i would say[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think the UN is ineffective[13:55] herman Bergson: Aristotle..you think based on how it is today.....[13:55] herman Bergson: and project that into the future...[13:55] Cain Levasseur: i study international laws and i can tell you that it isnt ineffective.. it solves many many problems that in the past would mean war[13:55] Bejiita Imako: wonder how Kim yongs head is wired really[13:55] BALDUR Joubert: best solution would be huxley's brave new world..[13:55] Bejiita Imako: some cable must be loose for sure[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it is frightening to ponder our socital path[13:55] herman Bergson: no Baldur on the contrary[13:56] druth Vlodovic: things are getting better, but it is not a steady walk towards paradise[13:56] Cain Levasseur: a one world government doesn't mean a terrible dictatorship i think[13:56] herman Bergson: exactly Druth....[13:56] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. why not we have all it need to get there..and what did shakespeare really bring for humanitry[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): as long as 'Adam and Eve' exists, paradise is lost I fear[13:56] Bejiita Imako: important thing is that we all help each other to make the world go around and where all can be happy[13:57] Bejiita Imako: no wars no massacres on others[13:57] herman Bergson: Right Bejiita....[13:57] Bejiita Imako: im sooo tired of that[13:57] Bejiita Imako: lets be kind[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): i agree Bejiita, lets respect each other as individuals[13:57] BALDUR Joubert: bejiita.. soon 2 billion people won't achieve that..[13:57] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:58] herman Bergson: I think we are in the middle of an evolutionary change....[13:58] Bejiita Imako: that should be a natural thing to do[13:58] Bejiita Imako: as said all those dictators must have something wrong wired in the brain[13:59] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think you may be right Herman, the control factor will be either emotional or rational[13:59] herman Bergson: Ok...[13:59] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:59] Cain Levasseur: i think the may or change its that people are waking up, and using their brains[13:59] herman Bergson: I think we just saved the world with our discussion.....[13:59] Cain Levasseur: a dictatorship can only be hold for example on scared uninformed people[14:00] herman Bergson: So time to thank you all for your participation...[14:00] Bejiita Imako: yes[14:00] Bejiita Imako: really interesting again this:)[14:00] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.... ^_^[14:00] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL, the internet plays a big part in self enlightenment...something governments probalty abhore[14:00] Cain Levasseur: right Aristotle[14:00] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thanks you Professor[14:00] herman Bergson: That is crear Aristotle[14:01] herman Bergson: clear[14:01] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think it is instrumental in Arabia now[14:01] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): yes true Ari[14:01] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): young people are not afraid anymore[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty! Class and herman![[14:02] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes so thats why they control the internet in chine and ordinary people in north korea are completely isolated rom that and all the rest of the world, and now i read don't even have food and power[14:02] Bejiita Imako: awful[14:02] Bejiita Imako: I want a better world[14:02] Bejiita Imako: and a nice party with q[14:02] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): all the folks here in the US are so far subdued, this move aginast people with money and benefits may change that[14:02] Bejiita Imako: at the new place[14:02] Bejiita Imako: going there now[14:02] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[14:02] Bejiita Imako: cu all soon again[14:02] Bejiita Imako: hugs ㋡[14:03] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bejiita[14:03] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Bejiita[14:03] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): enjoy your new world:)[14:03] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[14:03] herman Bergson: Enjoy the party Bejiita![14:03] Cain Levasseur: i like to watch when people critic China[14:03] Bejiita Imako: aaa ㋡[14:03] Ciska Riverstone: Thank you Herman - thank you all - cu next week[14:03] Cain Levasseur: and its media[14:03] Cain Levasseur: cause our media its also censored[14:03] herman Bergson: Bye ciska :-)[14:04] Cain Levasseur: Bye all, thank you professor[14:04] Rodney Handrick: thanks Herman[14:04] herman Bergson: My pleasure , Cain ㋡[14:04] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): no such thing as the free press anymore, Jefferson is rolling over in his grave[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all:-)[14:04] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye bergie[14:04] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)[14:04] Anja Tigerfish: Namaarie[14:04] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•[14:05] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): RL is calling......goodbye all[14:05] Anja Tigerfish: bye[14:05] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thanks again Herman[14:05] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•[14:05] Anja Tigerfish: bye[14:05] herman Bergson: Tag Anja![14:05] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Gute nacht Anja[14:06] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye all..thank you Herman:)[14:06] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje[14:07] druth Vlodovic: lol, sorry herman, baldur and I are iming[14:08] herman Bergson: ok...enjoy....[14:08] druth Vlodovic: it was a good presentation, thank you[14:08] herman Bergson: thank you
