381: The Brain, determinism and Free Will

In The Critique of Pure Reason (first published in 1781), the German philosopher Immanuel Kant maintained that causation was one of the fundamental concepts that rendered the empirical world comprehensible to humans.

By the beginning of the twenty-first century, psychology was beginning to show just how pervasive human reasoning concerning cause and effect is.

Even young children seem to naturally organize their knowledge of the world according to relations of cause and effect.

Causal determinism states that future events are necessitated by past and present events combined with the laws of nature.

Imagine an entity that knows all facts about the past and the present, and knows all natural laws that govern the universe.

If the laws of nature were determinate, then such an entity would be able to use this knowledge to foresee the future, down to the smallest detail.

Biological determinism is the idea that all behaviors, beliefs, and desires are fixed by our genetic endowment and our biochemical makeup, the latter of which is affected by both genes and environment.

These interpretations of determinism leave little room for a free will. On the other hand, suppose your free will means your ability to choose A over B…just like that.

No reason for the choice…just out of the blue you choose A, because you are driven by free will. Somehow that doesn't feel good. You think, you need a motivation for your choice.

But was it free will then, or a choice determined by motives. And where do those motives come from? Aren't they caused by other thoughts or experiences?

Somehow we must find some explanation, that allows causation and on the other hand can not causally explain, why we chose A over B, which could mean that determinism is compatible with free will.

We could argue that determinism does not matter; what matters is that individuals' wills are the result of their own desires and are not overridden by some external force.

So, what is free will. Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679), claimed that a person acts on their own only when the person wanted to do the act and the person could have done otherwise, if the person had decided to.

You also can speak of free will as positive liberty, defined as having the power and resources to fulfill one's own potential (this may include freedom from internal constraints), as opposed to negative liberty, which is freedom from external restraint.

But you also could argue that there are cases where a coerced individual's choices are still free because such coercion coincides with the individual's personal intentions and desires.

David Hume (1711 - 1776) discussed the possibility that the entire debate about free will is nothing more than a merely "verbal" issue.

He suggested that it might be accounted for by "a false sensation or seeming experience" which is associated with many of our actions when we perform them. On reflection, we realize that they were necessary and determined all along.

It seems that we don't need brain scans and neuroscientific evidence to come to the conclusion, that the idea of free will is a verbal issue.

Just think about the meaning of the word "free" in relation to willing. Free from what? We can not act without a reason or a cause. And if we can not find one, Freud has taught us that there are many subconscious reasons too.

So, free will, is it really that interesting? Did Hobbes define the idea of free here the best? We act and we take responsibility for our actions, that is how the system works.


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:24] Jaelle Faerye: Thank you Herman
[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well yes, thats a clear statement of the dilemma
[13:25] herman Bergson: it is up to your free will to react or have a question ㋡
[13:25] herman Bergson: YES MERLIN....
[13:25] Sybyle Perdide: thank you
[13:25] Mick Nerido: If i were to throw dice to determine a choice that would be free will?
[13:25] herman Bergson: The more I studied the subject the less I got interested in that concept of "free"
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Even dice are not truly random
[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: "free" is the keyword
[13:26] herman Bergson: Mick, there was a reason to use dice
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Jaelle...
[13:26] herman Bergson: and to be honest..don't know what to do with it
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: haaa
[13:27] Mick Nerido: to eliminate my choice leaving it purely to chance
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: haven't you aver done that, Mick?
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: throw dice
[13:27] herman Bergson: you wouldnt accept that Mick
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: or flip a coin
[13:27] druth Vlodovic: I suspect that part of the problem is the idea of an unchangeable" core self"
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have sometimes tossed a coin
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: and find out you want the OTHER solution
[13:27] Mick Nerido: i threw a dart at a map to choose a vacation destination
[13:27] herman Bergson: all actions that are rationalisations of a situation
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:28] Mick Nerido: vacation
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah'
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: and the dice or coin can help us see what we don't want
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I'm very interested in divination actually.
[13:28] druth Vlodovic: lol "asking for advice just means you know what you want to do and don't like it."
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: just clarify the choice as unacceptable
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: maybe
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Druth ^_^
[13:29] herman Bergson: let me put it this way....
[13:29] Jaelle Faerye: or maybe you respect someone's insight and you want to get another way of thinking around your issue
[13:29] herman Bergson: we behave...choose al the time...90% subconsciously even....
[13:29] herman Bergson: but in conscious choices........
[13:30] herman Bergson: I think there is the ability to veto our choice...
[13:30] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): is reacting on a trigger free will?...even if the reaction is very bad and you never have chosen if you had the choise?
[13:31] herman Bergson: like the golf player swings his club an d in a split second says "No, not the good swing" and misses the ball
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but why would you want to play a bad swing
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ?
[13:31] herman Bergson: we are conditioned to a high level in behavior Beertje..yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: No Bekiita....
[13:32] herman Bergson: in the movement of the swing he feels it isnt the right one
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: i want to hit the ball as good as i call all times sometimes very good otherwise it go not as good but i always try to go for the best shot possible
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): so reacting on a trigger is free will?...did I understood that right?
[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: if you practice something oftenly it belongs to subconsciousness
[13:33] druth Vlodovic: if you can train your trigger then it can be
[13:33] herman Bergson: no Beertje..that is conditioned behavior...
[13:33] herman Bergson: What is the meaning of all advertising???To deprive us of our free will
[[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: depends
[13:34] herman Bergson: Bu tin the store..at the very moment we buy the producct ..in a split second...we can say NO
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: i use to say that some of it can be good to inform us about a good product and then it also SHOULD be good
[13:34] Mick Nerido: advertising tries to sell us something not deprive us of free will
[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: depends what you call advertising
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: however they don't have to show coca cola commercials evenry now and then for example
[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: a billboard a sign
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: i already KNOW its a good product that taste good
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: something can INFORM you
[13:35] herman Bergson: no no...I understand....
[13:35] druth Vlodovic: it seeks to condition our responses, if you try to maintain consciousness of your decisions then the effect tends to be more limited
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: that there is a grocery here, for instance
[13:35] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): not every product that taste good is good for your health
[13:35] herman Bergson: we are not deprived of our free will , we are just influenced....biased eventually
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: advertising is not = information
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: okay
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats one thing indeed for example i don't drink a 2 litre bottle now and then but some people do and thats way too much sugar
[13:36] herman Bergson: no Lizzy…advertising is trying to control our will
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: nods
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: its tasty but should not drink too much
[13:36] druth Vlodovic: it's not coercion, though it is an attempt at conditioning
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: should
[13:36] herman Bergson: and in such situations...I think...
[13:36] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): they try us to believe that we can't live without the product
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: if you want to know what free will means is our ability to say NO at any given moment
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: like apple and their ipads and iphones
[13:36] Sybyle Perdide: if we are looking for free will, we have to find the gap between the different causes, that will work
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Advertisers would take away our free will if they could
[13:37] Sybyle Perdide: or better, if there is such a gap, in which we can act free
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: dont like apple at all esp not after i read about the workers in china commiting suicide
[13:37] Mick Nerido: thats right just say no.
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: made me really sad
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and their damn lock in policies
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Was that because they could not get the new phone?
[13:38] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): it's your free will to NOT bye the stuff bejiita
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: tried to get an ipod working for a friend but the damn software that they require itunes didnt want to work at all,
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: with other things u plug it in the usb transfer your stuff no prob
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: thats how it should be
[13:39] herman Bergson: At this moment I am inclined to say that free will is not defined by the freedom of wanting something, but by our ability to say NO...in any situation
[13:39] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): why so angry about that stuff Bejiita?..you don't have to buy that
[13:39] druth Vlodovic: you'd have to want to say "no" at some level
[13:39] Mick Nerido: I freely choose to be at Philosophy class lol
[13:40] herman Bergson: yes Mick...you could say NO at any moment and not come
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: if you see through the advertisement you can decide against the product
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: when it comes to stuff like that I am more for open solutions and luckily there are such ones too
[13:40] Mick Nerido: but there are many unconscious reasons I don'y
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes thats an important thing , to see through commercials and similar things
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Mick, but yet....
[13:41] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): i wiped my husband out free will from this chair behind the comp to be here in this class
[13:41] herman Bergson: at this moment ...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: i always think twice
[13:41] herman Bergson: if you want a definition of free will...
[13:41] Sybyle Perdide: please
[13:41] Sybyle Perdide: :)
[13:41] herman Bergson: I would say..our ability free from any coercion to say NO
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: the more knowledge you have the easier you can decide
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but i like to test new things and if they are good i stick with it if they are bad i look for something else
[13:42] Jaelle Faerye: i disagree Lizzy
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: to find just the things i want
[13:42] Jaelle Faerye: the more knowledge you have, the more options you see
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:42] Jaelle Faerye: the more difficult is the choice
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:43] herman Bergson: but youstill can say NO
[13:43] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:43] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): true Herman..everybody can say NO
[13:43] herman Bergson: whatever options you have...
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: u can laways do that indeed
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: what now, yes or no?
[13:44] herman Bergson: well..if determinism means that all our actions are caused ...then free willmeans...NO
[13:44] herman Bergson: which means...we ignore the causes and just say..I dont do it
[13:44] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:44] herman Bergson: for the rst we are ok by that fact that our actions are caused....
[13:45] herman Bergson: we go to the supermarket and buy the product that was advertized on tv...we don't care...but we could have said NO
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes at least partially depending on what it is to do at moment
[[13:46] Sybyle Perdide: but this no is caused on knowledge too
[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: because we have the knowledge about how advertisement is made
[13:46] Sybyle Perdide: it need not to be free will
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: if i work are at home for ex, choose actions depending from what my current action is
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...you could say that the NO is cause d by other inner causes....
[13:47] Sybyle Perdide: the difficulty is to get to a point where our different knowledges and so on are in standoff situation
[13:47] Mick Nerido: thats why i use chance when i am not sure
[13:47] Sybyle Perdide: but I don't know how to manage
[13:47] herman Bergson: for instance, because you hate to follow TV commercials by buying the products
[13:47] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): one has to feel good by saying NO..otherwise it's not a good choice
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes Beertje....
[13:48] herman Bergson: the NO is a personal victory :-)
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: or "yes"
[13:48] herman Bergson: smiles..
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: depending if u like it or not
[13:48] herman Bergson: OK Druth..now and then you may say YES
[13:48] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): is it all about personal victory..the free will I mean?
[13:49] druth Vlodovic: the secret I think is to be deliberate in making yourself into the sort of person you want to be, so your choices will follow
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: i think for example that this is interesting so therefore im here at the moment
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and also have many friends here thats another thing to it
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: stuff like that
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:49] Mick Nerido: when a girl says no does she mean yes?
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: if everbody sais NO you can say NO to the NO, what means Yes
[13:49] Jaelle Faerye: uh oh
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: makes me say yes to this
[13:49] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): nó Mick
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: u mean that they play hard to get when they like you or?
[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): she means no..
[13:50] druth Vlodovic: if your choice is just to pull against the mainstream then it's not really a choice,
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:50] herman Bergson: Simple and correct logic Lizzy...
[13:50] herman Bergson: when they all say NO you may say YES
[13:50] herman Bergson: which is equivalent to NO NO ㋡
[13:51] druth Vlodovic: for it to be a real choice it has to be carefully considered along a number of dimensions
[13:52] herman Bergson: You know.....
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: even if the final decision is what everyone else chose as well it is still worth it to go through the process of deeply considering it first
[13:52] herman Bergson: I hardly have an idea what free will is....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: its interesting subject for sure
[13:53] herman Bergson: I know that all behavior has causes....conscious and subconscious....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and tricky indeed
[13:53] Sybyle Perdide: is there someone who has an idea, Herman?
[13:53] Mick Nerido: it's something like liberty...
[13:54] herman Bergson: So when I can do what I do and nobody is keeping me from doing it...I guess I am using my free will in a deterministic context
[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: and what is liberty, .. a feeling only?!
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: id say many of my choises are based on what i do at moment but then i have based in that a group of actions i can take and choose between as i like
[13:54] herman Bergson: and that can define responsability....
[13:55] herman Bergson: I can try to kill some one....everybody would stop me...because of our moral rituals
[13:55] Mick Nerido: liberty means free to choose.
[13:55] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes things i know is wrong i cant make myself to choose on
[[13:55] Bejiita Imako: then its a no
e[13:56] herman Bergson: it is up to your own free will tho think about how fre you are to want things...
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: I remember the tactics i used on my kids to take away their choices without them knowing
[13:56] herman Bergson: I guess I have tortured your brains enough now...
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: "do you want a shower or a bath" only sounds like a choice... :)
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: same if i hold a very expensive vase, even if i could drop it free will i cant make myself to do it, or any other thing i dont want to break
[13:56] herman Bergson: So thank you all...
[13:56] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman
[13:57] Jaelle Faerye: thanks Herman
[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..
[[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] Sybyle Perdide: thank you Herman
[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: thanks to YOU Herman
[13:57] druth Vlodovic: thanks herman
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: tnx
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: really nice and interesting once again
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): very interesting Herman
[13:58] herman Bergson: Never knew that a free will could be so problematic ㋡
[13:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Anyone interested in psychology might be interested in a programme on Schizophrenia on BBC this morning.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b015sqc7
[13:58] herman Bergson: Ahh....
[13:58] herman Bergson: thnx Merlin!
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): YW Herman. I was thinking I should tell people at the time I heard it.
[13:59] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Still available on the web
[13:59] herman Bergson: Good idea Merlin!
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all

380: Eavesdropping on the Brain

Before continuing with the question of Free Will I'd like to bring to your attention what was in my newspaper this morning.

For the first time neuroscientists of Berkeley University in California have been able to translate brain activity into understandable words.

The technique is still in its early stages. To "read" whole sentences is still impossible and the eavesdropping only works when electrodes are placed directly on the brain.

Yet the results are amazing: 6 out of 18 words could be reconstructed from brain activity and made understandable.

There is a small brain area just above the ear, in which tiny brain parts become only active when for instance, we hear a word.

Each tiny group of neurons is activated by just one specific sound or vibration, just like the keys of a piano keyboard are related to one specific sound each.

Fifteen patients who already had to undergo brain surgery for another reason volunteered for the research team of Brian Pasley.

They all got a pad full of electrodes placed on the speech center of the brain. The electrodes registered precisely which braincells became active when certain words were heard. And a language recognition program was able to convert the resulting diagrams into speech.

This of course is far from reading someone's thoughts. Only what the patient hears is decoded. But there is a remarkable resemblance between how the brain "hears' speech and how it imagines speech.

This brings us back to the intentionality of consciousness. Thoughts are not just thoughts, but always thoughts about something and do we think in language? Is thinking a kind of inner speech.

This is a first step in analyzing how a brain decodes sound. Maybe the next step is, assuming we think in language, to discover how the brain formulates its thoughts.

Allthough the debate on free will is as old as philosophy, it is mainly due to the publicity about neuroscientific discoveries, that free will, and especially free will as an illusion is high on the agenda again.

But an illusion? Is our consciousness telling us stories. How does that work?

As an illustration, some strategy board games have rigorous rules in which no information (such as cards' face values) is hidden from either player and no random events (such as dice rolling) occur in the game.

Nevertheless, strategy games like chess and especially Go, with its simple deterministic rules, can have an extremely large number of unpredictable moves.

This could be analogue to how we function as organisms with a brain. The brain as a material thing is subject to deterministic laws of nature.

We interact with an environment that is controlled by the same deterministic limitation, but for every situation the brain can generate infinite and unpredictable behavior. Like you are in a candy store and don't know what to choose.

Yet, if all these events were accounted for, and there were a known way to evaluate these events, the seemingly unpredictable behavior would become predictable.

But that brain that shows a readiness-potential for a movement before we consciously decide to move, does that support the idea of free will being an illusion?

Take a golf payer. His brain shows already a readiness-potential before he consciously decides to swing his club.

The club swings down, but a split second before he hits the ball, he decides to miss, because he wants to give it another try. In other words, wasn't that th use of free will to choose what to do in this situation?

FOR YOUR INFORMATiON
----------------------------------------------------------------------
About the Berkely reach:
http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/01/31/scientists-decode-brain-waves-to-eavesdrop-on-what-we-hear/


The Discussion


[[2012/02/02 13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[2012/02/02 13:20] Bejiita Imako: but i miss sometimes yes
[2012/02/02 13:21] Bejiita Imako: but mostly i hit but i always want to hit the ball as good as possible
[2012/02/02 13:21] Shiva Rhapsody in Blue (rhaptuous.aura): apparently they'r hooking up military airplane pilots now to act on their thots before that can even move
[2012/02/02 13:21] herman Bergson: Ok Sybyle...
[2012/02/02 13:21] Lizzy Pleides: If we don't have a free will, then we are probably dominated by elematary insincts like hunger, being cold and reproduction
[2012/02/02 13:21] Shiva Rhapsody in Blue (rhaptuous.aura): *they
[2012/02/02 13:21] herman Bergson: Yes they do Shiva
[2012/02/02 13:21] Hokon Cazalet: why say that lizzy?
[2012/02/02 13:21] Bejiita Imako: its an interesting idea for sure this
[2012/02/02 13:21] Sybyle Perdide: if you can read in the brain reaction before they are executed it onl y tells about the relation between body and brain
[2012/02/02 13:21] Sybyle Perdide: not about consciousness and brain
[2012/02/02 13:22] herman Bergson: Yes I agree Sybyle....
[2012/02/02 13:22] herman Bergson: I am wondering about this relation myself....
[2012/02/02 13:22] Qwark Allen is Online
[2012/02/02 13:22] herman Bergson: but the brain performs already unconscious action
[2012/02/02 13:22] Mick Nerido: could the brain have many options available before "sending" signals
[2012/02/02 13:23] Lizzy Pleides: what is the reason for a decision when we don't have a free will?
[2012/02/02 13:23] Hokon Cazalet: rational calculation, higher feelings
[2012/02/02 13:23] Sybyle Perdide: hi Qwark
[2012/02/02 13:23] Bejiita Imako: hi Qwark
[[2012/02/02 13:23] Qwark Allen: Hey!
[2012/02/02 13:23] herman Bergson: Well that is the point Mick....the brain generates thousends of options in every situation....
[2012/02/02 13:23] Hokon Cazalet: my calculator has no free will, but isn't governing by any lower drive
[2012/02/02 13:24] herman Bergson: and some say that when we have picked an option we think it was based on free will
[2012/02/02 13:24] Hokon Cazalet: perhaps there isn't a psychical [mental] basis for our actions, perhaps its purely neurological
[2012/02/02 13:24] herman Bergson: No Hokon, becaue your calculator isn't conscious
[2012/02/02 13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh my
[2012/02/02 13:24] Hokon Cazalet: psychologists and philosophers, i've noticed, presume that for every psychical events, there must be another psychical thing that is the cause, but why is this so?
[2012/02/02 13:25] Hokon Cazalet: i agree herman
[2012/02/02 13:25] Sybyle Perdide: have we ever had a definition what free will means, Herman?
[2012/02/02 13:25] Hokon Cazalet: why cant the psychical be caused by the non-psychical @ lizzy
[2012/02/02 13:25] herman Bergson: in fact it is Hokon....
[2012/02/02 13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it seems to me most things are decided by will and others are aresponse to a stimulus
[2012/02/02 13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): automatic response
[2012/02/02 13:26] Mistyowl Warrhol: Our reflex actions are based on preconditioned actions from past activities. So in effect, the doing without thinking was something we conditioned ourselves to do. Does that not still make it something we wanted to do, so would that not still count as free will?
[2012/02/02 13:26] Lizzy Pleides: thats what i meant with instincts
[2012/02/02 13:26] Sybyle Perdide: nods to Gemma
[2012/02/02 13:26] Hokon Cazalet: my calculator was merely an example of a complex thing that acts without reference to "drives", perhaps human mental life has no mental basis ultimately
[2012/02/02 13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[2012/02/02 13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): reflexive
[2012/02/02 13:27] herman Bergson: The thesis here is that we are our brain....
[2012/02/02 13:27] Hokon Cazalet: instincts to me beg the question, why propose something else psychical [hunger etc], since we can ask what is their cause, and just apply ockham's razor, go to neural behavoir from the start
[2012/02/02 13:27] Hokon Cazalet: id agree herman
[2012/02/02 13:27] herman Bergson: the mind, or consciousness is a feature of the brain
[2012/02/02 13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think to use free will we need time to think about it
[2012/02/02 13:27] Hokon Cazalet: imo there's a lot of psychology that presumes we are a spirit still
[2012/02/02 13:27] herman Bergson: like liquidity is a feature of water...
[2012/02/02 13:27] Hokon Cazalet: [mistakenly so]
[2012/02/02 13:27] herman Bergson: no water no liquidity
[2012/02/02 13:27] herman Bergson: no brain no mind
[2012/02/02 13:28] herman Bergson: The big question however is...
[2012/02/02 13:28] herman Bergson: how can a material thing like the brain generate that what we experience as our consciousness
[2012/02/02 13:29] herman Bergson: and one of the features of consciousness is th eexperience of a free will
[2012/02/02 13:29] herman Bergson: the power that shapes our life, makes us responseble for what we do
[2012/02/02 13:29] herman Bergson: the deeper layer of the free will problem is causality...
[2012/02/02 13:30] herman Bergson: every event has a cause.....is the basic idea
[2012/02/02 13:30] herman Bergson: and if every event has a cause all is determined
[2012/02/02 13:31] Shiva Rhapsody in Blue (rhaptuous.aura): :(
[2012/02/02 13:31] Shiva Rhapsody in Blue (rhaptuous.aura): hmmm
[2012/02/02 13:31] Shiva Rhapsody in Blue (rhaptuous.aura): :-)
[2012/02/02 13:31] herman Bergson: just think about an uncaused event.....
[2012/02/02 13:31] Hokon Cazalet: although free will needs a cause or determining principle, otherwise its random, chaotic
[2012/02/02 13:32] herman Bergson: it is just there..happens out of the blue....
[2012/02/02 13:32] herman Bergson: exactly Hokon....
[2012/02/02 13:32] herman Bergson: that is at the heart of the debate on determinism
[2012/02/02 13:32] Hokon Cazalet: yup, so there's a paradox - freedom requires a violation of causality, yet without causality freedom doesn't exist [i.e. random]
[2012/02/02 13:32] herman Bergson: right...
[2012/02/02 13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: I guess to me this is all like the saying, you can not see the forest for the trees. Looking at just the consciousness, without all the other components involved, we are missing the full picture.
[2012/02/02 13:33] Bejiita Imako: ah
[2012/02/02 13:33] Hokon Cazalet: hmm
[2012/02/02 13:33] herman Bergson: In a next lecture I'll explain how philosophers try to solve that problen Hokon
[2012/02/02 13:33] Mick Nerido: but it could be we just rely on old habits and patterns of behavior
[2012/02/02 13:33] Hokon Cazalet: cool =) that's the one i got stuck on
[2012/02/02 13:34] herman Bergson: It is not easy....
[2012/02/02 13:34] Hokon Cazalet: hehe its had me stumped for years
[2012/02/02 13:35] herman Bergson: and this new research bring up so many new questions about the brain and consciousness...
[2012/02/02 13:35] Hokon Cazalet nods
[2012/02/02 13:35] Lizzy Pleides: not easy but exciting
[2012/02/02 13:35] herman Bergson: yes...
[2012/02/02 13:35] Hokon Cazalet: =)
[2012/02/02 13:35] herman Bergson: just imagine....
[2012/02/02 13:36] herman Bergson: there is that pattern of neurons in the brain firing when a person hears a word....
[2012/02/02 13:36] herman Bergson: that pattern enables him to say I hear the word 'house'
[2012/02/02 13:36] Mick Nerido: why the hearts it's early for Valentine Day lol
[2012/02/02 13:36] herman Bergson: so consciousness kicks in....
[2012/02/02 13:36] Hokon Cazalet: its always love a teddy bear day :√û
[2012/02/02 13:36] herman Bergson: there is a transition from that unique pattern to consciousness
[2012/02/02 13:37] herman Bergson: how does that work...
[2012/02/02 13:37] herman Bergson: from firing neurons to a conscious ness of the word 'house'?
[2012/02/02 13:38] Shiva Rhapsody in Blue (rhaptuous.aura): theres another set of neurons firing to enable the voice to speak the word thats heard
[2012/02/02 13:38] herman Bergson: yes shiva....
[2012/02/02 13:38] Lizzy Pleides: we have more exciting words than house, giggle
[2012/02/02 13:39] Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[2012/02/02 13:39] herman Bergson: that is what I meant to say with 'do we think in language'
[2012/02/02 13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: Nooooo comment !!!!
[2012/02/02 13:39] herman Bergson: gins
[2012/02/02 13:39] herman Bergson: yes lizzy.bu tthe effect is the same....you hear the word
[2012/02/02 13:39] Lizzy Pleides: nods
[2012/02/02 13:39] herman Bergson: What consciousness does with it is another story
[2012/02/02 13:40] druth Vlodovic: I can think in sounds and pictures as well, I thought this was investigated for education research already
[2012/02/02 13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): interesting
[2012/02/02 13:40] Hokon Cazalet: i think in feelings sometimes [to add to druth's comment]
[2012/02/02 13:40] herman Bergson: The next big question to deal with is: Is a determinist worldview compatible with the concept of free will
[2012/02/02 13:41] Mick Nerido: without a word for it, things have less meaning
[2012/02/02 13:41] druth Vlodovic: depends Mick :)
[2012/02/02 13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: I do wish you had never mentioned "candy store", my free will was gone and all I can think of now is CHOCOLATE!!!!
[2012/02/02 13:41] herman Bergson: True Druth, indeed....
[2012/02/02 13:41] druth Vlodovic: less definition certainly
[2012/02/02 13:41] herman Bergson: How does a composer or a painter think otherwise...
[2012/02/02 13:41] herman Bergson: But other brain areas can be involved in such processes
[2012/02/02 13:42] herman Bergson: for instance the visual cortex, while a logic reasoning is situated in the prefrontal lobe
[2012/02/02 13:42] Mistyowl Warrhol: and the composer, who wrote such beautiful music, even though he was deaf?
[2012/02/02 13:43] herman Bergson: that is a very complex situation Misty
[2012/02/02 13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very
[2012/02/02 13:44] herman Bergson: can be anything....for instance extreme sentitivity for vibrations
[2012/02/02 13:44] druth Vlodovic: so maybe this is why it is harder to reason about what you see without translating it into language first, proximity to the appropriate connections/functions
[2012/02/02 13:44] herman Bergson: for those who want to know more about the berkeley reseach...
[2012/02/02 13:44] herman Bergson: you really show have a look...
[2012/02/02 13:45] herman Bergson: there are audio samples of the experiment and how the word was reconstructed
[2012/02/02 13:45] herman Bergson: FOR YOUR INFORMATiON
----------------------------------------------------------------------
About the Berkely reach:
http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/01/31/scientists-decode-brain-waves-to-eavesdrop-on-what-we-hear/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[2012/02/02 13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: TY, saved
[2012/02/02 13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[2012/02/02 13:46] herman Bergson: Extensive and well documented article...
[2012/02/02 13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[2012/02/02 13:46] Bejiita Imako: interesting
[2012/02/02 13:47] Shiva Rhapsody in Blue (rhaptuous.aura): apparently they have to rewrite the medical texts now as research has shown that the language center, per se, is not behind the ear as always thot, but near the front and in the same place as the monkeys
[2012/02/02 13:47] herman Bergson: this is just the beginning....
[2012/02/02 13:47] Mick Nerido: Thanks
[2012/02/02 13:47] Qwark Allen: that reminds me psytrance
[2012/02/02 13:47] Qwark Allen: they add some frequencies to the music, that stimulate the production of endomorphines in the brain
[2012/02/02 13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Shiva I already heard that comment too ^_^
[2012/02/02 13:47] Bejiita Imako: you mean psy trance music
[2012/02/02 13:48] Qwark Allen: yes
[2012/02/02 13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm that might be possible indeed
[2012/02/02 13:48] Qwark Allen: that is why is so addictive music
[2012/02/02 13:48] Qwark Allen: eheheh
[2012/02/02 13:48] Shiva Rhapsody in Blue (rhaptuous.aura): yes, that is so, qwark
[2012/02/02 13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not to herman
[2012/02/02 13:48] Bejiita Imako: il think about that during your set now today and see if i can note such things
[2012/02/02 13:48] herman Bergson: that is very well possible Qwark....
[2012/02/02 13:48] Qwark Allen: he never heard it ^^
[2012/02/02 13:48] herman Bergson: like joggers get addicted to endorphines too
[2012/02/02 13:48] Qwark Allen: it is hermann, all true
[2012/02/02 13:48] Qwark Allen: yes
[2012/02/02 13:49] Bejiita Imako: its speedy stuff that gets me going for sure
[2012/02/02 13:49] herman Bergson: Well...plenty of questions and ideas to think about again I guess
[2012/02/02 13:49] Qwark Allen: its the beat of the heart beat of babies
[2012/02/02 13:49] Qwark Allen: 140-160 beats per minute
[2012/02/02 13:49] herman Bergson: Next lecute will be on the (in)compatobility between determinism and free will
[2012/02/02 13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: now that is interesting Qwark.
[2012/02/02 13:50] herman Bergson: That is pure philosophy...
[2012/02/02 13:50] Qwark Allen: kind of the first sound you listen, before you born
[2012/02/02 13:50] Lizzy Pleides: great!
[2012/02/02 13:50] Bejiita Imako: i like it
[2012/02/02 13:50] Bejiita Imako: what my neighbours think i dont know
[2012/02/02 13:50] Bejiita Imako: good its welll insulated here
[2012/02/02 13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[2012/02/02 13:51] herman Bergson: But how can it be that someone doesn't like that kind of music Qwark?
[2012/02/02 13:51] Mistyowl Warrhol: Qwark, first sound you hear is Mom's heart beat and the gurgling of her intestines.
[2012/02/02 13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[2012/02/02 13:51] Bejiita Imako: my mom thinks psy sounds horrible
[2012/02/02 13:51] Bejiita Imako: haha
[2012/02/02 13:51] Qwark Allen: first is yours eheheh
[2012/02/02 13:51] druth Vlodovic: preconditioning maybe
[[2012/02/02 13:51] herman Bergson: to much Bach consumed Druth?
[2012/02/02 13:51] herman Bergson: Is that the cause?
[2[2012/02/02 13:52] druth Vlodovic: people develop preferences for music that makes them feel a certain way, even music that makes you feel good will be annoying if you prefer to feel a different way while listening to music
[[2012/02/02 13:52] herman Bergson: Well Qwark...I'll try an come to listen to your baby heartbeat music again ^_^
[2012/02/02 13:52] Mick Nerido: True druth
[2012/02/02 13:52] Bejiita Imako: yes
[2012/02/02 13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[2012/02/02 13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[2012/02/02 13:52] Qwark Allen: thank you
[2012/02/02 13:52] Qwark Allen: :-)))
[2012/02/02 13:53] Qwark Allen: i`ll do my best
[2012/02/02 13:53] Qwark Allen: the heart rate of mom, is made by a instrument, its the snare
[2012/02/02 13:53] Bejiita Imako: for example when at work if i mount stuff and take it easy i often prefer either srtuff like this or deep house style
[2012/02/02 13:53] herman Bergson: Just let me know when you are on with it, Qwark ..I am curious
[2012/02/02 13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): today
[2012/02/02 13:53] Qwark Allen: going to play some at the party right after class
[2012/02/02 13:53] Bejiita Imako: but when harder stuff like welding or grinding work i usually go for talamasca or somethinkg like that
[2012/02/02 13:53] Lizzy Pleides: please tell me too qwark
[2012/02/02 13:54] herman Bergson: cool...quick service!
[2012/02/02 13:54] herman Bergson: Time to end our discussion then....
[2012/02/02 13:54] Qwark Allen: this music talks about images, that your brain makes with the sounds
[2012/02/02 13:54] Bejiita Imako: or when training hard also go for quicker harder stuff
[2012/02/02 13:54] : llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[2012/02/02 13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your inspiring participation
[2012/02/02 13:54] Qwark Allen: when you get a bit used to it, you can see what the music talks about
[2012/02/02 13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ‚ô• Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ‚ô•
[2012/02/02 13:54] Bejiita Imako: what suits the situation so to speak
[2012/02/02 13:54] Alexina Rene' (rene2008.zanzibar): ty!
[2012/02/02 13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[2012/02/02 13:54] Qwark Allen: it`s like to understand the fax machine
[2012/02/02 13:54] Bejiita Imako: really interesting
[2012/02/02 13:54] Bejiita Imako: thanx Herman
[2012/02/02 13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you next thursday
[2[2012/02/02 13:55] Sybyle Perdide: thank you Herman
[2012/02/02 13:55] Qwark Allen: ty hermann, glad i arrived in time for the discussion
[2012/02/02 13:55] Qwark Allen: :-)))
[2012/02/02 13:55] Sybyle Perdide: many input again
[2012/02/02 13:55] druth Vlodovic: a lot of human behavior seems to be based on creating predictable outcomes, or fitting our mental states to the environment (or avoiding doing so)
[2012/02/02 13:55] Hokon Cazalet: ty herman =)
[2012/02/02 13:55] druth Vlodovic: thanks herman
[2012/02/02 13:55] Sybyle Perdide: or better much input
[2012/02/02 13:55] herman Bergson: My pleasure
[2012/02/02 13:55] Sybyle Perdide: cannot decide
[2012/02/02 13:55] Shiva Rhapsody in Blue (rhaptuous.aura): always an inspiration to come here, thank you, professor herman
[2012/02/02 13:55] Hokon Cazalet: its gotten me thinking about this subject again, been busy on other stuff - forgot how fun this one was =)
[2012/02/02 13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, TY from me too Herman. I will have to read some of that back later
[2012/02/02 13:55] herman Bergson: you are welcome Shiva
[2012/02/02 13:56] druth Vlodovic: where are you performing qwark?
[2012/02/02 13:56] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[2012/02/02 13:56] Jareth Wirsing: bye all
[2012/02/02 13:56] Sybyle Perdide: bye Jareth
[2012/02/02 13:56] Jaelle Faerye: bye Jareth
[2012/02/02 13:57] Bejiita Imako: cu soon
[2012/02/02 13:57] Sybyle Perdide: ciao Beertje :)
[2012/02/02 13:57] Bejiita Imako: :)'
[2012/02/02 13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bye..goodnight

379: Consciousness and Free Will

The brain is a hot issue in the media like my Saturday newspaper proved again. A page long article with the headline: "spontaneous" decisions are over.

We have an intuitive belief that we have a free will. Some might argue….well, to some extend yes. It is almost the same intuitive belief that we have a mind and a body in a dualistic sense.

However, when asked a philosopher, we get another story. This dualism of mind and body is an idea only uphold by just a few anymore.

That's ok, as long as nobody starts denying that we have a mind. Let philosophers debate ontological questions here.

But our free will. That is another cup of tea.That free will is part of our identity. We shaped our personality by our free choices. Because of our free will we are morally responsible.

And here is a journalist who gets 64 electrodes attached to his skull looking at a computer screen, on which something is moving.

He gets the instruction to stop that movement by a mouse click, whenever he likes. Just spontaneous, unplanned.

What happens? Seconds before he presses the mouse button "spontaneously" there is already activity in the premotoric cortex.

The brain seems to be ahead of my spontaneous decision to press the button. It already made the decision for me?

the belief in a free will has serious consequences as has the opposite: the belief that they decide for you, that circumstances determine your present state and so on.

A research team of the university of Gent, Belgium, convinced one half of the group of test persons, that free will is an illusion

They presented them with the words of Nobel prizewinner Francis Crick:" Your feeling of personal identity and free will is nothing more than the behavior of a large group of braincells and molecules therein."

Whether Crick is right or not, in the heads of the test persons this text had a remarkable effect on the brain activity.

The brain activity in a free choice experiment was considerably less than in heads of those who hadn't read Crick's text and unconcerned believe in their free will.

Especially the unconscious process in the brain that precedes the spontaneous choice activity was 25% less in this group.

The belief or disbelief in a free will affects us, influences how we perform and act, like researchers from the University of MInnesota and University of California discovered.

Test persons had to solve 20 math problems. They could cheat, but were explicitly asked not to do so.
One half of the group was confronted with the text of Francis Crick.

The result was that in that group 60% more cheated than in the group who hadn't read the words of Francis Crick.

This defines our philosophical problem clearly: Is free will an illusion? What is the place of free will in our lives if all our actions are the result of some other cause?

Do our desires and unconscious beliefs make us less free? How do human beings assert their autonomy in a world governed by chance, cause and necessity?

You are free to show up next Thursday to hear how this story continues.


The Discussion

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yay, very interesting
[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:24] Bibbe Oh: thank you!
[13:24] Jaelle Faerye: what a cliffhanger, Herman, LOL
[13:24] Mick Nerido: Thanks professor
[13:24] herman Bergson: if you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours
[13:24] Farv Hallison: Thank you herman
[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: thank you, it was brilliant again
[13:24] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting theory.
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Im interested in that time-shift thing
[13:25] Mistyowl Warrhol: Do we have the free will to allow outside influence to effect how thinking?
[13:25] herman Bergson: yes Merlin that is a fascinating phenomenon.
[13:25] Mick Nerido: Have to go see u thursday
[13:25] herman Bergson: Ok Mick
[13:25] Farv Hallison: bye Mik
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: tc mick
[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Mick
[13:26] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC Mick :-)
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sometimes I think I had predicted something, but then wonder if my memory was false and came after the event
[13:26] herman Bergson: The general idea is that before we are conscious of our desicion the brain is already at work
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes
[13:26] herman Bergson: It came definitely after the event Merlin....
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes :)
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Do other people experience this?
[13:27] herman Bergson: the idea is that the brain makes up things....
[13:27] herman Bergson: But I have a problem with this way of thinking...
[13:28] herman Bergson: on the one hand there is the brain....
[13:28] herman Bergson: on the other hand there is consciousness
[13:28] Sybyle Perdide: but.. however you define free will.. the decision, the free will did, must come from somewhere
[13:28] herman Bergson: My point of view is that indeed the brain generates consciousness as a biological process
[13:28] Farv Hallison: I say your mind is different than consciousness....your mind made the desicion any it was displayed later on your Cartesean stage.
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Farv...that is a little bit what I fear...
[13:29] Mistyowl Warrhol: Some people are more influenced by outside events. Some are not. What about the 40% that did not cheat?
[13:29] herman Bergson: the idea that consciousness is the audience of the brain
[13:30] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): how much time is there between the brain and action?
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Richard Dawkins says clearly that he thinks consciousness evolved
[13:30] herman Bergson: half a second Beertje....in certain tests
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sorry, thats obvious
[13:30] herman Bergson: But Misty you got a point....
[13:30] Hokon Cazalet: true, if consciousness is a product of evolution [which it is], then it served some survivial value, somewhere somehow
[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes thats it
[13:31] herman Bergson: research shows that when you tell people there is no free will, they become less social and moral
[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh they DO?
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes Merlin...…
[13:31] herman Bergson: therefore I have great difficulty with this brian observations and how it is related to free will
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): they let go of their own moral?
[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: If ppl have been conditioned to obey what they hear, they lose free will. Ppl who are "free thinkers" will still rely on free will.
[13:32] Jaelle Faerye: that's an interesting thing
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....they feel less responseble for their actions...
[13:32] Jaelle Faerye: that moral thing
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I suppose Misty raises a broader issue there
[13:32] Jaelle Faerye: i read somewhere
[13:33] Farv Hallison: what does it mean to rely on free will?
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Degrees of free will
[13:33] Jaelle Faerye: that they had an "experiment" going on
[13:33] Jaelle Faerye: with people
[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: doesn't it depend of intelligence and education?
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: If any event is less obvious, we are more likely to let it influence us..
[13:33] herman Bergson: To rely on free will means that you have the feeling, Farv, that you make the decisions, you plot the course
[13:33] Jaelle Faerye: volunteers who were supposed to ask questions and "punish" with a power surge if the answer was wrong
[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: Trying to think of the word I am looking for.. duh
[13:34] Sybyle Perdide: but what is me?
[13:34] herman Bergson: The Miller experiment Jaelle....test on authority...
[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: and
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: letting go of the free will
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: since it was "required"
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes some obeyed to the extreme
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: people abdicated their own free will
[13:35] herman Bergson: but I think that that is another story....
[13:35] Mistyowl Warrhol: There are some, who will remain anon, who rebel when told something must be a certain way :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: it was not about free will this research but on the power of authority
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: uh huh
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: but
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: accepting authority without questioning?
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: isn't that somehow a negation of one's free will?
[13:36] Mistyowl Warrhol: Exactly
[13:36] herman Bergson: no...
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: why?
[13:36] herman Bergson: it is the choice to leave the responsability to th eperson in charge
[13:37] Jaelle Faerye: uh huh
[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: yep
[13:37] Sybyle Perdide: noo
[13:37] Jaelle Faerye: i never went to army
[13:37] Sybyle Perdide: not only#
[13:37] herman Bergson: well yes..it is army style...:-)
[13:37] herman Bergson: never question your superior!
[13:37] Jaelle Faerye: yup
[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: and with some religions
[13:38] herman Bergson: oh yes Misty...
[13:38] herman Bergson: never question Mohammed
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ooh careful!
[13:38] herman Bergson: grins...
[13:38] herman Bergson: yeah Merlin..
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: LOL but that is not about true religion, but ppl who use religion for power and that is a whole new issue.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...I think you will be surprised when we really dig into th efree will issue philosophically...
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I look forward to it
[13:40] Jaelle Faerye: me too
[13:40] Mistyowl Warrhol: There will always be ppl who believe only they are right and want to take free will away.
[13:40] herman Bergson: To be honest Merlin..me too....it is amazing in fact....
[13:41] herman Bergson: Then...may I thank you all again for your participation....
[13:41] Jaelle Faerye: Thank YOU, Herman
[13:41] Sybyle Perdide: merci Herman
[13:41] herman Bergson: unless you still have a question or remark left
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, thank YOU
[13:41] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you professor
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: thanks to YOU Herman
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: Nice discussion.. much to think about. ty :-)
[13:41] Bibbe Oh: Food for thought!
[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.. ^_^
[13:42] Hokon Cazalet: =)
[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): He he
[13:43] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Goodnight everybody
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: nini Beertje
[13:43] herman Bergson: I am sorry Lizzy about my report on what I saw
[13:43] Farv Hallison: goodnight beer
[13:43] Jaelle Faerye: Night Beerje

378: Consciousness and Intentionality

The combined feature of qualitative, unified subjectivity is the essence of consciousness and it, more than anything else, is what makes consciousness different from other phenomena studied by the natural sciences.

Of course this is not the ultimate explanation of consciousness. It has a lot more features, but especially its unity is the most difficult part to explain scientifically.

No medical procedure to do with the unified consciousness has received as much philosophical attention in recent times as commissurotomies, more commonly known as brain bisection operations.

In these operations, the corpus callosum is cut. The corpus callosum is a large strand of about 200,000,000 neurons running from one hemisphere to the other. When present, it is the chief channel of communication between the hemispheres.

These operations, done mainly in the 1960s but recently reintroduced in a somewhat modified form, are a last-ditch effort to control certain kinds of severe epilepsy by stopping the spread of seizures from one lobe of the cerebral cortex to the other lobe.

In normal life, these patients show little effect of the operation. In particular, their consciousness of their world and themselves appears to remain as unified as it was prior to the operation. How this can be has puzzled a lot of people.

Under certain laboratory conditions, these patients behave as though two ‘centers of consciousness’ have been created in them.

The original unity seems to be gone and two centers of unified consciousness seem to have replaced it, each associated with one of the two cerebral hemispheres.

In an experiment a person was asked what profession he would choose, he said carpenter. Then asked to spell his choice of profession by using cards with letters on them, he spelled the word pilot.

When such a person can't see his hands those hands could be typing, but when asked "are you typing" the person says "no". This suggest, that these patients have two centers of consciousness.

I'll only draw your attention to this specific phenomena of the unity of consciousness. It is a complex subject and too big to discuss it here in full.

To bring the discussion of consciousness to an end, let me point at another important feature of consciousness: intentionality.

Conscious states typically have "intentionality," that property of mental states by which they are directed at or about objects and states of affairs in the world.

Philosophers use the word intentionality not just for "intending" in the ordinary sense but for any mental phenomena at all that have referential content.

According to this usage, beliefs, hopes, intentions, fears, desires and perceptions all are intentional. So if I have a belief, I must have a belief about something.

If I have a normal visual experience, it must seem to me that I am actually seeing something, etc. Not all conscious states are intentional ; for example, undirected anxiety lacks intentionality.

It can seem that consciousness and intentionality pervade mental life, but achieving an articulate general understanding of either consciousness or intentionality presents an enormous challenge.

I leave the subjects of the unity and intentionality of consciousness for further study to you.


The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:19] Farv Hallison: Can a dream be intentional?
[13:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some say they do that
[13:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): get the dream ready and dream it
[13:20] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:20] herman Bergson: difficult question Farv
[13:20] druth Vlodovic: "lucid dreaming"
[13:20] Jarapanda Snook: In some dreams I am aware that I am acting with intentionality
[13:20] herman Bergson: It is some uncontrolled random event
[13:20] Jarapanda Snook: it is like I am consciously dreaming
[13:20] Mick Nerido: dreams lack a conscious intention
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes jara....we talk and we think and believe in our dreams...
[13:21] herman Bergson: That's the point Mick
[13:21] druth Vlodovic: though according to the definition given you can have an intention you have no control over, like wanting to run away from something even if you know you shouldn't
[13:21] herman Bergson: So it is a kind of in between unconscious and conscious ...
[13:22] herman Bergson: oh yes druth.....
[13:22] Jaelle Faerye: wait wait
[13:22] Jaelle Faerye: but what tells me that this is not a dream?
[13:22] Jarapanda Snook: mostly my dreams are just like watching a B-movie, but sometimes i seem to act very consciously intentionally
[13:22] Mick Nerido: I dream of a solution to a RL problem, is that intentionalty
[13:22] herman Bergson: one of the main point regarding the unity of consciousness is that there is so much more going on in your brain of which you arent aware
[13:23] Farv Hallison: hello Hokon
[13:23] Hokon Cazalet: hi =) just got home from work
[13:23] herman Bergson: I am inclined to restrict intentionality to conscious mental states
[13:23] druth Vlodovic: why?
[13:24] herman Bergson: because it is about the fact that thought, believes desires etc are always about something....
[13:24] Jarapanda Snook: maybe that is a flawed assumption?
[13:25] herman Bergson: there is a clear relation between being conscious and the about of what you are conscious of.
[13:25] herman Bergson: Dreams don't fit into that picture
[13:25] Farv Hallison: Do the objects in SL qualify as things?
[13:25] Jarapanda Snook: so where does the subconscious come in ?
[13:25] Hokon Cazalet: dreams are about something, though dream-less sleep def doesnt fit
[13:25] herman Bergson: After waking up you can be aware of your dream
[13:26] Hokon Cazalet: during my dreams i look and use things, albeit its an illusion, but there is still content to my fantasies
[13:26] herman Bergson: I don't know what to do with dreams....
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes in dreams you seem to have intentional conscious mental states
[13:26] druth Vlodovic: but if impulses are included in intentionality then anything you do started as an impulse and became a plan,
[13:26] Hokon Cazalet: i simply say dream = vivid imaginations, my imagination of a unicorn has intentionality - its about a unicorn; my dream about fighting zombies has intentionality
[13:27] Mick Nerido: That memory of a dream makes it a conscious event
[13:27] Hokon Cazalet: i imagine myself gazing at zombies and i make use of imaginary tools - all of this has intentionality
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes hokon...you could say that.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: with intentionality I only want to say that a lot of conscious mentla states are always about something
[13:28] Hokon Cazalet: id be the same, i don't think all consciousness is conscious of something
[13:28] herman Bergson: Believe me...I'd rather not dig into this subkject too deep :-))
[13:28] druth Vlodovic: I'm actually interested in the idea of multiple conscious states, i've experienced evidence of this, odd that you are only "conscious" of one conscious state at a time
[13:28] Hokon Cazalet: hehe =)
[13:28] herman Bergson: because philosophically it is really complex
[13:29] Hokon Cazalet: and psychologically complex
[13:29] Hokon Cazalet: id agree =)
[13:29] Hokon Cazalet: i like what druth said also, only being conscious of one thing at a time - might be tied into the unity of intentional consciousness
[13:29] Hokon Cazalet: but i'm not sure its necessary
[13:29] herman Bergson: just look at these four statements regarding intentionality
[13:30] herman Bergson: Consciousness is explanatorily derived from intentionality.
Consciousness is underived and separable from intentionality.
Consciousness is underived but also inseparable from intentionality.
Consciousness is underived from, inseparable from, and essential to intentionality.
[13:30] Hokon Cazalet looks
[13:30] Jarapanda Snook: but I am aware of 2 simultanious states of consciousness - like a foreground an background - at the same time
[13:30] herman Bergson: I just give you the statements to show you how complex the issue of intentionality can become
[13:30] druth Vlodovic: do people ever register on instruments as being conscious when they are not experiencing consciousness?
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): sure is
[13:31] Hokon Cazalet: position one is false, the concept of intentionality gives no useful or specific predictions; correct jarapanda [actually husserl discusses that in Ideas I, that not all thoughts are necessarily part of the intentional act]
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): especially if multi tasking
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes jara That is one of the features of consciousness
[13:31] herman Bergson: the distinction between Center and Periphery of attention
[13:31] Jarapanda Snook: right
[13:32] herman Bergson: Such features are open to scientific research....
[13:32] Hokon Cazalet: yup
[13:32] herman Bergson: psychology and neuroscience for instance
[13:33] herman Bergson: And I guess that there is a lot of research going on in that area
[13:34] herman Bergson: A thing I haven't mentioned regarding the unified consciousness is concepts like personal identity and the Self
[13:34] herman Bergson: a complete new chapter....
[13:35] herman Bergson: I think we should discuss Daniel Dennett in relation to this.
[13:35] Jarapanda Snook: is the Self focussed in the peripheral consciousness?
[13:35] herman Bergson: there are theories that what we experience as our Self, is just something the brain makes up afterwards for us
[13:36] Jarapanda Snook: like rationalizing dreams when we wake up?
[13:36] herman Bergson: like the idea that we have a free will is also just a story afterwards....we just believe we have....
[13:36] herman Bergson: something like that ...
[13:36] herman Bergson: I am still studying on these issues..
[13:36] Hokon Cazalet is also
[13:37] Jarapanda Snook: do you mean free will physically or psychologically?
[13:37] herman Bergson: The question do we have a free will? is a hot issue these days
[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: question.. if we lost our 5 senses, smell, taste, touch, vision, hearing, would be still be "conscious'?
[13:37] herman Bergson: psychologically
[13:37] Jarapanda Snook: I am sure we would
[13:37] Farv Hallison: hello Rodney
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: so "experience" is just memory?
[13:37] Rodney Handrick: Hi Farv
[13:38] herman Bergson: our idea that it is WE how dicide in all kinds of situations
[13:38] Qwark Allen: oh no! rodney arrived first
[13:38] herman Bergson: Hi Rodney
[13:38] Sybyle Perdide: hello Quwark
[13:38] Sybyle Perdide: hello Rod
[13:38] Rodney Handrick: lol...hi Qwark
[13:38] herman Bergson: You are too early.....^_^
[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Rodney and Qwark
[13:38] Qwark Allen: sorry delay
[13:38] herman Bergson: Hey Qwark ㋡
[13:38] Rodney Handrick: Hi Sybyle
[[13:38] Jaelle Faerye: Hi Qwark and Rod and the others
[13:38] Jaelle Faerye: since we are at "hellos"
[13:38] Rodney Handrick: Hi Jaelle
[13:38] Jarapanda Snook: it's like The Waltons in here
[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...I definitely will discuss the issue of free will with you soon...
[13:39] Sybyle Perdide: what is your room, Jara? upperstorey left last but one?
[13:39] herman Bergson: and also the idea that the brain in fact just tells us stories what we call our personal identity...
[13:40] Jarapanda Snook: surely we are free to think what we like, but it is the transition to doing what we like that breaks down
[13:40] herman Bergson: it is even worse Jara.....
[13:40] Jarapanda Snook: I thought so...
[13:40] Mistyowl Warrhol: They are here for Tues lecture.. lol ( I can say that since I was so late also!!!)
[13:40] herman Bergson: They allways come up with the Libett story....
[13:41] Farv Hallison: hello Mistyowl
[13:41] herman Bergson: He discovered that when you decide to move your hand, the brain is already in full action before you are even aware of your wish to move your hand
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: Hello hugs to all :-)
[13:41] Hokon Cazalet: huggles
[13:42] herman Bergson: So when I say I want to move my hand, my brain already has taken that decision before I said it.
[13:42] Farv Hallison huggs MistyOwl
[13:42] herman Bergson: I still have to look into that matter
[13:42] druth Vlodovic: "by the way, we decided to move you hand."
[13:42] Hokon Cazalet: me too, i find that interesting
[13:42] Mistyowl Warrhol: But that is logical, because the decision to move the hand came from the brain.
[13:42] Jarapanda Snook: but you can think about moving your hand when it doesn't move
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:42] Mistyowl Warrhol: Unless the hand just touch a hot burner, then.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: yes you can ㋡
[13:43] herman Bergson: But philosophically it has a ground....
[13:43] druth Vlodovic: so is the consciousness just for learning and providing general direction?
[13:43] Jarapanda Snook: and you can also think about not moving your hand while you are moving it
[13:43] herman Bergson: when we are just material beings and all is governed by the laws of nature
[13:44] herman Bergson: it means that all processes are determined...also what happens in outr brain...
[13:44] herman Bergson: it is the classic problem of determinism and th epossibility of free will
[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: some movements are reflexes
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy...completely controlled by the brain itself
[13:45] herman Bergson: as you see ...we still have a few questions to deal with ㋡
[13:46] herman Bergson: deal
[13:46] Qwark Allen: heehe
[13:46] Qwark Allen: we have more questions, then answers
[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): always
[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark, keeps us pretty busy ^_^
[13:46] Qwark Allen: indeed´
[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are always questions here after a set of lectures
[13:46] herman Bergson: Does anyone of you still have a question?
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what is next
[13:47] herman Bergson: Main issues are free will and Dennett....
[13:47] druth Vlodovic: so the consciousness could be seen as a programmer, writing in the program but not causing the actual work to be done?
[13:48] herman Bergson: the picture is more that the brain is a computer and consciousness the software
[13:48] Jaelle Faerye: has a déjà vu feeling
[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: but if the consciousness doesn't cause, say, movement, but is informed afterwards, then it only provides the general plan
[13:49] druth Vlodovic: so it is actually a step removed from the software
[13:49] Jarapanda Snook: but actions like moving your hand are pre-programmed - like a muscle memory
[13:49] herman Bergson: yes Druth.... some people hold such kinds of ideas...
[13:49] Mistyowl Warrhol: I think the consciousness is the sixth sense, that takes all the data from the other 5 and translates them into something our brain can use.
[13:50] Hokon Cazalet: im curious, what about actions we take that require a choice in less time than it takes for the brain to unconsciously process it? how much of a gap is there?
[13:50] Jarapanda Snook: interesting, Misty
[13:50] herman Bergson: half a second Hokon
[13:50] Hokon Cazalet: misty, thats a concept Aristotle had actually, from De Anima =)
[13:50] Hokon Cazalet: ok, thats short enough
[13:50] Hokon Cazalet: so my question is void =)
[13:50] herman Bergson: The remark of Misty is questionable
[13:51] Mistyowl Warrhol: Well, it does make sense.
[13:51] Mistyowl Warrhol: What.. you question me ??????? ROFL
[13:51] Jarapanda Snook: the Sixth Sense is about intuition perhaps
[13:51] herman Bergson: The brain is not a sense organ, but an information manipulating unit
[13:51] Farv Hallison rolls on the floor with Mistyowl.
[13:52] herman Bergson: and this information processing in the brain causes consciousness
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: it's been studied a lot due to it's application to automotive safety hokon
[13:52] Hokon Cazalet: hm half a second explains some of the weird stuff we do, such as recognizing ive done something out of habit, yet wrong for this situation
[13:52] herman Bergson: I apologize Misty...^_^
[13:52] Hokon Cazalet: oh ok cool druth, makes sense =)
[13:52] Mistyowl Warrhol: lol
[13:53] Hokon Cazalet: sort of jerked "whoops"
[13:53] Qwark Allen: by that definition, we can extrapolate, that all living beeing with brains, have consciense
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes qwark....depending on the level of development of the central nervous system....
[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: not necessarily - are ants conscious?
[13:54] herman Bergson: Animal consciousnes is a serious subject
[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they move
[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is
[13:54] Qwark Allen: ants have no brain
[13:54] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:54] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:54] Hokon Cazalet: ant's probably have no unified consciousness, no real brain
[13:54] herman Bergson: Ants have a brain Qwark :-)
[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: I think they do
[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: fish then
[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes they do
[13:54] Hokon Cazalet: they have ganglia
[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes they have a brain...absolutely....
[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:54] Hokon Cazalet: or whatever that stem is called
[13:54] Qwark Allen: was talking more about mamal brains
[13:54] Mistyowl Warrhol: and they could have, just not near the stage of development we have.. and depending on the being.
[13:55] herman Bergson: But the test of consciousness is often related to the mirror test
[13:55] Jarapanda Snook: but you would not think of them as being conscioous...
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are extremely clever and organized
[13:55] Jarapanda Snook: or do we me Self-Conscious...
[13:55] herman Bergson: no ants arent conscious in the sense we are....
[13:55] Jarapanda Snook: self aware?
[13:55] Qwark Allen: no doubts about that gemma
[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:55] Jarapanda Snook: individually they are not clever
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: the mirror test seems to rely on the subject doing something we'd recognize as a reasonable response to recognizing itself
[13:56] Jarapanda Snook: they have a hive cleverness we can't comprehend
[13:56] herman Bergson: yes Jara..... when an organism shows self recognistion we must conclude that it has some level of consciousness
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: and elephants? We know they remember and grieve?
[13:56] Jaelle Faerye looks at her Werber books
[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: thank god i am not an ant
[13:56] herman Bergson: in that respect....just study the works of Frank de Waal
[13:56] Hokon Cazalet: although something can be conscious without being self-aware [or is the philosophic definition self-awareness? i did find it out we didnt call dreams conscious states . . .]
[13:57] Jarapanda Snook: elephants, dogs and dolphins - I think those are the only self aware anomals
[13:57] Hokon Cazalet: find it odd*
[13:57] herman Bergson: he is an expert in animal behavior, especiallly chimps
[13:57] herman Bergson: chimpansees too Jara
[13:57] Jarapanda Snook: yes sorry
[13:57] herman Bergson: But for instance an Orang Oetang not
[13:57] Qwark Allen: and all wales
[13:57] druth Vlodovic: if we tried the morror test on an animal that had some sort of superstitious fear about seeing another "me" as a bad thing then a "reasonable response" would be to attack it lol
[13:58] herman Bergson: The whale is a very special creature....
[13:58] herman Bergson: it is the only creative animal as far as I know.....
[13:58] herman Bergson: it sings songs...I suppose to communicate....
[13:58] Jarapanda Snook: they have a level of consciousness we would find it hard to comprehend
[13:58] Qwark Allen: whales have the most sofisticated language of the planet
[13:59] herman Bergson: but not like a bird always sings its same old song...the whale composes new ones all thetime
[13:59] herman Bergson: somehting like that , yes
[13:59] Hokon Cazalet: herman, this may have been explained already (and ive only explored consciousness with continental works), what's the definition of consciousness in this discussion?
[13:59] Qwark Allen: and they have cultural language also
[13:59] Qwark Allen: like some talk french and other english
[14:00] druth Vlodovic: or maybe some animals are intelligent enough to know that they cannot be in two places at the same time, so they dismiss out of hand the idea that it might be "me"
[14:00] Jaelle Faerye: where elephants have a very low infra sounds that can be heard by others very far and have some kind of respect for their deads
[14:00] Lizzy Pleides: true Jaelle
[14:00] Jaelle Faerye: they recognize and greet the bones of their dead ones when they meet them
[14:00] herman Bergson: Consciousness consists of inner, qualitative subjective states and processes of sentience and awareness
[14:00] Qwark Allen: you know rhinos are descendants of early whales?
[14:01] Hokon Cazalet: hm ok
[14:01] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): getting way off track
[14:01] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[14:01] Jaelle Faerye: i think we are just discovering things
[14:01] herman Bergson: looks at his watch.....
[14:01] Jaelle Faerye: each and every day
[14:01] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): 'right
[14:01] herman Bergson: we are a bit late....
[14:01] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[14:01] Jaelle Faerye: and that in a few decades maybe all will laugh at those theories about consciousness
[14:02] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!
[14:02] Jaelle Faerye: and on this note
[14:02] Hokon Cazalet: AHH!!!!
[14:02] herman Bergson: Time to thank you all for your participation.....
[14:02] Jaelle Faerye: i wish you all a pleasant time
[[14:02] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope to be here tuesday if I can
[14:02] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): if not thursday as usual
[14:02] Jarapanda Snook: Thank you Herman
[14:02] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[14:02] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman!
[14:02] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[14:02] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[14:02] Qwark Allen: thank you
[14:02] Sybyle Perdide: thank you
[14:02] Jaelle Faerye: thank you, herman
[14:02] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[14:02] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Gemma