381: The Brain, determinism and Free Will

In The Critique of Pure Reason (first published in 1781), the German philosopher Immanuel Kant maintained that causation was one of the fundamental concepts that rendered the empirical world comprehensible to humans.

By the beginning of the twenty-first century, psychology was beginning to show just how pervasive human reasoning concerning cause and effect is.

Even young children seem to naturally organize their knowledge of the world according to relations of cause and effect.

Causal determinism states that future events are necessitated by past and present events combined with the laws of nature.

Imagine an entity that knows all facts about the past and the present, and knows all natural laws that govern the universe.

If the laws of nature were determinate, then such an entity would be able to use this knowledge to foresee the future, down to the smallest detail.

Biological determinism is the idea that all behaviors, beliefs, and desires are fixed by our genetic endowment and our biochemical makeup, the latter of which is affected by both genes and environment.

These interpretations of determinism leave little room for a free will. On the other hand, suppose your free will means your ability to choose A over B…just like that.

No reason for the choice…just out of the blue you choose A, because you are driven by free will. Somehow that doesn't feel good. You think, you need a motivation for your choice.

But was it free will then, or a choice determined by motives. And where do those motives come from? Aren't they caused by other thoughts or experiences?

Somehow we must find some explanation, that allows causation and on the other hand can not causally explain, why we chose A over B, which could mean that determinism is compatible with free will.

We could argue that determinism does not matter; what matters is that individuals' wills are the result of their own desires and are not overridden by some external force.

So, what is free will. Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679), claimed that a person acts on their own only when the person wanted to do the act and the person could have done otherwise, if the person had decided to.

You also can speak of free will as positive liberty, defined as having the power and resources to fulfill one's own potential (this may include freedom from internal constraints), as opposed to negative liberty, which is freedom from external restraint.

But you also could argue that there are cases where a coerced individual's choices are still free because such coercion coincides with the individual's personal intentions and desires.

David Hume (1711 - 1776) discussed the possibility that the entire debate about free will is nothing more than a merely "verbal" issue.

He suggested that it might be accounted for by "a false sensation or seeming experience" which is associated with many of our actions when we perform them. On reflection, we realize that they were necessary and determined all along.

It seems that we don't need brain scans and neuroscientific evidence to come to the conclusion, that the idea of free will is a verbal issue.

Just think about the meaning of the word "free" in relation to willing. Free from what? We can not act without a reason or a cause. And if we can not find one, Freud has taught us that there are many subconscious reasons too.

So, free will, is it really that interesting? Did Hobbes define the idea of free here the best? We act and we take responsibility for our actions, that is how the system works.


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:24] Jaelle Faerye: Thank you Herman
[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well yes, thats a clear statement of the dilemma
[13:25] herman Bergson: it is up to your free will to react or have a question ㋡
[13:25] herman Bergson: YES MERLIN....
[13:25] Sybyle Perdide: thank you
[13:25] Mick Nerido: If i were to throw dice to determine a choice that would be free will?
[13:25] herman Bergson: The more I studied the subject the less I got interested in that concept of "free"
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Even dice are not truly random
[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: "free" is the keyword
[13:26] herman Bergson: Mick, there was a reason to use dice
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Jaelle...
[13:26] herman Bergson: and to be honest..don't know what to do with it
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: haaa
[13:27] Mick Nerido: to eliminate my choice leaving it purely to chance
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: haven't you aver done that, Mick?
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: throw dice
[13:27] herman Bergson: you wouldnt accept that Mick
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: or flip a coin
[13:27] druth Vlodovic: I suspect that part of the problem is the idea of an unchangeable" core self"
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have sometimes tossed a coin
[13:27] Jaelle Faerye: and find out you want the OTHER solution
[13:27] Mick Nerido: i threw a dart at a map to choose a vacation destination
[13:27] herman Bergson: all actions that are rationalisations of a situation
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:28] Mick Nerido: vacation
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah'
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: and the dice or coin can help us see what we don't want
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I'm very interested in divination actually.
[13:28] druth Vlodovic: lol "asking for advice just means you know what you want to do and don't like it."
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: just clarify the choice as unacceptable
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:28] Jaelle Faerye: maybe
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Druth ^_^
[13:29] herman Bergson: let me put it this way....
[13:29] Jaelle Faerye: or maybe you respect someone's insight and you want to get another way of thinking around your issue
[13:29] herman Bergson: we behave...choose al the time...90% subconsciously even....
[13:29] herman Bergson: but in conscious choices........
[13:30] herman Bergson: I think there is the ability to veto our choice...
[13:30] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): is reacting on a trigger free will?...even if the reaction is very bad and you never have chosen if you had the choise?
[13:31] herman Bergson: like the golf player swings his club an d in a split second says "No, not the good swing" and misses the ball
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but why would you want to play a bad swing
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ?
[13:31] herman Bergson: we are conditioned to a high level in behavior Beertje..yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: No Bekiita....
[13:32] herman Bergson: in the movement of the swing he feels it isnt the right one
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: i want to hit the ball as good as i call all times sometimes very good otherwise it go not as good but i always try to go for the best shot possible
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): so reacting on a trigger is free will?...did I understood that right?
[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: if you practice something oftenly it belongs to subconsciousness
[13:33] druth Vlodovic: if you can train your trigger then it can be
[13:33] herman Bergson: no Beertje..that is conditioned behavior...
[13:33] herman Bergson: What is the meaning of all advertising???To deprive us of our free will
[[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: depends
[13:34] herman Bergson: Bu tin the store..at the very moment we buy the producct ..in a split second...we can say NO
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: i use to say that some of it can be good to inform us about a good product and then it also SHOULD be good
[13:34] Mick Nerido: advertising tries to sell us something not deprive us of free will
[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: depends what you call advertising
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: however they don't have to show coca cola commercials evenry now and then for example
[13:34] Jaelle Faerye: a billboard a sign
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: i already KNOW its a good product that taste good
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: something can INFORM you
[13:35] herman Bergson: no no...I understand....
[13:35] druth Vlodovic: it seeks to condition our responses, if you try to maintain consciousness of your decisions then the effect tends to be more limited
[13:35] Jaelle Faerye: that there is a grocery here, for instance
[13:35] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): not every product that taste good is good for your health
[13:35] herman Bergson: we are not deprived of our free will , we are just influenced....biased eventually
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: advertising is not = information
[13:36] Jaelle Faerye: okay
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats one thing indeed for example i don't drink a 2 litre bottle now and then but some people do and thats way too much sugar
[13:36] herman Bergson: no Lizzy…advertising is trying to control our will
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: nods
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: its tasty but should not drink too much
[13:36] druth Vlodovic: it's not coercion, though it is an attempt at conditioning
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: should
[13:36] herman Bergson: and in such situations...I think...
[13:36] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): they try us to believe that we can't live without the product
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: if you want to know what free will means is our ability to say NO at any given moment
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: like apple and their ipads and iphones
[13:36] Sybyle Perdide: if we are looking for free will, we have to find the gap between the different causes, that will work
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Advertisers would take away our free will if they could
[13:37] Sybyle Perdide: or better, if there is such a gap, in which we can act free
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: dont like apple at all esp not after i read about the workers in china commiting suicide
[13:37] Mick Nerido: thats right just say no.
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: made me really sad
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and their damn lock in policies
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Was that because they could not get the new phone?
[13:38] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): it's your free will to NOT bye the stuff bejiita
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: tried to get an ipod working for a friend but the damn software that they require itunes didnt want to work at all,
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: with other things u plug it in the usb transfer your stuff no prob
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: thats how it should be
[13:39] herman Bergson: At this moment I am inclined to say that free will is not defined by the freedom of wanting something, but by our ability to say NO...in any situation
[13:39] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): why so angry about that stuff Bejiita?..you don't have to buy that
[13:39] druth Vlodovic: you'd have to want to say "no" at some level
[13:39] Mick Nerido: I freely choose to be at Philosophy class lol
[13:40] herman Bergson: yes Mick...you could say NO at any moment and not come
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: if you see through the advertisement you can decide against the product
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: when it comes to stuff like that I am more for open solutions and luckily there are such ones too
[13:40] Mick Nerido: but there are many unconscious reasons I don'y
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes thats an important thing , to see through commercials and similar things
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Mick, but yet....
[13:41] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): i wiped my husband out free will from this chair behind the comp to be here in this class
[13:41] herman Bergson: at this moment ...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: i always think twice
[13:41] herman Bergson: if you want a definition of free will...
[13:41] Sybyle Perdide: please
[13:41] Sybyle Perdide: :)
[13:41] herman Bergson: I would say..our ability free from any coercion to say NO
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: the more knowledge you have the easier you can decide
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but i like to test new things and if they are good i stick with it if they are bad i look for something else
[13:42] Jaelle Faerye: i disagree Lizzy
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: to find just the things i want
[13:42] Jaelle Faerye: the more knowledge you have, the more options you see
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:42] Jaelle Faerye: the more difficult is the choice
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:43] herman Bergson: but youstill can say NO
[13:43] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:43] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): true Herman..everybody can say NO
[13:43] herman Bergson: whatever options you have...
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: u can laways do that indeed
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: what now, yes or no?
[13:44] herman Bergson: well..if determinism means that all our actions are caused ...then free willmeans...NO
[13:44] herman Bergson: which means...we ignore the causes and just say..I dont do it
[13:44] Jaelle Faerye: yes
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:44] herman Bergson: for the rst we are ok by that fact that our actions are caused....
[13:45] herman Bergson: we go to the supermarket and buy the product that was advertized on tv...we don't care...but we could have said NO
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes at least partially depending on what it is to do at moment
[[13:46] Sybyle Perdide: but this no is caused on knowledge too
[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: because we have the knowledge about how advertisement is made
[13:46] Sybyle Perdide: it need not to be free will
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: if i work are at home for ex, choose actions depending from what my current action is
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...you could say that the NO is cause d by other inner causes....
[13:47] Sybyle Perdide: the difficulty is to get to a point where our different knowledges and so on are in standoff situation
[13:47] Mick Nerido: thats why i use chance when i am not sure
[13:47] Sybyle Perdide: but I don't know how to manage
[13:47] herman Bergson: for instance, because you hate to follow TV commercials by buying the products
[13:47] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): one has to feel good by saying NO..otherwise it's not a good choice
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes Beertje....
[13:48] herman Bergson: the NO is a personal victory :-)
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: or "yes"
[13:48] herman Bergson: smiles..
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: depending if u like it or not
[13:48] herman Bergson: OK Druth..now and then you may say YES
[13:48] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): is it all about personal victory..the free will I mean?
[13:49] druth Vlodovic: the secret I think is to be deliberate in making yourself into the sort of person you want to be, so your choices will follow
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: i think for example that this is interesting so therefore im here at the moment
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and also have many friends here thats another thing to it
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: stuff like that
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:49] Mick Nerido: when a girl says no does she mean yes?
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: if everbody sais NO you can say NO to the NO, what means Yes
[13:49] Jaelle Faerye: uh oh
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: makes me say yes to this
[13:49] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): nó Mick
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: u mean that they play hard to get when they like you or?
[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): she means no..
[13:50] druth Vlodovic: if your choice is just to pull against the mainstream then it's not really a choice,
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:50] herman Bergson: Simple and correct logic Lizzy...
[13:50] herman Bergson: when they all say NO you may say YES
[13:50] herman Bergson: which is equivalent to NO NO ㋡
[13:51] druth Vlodovic: for it to be a real choice it has to be carefully considered along a number of dimensions
[13:52] herman Bergson: You know.....
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: even if the final decision is what everyone else chose as well it is still worth it to go through the process of deeply considering it first
[13:52] herman Bergson: I hardly have an idea what free will is....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: its interesting subject for sure
[13:53] herman Bergson: I know that all behavior has causes....conscious and subconscious....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and tricky indeed
[13:53] Sybyle Perdide: is there someone who has an idea, Herman?
[13:53] Mick Nerido: it's something like liberty...
[13:54] herman Bergson: So when I can do what I do and nobody is keeping me from doing it...I guess I am using my free will in a deterministic context
[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: and what is liberty, .. a feeling only?!
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: id say many of my choises are based on what i do at moment but then i have based in that a group of actions i can take and choose between as i like
[13:54] herman Bergson: and that can define responsability....
[13:55] herman Bergson: I can try to kill some one....everybody would stop me...because of our moral rituals
[13:55] Mick Nerido: liberty means free to choose.
[13:55] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes things i know is wrong i cant make myself to choose on
[[13:55] Bejiita Imako: then its a no
e[13:56] herman Bergson: it is up to your own free will tho think about how fre you are to want things...
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: I remember the tactics i used on my kids to take away their choices without them knowing
[13:56] herman Bergson: I guess I have tortured your brains enough now...
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: "do you want a shower or a bath" only sounds like a choice... :)
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: same if i hold a very expensive vase, even if i could drop it free will i cant make myself to do it, or any other thing i dont want to break
[13:56] herman Bergson: So thank you all...
[13:56] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman
[13:57] Jaelle Faerye: thanks Herman
[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..
[[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] Sybyle Perdide: thank you Herman
[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: thanks to YOU Herman
[13:57] druth Vlodovic: thanks herman
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: tnx
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: really nice and interesting once again
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): very interesting Herman
[13:58] herman Bergson: Never knew that a free will could be so problematic ㋡
[13:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Anyone interested in psychology might be interested in a programme on Schizophrenia on BBC this morning.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b015sqc7
[13:58] herman Bergson: Ahh....
[13:58] herman Bergson: thnx Merlin!
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): YW Herman. I was thinking I should tell people at the time I heard it.
[13:59] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Still available on the web
[13:59] herman Bergson: Good idea Merlin!
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all

352: The Brain and the Identity Theory 1

Very roughly, the identity theory asserts that the mind is the brain.More precisely, it claims that mental states are physical states of the brain.The qualification 'physical' is important.

After all,property dualism asserts that mental states are properties of the brain. However,according to property dualism, mental states are nonphysical properties of the brain.

Conseqently,if the identity theory is to be distinct from property dualism,it must assert that mental states are physical states of the brain.

Maybe you have an intuitive notion of agreeing with this idea: the mind is the brain. At least you have been softened up to get used to this idea by the media.

The brain is hot these days. To give you some examples. I got an offer of a trial subscription to a news weekly.

When I would accept I also would receive a 100 pages full color magazine titled "The brain", subtitle: "Everything you need to know about the brain, how it operate and how to keep it sharp."

I read two newspapers and both newspapers found it news to report on a publication in the professional magazine "Nature Neuroscience".

It is about the fact that we actually are born optimists. From psychology we already know for decades that we are.

Most people think, that misery, diseases and accidents always happen to others, never to themselves.

The newspaper article reveals, that this optimism isn't just a mental state, no…it is hard wired in the brain.

With fMRI scans neuroscientists have discovered that only when positive messages are received the prefrontal cortex really comes into action.

Test persons were asked to estimate their chances on all kinds of misery, from accidents to Alzheimer. Then they were confronted with the real statistics.

Asked a second time to estimate their chances, those who had mentioned higher chances than statistics predicted, adjusted their guess properly.

However those who had estimated their chances on misery lower than statistics predicted, stuck to their lower estimations with only a little adjustment.

The brain scans showed that when test persons had to adjust their estimation downward, their prefrontal cortex showed lots of activity.

But when they had to adjust their estimation upward to get in line with the statistics, most of the test persons just ignored that information and showed little activity in the prefrontal cortex.

You can imagine that when you get such information from the media continuously, unconsciously you are softened up to accept the idea that the brain is the mind.

The idea that mental states are brain states is not new.The English philosopher Thomas Hobbes (l588-1679) and his French contemporary Pierre Gassendi (l592-1655) both made the claim more than three hundred years ago.

However, the idea wasn't carefully expressed and defended until the 1950s when a group of Australian philosophers including J.J.C.Smart explored the idea.

I searched my bookshelves and found it, bought in September 1976: "A Materialist Theory of the Mind" by D.M. Armstrong (1968).

I really get nostalgic, when after I guess a 30 years or so I read the first lines of the 'Acknowledgements": "Professor J.J. Smart converted me to the view, defended in this book, that mental states are nothing but physical states of the brain" (University of Sydney).

Next lecture we'll have a detailed look at the Identity Theory. In the meantime, you just keep an eye on how often you read or see in the media messages, that support the idea that the mind is the brain.


The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:21] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:21] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:21] herman Bergson: Feel free to drop some remarks or questions ㋡
[13:22] herman Bergson: the floor is yours
[13:22] Qwark Allen: in a way it`s how media explore us, to get the message they want to us
[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - rl needs me - have a good time everyone
[13:22] Bibbe Oh: ciao
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: Ciska
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: cu
[13:22] Qwark Allen: manipulation of the message
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark...the media play an important role in shaping our thinking
[13:23] Mick Nerido: Why do you thing we are hard wired optimists?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Just go to the bookstore and look how many books there are on the brian and the mind
[13:23] Bibbe Oh: and in triggering primal response systems to manipulate our behavior
[13:23] herman Bergson: Well Mick....I think because evolutionary this has an advantage
[13:24] Qwark Allen: bad brains don`t procreate ehehhe
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:24] herman Bergson: When the brain closes itself for negative information....we stay explorers and curious after new things
[13:24] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): the neurosicences research are feeding these ideologies, but in other country they say that the mind isn't the brain but a physical extention... since we cant see its invisible part, where is the mind….core….if the brian is the feet sort of
[13:24] Bibbe Oh: some of these attached to autonomic functioning, hormone release, fight or flight, and these give rise to "feelings" which many identify as being the true self
[13:24] Mick Nerido: The glass is half full..
[13:25] Bibbe Oh: though they are products of the body regulatory systems
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Bibbe ...it is what they call the reptilian brain or limbic system in our head
[13:26] Bibbe Oh: yes
[13:26] Bibbe Oh: lizard and dog brains
[13:26] Rodney Handrick is Online
[13:27] herman Bergson: And yes Alaya....we should keep a sharp eye on the question what is science and what is ideology...
[13:27] herman Bergson: As I said...the continuing information in the media.....
[13:28] herman Bergson: on the one hand science...on the other hand…well…a specific view of reality
[13:28] Mick Nerido: There is so much more information faster than ever now...
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Mick..it is all under our fingertips now
[13:29] herman Bergson: And in our case....
[13:29] herman Bergson: the materialist theory of mind conflicts with a lot of metaphysical beliefs
[13:30] herman Bergson: But I notice that you don't worry too much about that..at least not yet :-)
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well... I guess that all was quite clear then today
[13:32] herman Bergson: unless some one still has a question or remark?
[13:32] herman Bergson: Ok... let's have an easy day :-)
[13:33] Mick Nerido: Thanks good session
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:33] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation
[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman
[13:33] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:33] Bibbe Oh: thank you!
[13:33] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i didn't hear much metaphysic data recently
[13:34] herman Bergson: Thursday will be more difficult , so be prepared ^_^
[13:34] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i ll keep an open eye
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: good byee everybody
[13:34] Qwark Allen: yes indeed
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: cu all
[13:34] Qwark Allen: very interesting
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: 9
[13:34] herman Bergson: No Alaya, today it was rather quiet on the metaphysical front
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:35] Qwark Allen: there wasn't much to go in that direction
[13:35] herman Bergson: no...
[13:35] Qwark Allen: agains't facts, not much arguments
[13:35] Qwark Allen: eheheh
[13:35] Bibbe Oh: pretty straightforward
[13:35] herman Bergson: true....
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:35] Qwark Allen: at least in what concerns the physiology of the brain
[13:36] Qwark Allen: ㋡ ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Helloooooo! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:36] Qwark Allen: Hey! rodney
[13:36] Qwark Allen: just in time
[13:36] Qwark Allen: eheheh
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: 9
[13:36] Rodney Handrick: Hi Qwark
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hi Rodney
[13:36] herman Bergson: I thought it was interesting to show you how often you are exposed these days to a specific theory of the mind in the media
[13:36] Rodney Handrick: hi Bejiita
[13:36] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): are yuo the one who always come at the exact last minut rodney?
[13:36] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:36] Qwark Allen: ehehehhe
[13:36] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:36] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:36] herman Bergson: Hi Rodney...
[13:37] Rodney Handrick: Not sure Alaya...lol
[13:37] Rodney Handrick: Hi Herman
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Alaya…Rodney comes always too late ^_^
[13:37] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): aw, then it wasn't you, there was one….that i forgot the name
[13:37] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): was it, lol
[13:37] Rodney Handrick: HA HA HA HA HA
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes That is our Rodney...
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehehe
[13:37] Rodney Handrick: HA HA HA HA HA
[13:37] Qwark Allen: so funny that smile rodney
[13:37] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): ♦♫♦.。・*゜*・。.♦♫♦♪♥❢APPLAUSE❢❤♪♦♫♦♫.。・*゜*・。.♦♫♦
[13:38] Qwark Allen: allways makes me laught
[13:38] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:38] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:38] herman Bergson: no one better in timing than he! ㋡
[13:38] Rodney Handrick: :-)
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:38] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): well ill nick name my son rodney, than, he does the same
[13:38] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:39] herman Bergson: an honor to Rodney I guess !
[13:39] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): ^^

339: The materialist Brain 5

In fact it is an amazing observation, that a religion, a system of beliefs, in this case christianity, has been able to block the development of science for so many centuries.

The classic proof of this use of power is of course the case of Copernicus and Galileo Galilei (1564 – 1642).

Not only in science was religious thinking powerful. Also in philosophy it was able to keep materialism as an ontology outside for at least 1500 years.

When the development of science couldn't be stopped anymore and Thomas Hobbes (1588 – 1679) formulated a real materialist philosophy, Descartes (1595 - 1650) saved the day by introducing his Dualism.

In those days you could be ACCUSED of atheism. But then the term "atheist" was frequently applied to people who believed in God, but not divine providence,

or to people who believed in God but also maintained other beliefs which were inconsistent with such belief.

Religion in this context is not the personal belief of an individual, but the system of cultural, social and political power of an organization.

An organization that demands to believe in certain things and forbids to believe certain other things. It even had an Index, a list of books which, tho published, were forbidden for catholics.

In line with this historical development it is not at all surprising that in recent years books like "The End of Faith" (2004) by Sam Harris or "The God Delusion" (2006) by Richard Dawkins were published.

Today neuroscientists can stimulate certain parts of the brain, which gives people certain experiences, which can be describes as religious experiences. A subject I have elaborated on in my lectures 286 to 289.

This all is a general development in Western Europe and in science in general. The triumphant progress in the twentieth century of a materialistic biology and biochemistry has almost completely eliminated vitalist notions of living forms as governed by forces additional to, and distinct from, the purely physical forces operating
on inanimate matter.

The situation of earlier ages has been reversed; it now seems implausible to maintain that the vital functions of living organisms are different in kind from chemical (ultimately, physical) processes.

In the realm of the mind, a new challenge for immaterialists has also developed. The rise of cybernetics (the abstract theory of machines) and its applications in computers threatens the idea of a special status for mental activity.

In the 1920s and 1930s some logical positivists, led by Rudolph Carnap and Otto Neurath, espoused an epistemic materialism. They held that the meaning of any statement consists in the directly testable statements deducible from it.

Inner states, however, can not be tested directly. Thence , testable physical statements should be deduced from inner states.

With testable was meant statements that were suitable for intersubjective agreement. Therefor these logical positivist regarded statements about behavior suitable candidates as "translation" of inner states.

This meant, that In this way the philosophy of language led to a behaviorist materialism and as such became an important development in the philosophy of mind with for instance, a philosopher like Gilbert Ryle with "The concept of Mind" (1949).

Ryle asserted that the workings of the mind are not distinct from the actions of the body. They are one and the same.

Mental vocabulary is, he insists, merely a different manner of describing action. He also claimed that the nature of a person's motives is defined by that person's dispositions to act in certain situations.

This was one of the first modern attacks on cartesian dualism and the definite rise of materialism in philosophy and science.


The Discussion

[2011/06/28 14:16] druth Vlodovic: well, science, since it often promotes change, is really the purview of young or transitional societies
[2011/06/28 14:16] Simargl Talaj: Nothing like a war to stimulate interest in technology.
[2011/06/28 14:16] druth Vlodovic: wb professor
[2011/06/28 14:16] druth Vlodovic: established societies will prefer changelessness because they like what they have
[2011/06/28 14:16] Carmela Sandalwood: when it comes to a question of existence or non-existence, societies will often allow questions they wouldn't otherwise allow
[2011/06/28 14:17] druth Vlodovic: in times of peace (or wars that don't actuallt threaten existence) then it is the other way around, questions become the greatest danger
[2011/06/28 14:17] herman Bergson: I am sorry....dont seem to have any stabe viewer at all anymore
[2011/06/28 14:18] druth Vlodovic: you should check your lag meter, see if it is server, connection, or your computer
[2011/06/28 14:18] herman Bergson: I am glad I maned through this lecture and discussion
[2011/06/28 14:19] herman Bergson: Druth..if I would tell you what I already had done.....
[2011/06/28 14:19] Tauto: i wish i could stay more and listen but need to leave now.
[2011/06/28 14:19] druth Vlodovic: lol, it was just a suggestion
[2011/06/28 14:19] Tauto: thank you herman and Simargl, Camela, druth for good discussion.
[2011/06/28 14:19] druth Vlodovic: please don't hit meeee!
[2011/06/28 14:19] Simargl Talaj: Herman would you be so kind as to give us the website once again that lists the books on neurobiology that pertain to this set of your lectures?
[2011/06/28 14:19] herman Bergson: take care Tauto
[2011/06/28 14:20] Carmela Sandalwood: take care tauto
[2011/06/28 14:20] Carmela Sandalwood: care
[2011/06/28 14:20] Carmela Sandalwood: I have to go soon also...need to get dinner going
[2011/06/28 14:20] Tauto: thank you bye all~
[2011/06/28 14:20] Tauto: :)
[2011/06/28 14:20] herman Bergson: Byeeee!!! :-)
[2011/06/28 14:20] Doodus Moose: byeeee!!!!!
[2011/06/28 14:20] Carmela Sandalwood: thank you very much for the class and discussion professor
[2011/06/28 14:21] herman Bergson: My pleasure Carmela..you were great
[2011/06/28 14:21] herman Bergson: interesting input....
[2011/06/28 14:21] Carmela Sandalwood: well, I am in math and physics and have a great interest in computers
[2011/06/28 14:21] Carmela Sandalwood: and am a materialist in the philosophical sense
[2011/06/28 14:22] herman Bergson: And have knowledge of history!
[2011/06/28 14:22] Carmela Sandalwood: *smiles* I try to learn
[2011/06/28 14:22] Carmela Sandalwood: it was a pleasure...so no more classes for a while?
[2011/06/28 14:23] herman Bergson: only coming thursday...last class
[2011/06/28 14:23] Carmela Sandalwood: ok...I will attempt to be there
[2011/06/28 14:23] herman Bergson: you are welcome :-)
[2011/06/28 14:24] Simargl Talaj: Thank you Herman.
[2011/06/28 14:24] Doodus Moose: Professor - you're the best. we'll talk before September
[2011/06/28 14:24] herman Bergson: ohh thank you Doodus...
[2011/06/28 14:25] Doodus Moose: looks like you're cleaning up, Prof!
[2011/06/28 14:25] Doodus Moose: byeeeee!!!!!!
[2011/06/28 14:26] herman Bergson: more cosy :-)
[2011/06/28 14:26] druth Vlodovic: :)
[2011/06/28 14:26] druth Vlodovic: have you ever heard the idea of "emergent properties"?
[2011/06/28 14:26] druth Vlodovic: it was last weeks topic at thothica
[2011/06/28 14:26] herman Bergson: yes...
[2011/06/28 14:27] herman Bergson: but it is a bit misleading idea...
[2011/06/28 14:27] druth Vlodovic: my first reaction was that it is a last ditch attempt to recover magical thinking in science
[2011/06/28 14:27] druth Vlodovic: misleading how?
[2011/06/28 14:28] herman Bergson: exactly....it has a dualistic character
[2011/06/28 14:28] herman Bergson: to emerge is an action which needs a force....
[2011/06/28 14:28] herman Bergson: so...emerging properties are properties created by some force...
[2011/06/28 14:28] herman Bergson: and that is bull ^_^
[2011/06/28 14:29] druth Vlodovic: either from a smaller base or interaction with other factors
[2011/06/28 14:29] druth Vlodovic: oh, by "some force"you meant an unknown one
[2011/06/28 14:30] herman Bergson: It suggest that there is some mystic energy in matter that makes properties emerge...
[2011/06/28 14:30] druth Vlodovic: yes
[2011/06/28 14:30] herman Bergson: complete nonsense
[2011/06/28 14:30] druth Vlodovic: they didn't like my arguments ;-?
[2011/06/28 14:30] herman Bergson: lol
[2011/06/28 14:31] herman Bergson: you have been too long in my class perhaps :-)
[2011/06/28 14:31] druth Vlodovic: it is a good kludge I guess, you can work with larger scale without learning smaller scale
[2011/06/28 14:31] druth Vlodovic: but as an idea I think it leads to a type of thinking that is potentially damaging
[2011/06/28 14:31] druth Vlodovic: I wish I could get to more of them
[2011/06/28 14:31] druth Vlodovic: my RL schedule is weird
[2011/06/28 14:32] herman Bergson: doesn't matter...
[2011/06/28 14:32] herman Bergson: when you are here..all is good :-)
[2011/06/28 14:32] druth Vlodovic: :)
[2011/06/28 14:32] druth Vlodovic: you'll turn my head, I swear!
[2011/06/28 14:32] herman Bergson: turn your head???
[2011/06/28 14:33] herman Bergson: I'd love to keep it in place where it is!
[2011/06/28 14:34] druth Vlodovic: what are your big plans now your students have abandoned you?
[2011/06/28 14:34] herman Bergson: They didn't abandon me..lol..they just went home or elsewhere ;-)
[2011/06/28 14:35] herman Bergson: And I have no plans at all

338: The materialist Brain 4

After our sidetrack on the question "What is matter?", let's return to our main road, that of investigating materialism itself.

If fact, for a materialist, it hardly matters, what matter is made of. Atoms, molecules, whatever, maybe with the exception that matter complies to laws of nature.

When you look at the history of materialism, you look at the basic philosophical question "What exists?" And it is astonishing to see how the human mind has answered that question.

Materialism, and thence monism, has been a theme in European speculative thought from the earliest periods for which there is any record. In the previous lecture I already mentioned Leucippus and his pupil Democritus, who lived in the 5th center BCE!

Their basic idea was that the fundamental stuff was of just one kind (matter) and that the fundamental entities were material atoms. These atoms are in constant motion in a void that surrounds them.

Then when you look at a few theses that can be deduced from their "atom theory" and when you ask yourself the question "How can a human mind come to such insights",

if you take into account that those Greeks had no technology whatsoever, that could have suggested these conclusions, it is amazing.

Theses about what is formulated more than 2500 years ago!

(1) Nothing exists but atoms and empty space.

(2) Nothing happens by chance (for no reason at all);everything occurs for a reason and of necessity.This necessity is natural and mechanical; it excludes teleological necessitation.

(3) Nothing can arise out of nothing; nothing that is can be destroyed. All novelties are merely new combinations or separations of atoms.

The conclusions you can come to drawn from these theses are far reaching.
The world is purely mechanical, an idea that became the basis of of the scientific revolution of the 17th century.

Teleological necessitation is excluded. This means that matter, or we could say, the world, just is as it is, changing because of mechanical, that is causal processes. But there is now direction in that process, not a necessary goal it is steering at.

"Nothing can arise out of nothing" is an interesting thesis because of its implications. It leads to a number of metaphysical riddles. One is: there never was a creation. Do we have to conclude that there was never a beginning?

How do we have to understand the Big Bang from this perspective? Is our mind in any way able to understand the concept of Beginning?

When you look at the history of materialism you see, that this kind of thinking was suppressed for almost 1500 years.

Religious thinking, in this case christianity, was so dominant and powerful, that materialism was just a heresy and good for the stake.

From the close of the classical period until the Renaissance the church and Aristotle so dominated European speculation that materialist theories virtually lapsed.

Pierre Gassendi (1592–1655), who in the last part of his life taught astronomy at the Royal College in Paris, was the first one who brought materialism back in the spotlights.

But he still needed a trick. To bring his materialist ideas into closer conformity with Christian doctrine, he claimed that the atoms are not eternal but created.

They are finite, not infinite, in number and are organized in our particular world by a providential determination of initial conditions.

In England Thomas Hobbes (1588–1679) was much more consistent and uncompromising. Hobbes hoped to use the new non-Aristotelian physics of the seventeenth century as the basis for a final, complete account of reality.

No part of the universe is not a body, said Hobbes, and no part of the universe contains no body.Hobbes was a plenist, holding all space to be filled by an intangible material ether if nothing else.

And then Descartes stepped in. The influence of Gassendi and Hobbes was diminished by the prestige of their brilliant contemporary, Rene
Descartes (1596–1650),

who accepted a materialist and mechanical account of the inanimate world and the brute creation but insisted that men had immaterial, immortal spirits whose essential nature lay in conscious thought undetermined by causal processes.

According to Descartes, there are in the world two quite different sortsnof things, extended (material) substances and thinking (spiritual) substances, which are mysteriously united in the case of humankind.

So, after the Middle Ages, which was a dark period for materialism, we now got stuck for another 300 years with the dominance of Dualism, which was politically much more correct than monism.


The Discussion

[2011/06/23 13:25] herman Bergson: to be continued ....thank you :-))
[2011/06/23 13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[2011/06/23 13:26] Mick Nerido: Care to speculate how the Greeks came up with Monism with no tech to hepl them discover it?
[2011/06/23 13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): all conflicting as usual
[2011/06/23 13:27] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): how could Leucippus and Democritus know that there were things like atoms?
[2011/06/23 13:27] herman Bergson: That is what I find so fascinating Mick
[2011/06/23 13:27] herman Bergson: I have no idea how they could develop such a model of reality...
[2011/06/23 13:27] Mick Nerido: The GREEKS HAD MANY GODS
[2011/06/23 13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): those philosophers knew more than we give them credit for
[2011/06/23 13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as far as the physical world goes
[2011/06/23 13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma.....but the idea of atoms....
[2011/06/23 13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know :-)
[2011/06/23 13:28] herman Bergson: First they thought all was composed of earth , air , water and fire
[2011/06/23 13:28] Bejiita Imako: aa yes
[2011/06/23 13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but maybe their idea of atom is different from the microscopic atom
[2011/06/23 13:28] Mick Nerido: Yes there philosophers were like scientists
[2011/06/23 13:29] Bejiita Imako: the elements yes
[2011/06/23 13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[2011/06/23 13:29] Bejiita Imako: the word atom mean unsplitable
[2011/06/23 13:29] Bejiita Imako: but later we found out thats not the case either
[2011/06/23 13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and then guess what!!
[2011/06/23 13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[2011/06/23 13:30] herman Bergson: Well...just the belief that all things were composed of small particles and just become what they are by configuration of the particles...
[2011/06/23 13:30] herman Bergson: and not by properties of the particles themselves
[2011/06/23 13:31] Mick Nerido: Very strange that they came to this theory with no tech...
[2011/06/23 13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[2011/06/23 13:31] herman Bergson: I have no idea why their reasoning went in such a monist direction
[2011/06/23 13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Mick the more you think about it the more fascinating it becomes
[2011/06/23 13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[2011/06/23 13:32] herman Bergson: But it is the work of the human mind.....
[2011/06/23 13:32] herman Bergson: There is however a consequence......
[2011/06/23 13:32] herman Bergson: more than 2500 years ago there was amodel of reality implanted in our thinking....
[2011/06/23 13:33] herman Bergson: we still use that model.....
[2011/06/23 13:33] herman Bergson: I would say basically for pragmatic reasons...
[2011/06/23 13:33] herman Bergson: But when it comes to the mind.....
[2011/06/23 13:33] herman Bergson: the model isnt complete....
[2011/06/23 13:34] Tauto Resident: I'm not sure I understand it correctly, but
[2011/06/23 13:34] Tauto Resident: Guess what is called the prototype of the model do?
[2011/06/23 13:35] Mick Nerido: The Greeks were great theorists inventing Geomerty etc...
[2011/06/23 13:35] herman Bergson: Yes.....quite different from what they now are ^_^
[2011/06/23 13:35] Bejiita Imako: y
[2011/06/23 13:35] Bejiita Imako: the saying
[2011/06/23 13:35] Bejiita Imako: already the old greeks
[2011/06/23 13:35] herman Bergson: Well Tauto....
[2011/06/23 13:36] Mick Nerido: Mathematics had a lot do do with their thinking
[2011/06/23 13:36] herman Bergson: the basic model of reality is that it is constructed out of small particles
[2011/06/23 13:36] (tauto): i just can't follow as fast as and as acurate all.
[2011/06/23 13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes
[2011/06/23 13:36] herman Bergson: The interaction between brain and environment has created that idea...
[2011/06/23 13:37] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): is this old idea true?
[2011/06/23 13:37] herman Bergson: That is the point Beertje....You CAN ask that question.....
[2011/06/23 13:38] Mick Nerido: perhaps we instinctivly reflect the true material world in our brains
[2011/06/23 13:38] herman Bergson: and when it comes to the mind....seen from a materialist point of view you have a problem...
[2011/06/23 13:38] herman Bergson: all that exists is matter....ok
[2011/06/23 13:38] herman Bergson: this matter.....our brain chemistry is than said, produses the mind....
[2011/06/23 13:39] herman Bergson: is the mind material too?
[2011/06/23 13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm
[2011/06/23 13:39] herman Bergson: If not what isit then?
[2011/06/23 13:39] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): and if it's true..can we re arrange it?
[2011/06/23 13:39] herman Bergson: Is it a feature of the brain chemistry
[2011/06/23 13:40] Tauto Resident: Many psychologists are still other kinds of brain and mind can believe that.
[2011/06/23 13:40] herman Bergson: like liquidity is a feature of H2O molecules?
[2011/06/23 13:40] herman Bergson: We still have a long way to go to get these questions answered
[2011/06/23 13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[2011/06/23 13:40] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): maybe another 2500 years...
[2011/06/23 13:41] Bejiita Imako: is an interesting question indeed whaqt makes up the mind
[2011/06/23 13:41] herman Bergson: Oh we will have a lot of fun with that question Bejiita :-)
[2011/06/23 13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): LOL
[2011/06/23 13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): over and over
[2011/06/23 13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma ......
[2011/06/23 13:42] Tauto Resident: I have to wonder. For example, brain damage or remove any part make them human morality says about whether to have.
[2011/06/23 13:42] Mick Nerido: lucky the greek ideas were not lost...
[2011/06/23 13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): how many classes are we up to now
[2011/06/23 13:42] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): strange thing..that some protein can influence the mind..like Alzheimer
[2011/06/23 13:42] herman Bergson: But I yet believe that by the end of this project you really have a better understanding of the situation we are in
[2011/06/23 13:43] herman Bergson: yes Beertje..and what you say Tauto.....
[2011/06/23 13:44] herman Bergson: We only can say then that the Brain is the Mind
[2011/06/23 13:44] (tauto): i wish i have exactly accurate translator.
[2011/06/23 13:44] herman Bergson: such a thing doesn't exist Tauto....unfortunately
[2011/06/23 13:44] 방랑자 (tauto): oh..
[2011/06/23 13:44] herman Bergson: One of the big differences between the mind and acomputer....
[2011/06/23 13:45] herman Bergson: A computer isn't able to give MEANING to words...
[2011/06/23 13:45] herman Bergson: especially within a context...
[2011/06/23 13:45] (tauto): i see.
[2011/06/23 13:45] (taut): i try to write a exact word in english then.
[2011/06/23 13:46] herman Bergson: The plane banks to the bank of the river to avoid crashing into the bank in mainstreet
[2011/06/23 13:46] Mick Nerido: Greek word "nous" not translatable into English
[2011/06/23 13:46] herman Bergson: Well...you could translate it as mind
[2011/06/23 13:47] (tauto): ^^
[2011/06/23 13:47] Mick Nerido: But not exact translated my point
[2011/06/23 13:47] herman Bergson: But it included also the soul
[2011/06/23 13:47] herman Bergson: no...I agree
[2011/06/23 13:48] Mick Nerido: A great class, I must go thanks all for a stimulating discussion
[2011/06/23 13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye „ã°
[2011/06/23 13:48] 방랑자 (tauto): bye Mick
[2011/06/23 13:48] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye Mick
[2011/06/23 13:48] herman Bergson: Bye mick...thank you too
[2011/06/23 13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): LOL
[2011/06/23 13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i wont see you til september
[2011/06/23 13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok cu mick
[2011/06/23 13:48] Bejiita Imako: very interesting for sure
[2011/06/23 13:49] herman Bergson: Well....when Mick leaves....I cant hold you here any longer ^_^
[2011/06/23 13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): LOL
[2011/06/23 13:49] herman Bergson: So...thank you all for your participation...
[2011/06/23 13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!!
[2011/06/23 13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for class
[2011/06/23 13:49] Bejiita Imako: nice once again
[2011/06/23 13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))
[2011/06/23 13:49] (tauto): thank you herman and all.
[2011/06/23 13:49] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu
[2011/06/23 13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank You Herman..i have a lot to think about again:)
[2011/06/23 13:50] herman Bergson: ok Beertje ^_^
[2011/06/23 13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye everybody...

311: The Brain and Social Emotions

In the last two lectures I have drawn your attention to the fact that the subject of our current project is not just an interesting philosophical topic in general, but a hot issue in science and in the public debate nowaday.

Now it's time to revert to our plotted course again and focus on the biological and evolutionary roots of our basic emotions.

In lecture 306 I stated that emotions are biological systems, just like blood pressure or reflexes or the working of enzymes. They are not, as often is assumed, jammers or annoying obstacles that frustrate the ratio.

Another thing we have to keep in mind is, that when you look at the evolution of the brain, emotions developed prior to our so highly valued rationality.

In lecture 307 I defined emotion thus: Emotions show themselves by feelings, for instance fear, but the emotion is much more than just that feeling.

Thence, an emotion is a driving force which as an orchestra conductor ensures that a number of specific behavioral systems run in parallel and work together to solve an acute problem.

The emotion pushes all actions of the person for instance in fear into one direction. And it is through evolution that we have developed this system of emotions, which ensures our survival and ability to live as a social being.

Before we go into detail about some basic emotions, their individual functions and evolutionary advantages, we have to consider an interesting view.

It is regarding the biological function of emotions. They emerged in the evolutionary process. They were transferred and inherited from generation onto generation.

It means, that probably the basic emotions made us fittest for survival, which means best adapted to our environment. This environment was the group.

Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679) had no idea of an evolution of emotions, but yet he was to the point by stating that the fear of death and the need for security are the psychological foundations both of worldly prudence and of civilization itself.

“Reason,” he said, “declaring peace to be good, it follows by the same reason, that all the necessary means to peace be good also”, otherwise there would be no society, and the life of man would be “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”

It is philosophically characteristic that Hobbes bases the inevitability of social behavior on reason, while from an evolutionary point of view we now know that human sociality is primarily based on emotions, as defined here.

It is interesting to think of it, that in those days many philosophers were convinced of the idea that society was based on some kind of social contract, formulated by our reason.

But in fact the situation is much more basic. Nowaday we cover all our obligations and those of others with signed contracts and legal stuff.

However, a hundred thousand years ago our ancestors didn't even dream of contracts. Yet they had contracts, like the evolution biologist Robert Trivers states.

An emotion is a contract. To survive people had to co-operate, for instance in building a shelter or in hunting down a mammoth.

Such mutual co-operation is fragile. It could be easily destroyed by individual greed and dishonesty, but the social power of emotions has found solutions for that.

On solution which made the evolution of mutual co-operation possible was to punish the group member immediately for cheating and deception.

A second solution was to "sign" a contract of mutual co-operation with a social emotion, which we for instance could call "guilt' or a feeling of obligation.

Maybe you doubt this idea, thinking that you'd rather prefer a clear and rational agreement without the need to count on emotions.

But that is probably a consequence of our deeply ingrained attitude to keep emotions out and prefer rationality.

This however underestimates the power of our basic emotions. The gnawing power of guilt is stronger than we think, than we rationally are willing to believe.

Of course the "emotion signature" isn't absolute. There have always been people who cheat and deceive, steal and murder,

but the basic emotions have in general directed our behavior in the best direction to solve (social) problems, otherwise evolution hadn't produced a homo sapiens capable of such complex social behavior as we see today.

It may be clear by now, that our brain, which we almost automatically equate with ratio and intelligence, can not be separated from emotions and feelings.

In the following lectures I'll discuss the basic emotions of Joy and Happiness, Grief, Anger, Marvel, Loathing and Disgust, Shame, Guilt and Pride. So, be ready for it…..


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you....for your attention...:-)
[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): feels guilty ....
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hahahah
[13:24] herman Bergson: you were in IM GEmma????lol
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: Shame on u Gemma!
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in the kitchen
[13:24] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l
[13:24] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[13:24] Mick Nerido: Emotions=instincts?
[13:24] herman Bergson: lol...
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: eating as usual?
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:25] herman Bergson: Don't know Mick...it is just a word...
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: need to stuff myself with something soon
[13:25] herman Bergson: but to some extend I think you are right
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: some tasty stuff
[13:26] herman Bergson: ah..my stuff isn't tasty Bejiita????? :-)
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: yes but u can't eat it
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:26] Mick Nerido: Like an animal "knows" what to do without rational thought
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: well my brain maybe
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:26] herman Bergson: no ..you only can digest it...^_^
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:27] herman Bergson: ok...let's make it a lazy day...nothing to discuss ..^_^
[13:27] Qwark Allen: i just have one remark
[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: i think the most important question is . which emotions are inherited,to say genetically based..which introduced by culture..
[13:27] herman Bergson: Gemma is in the kitchen...Bejiita needs some good stuff...name it
[13:27] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): oh.. need to go .. sorry
[13:27] Mick Nerido: I rushed home to be here...:)
[13:27] Qwark Allen: ~when they said 100 000 years, to me seems short
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oops too late
[13:28] Qwark Allen: cause our specie is in this planet at , at least 500 000
[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: sapiens is about 100 000 years
[13:28] Qwark Allen: i`m talking about sapiens
[13:28] Qwark Allen: us
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well i do not think with the same sensibilities
[13:28] Qwark Allen: so this should be more ancient then it seems
[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: you Q.yes
[13:29] Qwark Allen: seems logical that this kind of behaviour it`s among us at a long time
[13:29] herman Bergson: no Qwark.....just look at the evolution diagram at the wall
[13:30] Qwark Allen: they just found out a tooth from a homo sapiens, with 400 000 years
[13:30] herman Bergson: The homo habilis , 2.5 million years ago was able to create tools
[13:30] Qwark Allen: at israel
[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: Africa Q
[13:30] Qwark Allen: asia
[13:30] Qwark Allen: euro asia
[13:30] herman Bergson: Welll...could be at the level of neandethaler....
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes africa was before asia
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): all came out of africa
[13:31] Qwark Allen: at a point there was 5 different hominides
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: Africa is where we come from originally
[13:31] Qwark Allen: including us
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): amazing we made it
[13:31] Mick Nerido: The Neanderthaler has a bad rep
[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: they showed he was much better than his reputation mick
[13:32] herman Bergson: but our level of development is of the late pleistocene...40.000 years ago..the cro magnon for instance
[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes and there was some inter breeding as well they say
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: and they existed longer than we did under difficult conditions
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...amazing we made it....the right words
[13:33] Qwark Allen: there is not in the wall, the homo hobit, that was a sapiens too
[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: amazing THEY made it:)
[13:33] herman Bergson: and amazing how we screw up now ^_^
[13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:33] Mick Nerido: Clan of the cave bears a good read about Neanderthals
[13:34] Qwark Allen: just saying that human history is not totally as how they told it was
[13:34] herman Bergson: yes..nice literature Mick....loved it
[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: la guerre du feu a good movie....
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes I have seen it Baldur....was great indeed
[13:34] Qwark Allen: just fiction, like star wars
[13:35] herman Bergson: calculated guessing Qwark...
[13:35] Qwark Allen: bad calculation
[13:35] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l
[13:35] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:35] herman Bergson: which is not the case in Starwars...
[13:35] Mick Nerido: But the author postulated they were smart but were not able to adapt like us
[13:35] Qwark Allen: that a possible calculation, based in our grow as science
[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: smile how long will we adapt mick:)?
[13:36] herman Bergson: Why the Neanderthalers disappeared we'll never know...
[13:36] Qwark Allen: we know
[13:36] Qwark Allen: they were not so good prepared as us
[13:36] Qwark Allen: and they mixed with us
[13:36] Qwark Allen: last ones found was in iberic peninsule, 15000 years ago
[13:36] Mick Nerido: I see a lot of Neanderthals at WallMart
[13:36] Qwark Allen: around the ice age
[13:37] herman Bergson: but the brain of the Neanderthaler was larger than that of the homo sapiens...
[13:37] Qwark Allen: cause of this we have micro cefalie
[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: they were well prepared for more than 100000 years Q
[13:37] Qwark Allen: in our genes
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Hnnn Hnnn Hnnn ! ҳ̸Ҳ̸ҳ
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I want a Big Fish
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Gimme
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Gimme a Big Fish
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Pleasssseee !!!!!
[13:37] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l
[13:37] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): OOPS
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hahah not fishing yet Gemma
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): SOME TRIGGER
[13:37] herman Bergson: Gemma???
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:37] herman Bergson: Are you ok???
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): YES
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hahah
[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: food poisoning.....
[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: affects the brain.:)
[13:38] herman Bergson: Seems so Baldur...
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hahah
[13:38] herman Bergson: A bit of a weird class today ^_^
[13:38] Qwark Allen whispers: it is
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: fun as always
[13:38] Qwark Allen: it`s stills about evolution ^^
[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: st patricks day for our american friends.. too much to drink i think lol
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...but I am puzzled by the results I find in my class today ^_^
[13:39] Mick Nerido: St Patrics Day too much green bear
[13:39] Qwark Allen: i`m portuguese ^^
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Beer
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: mmm beeeer
[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: nobody is perfect Q lol
[13:39] herman Bergson: Gemma must be Irish then ^_^
[13:39] Qwark Allen: i know ehehhe
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not really
[13:39] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l
[13:39] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Spring feaver?
[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some part
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: katarina, she's the only one in green....
[13:40] katarina Bianco: :)
[13:40] Qwark Allen: i just said about late science developments
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but everyone is irish here on st pat's day
[13:40] herman Bergson: I must appologize Katarina....the class is really misbehaving....never happened before
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hmm and the new party place is decorated for this day right?
[13:40] herman Bergson: Must be spring fever indeed
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh right
[13:40] Qwark Allen: yes bejita
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: so after this we can celebrate st patricks there
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: nice
[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: its all emotions katarina:)
[13:41] katarina Bianco: I like green color and beer.. for me every day is St. Patrick day :)
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and yes I have spring fever
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: but tomorrow should be at least 10 cm snow and ice again AAARRRRGGGH
[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: hey.. ..a smart girl amongst us welcome kat....
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: tired of snow now
[13:42] katarina Bianco: ty
[13:42] Mick Nerido: WE feel safe here so we show the emotion of happiness
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh no
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): snow?
[13:42] herman Bergson laughs
[13:42] herman Bergson: Good thinking Mick
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes so they told in the weather report for sweden
[13:42] Mick Nerido: thanks
[13:42] herman Bergson: But I would say: CLASS DISMISSED
[13:42] Qwark Allen: Hooooooo!!!!!!! \o/
[13:42] Qwark Allen: |
[13:42] Qwark Allen: / \
[13:42] Qwark Allen: ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
[13:42] Qwark Allen: Hoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:43] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:43] Qwark Allen: ty
[13:43] herman Bergson: enjoy your next hours...have fun..it seems to be in your blood at the moment!
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: some more interesting subjects to think of
[13:43] Qwark Allen: was missing class
[13:43] Qwark Allen: .-)

304: The Brain and Free Will

It is often said that man has a "free will" because we have choices. This is not true. Every organism is constantly making choices. Point is, are these choices free?

A definition of free will could be: the possibility to decide to do or not to do something without internal or external constraints, which determine this choice.

Not a new idea. For Thomas Hobbes (1588 – 1679) liberty is simply the “absence of all the impediments to action that are not contained in the nature and intrinsical quality of the agent.”

According to Hobbes all voluntary human action, he thought, is caused by the alternate operation of the general motives of desire and aversion, which he took to be similar to, and, indeed, varieties of, physical forces.

The proximate or immediate cause of a voluntary motion is an act of the will, but an act of the will is never free in the sense of being uncaused. It is caused by some kind of desire or aversion.

Spinoza (1632 -1677) takes it one step further and says, that free will does not exist. He illustrates this in his Ethica with some examples:

"Does a baby decide in freedom that it will drink? Does an angry man decide in freedom that he wants revenge? Does the coward decide in freedom that he will run away?"

Our present knowledge of neurobiology confirms what Spinoza already said: complete free will does not exist. Many hereditary factors and environmental influences affect the development of the brain.

Our gender identity, sexual preferences, native language, our genetic background…..we can make this list longer, but the items show how we are loaded with internal constraints.

We don't approve or disapprove things because we have thought it over, but because we can't do otherwise. Ethics is the consequence of our old evolutionary instincts, which are focused to do what does no harm the group.

We decide many things in a split second or based on a hunch or intuition. We "choose" a partner by falling in love at first sight.

Neuroscience shows us that an enormous amount of information processing takes place in our brain of which we are not aware.

When you show pictures of naked men and women to one eye of a heterosexual man for only a split second, so that he can not really see what is shown, the eye yet turns to the naked women pictures and turns away from the naked men pictures.

Emotions play an important role too as do cultural and social background in all this subconscious information processing.

In such a brain is little room for a conscious free will at all. This has serious consequences, for, when we hold someone responsible for his actions, we assume the existence of a free will.

Daniel M. Wegner is an American social psychologist. He is a professor of psychology at Harvard University. His book, The Illusion of Conscious Will, tackles the long-debated notion of free will through the scope of experimental psychology.

In stead of free will he talks about an unconscious will, but we need the illusion of the free will to label our actions as "this is mine and this I am".

Experiment: Touch the dot that will flash for a second on a screen . When the dot flashed, within 0.1 seconds the stimulus was on its way from the visual cortex to the motoric cortex.

When the processing of the visual cortex was interrupted by a magnetic pulse the test person yet touched the screen, but wasn't aware of the flashing dot.

So between the process in the visual cortex and the motoric cortex there was no conscious process of deciding to touch the screen or not.

There may be some room for a free will in the situation that we ponder about a decision to make and take into account all possible consequences, but otherwise it seems to be an interesting illusion.



The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:20] herman Bergson: You are free to make a remark or ask a question ㋡
[13:20] herman Bergson: The floor is yours
[13:20] Cain Levasseur: This opens serious questions on Penal Law
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes Cain.....
[13:21] herman Bergson: The more neurobiological insight we obtain the more serious this debate will become
[13:21] Mick Nerido: Desire or pleasure vs aversion, we can choose to go against this but it is not "natural"
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well the basic program of us as organism is to avoid pain and to seek pleasure...
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: yes true
[13:22] herman Bergson: A biological fact of all sentient beings...
[13:22] Mick Nerido: Yes but we can choose pain
[13:23] herman Bergson: WHo seeks pain experiences pleasure , I would say
[13:23] Mick Nerido: say like study all night rather than party all night
[13:23] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): of course all this neurobiological manipulation assumes that the brain is as singular entity and that the decision as to which path to follow is electical
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle.....
[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thus eliminating free will
[13:24] herman Bergson: Tho some people have two brains....
[13:24] herman Bergson: two wills even.....
[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): freewill requires the belief in duality
[13:24] herman Bergson: it is called the alien-hand syndrome.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: when communication between the two hemispheres of the brian is disrupted...
[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think our primal instinctual brain allows for no free will
[13:25] herman Bergson: such patients have two hands...one who put on the pants and the other hand that takes of the pants in the same time
[13:25] Mick Nerido: the higher brain also?
[13:25] Alaya Kumaki: there might be certain thing that the brain is already made to do from birth, as the sucking reflect of the baby, but i wonder if there is much more than that, just that it will manifest much later during the development
[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it is our evolved cerebral brain that determines the path
[13:26] herman Bergson: Our brain is loaded with activity Alaya......
[13:26] herman Bergson: much of which we are not aware of...
[13:27] herman Bergson: Consciousness is just a babble box someone once said....
[13:27] Alaya Kumaki: i prefer scrabble
[13:27] herman Bergson: always running after the facts with its stories
[13:27] Clerisse Beeswing: Where does our subconscience lay?
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Were the stoics feeling pleasure?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Well Clerisse...the subconscious in a Freudian sense doesnt exist...
[13:28] Clerisse Beeswing: wow..never knew that
[13:29] herman Bergson: But the brain does process lots of information that influences our behavior without us being aware of it
[13:29] Alaya Kumaki: the stoic is a school of thought not a species mick
[13:29] herman Bergson: In a way Freud was right....
[13:30] herman Bergson: That experiences at young age are stored and influential at alter age
[13:30] Clerisse Beeswing: Is that why a stroke hits a brain no matter which side it does damage?
[13:30] Now playing: Antonio Vivaldi - Rachel Podger, Arte Dei Suonatori - Vioolconcert in e op.4/2 RV279 (Channel Cl. CCS 19598)
[13:30] herman Bergson: What do you mean Clerisse?
[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: They say when you have a stroke it is either the right side or left side that is effected
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well...canbe any place in the brain.....
[13:31] Mick Nerido: I stiil think the conscious part of the mind can freely choose but it is not completely free
[13:32] herman Bergson: But I guess it is 50 -50 in which hemisphere it happens
[13:32] Clerisse Beeswing: Right..why can't they just say hey your brain waves were interrupted by a stroke or something
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....we are somewhere in between that observation....
[13:33] herman Bergson: But for instance the law is still based on total responsebility for our actions.....
[13:33] herman Bergson: There are amendements….for instance to take into account the mental condition of a criminal....
[13:34] herman Bergson: But that is also only a recent addition to our sense of justice
[13:35] herman Bergson: Neuroscience will reveal more and more about the functioning of the brain and thence our reasons of behaving
[13:35] Mick Nerido: Free will could be something we are evolving toward not here quite yet
[13:35] herman Bergson: I doubt that....
[13:35] Mick Nerido: Why?
[13:35] herman Bergson: The brain has its history..IS wired in a certain way.....
[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: free will might be part of the brain and heart
[13:36] herman Bergson: You cant choose your talents for instance...you have them or not
[13:36] herman Bergson: You cant choose not to have ADHD....
[13:36] herman Bergson: You have it because your mother smoked a lot during her pregnancy….this affects the development of the brain of the fetus
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: aa same with what kind of interests u have for example
[13:36] Mick Nerido: We could build a free will computer like brain...
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....we are a preprogrammed machine ㋡
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ex I ve always been technical interested and so since a little kid
[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): we can be shackled by both heredity and nurturing but educated enlightment can neutralize the nurtured deficiencies thru informed rationality
[13:37] herman Bergson: And we try to figure our what it means to be conscious and in what sense we are free
[13:38] herman Bergson: rationality.....an overestimated feature of the organism, named human being :-)
[13:38] Mick Nerido: Freedom requires conscious choice
[13:39] Alaya Kumaki: yes herman, the youth experience is very influent, because learned 2thing at a very early age, and now i do it witout thinking about it, as walking on ice slipping and taking over to the stand position, without falling,,(i skate at age 4) and trowing a paper ball in a basket(i did basket ball at 7),,not thinking anymore while trowing anything in a hole, it just goes by itself
[13:39] herman Bergson: As I said.....
[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): rationality being a selfish motivation
[13:40] Alaya Kumaki: sorry for the sentence, it was longer than i thoughts, i couldn't see it fully in the chat box
[13:40] herman Bergson: Maybe...in the situation that we think about the consequences of our actions....that we THEN have a situation of free choice
[13:41] herman Bergson: you are excused Alaya ^_^
[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes and which consequences benefit us the most
[13:42] Mick Nerido: we seem to have a lot less freedom than I thought...
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....it seems to be the case indeed....
[13:42] Alaya Kumaki: so many thing get print into the brain, and we don't chooses them.. anymore
[13:42] herman Bergson: Just think about how many things a day you do on autopilot...
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hmm well when I think about it, its often 1 my personality and 2 external influence that have some influence at löeast i think in how i make my decisions and so¨
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: can be very possible
[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): one must teach their children to think critically from a early age
[13:43] herman Bergson: YEs Alaya....and all those imprints make how your brain processes the information....
[13:43] Mick Nerido: I freely choose to be here today:)
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:44] Alaya Kumaki: aristotle i do believe that many thing are god to do very early, but respecting the age level
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: Im here cause IU like to be here, ints interesting
[13:44] Alaya Kumaki: good*
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: your want for new knowledge made ya Mick )
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and also nice people here
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Mick... there is some free will in our actions...certainly....
[13:45] herman Bergson: But where the unconscious will ends and the 'free' will begins...don't know :-)
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and like to learn new stuff
[13:45] Mick Nerido: I treasure my freedom because it is so rare
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and get surprised now and then ㋡
[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): those things that necessitate our survival are the only things that denies us total freedom
[13:46] Mick Nerido: Did Beethoven freely choose to write music?
[13:47] herman Bergson: maybe not....
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: guess he did cause music was his main interest genetically influenced
[13:47] herman Bergson: It just happened because his brain was for some reason wired in that way..
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: or something like that
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: like my interests and everyones
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: determines what u want to be when u grow up
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes..like spirituality is in your genes....
[13:48] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or was he just smart of enough to recognize the wiring?
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aa must be same thing I guess sort of
[13:48] herman Bergson: some people have no interest n spirituality...and this can be seen in their genes....
[13:48] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): amen
[13:48] herman Bergson: itis genetiically determined
[13:49] herman Bergson: OK...gave you another nut to crack ^_^
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)
[13:49] herman Bergson: SO thank you for the nice debate...
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): crunching now
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: nice again Herman ㋡
[13:50] CONNIE Eichel: great class :)
[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you Professor
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: Thank you professor
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you CONNIE
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: this get MORE AND MORE interesting every time
[13:50] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:50] Qwark Allen: very intersting as usual! thank you
[13:50] Peli (peli.dieterle): ! ! ! Applause ! ! !
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Very intersting and stimulating
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe¨
[13:50] CONNIE Eichel: yw :)
[1[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: thank you professr thanks all . have a great evening :)
[13:51] herman Bergson: my pleasure Beertje
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cu soon
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:51] Cain Levasseur: Thank you very much professor
[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight
[13:52] Westie Easterman: Thank you Mister
[13:52] Alaya Kumaki: in the gene? spirituality?
[13:52] herman Bergson: yes....
[13:52] Alaya Kumaki: did they found the gene?
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Alaya....
[13:52] Alaya Kumaki: whoa!!!
[13:52] CONNIE Eichel: bye all, have a good night :)
[13:53] herman Bergson: I have to look it up who did that butit is a fact
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu soon
[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: i wish i can see what it look like
[13:53] herman Bergson: Bye CONNIE
[13:53] CONNIE Eichel: :)
[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: its was very amazingly interesting
[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: cause of my genes)
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well....read it like this....
[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: P
[13:54] herman Bergson: the inclination to adopt spiritual views about life is stronger is some persons than in others
[13:55] herman Bergson: and this willingness to uphold spiritual views is among other things also genetically determined
[13:55] Alaya Kumaki: i can make a jokes, about that, like, a words games
[13:55] Alaya Kumaki: yu know man like woman in pants others dont, depend of the jeans!!
[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): good bye all, thanks again Herman
[13:56] herman Bergson: Bye Aristotle
[13:56] Alaya Kumaki: gosh its getting dark here, i got to low my screen light, laptop screen light flashes my eyes...cant type anymore
[13:57] Alaya Kumaki: see yu nexr time
[13:57] Alaya Kumaki: thanks herman)
[13:57] herman Bergson: ok Alaya
[13:57] herman Bergson: Hi Melusina ㋡
[13:57] Alaya Kumaki: byby
[13:57] Melusina (melu.klaxon): hi Mr :)
[13:58] Cain Levasseur: it was very interesting professor
[13:58] herman Bergson: thank you Cain...
[13:59] Cain Levasseur: in my law class we discuss the thing about free will
[13:59] Cain Levasseur: but our professors try to avoid the subject
[13:59] herman Bergson: I can imagine.....
[14:00] herman Bergson: Philosophically there is no clear answer to the issue....
[14:00] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Sorry, i wasnt here for the whole debate - Was anything mentioned about Determinsm? THat is quite an interesting theory which goes quite nicley in the debate of freewill.
[14:00] herman Bergson: The neuroscience puts it again in a new perspective....
[14:00] Cain Levasseur: yes, how we punish a person on one hand, and how we keep a secure society
[14:01] Cain Levasseur: how we punish a non-free person i mean
[14:01] herman Bergson: yes.....and neurologically it is already proven that we just LOVE to punish...:-)
[14:01] Cain Levasseur: thats too bad
[14:02] herman Bergson: Determinism is a big subject Peter....
[14:02] ρєтєя (peter820.little) nods
[14:02] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Just curious. :- )
[14:02] herman Bergson: But because our premise is a materialistic one we have to deal with it
[14:03] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Anyway, Take care, Thanks! :D
[14:03] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Look forward to being able to attend more :)
[14:04] herman Bergson: You are welcome Peter
[14:05] Cain Levasseur: Well thanks for everything professor, see you next tuesday :)
[14:05] herman Bergson: Ok Cain :-)