306: The Brain and Emotion

Emotions are not invented by us. They are not the product of the romantic or poetic soul nor are they the result of beautiful symphonies, which we listen to.

Emotions are biological systems, just like blood pressure or reflexes or the working of enzymes. They are not, as often is assumed, jammers or annoying obstacles that frustrate the ratio.

They are survival machines and we are going to dig into their evolutionary meaning, their material foundation - so, the brain and some molecules -

and we'll focus on their importance for human society and human cooperation.

Let's agree on one point of view: we are weird creatures. Humans are very intelligent and yet so dumb. First of all because we seriously overestimate intelligence with respect to its importance in our daily life.

Secondly because we make so little use of it and if we do, we often do it in the wrong way. Never heard that complaint: "If you know it all so well, why don't you behave accordingly!!!"

We are the only species that applies a scientific name to ourselves: homo sapiens. And in that respect we are not really modest.

The Kit fox got his scientific name Vulpes Macrotis ('macrotis' means 'big ear') due to its big ears. So those big ears are THE characteristic, which make him different from other foxes.

And here we come: homo sapiens, which is Latin for "wise man". Ok, biologically there is nothing wrong with that name. We are the only species, which makes the best of the use of intelligence, rational thinking.

But here is a danger: the danger of generalization. The special feature "reason" is generalized in such a way, that it is regarded as the only mechanism that really controls all our doings

It is a mistake, but it is a generally accepted view through history: the human being controls himself by use of his ratio, his actions are based on reasonable considerations, and his behavior is based on knowledge, analysis and synthesis.

A lot of philosophers have regarded this as quintessential of being human. With respect to historical influence Descartes (1596 - 1650) is probably one of the most important proponents of this view.

His "Cogito, ergo sum" [I think thus I am] deduces the EGO, the Self exclusively from thinking, from the Ratio, where this thinking self even became an immaterial substance alongside of the material world.

However, this view does grave injustice to us as human beings. An impoverished vision, which reduces us to calculating computers.

It is far from true that our behavior is guided by our reason. Evolutionary the development of this reason came last.

Before that we already possessed a beautiful collection of mechanisms, which helped us survive and helped us to become social beings.

And these mechanisms are exactly those features, which are regarded as jammers and obstacles for what many philosophers held the highest: the ratio.

In an other lecture I already mentioned Plato (427 - 347 BC) who describes in the Phaedrus the soul as a chariot, pulled by two horses:

a splendid white horse (willpower and perseverance ) and a lumpish dark one (emotions). The charioteer (the ratio) had to spend almost all his energy on keeping that dark one in line with the white horse.

In other words, the Greek were convinced that when emotions take over the chariot will crash. And not only the old Greek thought so.

Even today a lot of people think,that when emotions take control things will run out of control.

Let me finish with one observation confirmed by research. If you are negotiating with others, the best way to convince them is not to come up again with a new set of reasonable arguments, but by showing your emotions.

[Main source: De Brein machine, Mark Nelissen (2008)]

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:20] BALDUR Joubert: where did you get the idea that "emotions are survival MACHINES" ISN'T RATHER ratio which act like a machine..input output
[13:21] Mick Nerido: Which emotions ?
[13:21] herman Bergson: That I will explain in the next lectures Baldur :-)
[13:22] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. i'm always a step ahead it seems.. but i'll be patient:)
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:22] herman Bergson: The emotions I am thinking of are basic ones like : fear, joy, grief, anger, wondering, disgust, shame, guild and pride
[13:22] herman Bergson: I'll discuss them all in the coming lectures and their meaning form an evolutionary perspective
[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: they all come independent of ratio..and ratio is used to give an explanation afterwards
[13:23] Mick Nerido: That means emotions are more powerful than reason
[13:23] herman Bergson: To some extend you are quite right Baldur....
[13:24] herman Bergson: That is an observation of neurosciences indeed
[13:24] herman Bergson: You could say that Mick, yes
[13:25] herman Bergson: I hope that will become clear in the next lectures
[13:25] oola Neruda: in ways i feel there is as much truth to be found in emotions as in the rational mind... and the german expressionists and abstract expressionists are only a few of the many examples in art... in music it is probably inescapable
[13:26] Mick Nerido: Like in follow your instincts?
[13:26] herman Bergson: What is important to keep in mind for the future is that we gonna discuss the BIOLOGY of the emotions I mentioned...
[13:27] herman Bergson: We dont call it instincts Mick, humans call it intuition ^_^
[13:27] Mick Nerido: lol
[13:27] herman Bergson: But in fact it is the same thing, yes
[13:27] herman Bergson: As I explained in the last lecture...
[13:27] oola Neruda: i believe nietzche leaned toward favoring the emotions over the rational]
[13:28] herman Bergson: the brain is a huge machine operating beyond our control to some extend...
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: most of our brain operates without us controling..breathing heartbeat..digestion ..mimics..
[13:29] herman Bergson: that is only the top of the iceberg Baldur ^_^
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. tight
[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: right
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:30] Mick Nerido: The emotions are like automatic pilot
[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: so what could be interesting is to understand the interactions of emotions and reason in our brain
[13:30] herman Bergson: There you have a good point Mick, because that is how they operate indeed.
[13:31] herman Bergson: They are prior to reason..
[13:31] herman Bergson: When you see a spider you don't start analyzing the situation like..
[13:31] herman Bergson: is is a dangerous spider or not...is it fast or slow..
[13:31] herman Bergson: you just run :-)
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): /
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): run?
[13:32] herman Bergson: and the basic emotion that is is control is fear...
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: lol..unless spiders are your field of study:)
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Baldur...
[13:32] herman Bergson: saw a guy on TV in a talk show...specialist on spiders...
[13:32] Zinzi Serevi: or when you want to be a brave mother
[13:32] Mick Nerido: The rational mind can overcome emotions like fear of fire as in a fireman
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: question is why is some people so terrified of mice that they jump up on a chair and screams
[13:32] Kyra Neutron: strange humans...cats don't run when they see a spider, they just eat it..
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: heheh
[13:33] herman Bergson: had some examples with him...big ones...
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: mice are not dangerous
[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: same with mice kyra:)
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: I think they are cute
[13:33] herman Bergson: conclusion...creepy fellow
[13:33] Kyra Neutron: and with reptiles baldur :)
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: as long they don't crawl from the stinky sewers
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: eeew
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well Kyra ...that is half true I would say....
[13:33] BALDUR Joubert: many keep reptiles in their homes....
[13:34] herman Bergson: here in Europe there are no dangerous spiders...
[13:34] Kyra Neutron: smart thing to do, keep them safe ;)
[13:34] herman Bergson: but I am sure there are situations where the larger animal runs when it sees a certain spider
[13:34] Kyra Neutron: actually what was my point was that; your primitive brain tells you to "run"
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hm some spiders esp exotic ones like black widow are deadly dangerous things
[13:35] herman Bergson: True Kyra
[13:35] herman Bergson: We have inherited this from our ancestors through evolution
[13:35] Kyra Neutron: looks at baldur and thinks of his reptile...
[13:35] BALDUR Joubert: don't agree kyra..our so called cultural brains tell us to run cause we lost contact with nature
[13:36] herman Bergson: no Baldur I dont agree.....
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: why
[13:36] herman Bergson: Here you put the ratio on top of everything again..
[13:36] Mick Nerido: Most people don't keep spiders as pets
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: no.. i put the emotions on top..
[13:37] BALDUR Joubert: look at egyptian deities..
[13:37] oola Neruda: i agree with Baldur... that we have lost touch with nature... and we fear what we do not know
[13:37] herman Bergson: those are two different things oola...
[13:37] herman Bergson: every organism fears what it doesn't know....response is FEAR....
[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: our relation to nature is basically emotional..
[13:38] herman Bergson: I don't know what Nature means...
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: whats around us in general
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: the environment
[13:38] BALDUR Joubert: smile.. all we can see and hear around us which is not human..
[13:38] herman Bergson: we ARE part of nature...living organisms...not apart of nature
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Nature is the natural world, mother earth
[13:39] Kyra Neutron: and we lost the contact with the mother nature...we call for your pagans back to work..heal our kind..open our eyes..
[13:39] BALDUR Joubert: being part does not mean we experience our surrounding as different from us
[13:39] herman Bergson: so it is us included
[13:39] Kyra Neutron yawns
[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): what else could we fear but the unknown or the unwelcome potential outcome?
[13:40] Kyra Neutron: it was quite interesting for a first time and i apoligize for my bad behaviour from all
[13:40] BALDUR Joubert: why pagans kyea
[13:40] Kyra Neutron: hope to see you again.
[13:40] herman Bergson: you're always welcome Kyra
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cu Kyra
[13:40] herman Bergson: But I guess it is your bedtime
[13:40] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye Kira
[13:40] Kyra Neutron: ty herman and others , haha yes :)
[13:41] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[13:41] Zinzi Serevi: bye Kyra
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: cu kyra
[13:41] Anja Tigerfish: Namaarie
[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: she doesn'tl ike reptiles
[13:41] Anja Tigerfish: oooooo
[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: grin.. may be cause she was sitting next to me:)
[13:42] herman Bergson: aww...poor Baldur...you're still human…don't worry
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hhee
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: lol..i know you have a picture of me where i don't look so human
[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): you may have a point Baldur
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...I guess that I have layed out our road for the next lectures....
[13:43] herman Bergson: We'll study the evolutionary and biological basis of emotions.
[13:43] Zinzi Serevi: bye bye all and thanks Herman
[13:43] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: bye Zinzi
[13:44] Mick Nerido: An emotional thank you!
[13:44] Anja Tigerfish: Namaarie
[13:44] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll show you the difference between the concepts of emotins and feelings
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah ok
[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you for the nice discussion again....
[13:44] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): bye to everyone :-) see you
[13:44] herman Bergson: class dismissed ^_^
[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you Herman
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: Bye all - thankyou herman cu
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: interesting topic Herman
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman & Class :-))
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye all!
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again ㋡
[13:45] BALDUR Joubert: welldone hermaN..
[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I must run.....goodbye all
[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..it's very interesting
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•
[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you Baldur
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu Ari
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and all othersw
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: Tschüss machs gut bis zum nächsten Mal
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: bye
[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): tschuess Anja
[13:45] herman Bergson: Bye Anja
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: *-*rOfl*-*
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: *-*r0fl*-*
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: bye
[13:45] Anja Tigerfish: *LOLO*
[13:46] Anja Tigerfish: ㋡ babble babble babble babble ㋡
[13:46] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bye all:) have a good night
[13:47] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)
[13:48] herman Bergson: Hey Druth....didnt see you..sorry
[13:48] BALDUR Joubert: neither did i ..hi druth:)

304: The Brain and Free Will

It is often said that man has a "free will" because we have choices. This is not true. Every organism is constantly making choices. Point is, are these choices free?

A definition of free will could be: the possibility to decide to do or not to do something without internal or external constraints, which determine this choice.

Not a new idea. For Thomas Hobbes (1588 – 1679) liberty is simply the “absence of all the impediments to action that are not contained in the nature and intrinsical quality of the agent.”

According to Hobbes all voluntary human action, he thought, is caused by the alternate operation of the general motives of desire and aversion, which he took to be similar to, and, indeed, varieties of, physical forces.

The proximate or immediate cause of a voluntary motion is an act of the will, but an act of the will is never free in the sense of being uncaused. It is caused by some kind of desire or aversion.

Spinoza (1632 -1677) takes it one step further and says, that free will does not exist. He illustrates this in his Ethica with some examples:

"Does a baby decide in freedom that it will drink? Does an angry man decide in freedom that he wants revenge? Does the coward decide in freedom that he will run away?"

Our present knowledge of neurobiology confirms what Spinoza already said: complete free will does not exist. Many hereditary factors and environmental influences affect the development of the brain.

Our gender identity, sexual preferences, native language, our genetic background…..we can make this list longer, but the items show how we are loaded with internal constraints.

We don't approve or disapprove things because we have thought it over, but because we can't do otherwise. Ethics is the consequence of our old evolutionary instincts, which are focused to do what does no harm the group.

We decide many things in a split second or based on a hunch or intuition. We "choose" a partner by falling in love at first sight.

Neuroscience shows us that an enormous amount of information processing takes place in our brain of which we are not aware.

When you show pictures of naked men and women to one eye of a heterosexual man for only a split second, so that he can not really see what is shown, the eye yet turns to the naked women pictures and turns away from the naked men pictures.

Emotions play an important role too as do cultural and social background in all this subconscious information processing.

In such a brain is little room for a conscious free will at all. This has serious consequences, for, when we hold someone responsible for his actions, we assume the existence of a free will.

Daniel M. Wegner is an American social psychologist. He is a professor of psychology at Harvard University. His book, The Illusion of Conscious Will, tackles the long-debated notion of free will through the scope of experimental psychology.

In stead of free will he talks about an unconscious will, but we need the illusion of the free will to label our actions as "this is mine and this I am".

Experiment: Touch the dot that will flash for a second on a screen . When the dot flashed, within 0.1 seconds the stimulus was on its way from the visual cortex to the motoric cortex.

When the processing of the visual cortex was interrupted by a magnetic pulse the test person yet touched the screen, but wasn't aware of the flashing dot.

So between the process in the visual cortex and the motoric cortex there was no conscious process of deciding to touch the screen or not.

There may be some room for a free will in the situation that we ponder about a decision to make and take into account all possible consequences, but otherwise it seems to be an interesting illusion.



The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:20] herman Bergson: You are free to make a remark or ask a question ㋡
[13:20] herman Bergson: The floor is yours
[13:20] Cain Levasseur: This opens serious questions on Penal Law
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes Cain.....
[13:21] herman Bergson: The more neurobiological insight we obtain the more serious this debate will become
[13:21] Mick Nerido: Desire or pleasure vs aversion, we can choose to go against this but it is not "natural"
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well the basic program of us as organism is to avoid pain and to seek pleasure...
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: yes true
[13:22] herman Bergson: A biological fact of all sentient beings...
[13:22] Mick Nerido: Yes but we can choose pain
[13:23] herman Bergson: WHo seeks pain experiences pleasure , I would say
[13:23] Mick Nerido: say like study all night rather than party all night
[13:23] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): of course all this neurobiological manipulation assumes that the brain is as singular entity and that the decision as to which path to follow is electical
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle.....
[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thus eliminating free will
[13:24] herman Bergson: Tho some people have two brains....
[13:24] herman Bergson: two wills even.....
[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): freewill requires the belief in duality
[13:24] herman Bergson: it is called the alien-hand syndrome.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: when communication between the two hemispheres of the brian is disrupted...
[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think our primal instinctual brain allows for no free will
[13:25] herman Bergson: such patients have two hands...one who put on the pants and the other hand that takes of the pants in the same time
[13:25] Mick Nerido: the higher brain also?
[13:25] Alaya Kumaki: there might be certain thing that the brain is already made to do from birth, as the sucking reflect of the baby, but i wonder if there is much more than that, just that it will manifest much later during the development
[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it is our evolved cerebral brain that determines the path
[13:26] herman Bergson: Our brain is loaded with activity Alaya......
[13:26] herman Bergson: much of which we are not aware of...
[13:27] herman Bergson: Consciousness is just a babble box someone once said....
[13:27] Alaya Kumaki: i prefer scrabble
[13:27] herman Bergson: always running after the facts with its stories
[13:27] Clerisse Beeswing: Where does our subconscience lay?
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Were the stoics feeling pleasure?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Well Clerisse...the subconscious in a Freudian sense doesnt exist...
[13:28] Clerisse Beeswing: wow..never knew that
[13:29] herman Bergson: But the brain does process lots of information that influences our behavior without us being aware of it
[13:29] Alaya Kumaki: the stoic is a school of thought not a species mick
[13:29] herman Bergson: In a way Freud was right....
[13:30] herman Bergson: That experiences at young age are stored and influential at alter age
[13:30] Clerisse Beeswing: Is that why a stroke hits a brain no matter which side it does damage?
[13:30] Now playing: Antonio Vivaldi - Rachel Podger, Arte Dei Suonatori - Vioolconcert in e op.4/2 RV279 (Channel Cl. CCS 19598)
[13:30] herman Bergson: What do you mean Clerisse?
[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: They say when you have a stroke it is either the right side or left side that is effected
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well...canbe any place in the brain.....
[13:31] Mick Nerido: I stiil think the conscious part of the mind can freely choose but it is not completely free
[13:32] herman Bergson: But I guess it is 50 -50 in which hemisphere it happens
[13:32] Clerisse Beeswing: Right..why can't they just say hey your brain waves were interrupted by a stroke or something
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....we are somewhere in between that observation....
[13:33] herman Bergson: But for instance the law is still based on total responsebility for our actions.....
[13:33] herman Bergson: There are amendements….for instance to take into account the mental condition of a criminal....
[13:34] herman Bergson: But that is also only a recent addition to our sense of justice
[13:35] herman Bergson: Neuroscience will reveal more and more about the functioning of the brain and thence our reasons of behaving
[13:35] Mick Nerido: Free will could be something we are evolving toward not here quite yet
[13:35] herman Bergson: I doubt that....
[13:35] Mick Nerido: Why?
[13:35] herman Bergson: The brain has its history..IS wired in a certain way.....
[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: free will might be part of the brain and heart
[13:36] herman Bergson: You cant choose your talents for instance...you have them or not
[13:36] herman Bergson: You cant choose not to have ADHD....
[13:36] herman Bergson: You have it because your mother smoked a lot during her pregnancy….this affects the development of the brain of the fetus
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: aa same with what kind of interests u have for example
[13:36] Mick Nerido: We could build a free will computer like brain...
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....we are a preprogrammed machine ㋡
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ex I ve always been technical interested and so since a little kid
[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): we can be shackled by both heredity and nurturing but educated enlightment can neutralize the nurtured deficiencies thru informed rationality
[13:37] herman Bergson: And we try to figure our what it means to be conscious and in what sense we are free
[13:38] herman Bergson: rationality.....an overestimated feature of the organism, named human being :-)
[13:38] Mick Nerido: Freedom requires conscious choice
[13:39] Alaya Kumaki: yes herman, the youth experience is very influent, because learned 2thing at a very early age, and now i do it witout thinking about it, as walking on ice slipping and taking over to the stand position, without falling,,(i skate at age 4) and trowing a paper ball in a basket(i did basket ball at 7),,not thinking anymore while trowing anything in a hole, it just goes by itself
[13:39] herman Bergson: As I said.....
[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): rationality being a selfish motivation
[13:40] Alaya Kumaki: sorry for the sentence, it was longer than i thoughts, i couldn't see it fully in the chat box
[13:40] herman Bergson: Maybe...in the situation that we think about the consequences of our actions....that we THEN have a situation of free choice
[13:41] herman Bergson: you are excused Alaya ^_^
[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes and which consequences benefit us the most
[13:42] Mick Nerido: we seem to have a lot less freedom than I thought...
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....it seems to be the case indeed....
[13:42] Alaya Kumaki: so many thing get print into the brain, and we don't chooses them.. anymore
[13:42] herman Bergson: Just think about how many things a day you do on autopilot...
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hmm well when I think about it, its often 1 my personality and 2 external influence that have some influence at löeast i think in how i make my decisions and so¨
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: can be very possible
[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): one must teach their children to think critically from a early age
[13:43] herman Bergson: YEs Alaya....and all those imprints make how your brain processes the information....
[13:43] Mick Nerido: I freely choose to be here today:)
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:44] Alaya Kumaki: aristotle i do believe that many thing are god to do very early, but respecting the age level
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: Im here cause IU like to be here, ints interesting
[13:44] Alaya Kumaki: good*
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: your want for new knowledge made ya Mick )
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and also nice people here
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Mick... there is some free will in our actions...certainly....
[13:45] herman Bergson: But where the unconscious will ends and the 'free' will begins...don't know :-)
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and like to learn new stuff
[13:45] Mick Nerido: I treasure my freedom because it is so rare
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and get surprised now and then ㋡
[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): those things that necessitate our survival are the only things that denies us total freedom
[13:46] Mick Nerido: Did Beethoven freely choose to write music?
[13:47] herman Bergson: maybe not....
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: guess he did cause music was his main interest genetically influenced
[13:47] herman Bergson: It just happened because his brain was for some reason wired in that way..
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: or something like that
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: like my interests and everyones
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: determines what u want to be when u grow up
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes..like spirituality is in your genes....
[13:48] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or was he just smart of enough to recognize the wiring?
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aa must be same thing I guess sort of
[13:48] herman Bergson: some people have no interest n spirituality...and this can be seen in their genes....
[13:48] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): amen
[13:48] herman Bergson: itis genetiically determined
[13:49] herman Bergson: OK...gave you another nut to crack ^_^
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)
[13:49] herman Bergson: SO thank you for the nice debate...
[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): crunching now
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: nice again Herman ㋡
[13:50] CONNIE Eichel: great class :)
[13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you Professor
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: Thank you professor
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you CONNIE
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: this get MORE AND MORE interesting every time
[13:50] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:50] Qwark Allen: very intersting as usual! thank you
[13:50] Peli (peli.dieterle): ! ! ! Applause ! ! !
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Very intersting and stimulating
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe¨
[13:50] CONNIE Eichel: yw :)
[1[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: thank you professr thanks all . have a great evening :)
[13:51] herman Bergson: my pleasure Beertje
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cu soon
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:51] Cain Levasseur: Thank you very much professor
[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight
[13:52] Westie Easterman: Thank you Mister
[13:52] Alaya Kumaki: in the gene? spirituality?
[13:52] herman Bergson: yes....
[13:52] Alaya Kumaki: did they found the gene?
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Alaya....
[13:52] Alaya Kumaki: whoa!!!
[13:52] CONNIE Eichel: bye all, have a good night :)
[13:53] herman Bergson: I have to look it up who did that butit is a fact
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu soon
[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: i wish i can see what it look like
[13:53] herman Bergson: Bye CONNIE
[13:53] CONNIE Eichel: :)
[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: its was very amazingly interesting
[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: cause of my genes)
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well....read it like this....
[13:53] Alaya Kumaki: P
[13:54] herman Bergson: the inclination to adopt spiritual views about life is stronger is some persons than in others
[13:55] herman Bergson: and this willingness to uphold spiritual views is among other things also genetically determined
[13:55] Alaya Kumaki: i can make a jokes, about that, like, a words games
[13:55] Alaya Kumaki: yu know man like woman in pants others dont, depend of the jeans!!
[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): good bye all, thanks again Herman
[13:56] herman Bergson: Bye Aristotle
[13:56] Alaya Kumaki: gosh its getting dark here, i got to low my screen light, laptop screen light flashes my eyes...cant type anymore
[13:57] Alaya Kumaki: see yu nexr time
[13:57] Alaya Kumaki: thanks herman)
[13:57] herman Bergson: ok Alaya
[13:57] herman Bergson: Hi Melusina ㋡
[13:57] Alaya Kumaki: byby
[13:57] Melusina (melu.klaxon): hi Mr :)
[13:58] Cain Levasseur: it was very interesting professor
[13:58] herman Bergson: thank you Cain...
[13:59] Cain Levasseur: in my law class we discuss the thing about free will
[13:59] Cain Levasseur: but our professors try to avoid the subject
[13:59] herman Bergson: I can imagine.....
[14:00] herman Bergson: Philosophically there is no clear answer to the issue....
[14:00] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Sorry, i wasnt here for the whole debate - Was anything mentioned about Determinsm? THat is quite an interesting theory which goes quite nicley in the debate of freewill.
[14:00] herman Bergson: The neuroscience puts it again in a new perspective....
[14:00] Cain Levasseur: yes, how we punish a person on one hand, and how we keep a secure society
[14:01] Cain Levasseur: how we punish a non-free person i mean
[14:01] herman Bergson: yes.....and neurologically it is already proven that we just LOVE to punish...:-)
[14:01] Cain Levasseur: thats too bad
[14:02] herman Bergson: Determinism is a big subject Peter....
[14:02] ρєтєя (peter820.little) nods
[14:02] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Just curious. :- )
[14:02] herman Bergson: But because our premise is a materialistic one we have to deal with it
[14:03] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Anyway, Take care, Thanks! :D
[14:03] ρєтєя (peter820.little): Look forward to being able to attend more :)
[14:04] herman Bergson: You are welcome Peter
[14:05] Cain Levasseur: Well thanks for everything professor, see you next tuesday :)
[14:05] herman Bergson: Ok Cain :-)

302: The Brain and the Lie

Where there are people, there are lies. And the most interesting thing is, that lying is the result of the evolution of our brain. And we are the best liars there are on earth.

Research on primates has shown that it especially concerns -from an evolutionary point of view- the youngest parts of our brain. The six layers of the neo-cortex which are almost 80% of our brain.

Don't worry ..we aren't the only sinners in this world. Apes are good at it too. That is, the larger the neo-cortext the more cunning the individual becomes.

We lie all day. Big lies, small lies…whatever, we lie and sometimes tell the truth. But if you did not lie, you soon would be out of a job, divorced, hated by your friends.

So it is the grease in our social life. If it weren't, we wouldn't be here as the result of evolution. It seems to be a survival tool.

However, there is hardly a religion that approves of lying. But it is sooooooo human. In Genesis Adam and Eve lied to God.

Their son Cain wasn't better. "Where is your brother, Cain"….."hhhmmmmm…I don't know". But God had seen it all and we all know the consequences.

And that trick, to see it all, to see any lie, that certainly is one of our dreams. And maybe a brain scan can do the trick": "You can lie, but your brain can not!".

Through the centuries every culture had its tricks to expose the liar and in our time the polygraph was the invention. Many European countries reject the machine as unreliable, but in the US it still is popular.

However the National Academy of Sciences concluded that "[polygraph testing's] accuracy in distinguishing actual or potential security violators from innocent test takers is insufficient to justify reliance on its use in employee security screening in federal agencies?"

Just have a look at the Antipolygraph.org site and you are in the midst of the ongoing debate about unmasking the liar and the bad job the polygraph does in this.

But that machine is looking inward from the outside. The neuroscientist looks directly into your skull and observes the actions of your brain. Impossible to hide anything.

The psychiatrist Daniel Langleben noticed that children with a hyperactivity problem had problems with lying. That is, they could lie perfectly, but had difficulty NOT to tell the truth.
From
Neuroscientist Uses Brain Scan to See Lies Form
by Dina Temple-Raston, October 30, 2007. Note the date and realize how new this all is in neuroscience!

"He thought this might have to do with their lack of impulse control, and from that, he thought it was possible that lying was essentially harder than telling the truth.
One had to have good impulse control to lie, otherwise the truth came out first. That led to developing a way to track a lie as it is formed in the brain using a functional magnetic resonance imaging machine, or fMRI.
"The key point is that you need to exercise a system that is in charge of regulating and controlling your behavior when you lie more than when you just say the truth," Langleben said.
"Three areas of the brain generally become more active during deception: the anterior cingulated cortex, the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex and the parietal cortex."
The anterior cingulated cortex is thought to be in charge of monitoring errors. The dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex is thought to control behavior. The parietal cortex processes sensory input.
As he sees it, lies aren't created out of thin air. Instead, he believes your brain has to think of the truth and then make a decision, in a sense, to do the opposite.

If you are instructed to say "the sky is green," Langleben believes your brain first thinks about the sky's true color, blue, before going with the falsehood. That process shows up on the fMRI scan."

To conclude this introductory lie. Have you ever seen a MRI scanner? It is interesting, but also clear that the technology is still pretty rough. But beware when they have developed one not larger than a helmet.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15744871
Neuroscientist Uses Brain Scan to See Lies Form
by Dina Temple-Raston, October 30, 2007

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/noliemri/
MRI Lie Detection


The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: thank you....
[13:23] herman Bergson: This last statement Jerome has a philosophical catch :-)
[13:23] Jerome Ronzales: ok
[13:23] herman Bergson: so feel free ..the floor is yours
[13:24] druth Vlodovic: don't you engage in a certain amount of processing before telling the truth?
[13:24] Aya Beaumont: The problem is that fMRI used to be all that. More recent studies have shown that maybe the technique isn't that useful.
[13:24] Jerome Ronzales: ill communicate it to the canary in the kitchen
[13:24] Mick Nerido: Lying seems to be a social lubricant...
[13:24] Aya Beaumont: Why? Because the areas shown are truly massive.
[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would think one weighs the cost/benefit of truth or lie before speaking either
[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: rightly said so aya
[13:25] Jerome Ronzales: :\
[13:25] herman Bergson: Well Druth..it seems that the brain needs little action to generate the truth
[13:25] Aya Beaumont: It's all well and good to say "it's in the anterior cingulate cortex"
[13:26] Aya Beaumont: Understand that if each neuron would be an inch across, that would be the size of a continent.
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Aya...just look at the machine in the picture behind me...
[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: may be we should think about lies are a survival phenomena?
[13:26] druth Vlodovic: but a nervous or polite person might spend time rewriting the truth to say it in a way acceptable to the listener
[13:26] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would also tend to think that our survival instinct has to be involved in the mix
[13:26] herman Bergson: So clumsy......but we manage :-)
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: maybe
[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: lying--you look for an advantage..
[13:27] Aya Beaumont: Second problem: The areas they claim have a specific function actually have anything but. It is a simplification that stuck.
[13:27] herman Bergson: Lies ARE a survival phenomenon Baldur..
[13:27] Mick Nerido: A plausable lie is better than an implausible truth
[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: right..but how and why....
[13:27] Aya Beaumont: Third problem: These areas vary greatly between people.
[13:27] Jerome Ronzales: not kidding, how do you explain to a canary that is water and food are over, neuroscience to a canary is genius. he will never noticest until he falls down in the dirty old water, right?
[13:27] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and sometimes lying made be the less hostile way of saying 'it is none of your busy'
[13:27] Jerome Ronzales: i hope its readable..
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Lieing is creativity at work
[13:28] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): surely Mick, it is artful
[13:28] herman Bergson: Well... the lie as a feuture of our behavior...we need it ...that is clear...
[13:29] Aya Beaumont: But no matter all that: There are still ways of cheating on it.
[13:29] herman Bergson: Baldur asks...WHY...good question....
[13:29] Aya Beaumont: First of all, make sure you don't lie. If you can convince yourself that something is true, you're good.
[13:29] Jerome Ronzales: common the canary brain is so small he will live happily ever after
[13:29] herman Bergson: Fact is ..that someone who only tells the truth gets kicked out...
[13:29] Mick Nerido: The truth is not always the answer we want
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes..it is a complex issue..
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that seems to be the case indeed
[13:30] Jerome Ronzales: canary*
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: complex like hell
[13:30] herman Bergson: you can philosophize about it for hours...until the canary is dead
[13:30] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): How naked we would be if all our truths were known
[13:30] Jerome Ronzales: not quite.
[13:30] Mick Nerido: Lies could be wishful thinking
[13:31] Aya Beaumont: As long as those in power were also exposed this way, that would be okay.
[13:31] herman Bergson: More important for us is that neuroscience invaded the skull..gets inside....
[13:31] druth Vlodovic: has there been a comparison of fMRI results between lying and other creative endevours?
[13:31] herman Bergson: This means a whole new definition of privacy for instance
[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: well. i think lying..for humans .. is a behaviour in despite of a opposite conviction..
[13:32] Jerome Ronzales: the truth is that the cage that cells the bird is also the only thing he compreends, but like a harmless canary that doesn't happen to humans, and all humans have their defaults, unfortunally
[13:32] Aya Beaumont: "Mister Obama, now that you run for your second term... these promises you have made, will you actually push them through?"
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Druth....definitely...
[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Still I wonder where the decision is made to tell the truth of the lie
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: so where is his advantage.for survival..or..in society..
[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or*
[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: smile which for me is the same..
[13:32] herman Bergson: yeah good observation Aristotle...
[13:32] druth Vlodovic: what were the similarities?
[13:32] Jerome Ronzales: and its all for now..
[13:33] Aya Beaumont: Oh... and there is a good way not to have to fear this so much...
[13:33] Jerome Ronzales: lag
[13:33] herman Bergson: JUST HOLD ON!!!!
[13:33] herman Bergson: First Druth....
[13:33] Jerome Ronzales: i quit
[13:34] Jerome Ronzales goes back to passive mode.
[13:34] herman Bergson: Tests have shown the same MRI pictures of ordinary liars and 'professional' liers...same activity areas
[13:35] herman Bergson: What si more fascinating is the remark of Aristotle...
[13:35] herman Bergson: Philosophically almost the homunculus idea...
[13:35] herman Bergson: there is a little man in your head pushing the buttons
[13:35] Aya Beaumont: The entire problem can be solved by implanting something metallic into your skull.
[13:35] Mick Nerido: It would be fun to see what a no lie world would be like
[13:36] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes , the little man
[13:36] herman Bergson: hmmm....just think about that Mick....
[13:36] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or woman :)
[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: grin..can't you be a big liar ari?
[13:36] Mick Nerido: There was a movie...
[13:36] herman Bergson: I would meet you....and I would think..geez what ugly outfit...
[13:37] herman Bergson: but I need to work with you....
[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL
[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, and your cross eyes
[13:37] Mick Nerido: Are there good and bad lies?
[13:37] herman Bergson: So let me be honest Mick..you look ugly...come one we need to work on this job..:_)
[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe that dont sound to good indeed
[13:38] Mick Nerido: Ugly truth
[13:38] Aya Beaumont: With a metallic brain implant, you will die if they use fMRI on you
[13:38] Aya Beaumont: Which should simplify the situation.
[13:38] herman Bergson: Very nice Aya..I love that
[13:38] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and our personal security would be fragile
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes the superconductying magnets will rip them through the head slashing the head to pieces
[13:38] druth Vlodovic: when I disagree with someone I try to start out by agreeing with them, I've never considered it lying...
[13:38] druth Vlodovic: though it would be interesting to see if my brain does
[13:39] Aya Beaumont: Bejita: No, what happens is they amass heat.
[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I better get one of those implants
[13:39] herman Bergson: Cool Druth..yes!
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: cause i ve seen what those magnets can do
[13:39] : llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[13:40] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or I will just tell them I have one :)
[13:40] Aya Beaumont: yeah, it's no joke.
[13:40] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I will lie about it
[13:40] Aya Beaumont: You can make a CT scan first to check, Aristotle.
[13:40] herman Bergson: ok...this was just the introduction to lying...
[13:40] Mick Nerido: Its better that we can't read each others minds
[13:41] herman Bergson: next time well discuss the philosophical and ethical implications...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: interesting subject
[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :) if they find out the truth I will be in trouble
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and so muct TRUE fact in it as well
[13:41] Mick Nerido: LOL
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:41] herman Bergson: So...thank you for your participation...
[13:41] herman Bergson: This is no lie...scan my brain..:-)
[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you Professor, if you are being truthful
[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: well..as our av's are lying about how we look..
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:42] herman Bergson: class dismmissed :-)
[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)
[13:42] Aya Beaumont: This statement is a lie.
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: nice again as usual this
[13:42] Aya Beaumont: Thank you, Herman.
[13:42] herman Bergson: The paradox Aya..nice one ^_^
[13:42] Florimell Farstrider: Lying? are you implying I'm not an actual musketeer? ;)
[13:42] Mick Nerido: Good class, thanks
[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): If I say I tell only lies, can you believe it?
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...for that is a paradox as old as the greeks
[13:43] Florimell Farstrider: of course not. I'd be a fool to believe such a notorious liar.
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: no cause then that statement would also be a lie
[13:43] Aya Beaumont: The question is if you can read things from memory instead.
[13:43] druth Vlodovic: thank you herman, it was interesting as always
[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): indeed, paraphrased by yours truly
[13:43] herman Bergson: the paradox is easy to solve....
[13:43] Aya Beaumont: But any way it works: there may well be people who can lie without being detected.
[13:44] herman Bergson: the statement is self referential...
[13:44] herman Bergson: that is the faulty trick
[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would think that psychopaths could. Aya
[13:44] herman Bergson: I dont know Aya...
[13:44] Aya Beaumont: If so, these people will be the ones reaching the top.
[13:44] Aya Beaumont: We are all better off if everyone can lie.
[13:45] herman Bergson: From a neurobiological point of view I would say NO
[13:45] herman Bergson: There is the problem of people believing their own leis...
[13:45] Aya Beaumont: Herman, you have no way of knowing, unless you can prove a negative?
[13:46] Aya Beaumont: They MAY exist. And thus, believing that they can not is extremely dangerous.
[13:46] Florimell Farstrider: I struggled so see what Nietzsche meant when he exclaimed 'Why truth? Why not untruth?'. I'm beginning to come around to his way of thinking. The act of lying is in many ways more remarkable than truth-telling, so why isn't lying held in higher regard?
[13:46] herman Bergson: I said ..my guess is No....but people believing their own lies...
[13:46] herman Bergson: No idea how thebrain would look like in a scan then..
[13:46] Aya Beaumont: As I said, the map is far from complete.
[13:47] herman Bergson: this is all so new,Aya....developments siince 2006...
[13:47] Aya Beaumont: We have only vague ideas as to what those areas do.
[13:47] Aya Beaumont: Indeed.
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes so true....
[13:47] Mick Nerido: some day we may evolve beyond lying
[13:47] herman Bergson: we are still scratching the surface
[13:47] druth Vlodovic: or evolve to the point we no longer need truth
[13:47] Aya Beaumont: Until we DO know, and that's at least decades away (like fusion), let's not make plans for a no-lie society.
[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: smile scatchin g the surface.that is philosophy:)
[13:48] herman Bergson: But evenin scratching the durface we are flabbergasted about what we discover
[13:48] Aya Beaumont: Absolutely.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all...
[13:49] herman Bergson: :-)
[13:49] Aya Beaumont: Thank you.

276: The Ghost in the Meat Machine 2

Maybe this is a good moment to check what we have achieved till now.

The first issue is that my starting point is a absolute materialism. This means that only matter matters ^_^
Of course we could start a serious debate on what "matter" is, but for the sake of our present discourse we could loosely define it as that what obeys the laws of nature, the laws of physics.

What I don't do now is to discuss the question whether or not absolute materialism is a tenable ontology. For now I just assume that it is and that there are good arguments for. But again a complete different discussion from what we are focused on now.

A second issue is that we regard the human being and thus his brain too as the result of tens of thousands of years of evolution. In this evolution of the brain, its development took its own course, which has resulted in the brain as it is now.

A third issue is that we therefore conclude that the brain is the mind. That means that the activity of the brain generates that what we call our mind.

A fourth issue is that we know that, as cognitive development psychology shows us, the mind goes through several cognitive stages. WIth regard of our present subject, the most interesting stage is around the age of 2 to 4, when animistic thinking emerges.

Animistic thinking, or animism, is the mental act to ascribe human traits like intentions, thoughts and feelings to non human things. We see that happen in all kinds of variations.

A fifth issue is that we have neurobiological proof that the brain is already wired to interact with and interpret the world around from the moment that we are born. Thus patting Immanual Kant on the shoulder.

A six issue is that we have learnt, that our interaction with reality is driven by three belief-systems: science, religion and supernatural beliefs.

Science I define as knowledge claims that can be tested on true or false. Supernatural beliefs are characterized by the fact that they defy the laws of nature and often can not be tested on true or false.

If we hold something to be a supernatural belief and a test shows that it yet is true, then the supernatural belief shows to be a natural belief, that is, it is knowledge.

The seventh and last issue is that we experience the mind as something different from the body. The body is material and the mind is not, as Descartes thought.

"We treat the mind and the body as separate because that is what we experience. I am controlling my body, but I am more than just my body. We sense that we exist independently of our bodies.", says Bruce Hood.

Yet in brain research the Canadian brain surgeon Wilder Penfield pioneered operations on awake patients for treatment of epilepsy. I leave the details out, but by stimulating parts of the surface of the brian people experienced tastes, moving limbs, relived past experiences. Direct stimulation proved that mental life is a product of the physical brain.

Our brain gives us the illusion that we live in our body. When you cut your finger you feel pain in your finger, but in fact there is nothing in your finger….your brain tells you where to look for physical damage. The pain is in the brain.

When you take an aspirin because your back hurts, the chemicals of the aspirin go to your brain and block some neural transmitters. They never go to your back to ease the pain.

Children of 6 or 7 believe that you don't need a brain to have a mind. And I think a lot of adults still believe this too. The mind is a thing of its own with its own life.

This leads to the supersense belief that we will continue to exist after our death. It leads to the belief that the evil mind of the criminal is still there in the house where he killed so many young girls

I will leave it to that for the moment. Things get pretty complicated now. We'll leave these complications for the philosophical chapters which still have to come in this project and the next lecture.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: thank you :-)
[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any question or remark..plz feel free
[13:21] AristotleVon Doobie: Issue #6 would indicate that supernaturalness evaportes if it can be proven and moves to then scientific realm
[13:22] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: very good aristotle
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ah ok
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:22] herman Bergson: If we can prove that the mind has telekinetic power...it becomes a matter of scientific research to find out how it works
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: then its not supernatural anymore
[13:23] Alaya Kumaki: is telekinetic include telepathy?
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: then its fact
[13:23] Alarice Beaumont: yes.. no longer supernatural
[13:23] herman Bergson: There is research on such matters but nothing conclusive
[13:23] Gemma Cleanslate: lots of experiments going on about that yes
[13:23] AristotleVon Doobie: so then, was the supersense merely curiosity about life?
[13:23] herman Bergson: No Alarice...
[13:23] Alarice Beaumont: no?
[13:24] herman Bergson: It is our survival tool to make sense of what doesn't make sense to us..
[13:24] Alarice Beaumont: but if proven.. it became "normal"
[13:24] herman Bergson: sorry Alarice..should have said Yes .:-)
[13:24] AristotleVon Doobie: I believe that....to remove the fear of not knowing
[13:24] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle..
[13:24] herman Bergson: What happens when you die for instance...
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: or diminish it at least
[13:25] herman Bergson: a serious question for many of us
[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: yes... better not think about it Herman
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: all of us into some
[13:25] Alarice Beaumont: questin ..if one has a soul
[13:26] AristotleVon Doobie: and there are those who would offer scientific proof of its extistance....'seeing the light'
[13:26] herman Bergson: Well Alarice ..the answer is simple...when you die you are dead..that is all..nothing happens thereafter :-)
[13:26] herman Bergson: the brain has stopped creating the mind
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: of course the answer is simple if that is in fact the case
[13:27] Jozen Ocello: that's a scientific view, isn't it, Herman?
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: but we do not know
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Jozen, it is all we know about reality so far...
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: I would call it the use of the supersense to state it
[13:28] herman Bergson: To state what Aristotle?
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: this is how you feel Herman
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: about nothing after death
[13:28] Alarice Beaumont: well..people who died clinically speaking and then woke up... say different ,-)
[13:28] herman Bergson: No....I wouldn't say so...
[13:28] AristotleVon Doobie: but can you prove your claim?
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: true or false?
[13:29] herman Bergson: We know that the brain generates the mind...so when the brian stops the person is gone..dead...
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: makes sense, but where does the mind go?
[13:29] Alarice Beaumont: vanishes Ari.....
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: and are we the body, the brain or the mind?
[13:29] herman Bergson: nowhere...light a light bulb...light on ...light off...where did the light go???
[13:30] herman Bergson: question makes no sense
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, as a supposition
[13:30] herman Bergson: When you say..where did the mind go , you stick to cartesian dualism..
[13:31] Alarice Beaumont: we only occupy our body... it's the mantle we use during our lifetime to move in the world
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: no, I say that I do not know, and have not seen proof eitherway
[13:31] herman Bergson: As I said in the former lecture..we are intuitively inclined to think in terms of dualism
[13:31] Alaya Kumaki: where, is only pointing, into the unknown
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: LOL of course I thence in at least three components of me
[13:31] AristotleVon Doobie: think
[13:32] herman Bergson: That is a paradox Alaya....how can we know the unknown, for if we do the unknown is known :-)
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: yes!
[13:32] Alaya Kumaki: yes its a riddle
[13:32] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:32] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: form supernatural to scientific in a flash
[13:33] herman Bergson: So...what method or means do we have to search for an afterlife...
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: not much
[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: none
[13:33] AristotleVon Doobie: conjecture is all
[13:33] herman Bergson: No and even more....
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: except to those with faith
[13:33] Alarice Beaumont: not really much
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: who are sure
[13:33] herman Bergson: this idea of an afterlife is based on our supersense beliefs
[13:34] Alarice Beaumont: only speculations
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: indeed
[13:34] herman Bergson: yes indeed
[13:34] Alarice Beaumont: yes i agre
[13:34] herman Bergson: What is more interesting is why people love the idea of an afterlife...
[13:34] herman Bergson: I just today discussed it with my wife...:-)
[13:34] Qwark Allen: afterlife(S)
[13:35] Qwark Allen: plural
[13:35] herman Bergson: a human life is just a flash of light in eternity...
[13:35] hope63 Shepherd: HERMAN-- ITS NOT THAT THEY LOVE THAT IDEA
[13:35] Alarice Beaumont: perhaps it is in us that we want a piece of us to survive
[13:35] Alarice Beaumont: not just go away... the fear of just vanishing
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: The brain tho is required in order for the mind to manifest itself, the body to communicate with the world
[13:35] herman Bergson: and when you die you are condemned to exist for ever one way otr th eother in an afterlife...such an absurd idea!
[13:36] Qwark Allen: Lavoisier have a law, that says nothing is lost, everything just transformes
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: immortality LOL, maybe that is why Vampirism is so popular
[13:36] herman Bergson: Oh yes Alarice..the motivations are clear
[13:36] Alarice Beaumont: welll... works with the terrorists .... they think they get 7 virgins
[13:36] Qwark Allen: why should the mind energy get lost, and not transform?
[13:36] Gemma Cleanslate: 72
[13:36] Gemma Cleanslate: not seven
[13:36] Alarice Beaumont: in afterlife.. that's what they kill for
[13:36] herman Bergson: Did you ever read Nobody is immortal by Simone de Beauvoir...???
[13:36] Alarice Beaumont: looool
[13:37] Alarice Beaumont: yes... which they can never handle ^^
[13:37] Jozen Ocello: wow 72!
[13:37] Alarice Beaumont: they just don't get it loool
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: yes Qwark, why?
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: Why is the big question isn't it?
[13:37] Qwark Allen: that is my question
[13:37] Jozen Ocello: no, Herman, seems like an interesting book to get hold of though
[13:37] Qwark Allen: yep
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: someone just needs to find the answer
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:37] Alarice Beaumont: some people think the energy will be left in this world
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: some time maybe
[13:38] Qwark Allen: there is no evidence that that isn`t correct
[13:38] herman Bergson: Qwark...perfect idea...
[13:38] herman Bergson: But!
[13:38] herman Bergson: The energy of the brain is electricity...
[13:38] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:38] herman Bergson: so when the electricity stops...what is left then?
[13:38] Qwark Allen: and nothing get lost, so, must be transformed in something else
[13:39] herman Bergson: that is not a law of physics Qwark, but a supersense law..
[13:39] Qwark Allen: or we just didn`t understood well, what is electricity 100%
[13:39] Qwark Allen: like we don`t understand for example, gravity
[13:40] herman Bergson: ok...but where is the research that shows that electricity is more than the movements of electrons?
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: I am with you Herman, but there is the lack of the total understanding of the connection to the mind
[13:40] Qwark Allen: that is why we spent 6 billions euros on LHC
[13:40] herman Bergson: Oh sure..absolutely...
[13:40] Qwark Allen: to understand better nature
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark..we know still so little of all
[13:41] Qwark Allen: that is my point
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: the mind may work on gas instead of electricity
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: I wait for it to start now if they only get the access done on the injectors
[13:41] Gemma Cleanslate: oh good heavens
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: takes forever
[13:41] Qwark Allen: we can`t discard the idea, just cause doesn't fit in the science we have today
[13:41] herman Bergson: But we have to deal with the present situation and our present knowledge and thus deal with reality
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes
[13:41] Qwark Allen: the science we have today, it`s it self, obsolete
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: gas as in some ethereal method
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: its tricky for sure
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: that is true or we are back to just believing on faith
[13:42] Jozen Ocello: how best to deal with this reality then?
[13:42] Qwark Allen: from the beginning of 20th century
[13:42] herman Bergson: No Qwark, but ideas that can not be tested and yet impose a power and control on our existence are dangerous
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: yes
[13:42] Qwark Allen: test gravity
[13:42] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: I agree Herman
[13:42] Qwark Allen: we know that it is there
[13:42] herman Bergson: Oh they do...
[13:42] Qwark Allen: just not understand it
[13:43] Qwark Allen: no they don`t
[13:43] herman Bergson: no..neither do they understand the cosmos...
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: they become intangible tools to control
[13:43] Qwark Allen: if you understand it, you should apply your self to a nobel
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: they just discovered lately that the higher you are there is a miniscule difference in time
[13:43] herman Bergson: the big bang theory is nice but makes little sense as such
[13:43] Gemma Cleanslate: the higher age faster
[13:43] Qwark Allen: see, i`m not talking about big bang
[13:43] Qwark Allen: i`m a non believer in that theory
[13:44] herman Bergson: I know..but the microcosmos is the same thing..
[13:44] Qwark Allen: gravity is about macro cosmos
[13:44] Qwark Allen: eheh
[13:44] herman Bergson: therefore I said..no discussion on the question what matter is...:-)
[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: theories....are the really supersense if they can not be proven?
[13:44] Qwark Allen: we were talking about the life after death
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: im not so sure about it either even if thats what the LHC tries to recreate but as i said before how can an explosion that created all stuff around us happen out of nothing
[13:44] herman Bergson: There is a lot we don't know..that is ok
[13:45] herman Bergson: but we know that the brain generates the mind...that is for sure
[13:45] herman Bergson: By altering the brain you alter the mind...
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: or maybe you just cloud the connection
[13:45] herman Bergson: When the brain is destroyed by Alzheimer for instance...the body stays but the person is gone
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: maybe the mind is untouchable in every aspect
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: well the person's memory is gone
[13:46] Qwark Allen: you are seeing only the part, when brain is destroyed
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: they can still interact normally in the present
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: loss of memory is a storage problem
[13:46] Qwark Allen: what about when it`s enhanced?
[13:46] Alarice Beaumont: but gemma .. with the memory .. the person is gone
[13:46] herman Bergson: Oh yes Gemmma I agree....
[13:46] Gemma Cleanslate: oh i don't think that
[13:46] Alarice Beaumont: I must agree with herman
[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: if they hear and answer you they are still there
[13:47] herman Bergson: We'll get to the philosophical issue of personal identity certainly
[13:47] Qwark Allen: the are people that have a "vision" that none of us here can explain
[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:47] Qwark Allen: yet the exist
[13:47] Qwark Allen: they*
[13:47] Alarice Beaumont: well... they exist.. but it's not a "life"
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....
[13:47] Gemma Cleanslate: yes i agree
[13:47] Qwark Allen: i meet already some of these
[13:47] Qwark Allen: in my life
[13:47] Qwark Allen: sorry bout that
[13:47] Alarice Beaumont: me too ...it is quite awful :-(
[13:48] Alarice Beaumont: if you know the person... and are seeing what happens
[13:48] Qwark Allen: i`m talking of people that see more then our eyes can see
[13:48] Alarice Beaumont: the third eye?
[13:48] Qwark Allen: something like that
[13:48] Qwark Allen: not really a 3d eye
[13:48] Qwark Allen: but a "intuition"
[13:48] herman Bergson: Neurobiological research has shown that by stimulating the brain ingivenareas you can have all kinds of visions
[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:49] Qwark Allen: you got to separate that from the squizo ones
[13:49] herman Bergson: By stimulating the brain people have seen Jesus , departed family..etc
[13:49] Qwark Allen: not illusions, we are talking about
[13:49] Qwark Allen: or psicotic
[13:50] herman Bergson: Well Qwark, I would say that all these visions and insights are generated by the supersense
[13:51] herman Bergson: They are inaccessible for outsiders
[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: that is true
[13:51] Qwark Allen: i wish you meet someone like this sometime
[13:51] Gemma Cleanslate: probably has
[13:51] herman Bergson: When someone claims to have seen the Holy Virgin...you can do nothing with that claim
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: that is true too
[13:52] Qwark Allen: i was a materialist until my 30ies
[13:52] Alarice Beaumont: yes..
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: other that shake my head and back away
[13:52] herman Bergson: smiles..me too Qwark and I still am ^_^
[13:52] Qwark Allen: i`m not
[13:52] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:53] herman Bergson: I agree with you that I love to believe there is more....
[13:53] Qwark Allen: i`ve my self had experiences in this life that proved me, that , materialist is not 100% right way to explain nature
[13:53] Alarice Beaumont: Qwark... i think there is no absolute truth... it's something of everthing
[13:53] Qwark Allen: indeed
[13:54] herman Bergson: That is the main characteristic of statements based on supersense....
[13:54] Qwark Allen: it is my point of view
[13:54] herman Bergson: they all relate to personal experiences
[13:54] herman Bergson: so they never can be intersubjective
[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: that is so true
[13:54] Qwark Allen: i should start take the medication again
[13:54] Qwark Allen: ehehh
[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ LOL ♥
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:54] Alarice Beaumont: well... i don't think there are terrorists who really can talk about the 72 virgins ,-)
[13:55] Alarice Beaumont: so no experience there ^^
[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:55] herman Bergson: No..no one came back to introduce the 72 girls to us
[13:55] Alarice Beaumont: ,-)
[13:55] Qwark Allen: when we try to generalize this kind of questions, always get in wrong field
[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: have to go
[13:56] Alarice Beaumont: yes... it is quite difficult to nail it down
[13:56] herman Bergson: Then it is time to dismiss the class Qwark...^_^
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: tuesday I hope I will be on time
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Gemma
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: maybe not
[13:56] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!
[13:56] Qwark Allen: ok
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all for the great discussion again
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: interesting for sure ㋡
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: as usual
[13:56] Qwark Allen: at least i told yours my opinion about
[13:56] Qwark Allen: ;-)
[13:56] Qwark Allen: was interesting like always
[13:56] herman Bergson: Just know that hundreds of people around the world love us and read the blog of the class ^_^
[13:57] Alarice Beaumont: yes very :-)
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: Thank you , Professor
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] herman Bergson: Like Hope did all the time :-)
[13:57] Qwark Allen: ah nice
[13:57] Alarice Beaumont: can you see how often it is clicked?
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: yo have some valid considerations Qwark
[13:57] herman Bergson: Look at the map on the wall here Alarice...
[13:58] Qwark Allen: it was what i`ve been thinking this last years
[13:58] herman Bergson: Every red dot is a person visiting our blog
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: aa ok
[13:58] Qwark Allen: see you tuesday
[13:58] herman Bergson: from Alaska to New Zealand
[13:58] Qwark Allen: got to go to
[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: wow, cool
[13:58] Qwark Allen: party in 5 minutes
[13:58] Qwark Allen: :-)
[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: late on Q-man
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: aaa nice
[13:58] Alarice Beaumont: wow.... incredible!
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: Im on ㋡
[13:58] Qwark Allen: kk
[13:58] herman Bergson: Have fun Qwark!
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: time to scare up my neighbors
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:58] Alarice Beaumont: fantastic!
[13:59] Alarice Beaumont: hahahah
[13:59] herman Bergson: the blog has about 10 followers for instance..another class soto speak
[14:00] Alarice Beaumont: think it's great :-)
[14:00] Alarice Beaumont: good acknowledgement of your work :-)
[14:00] herman Bergson: Yes it is certainly motivating to go on ^_^
[14:00] herman Bergson: Like this class is too
[14:01] AristotleVon Doobie: it is good to see the interest