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Showing posts with label
Functional magnetic resonance imaging.
Show all posts
Showing posts with label
Functional magnetic resonance imaging.
Show all posts
The title of this project is "The Mystery of the Brain". This means that it is not a 100% philosophical project, but an interdisciplinary one which involves, evolutionary psychology, neurosciences, cognitive psychology and philosophy.Our premise is a materialistic starting point: We are our brain. All what we call mental is produced by that brain. Of course we'll discuss this premise extensively, but not yet.With the topic of lie detection we enter a very sensitive area. What has been hidden inside our skull since the origins of mankind, can now be revealed.Everything that we regard as private, can be shown in an fMRI scan. Behind me you see the picture of the brain of a liar.There also other techniques, which use electrodes on de skull. And it is already discovered, that it takes 200 milliseconds more to prepare a lie in the brain than the truth.This neurorevolution raises serious questions about the relation between the state and the individual. Where begins our privacy? Can we be forced to undergo a fMRI scan?And what will happen in court? Has the accused to allow a fMRI scan to demonstrate if he is lying. And the witnesses, shouldn't they be scanned too? What about the concept of guilt. Suppose we scan the brain of a murderer and ask him : "Did you kill that person?" and he answers "No, I didn't" (even tho we have a video of his crime) and his brain shows no special activity at all, not the "lie pattern"?The more we know how the brain works, how our actions are caused by our brain, the more urgent become questions after personal autonomy, responsibility and free will.By inventing the subconscious Freud already questioned our free will and responsibility for our actions. The deeper we can look into our brain and see causes and effects, the bigger such questions become.Patricia Churchland, neurophilosopher at the University of San Diego, suggest that it is about time that we revise our metaphysical concept of free will.Her idea is that instead we should talk about self-control. A less vague quality, which as we can see, manifests itself in varying degrees.Neuroscientists can specify which brain structures are involved in the control of all kinds of behavior and how they can be weakened or reinforced.The activities concerning lie detection have gone commercial already. We keep on dreaming of unmasking the lie. Cephos is one of these companies, which will help you.On their homepage we read:- quoteCephos employs experienced professionals who are recognized as experts in their respective fields and are available to testify in court. We have developed the latest, most scientifically advanced, brain imaging techniques for scientifically accurate lie detection. The methods have been featured in international print, national television shows and we have been awarded U.S. patents based on our technology. The array of services we offer allows the most innovative approaches to uncover the truth. That's why law firms, corporations, and individuals turn to Cephos for professional, responsible, and dedicated services.-end quote.Go now to http://www.cephoscorp.com/ and watch the 4 minutes video. See for yourself…… and if you haven't had enough, have a look at http://www.brainwavescience.com/ or read this article http://www.damninteresting.com/brain-fingerprinting or http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/issues/mental_surveillance.htm The Discussion[13:25] herman Bergson: But have a look at that video...[13:26] herman Bergson: I'll wait the 4 minutes……………[13:31] herman Bergson: Did you look at the video?[13:31] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): yes[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: yes[13:31] Adriana Jinn: yes[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:31] herman Bergson: It scared me...[13:31] Anja Tigerfish: yes[13:31] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): why?[13:31] Mick Nerido: very scary...[13:32] herman Bergson: Well...first...the blood pumping theory….[13:32] herman Bergson: completely unclear what areas of the brain were active and why[13:32] Mick Nerido: A persons mind is private like his home . No?[13:32] herman Bergson: well Mick..as you saw....his wife lives there now too ^_^[13:33] Mick Nerido: lol[13:33] Bejiita Imako: i guess if u in general answer uncomfortable questions will give same activity in blood flow no matter if true or false[13:33] herman Bergson: Could be true Bejiita[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and thus give uncorrect conclusions[13:33] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): he already knew the questions[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes that is the procedure...[13:34] herman Bergson: the client studies the questions in advance[13:34] Bejiita Imako: that seemed a bit wierd too[13:34] herman Bergson: But what was so scary to me was that this couple came for an answer and in fact didnt get it...[13:35] herman Bergson: No no....it is good to have knowledge of the questions....the brain can't lie...[13:35] Bejiita Imako: meaning the company is a scam thats just after your wallet[13:35] herman Bergson: to some extend I would say yes...[13:36] herman Bergson: To give you a reason....[13:36] herman Bergson: when you swallow during answering the questions...your brain will become active[13:36] herman Bergson: and screws up the test because of the 'blood pumping'[13:36] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): omg[13:37] Adriana Jinn: well[13:37] Mick Nerido: Like lie dectators, some can fool it[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...you must absolutel lie still.....not a muscle may move[13:37] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): if you talk you move[13:38] herman Bergson: answers are given by mouseclick....know motoric part of the brain[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes also do fMRIs make awful loud banging noises due to the superconductors turning on and of and stressing the brain[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i thing even u need hearing protection as it can be as loud as 120 db[13:39] herman Bergson: Well.....at least you have seen a glimpse of our future...[13:39] Mick Nerido: Could this be used in capital punishment as a recourse of last resort?[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...Mick.....[13:39] herman Bergson: The courts in the US do not yet accept this evidence....[13:39] Mick Nerido: If you lie the machine kills you[13:40] herman Bergson: that will be the 2.0 model Mick[13:40] Mick Nerido: lol[13:40] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:40] herman Bergson: we are just working on version 1.0[13:40] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): you laugh..but it COULD be possible[13:40] herman Bergson: oh yes....[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): who is to establsih that the machine is 100%accurate? there seems to be always an element of doubt[13:41] Mick Nerido: brave new world indeed[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: think so too Aristotle[13:41] herman Bergson: as I said Aristotle...when you swallow during the test all goes wrong...[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): especially in a capital punishment decision[13:41] Mick Nerido: best 2 out of 3 tests[13:41] herman Bergson: But look at the Brain Fingerprinting material....[13:42] herman Bergson: the brain produces certain waves when seeing something familiar[13:42] herman Bergson: so when you show the criminal the face of his victim the brain will react if he has seen that face[13:43] herman Bergson: But what if it is the face of his sister?[13:43] herman Bergson: And so on....[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think commercially it will be very beneficial for marketers, in the legal arena I am extremely supect[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes can be anyone he knows then he react to[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): suspect[13:44] herman Bergson: However...this is our future....the brain will be the place to be...[13:44] Mick Nerido: I'll buy stock in Cephos[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Orwell was a smart man[13:45] herman Bergson: What was most remarkable was that as soon as someone had found something in lie detection....they went commercial...started a company...[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Big Brother is watching you?[13:45] herman Bergson: Cephos and Brain Fingerprinting are the leading companie in the business...[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and manipulating you for sure, Beertje[13:45] Mick Nerido: there goes job interview lies[13:46] herman Bergson: yes indeed Mich....thy just put you in a scanner[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL who will find jobs now?[13:46] Mick Nerido: the ones who lie least?[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: or most[13:46] herman Bergson: no..only scanner operators[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: depends on job.[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): are they the best employees, tath is the philosophical question[13:47] Mick Nerido: Buy you way in[13:47] herman Bergson: Main question is privacy.....[13:47] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): and when Cephos is lying?[13:48] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehehe[13:48] herman Bergson: It will suffer of blood pumping Beertje :-)[13:48] herman Bergson: But just think about it.....[13:48] herman Bergson: what has been our personal domain since the beginning of mankind....[13:48] Mick Nerido: good for airline scanning[13:48] herman Bergson: is going to be invaded too[13:49] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): mankind has always methods to pull the truth out of you..[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Shall we all have an international barcode with the results of our last MRI for all to read our 'label'[13:50] herman Bergson: Was just thinking that Beertje....they dont need to torture the person anymore when they can use the fMRI scanner[13:50] Mick Nerido: good idea Aristotle[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): hmm..the only possitive thing[13:50] Bejiita Imako: as long u can get the technology working[13:51] Bejiita Imako: as said that damn "blood pumping" theory doesnt hold at all[13:51] Bejiita Imako: need some better stuff[13:51] herman Bergson: It scared me Bejiita[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): what about people with a high blood presure?[13:51] Bejiita Imako: or everyone will be accuseed to be a terrorist[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): wont need religion anymore,the barcode will say whether we are good or bad[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): all hail the MRI[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): no..ari...it just tells us if we are lying[13:52] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): telling the truth about our misbehave is the truth[13:52] Adriana Jinn: .)))) [13:52] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and the neuroscientists become the new clergy[13:52] herman Bergson: Well my friends......[13:53] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...[13:53] Mick Nerido: Mind priests[13:53] herman Bergson: I never ended a lecture with an uneasy feeling[13:53] herman Bergson: but this time I do....[13:53] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): did you tell the truth about this Herman?[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL[13:54] Anja Tigerfish: hahahahaaaa[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hahaha[13:54] Ciska Riverstone laughs[13:54] herman Bergson: feels his blood pumping...[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): scan his barcode[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes I did Beertje[13:54] Mick Nerido: one of the best lectures I heard[13:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa indeed[13:54] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): smiles[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:54] Mick Nerido: No lie[13:54] Adriana Jinn: very interesting yes[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: interessting as always - thank you herman[13:55] herman Bergson: That is no lie![13:55] Bejiita Imako: but hope for sure this detector practice wont develop in a bad way[13:55] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)[13:55] Adriana Jinn: thanks much herman[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): very stimulating Professor, thank you[13:55] Bejiita Imako: noone is messing inside my mind without permission at least[13:55] Bejiita Imako: picking out whatever they want[13:56] Bejiita Imako: and not my harddrives either[13:56] Bejiita Imako: my stuff is my stuff[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I fear they mess with our minds straight from the cradle[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty, herman and class! was interesting, again once![13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:56] Bejiita Imako: very[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: Have a great day/ night everyone[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all...[13:56] Adriana Jinn: bye all and thanks[13:57] herman Bergson: Bye Adriana[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Adriana[13:57] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hugs all[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: yeeahhh...huggy and kissy for all[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see u hursday[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: *-*rOfl*-*[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: *-*r0fl*-*[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bye:)[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: bybye all[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Tschüss machs gut bis zum nächsten Mal [13:57] Anja Tigerfish: bye[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I willsee if I can even TP now LOL[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: ______ ()*"*()___[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: _____("(~¸¸~)")___[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Müde bin ich,geh zur Ruh,[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: mache meine Augen zu.[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Erst das Rechte,dann das Linke,[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Gute Nacht und winke winke [13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Bye![13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): gentle folks[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Bye![13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Byeeeee!!![13:58] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): biss zum naechsten mahl Bergie[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): EVERYBODY!!! :D[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thanks again Herman[13:58] herman Bergson: You are welcome, Aristotle
Where there are people, there are lies. And the most interesting thing is, that lying is the result of the evolution of our brain. And we are the best liars there are on earth.Research on primates has shown that it especially concerns -from an evolutionary point of view- the youngest parts of our brain. The six layers of the neo-cortex which are almost 80% of our brain.Don't worry ..we aren't the only sinners in this world. Apes are good at it too. That is, the larger the neo-cortext the more cunning the individual becomes.We lie all day. Big lies, small lies…whatever, we lie and sometimes tell the truth. But if you did not lie, you soon would be out of a job, divorced, hated by your friends. So it is the grease in our social life. If it weren't, we wouldn't be here as the result of evolution. It seems to be a survival tool.However, there is hardly a religion that approves of lying. But it is sooooooo human. In Genesis Adam and Eve lied to God. Their son Cain wasn't better. "Where is your brother, Cain"….."hhhmmmmm…I don't know". But God had seen it all and we all know the consequences.And that trick, to see it all, to see any lie, that certainly is one of our dreams. And maybe a brain scan can do the trick": "You can lie, but your brain can not!".Through the centuries every culture had its tricks to expose the liar and in our time the polygraph was the invention. Many European countries reject the machine as unreliable, but in the US it still is popular.However the National Academy of Sciences concluded that "[polygraph testing's] accuracy in distinguishing actual or potential security violators from innocent test takers is insufficient to justify reliance on its use in employee security screening in federal agencies?"Just have a look at the Antipolygraph.org site and you are in the midst of the ongoing debate about unmasking the liar and the bad job the polygraph does in this.But that machine is looking inward from the outside. The neuroscientist looks directly into your skull and observes the actions of your brain. Impossible to hide anything.The psychiatrist Daniel Langleben noticed that children with a hyperactivity problem had problems with lying. That is, they could lie perfectly, but had difficulty NOT to tell the truth.From Neuroscientist Uses Brain Scan to See Lies Formby Dina Temple-Raston, October 30, 2007. Note the date and realize how new this all is in neuroscience!"He thought this might have to do with their lack of impulse control, and from that, he thought it was possible that lying was essentially harder than telling the truth. One had to have good impulse control to lie, otherwise the truth came out first. That led to developing a way to track a lie as it is formed in the brain using a functional magnetic resonance imaging machine, or fMRI."The key point is that you need to exercise a system that is in charge of regulating and controlling your behavior when you lie more than when you just say the truth," Langleben said. "Three areas of the brain generally become more active during deception: the anterior cingulated cortex, the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex and the parietal cortex."The anterior cingulated cortex is thought to be in charge of monitoring errors. The dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex is thought to control behavior. The parietal cortex processes sensory input.As he sees it, lies aren't created out of thin air. Instead, he believes your brain has to think of the truth and then make a decision, in a sense, to do the opposite. If you are instructed to say "the sky is green," Langleben believes your brain first thinks about the sky's true color, blue, before going with the falsehood. That process shows up on the fMRI scan."To conclude this introductory lie. Have you ever seen a MRI scanner? It is interesting, but also clear that the technology is still pretty rough. But beware when they have developed one not larger than a helmet.http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15744871Neuroscientist Uses Brain Scan to See Lies Formby Dina Temple-Raston, October 30, 2007http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/noliemri/MRI Lie Detection
The Discussion[13:23] herman Bergson: thank you....[13:23] herman Bergson: This last statement Jerome has a philosophical catch :-)[13:23] Jerome Ronzales: ok[13:23] herman Bergson: so feel free ..the floor is yours[13:24] druth Vlodovic: don't you engage in a certain amount of processing before telling the truth?[13:24] Aya Beaumont: The problem is that fMRI used to be all that. More recent studies have shown that maybe the technique isn't that useful.[13:24] Jerome Ronzales: ill communicate it to the canary in the kitchen[13:24] Mick Nerido: Lying seems to be a social lubricant...[13:24] Aya Beaumont: Why? Because the areas shown are truly massive.[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would think one weighs the cost/benefit of truth or lie before speaking either[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: rightly said so aya[13:25] Jerome Ronzales: :\[13:25] herman Bergson: Well Druth..it seems that the brain needs little action to generate the truth[13:25] Aya Beaumont: It's all well and good to say "it's in the anterior cingulate cortex"[13:26] Aya Beaumont: Understand that if each neuron would be an inch across, that would be the size of a continent.[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Aya...just look at the machine in the picture behind me...[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: may be we should think about lies are a survival phenomena?[13:26] druth Vlodovic: but a nervous or polite person might spend time rewriting the truth to say it in a way acceptable to the listener[13:26] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would also tend to think that our survival instinct has to be involved in the mix[13:26] herman Bergson: So clumsy......but we manage :-)[13:26] Bejiita Imako: maybe[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: lying--you look for an advantage..[13:27] Aya Beaumont: Second problem: The areas they claim have a specific function actually have anything but. It is a simplification that stuck.[13:27] herman Bergson: Lies ARE a survival phenomenon Baldur..[13:27] Mick Nerido: A plausable lie is better than an implausible truth[13:27] BALDUR Joubert: right..but how and why....[13:27] Aya Beaumont: Third problem: These areas vary greatly between people.[13:27] Jerome Ronzales: not kidding, how do you explain to a canary that is water and food are over, neuroscience to a canary is genius. he will never noticest until he falls down in the dirty old water, right?[13:27] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and sometimes lying made be the less hostile way of saying 'it is none of your busy'[13:27] Jerome Ronzales: i hope its readable..[13:28] Mick Nerido: Lieing is creativity at work[13:28] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): surely Mick, it is artful[13:28] herman Bergson: Well... the lie as a feuture of our behavior...we need it ...that is clear...[13:29] Aya Beaumont: But no matter all that: There are still ways of cheating on it.[13:29] herman Bergson: Baldur asks...WHY...good question....[13:29] Aya Beaumont: First of all, make sure you don't lie. If you can convince yourself that something is true, you're good.[13:29] Jerome Ronzales: common the canary brain is so small he will live happily ever after[13:29] herman Bergson: Fact is ..that someone who only tells the truth gets kicked out...[13:29] Mick Nerido: The truth is not always the answer we want[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes..it is a complex issue..[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that seems to be the case indeed[13:30] Jerome Ronzales: canary*[13:30] Bejiita Imako: complex like hell[13:30] herman Bergson: you can philosophize about it for hours...until the canary is dead[13:30] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): How naked we would be if all our truths were known[13:30] Jerome Ronzales: not quite.[13:30] Mick Nerido: Lies could be wishful thinking[13:31] Aya Beaumont: As long as those in power were also exposed this way, that would be okay.[13:31] herman Bergson: More important for us is that neuroscience invaded the skull..gets inside....[13:31] druth Vlodovic: has there been a comparison of fMRI results between lying and other creative endevours?[13:31] herman Bergson: This means a whole new definition of privacy for instance[13:31] BALDUR Joubert: well. i think lying..for humans .. is a behaviour in despite of a opposite conviction..[13:32] Jerome Ronzales: the truth is that the cage that cells the bird is also the only thing he compreends, but like a harmless canary that doesn't happen to humans, and all humans have their defaults, unfortunally[13:32] Aya Beaumont: "Mister Obama, now that you run for your second term... these promises you have made, will you actually push them through?"[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Druth....definitely...[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Still I wonder where the decision is made to tell the truth of the lie[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: so where is his advantage.for survival..or..in society..[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or*[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: smile which for me is the same..[13:32] herman Bergson: yeah good observation Aristotle...[13:32] druth Vlodovic: what were the similarities?[13:32] Jerome Ronzales: and its all for now..[13:33] Aya Beaumont: Oh... and there is a good way not to have to fear this so much...[13:33] Jerome Ronzales: lag[13:33] herman Bergson: JUST HOLD ON!!!![13:33] herman Bergson: First Druth....[13:33] Jerome Ronzales: i quit[13:34] Jerome Ronzales goes back to passive mode.[13:34] herman Bergson: Tests have shown the same MRI pictures of ordinary liars and 'professional' liers...same activity areas[13:35] herman Bergson: What si more fascinating is the remark of Aristotle...[13:35] herman Bergson: Philosophically almost the homunculus idea...[13:35] herman Bergson: there is a little man in your head pushing the buttons[13:35] Aya Beaumont: The entire problem can be solved by implanting something metallic into your skull.[13:35] Mick Nerido: It would be fun to see what a no lie world would be like[13:36] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes , the little man[13:36] herman Bergson: hmmm....just think about that Mick....[13:36] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or woman :)[13:36] BALDUR Joubert: grin..can't you be a big liar ari?[13:36] Mick Nerido: There was a movie...[13:36] herman Bergson: I would meet you....and I would think..geez what ugly outfit...[13:37] herman Bergson: but I need to work with you....[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, and your cross eyes[13:37] Mick Nerido: Are there good and bad lies?[13:37] herman Bergson: So let me be honest Mick..you look ugly...come one we need to work on this job..:_)[13:37] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe that dont sound to good indeed[13:38] Mick Nerido: Ugly truth[13:38] Aya Beaumont: With a metallic brain implant, you will die if they use fMRI on you[13:38] Aya Beaumont: Which should simplify the situation.[13:38] herman Bergson: Very nice Aya..I love that[13:38] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and our personal security would be fragile[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes the superconductying magnets will rip them through the head slashing the head to pieces[13:38] druth Vlodovic: when I disagree with someone I try to start out by agreeing with them, I've never considered it lying...[13:38] druth Vlodovic: though it would be interesting to see if my brain does[13:39] Aya Beaumont: Bejita: No, what happens is they amass heat.[13:39] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I better get one of those implants[13:39] herman Bergson: Cool Druth..yes![13:39] Bejiita Imako: cause i ve seen what those magnets can do[13:39] : llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found[13:40] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): or I will just tell them I have one :)[13:40] Aya Beaumont: yeah, it's no joke.[13:40] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I will lie about it[13:40] Aya Beaumont: You can make a CT scan first to check, Aristotle.[13:40] herman Bergson: ok...this was just the introduction to lying...[13:40] Mick Nerido: Its better that we can't read each others minds[13:41] herman Bergson: next time well discuss the philosophical and ethical implications...[13:41] Bejiita Imako: interesting subject[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :) if they find out the truth I will be in trouble[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and so muct TRUE fact in it as well[13:41] Mick Nerido: LOL[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:41] herman Bergson: So...thank you for your participation...[13:41] herman Bergson: This is no lie...scan my brain..:-)[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thank you Professor, if you are being truthful[13:41] BALDUR Joubert: well..as our av's are lying about how we look..[13:41] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:42] herman Bergson: class dismmissed :-)[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): :)[13:42] Aya Beaumont: This statement is a lie.[13:42] Bejiita Imako: nice again as usual this [13:42] Aya Beaumont: Thank you, Herman.[13:42] herman Bergson: The paradox Aya..nice one ^_^[13:42] Florimell Farstrider: Lying? are you implying I'm not an actual musketeer? ;)[13:42] Mick Nerido: Good class, thanks[13:42] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): If I say I tell only lies, can you believe it?[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle...for that is a paradox as old as the greeks[13:43] Florimell Farstrider: of course not. I'd be a fool to believe such a notorious liar.[13:43] Bejiita Imako: no cause then that statement would also be a lie[13:43] Aya Beaumont: The question is if you can read things from memory instead.[13:43] druth Vlodovic: thank you herman, it was interesting as always[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): indeed, paraphrased by yours truly[13:43] herman Bergson: the paradox is easy to solve....[13:43] Aya Beaumont: But any way it works: there may well be people who can lie without being detected.[13:44] herman Bergson: the statement is self referential...[13:44] herman Bergson: that is the faulty trick[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would think that psychopaths could. Aya[13:44] herman Bergson: I dont know Aya...[13:44] Aya Beaumont: If so, these people will be the ones reaching the top.[13:44] Aya Beaumont: We are all better off if everyone can lie.[13:45] herman Bergson: From a neurobiological point of view I would say NO[13:45] herman Bergson: There is the problem of people believing their own leis...[13:45] Aya Beaumont: Herman, you have no way of knowing, unless you can prove a negative?[13:46] Aya Beaumont: They MAY exist. And thus, believing that they can not is extremely dangerous.[13:46] Florimell Farstrider: I struggled so see what Nietzsche meant when he exclaimed 'Why truth? Why not untruth?'. I'm beginning to come around to his way of thinking. The act of lying is in many ways more remarkable than truth-telling, so why isn't lying held in higher regard?[13:46] herman Bergson: I said ..my guess is No....but people believing their own lies...[13:46] herman Bergson: No idea how thebrain would look like in a scan then..[13:46] Aya Beaumont: As I said, the map is far from complete.[13:47] herman Bergson: this is all so new,Aya....developments siince 2006...[13:47] Aya Beaumont: We have only vague ideas as to what those areas do.[13:47] Aya Beaumont: Indeed.[13:47] herman Bergson: yes so true....[13:47] Mick Nerido: some day we may evolve beyond lying[13:47] herman Bergson: we are still scratching the surface[13:47] druth Vlodovic: or evolve to the point we no longer need truth[13:47] Aya Beaumont: Until we DO know, and that's at least decades away (like fusion), let's not make plans for a no-lie society.[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: smile scatchin g the surface.that is philosophy:)[13:48] herman Bergson: But evenin scratching the durface we are flabbergasted about what we discover[13:48] Aya Beaumont: Absolutely.[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all...[13:49] herman Bergson: :-)[13:49] Aya Beaumont: Thank you.
