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The title of this project is "The Mystery of the Brain". This means that it is not a 100% philosophical project, but an interdisciplinary one which involves, evolutionary psychology, neurosciences, cognitive psychology and philosophy.Our premise is a materialistic starting point: We are our brain. All what we call mental is produced by that brain. Of course we'll discuss this premise extensively, but not yet.With the topic of lie detection we enter a very sensitive area. What has been hidden inside our skull since the origins of mankind, can now be revealed.Everything that we regard as private, can be shown in an fMRI scan. Behind me you see the picture of the brain of a liar.There also other techniques, which use electrodes on de skull. And it is already discovered, that it takes 200 milliseconds more to prepare a lie in the brain than the truth.This neurorevolution raises serious questions about the relation between the state and the individual. Where begins our privacy? Can we be forced to undergo a fMRI scan?And what will happen in court? Has the accused to allow a fMRI scan to demonstrate if he is lying. And the witnesses, shouldn't they be scanned too? What about the concept of guilt. Suppose we scan the brain of a murderer and ask him : "Did you kill that person?" and he answers "No, I didn't" (even tho we have a video of his crime) and his brain shows no special activity at all, not the "lie pattern"?The more we know how the brain works, how our actions are caused by our brain, the more urgent become questions after personal autonomy, responsibility and free will.By inventing the subconscious Freud already questioned our free will and responsibility for our actions. The deeper we can look into our brain and see causes and effects, the bigger such questions become.Patricia Churchland, neurophilosopher at the University of San Diego, suggest that it is about time that we revise our metaphysical concept of free will.Her idea is that instead we should talk about self-control. A less vague quality, which as we can see, manifests itself in varying degrees.Neuroscientists can specify which brain structures are involved in the control of all kinds of behavior and how they can be weakened or reinforced.The activities concerning lie detection have gone commercial already. We keep on dreaming of unmasking the lie. Cephos is one of these companies, which will help you.On their homepage we read:- quoteCephos employs experienced professionals who are recognized as experts in their respective fields and are available to testify in court. We have developed the latest, most scientifically advanced, brain imaging techniques for scientifically accurate lie detection. The methods have been featured in international print, national television shows and we have been awarded U.S. patents based on our technology. The array of services we offer allows the most innovative approaches to uncover the truth. That's why law firms, corporations, and individuals turn to Cephos for professional, responsible, and dedicated services.-end quote.Go now to http://www.cephoscorp.com/ and watch the 4 minutes video. See for yourself…… and if you haven't had enough, have a look at http://www.brainwavescience.com/ or read this article http://www.damninteresting.com/brain-fingerprinting or http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/issues/mental_surveillance.htm The Discussion[13:25] herman Bergson: But have a look at that video...[13:26] herman Bergson: I'll wait the 4 minutes……………[13:31] herman Bergson: Did you look at the video?[13:31] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): yes[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: yes[13:31] Adriana Jinn: yes[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:31] herman Bergson: It scared me...[13:31] Anja Tigerfish: yes[13:31] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): why?[13:31] Mick Nerido: very scary...[13:32] herman Bergson: Well...first...the blood pumping theory….[13:32] herman Bergson: completely unclear what areas of the brain were active and why[13:32] Mick Nerido: A persons mind is private like his home . No?[13:32] herman Bergson: well Mick..as you saw....his wife lives there now too ^_^[13:33] Mick Nerido: lol[13:33] Bejiita Imako: i guess if u in general answer uncomfortable questions will give same activity in blood flow no matter if true or false[13:33] herman Bergson: Could be true Bejiita[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and thus give uncorrect conclusions[13:33] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): he already knew the questions[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes that is the procedure...[13:34] herman Bergson: the client studies the questions in advance[13:34] Bejiita Imako: that seemed a bit wierd too[13:34] herman Bergson: But what was so scary to me was that this couple came for an answer and in fact didnt get it...[13:35] herman Bergson: No no....it is good to have knowledge of the questions....the brain can't lie...[13:35] Bejiita Imako: meaning the company is a scam thats just after your wallet[13:35] herman Bergson: to some extend I would say yes...[13:36] herman Bergson: To give you a reason....[13:36] herman Bergson: when you swallow during answering the questions...your brain will become active[13:36] herman Bergson: and screws up the test because of the 'blood pumping'[13:36] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): omg[13:37] Adriana Jinn: well[13:37] Mick Nerido: Like lie dectators, some can fool it[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...you must absolutel lie still.....not a muscle may move[13:37] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): if you talk you move[13:38] herman Bergson: answers are given by mouseclick....know motoric part of the brain[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes also do fMRIs make awful loud banging noises due to the superconductors turning on and of and stressing the brain[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i thing even u need hearing protection as it can be as loud as 120 db[13:39] herman Bergson: Well.....at least you have seen a glimpse of our future...[13:39] Mick Nerido: Could this be used in capital punishment as a recourse of last resort?[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes...Mick.....[13:39] herman Bergson: The courts in the US do not yet accept this evidence....[13:39] Mick Nerido: If you lie the machine kills you[13:40] herman Bergson: that will be the 2.0 model Mick[13:40] Mick Nerido: lol[13:40] Bejiita Imako: haha[13:40] herman Bergson: we are just working on version 1.0[13:40] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): you laugh..but it COULD be possible[13:40] herman Bergson: oh yes....[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): who is to establsih that the machine is 100%accurate? there seems to be always an element of doubt[13:41] Mick Nerido: brave new world indeed[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: think so too Aristotle[13:41] herman Bergson: as I said Aristotle...when you swallow during the test all goes wrong...[13:41] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): especially in a capital punishment decision[13:41] Mick Nerido: best 2 out of 3 tests[13:41] herman Bergson: But look at the Brain Fingerprinting material....[13:42] herman Bergson: the brain produces certain waves when seeing something familiar[13:42] herman Bergson: so when you show the criminal the face of his victim the brain will react if he has seen that face[13:43] herman Bergson: But what if it is the face of his sister?[13:43] herman Bergson: And so on....[13:43] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I think commercially it will be very beneficial for marketers, in the legal arena I am extremely supect[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes can be anyone he knows then he react to[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): suspect[13:44] herman Bergson: However...this is our future....the brain will be the place to be...[13:44] Mick Nerido: I'll buy stock in Cephos[13:44] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Orwell was a smart man[13:45] herman Bergson: What was most remarkable was that as soon as someone had found something in lie detection....they went commercial...started a company...[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Big Brother is watching you?[13:45] herman Bergson: Cephos and Brain Fingerprinting are the leading companie in the business...[13:45] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and manipulating you for sure, Beertje[13:45] Mick Nerido: there goes job interview lies[13:46] herman Bergson: yes indeed Mich....thy just put you in a scanner[13:46] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL who will find jobs now?[13:46] Mick Nerido: the ones who lie least?[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: or most[13:46] herman Bergson: no..only scanner operators[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: depends on job.[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): are they the best employees, tath is the philosophical question[13:47] Mick Nerido: Buy you way in[13:47] herman Bergson: Main question is privacy.....[13:47] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): and when Cephos is lying?[13:48] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehehe[13:48] herman Bergson: It will suffer of blood pumping Beertje :-)[13:48] herman Bergson: But just think about it.....[13:48] herman Bergson: what has been our personal domain since the beginning of mankind....[13:48] Mick Nerido: good for airline scanning[13:48] herman Bergson: is going to be invaded too[13:49] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): mankind has always methods to pull the truth out of you..[13:49] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Shall we all have an international barcode with the results of our last MRI for all to read our 'label'[13:50] herman Bergson: Was just thinking that Beertje....they dont need to torture the person anymore when they can use the fMRI scanner[13:50] Mick Nerido: good idea Aristotle[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): hmm..the only possitive thing[13:50] Bejiita Imako: as long u can get the technology working[13:51] Bejiita Imako: as said that damn "blood pumping" theory doesnt hold at all[13:51] Bejiita Imako: need some better stuff[13:51] herman Bergson: It scared me Bejiita[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): what about people with a high blood presure?[13:51] Bejiita Imako: or everyone will be accuseed to be a terrorist[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): wont need religion anymore,the barcode will say whether we are good or bad[13:51] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): all hail the MRI[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): no..ari...it just tells us if we are lying[13:52] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): telling the truth about our misbehave is the truth[13:52] Adriana Jinn: .)))) [13:52] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and the neuroscientists become the new clergy[13:52] herman Bergson: Well my friends......[13:53] herman Bergson: yes Aristotle...[13:53] Mick Nerido: Mind priests[13:53] herman Bergson: I never ended a lecture with an uneasy feeling[13:53] herman Bergson: but this time I do....[13:53] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): did you tell the truth about this Herman?[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL[13:54] Anja Tigerfish: hahahahaaaa[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hahaha[13:54] Ciska Riverstone laughs[13:54] herman Bergson: feels his blood pumping...[13:54] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): scan his barcode[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes I did Beertje[13:54] Mick Nerido: one of the best lectures I heard[13:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa indeed[13:54] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): smiles[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:54] Mick Nerido: No lie[13:54] Adriana Jinn: very interesting yes[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: interessting as always - thank you herman[13:55] herman Bergson: That is no lie![13:55] Bejiita Imako: but hope for sure this detector practice wont develop in a bad way[13:55] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)[13:55] Adriana Jinn: thanks much herman[13:55] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): very stimulating Professor, thank you[13:55] Bejiita Imako: noone is messing inside my mind without permission at least[13:55] Bejiita Imako: picking out whatever they want[13:56] Bejiita Imako: and not my harddrives either[13:56] Bejiita Imako: my stuff is my stuff[13:56] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I fear they mess with our minds straight from the cradle[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty, herman and class! was interesting, again once![13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:56] Bejiita Imako: very[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: Have a great day/ night everyone[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all...[13:56] Adriana Jinn: bye all and thanks[13:57] herman Bergson: Bye Adriana[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): bye Adriana[13:57] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: •´¨*•.¸.♥ Bye Bye ♥.¸.•*¨`•[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hugs all[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: yeeahhh...huggy and kissy for all[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see u hursday[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: *-*rOfl*-*[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: *-*r0fl*-*[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bye:)[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: bybye all[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Tschüss machs gut bis zum nächsten Mal [13:57] Anja Tigerfish: bye[13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I willsee if I can even TP now LOL[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: ______ ()*"*()___[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: _____("(~¸¸~)")___[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Müde bin ich,geh zur Ruh,[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: mache meine Augen zu.[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Erst das Rechte,dann das Linke,[13:57] Anja Tigerfish: Gute Nacht und winke winke [13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Bye![13:57] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): gentle folks[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Bye![13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Good Byeeeee!!![13:58] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): biss zum naechsten mahl Bergie[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): EVERYBODY!!! :D[13:58] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): thanks again Herman[13:58] herman Bergson: You are welcome, Aristotle
Justine Meaux, research director of BrightHouse Neurostrategies Group, a division of BrightHouse, said neuromarketing helps companies understand customers' true desires better than the standard marketing approach, focus groups."A lot of what motivates our behavior occurs below the level of conscious awareness," said Meaux, a neuroscientist. "We give [companies] insight into how to develop relationships with consumers."The Atlanta consulting firm BrightHouse has stirred up some controversy in 2004 when neuromarketing was born. Peeking in the brain to control the consumer…….it scared people.- quote"It's wrong to use medical technology for marketing and not for healing," said Gary Ruskin, executive director of Commercial Alert, a Portland, Oregon -based nonprofit organization that has worked to bar advertising from schools and other public areas. "We have epidemics of obesity, diabetes, alcoholism, gambling and smoking -- all tied to marketing. Any increase in the effectiveness of advertising can be devastating to the public."-end quote [from cognitiveliberty.org]Neuromarkting seems to be effective. The standard procedure of marketing is to have a test group to evaluate a new product.For a certain product the test group in the US said "Yeah , great product!" . Brain scans in the UK showed that the product didn't appeal to the consumer. The product was put on the market in the US and it became a major flop.Gemma Calvert, director of UK-based Neurosense, has also demonstrated that the context in which an advertisement message is shown, is crucial for the message.By observing the response of the brain areas that control emotions she could see how the perception of the message was more or less effective.A campaign for the Red Cross, shown in a commercial break in an episode of South Park is downright harmful for the way the individual brain in front of the screen looks at the message.The idea behind neuromarketing is that we get access to information about the consumer and his drives, which information can not be presented voluntarily by the consumer, simply because he himself has no access to that information. And here I refer to the example of the product release I mentioned earlier in this lecture.In 2004 neuromarketing methods were used to measure how Republicans and Democrates responded to propaganda material.It was revealed that brains of Democrats were more annoyed by messages about danger and threats than Republican brains. Democrates reacted stronger on messages about using power than Republicans.Some people find neuromarketing creepy, but Read Montague, the man of the Pepsi test, answers, that neuromarketing, in fact the research on decision-making and communication, won't turn us into "mega-shopping zombies".On the contrary, it creates insight in why we buy things, why we love shopping and how we can influence people with messages, also cultural ones.But just listen to Jonathan Moreno, president of the American Society for Bioethics and Humanities and director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Virginia.- quote"It kind of distorts the marketplace relationship," Moreno said. "There's supposed to be a level playing field between a buyer and a seller. But [with neuromarketing], there isn't an opportunity for the consumer to create a screen against the information. It violates the notion that it's possible for the buyer to beware."- end quoteSo the question is: neuromarketing….is it good or evil…?The Discussion
[13:21] Qwark Allen: have both sides it seems[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you....[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is is my opinion that is the public is educated about neuro marketing and aware of it we will be ok and it wont work as well[13:22] Mick Nerido: It seems it helps us get what we really want but might not know it[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): maybe nick[13:23] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l[13:23] Qwark Allen: lol[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:23] herman Bergson: Looks like it Mick ^_^[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yep[13:23] Qwark Allen: that wasn`t very reassuring[13:23] Bejiita Imako: in some ways at least[13:23] Mick Nerido: Why?[13:24] Bejiita Imako: however as i said before I buy only the stuff i know I really ant and that is good[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): might not be what we really need just what we want[13:24] Florimell Farstrider: Seems like there's a very strong drive with marketing in general to get past our inhibitions, to break them down..[13:25] Bejiita Imako: I dont buy cheap crap that empty my wallet and have a quality that is just a blyff to what the commercial say[13:25] Clerisse Beeswing: Gosh! Think of the tobacco companys getting some kind of neuromarketing going on..scary[13:25] Mick Nerido: A company should not waste money making things no one really wants[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Flori.....the neuro -approach does so[13:25] herman Bergson: No Mick indeed....that is one of the arguments in favor of neuromarketing[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): don't you think they haven't clarisse???[13:26] Bejiita Imako: if someone want me to buy a product it better be as good and useful as they say[13:26] Clerisse Beeswing: Yeah mass advertisement day and night..your right gemma[13:26] herman Bergson: Well another argument is...[13:26] Florimell Farstrider: What this will do to us, if successful, is undermine our social interactions. It's antisocial to not have inhibitions.[13:26] herman Bergson: that when you know how the brain responds to advertisements[13:27] herman Bergson: You can take measures to block some ...[13:27] herman Bergson: Like now liquor and tabacco advertisements are forbidden on TV in the Netherlands[13:28] herman Bergson: You don't need neuromarketing to know how we respond to tobacco and alcohol tho ^_^[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: well tobacco is here - doesn't seem to help[13:28] Qwark Allen: at a long time in portugal[13:28] Mick Nerido: We are not talking advertising but more effective focus groups[13:29] herman Bergson: well Mick..as I gave the example of the credit card ad....[13:29] Bejiita Imako: was shopping today and there they often let people try out stuff when they have some new tasty thing and then i can check for myself if I like the stuff[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that a good thing[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and If i like it I buy it[13:29] Clerisse Beeswing: if it taste good..why not[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:30] herman Bergson: The more philosophical point in all this is free will....[13:30] Bejiita Imako: don't know what the stuff is called in english[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ill check[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that is bought today[13:30] Mick Nerido: If a product is harmful like tobacco it should be banned from ads[13:30] Bejiita Imako: aaa true[13:30] Bejiita Imako: eew tobacco not my thing[13:30] herman Bergson: When they peek into our brain and manipulate messages....are we free consumers?[13:30] Bejiita Imako: but a nice rum or whiskey is lice as long u dont drink too much[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is not always products... it is also ideas[13:31] Bejiita Imako: thats nice things[13:31] Mick Nerido: I think yes, we still have free will[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: no we are not free..we are like slaves[13:31] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:31] Bejiita Imako: that too[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...like in 2004 in the Clinton campaign[13:31] Florimell Farstrider: were we ever free consumers? =)[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: think so too gemma[13:32] herman Bergson: Well Flori...Free will will be an issue in coming lectures[13:32] Mick Nerido: We can be manipulated but we can also learn to stop it[13:32] herman Bergson: Some neuroscientists already claim that we have no free will[13:32] herman Bergson: yes Mick...that is exactly what they say.....[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aaa now i found the word[13:33] herman Bergson: The better insight in how our brain opperates the better we can deal with it[13:33] Clerisse Beeswing: What took over our free will? Our learned experiences[13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly my point before[13:33] Bejiita Imako: what i bought was a potato pancake mix, in swedish we call it "raggmunk"[13:33] herman Bergson: No Clerisse....[13:33] herman Bergson: Research has shown...[13:33] Florimell Farstrider: We're probably free to the extent that we don't know what compels us...[13:34] Mick Nerido: True[13:34] herman Bergson: that when you say NOW I gone raise my hand...[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:34] herman Bergson: half a second before you showed this conscious act of saying so[13:34] herman Bergson: the brain had already set all in motion....[13:34] Mick Nerido: Too wierd[13:34] herman Bergson: motor neurons etc.[13:34] Clerisse Beeswing: hmm so its so deep[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes...[13:35] Bejiita Imako: interesting for sure[13:35] herman Bergson: I'll spend some lectures on this subject definitely[13:35] herman Bergson: It is very weird....[13:35] Mick Nerido: free will an illusion of the mind?[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes...Mick....[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: wow never thought that[13:36] herman Bergson: What we call our consciousness is just a babblebox ..telling stories afterwards ^_^...as they say[13:36] Mick Nerido: than what is making us do what we do?[13:36] herman Bergson: Well....there are several answers to that Mick..... long story..[13:36] herman Bergson: good for a few lectures ^_^[13:37] Mick Nerido: It all happens so fast in our mins who can tell[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes...and this thing with neuromarketing....[13:37] herman Bergson: When you see an ad you have the feeling thta you can say NO....[13:38] herman Bergson: But brainscans just SHOW what you gonna say...if you simplify ithe situation...[13:38] Mick Nerido: I know that feeling,lol[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:38] herman Bergson: Your brain does the job….and is beyond your control[13:39] Mick Nerido: We need a droid to filter stuff for us[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:39] Bejiita Imako: heheh[13:39] Qwark Allen: ehehhe[13:39] Florimell Farstrider: I think it was Freud who first did experiments with this. Hed use hypnotic suggestion to make people do something specific and absurd on cue after the trance. Then he'd ask them why they did it. They always rationalised their behavior, or tried to. they never sad 'I have Noooooo! idea why I just did tat.'[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: Who does the programming for it?[13:40] Qwark Allen: is there anyone with some kind of control?[13:40] Mick Nerido: Nice point[13:40] Qwark Allen: are there laws about it?[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes it is a situation like that Flori[13:40] herman Bergson: Interesting question Ciska...who does the programming....[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but there is a rational answe for that we never do what we think is wrong under hypnosis[13:40] Qwark Allen: seems the ones that should do the regulamention, are the ones that ude it most[13:41] herman Bergson: An important part is done by evolution...[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and those people trusted their doctor![13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): shame on him[13:41] Qwark Allen: use*[13:41] herman Bergson: then our education[13:41] herman Bergson: and then outr genetic heritage[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...I hope you still experience yourself as free minds ^_^[13:42] Qwark Allen: l ☺ ☻ ☺ l[13:42] Qwark Allen: lol[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahaha[13:42] herman Bergson: So think about it...[13:42] Clerisse Beeswing: lol..so to speak..yes[13:42] Bejiita Imako: well I still do anyway[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahah[13:42] herman Bergson: And thank you for your participation...:-)[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^[13:42] Qwark Allen: i wonder to what i`m susceptable[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:42] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`[13:42] Qwark Allen: thank you[13:43] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:43] Clerisse Beeswing: Wow! Thank you professor[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: Thank You Herman :)[13:43] Mick Nerido: Free , thanks[13:43] Bejiita Imako: great once again[13:43] Qwark Allen: very interesting and a opening of the mind[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:43] herman Bergson: My pleasure Clerisse[13:43] Bejiita Imako: indeed[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you thursday i think[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: bye everyone - have a great day/ evening[13:44] Bejiita Imako: son[13:44] Bejiita Imako: cu soon[13:44] herman Bergson: Have fun everyone ^_^[13:45] herman Bergson: The class looks great with the new design of the seats[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes[13:45] Bejiita Imako: good work[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:46] herman Bergson: thank you Bejiita :-)[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon
Welcome to the 300th lecture of The Philosophy Class and allow me to mention my special admiration for those here present who have endured almost all 300: Gemma, Qwark and Aristotle and Alarice.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------herman Bergson: ♫♪♫♪ ♪♫♪♫ APPLAUSE ♪♫♪♫ ♫♪♫♪ Gemma Allen : wowBejiita Imako: \o/Bejiita Imako: || Hoooo!Bejiita Imako: / \Gemma Allen : OMG!!!Gemma Allen : omgGemma Allen : ♥ LOL ♥:: Beertje :: : *•.¸'*•.¸ ♥ ¸.•*´¸.•*:: Beertje :: : .•*♥¨`• BRAVO!!!! •¨`♥*•.:: Beertje :: : ¸.•*`¸.•*´ ♥ `*•.¸`*•.¸Gemma Allen : almostAristotle von Doobie : Bravo!.....Bravo!!!Gemma Allen : i think i missed someherman Bergson: yes....!herman Bergson: I therefore said "almost all" ^_^BALDUR Joubert: grinAristotle von Doobie : I am sure Gemma has the recordherman Bergson: I think so too Aristotle...-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Neuroeconomics may be interesting, because it focusses on the decision-making processes in the brain. Neuromarketing is even cooler (for some parties), because it focusses on the "buy-button" in the brain.It all began with the psychologists, who developed all kinds of tests to reveal the consumer's preferences. Then the sociologists added the test group to the marketing equipment. And now the neuroscientists offer the marketing guys the brain. They love to scan our brains when we drool and want to buy that car. They peek in our brains at locations where we ourselves even cannot reach.This is again a new development in the neuro-world. Again of recent date. And keep in mind, a scientific development that started 5 years or so ago on such a complex object as the brain, means nothing. It's just scratching the surface.It all began with the neuroscientist Clinton Kilts of Emory University in Atlanta in 2003. The goal of his research wasn't at all neuromarketing. It even didn't exist then.He was just curious about the question why certain products are popular and others just a flop. The experiment was simple. Test persons were shown a series of products that they had to rate on a scale of numbers.Then the test persons were put in the fMRI-scanner and were shown the products again. And what happened? Every time a test person saw a product he liked the medial prefrontal cortex fired like hell.The prefrontal cortex (PFC) is the anterior part of the frontal lobes of the brain. This brain region has been implicated in planning complex cognitive behaviors, personality expression, decision making and moderating correct social behavior.So this part of the brain is highly involved with our self-identification and the construction of our personality. When you point at your forehead just above your nose you are pointing at that region of the brain…. peculiar gesture by the way :-)Clinton Kilts had found something. Just by looking into the brain of the consumer you can see whether he likes the product or not. He concluded that there is some identification of the self with the product. The product fits in with the personality.Don't get too upset right now. It doesn't mean that Kilts had discovered the button to push to make the consumer actually buy the product. The decision to buy something is a way more complex brain process.A classic experiment in this matter is the Pepsi - paradox. The experiment was executed by Read Montague of Baylor College of Medicine in Houston.It is already a well known fact that when you blindfolded taste Cola and Pepsi, the majority of people will say that the second one (that was Pepsi) tastes better.Montague put people in the fMRI-scanner and made them taste the two unmarked liquids. When drinking Pepsi a part of the striatum, which is associated with the 'rewarding system' in the brain, fired significantly stronger then when the test person tasted Cola.But here comes the catch. When the test persons were told which brown liquid was which, they all of a sudden almost all preferred the Coca-Cola, even when it wasn't the case before.And while peeking in the brains of these versatile test persons something special was observed. The medial prefrontal cortex entered the debate with the putamen in the striatum, that gives us the feeling of being rewarded.The brain part with the higher cognitive functions (medial prefrontal cortex) interfered and outclassed the direct experience of reward (putamen), which was caused by the taste experience.An amazing observation, which tells us how we consciously and subconsciously experience the world around us. It is the brain that does the shopping, not we.The Discussion[13:20] herman Bergson: And to coclude this 300th lecture I would like to thank Ciska for the choclate cake :-)[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you...[13:21] herman Bergson: This was just an introduction to the phenomenon of neuromarketing[13:21] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yummy, looks delicious![13:21] Peli (peli.dieterle): ! ! ! Applause ! ! ![13:21] Anja Tigerfish: Hm.......chocolate cake.....)))[13:21] Bejiita Imako: Hooo!!![13:21] Bejiita Imako: Hoooo![13:21] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********[13:21] Zinzi Serevi: we are nothing more then our brains i would say[13:21] Bejiita Imako: great[13:21] herman Bergson: Every one can have a piace after our discussion ^_^[13:21] Bejiita Imako ♪♥♪APPLAUDS!!!♪♥♪[13:21] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![13:21] Anja Tigerfish: Haha dats funny!![13:21] Bejiita Imako: looks tasty yes[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i would rather have cheese cake[13:22] Bejiita Imako: eating Toblerone rl[13:22] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): LOL[13:22] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:22] Bejiita Imako: also tasty[13:22] herman Bergson: ok....calm down....there is enough for everyone[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:22] herman Bergson: Let's stick to our subject...[13:22] herman Bergson: I would say YES Zinzi that is that we are...our brain[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: smile.zinsi.. may be more.. may be our brains arejust what we can "see"..[13:23] herman Bergson: Like the title of the book of Dick Swaab...Dutch neuroscientist....[13:23] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): the interesting thing in the dissauding of our natural selection of Pepsi is the social conditioning Coca Cola has subjected us to[13:23] Zinzi Serevi: so what is the rest[13:23] herman Bergson: Wij zijn ons brein / We are our brain[13:23] BALDUR Joubert: but that tells nothing about what we "are"[13:23] Zinzi Serevi: yes it does[13:23] herman Bergson: We are organic beings Baldur...[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): my friend drank coke every day for years we went to a fair and she picked the pepsi as the best drink in a test lo[13:24] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): name recognition being drummed into us constantly[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: smile beji you work in cern?[13:24] herman Bergson: Result of 5 million years of evolution[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that col st wars interesting, its like we have been indoctrated that coca olai nr 1 no matter the taste[13:24] Zinzi Serevi: yes a brain is flexible and can learn[13:24] BALDUR Joubert: the basis of organic components ..is still materia..[13:24] Zinzi Serevi: but you can only as far as your brains allow[13:24] druth Vlodovic: there must be a biological component to picking what we believe is "popular" in order to maximize acceptance by others[13:25] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): politicians do the same thing at election time....we knew that Bush was bad for us LOL[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: lol.. yes..wehave our limits..[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!![13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): omg yes[13:25] Bejiita Imako: aaarrgh damn keyboard[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): at least we did ari[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:25] BALDUR Joubert: was he ari? he will just be another one in history[13:25] Bejiita Imako: comåputer at work was hopeless too today[13:25] herman Bergson: Let's stick to the subject Baldur....[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: ok..[13:26] Zinzi Serevi: ppl who have a brain injury can be total strangers to their family after[13:26] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yet, folks are much like sheep and can be led away from apparently what they know is good for them[13:26] herman Bergson: let's look at what Druth said...[13:26] BALDUR Joubert: i'm sticking to the subject..cause i question all the discoveries you cited[13:26] herman Bergson: There is an interesting aspect in our behavior...[13:26] herman Bergson: When we buy things....[13:27] herman Bergson: We value the object...[13:27] herman Bergson: next lecture I'll dig into that some more...[13:27] herman Bergson: we put value in objects...[13:27] herman Bergson: but not only because of the design or utility....[13:27] herman Bergson: It also gets a social value....[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: herman. i question cause you cite your examples as being brain ..but not subject to any influence..indoctrination of the brain..[13:28] Zinzi Serevi: yes ppl can fall in love for things they buy[13:28] herman Bergson: Bought my car because it is bigger than the one of my neighbor[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: so the brain structure is not the necessary cause..[13:28] BALDUR Joubert: its the input..[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: cause is the value?[13:29] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): it is interesting to not that things I buy must have utility but they must be pleasing in appearance also....different parts to the brain being satisfied?[13:29] herman Bergson: the wiring of the brain makes us who we are Baldur....[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: shit in shit out..that i learned about computers a decade ago[13:29] Zinzi Serevi: so why do i make other choices then you do Baldur?[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:29] Bejiita Imako: true[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: not the wiring harman.. i disagree..[13:29] BALDUR Joubert: it's what we learn[13:29] Bejiita Imako: now i have banged on the keyboard a bit however and seem work better now[13:29] Bejiita Imako: stupid machine[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe[13:30] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): and you personal makeup will decide with is more important in you purchase[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: the wiring is the same for all..more or less..[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle....that is what I mean.....[13:30] Bejiita Imako: what i tried say before however is that we seem to have been indocrtrinated that coca cola is the better one despite the taste[13:30] herman Bergson: our brains are shaped during our personal development...[13:30] BALDUR Joubert: we are a learning species..that's how we developed[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i like both but i think Pepsi might in fact have slightly better characteristics[13:31] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): I would classify my self as artist/scientist rather that scientist/artist so I would probably have to have the best looking product[13:31] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...Coca Cola has a better status than Pepsi...[13:31] herman Bergson: Good advertizing...:-)[13:31] Bejiita Imako: and i can differ between them in a blind test as well i think cause recognize the tastes[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes must be the case[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, you hear Coca Cola so much , it must be the best[13:32] druth Vlodovic: "The pepsi generation" is only good marketing until the next generation arrives lol[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hmm[13:32] herman Bergson: Well...they call it "BRANDING"[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: omg..give me some rum for acuba libre..[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i just think it is amazing that our brain shows it so simply[13:32] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): yes, akin to brainwashing[13:32] BALDUR Joubert: so i can digest this chat[13:32] Bejiita Imako: i however mostly get mad when they break tv show 5 th time in 15 minutes for the coca cola commercial[13:33] herman Bergson: We'll talk about that too Bejiita...[13:33] Bejiita Imako: "YES I KNOW COLA IS TASTY U DINT NEED TO TELL ME EVERY 15 MINUTES PUT ON THE FILM NOW"[13:33] herman Bergson: But indeed Gemma...our brain shows the effects of branding....[13:33] Bejiita Imako: cause i already know that[13:33] Bejiita Imako: one time before a film is ok but not 5 6 times in it[13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well it is a twist on the spider[13:34] herman Bergson: The brand is connected to many more braincells than just the striatum....the reward system part[13:34] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): one would drink more water and forget the soft drinks anyway LOL wonder if they have test the brain on those two[13:34] druth Vlodovic: hmm, what part of the brain responds positively to repetition?[13:34] herman Bergson: hypothalamus....[13:34] BALDUR Joubert: how come ari prefers bourbon to scotch?[13:35] herman Bergson: It is active when we perform long term memory storage...[13:35] Mick Nerido: I worked at an advertising agency, they are not a clever at brain washing as most people think[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:35] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): of cours liquor and the brain have a notorous relationship[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some are[13:35] herman Bergson: Mick…..advertising is still an "art"[13:36] herman Bergson: But keep in mind....[13:36] Mick Nerido: A black art?[13:36] herman Bergson: the neuromarketing costs a fortune to use...[13:36] herman Bergson: and it is only a developing issue in neuroscience...a new branch[13:37] herman Bergson: To give you an example.....[13:37] druth Vlodovic: so the hypothalamus must have a significant effect on the medial prefrontal cortex[13:37] Mick Nerido: explain neuomarketing please[13:37] herman Bergson: They work together Druth...[13:37] herman Bergson: Ok Mick...an example...[13:37] herman Bergson: A credit card company starts a campaign....[13:38] herman Bergson: Logo of the company on houses and billboards…traditional approach...[13:38] herman Bergson: then they showed people pictures of the creditcard held in a hand...in a certain situation...for instance in a shop[13:39] herman Bergson: what did the brain....[13:39] herman Bergson: It wasnt impressed by the logo pictures...[13:39] herman Bergson: But the hand held card in the image caused the brain to fire mirror neurons....the ones related to holding or grabbing something[13:40] herman Bergson: So such a picture has an observable effect on the brain activity[13:41] Mick Nerido: Yes true, that's why showing a sexy woman is so prevalent it advertising products[13:41] herman Bergson: Thence as an advertisement they suppose that it is more effective...[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes...but there is still one thing to answer....[13:41] herman Bergson: the process is way more complex...[13:42] herman Bergson: When I see that sexy lady next to that spartscard I dont stand up from my lazy chair and gonna buy that car[13:42] herman Bergson: There is a lot more to that...[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: we are not talking about the brain..but how one can manipulatethe brain..[13:42] BALDUR Joubert: that we know since 1933[13:42] herman Bergson: And they still don't know where the buy-button is located ^_^[13:42] Mick Nerido: No but your pleasure center now connects car sex[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Baldur.....[13:43] BALDUR Joubert: least my side[13:43] Bejiita Imako: if u buy this car u get lot of women who want to have sex with you sort of[13:43] herman Bergson: That is a critical question for the next lecture.....[13:43] herman Bergson: how far may we go peeking not our brain and for what reasons?[13:44] herman Bergson: If you like that prospect Bejiita go and buy that car ^_^[13:44] Mick Nerido: Heaven help us if we locate the buy neuron[13:44] Jerome Ronzales: auto-dictaded[13:44] BALDUR Joubert: smile of course manipulate means how someone else..something outside can manipulate.. how much is genetic..how MUC H mirror neurons..group behaviour etc[13:45] Bejiita Imako: heh the problem is that I don't work that way because the woman and the car is not connected to each other really[13:45] Bejiita Imako: the car is a mean of transportation for me thats it[13:45] herman Bergson: smiles[13:45] Bejiita Imako: to get from point 1 to 2[13:45] Mick Nerido: Subliminal advertising also works without our knowing it[13:45] Bejiita Imako: but sure nice if looks nice in design and have some power[13:46] herman Bergson: yes...and it caused a lot of upheaval.....[13:46] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): i think men and woman are really different in this matter[13:46] herman Bergson: was regarded as unethical[13:46] Mick Nerido: than there would be no exotic fast cars[13:47] BALDUR Joubert: mick..buy neuron..you find in survival gene.. he makes it[13:47] Bejiita Imako: and one think i can say about cars in general is most looikk like upside down thrash bins in wheels[13:47] herman Bergson: As you see......revealing the working of the brain...and the way the brain....or is it US ...leads to serious questions...[13:47] Bejiita Imako: they work but no interesting design ansd all look same[13:47] herman Bergson: We'll continue to play around with the brian for a while yet...:-)[13:47] herman Bergson: Such a remarkable machinery..[13:47] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): no women seems to to hit with the need for 'diamonds'[13:48] Bejiita Imako: eccept really expensive sport cars that only few can afford[13:48] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): ah yes Ari:))[13:48] Bejiita Imako: more design in general i want[13:48] Jerome Ronzales: nowadays the polution term of using the car is related to what ppl make sense of relating it to sex and the sexy girl posing ..[13:48] Mick Nerido: Diamonds are a ad success[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hmm most of those cars are gas guzzlers as well[13:49] Zinzi Serevi: yes maybe even more with a good looking man beside them[13:49] Mick Nerido: A diamond is forever[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehehe[13:49] herman Bergson: Well...next lecture we'll try to look at a few critical questions regarding this neuromarketing.....[13:49] Jerome Ronzales: cars aren't the pollution agents anymore but the dirty toughts ppl make, impel it to it[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥[13:49] herman Bergson: I think now it is time for the chocolate cake...:-)[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): yes![13:50] Aristotle von Doobie (aristotlevon.doobie): Thanks you Herman[13:50] Bejiita Imako: well this was really interesting again ㋡[13:50] herman Bergson: So thank you all for being here again…[13:50] Bejiita Imako: nice nice[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman :-) and ty class![13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡[13:50] Jerome Ronzales: very nice[13:50] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^[13:50] Anja Tigerfish: *^*^*^*^* Anja thinks that's *^*^*^*^*[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: smile enjoy your cake herman.. they say ch[13:50] Anja Tigerfish: SuperCrazyFunnyFantasticBombasticCooool[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman:))[13:50] Anja Tigerfish: *^*^*^*^*^* Ooww laaaaa *^*^*^*^*^*[13:50] Jerome Ronzales: thanks and sorry the late entrance[13:50] druth Vlodovic: thank you herman[13:50] Mick Nerido: sorry i was late[13:50] Anja Tigerfish: *-*rOfl*-*[13:50] Anja Tigerfish: *-*r0fl*-*[13:50] BALDUR Joubert: choclate makes one happy..:9[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Bravo! -- Cheers! - Applause![13:50] Ciska Riverstone: Interesting - thank you herman[13:50] Dewy Fall: Thanks herman :)
