386: The Utopia of the Free Market - Atlas Shrugged

In her Introduction to her book "Capitalism, the unknown Ideal (1666) Ayn Rand writes :"This book is addressed to the young—in years or in spirit— who are not afraid to know and are not ready to give up.

What they have to discover, what all the efforts of capitalism's enemies are frantically aimed at hiding, is the fact that capitalism is not merely the "practical," but the only moral system in history. (See Atlas Shrugged.) (…) This present book may help them. It is a nonfiction footnote to Atlas Shrugged."

This illustrates exactly how Ayn Rand influenced American economic thinking: primarily through her novels and especially "Atlas Shrugged".

The opening line of Atlas Shrugged is: "Who is John Galt?" It appears to be a kind of slang expression, which you use when you don't know what to say, somewhat like "Whatever!" But in Part III of Atlas Shrugged the question is answered….

Although the story is centered around Taggert Transcontinental Railways, the core of the story is this:

In the history to date the burden of the survival of humanity is always worn by 'Atlases', i.e. free, brilliant and creative producers. They made sure there was food for everyone, they taught their fellowmen to study nature rationally and to develop techniques to subject nature.

They made life getting better. Through the influence of mystics, priests and philosophers, these creative loners however, also were convinced that it is their responsibility and obligation to largely self efface for their fellow human beings whose needs should be central. (Rand's anti-altruism)

In the indeterminate age which Ayn Rand describes in her novel and which seems to lie not far into the future , one has largely accepted the idea of collective altruism. Outside America, in old Europe, one no longer believed already in production for the free market.

There are everywhere people's republics created in which the means of production are nationalized.This leads to disaster and misery. As the only remaining capitalist state in the world America must support and nurture Europeans.

But even this last bastion of the free market will perish for two reasons. In the first place the government in Washington with its socialist aspirations puts increasingly a heavy burden on the economy.

This all is regulated with strong support of the trade unions. There are increasing taxes and cartels (of which Rand was an ardent supporter) are prohibited. There are increasingly interventions in the free economy, because of which production decreases rapidly.

Secondly the demise of the free market takes place as more and more top industrials mysteriously disappear. With their disappearance disappears often their property too, the means of production destroyed. Oil wells are on fire, factories are sabotaged .

And if that was not bad enough, every time a large capitalist disappears without leaving too much direct damage, no one appears able to take over and continue operations. Any successor who takes over the holding, including the state-appointed managers, fails hopelessly.

The result is that the collapsing economy and society falls back to barbaric times of hunger and poverty.
There is no more heating, the trains break down, the food shipments from the west don't reach New York and other major cities in the East anymore.

Ayn Rand describes the downfall of America as a classic dystopia, which means the idea of a society in a repressive and controlled state, often under the guise of being utopian, as characterized in books like Brave New World or 1984.

At the same time secretly in a valley in the rugged mountains of Colorado, a new society is prepared, which will be the utopia of greed.

Here live the disappeared super-industrialists, bankers and the judge who absolutely wanted to maintain private property rights.

This valley, as they say themselves, is their Atlantis. In the world outside, these Atlases went out on strike and they reached something striking workers never achieved:

the civil clockwork has come to a stand still just by the hand the capitalists. When they go on strike the whole economy collapses.

In their own Atlantis now the residents indulge themselves fully in free market capitalism. Everyone produces,acts and competes with each other. Nothing is given out of engagement or friendship, everything must be earned by working or be paid for.

The super capitalists in Atlantis even love telling each other how much they compete with eachother and fleece the other. This is only good for production and wealth, which will grow rapidly in this way.

When the social collapse of the outside world finally is inescapable and the New Yorkers are in a desperate exodus of their city and attempt state to leave, the time has come for the people of Atlantis to save the world.

John Galt, their leader, who has worked hard to destroy the old world, says at the end of the novel and I quote:

"The road is cleared," said Galt. "We are going back to the world."
He raised his hand and over the desolate earth he traced in space the sign of the dollar.


The Discussion

[13:27] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:27] herman Bergson: shrugges ㋡
[13:27] Mistyowl Warrhol: LOL
[13:28] herman Bergson: The floor is yours if you have a question or remark
[13:28] oola Neruda: it is public knowledge that large corporations in the US have a lot of money but are refusing to hire now...
[13:28] Android Neox: The problem with capitalism as a moral system is that morality depends upon an assumption of some equality among people. Capitalism makes no such assumption and no compensation for the condition of one's birth.
[13:28] Android Neox: The survival and advancement of mankind is actually due to the cooperative labors of the masses… not supermen. All accomplishment and wealth is due, in part, to society. From The Radical Politics of Thomas Jefferson, "Give a man a continent and, without society, he cannot prosper. He may, with effort, survive. But, he cannot prosper."
[13:28] herman Bergson: hold on plz....
[13:29] herman Bergson: keep our rules, which are behind me to the left, in mind
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Android....
[13:30] oola Neruda: i feel they are manipulating the economy for political reasons
[13:30] herman Bergson: Cut you statement to nice pieces...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe we can discuss them then
[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh yes oola...large companies do...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Take the oil companies...
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Survival of the fittest...
[13:31] oola Neruda: deregulation is a battle cry
[13:31] herman Bergson: they come up with the excuse...trouble in the east...so prizes of gas go up
[13:31] oola Neruda: or the excuse... we want to see what interest rates are doing
[13:32] oola Neruda: that is wall street talk... money is the goal
[13:32] herman Bergson: Well oola..that is what we'll discuss in future lectures...
[13:32] Farv Hallison: They will manipulate the election by causing a financial collapse in October just before the election.
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: everything is money it seems, yourself as person have no value, your value is in how much money you got
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: that seems to be how they think
[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: Oil prices are set by speculators, oil companies don't want you to know that.
[13:32] herman Bergson: we live in a money economy at the moment, and that hasn't been the case all through hostory...
[13:33] Android Neox: The Republican party has made it clear that they would rather see America fail than Obama succeed.
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: That is one very true statement, android !!!
[13:33] Mert Dexing: We can demonize the big corporations, but it would be more fair to look at our laws. Companies are legally required to do whatever is legal to raise profits. Otherwise shareholders can sue them.
[13:33] herman Bergson: The that is a pretty desperate party Android...
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Mert...WE created this system of the money machine ourselves
[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: If we the people, allow them to get by with it, then who is really at fault.
[13:34] oola Neruda: it was ... my way or no way... had no thought for what people needed
[13:35] Android Neox: I don't think I can fit even a simple argument into 17 words, so I'll be off.
[13:35] Android Neox: thank you all
[13:35] oola Neruda: the propaganda machine...the spin doctors... make it all sound so nice...
[13:35] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:35] herman Bergson: oh dear...
[13:35] herman Bergson: I wouldn't have mind if he used 20 words
[13:35] herman Bergson: well..ok
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The number of lines depends on how wide your window is
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have to keep one thing in mind....
[13:36] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...
[13:36] Mistyowl Warrhol: So, did Ann predict the future or did ppl reading her book create it according to her words?
[13:36] herman Bergson: the last is true Misty....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Greenspan, Friedman, Hayek...the Chicago boys...
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: the capitalists saw an apologist for a moral system they could use to acquire wealth
[13:37] herman Bergson: Rand WAS really influential
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Druth something like that
[13:37] Farv Hallison: Allan Greenspan believed her and created the world in her image...then it collapsed.
[13:37] herman Bergson: exactly Farv..
[13:38] herman Bergson: But you know....
[13:38] oola Neruda: Greenspan is not either/or...there is a lot of grey area in him
[13:38] herman Bergson: Historically the biggest mistake was..
[13:38] druth Vlodovic: people who work only for their own interests aren't really loyal to a moral code or system
[13:38] herman Bergson: when in the 80s the communist economies collapsed...
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think I am supposed to know who Alan Greenspan is, but I dont
[13:39] oola Neruda: ended up head of the FED
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: Well, it does go back to the Christian Coalition.. which has nothing to do with Christians, but brought a gentleman by the name of Grover Norquist into the picture.
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): aah yes. talk1 I think
[13:39] herman Bergson: the capitalists slapped each other on their shoulders saying..didn't I tell you we were right!!!!
[13:39] Farv Hallison: Greenspan was chairman of the FED
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): when?
[13:39] Mick Nerido: It has not collapsed, it was adjusted down lol
[13:40] druth Vlodovic: communism suffered from the same problem our economy suffers from, rule by the self-interested
[13:40] herman Bergson: at least a wall collapsed Mick ^_^
[13:40] druth Vlodovic: once you can remove consideration fro others from your mind then any system can't survive you running it
[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think pure capitalism is as doomed to fail as pure socialism or communism.
[13:40] herman Bergson: But in a real different way Druth
[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): A balance is what's needed.
[13:41] herman Bergson: Here it was legit...there is wasn't, .but very one idid it
[13:41] Mick Nerido: China has an interesting mix of Capitalism and State control
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: So, what would be the ideal government?
[13:41] oola Neruda: philosopher king?
[13:41] herman Bergson: Let's wayt with that question for later Misty
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: technically it isn't supposed to be legit here either, they just adjust laws and such to continuously advantage themselves
[13:42] oola Neruda: yes druth
[13:42] Mistyowl Warrhol: "pouting" Ok.. LOL
[13:42] Farv Hallison: The problem is not state control, but control by multinational corporations…..they created the laws that they hid behind
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: i guess so
[13:43] oola Neruda: think superpac
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aa yes, the laws are made so they can use everyone for their own profits only
[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): points at Farv. What he said.
[13:43] herman Bergson: when a multinational 'threatens ' a government to raise gas prizes for instance...I think they do that
[13:43] Farv Hallison: they created the idea that the purpose of the state is to protect property
[13:43] Mistyowl Warrhol: The superpac is very much like what Ann predicted and it is life and well.
[13:44] druth Vlodovic: the problem as I see it is that the purpose of the system is no longer the good of the society, however you conceive it, but the advantage of a small few who do not feel dependent on that system
[13:44] Mick Nerido: Does any one here own stock in a corporation?
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: If i say like this, before companies and banks was for the customers
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: now we are for them instead
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the other way around
[13:44] herman Bergson: That is exactly the problem Druth
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: to fill their wallets
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: their
[13:45] herman Bergson: I am not sure but it was Rand who invented the expression "to make money"
[13:45] druth Vlodovic: the funniest thing is to meet a rich "anarchist" they simply assume that their power and welath is not dependent on the social-economic system that created it
[13:46] herman Bergson: so we live in a world where the highest goal is to make money
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes "born with silver spoon in the mouth"
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:47] Farv Hallison: If we are just material objects there is no external morality.
[13:47] oola Neruda: strange that a lot of "conservative christians"... whose goals i would expect to be alturistic... are republicans and tea party members...
[13:47] oola Neruda: it seems contradictory
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: they seem to think they are born with some special ability that make them wealthy and worh mych more then others because of that
[13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): or materialism is the morality
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: The greatest asset a company has it the loyalty of their employees.. when they lose that, they lose all in the end.
[13:47] Mert Dexing: You can blame that on the "prosperity gospel" Bejiita
[13:47] herman Bergson: Interesting observation oola
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hmm
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: I've seen companies deliberately attempt to break employees of their morale and loyalty
[13:48] oola Neruda: materialism:...this world is (not) my home
[13:48] Mert Dexing: It's an evangelical Christian belief that God gives wealth to his ardent followers
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: the more pressure you put on the employees the less they ask for,
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: also shit runs downhill ;-/
[13:48] oola Neruda: i disagree mert
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats nasty for sure
[13:48] oola Neruda: blessings do not have to mean wealth
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: heard such stories indeed
[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have heard that the lower workers suffer the most stress
[13:49] Mick Nerido: So companies fire the 10% lowest performers each year!
[13:49] Mistyowl Warrhol: Oola, makes a good point.. but it is not true Christians. it is greedy ones, who wrap themselves in a cloak of religion..
[13:49] Farv Hallison: water runs down hill, too.
[13:49] Mert Dexing: But, when it comes to super-wealthy Christians, it's how they interpret it
[13:49] oola Neruda: yes Mert...agree
[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Like 'Champagne Socialists' too
[13:50] herman Bergson: INteresting to bring in christianity combined with social politics....
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: indeed thats how they think
[13:50] herman Bergson: not a popular mix in the US I guess...
[13:50] herman Bergson: Can they spell the word Samaritan?
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: As the guy said, when they bring Religion into politics, it is never about religion.. it is all politics.
[13:51] oola Neruda: for some people... they make the economy the issue... for other people they talk about hot item controversial social issues...as if that is what they really were concerned with
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes religion is about mostly to gain yourself and create misery for the others
[13:51] herman Bergson: lol Bejiita!
[13:51] Farv Hallison: They waited in Colorado for the self-destructive people to kill themselves off, They survived
[13:51] herman Bergson (from dutch): Bejiita lol!
[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): People can bend religious beliefs to support anything
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: if not with war and killing so with greed
[13:51] Mick Nerido: God is on our side say the religious all over the world
[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think religion is about control.
[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Mick
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: religion is killing this world
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: everything spins out of control
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: religion is about human desire for spirituality corrupted into a political tool
[13:52] herman Bergson: If you recall my previous project you could put a big question mark by religion....
[13:52] herman Bergson: it is a social phenomenon...yes...
[13:52] Mistyowl Warrhol: I disagree.. it is not religion.. but the use of religion for evil means, that is the problem. :-)
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: the funny thing is that when it goes bad the "politicians" can just blame the spirituality they corrupted
[13:53] herman Bergson: of course it is Misty
[13:53] oola Neruda: Nietzsche did not like religion in general...but he had deep respect for the devout people who truely followed Christ's example and instruction
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes religion is one thing but where does the original scripts say we should just think about ourself
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: kill homosexuals
[13:53] oola Neruda: there are honest people out there trying to do the right thing
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and start bloody wars everywhere
[13:53] herman Bergson: yes oola....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i dont think either the bible or koran says that
[13:54] druth Vlodovic: it's there in various spots
[13:54] Mick Nerido: Jesus would be killed again if he reappeared, that is the sad lesson
[13:54] druth Vlodovic: god himself commonly engaged in genocide
[13:54] herman Bergson: well. my friends....
[13:54] herman Bergson: we stared with Atlas Shrugged....
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Jesus and the Old Testament are totally different things
[13:54] Mistyowl Warrhol: A true person of faith is too busy doing good.. those ppl are few and far between.
[13:54] oola Neruda: yes Merlin
[13:54] oola Neruda: totally different
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your enthousiastic participation.....
[13:55] Mick Nerido: Excellent class
[13:55] herman Bergson: this is only the third lecture in this series... ㋡
[13:55] druth Vlodovic: I wonder, how much nihilism is involved in the current trend to allow everything to go to hell except your own wealth
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: this gets more and more interesting
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:56] Mert Dexing: Thank you professor
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all
[13:56] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you!
[13:56] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): that's a lot to think about..
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: and one that is very involved. Please everyone, keep the USA in your thoughts. today is our Super Tues.. we see who is the Repu.. candiate for Prez. LOL
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: capitalists seeing themselves in ayn rands godlike "atlas'" lol
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all
[13:57] Mert Dexing: It was nice meeting everyone
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bejiita
[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Bye Bejita
[13:57] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC everyone. til next time :-)
[13:57] druth Vlodovic: cya all, have fun
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight everyone
[[13:58] herman Bergson: Well Mert?
[13:58] herman Bergson: What do you think?
[13:58] Mert Dexing: Well, I keep wondering if there isn't some merit to Rand
[13:59] Mert Dexing: Maybe there is a point where selfishness is good
[13:59] Mert Dexing: I'd like to say that is always isn't
[13:59] herman Bergson: you may not believe it...
[13:59] Mistyowl Warrhol: There is a difference is being selfish and taking care of self.. Hard lesson I had to learn.
[14:00] herman Bergson: but Rand is the auctor spiritualis of the present financial crisis...
[14:00] herman Bergson: Not s e personally....
[14:00] herman Bergson: but through her disciples like Greenspan, Friedman and Hayek
[14:00] Mert Dexing: Imagine though if we had a big-wig oil Tycoon here
[14:01] herman Bergson: Greenspan was FED president till 2006!
[14:01] Mert Dexing: Wouldn't he or she be able to offer some kind of compelling argument?

385: The Utopia of the Free Market - introducing Selfisness

When Ayn Rand wrote her book "Atlas Shrugged" she was convinced that Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses)

is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

This was what Descartes thought too, but like Rand he hadn't the faintest idea what the future would reveal about the human being and his brain.

They both had no idea about our insights in neurology, neurobiology, evolutionary psychology, neurophilosophy or the modern ideas about consciousness and the mind, as I have presented to you in my project "The Mystery of the Brain".

If according to Ayn Rand reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears, then there are a number of plain facts which contradict her interpretation of reality and the mind.

The most obvious error is her idea that reason is the basic means of survival. When I discussed the basic emotions like fear, joy, grief, anger, we learnt that these emotions were related to the amygdala and the limbic system in the brain.

Emotions that control our behavior and where reason is involved only afterwards. Yes we know the utopian individuals who don't know fear at all, because of their superb reason. The most famous one is probably Mr. Spock from Startrek.

Take for instance this quote from "Atlas Shrugged":
The door of the structure was a straight, (…). Above it, cut in the granite, as the only feature of the building's rectangular austerity, there stood an inscription:

I SWEAR BY MY LIFE AND MY LOVE OF IT THAT I WILL NEVER LIVE FOR THE SAKE OF ANOTHER MAN, NOR ASK ANOTHER MAN TO LIVE FOR MINE.
- end quote -

Ignoring any evolutionary or ethological counter evidence this is the conclusion of the Randian Reason: the moral good is to focus on rational self-interest. Logically, altruism is only the road to self destruction.

As Rand says in her book "The Virtue of Selfisness" (1961) : "Altruism declares that any action taken for the benefit of others is good, and any action taken for one’s own benefit is evil. Thus the beneficiary of an action is the only criterion of moral value—and so long as that beneficiary is anybody other than oneself, anything goes."(…)

"The Objectivist ethics holds that the actor must always be the beneficiary of his action and that man must act for his own rational self-interest. But his right to do so is de­rived from his nature as man and from the function of moral values in human life…"

A typical statement: "…his right to do so is de­rived from his nature as man.." What is the nature of man? Is it a biological organism interacting with its environment, guided by its brain,

or is possessing and using Reason the very nature of man, where this Reason comes to the conclusion, that to survive self-interest, is the only right thing to follow?

All major characters in "Atlas Shrugged" are convinced of this moral principle. When Hank Reardon, steel tycoon, was asked whether he made better steel for railroad tracks to help others to build safer railroads, his answer was "No!"

But then why? And he answered "To make money". What he creates (better steel),he only does for himself and it is his inalienable property.

That he supports society in doing this, is only because he creates employment and produces a good product for the market, but it never will be his goal to produce a product intended to contribute to society.

And this Randianist view of man combined with economics has lead to where we now stand: the main goal of companies is to make money, profit maximization, whether this is for the social good or not.

The immense fraud in the US with selling mortgages to people who eventually (and the financial experts knew it) wouldn't be able to pay, is just the beginning of many other examples.


The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you..... ㋡
[13:25] Farv Hallison: Thank you..... ㋡
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:25] Jaelle Faerye: Thanks Herman
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): This is becoming more interesting than it seemed at first when we talked about economics
[13:25] Sybyle Perdide: thank you
[13:26] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): thank you
[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you merlin....I hope to keep it up
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: another example is how they fool people with these sms loand that people for some reason don't see are so expensive they get just even more snared and that everything is just an evil lure
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that philosophy seems to be the leading stream of thinking for all businesses today
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: sms loans
[13:26] Mick Nerido: People are not born selfish, it is learned behavior?
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I did not like to interrupt but something came to me earlier
[13:26] herman Bergson: No Mick, people are not born selfish at all
[13:26] herman Bergson: People are born as social beings
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): remember that there was much more fraud in those mortgages .... signatures that were not the real thing
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sometimes when people act selflessly they can mess everything up
[13:27] herman Bergson: and yes...in the group you fight for your part of the game...
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: we know that primitive peoples are organized very social
[13:27] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Is that true Herman?
[13:27] herman Bergson: but it doesn't exclude that you are able to share
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Annie...that is a fact....
[13:28] herman Bergson: Even animals show altruistic behavior....
[13:28] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Its just that small children seem to have trouble sharing and have to be encouraged
[13:28] herman Bergson: that is behavior for which you get no reward...
[13:28] herman Bergson: you just do it for the other
[13:28] Mick Nerido: The Quakers are non competive society
[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: isn't it a kind of social Darwinism what Rand tells us?
[13:29] herman Bergson: No Lizzy..she misses the point there completely, I would say
[13:29] herman Bergson: Her view of man is completely outdated,
[13:30] herman Bergson: But her influence is still considerable
[13:30] Mick Nerido: Most games are competitive with winners and losers SL is not, perhaps a better game.
[13:30] herman Bergson: Rand has the simplistic idea that the human being is in essence a rational being
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but SL is not a game, games is about challenge, sl is a 3d social system id say
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:31] herman Bergson: For Rand all is controlled by reason and its method is logic....
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: to meet and have fun with others
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: then there are games inside sl
[13:31] herman Bergson: Just look at the financial markets today....
[13:32] herman Bergson: they behave irrational....just based on believes, expectations
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes id say that
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: short hand thinking to get quick money
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: no long therm at all
[13:32] herman Bergson: thus Rand's ideas demonstrate the Utopia of the Free Market
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Do you know about chain letters Herman?
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Merlin....
[13:33] herman Bergson: A trick as old as I am :-)
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think these economic scams are similar
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Something called Ponzy scheme
[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): not sure how its spelt
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes thet Pyramide construction....
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: also we have the pyramid games
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes, pyramid selling is another
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: the ones at the top get it all the rest nothing at all
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: or rather they loose money instead to the ones at the top
[13:35] herman Bergson: Just greed...no social meaning at all
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Chain letters would work if there was an infinite population
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: its terrible stuff indeed
[13:35] Farv Hallison: It is a trickle up scheme
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): the rely on endless expansion
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Economic Growth bothers me
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): but I am no economist
[13:36] Farv Hallison: our economy depends on endless expansion/
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes farv, that's what I think
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Farv...I am not an economist myself....
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and its impossible
[13:36] Mick Nerido: Remember the Tulip speculative bubble in Holland?
[13:36] herman Bergson: but I wonder....when does the growth end?
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): heard of that
[13:37] herman Bergson: Oh yes...17th century....
[13:37] herman Bergson: the first economic bubble ^_^
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: i see
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well, a song came out of it!
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: is that so?
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Tulips from Amsterdam :P
[13:37] Farv Hallison: growth stops when waste products poison the environment.
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehehe ok i see
[13:38] Mick Nerido: Speculation is a problem still
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: well yes tulips they are known for
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: speculate is not good really you need facts
[13:38] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example how the free market utopia works in this word....
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: or everything can go wrong
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but these gredy bastards seem not to realize that
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: take only the bank collapse 2008
[13:39] herman Bergson: just listen.....plz
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: the entire world stopped
[13:39] herman Bergson: Bejiita
[13:39] herman Bergson: Europe exports a lot of second rate chickenmeat to some african countries....
[13:39] herman Bergson: of course to make a good profit...
[13:40] herman Bergson: they dump it on their markets for low prices ruining the chicken farmers there...
[13:40] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Fowlplay
[13:40] herman Bergson: now...what to do....
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ooh
[13:40] Farv Hallison: haha
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes heard something abot something like that before as well
[13:40] herman Bergson: then the Secretary of the World Trade orginasation Paul Lamy says
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: or similar cases
[13:40] herman Bergson: says
[13:41] herman Bergson: they should make their farming more efficient and more specialized in stead of producing only for the local needs
[13:41] herman Bergson: in other words...
[13:42] herman Bergson: the local farmers who produce for the local market which is self sufficient have to tak eover our model of production....goal...not being self supproting…but making profits
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): idiot!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: Thus we ruin local economies....
[13:43] herman Bergson: We force our economic model...the self interest upon them
[13:43] herman Bergson: THAT is the free market...
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): misty
[13:44] Sybyle Perdide: hi Misty
[13:44] Mistyowl Warrhol: sorry ;-(
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hi Misty
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): missed the whole thing
[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: modern colonialism
[13:44] Mistyowl Warrhol: hugs all :-)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes I find it criminal...
[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Misty
[13:45] Farv Hallison: When industrialized farming can't make a profit they will stop growing food and there will be a world wide hunger.
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are many examples o
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): happening now also in the pharmacy industry
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): shortages of special meds
[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There was a satire on modern european economics and the financial bubble on Tuesday afternoon on BBC Radio4
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/radio/bbc_radio_four/20120228
[13:46] herman Bergson: That may be so Farv, but that doesnt mean they have to invade markets with low prize products disrupting the local economy
[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: I got in on the end, but as to farming.. All the good farm land has been used for urban areas. The land is dead now.
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: the medical companies only see to their own profits, that poor people cant afford it and therefore will die they give no care
[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: we have products from china here too
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): great example of rand
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: AIDS medicine for example
[13:47] Mick Nerido: have to go thanks Heman, everyone...
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ok mick
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡
[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Mick
[13:47] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Mick
[13:47] Farv Hallison: byre Mick
[13:47] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye Mick
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: By Mick, TC :-)
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy....like we import electric bikes form China,though it was invented in the Netherlands
[13:48] herman Bergson: Hard competition there...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: very hard
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: China is the big thing now it seems
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: but there are lot of probs
[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: and dentures as well
[13:48] Mistyowl Warrhol: And who help start the movement to the Chineses? Who can we blame for that?
[13:49] Farv Hallison: We have to prepare for our own local survival by growing our food locally.
[13:49] herman Bergson: what I wanted you to show today is that the basic ideas about man of Ayn Rand are completely outdated and beside the point...
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:49] herman Bergson: actually...utopian....she thinks that the real human being is a Mr.Spock, I guess ㋡
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: i agree, it is not reasonable
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe maybee
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Was Mr Spock selfish?
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: well unfortunatley star trek isn't real
[13:50] herman Bergson: OK...so far so good....
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): emotionless
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: its just one of the best sci fi ever made
[13:50] Farv Hallison: MrSpock was rational.
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Emotionless but not selfish
[13:50] herman Bergson: we'll move on in a next lecture to dismantle the utopia of the free market....
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: that can be interesting
[13:51] herman Bergson: and read your newspapers....search for the examples...
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:51] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Mr Spock could see the benefit in cooperation
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe well i se plenty every day in the news
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:51] Mistyowl Warrhol: The major agree on what is reasonable, but we bow to the power of the rich's version of reason. We need to take back the balance of power.
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: and nmost of them make me mad
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Annie...quite possible....but in Rand's view..sharing is the worst you can do
[13:51] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Yes and that is why she was wrong
[13:52] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): She didn't understand
[13:52] herman Bergson: no she didn't at all at that point....she missed evolutionary insight completely
[13:52] herman Bergson: she was stuck in the old philosophical traditions
[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you next week!
[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:53] herman Bergson: May Ithank you all for you participation.... ㋡
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: really interesting as always Herman
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:53] Mistyowl Warrhol: Hugs Gemma
[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i SHARE my appreciatiion
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[13:53] Mistyowl Warrhol: I can tell my missed a good lecture.
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, Bye every1
[13:54] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Merlin
[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: bye merlin
[13:54] Farv Hallison: and we missed you, MistyOwl.
[13:54] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Perhaps Michael Jordan could be brought in as an example?
[13:55] Farv Hallison: bye Lizzy, you have a nice butt.
[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: lol, ... byee Farv
[13:55] Mistyowl Warrhol: Ty Farv :)
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): When he started to be less selfish , his points tally went down but the Bulls won
[13:55] Sybyle Perdide: good bye
[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar) shrugs
[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: good byee
[13:55] Jaelle Faerye: Bye all
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: waves*
[13:56] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC everyone.. til next time.
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: Sorry for being late, Herman..

384: The Utopia of the Free Market ... Ayn Rand ethics

One of the most influential persons at the cradle of today's financial crisis is Allen Greenspan (1926), till 2006 president of the Fed, the Federal Reserve Bank, a powerful financial institution in the US and internationally.

He himself is not so convinced of his responsibility of the crisis. He prefers to blame 'human nature'. According to him it is a common fact that in times of prosperity people only want more and more.

The tenth commandment of christianity is "You shall not covet
your neighbor's goods.", which you could interpret as the advise, that you should control yourself, be content with what you possess and not be greedy.

In the book "Atlas Shrugged", in the creation of which Allen Greenspan played an important role, Ayn Rand turns the world upside down.

When she describes her utopia, her Atlantis, in her book "Atlas Shrugged", then chapter 2 in part III carries the title "The Utopia of Greed".

So, let's focus on Ayn Rand's philosophical ideas. She describes her philosophy of Objectivism thus:
1.Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

2.Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

3.Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

4.The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism.

In short is means 1. Metaphysics: Realism, 2. Epistemology: Reason, 3: Ethics: Self-interest and 4. Politics: Capitalism. Let's have a closer look at 'Reason'.

It sounds so obvious, that you are immediately inclined to say: sure... yes.. absolutely true. But let me ask you a simple question.... it says "reason is a means". We all will claim that we use our reason every day, but how does reason work? What kind of machinery is it?

"Philosopy: Who Needs It", pg 62: "Reason integrates man’s perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions, thus raising man’s knowledge from the perceptual level, which he shares with animals, to the conceptual level, which he alone can reach. The method which reason employs in this process is logic—and logic is the art of non-contradictory identification." Ayn Rand.

If this is a knowledge claim and I can't read it otherwise, I really have serious questions to ask, especially while Ayn Rand holds the view that we are born with an empty mind, a tabula rasa. All we know, we know by experience only. In other words..who sent her this revelation about reason?

Let us first put it into historical perspective. Historically we have two kinds of reason. The 17th century philosophers like Descartes saw Reason as opposed to Experience, while the philosophers of the Enlightenment saw Reason as opposed to Faith.

When we take an overall view of the work of Ayn Rand, her ardent condemnation of mysticism and religion, I would conclude that she uses the concept of reason in the way as the Enlightenment philosophers like D'Alembert and Voltaire did: reason as opposed to faith.

That doesn't bring us much further, but it is a start. The question I still want to see answered is, how can we have knowledge of the existence of reason?

In this form it becomes very clear that the question raises at least two highly disputable issues. First, it is far from immediately clear what reasoning is, on what occasion, in what activities or processes, reason is exercised.

And second, if we determine, probably with some degree of arbitrariness, what reasoning is (according to Rand it is "using logic"), it may very well be highly disputable whether this or that can or cannot be achieved by reasoning.

So, in the end, saying that reason is the only guide man has to survive is not clarifying the human condition that much. And if reason is opposed to faith I even encounter a paradox in Randianism, for you have to accept the truth of her philosophical axioms in good faith, which is against reason.

In my previous project I have shown, that reason is an overestimated faculty and that consciousness and our interaction with our environment for our survival is much more complex than the statement that there exists an objective world, which we understand by means of our reason.

A simplification, however, a simplification that is believed by many followers of Ayn Rand. Just google on this name or do a search with it in YouTube. Then you see, that it is still a current topic in the US.


The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you.....
[13:21] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:21] Merlin Saxondale: Herman
[13:21] herman Bergson: Merlin... ㋡
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: When we started this I thought you were in great a greememt with Rand, but now you seem less so.
[13:22] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:22] herman Bergson: I never have been in agreement with Rand Merlin....
[13:23] Merlin Saxondale: Oh OK. It was my first impression at the first talk
[13:23] herman Bergson: First of all....using words like reason giv ethe impression that you are talking about something distinct...
[13:23] Qwark Allen: what come to my mind when you talked about that "reason" definition, is that after all, it`s ruled the same way as "free will"
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes that can be true
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: seems related in a way
[13:24] Mick Nerido: Rand reason = common sense?
[13:24] Qwark Allen: somehow, feeling that reason and freewill are not on our side
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: cause its our will that make us eason
[13:24] Qwark Allen: like we have seen before
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: reason
[13:24] herman Bergson: in the previous project we have learnt how th ebrain wokrks....and that is definitely doesnt work only by using reason (whatever that may be)
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: at least in some way
[13:24] Qwark Allen: we are orientated to the reason , "others" want
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: if i say i have a reason for something its because my own will make me reason that way
[13:25] herman Bergson: Waht I want to make clear from the beginnning at least is that Rand's philosophy is begging the question
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: whan I want
[13:26] herman Bergson: she just defines her concepts as it suits her philosophicla interpretation of the human being
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: but reasoning is also about taking into conciderationn some ethic rules i think, is this om to do?
[13:26] herman Bergson: and his motives and drives
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: reason is also influenced by education, not only logic
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: to do
[13:26] Qwark Allen: its very cultural thing
[13:26] oola Neruda: i was struck by the phrase... not sacrifice others...which i see as counter to the rest of what she has said
[13:26] Mick Nerido: we are in agreement that there is an objective reality...
[13:27] Qwark Allen: and in our society ruled by mass media
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy, but we then first need a clear definition of reason....
[13:27] herman Bergson: We know that it is a brain function...even coming from which part...
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: aa yes we reason in a certain way cause we either have learned that it works this and that way and this and this is ok and that is not
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: thus reason must by very individual
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: however some people reason otherwise it seems
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is aninteresting point too Bejiita...
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Reason is one way of seeing that ojective world...
[13:28] herman Bergson: the generalization of the concept of Reason.....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: greedy people for ex reason only for their own cares and dont care all about others
13:28] Bejiita Imako: but they still reason that "its ok"
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: and sleep well at night
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: seems so
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita... ㋡
[13:29] herman Bergson: And they base their reasoning on the ideas of self-interest as developed by Ayn Rand
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that can very much be true
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: getting bad influences
[13:29] herman Bergson: And then say...well....this is just how an objective reality functions...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that affect their reasoning
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: in a bad way
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that greesiness is ok
[13:30] herman Bergson: I am a part of this objective reality as my reason is...so I am objective in what I do
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: greediness
[13:30] herman Bergson: no...we shouldn't use the word greediness anymore form now on...
[13:30] herman Bergson: we call it self-interest
[13:31] Mistyowl Warrhol: Think you had it right the first time, Bejiita. greesiness :)
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ehhee i was thinking the same
[13:31] Qwark Allen: sticks the same way to people
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehehe well they really are some greasy types some of those rich high ones up there
[13:31] Mistyowl Warrhol: Grease the hand, etc.
[13:31] herman Bergson: hello Clerisse ㋡
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: a big mess
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: big and sticky mess
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:32] Clerisse Beeswing: Hello Professor ! Sorry I am late
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Nations behave the same for their self interest
[13:32] herman Bergson: The main idea of Rand is that altruism is a horror, the biggest mistake mankind made ever
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes that as well
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: North Korea is an extreme example of that id say
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: really sad story
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: that need to be changed
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: read some article recently in the news about it
[13:33] Qwark Allen: i agree totally with Ayn in some things, and totaly disagree in other
[13:33] Qwark Allen: she had a really good vision what was about to society to become
[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Qwark....yes but not the way she dreamt it would go...
[13:34] Mick Nerido: In America there is the "frontier" mentality... rugged individualism
[13:34] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: it is fascinating that she has a logic concept
[13:34] herman Bergson: the current neoliberalism, the Tea Party ideas....
[13:34] herman Bergson: all aiming at destroying the welfare state...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:35] Mistyowl Warrhol: Reason is the process we use to take past experiences and knowledge with what feels good to us, to create a truth we think should apply to all. That is reasonable, unless you disagree with that 'reasonable" person.
[13:35] herman Bergson: destroying on what principle we used in the 60s.....solidarity as the leading principle of a society
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes might be
[13:35] Qwark Allen: seems every time more a utopia
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes unfortunatley
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: gets worse and worse instead
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: going in completely wrong direction
[13:36] herman Bergson: all privatization these days....all utopia of the working of the free market....!
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: really worrying
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: but solidarity is reasonable, isn't it?
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example....
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: in sweden they have ruined both the reailroads and the eldery care by privatizing them
[13:37] herman Bergson: We have notaries in the Netherlands....
[13:37] herman Bergson: They used to have fixed rates....
[13:37] herman Bergson: There was a TV program on how to make a good testament....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and now the old people die in their feces because the owner want to build a luxury house worth 6 million dollars
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: really nasty
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and the railroads here work worse and worse and get so expensive its cheaper to fly instead
[13:38] Merlin Saxondale: Someone said that before
[13:38] herman Bergson: the rates for that specific action ran from 215 euro to 690 euro....for the same action!
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: that's insane
[13:38] Qwark Allen: awesome
[13:38] herman Bergson: The rates are free note....free market...competition...you remember...
[13:38] herman Bergson: well...
[13:39] herman Bergson: the old fixed rat e for the action was 460 euro....
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes that's how it all works today
[13:39] herman Bergson: what happened....
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: Breaking news on CNN. maybe a little bit about what we are discussing.. "Dow closes over 13,000 for first time since 2008 after a 25-point gain on lower crude prices and strong consumer report." Speaking of greed.
[13:39] herman Bergson: within a week ALL notaries in the Netherlands charged 460 euro for the action...
[13:39] herman Bergson: thta is how this so called free market should work...
[13:40] herman Bergson: One big mistake....
[13:40] Merlin Saxondale: Do I need to know what notaries are?
[13:40] herman Bergson: Same with the dentists this year.....
[13:40] Qwark Allen: according to ayn rand the free market should have rules, and rulers
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes you cant just let it run away like it does today
[13:41] herman Bergson: these are layers...special kind who draw up testaments, mortgage contracts things like that
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: then the greedy ones take over and everything escalates
[13:41] Merlin Saxondale: ah ok ty
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: thats what we see today
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...take the dentists for instance....
[13:41] Qwark Allen: omg
[13:41] herman Bergson: They clal it an experiment...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: banks health care everything will soon be only for rich people and the poor will not survive, that seems the way they reason in general
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: that to survive you need lot of money
[13:42] herman Bergson: They had fixed rates...and this year they are free to set their rates...
[13:42] Zinzi Serevi: i have to go, thanks for the lecture Herman , bye bye all
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: money
[13:42] herman Bergson: Should stimulate competition...
[13:42] Mick Nerido: we could go back to the Feodal system lol
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ok ZInzi
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:42] herman Bergson: And you know what happened....all dentists increased their rates
[13:42] Beertje Beaumont: yesterday I heard that 30% !! of the households in the Netherlands can't pay their regular bills
[13:42] Qwark Allen: in a way we are at a feudal system, ruled by few organizations
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:43] Qwark Allen: no longer politics are in charge
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: the bosses of the organizations
[13:43] Qwark Allen: but lobbies
[13:43] Clerisse Beeswing: even in usa things cost
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: and now people come all to germany for the teeth
[13:43] Hagar: ellos
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy.... ㋡
[13:43] Merlin Saxondale: People were going to Hungary etc from UK for dentistry
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes dental ahd healthcare should logically be something for everyone but not today
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and
[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Now the Hungarian dentists have come here.
[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Mine is one!
[13:44] herman Bergson: So, I guess you see how important it is that we dismantle the Utopia of the Free Market....
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aa yes it has gone totally out of control
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: cause nothing to create ethic rules
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the bosses and directors decide
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: it becomes like a nuclear reactor with no control rods = KABOOOOOM!
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: and we can't trust the politicians
[13:45] Merlin Saxondale: lol
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: runaway
[13:45] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: oh yes Bejiita
[13:45] Qwark Allen: that is why i like ayn rand, and her vision, we should make the separation of state and economics
[13:45] herman Bergson: next lecture I'll elaborate on the third point of Rand's philosophy
[13:45] herman Bergson: 3.Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
[13:45] Qwark Allen: so politics are not on government for the economics
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: yeah. I missed that one as a child
[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: lol Merlin
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: Jesus's selflessness was the big thing then
[13:46] herman Bergson: The big debate is Keyensian against Neoliberalism or worse..the Tea Party ideas...
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: Not getting any arguments from me about the Tea Party.
[13:47] oola Neruda: with the super pacs funding campaigns now... i think that an elected post is "bought" by a rich few
[13:47] oola Neruda: who pull the strings of the ones they have funded
[13:47] Qwark Allen: off course
[13:47] herman Bergson: I'll show you that the way our society is organized is not an basolute...an obvious conclusion....
[13:47] herman Bergson: Economy has its own history too...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Our idea of making profit is only a 15o years old
[13:48] Mick Nerido: The world id flat...
[13:48] Qwark Allen: hehehe
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well Columbus showed us that the earth was round in 1492 ㋡
[13:49] Qwark Allen: vasco da gamma, was first in americas then colombo
[13:49] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:49] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: when you are living in this profit system you have to adapt or you will go down
[13:49] herman Bergson: ok...Next lecture on the ethics of Rand.....
[13:49] Mick Nerido: Flat econimically speaking :-00
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation ㋡
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: time will tell about anything else
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman
[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:50] Qwark Allen: i think the iranians want to flat the world in another way
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting :-)
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: Thanks professor
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: very interesting as always
[[13:50] Qwark Allen: very interesting
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu next time
[13:50] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:50] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Iran just wants to join the club
[13:51] Beertje Beaumont: thank you professor
[13:51] Qwark Allen: i think they want to flat the world
[13:51] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe no north korea is
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lets see how it goes this year
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: first Kim starves his own people then annihilate us all with nuclear weapons
[13:51] Qwark Allen: hehehehe
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hope that does NOT happen
[13:51] herman Bergson: yes exciting times Bejiita...
[13:51] Merlin Saxondale: Bye Herman and everyone
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: shudders
[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody
[13:52] Qwark Allen: yes, that will be the end of this class for sure
[13:52] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡

383: The Utopia of the Free Market NEW PROJECT

Today we start a new project with the title "The Utopia of the Free Market". Of course the current financial crisis makes the subject even more interesting.

However, something keeps itself hidden in a clever way by emphasizing especially the FINANCIAL aspect: we are not facing just a financial crisis, but a moral crisis.

"I am not a destroyer of companies, I am a liberator of companies. What it is all about, ladies and gentlemen, is that greed, for lack a better word, is good. Greed is legal. Greed works.

Greed clarifies, flows through and shapes the quintessence of evolution. Greed in all its forms, greed of life, money, love, knowledge, speeds up the progress of humanity."

These are the words of the notorious banker, Gordon Gekko in the movie Wallstreet (1987). How prophetic that movie was !!!

That we are dealing primarily with a moral crisis is clearly demonstrated by Greece. At the basis of its financial crisis is the general moral sense of responsibility with respect to their society.

They might kill me for this statement, but tax evasion and corruption in certain areas is in Greece such a common thing, it seems.

But there is more. One philosopher has been of great influence and stood at the cradle of the moral attitude, which has become such a common good among people, certainly people in finances: Ayn Rand.

Ayn Rand (1905 - 1982) was a Russian - American philosopher, who developed a very personal philosophy: Objectivism.

But mostly she was a successful novelist, who wrote the thickest utopia ever, I think: "Atlas Shrugged" (1957), about a 600 pages. I have read it in preparation of this project.

This book is the capitalist utopia in a nutshell. In Europe the book is hardly known. Just recently I saw a Dutch translation in the bookstore. Maybe because there is a movie now too.

However, according to a survey of American readers, published in Time magazine, "Atlas Shrugged" is the second most important book of the 20th century. Only the Bible was more important.

The indirect and worldwide influence of Ayn Rand is impressive. One important reason is, that her most dedicated philosophical disciple was Allan Greenspan (1926).

Till 2006 he was the president of the Fed, the American Federal Reserve Bank, of which the monetary politics in this globalizing world are felt everywhere.

In this project I will begin with investigating and analyzing the meaning of Rand's philosophy with respect to the capitalist utopia.

We'll have a look in the historical background of the free market ideology and we'll meet a number of philosopher, who can elaborate on that.

To give you names: Aristotle, Thomas More, John Locke and of course Adam Smith and Jeremy Bentham. Not to forger Marx, Durkheim and Keynes.

I'll end the project with an analysis of the question in what way and to what extend we actually made the free market utopia work.

Many people think, that the free market is an objective process that nobody has imagined or invented. Nobody seems to be responsible for the ideology and utopia behind it.

And that is what we are going to find out: who is responsible?

But you'll have to wait for a little while. From 16 to 26 February I'll enjoy a nice vacation in RL. So, next class will be February 28.


The Discussion

[13:19] Farv Hallison: Greenspan changed his mind about Any Rand...Her philosophy cause the financial collapse.
[13:19] herman Bergson: yes yes..Farv, a desillusion....

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:21] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That was short
[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remakrs...plzz go ahead
[13:21] Mick Nerido: Free Market= supply and demand Theory?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Funny you say that merlin....
[13:22] druth Vlodovic: you have my condolences on having read atlas shrugged
[13:22] Jaelle Faerye: Thank you Herman
[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes?
[13:22] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you Herman
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes because the lecture was as long as any other lecture...
[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: isn't the opposite of the free market an utopia too?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Druth..I KNOW what you mean....
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: wb Beertje
[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought they were usually about 20 minutes
[13:23] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you
[13:23] herman Bergson: the plot is ok, but what all these people say is a horror..
[13:23] herman Bergson: no..max 10
[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): aaah ok
[13:23] druth Vlodovic: I find it funny that people try to sell selfishness as a viable "moral"
[13:24] Farv Hallison: we take 10 minutes saying hello to each other.
[13:24] druth Vlodovic: I suspect they do it in order to cause their victims to accept what they do
[13:24] herman Bergson: Atlas Shrugged is only bearable from an intellctual point of view....
[13:24] herman Bergson: in the sense that you have to have read it...
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman, when you started off saying 'Greed is good' etc... Was that your view?
[13:24] herman Bergson: No Merlin it was a quote from the movie Wall Street
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): OK well I recognised that it was a quote
[13:25] herman Bergson: I accept that greed exists in us...
[13:25] Mistyowl Warrhol: I had it very clearly explained to me once, there is a big difference, in being selfish and taking care of self. When we are taking care of ourselves properly, that is good.. being selfish is not good.
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: greed is never good, just thinking about oneself cause of money
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and to get all for yourself
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: thats greed
[13:25] Jaelle Faerye: bye all, sorry have to go
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Jaelle
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: but thats how way too many thinks nowadays
[13:25] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): tot ziens jaelle
[13:26] Mick Nerido: Greed envy sloth etc all not good...
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Misty...big difference
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Pride
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol, thats another one
[13:26] druth Vlodovic: well, you don't want to go overboard into automatic martyrdom either
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I quite like Sloth myself :P
[13:27] herman Bergson: Sloth ???
[13:27] druth Vlodovic: but if you are to interact with others you should care for them at least a bit, in a society it is necessary to care for the society and it's members
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: very important
[13:27] Mick Nerido: Sloth=lazyness
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Somehow I think there is a bigger picture
[13:27] herman Bergson: Well Druth...and THAT is exactly the big problem at the moment...
[13:28] Mistyowl Warrhol: I am going to find myself not getting on one of my soap boxes, with this topic !!!!
[13:28] herman Bergson: Money isn't there to serve society...
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): the future of civilization
[13:28] herman Bergson: money is there to make more money
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: no its to serve only the ones who already have it seem nowadays
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: take banks for ex
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...
[13:29] Mick Nerido: power corrupts us...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: now we have to pay to even get our payout from work out at least for the ones not using the internet
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and everything goes down in the bank directors pocket
[13:29] herman Bergson: One of the complains here is that banks arent interested in their clients but only in their own interest..making money
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: before in time banks was for us, now we are for the banks instead
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: no good development at all and get worse and worse
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: the rich gets richer the poor poorer
[13:30] Mistyowl Warrhol: Come to the USA.. We can teach you about GREED.
[13:30] herman Bergson: You need a bonus, Bejiita ㋡
[13:30] druth Vlodovic: actually one of the problems is that the bank doesn't have any real existence, the CEOs of the bank make decisions in "their" own interests and the bank itself can go hang, often
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: haha id wand to steal those bonuses and give to everyone
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: like Robin Hood
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: we'd really need someone like that today
[13:31] Farv Hallison: Obama is Robin Hood
[13:31] herman Bergson: Welcome back Alaya ㋡
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hmm i think obama is a not so bad guy , kind of nice
[13:31] Farv Hallison: hello Alaya, kiss
[13:31] herman Bergson: That is why the republicans want to hang him, Farv
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: like his attitudes in general i think
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but not so involved in details
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman , have to go...
[13:31] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): hi^^
[13:31] JFA (janfolkert.alter) is Offline
[13:32] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye Mick
[13:32] Farv Hallison: bye Mick
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: cu Mick
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Apologis
[13:32] Mot Mann is Offline
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: I judge how well a politician by how fiercely the republican go after them.. So by that standard, Obama is a great Pres.
[13:33] oola Neruda: Obama IS good...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Good one Misty
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well....
[13:34] herman Bergson: I think we will study some basic Tea Party believes here in class ourselves...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and definitly much better then bush "world destroyer"
[13:34] herman Bergson: Ayn Rand will help us...
[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: Obama's sin is he supports the EPA, which seriously, will cut into the profits of the polluting.. er, bad guys.
[13:34] herman Bergson: just take the title of one of her books "The Virtue of Selfishness"
[13:35] herman Bergson: I guess we better leave American national politics outside this philosophy class ^_^
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: its a global problem and the middle classes have to pay everything
[13:35] druth Vlodovic: I'm still trying to work up the necessary lack of sense to read my copy :(
[13:36] druth Vlodovic: try to keep it "philosophical" :)
[13:36] herman Bergson: I guess you have a point there Lizzy...
[13:36] Mistyowl Warrhol: LOL you can talk about us, if you dont mind some blood shed !!!
[13:36] herman Bergson: Let's keep it philosophical ㋡
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: the divide between "middle" and "low" classes seems to me to be a divide and conquer tactic by the powers that be
[13:37] Farv Hallison: From Greek philosophy to Greek demostrations in the 21 Century.
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: the middle classes have more wealth but much less time, and much more to lose, so they can be controlled if isolated
[13:37] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): what is the philosophy behind free market ideology?
[13:37] herman Bergson: Well...one issue is indeed how to divide the wealth among the members of a society....
[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: (For those of you that do not know me well, I live less than 50 miles from what was known as the "Bush Ranch". I am a liberal in the heart of Tea Party country.
[13:38] herman Bergson: ssssstttt Misty.. !!!!!
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hehe
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hahah
[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: middle class is the only class who can pay, poor people can't pay and rich people save their money
[13:39] herman Bergson: I think we have a good subject for this project...
[13:39] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): i think that a bottle of milk is the same price for anybody
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: There is a difference in giving to others and assisting them.
[13:40] Farv Hallison: The tax code favors those in power by taxing them at a lower rate.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well my friends, a new project is born....
[13:41] oola Neruda whispers: i think we need to include the role of propaganda in the
[13:41] herman Bergson: And from what I hear in this discussion...
[13:41] oola Neruda: "selling" of the financial situation
[13:41] herman Bergson: it can be a lot of intellectual fun....
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: can be really interesting for sure
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: look forward to it
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: it will be exciting because we are all concerned actually
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): oh good. we usually go off-topic
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes exactly
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: It is not going to get boring, I dont think :-)
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: ah, I'd love to see an analysis done here on the effect of propaganda on people's thought processes, and their actions as part of a society
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok then...thank you all for this healty kick-off....
[13:42] oola Neruda: do we consider Ayn Rand propaganda?
[13:42] oola Neruda: nowdays?
[13:42] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): lol
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: have a nice vacation herman!
[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Druth that sounds like one for Thothica
[13:42] druth Vlodovic: you're very daring herman, i hope you survive the project :)
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Isn't it all simply like dogs with bones? Those dogs that have snatched the bones try and defend them as best they can. Those without try and steal off them.
[13:42] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): it is a old thing resurrected
[13:42] druth Vlodovic: I'll have to suggest it to sim :)
[13:43] Mistyowl Warrhol: Take care everyone.. I will bring bandaids and ointments for our next lecture :-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: I'll do my best Druth....!
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: i can say it gets my blood flowing for sure when i read about like here in sweden how the old people starve to death so that the owner of their care center can get a wealthy computer controlled home
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: when i read about that recently i really got mad
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: insane and this happens in sweden?
[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Something a bit like that in UK too
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: cause of a scandal company named carema
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes...the Free Market
[13:44] druth Vlodovic: it is a complete lack of proportion, the ability to assess costs to others is basic to morality
[13:44] herman Bergson: Our next target!
[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all!
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: they privaticed the elder care to them and it went a hell
[13:44] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): maybe it will turn into a flee market to pay depts
[13:44] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you Herman
[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Thanks Herman
[13:44] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): byby herman
[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you
[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aa have a good vacation now herman
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] Farv Hallison: Thank you Herman
[13:44] Mistyowl Warrhol: Well, in Texas, we just balanced our budget by withdrawing money from utility companies, from funds set aside to help seniors who could pay the bills..
[13:45] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: looks forward to this for sure
[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye everyone
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: and happy valentine
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: \o/
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: || Hoooo!
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: / \

382: The Mystery of the Brain concluded

After 115 lectures on the brain it is time to come to a conclusion and the extensive study,which this project required has led me to a conclusion indeed.

It all began September 2010 !!!! Then I said this:
"For me this is going to be a special project. It is not just an academic presentation of a subject with many different points of view possible. It will be a personal stand. I will stand for a materialist theory of mind.

This means that the series of lectures I have scheduled will be a kind of argumentation to make my point. However, it is not my intention that at the end of the semester you all have to say: yes you are right.

The lectures and the research for them will be more of a test, a searching for the answer whether the materialist view is tenable or not, to clarify the arguments in favor and against this view."

My view on materialism is no longer the same as it was in 1976 due to my lectures. Everything we know about the brain, consciousness is causally reducible to brain processes;

and for that reason I deny that the ontological irreducibility of consciousness implies that consciousness is something ‘over and above’, something distinct from, its neurobiological base.

No, causally speaking, there is nothing there, except the neurobiology, which has a higher level feature of consciousness.

In a similar way there is nothing in the car engine except molecules, which have such higher level features as the solidity of the cylinder block, the shape of the piston, the firing of the spark plug, etc.

‘Consciousness’ does not name a distinct, separate phenomenon, something over and above its neurobiological base, rather it names a state that the neurobiological system can be in.

Just as the shape of the piston and the solidity of the cylinder block are not something over and above the molecular phenomena,

but are rather states of the system of molecules, so the consciousness of the brain is not something over and above the neuronal phenomena, but rather a state that the neuronal system is in.

This is how John Searle (1932 - …) states his view and it is a better view then my support of the Identity Theory in 1976 as my graduation thesis, in which mental states were semantically reduced to material states.

I still stand by the view that materialism is the correct metaphysics today and that there does not exist anything else but matter.

Matter has higher level features and one of those features is consciousness. The most important scientific problem of the present era is one that until recently most scientists did not regard as a suitable topic for scientific investigation at all.

It is simply this: How exactly do brain processes cause consciousness? Given our present models of brain functioning, it would be an answer to the question. "How do lower level neuronal firings at the synaptic connection cause all of our subjective experiences!

In other words, consciousness is a natural biological phenomenon that does not fit comfortably into either of the traditional categories of mental and physical. It is caused by lower-level microprocesses in the brain and it is a feature of the brain at the higher macro levels.

I reject the view, that consciousness is something more than the neurological features of the brain like the property dualist does.

The property dualist means that in addition to all the neurobiological features of the brain, there is an extra, distinct, nonphysical feature of the brain;

whereas I mean that consciousness is a state the brain can be in, in the way that liquidity and solidity are states that water can be in.

This is the final lecture of The Mystery of the Brain project. For me it is not an endpoint, but, on the contrary, a real new startingpoint. I hope for you too.

The next project will be something totally different. The title is "The Utopia of the Free Market", the worldwide financial crisis from a philosophical perspective.



The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: brilliant!!
[13:21] Agnos (agnos): Thank you Herman
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: have been interesting
[13:22] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks..the floor is yours
[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:22] Loo Zeta: :)
[13:22] Blackrose (blackrose.baroque): thank you Herman:))
[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): free market oh boy
[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have a thought on it
[13:22] herman Bergson: Go ahead Merlin
[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): To me ... I can more easily accept there is something non-material about life itself, ...and biology
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: QWARKIEEEE
[13:23] Qwark Allen: ㋡ ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Helloooooo! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[13:23] Qwark Allen: Hey!
[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ☆*¨¨*:•.•:*¨* hallo hello hi holla *¨¨*:•.•:*¨*☆
[13:23] Qwark Allen: ;-)
[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): late guy
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes I know Merlin.....
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: just missed grand finale
[13:23] Jaelle Faerye: hi all, btw
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): taking lessons from you know who
[13:23] herman Bergson: this dualism is so deeply rooted in our culture...
[13:24] herman Bergson: It is everywhere...except in cognitive sciences and neurobiology...
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Do you think that idea is very similar to conventional Dualism?
[13:24] Sybyle Perdide: hello Jaelle hi Qwark
[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: is there really a contradiction?
[13:24] herman Bergson: in what sense Lizzy?
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: consciousness is a quality
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: and not a matter, right?
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): thats how I understand it too
[13:25] herman Bergson: yes...like liquidity is a feature of H2o molecules
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Im a bit uneasy about that
[13:26] herman Bergson: Just look at liquidity....
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: why shoudln't exist a non material about life despite
[13:26] herman Bergson: molecules in a certain state, the lower micro system, generate a feature in a higher system...
[13:27] Loo Zeta: But at zero it is frozen, so changes consistency
[13:27] herman Bergson: under other conditions the water could be solid....
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: yes cause the circumstances change
[13:27] Jarapanda Snook: given that the higher apes share 98% of our genes, their physical state is not unlike outs - would we regard them as conscious?
[13:27] Loo Zeta: yes
[13:27] Mistyowl Warrhol: Or vapor
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: and molecules slow and bind to each other forming a solid
[13:27] herman Bergson: we have physics to explain this all to us...
[13:27] herman Bergson: the problem with consciousness from this perspective is,
[13:28] Loo Zeta: Apes have been shown to have conscious states
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: different liquids have different points depending on how tightly molecules bind
[13:28] herman Bergson: that it is a huge scientific challenge to find out
[13:28] Loo Zeta: They carry round dead young until they can separate
[13:28] herman Bergson: how our neurons can generate that feature we call consciousness....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: oxygen and hydrogen by themselves have very low binding forces , take several 100 degrees below 0 c to get them liquid
[13:29] Sybyle Perdide: but even if you accept this physical model
[13:29] Sybyle Perdide: there are new mysteries within it
[13:29] Sybyle Perdide: so every snowflake has a different pattern
[13:29] herman Bergson: the basic idea is that it is a natural biological process that our brain generates consciousness....
[13:29] Sybyle Perdide: despite the same aggregate state
[13:29] Jarapanda Snook: but I would not attribute consciousness to a few billion water molecles - whatever you can say about their biding powers
[13:30] herman Bergson: I never observed any consciousness in snowflakes...
[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: lol
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:30] herman Bergson: I guess we better stick to biology here
[13:30] Sybyle Perdide: i never get liquid consciousness
[13:30] Loo Zeta: :D
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: cause no biochemical processes going on between water molecules
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: water is stable
[13:30] Jarapanda Snook: there is always a tendency to suspect something metaphysical, even though I am a scientist
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: nonreactive
[13:30] herman Bergson: depends on how much wine you drank Sybyle :-))
[13:30] Mistyowl Warrhol: can get liquid unconsciousness.. !
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Jara....I know the feeling..
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: that would be of there is bacteria in there but i dont thingc bacteria can feel anything
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: only single cells
[13:31] Mistyowl Warrhol: But the metaphysical, is that which has not been explained yet..
[13:32] Jarapanda Snook: so that is a paradox, then Herman? We cannot prove against the metaphysical
[13:32] herman Bergson: what do you mean Jara?
[13:32] herman Bergson: We can prove that dualists are wrong...
[13:33] herman Bergson: or at least lack the arguments to prove their case
[13:34] Jarapanda Snook: well - I see it as a paradox that we cannot prove scientifically any material link between consciousness and matter, but we suspect it to be the case, whereas we easily think there might be something of a higher power
[13:35] herman Bergson: Ahh…good point Jara....
[13:35] herman Bergson: The fact is that we observe the brain and what it does.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: there is no paradox here
[13:35] herman Bergson: It is just the fact that we simple don't know how those braincells fix it
[13:36] Jarapanda Snook: fair enough
[13:36] herman Bergson: and that is not so upsetting….
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Many people who believe in this higher power are illogical
[13:36] herman Bergson: neuroscience is hardly 30 years old at the level it is now
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very young
[13:36] herman Bergson: besides that....when you look behind me at the picture...
[13:37] Loo Zeta: Sometimes you have to accept the illogical
[13:37] herman Bergson: we are developing technology only this very days....
[13:37] herman Bergson: it is all so new...
[13:37] Jarapanda Snook: I don't believe in a higher power, don't get me wrong, but it is difficult to see how a bunch of neurons can make me self aware
[13:37] Mistyowl Warrhol: Just think what another 10 years can bring.
[13:38] herman Bergson: There is nothing illogical here, Loo, just the limitation of our knowledge of today in these matters
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Misty.....
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): This bunch of neurons is quite a big bunch
[13:38] herman Bergson: the development of neurosciences is going so fast these days....
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Look at the way digital data can express detail and subtlety
[13:39] Loo Zeta: I have melded science and faith for the last 30 odd years
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): And even text made up of discreet letters
[13:39] Jarapanda Snook: interesting, Loo - what branch of science?
[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes that stays an issue in our culture Loo
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: What if they can get the brain to heal itself like an infants.. well, not heal, but take over parts that are missing.
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): seems to convey an infinite complexity
[13:40] herman Bergson: That already happens Misty....
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): already doing that in a way misty
[13:40] Mistyowl Warrhol: in adults?
[13:40] herman Bergson: the brain is not a static grey mass but highly flexible and adaptive
[13:40] Jarapanda Snook: there are more possible combinations of synapses in the human brain than atoms in the universe
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes in adults too
[13:41] herman Bergson: Oh that might be true Jara....
[13:41] Loo Zeta: I have a degree in health science, studied psychology and sociology applied to biological science
[13:41] Loo Zeta: I am also a commited Christian ... *now ducks*
[13:41] herman Bergson: The brain is the most complex organ in the known universe
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: I have seen a infant with a quarter of his brain removed at 2 weeks, and the opposite had completely taken over those functions by the time I saw him at 18 mo.. Adults can do that?
[13:41] herman Bergson: dotn duck Loo
[13:41] Jarapanda Snook: don't duck - no-ones throwing bricks in here!
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehehe
[13:42] Loo Zeta: :)
[13:42] herman Bergson: The first one who dared I would ban immediately
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: throws a truckload of bricks
[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahaha
[13:42] herman Bergson: Behave Bejiita :-)
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:42] Mistyowl Warrhol: Looking for my snowballs, finding one big enough to hide a brick.
[13:42] Sybyle Perdide: we can use the bricks for a church
[13:42] Jarapanda Snook: but I find it interesting... I am an atheist, and the more science i have encountered over the years the more committed an atheist I become
[13:43] herman Bergson: Well Jara....
[13:43] Jarapanda Snook: to me religion is bout filling gaps in knowledge, and the more we learn the lees gaps we have
[13:44] herman Bergson: They once did a survey among the members of the Royal Academy of Science in England about the relation religion - science...
[13:44] Sybyle Perdide: are you sure, Jara
[13:44] Jarapanda Snook: and i bet they were all religious lol
[13:44] herman Bergson: only 3% said to be religious
[13:44] Jarapanda Snook: oh right
[13:44] Sybyle Perdide: the more I learn, the more gaps I am able to recognize
[13:44] herman Bergson: combined with scientific work
[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I see it more as a frontier than as gaps
[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): a boundary between the known and the unknown
[13:45] herman Bergson: Welll there is a tendency of religion bashing these days...
[13:45] herman Bergson: Dawkins, Harris...guys like that
[13:45] herman Bergson: I dont know.....
[13:45] Jarapanda Snook: what do they say about it ?
[13:46] Loo Zeta: I am a midwife every day I observe the miracle of birth, I understand the biomedical feedback of respiration etc
[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well some ppl do try to use religion to explain all the unknown stuff
[13:46] herman Bergson: I say about it that it is a bit arrogant....
[13:46] Loo Zeta: But sti it makes me cry at times, and I am an old cynic
[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: that's how i see it
[13:46] herman Bergson: as if we have all answers
[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: awww
[[13:46] herman Bergson: let me put it this way....
[13:46] herman Bergson: consciousness is a feature of the brain....
[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes herman, Im listening
[13:47] herman Bergson: those braincells do the trick....
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: I think most ppl will agree that are forces in the universe that create and destroy, I think we all believe in that, just call it different names. We still acknowledge those forces of "nature".
[13:47] herman Bergson: We have hardly any idea how they do it
[13:47] herman Bergson: That is only the brain....
[13:48] herman Bergson: what about the rest of the universe....do we know exactly all features
[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not yet and maybe never
[13:48] Jarapanda Snook: BUT herman - back to my original point - our brains are similar to a monkey's, but what makes us self aware to such an extent?
[13:48] herman Bergson: Like they look for higgs particles....
[13:48] Mistyowl Warrhol: Loo, anyone who has helped a new soul come into this life, will always have a diffrerent view of life in general.
[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Jara…I dont know...nobody knows....but it is a scientific and emperical question
[13:49] Loo Zeta: We have a far more developed frontal lobe, which contains personality and conciousness
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Loo, we know where we have put the stuff :-)
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and another thing why are humans the only species that have a language, all the other beings just have a single sound they can emit
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: a bit hard for them to communicate
[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Surely though, apes and other mammals have just as much perception as we do
[13:50] Loo Zeta: I was a Chrisian before midwifery .... but it is more when those souls are lost and we do not have answers we seek beyond ourselves
[13:50] herman Bergson: but how that prefrontal lobe makes us aware...we don't know...only THAT it makes us aware of things
[13:50] Jarapanda Snook: but the material of their brains is the same material as ours...
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: a lot of animals use "speak'.. such as whales.
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: dogs bark cats meow but that is like our language would contain one single letter
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: Hey Mick.
[13:50] Sybyle Perdide: hi Mick
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hi mick
[13:50] Mick Nerido: i got way laid
[13:50] Jarapanda Snook: Mick, you're late - very late ;-)
[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think you missed it
[13:50] herman Bergson: The same as our, you say, Jara....
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): another student of rodney
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: some animals can use different tone sequences at least
[13:51] herman Bergson: There is only one answer possible...
[13:51] herman Bergson: That can not be the case...for our brain produces consciousness in a very special way
[13:51] herman Bergson: So there must be something more...
[13:52] Jarapanda Snook: so there is something else..
[13:52] herman Bergson: something in which we differ from the chimpanse
[13:52] Jarapanda Snook: yep
[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh I don't think so
[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or any other animal
[13:52] herman Bergson: a scientific challenge, I would say
[13:52] Jarapanda Snook: is it just complexity?
[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): possibly
[13:52] Jarapanda Snook: or wiring?
[13:52] herman Bergson: I would say YES, Jara
[13:53] herman Bergson: both I guess
[13:53] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): We have better logic etc, but I think our perceptions are the same
[13:53] Loo Zeta: Our perceptions are built on schematic experience ours are more complex
[13:54] herman Bergson: just a simple fact.....
[13:54] herman Bergson: we include time in our perceptions...
[13:54] herman Bergson: past present and future....animals dont, I guess
[13:54] Mick Nerido: Feb 11 2011 issue of ScienceNews "Eye on I" consciousness under the lense intersting read
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I agree with that
[13:55] Loo Zeta: :)
[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): except that if you include time, is it still perception or does it become deduction etc
[13:55] Jarapanda Snook: how do you know that - I would think that a migrating whale must have some perception of time?
[13:56] Loo Zeta: Well Whales are far superior in many ways
[13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): their perception like birds is by the llight of the sun
[13:56] herman Bergson: Not neccessarily Jara...the whael just reacts on the temperatures of the ocean waters etc....
[13:56] Loo Zeta: magnetic ability
[13:56] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the sun
[13:56] herman Bergson: interacting with its environment triggers the impulses
[13:56] Loo Zeta: Sonar
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: aa yes some animals seem to be able to use the earth's magnetic field to oriendt like we use a compass
[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): noooo
[13:57] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:57] herman Bergson: pigeons...
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: they have a built in one or something
[13:57] Jarapanda Snook: if it were brain size alone that was the precursor if consciousness then Whales must be the first in line
[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman, what you say is applicable to lower animals but not higher ones like whales
[13:57] Blackrose (blackrose.baroque): our feelings of time are based on the sun too
[13:57] Loo Zeta: Men have bigger brains than women..... so no
[13:57] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:57] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:58] Loo Zeta: :)
[13:58] herman Bergson: ^_^
[13:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I suppose it is a sliding scale. shades of grey
[13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): dont get into that!!!
[13:58] Jarapanda Snook: HA!
[13:58] Mistyowl Warrhol: yep, leaving that one alone, yep, yep, yep
[13:58] herman Bergson: I think it is time to shut down my brain.....^_^
[13:58] Mick Nerido: Neanderthals had bigger brains then modern humans...
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): been there done that several times in this class!!!!!!!!!
[13:59] Loo Zeta: :D
[13:59] herman Bergson: So….thank you all for your participation....this was a great adventure
[13:59] Jarapanda Snook: if men have bigger brains - which bits are bigger?
[13:59] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:59] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:59] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:59] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Herman
[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:59] Jarapanda Snook: Thank You Herman
[13:59] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not suere i am looking forward to free market!!!!!!!!
[13:59] Mick Nerido: sorry to miss class
[13:59] herman Bergson: And I rest my case.....
[13:59] Blackrose (blackrose.baroque): thank you Herman:)
[13:59] Mistyowl Warrhol: Good discuss, much to ponder on :-)
[14:00] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[14:00] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for now
[14:00] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡
[14:00] Blackrose (blackrose.baroque): bye gemma
[14:00] Qwark Allen: glad i made it
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: aa cu
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: this have been great
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hope next theme will be as interesting
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: keep it up Herman
[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye class&herman :o) ......see you tuesday!! greetings to you, in the universe :-)
[14:01] Blackrose (blackrose.baroque): ducks....
[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[14:01] Loo Zeta: :D thanks again
[14:01] herman Bergson: Cant promise you anything Bejiita, but I think it is going to be fun ...next subject
[14:01] herman Bergson: We are all in it..in the crisis
[14:01] Blackrose (blackrose.baroque): bye all..have a goodnight
[14:02] Sybyle Perdide: bye rose
[14:02] Loo Zeta: Goodnight to you too
[14:02] Blackrose (blackrose.baroque): bye Herman
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: cu
[14:02] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Herman, and everyone
[14:02] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC everyone.. hugs till next time :)
[14:02] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin
[14:02] Jaelle Faerye: Bye all
[14:02] Bejiita Imako: cu soon
[14:03] Loo Zeta: Thanks all