394: The Utopia of the Free Market - Who is guilty?

My thesis for this project is, that the idea of the Free Market as a kind of natural process based on the rational actions of man, is a utopia.

I focused on the immense popularity of the novel "Altas Shrugged" (1957) by Ayn Rand as the description of a modern Utopia.

Did this novel cause the financial crises of today? Of course not, but the novel appealed to basic ideas and sentiments of American culture.

European culture lacks the attitudes to which "Atlas Shrugged" appeals. . This resulted in the fact, that Ayn Rand is an almost unknown novelist in Europe.

Yet Europe has to deal with the same financial crises as the US. So what is going on? In general you could interpret the situation thus.

Ronald Reagan, president of the US from 1981 to 1989 and Margaret Thatcher, prime minister of the UK from 1979 to 1990 have laid the foundations of the breakdown of the welfare state - that applies mainly to Europe - and an increased economic individualism.

Thatcher got her inspiration from her visits to the Institute of Economic Affairs, where she learned a lot of Friedrich Hayek, a top economist.

Hayek was concerned "with that condition of men in which coercion of some by others is reduced as much as is possible in society"

Or the miracles of the free market in Hayek's words, "The marvel is that in a case like that of a scarcity of one raw material, without an order being issued, without more than perhaps a handful of people knowing the cause,

tens of thousands of people whose identity could not be ascertained by months of investigation, are made to use the material or its products more sparingly; that is, they move in the right direction."

The idea of markets automatically channeling self-interest toward socially desirable ends is a central justification for the laissez-faire economic philosophy.

In alternative models, forces which were such as large-scale industry, finance, and advertising reduce its effectiveness however.

Economists who emphasize the distorting effects of these forces include Marx and Keynes. Thence a government has to interfere and regulate the market.

Keep in mind, that economists see the free market is some kind of natural process, which takes care of a fair distribution of supplies,

based on prices which are determined by supply and demand. And this all executed by the rational human being.

Thence Thatcher in the UK. Her political philosophy and economic policies emphasized deregulation (particularly of the financial sector like Reagan did), flexible labour markets,

the privatization of state-owned companies, and reducing the power and influence of trade unions. She became the face of the ideological movement opposing the welfare state based on Keynesian economics.

In other European countries this neoliberalism has stealthily, motivated by pragmatic steps, made a big push, like in the Netherlands.

So different from the US, where the "Atlas Shrugged" bravado was recognized and embraced by a large group as the answer to collectivism.

For, in essence, "Atlas Shrugged" derived its appeal from its anti-collectivism message and arguments of the economists against the communist planned economy.

It all boils down to two utopias: the collectivist Utopia and the capitalist Utopia. Symbolically November 9 1989 the capitalist Utopia won, when the Wall in Berlin went down.

And as a matter of fact, in the US people are fighting against a basic healthcare for every citizen and in Europe we are facing the decline of the welfare state in honor of privatization and the free market.

We really have to dig deeper into this issue to unmask our current Utopia and try to understand what economics really is about.


The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:20] herman Bergson: The floor is yours....
[13:20] herman Bergson: Well..if you have any questions or remarks of course ^_^
[13:21] Mick Nerido: supply and demand is the concept i an familiar with...
[13:21] Tessa Zalivstok: of course the missing element here is that Marx's Utopia impoverished whole continents
[13:21] Tessa Zalivstok: do you have a view on that herman?
[13:21] herman Bergson: Oh yes....
[13:21] herman Bergson: that utopia didn't work....
[13:22] Tessa Zalivstok: no
[13:22] herman Bergson: simple as that....
[13:22] Tessa Zalivstok: not just didn't work
[13:22] Tessa Zalivstok: failed spectacularly
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: do any utopias work?
[13:22] herman Bergson: we are social beings...but that doesn't mean we are collective beings like bees in a hive
[13:22] Mick Nerido: why did it fail?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...we are working on that....
[13:23] Tessa Zalivstok: you have to look at the most successful non Utopia in the world I think
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: for now to me utopia describes something perfect
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: like a perfect or ideal machine
[13:23] Tessa Zalivstok: the British Constitution
[13:23] Tessa Zalivstok: which isn't written
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and that is impossible, with no losses and so
[13:23] Trisk (triskelion): Human nature we are evolved selfish so collectivism was doomed to fail. The reality is that we all strive to get the most for ourselves out of the system.
[13:24] herman Bergson: yes Trisk....something in that direction....
[13:24] herman Bergson: But there is also something like solidarity in with the group
[13:24] Mick Nerido: The Chinese have a hybred communist capitalistic system
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: what does that mean herman?
[13:24] herman Bergson: so it doesn't necessarily be only getting out of the system everything for yourself
[13:25] Trisk (triskelion): As long as solidarity is actually perceived to benefit the individual yes.
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: perhaps this doesn't work in big groups like a nation
[13:25] oola Neruda: not everyone is after "self" there are people who care about others
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes oola....
[13:25] herman Bergson: Altruism is a special subject in this context....
[13:25] Tessa Zalivstok: could I get back to my question
[13:25] herman Bergson: yes Tessa…
[13:25] herman Bergson: repeat plz ㋡
[13:26] Tessa Zalivstok: do you have a view on the British constitution which has deluvered peaceful government for 400 years?
[13:26] Tessa Zalivstok: but which is unwritten
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: it has not Tessa
[13:26] oola Neruda: i do not see the british as all that peaceful
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: stable transitions of power with put insurrection
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: look what the english did in the colonies
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: where else has that happened?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Isn't the Magna Carta from 1265 or so the basis of the British constitution?
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: no
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: the basis of the British constitution is unwritten
[13:27] oola Neruda: divine right of kings... don't need a constitution
[13:27] herman Bergson: But we had Cromwell for instance...
[13:28] herman Bergson: The glorious Revolution next
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: it's the settlement after the civil war and the glorious revolution of 1699
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: yes
[13:28] Trisk (triskelion): The civil was brought an end to the divine right of kings to rule.
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: thats the point
[13:28] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:28] Trisk (triskelion): In Britain
[13:28] herman Bergson: I am not an historian....
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: after that they decided that they hated each other but that the alternatives were worse
[13:28] herman Bergson: But traditions are unwritten rules ...
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: complete pragmatism
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: maybe thats what we want
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: institutionalized warfare without guns
[13:29] herman Bergson: It only shows that we as social beings are really capable of something
[13:29] oola Neruda: look what they did to countries all over the world... "looking down" upon those whom they colonized
[13:29] oola Neruda: ghandi... did not do what he did for no reason
[13:30] Trisk (triskelion): A fine illustration of what I meant by the selfish nature of humanity
[13:30] herman Bergson: smile
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes oola...good point....
[13:30] Trisk (triskelion): Might makes right.
[13:30] herman Bergson: nice at home and bad abroad then
[13:31] herman Bergson: But our issue here is the utopia of the free market...
[13:31] herman Bergson: and in relation to that ...who caused it....
[13:31] Trisk (triskelion): It's large in history that those who can take from those who cannot. And surely this is the true agenda of the capitalist utopia?
[13:31] herman Bergson: and there I gave you two names...
[13:31] herman Bergson: Reagan and Thatcher
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry?
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: lost here
[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Neither were in power when it collapsed
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: what did Maggie and Ronnie do that was so wrong?
[13:32] herman Bergson: No Annie but they laid the foundations for the collapse
[13:32] oola Neruda: they were at the start of the mess.. rather than the end
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: other than get their countries out of mega ruts?
[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): No they inherited the mess
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: oh rubbish herman
[13:33] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): No one in England should forget the winter of discontent
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: tell me exactly what you'd have done to prevent this ?mess"
[13:33] Qwark Allen: nothing
[13:33] herman Bergson: The stimulate deregulation and privatization....gave the banks all freedom on the financial markets
[13:33] Qwark Allen: that was the purpose
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry?
[13:34] Trisk (triskelion): The free market is just a way of clearing the way for the exploitation of the many by the few. If you see it in this context you can understand why it does what it does. The privatization for example they ask them selves how can we make more money for ourselves and the plunder the nations resources.y
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: all I'm hearing here is slogans
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: can we get a little specific please?
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Trisk....
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: which regulation would you bring back
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: what effect would this have?
[13:35] oola Neruda: Tessa...what is your view of it
[13:35] Trisk (triskelion): Yes I have just lost my job because the government off the UK closed the public Forensic service and gave the business to its friends in private industry.
[13:35] Trisk (triskelion): Is that specific enough?
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: the absence if which regulations caused the "mess"
[13:35] herman Bergson: Well for instance all regulations that forbid banks to create derivates
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: why?
[13:35] Mick Nerido: after the 2nd WW the world economies diverged...
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: I want to hear why
[13:36] herman Bergson: regulations that forbid banks to sell mortgages to people that they KNOW, can not pay them in th elong rin
[13:36] Tessa Zalivstok: derivatives have been around forever
[13:36] Tessa Zalivstok: now we're getting specific
[13:36] herman Bergson: regulations that forbid banks to offer loans to people who can not repay them////
[13:36] Tessa Zalivstok: how would you determine who could pay?
[13:36] oola Neruda: Tesa... have you been following the problems of the economic collapse... as related to the banks
[13:37] Trisk (triskelion): Personal experience my bank actually told me to lie about my earnings to secure a mortgage.
[13:37] oola Neruda: it was more than just who could not pay
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: oh I worked in one for the period before the crisis
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: I know perfectly well about their regulation
[13:37] oola Neruda: there was a great deal of stuff going on that was under the radar
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: I happen to agree that they should separate things that financial institutions do
[13:37] oola Neruda: on wall st too
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: but banks have collapsed forever
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: I can give you a long list
[13:38] oola Neruda: they were not too big to fail ...in the past
[13:38] Mick Nerido: banks got too big
[13:38] herman Bergson: yes Tessa...
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: none of this is fundamental to the issue in hand
[13:38] herman Bergson: and now it is the taxpayer who keeps them standing....!
[13:38] herman Bergson: Oh it IS fundamental....
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: history tells us that bank collapses, systemic bank collapses, happen on average ecvery fifty years
[13:38] oola Neruda: TESSA WHAT DO YOU THINK... why do you question... what is it you would propose
[13:39] herman Bergson: for at the end it is us the taxpayer who pay the bill...
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: what I will say
[13:39] herman Bergson: We omnly are producing the money to keep the system going by our labor
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: generalizations about niceness and cooperation never make a financial system
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: before banks were for us now we are for the banks
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: wherever you live you need a financial system
[13:39] Mick Nerido: no one really knows how the economy really works lol
[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: some managers let collapse their bank to get tax money
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: otherwise your money stays in your sock
[13:40] oola Neruda: stocks collapsed too
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: which doesnt work all that well
[13:40] herman Bergson: Ok Tessa...I'll serve you well in the next lectures....
[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): At least I don't have to pay my sock fees to keep my money there.
[13:40] herman Bergson: there I'll discuss the concept of what a Financial System is
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: you can't have philosophy that ignores money and how it circulates
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aa or the classic one
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: it's an essential part of life
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: having the money in the mattress
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: good
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: I'd like to hear that
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well..this all sounds good....!
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: and I'd like to hear you discuss the non classical financial systems too
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: the Marxist one in particular
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: we had 90 odd years of that so it shouldn't be too difficult
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: and black money market, giggle
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: yes
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: black markets
[13:42] herman Bergson: well..I'll do my best but I am educated in philosophy and not economy Tessa....
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: very important
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: but my point is how can you talk philosophy of large systems without talking about money
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: Jesus Christ used denarii
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: he even spoke abut them
[13:43] oola Neruda: so far we have been trying to understand the rand philosophy
[13:43] herman Bergson: I have no problem to insert a series of lectures on money....
[13:43] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): He didn't like money lenders as I recall
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: nope
[13:43] oola Neruda: that was the impetus for the last number of lectures
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: drove em pout of the temple with whips
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: maybe thats an alternative.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: Indeed oola....
[13:44] herman Bergson: our primary subject was the philosophical antropology of Rand
[13:44] oola Neruda: and we have digressed in such a way as to ignore the subject that was intended for these lectures
[13:44] herman Bergson: and to what conclusions that would lead....
[13:45] herman Bergson: The basic idea is that at this moment GREED rules the waves
[13:45] oola Neruda: the world economy was not the subject... rand was the subject
[13:45] Qwark Allen: i think where both failed was about regulations! one with to much, the other with to few
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aaa
[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....THAT is my main target..... the role of governmental regulations in economics
[13:46] Qwark Allen: is there a way of balancing it?
[13:46] oola Neruda: that does not mean the world's financial systems are not important...they are...
[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes THAT is the question....
[13:46] herman Bergson: What we see today is that it is out of balance!
[13:46] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but you have to be specific
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aa yes the regulations seem a tricky subject for sure however without proper and in correct amount
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: the system wouldn't work
[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): tax the richest to help the poorest? Robin Hood
[13:46] oola Neruda: yes...specific to the subject of the lectures
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: I can tell you now that the financial system is regulated to death
[13:47] Qwark Allen: i know hermann, i understand the idea of reagan and thatcher! they were the ones that begin this neo economist regulations era
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: its so tricky, i don't get really how it works
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hard subject
[13:47] herman Bergson: exactly....
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: the compliance officer's role has gone from nothing 50nyears ago to whole departments
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: that seems to speak against the idea of no regulation of the system
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: so maybe it's specifics
[13:48] Qwark Allen: i think there should be a balance
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:48] Qwark Allen: regulated "free market"
[13:48] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:48] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:48] herman Bergson: What I try to find out Qwark...
[13:48] Velvet (velvet.braham): Unfortunately, in the USA, those who make laws & regulations are heavily influenced by the richest most powerful people & companies.
[13:48] herman Bergson: is how we can find this balance....
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: without regulation would be like tjernobyl = KABOOOM
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: and thats what we sort of see today
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: a runaway with no control and greed taking over
[13:48] oola Neruda: yes Velvet
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: not good
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well Velvet.....
[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): The fox is guarding the henhouse!
[13:49] herman Bergson: Robin Hood tax.....
[13:49] oola Neruda: with fine print
[13:49] herman Bergson: Let's think about that....
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: we need a new Robin Hood for sure
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:49] Mick Nerido: Markets change very quickly with computer running them
[13:49] herman Bergson: some person gets rich because he let's people work for him for low wages...and he takes all profits.
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes the "stock robots"
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: as they call them
[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): I nominate Bejiita to be our Robin Hood.
[13:50] herman Bergson: Agreed!
[13:50] herman Bergson: ♫♪♫♪ ♪♫♪♫ APPLAUSE ♪♫♪♫ ♫♪♫♪
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I have seen him with a bow and arrow; not sure that is such a good idea
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: id always wished I could do something indeed
[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): There's nothing wrong with a business owner profiting
[13:51] herman Bergson: Look at Apple and its Taiwanese factories where people work 18 hours a day or so for shameful wages...
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: getting tired of this unfair economic mess of today where a few takes everything from everyone else
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: want a more fair world
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: in general
[13:51] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....
[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): oh, Herman, that's opening a can of worms!
[13:51] herman Bergson: in essence it is about a fair sharing of recourses in this world
[13:52] Mick Nerido: a fair world, now that is a utopia!
[13:52] herman Bergson: hastely puts the lid on it again
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: unfortunatley seems so today :(
[13:52] Velvet (velvet.braham): and we're back on the topic of utopia!
[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: if you have a bigger risk and a better education why shoudn't you earn more money
[13:52] Velvet (velvet.braham): I agree, Lizzy
[13:52] herman Bergson: Exactly Velvet..>!!!!!
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: because everything have been going in wrong direction as far i know
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well, dear class...
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ahhh
[13:53] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!
[13:53] herman Bergson: we could go on for ever in our attempts to save the world....
[13:53] herman Bergson: Let's save some gunpowder for a next battle...:-)
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:53] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:53] herman Bergson: May I thank you all for this fantastic discussion....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: interesting for sure ㋡
[13:53] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: thanks herman
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ok cu next time

393: The Utopia of the Free Market - Ayn Rand

Who was this woman, Ayn Rand, whose ideas had and still have such an impact on minds of Americans, but, tho she already was dead, on economical and governmental ideas in Europe too later, for instance in the person of Margaret Thatcher.

Born (1905) and educated in Russia, Rand,born Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum, moved to the United States in 1926. She worked as a screenwriter in Hollywood and had a play produced on Broadway in 1935–1936.

After two initially unsuccessful early novels, she achieved fame with her 1943 novel The Fountainhead. In 1957, she published her best-known work, the philosophical novel Atlas Shrugged.

Afterward she turned to nonfiction to promote her philosophy, publishing her own magazines and releasing several collections of essays until her death in 1982.

She had two favorite philosophers: Aristotle and Nietzsche. The first one she admired because of his realism and his logic. The second had a great influence on her with his theory of the übermensch.

Especially because her view of man, as described in her novel "Atlas Shrugged", there had developed a myth around her person. However, by far she isn't the Dagny Taggert in the novel.

From Heller's biography on Rand we learn, that in 1926 Rand's relatives had supported her and lent her money to give her the opportunity to continue to Hollywood.

Not only Rand forgot to pay back her loans, but she also told the story about herself that she was the complete self-made woman.

This fit with her basic idea about man: "I will never live for the sake of another, nor ask another man to live for mine." So she never liked to say "Thank you for your help"

In 1951 Rand moved from Los Angeles to New York City, where she gathered a group of admirers around her. Her novel "The Fountainhead" (1943) had given her many fans and supporters.

Among these fans were Allen Greenspan and Nathan Blumenthal (later Nathaniel Branden) and his wife Barbara.

In 1954 Rand's close relationship with the much younger Nathaniel Branden turned into a romantic affair, with the consent of their spouses. Rand was married herself to Frank O'Connor. Watch the movie "The passion of Ayn Rand"

Her Objectivism got more and more the characteristics of a cult. She became the guru of her group and tolerated no contradiction. Members of the group who yet tried, were banned from the group.

Even her lover Branden, whom she owed in fact so much because of his organizational talent, was banned eventually in 1968, when he fell in love with a younger member of the group.

Although her work has been greatly ignored by the academic world, she promoted her Objectivist philosophy among other things by giving talks to students at institutions such as Yale University, Princeton University, Columbia University,Harvard University and MIT.

As a typical example of Randian thinking this: Despite her negative views about the morality of homosexuality, Rand took a much more tolerant view of the legal rights of homosexuals.

She endorsed rights that protect gays from discrimination by the government (such as apartheid), but rejected the right to be protected from discrimination in the private sector (such as employment discrimination).

The basis of this conclusion was not related to her feelings about homosexuality, but rather a product of her stand on property rights.

Rand supported the right of a private property owner to discriminate, even on a basis that she condemned as immoral, such as racism, and that any act of the government to change this would be an intrusion on individual rights.

And if you want to know how man and woman will live together in her Atlantis: Rand asserted that "the essence of femininity is hero worship — the desire to look up to man" and that "an ideal woman is a man-worshipper, and an ideal man is the highest symbol of mankind."

In other words, Rand felt that it was part of human nature for a psychologically healthy woman to want to be ruled in sexual matters by a man worthy of ruling her.

These are only details about the woman, Ayn Rand. YouTube, Google and dozens of other URLs can provide you with further information.


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours
[13:24] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If I crash its because I spilt tea on my keyboard
[13:25] herman Bergson: Thought so....:-))
[13:25] Mick Nerido: Why do u think she was so influential in America?
[13:25] herman Bergson: There are good reasons for that Mick...
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: herman
[13:25] herman Bergson: In the first place she was in Hollywood very active in the anti communist movements...
[13:26] herman Bergson: so she already played herself into the picture...
[13:26] herman Bergson: A second reason is that the adored capitalism....and individualism…are basic beliefs of US culture...
[13:27] herman Bergson: Like here ideas about homosexuality...
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought she had a good balance of freedom there
[13:27] herman Bergson: on the individual level you may discriminate as much as you like....NO government control there
[13:27] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): The people that followed her, slavishly in some cases were clever people; did she have great personal charisma? Its hard to see what drew people to her
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): YES
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: in germany she still is almost unknown
[13:27] herman Bergson: Good observation Annie.....
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): this tells us her background but not how she became so influential in economics beliefs
[13:28] herman Bergson: this is a tricky issue....
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): A couple who run a guest house in UK were not allowed to exclude homosexuals
[13:28] herman Bergson: She was Jewish...
[13:28] herman Bergson: and her most devoted followers were too
[13:28] herman Bergson: maybe that created a bond....a cultural heritage...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: maybe plays a part
[13:29] herman Bergson: She had ...maybe...charisma....
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -
[13:29] herman Bergson: but when you look at Youtube and see her in some clips...
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): +-
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -+
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -+
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): --+
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): +
[13:30] herman Bergson: to be honest....for me she is really scary...
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): LOL
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i wonder about her poor husband
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bashing my keyboard to get water out
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...he ended up with the bottle...
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:30] herman Bergson: He was jealous of Branden....
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): branden's wife had a lot to say after it all
[13:31] herman Bergson: That was not allowed according to Objectivism however...
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are clips of her too
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): discussing it all
[13:31] herman Bergson: But when Branden in 1964 started a relation with Patricia..so and so
[13:31] herman Bergson: which came to her knowledge only in 1968 Rand was jealous herself too...
[13:32] herman Bergson: In the preface of Capitalism:The unknown Ideal she added in 1970....There is no relation at all between me and Nathaniel Branden...or something like that
[13:33] herman Bergson: So..all together ..she was just a human being....a woman....who didn't come close to the ideal human beings she dreamed of in Atlas Shrugged
[13:33] Mick Nerido: Whatever we think of her she was a sucessful novelist
[13:34] herman Bergson: No doubt about that Mick...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: thats true
[13:34] herman Bergson: And influential too...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: very
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: good at influencing
[13:34] herman Bergson: And at this moment in history we have to harvest the results of her Utopian ideas about the free market
[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): Some harvest...…
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...indeed...
[13:35] Mick Nerido: be careful what you wish for...
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think part of her charisma was that her philosophy was so different than anyone else's in America at that time it caught the imagination of the public
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: which are as we can see not working so good in real world
[13:36] herman Bergson: So in the coming lectures I gonna try to disect this idea of the free market and maybe find some answers...alternatives....adjustements
[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): So where are the new utopian ideals - a panacea for our current global dead end?
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Debbbie...that is what we are facing....
[13:36] Mick Nerido: She fit well with America's anti Communist idiology
[13:37] herman Bergson: The believe in the working of capitalism has become so obvious, that we believe that it is a law of nature...
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i hope you are putting keynes in here too sometime
[13:37] herman Bergson: Oh yes Gemmma.....
[13:38] herman Bergson: That is what they have been doing since the 80s...Reagan Thatcher.....murdering Keynes
[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:38] herman Bergson: and in my country they are doing the same now
[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh boy
[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): But it seems to be a law against nature. Faster consumption through growth is never going to solve anything
[13:39] herman Bergson: No Debbie....
[13:39] herman Bergson: this is really about basic ideas of economy....and how a society has to sustain itself...
[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): I just wish there were some new leaders with some good ideas
[13:39] herman Bergson: I'll spend a lecture on that issue...
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Rod
[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes. ty.
[13:40] herman Bergson: I agree Debbie....
[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Lizzy
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hi Rod
[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Bejiita
[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hi Rod
[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Debbie
[13:40] herman Bergson: For the time being it seems we have to live with the fact that we as individual citizens are no longer human beings , but just costs...
[13:41] Rodney Handrick: wow...I tend to agree
[13:41] herman Bergson: the word welfare has disapeared...
[13:41] herman Bergson: social solidaritiry too....
[13:41] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Hasnt this always been so Hermann
[13:41] herman Bergson: it is the individual that deserves the bones....that is what counts
[13:41] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): No one worries about "little people"
[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Except to take a dollar off each ;)
[13:42] herman Bergson: After World War II people joined forces.....
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): the ones that slaved over the pyramids
[13:42] herman Bergson: they had the feeling that they had to rebuild their country together...
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): or were slaughtered by the Huns
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): always same
[13:43] herman Bergson: with the increase of wealth...in the 80s....money and profit maximation became the new goals
[13:43] herman Bergson: individual profit
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): War has the effect of drawing a society together
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...sometimes you here that remark...."We actually need a new war"....horrible....but it is said sometimes
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): especially with the current levels of population
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well the way war is these days it would not work
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we sit at home and the war is elsewhere
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Unless you are in it !
[13:45] herman Bergson: So From now on we'll analyze this utopia of the free market and try to find the places where the sun is shining
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we are!!! but not there
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Cool Herman.
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): just paying for it all
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): And all the guns
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....
[13:46] herman Bergson: And next stage might be that we all get a drone which we can control with our computer and send to the enemy ...
[13:46] Rodney Handrick: War is an industry
[13:46] herman Bergson: Every citizen his own drone...!!!!
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Via the sl network. Maybe we can all stay at home and get virtually rich?
[13:47] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:47] Rodney Handrick: If we didn't have war we wouldn't have the Internet
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol some do
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): anshe chung
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is a millionaire
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yep, some do ;)))
[13:47] herman Bergson: True to some extend Rodney....
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: would be like in some movie i saw before every citizen lived at home and carried all duties by a robot connected to him
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: Surrogates was the name of the movie
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: the real people never left their homes
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: but lay in a pod all day controlling the robot
[13:48] herman Bergson: Internet is a spin off of the DARPA net, but the universities were also already working on such a data exchange system
[13:48] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman!
[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well Im sitting on the southern tip of africa, at the same time that I am here....
[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: thats nice for sure
[13:48] herman Bergson: Cool Debbie....or actually ...warm :-)
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes... warm. Autumn is coming.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well...enough gunpowder for a next lecture I guess....
[13:49] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your vivid participation....
[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Hermna, great lecture. I love the chat afterwards.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: now i just have to do a little fun thing
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:50] Ayla (ayla.fang): thank you Herman
[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol Bejiita
[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hey bejita - it's the cat
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: doesnt work
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol i see
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: parcel too full
[[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): ;(
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cant fit any more prims in here it seems
[13:51] Lilitha Crystal: I've been on a prim diet
[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): ah too bad:))
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: would been fun to end with

392: The Utopia of the Free Market - Alan Greenspan

In the discussion after one of my previous lectures Beertje asked, how can it be possible that one single person can have such influence.

In fact this is a fundamental question regarding our way of interpreting history. There are several options. Let's assume that history is the sequence of past events.

Then what should we call an event, that shaped the world? A common approach is to look at the influence of great personalities, kings, presidents, men of state, scientists, etc.

Another approach could be to look at the ever changing material conditions and situation. For instance the Industrial revolution, the invention of the nuclear bomb, the improving healthcare, etc,

Or we could focus on the dominating ideas in some period: the French revolution, cartesian dualism, colonial political thinking, imperialism, liberalism, etc.

Whatever approach you choose, you always get only a partial explanation of the historical events. Nevertheless, among other things, it is human action which shapes our world, in other world, we can hold someone responsible for how our world looks like.

And in that case we could ask the question: suppose that Ronald Reagan would have appointed a solid conservative successor of Paul Volcker as President of the Federal Reserve Bank in 1987

in stead of a dedicated disciple of Ayn Rand, that is Alan Greenspan? Would there not have been a credit crisis then?

A tricky idea of course, but a fact is that the relation between Rand and Greenspan lasted till her dead in 1982.

And another fact is that Greenspan was absolutely convinced that there was no better economic system than capitalism

and in pure Randian style believed that if everybody only would pursue his own happiness or rational self-interest, the world would be a better place.

Economic ideas were favorable then. In the rising market after 1982 the idea that the fundamental purpose of a publicly owned business is to make money for its shareholders became a basic tenet of capitalist faith: profit maximization.

Most of the information we have about the intimate relation between Greenspan and Rand comes from his autobiography "The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World" (2007).

There he is very clear about the fact that he has his view of society largely due to Ayn Rand. When he was 26 he already became member of her group.

He became an enthusiastic supporter of Objectivism, that pleaded, as he writes himself, for " a capitalism with as less as possible state intervention as the ideal form of social organization".

In March 2008, Greenspan wrote an article for the Financial Times' Economists' Forum about the 2008-financial crisis. And there he still sticks to his unbalanced and immovable Randian ideological suppositions about global capitalism and free competitive markets.

He concluded: "It is important, indeed crucial, that any reforms in, and adjustments to, the structure of markets and regulation not inhibit our most reliable and effective safeguards against cumulative economic failure: market flexibility and open competition."

In Congressional testimony on October 23, 2008, Greenspan finally conceded error on regulation. The New York Times wrote, "a humbled Mr. Greenspan admitted

that he had put too much faith in the self-correcting power of free markets and had failed to anticipate the self-destructive power of wanton mortgage lending. ...

Mr. Greenspan refused to accept blame for the crisis but acknowledged that his belief in deregulation had been shaken."


The Discussion

[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡
[13:26] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...
[13:26] Tessa Zalivstok: Can I start herman?
[13:26] herman Bergson: Sure Tessa ㋡
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: I think you know that I have had issues with some of your analysis here
[13:27] herman Bergson: that is ok...I am not all wisdom of the world...
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: but I think you're closer to the money so to speak when you mention Greenspan and the GFC in the same sentence
[13:28] herman Bergson: GFC?
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: Greenspan was unquestionably responsible for a large part of the GFC
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh that is reassuring cos I don't know that either
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: but I question whether Rand had anything to do with it
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: well to believe some global financial crisis
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: well rand inspired Greenspan's awful ideas
[13:29] herman Bergson: Oh Rand had certainly an influence in his decision making..also after her death...
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): TLA's everywhere
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: at least to a big degree it seems
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: the GFC is largely a matter off Greenspan failing to do his job which was to protect the currency
[13:29] Mick Nerido: GFC?
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes but it was based on his absolute belief of a free market end open competition
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Global Financial Crisis I believe
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: and the methods he employed to allegedly prevent the economy from reacting to the fall in the market after the tech boom were quite orthodox
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: global financial crisis
[13:30] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[13:30] herman Bergson: Philosophically ...
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: I don't see that this has anything to do with Rand except in the nroadest sense
[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ooh dissent!
[13:31] herman Bergson: main point here is that Greenspan held believes that were based on the ideas of Rand
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: that's fair comment in the broad sense
[13:31] herman Bergson: Greenspan was a co -author of Atlas Shrugged...
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: but I don't think Rand has anything to say about sound currency
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: which is the real issue here
[13:31] herman Bergson: Rand and he worked two years on the speech of John Galt....
[13:32] herman Bergson: 70 pages long...
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Greenspan was a co -author of Atlas Shrugged...??
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: oh I don't deny that they were associates
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: eeeeee ok?
[13:32] herman Bergson: Greenspan was the dedicated Randian...
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: she called him the Undertaker
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: lol
[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: was Greenspan on it as well
[13:32] herman Bergson: No....that was in the beginning Tessa.
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but let's stick to the point
[13:33] herman Bergson: When Rand discovered his intellectual powers she changed the nickname
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: what did Ayn Rand say about sound currency
[13:33] Kell Babenco is offline.
[13:33] herman Bergson: He became The Sleeping giant
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: which was Greenspan's real job
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: nothing I think?
[13:33] herman Bergson: and it was she who was waking up the giant
[13:33] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) is online.
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: I dont think you can skip this point herman
[13:34] herman Bergson: Of course I dont know all details...
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: the Fed exists to protect the currency
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: Greensppan failed in this
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: the questionis was this because of something Rand said?
[13:34] herman Bergson: It was Greenspan that opposed measures against the mortgage bubble….
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: I don't think she had anything to say about this
[13:35] herman Bergson: He stated that the market would regulate itself...
[13:35] herman Bergson: that was his consistent policy
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no but her philosophy of economics influenced his to some extent
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but this begs the question of the integrity if the currency
[13:35] herman Bergson: to a large extend Gemma...
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:35] herman Bergson: Look at the picture...
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: no market can exist without a trusted medium of exchange
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: well to believe that something like that would self regulate is insane
[13:36] herman Bergson: Greenspan and Rand in the White House....
[13:36] Tessa Zalivstok: herman we all know this
[13:36] Mick Nerido: Mortages were to freely given, everyone thought that the prices of houses could only go up
[13:36] herman Bergson: what influence does that lady have on Greenspan?
[13:36] hannes Breda is online.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Why does he take her there and not his wife???
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): It wasn't that sort of party?
[13:36] Mick Nerido: The WFC is the correction
[13:37] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): sorry i have to go...
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: and I say that she had nothing to say
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: the question is what did Rand actually have to say about the issue that was a major cause of the GFC'
[13:37] herman Bergson: His view of society was due to Ayn Rand completely....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes and then the entire world stopped
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: POOFF
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but not his view of the currency
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: that was rather orthodox
[13:37] herman Bergson: No…Tessa Rand was dead already...1982....
[13:37] Mick Nerido: But it had to stop somewhere it was a bubble
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: now if you said that Friedman influenced his thinking I'd listen carefully
[13:38] herman Bergson: But the brain of Greenspan was filled with her ideas about how society had to be
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: if its a bubble you should always hit the brake
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and then its a dangerous situation
[13:38] Mick Nerido: hindsight is always better than foresight
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: now Friedman wrote extensively in these things
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: liberty
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: markets
[13:39] herman Bergson: Rand, Greenspan, Hayek, Friedman....all are at the roots of our present economic situation
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: he unquestionably influenced Greenspan in the matters that were important
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: you see you're running round the point
[13:39] herman Bergson: But let me put all in perspective....
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: the real point here is the currency
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: take Hayek
[13:40] herman Bergson: The thesis I am defending is that the Idea of a free market is a Utopia...
[13:40] Mick Nerido: how should he have protected the currency?
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: he held very similar ideas to Rand on many matters
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I find all this a bit difficult because I do not have the wider knowledge of it all
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: but he believed firmly that the currency should be protected
[13:40] herman Bergson: and that this Utopia was described by Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: Friedman had different ideas and I believe that it was Friedman who greenspan followed
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: not Rand
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: this is important
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and as we know an utopia can never happen its an impossible dream and so the free market cant work in a real world
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Tessa...those are details I would say....
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Tessa sounds as if she knows what she is talking about
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: but critical details
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yet we have it
[13:42] herman Bergson: They all believed in the wonders of the Free Market and the ratioanl huamn being who would handle it
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: you can't blame Rand for the crisis
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: smiles...
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: she had absolutely nothing to say about the things that caused it
[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I feel some need to understand why Tessa is defending Rand so much
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think it is her influence he is blaming
[13:42] herman Bergson: No....she had no economic or political power at all.
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but she had scary ideas that influenced Greenspan
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: if you want to look for somebody on that side of economic philosophy to blame my choice would be Friedman
[13:43] herman Bergson: But with Atlas Shrugged she influenced people who were in power!
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: she probalby didn't know about her influence
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: sure but not about that
[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and he was also influenced by her
[13:43] herman Bergson: people who were evening after evening debating these issues with her
[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): friedman that is
[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I still have my doubts as Herman says were also expressed by Beertje, that one person can influence so much
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: I guess Friedman might have read her
[13:43] herman Bergson: It makes little sense to talk about blaming someone...
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: he wasnt close to her like Greenspan was
[13:44] herman Bergson: It is a matter of what caused what...
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: well
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: if you want to choose people
[13:44] herman Bergson: History isn't about blaming people for whatever...
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: I would choose Bush, Greenspan, saddam hussein and Zhou Xiaochuan
[13:44] herman Bergson: It is about pointing out who is responsible for what
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: Rand was a theorist and Greenspan moved her ideas to reality
[13:45] Tessa Zalivstok: and I forgot Usama bin Laden
[13:45] herman Bergson: and when talking about responsibility...recall what I said...
[13:46] herman Bergson: on the one hand you have historical personalities...
[13:46] herman Bergson: but they are meaningless when material situations and a world of ideas do not fit together....
[13:46] herman Bergson: Like Assad in Syria....
[13:47] herman Bergson: it is not only that single man who causes what is happening there...
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: a bloody masacre
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: terrible
[13:47] Mick Nerido: The military Industrial complex is most to blame...
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): and over consumption
[13:48] Mick Nerido: The over production of arms...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes Mick..there are groups in that country that see their interests threatened and thus support Assad...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Our general mistake with history is that we are educated to believe that this or that leader did it all..
[13:49] herman Bergson: In Syria..there are tribes....
[13:49] herman Bergson: religious groups, which are opposing each other...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Like in Afganistan...
[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Ugh go away world
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Have to go thanks all
[13:50] herman Bergson: So Greenspan never could have done what he did if there hadn't been a group around him who agreed with him...
[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Mick
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye Mick
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ok bye then mick
[13:51] herman Bergson: Nor could the ideas of Rand in Atlas Shrugged have become a bestseller int the US if not the US 'mind' was open to that way of thinking
[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well exactly!
[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That is the point about the influence of a single person
[13:52] herman Bergson: Atlas Shrugged got bad reviews...and Greenspan wrote a defense
[13:53] herman Bergson: The free market idea in healthcare....
[13:53] herman Bergson: In my country all hospitals had to be privatized...
[13:54] herman Bergson: That would stimulate competition and increase of quality of care....
[13:54] herman Bergson: The result is disastrous...
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *looks to see who is still here
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: the results are rather
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: the rich should live the poor should die
[13:54] herman Bergson: PriPrizes gort up only....
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: really awful that something like this can have happened
[13:55] herman Bergson: Prizes got up only
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: see same things here too
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: really scary
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: it says it self that free market only give rise to own profit with no care of the service it self
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: its only money money in my own pocket
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: for the boss
[13:56] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): So will we discuss if there is a viable alternative at a future class?
[13:56] herman Bergson: Well so much on the utopia of the free market for today , I would say...
[13:56] herman Bergson: Oh Yes Annie...
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all for you vivid participation...
[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[13:57] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you Herman
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you for this lesson Herman
[13:57] Tessa Zalivstok: thanks herman
[13:57] herman Bergson: We are not done at all LIzzy....^_^
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: tnx Herman
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:58] herman Bergson: So more to come...
[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): thenks hermen, and all of you. I will be back for the next class..
[13:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) is online.
[13:59] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody
[13:59] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Night Lizzy
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: cu all
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:59] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Goodnight all
[13:59] herman Bergson: by eBejiita
[13:59] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye

391: The Utopia of the Free Market - The End of Rand

Take the following two core statements of Ayn Rand's philosophy:

1. Reason, the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses, is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

2. “the actor must always be the beneficiary of his action and that man must act for his own rational self-interest.”

Those, who have attended my project "The Mystery of the Brain" , will conclude immediately, that even from a scientific point of view statement number 1 is old-fashioned and completely out-dated philosophy, even a factual error.

The second statement immediately raises the question: where does this "MUST" come from? What kind of "must" is it? Does it mean "have to" or "ought"?

In both cases we need an reasoning. Is it deduced from the scientific knowledge about the homo sapiens, from evolutionary biology, from neurobiological data?

Rand claims that reality is absolute. What ever it may mean, this reality refutes statement 2 too, because nature offers us dozens of examples of altruistic behavior among animals.

Jorge Moll and Jordan Grafman (2006), neuroscientists at the National Institutes of Health and LABS-D'Or Hospital Network (J.M.) provided the first evidence for the neural bases of altruistic giving in normal healthy volunteers.

When volunteers generously placed the interests of others before their own by making charitable donations, another brain circuit was selectively activated: the subgenual cortex/septal region.

These structures are intimately related to social attachment and bonding in other species. Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain, hard-wired and pleasurable.

That doesn't mean that we are all altruistic saints by nature. It isn't without reason, that Rand so easily can appeal to the idea of selfishness and even can call is a virtue.

Psychological egoism is the thesis that we are always deep down motivated by what we perceive to be in our own self-interest.

Psychological altruism, on the other hand, is the view that sometimes we can have ultimately altruistic motives.

Suppose, for example, that Pam saves Jim from a burning office building. What ultimately motivated her to do this? It would be odd to suggest that it’s ultimately her own benefit that Pam is seeking.

After all, she’s risking her own life in the process. But the psychological egoist holds that Pam’s apparently altruistic act is ultimately motivated by the goal to benefit herself, whether she is aware of this or not.

Pam might have wanted to gain a good feeling from being a hero, or to avoid social reprimand that would follow had she not helped Jim, or something along these lines.

The story of psychological egoism is rather peculiar. Though it is often discussed, it hasn’t been explicitly held by many major figures in the history of philosophy. It is most often attributed to only Thomas Hobbes (1651) and Jeremy Bentham (1781).

Psychological egoism makes a stronger, universal claim that all of our ultimate desires are egoistic, while psychological altruism merely makes the weaker claim that some of our ultimate desires are altruistic.

Thus, the former is a monistic thesis, while the latter is a pluralistic thesis. Consequently, psychological egoism is easier to refute than the opposing view. And neurobiological evidence points in the direction, that behavior is not only controlled by the pleasure centers in the brain.

Ayn Rand gave the world with "Atlas Shrugged" its modern utopia of the free market. It was adopted with open arms by the financial world and the political world started privatization of what had long been services of the government.

So far the results are disastrous. People have become homeless. Taxpayers finance the banks to prevent them from collapsing, which could make thing even worse.

Those in society who do not fit the Randian model of man as the creative, productive and independent individual, that acts only based on reason,

so the sick, the poor, the mentally or physically handicapped, or just the less gifted people, the elderly, are the first victims of the utopia of the free market.

Therefore let me go on showing that this utopia of the free market is a Randian ideology, which is only in the interest of certain groups in our society.

And don't tell me that less government is certainly better and a step forward to a better world. The tremendous economic growth of China is completely government controlled.

And most Scandinavian countries have way more public expenditure than the rest of Europe, are prosperous and laugh at the Euro crisis.


The Discusion

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right! on the government involvement
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: its an interesting subject for sure
[13:29] Mick Nerido: Its ironic the "Free Market" is anything bur "Free!"
[13:29] Farv Hallison: we need a fair market/.
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is a website of ayn rand in case you would like to listen to her defend some of her philosophy
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: its really crazy really that one author with a completely screwed up mind can wreck so much damage on the entire world
[13:30] herman Bergson: The right term Farv...a FAIR market...
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in her own voice
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that one single person can do so much damage
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): which seems to b e bigger than she was
[13:31] Farv Hallison: but how do we know what FAIR is?
[13:31] herman Bergson: That is the whole issue of politics Farv....what is FAIR....
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: every political party has an own imagination about FAIR
[13:32] herman Bergson: Oh yes Lizzy....
[13:32] herman Bergson: Just look at the Tea Party ideas in the US...or the extreme right wing in Europe...
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aa
[13:33] Farv Hallison: Ayn Rand thought there was no reason to be fair because we are only material objects. The only morality is survival of the fittest.
[13:33] herman Bergson: they even cant spell the word "sharing"
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: the rights are controlling sweden at the moment and made a hell for unemployed people
[13:33] herman Bergson: There she was a clumsy ignorant Farv....
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: take from the poor give to the rich
[13:33] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Herman can you please give a few examples of animal altruism.
[13:34] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Farve, that is the exact opposite of what she believed; she thought that man was a spiritual being, and that fairness only came to play if all there was was material objects to distribute
[13:34] herman Bergson: Oh plenty....
[13:34] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): And she would admit to animal altuism; she was concerned with life qua human.
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: we know it from primitive people as well
[13:35] herman Bergson: That was her fundamental error Huntress....
[13:35] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I am more interested in concrete examples
[13:35] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): To be concerned with life qua human?
[13:35] herman Bergson: She overlooked the fact that evolutionary we are as much an animal as all other animals on this planet
[13:35] herman Bergson: Real examples...
[13:35] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): So would you deny that here is human consciousness and rational activity of the soul?
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bees are altruistic
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): They are?
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ants more so
[13:36] herman Bergson: One moment all..I want to answer Annie
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): They are?
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I have yet to see a bee or ant help an old lady across the road
[13:36] herman Bergson: Type Altruism in Wikipedia as search term....
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Certainly regarding their reproduction
[13:36] herman Bergson: there is a lemma Animal altruism….
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: 'hehe but maybe they help themselves a lot
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and yeah, ants are related to bees
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: a bee hive is like a collective
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: I suspect that animals have consciousness and varying degrees of rationality
[13:37] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Each Bee or Ant is related with a nest
[13:37] herman Bergson: Even some ants are biologically altruistic...
[13:37] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): with
[13:37] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): within
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes thats it, the work to promote the clan genes not their personal ones
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: cats have a lot of empathy, for humans and each other, though they are often confused :)
[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: i heared it from elephants
[13:38] herman Bergson: In case of danger a specific species of ants closes the entrances of their nest...
[13:38] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): They do NOT help rival none related nests
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): This came up in the consciousness talk Druth
[13:38] herman Bergson: But to complete this they need workers outside...
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I personally think animals perceive just as we do
[13:38] herman Bergson: which will perish...
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Mammals anyway for sure
[13:38] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Well, Rand grants altruism in an emergency; in the sense of individual sacrifice for what appears to be a greater good.
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: herman
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: let me take you up on an important point of fact
[13:39] herman Bergson: ok
[13:39] herman Bergson: Let tessa speak plz
[13:40] herman Bergson: Tessa is typing I guess.....
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hmmmm
[13:40] herman Bergson: Oh dear...she crashed....
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol
[13:41] herman Bergson: Dont laugh Merlin ^_^
[13:41] herman Bergson: That is soooo annoying....
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *stifles further laughing
[13:41] Farv Hallison: thoughts can have profound effects
[13:41] herman Bergson: grins
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: if people must only work to their own good then any form of self-sacrifice for any reason would be counter productive
[13:42] Mick Nerido: When Pam saved Jim's life he "owes" her in some way...
[13:42] herman Bergson: yes Druth....
[13:42] herman Bergson: That is a major issue in evolutionary biology....
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: wb tessa
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: Wb Tressa
[13:42] Volta (jerome.ronzales): wb
[13:42] herman Bergson: Welccome back Tessa...
[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:43] herman Bergson: Let all be quiet now and give the floor to Tessa...
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: <= imagines what Tessa is thinking now*
[13:43] herman Bergson: You had a major point Tessa...
[13:43] Farv Hallison: We have a sense of time, a few generations anyway; we will sacrifce for our children or ourbreputation. We know we wont live forever.
[13:44] herman Bergson: Ok Tessa is still thinking...
[13:44] Volta (jerome.ronzales): we know?
[13:44] herman Bergson: To get back to Druth...
[13:45] herman Bergson: In my previous lecture I gave an example what looks like counterproductive for the individual...
[13:45] Volta (jerome.ronzales): ah-ok!
[13:45] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[13:45] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I have looked at wiki Herman, I think Looking at the dictionary , altruism seems to have more than one meaning and perhaps that is why we disagree so profoundly
[13:45] herman Bergson: certain monkeys start calling out when there is a predettar in sight...that is...in THEIR sight....
[13:46] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Well, under Rand, it means sacrificing your highest values to a value you don't agree with.
[13:46] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): So sacrifice your children to Baal, drafting people for an unpopular war, that sort of thing
[13:46] herman Bergson: this means that they make themselves target of the predetar....so in terms of survival as individual they seem to be not the fittest
[13:47] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Unless, the group was their highest value; a mother sacrificing herself for her children is *not* a sacrifice in the Randian sense
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: I crashed
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: then somebody came to the door
[13:47] Volta (jerome.ronzales) " thats why monkey meat is appreciated in China restaurants"
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: thats very out of date btw
[13:47] herman Bergson: Exactly Huntress...
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: hard to get monkey meat in china nowadays
[13:48] herman Bergson: Rand is completely a-historical, a-social and a-cultural
[13:48] Volta (jerome.ronzales): ;)
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: in other words she's nuts
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: herman could I beg your indulgence to go back to my point?
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry about my crash
[13:48] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Not a social, but yes, she believes her truths are perrenial in history and transcend culture
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: at least seem to lack any social behaviour
[13:49] herman Bergson: look at the Youtube URLs I gave in the previous lectures Bejiita..and yes...there is someone who says that Rand was completely insane...
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: as said before she probably would bee a terribly dbad mother
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: you said before that the development of China was government driven
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aa yes i watched this and when i can see about her so far might well be correct
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: my perspective on this is from very close quarters over several decades
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: Tessa isn't quite as young as she looks
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: esp if she is the one actually responsible for the world finance bancrupcy 2008
[13:50] herman Bergson: Give Tessa the floor plz
[13:50] Tessa Zalivstok: actually the government driven Chinese economy was a total disaster
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: when the world economy ground to a halt when us banks went down
[13:51] Tessa Zalivstok: in my experience most people were malnourished and poorly dressed
[13:51] Huntress Selene (huntress.selenium): Teresa, yes, the Chinese are doing so well as they have capitalism now, albeit a highly regulated one
[13:51] herman Bergson: I am talking about current politics inChina....
[13:51] Tessa Zalivstok: when I say poorly I mean cold in winter to the extent that they died
[13:51] Tessa Zalivstok: yes
[13:52] Tessa Zalivstok: the development of china started in 1978 with an important scientific meeting which basically decided that the government should butt out of economics
[13:52] herman Bergson: And I am only talking about the economic growth rate...
[13:52] Tessa Zalivstok: which they did
[13:53] herman Bergson: the 5 years planning system..yes
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:53] Tessa Zalivstok: interestingly the levels of development in various chinese regions correlate very precisely with the share of government in the economy
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: Shen Zhen where i live has basically zero government role and is the richest
[13:54] herman Bergson: Well Tessa..of course I am not an expert in this field....
[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: don't they have a black market? we call it shadow economy
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: Guizhou which is the poorest has 70% government
[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is happening all over
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: the economy is a market economy
[13:54] herman Bergson: but the Chinese economy is booming and the one party system keeps all in check, I would say
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: there is no black market
[13:55] Tessa Zalivstok: even so-called government enterprises work in the market economy
[13:55] Tessa Zalivstok: the question of what is a government enterprise could take up an hour in itself
[13:55] herman Bergson: Well..we get into detail here too much....
[13:55] Tessa Zalivstok: so I don't think it's accurate to say what you did
[13:56] Tessa Zalivstok: the governments share in the economy is lower than in most european countries
[13:56] herman Bergson: What my lecture was about is to show that the ideas of Ayn Rand are....to quote Bejiita, 'nuts' form a philosophical perspective
[13:56] Tessa Zalivstok: that is an important figure
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: indded thats my view of her from what i've heard so far
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: started reading a bit on atlas too to see what its really all about
[13:57] Tessa Zalivstok: of course she's Russian
[13:57] herman Bergson: Look at the Scandinavian countries Tessa...
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: then ill get the perfect picture i guess
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: but nuts indeed
[13:57] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[13:57] Tessa Zalivstok: quite out of the mainstream of English thought on government
[13:57] herman Bergson: the government share seems to be there higher than in allother european countries....and they prosper...even in this crisis
[13:58] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Please, I think everyone agrees that Ayn was at least a couple of cards short of a full hand, but then you taking a huge leap to dismiss capitaism in the same breath
[13:58] Tessa Zalivstok: I'm not sure why people spend so much time on her and her turgid novels
[13:58] Tessa Zalivstok: they hardly drive thought
[13:58] herman Bergson: No no Annie....I dont dismiss capitalism at all!
[13:58] Tessa Zalivstok: sounds a lot like it to me
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: the problem is the greediness
[13:58] Bejiita Imako: take from the poor and give to the rich
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: jump on the ones laying down
[13:59] Tessa Zalivstok: how do "they" do that?
[13:59] Volta (jerome.ronzales): take what?
[13:59] herman Bergson: ideology Tessa....
[13:59] Bejiita Imako: i use to say the world need a new Robin Hood
[14:00] Lizzy Pleides: that would be fun
[14:00] Farv Hallison: make the people work hard but don't pay them enough to buy the product.
[14:00] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well here in USA the tax rate is higher on middle cllass workers than on the very very wealthy who pay so little
[14:00] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so that is taking in a way
[14:00] Volta (jerome.ronzales): the concept of taking and the greediness idea can be pretty weird sometimes
[14:00] Tessa Zalivstok: ideology isn't a potent force for taking money from people presumably by force
[14:00] herman Bergson: Exactly Gemma...here too....
[14:00] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thks
[14:01] herman Bergson: But let's not start a political discussion on details
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: look
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: the reality of history
[14:01] herman Bergson: This still is a philosophy class...
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: communism is a total economic failure
[14:01] herman Bergson: And what I wanted to make clear to you is
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: total
[14:01] druth Vlodovic: hard to separate if you're discussing the validity of an economic philosophy
[14:01] Tessa Zalivstok: details matter here
[14:02] herman Bergson: that the Ayn Rand philosophy is a huge erro
[14:02] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[14:02] herman Bergson: tho adopted by the financial world...to begin with Greenspan...
[14:03] herman Bergson: What I want to clarify is...where the Utopia of the Free market leads to....and in what way it has its good features
[14:03] herman Bergson: I guess I need a few more lectures....
[14:03] Lizzy Pleides: TC Farv
[14:03] Volta (jerome.ronzales): the idea i take from here today is that the altruism of a economic philosophy is not favorable to the common wealth of today!!??
[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your vivid participation....
[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismissed... ^_^
[14:03] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you very much Herman
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: hmm ot of interestigt stuff for sure
[14:04] oola Neruda: i think the takeaway is meant to be that altruism IS helpful to the commonwealth
[14:04] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: oki now i need to rush to an event
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[14:04] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[14:04] Volta (jerome.ronzales): herman i made a post on my jerome FB page
[14:04] Bejiita Imako: ':)

390:The Utopia of the Free Market - Altruism

On Youtube I did a search on the term "Altruism". What you find is almost shocking, but that is my personal view. One of the results was a trailer of the documentary "Ayn Rand & The prophecy of Atlas Shrugged".

It was uploaded August 19, 2011 and I was speechless. It was as if the whole world was turned upside down. Ayn Rand as the prophet of the current financial crisis !

Yes, she was with her Utopia of Greed and her Virtue of Self-Interest the opposite. She wasn't the prophet of it, but one of the main causes as a prophet of the Utopia of the Free Market.

Everybody who wished to enter the utopian Atlantis, as described by Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged had to take this oath:

I swear by my life and my love of it that I
will never live for the sake of another
man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

Rational egoism claims that the promotion of one’s own interests is always in accordance with reason. The greatest and most provocative proponent of rational egoism is Ayn Rand, whose The Virtue of Selfishness outlines the logic and appeal of the theory.

Rand argues that: first, properly defined, selfishness rejects the sacrificial ethics of the West’s Judaic-Christian heritage on the grounds that it is right for man to live his own life; and, she argues that, second, selfishness is a proper virtue to pursue.

She states: “the actor must always be the beneficiary of his action and that man must act for his own rational self-interest.” To be ethically selfish thus entails a commitment to reason rather than to emotionally driven whims and instincts.

Reason is, according to Rand, the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

Now, take this. Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.

From an evolutionary point of view the calling monkey makes a mistake. It seems evident, that it is not the fittest surviver in this situation. By calling he makes himself a target for the predator.

If it had adopted the view that “the actor must always be the beneficiary of his action and that man must act for his own rational self-interest.” it would have shut up and run.

This then is an act of altruism, which would be scorned by Rand. But here we enter a dense forest with respect to the concepts of altruism and egoism, c.q. self-interest. Let's make a start with elaborating on these issues.

The meaning of “altruism” in ordinary language is quite different from its use among evolutionary biologists, of which the behavior of the Velvet monkey is an example.

An ultimate motivation of assisting another regardless of one’s direct or indirect self-benefit is necessary for it to be altruistic in the ordinary sense, for what we might call moral altruism.

However, motivations and intentions are not accessible to someone studying non-humans. Thus, they are not part of the meaning of “altruism” in the biological sense.

Biological altruism is a course of action that enhances the expected fitness of another at the expense of one’s own fitness. A matter of importance here is to keep in mind that this behavior is observed among social animals.

You could argue, that, even if we accept an evolutionary approach to human behaviour, there is no particular reason to think that evolution would have made humans into egoists rather than psychological altruists.

On the contrary, it is quite possible that natural selection would have favoured humans who genuinely do care about helping others, i.e., who are capable of ‘real’ or psychological altruism.

I am far from done that the subject of altruism, so we'll continue next lecture.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Documentary: Uploaded on Aug 19, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-cIEcBqgaA&feature=g-vrec&context=G259e7edRVAAAAAAAAAg
OR
http://atlasshruggeddocumentary.com/
-------------------------------------------------------------

Ayn Rand at large:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viGkAZR-x8s&feature=related
-------------------------------------------------------------

a good laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho31mmsvyWc&feature=endscreen&NR=1



The Discussion

[13:17] Merlin Saxondale: Richard Dawkins says a lot about this in Selfish Gene
[13:17] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Merlin...
[13:18] Mick Nerido: In war a solder who falls on a grenade and saves others lives is considered a hero
[13:18] herman Bergson: That is about kin selection, if I am not mistaken
[13:19] herman Bergson: Yes Mick…don't think Rand would call him that
[13:20] Mick Nerido: In fact we call all worse dead good because they sacrificed for our benefit very altruistic i'd say
[13:20] herman Bergson: But I think Rand ignores all social features of the human being....
[13:20] Mick Nerido: war
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok
[13:20] Clerisse Beeswing: almost like me on a bus not making eye contacts with weirdos just to avoid them but in order to get them away from someone else one must act
[13:20] herman Bergson: Rand was against conscription for instance...
[13:21] herman Bergson: next time I'll discuss psychological egoism and altruism....
[13:21] Mick Nerido: In nomadic societies cooperation is encoraged
[13:21] herman Bergson: That deals with your action Clerisse
[13:22] Clerisse Beeswing: my ego and my psyche
[13:22] herman Bergson: Rand ignores a lot of empirical knowladge about the human being as social being...
[13:23] herman Bergson: For her we are plain individuals which are focused on our self-interest...gifted with that brilliant ratio that figures all out for us...
[13:23] Beertje Beaumont: how can a woman that thinks like that..have such an influence in the world?
[13:24] herman Bergson: never found any information about what she'd like to do with sick, mentally and physically handicapped people, old people, less gifted people...
[13:24] Velvet Braham: by writing bestselling novels!
[13:24] Clerisse Beeswing: she sounds very harsh
[13:24] herman Bergson: Well Velvet ....that is half the truth I would say....
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hmm really strange way to see at people and think its the right thing to behave
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: so she basically is responsible for all bad things happening in the world now?
[13:25] oola Neruda: she does address those less fortunate people ... she says swim... or sink
[13:25] herman Bergson: Because Atlas Shrugged was translated in to Dutch only in 2007....50 years after it was published in the US
[13:25] herman Bergson: In Europe is ais basically unknown...
[13:26] herman Bergson: She wrote a bestselling novel that suited the American mind and way of thinking....I would say
[13:26] Mick Nerido: She has taken the cult of individual personality to an extreme logical conclusion...
[13:26] Velvet Braham: she's not responsible for the state of the world, but she predicted it
[13:26] herman Bergson: At least to an extreme conclusion, Mick
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:26] herman Bergson: She did not predict it.....
[13:27] herman Bergson: she stimulated the believe in the utopia of greed....
[13:27] herman Bergson: Influenced the right people...Greenspan, Friedman Hayek...
[13:27] herman Bergson: They liked her ideas.....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: and from that it went straihgt down to hell
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:28] oola Neruda: in a way, it excuses the competitive nature in some people... and in some...the competition is to be on top... she says go for it and excuses any means to get there...
[13:28] herman Bergson: Just look on Youtube....I'll give you a few URLs after class.....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:28] oola Neruda: greed will take you a long way
[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: it's stupid to follow her fantasies
[13:29] oola Neruda: you believe what you want to believe
[13:29] herman Bergson: What you see is a load of movies tellin gthat there is too much government ...all American stuff....
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: I use to think, how can these people really sleep at night but guess they have no feel at all for others
[13:29] Beertje Beaumont: they dream of power and money Bejiita..
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: its strange cause i thought it was some instinct we had being social naturally
[13:29] herman Bergson: They believe they are right Bejiita....and then you sleep well :-)
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: but that seems not to be the case for many paople
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm aa maybe
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: its not logical for me but then i'm totally opposite
[13:30] herman Bergson: When it goes wrong you invent a new theory which tells you that it still is right... ㋡
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: i care lot for others
[13:30] herman Bergson: That is normal, Bejiita ^_^
[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: i do too
[13:31] Mick Nerido: my theory is that the suburbs and the auto allowed less close living and a more selfish lifestyle to florish
[13:31] herman Bergson: What Rand ignores completely is the social characteristics of the human being....
[13:31] oola Neruda: she was never a mother
[13:31] oola Neruda: or if she was.......
[13:31] herman Bergson: She makes us a skeleton with only a rational brain....
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: poor child then
[13:32] herman Bergson: even love is a business transaction in her opinion
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: she would for sure not been a good mother
[13:32] herman Bergson: I'll give you one URL where she explains this...
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: eee ok
[13:33] herman Bergson: the judge for yourself....
[13:33] herman Bergson: then
[13:33] Velvet Braham: It would have been interesting to see if her point of view changed if she had a child
[13:33] Clerisse Beeswing: not all people are cut out to be parents
[13:33] Mick Nerido: who were her parents?
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well that is one of the problems Velvet...
[13:34] herman Bergson: for the care for a child is regarded as atruistic behavior
[13:34] herman Bergson: or adopting a child?
[13:34] Velvet Braham: she emigrated from communist Russia.
[13:34] Velvet Braham: I think a lot of her viewpoint were formed by peoples' money and property being seized by the government.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Rand was an ardent opponent of all forms of collectivism....
[13:36] herman Bergson: For instance ...general healthcare was a no go for her...
[13:36] Mick Nerido: was she religous?
[13:36] herman Bergson: and at the momenet in the US...you hear people scream that they don't want Europena socialism.....
[13:37] herman Bergson: NO!!!! She was against all forms of religion! Mick
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: basically the rich should get care and surfive the poor just die
[13:37] herman Bergson: Because those religions preached altruism.....
[13:37] herman Bergson: and the most peculiar thing is...
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thats an awful wiev healtcare should be for everyone
[13:37] herman Bergson: when you look at all world religions....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: but see clearly the signs here as well
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: going all wrong direction
[13:38] herman Bergson: one of their main focusses is the care for your fellowman....altruism as a virtue
[13:38] herman Bergson: An interesting observation...
[13:39] herman Bergson: There is a lot to see on Youtube....so I would say...have alook at the next URLS....
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Before there was health insurance religous organizations handled health care..
[13:40] herman Bergson: Hi Dusty....
[13:40] Dusty Kupferwasser: Hello
[13:40] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...
[13:40] herman Bergson: See you on Thursday again...
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:41] Dusty Kupferwasser blushes
[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: thanks professor
[13:41] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:41] herman Bergson: a bit late Dusty?
[13:41] Velvet Braham: thank you, professor!
[13:41] herman Bergson: Ah Rodney is in time...
[13:42] Mick Nerido: very interesing classs, thanks herman!
[13:42] Rodney Handrick: Hi Herman
[13:42] herman Bergson: Class was just dismissed Rodney !
[13:42] Rodney Handrick: Really? man...
[13:42] Velvet Braham: Well, gotta get back to Atlas Shrugged. It's a good re-read!
[13:43] Velvet Braham: the new one?
[13:43] Velvet Braham: I saw part 1
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aa managed to download a copy of it so checking it out a bit too
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: makes u get the picture better
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes the 2011 Part 1
[13:43] Velvet Braham: it is good, yes!
[13:44] herman Bergson: I had read the book....and the movie stood the test....
[13:44] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman..the ideas of rand are concerning me
[13:44] Velvet Braham: I read he book in high school, but it's a different story to me now
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hmm that last youtube makes a point, she seems completley insane for sure
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: at least have a very strange view on humanity
[13:44] herman Bergson: Just look at the Ayn Rand YouTube clip I gave you......
[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: yes i will:)
[13:45] herman Bergson: But look at all other stuff on Rand....
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: will be interesting checking then trough
[13:45] herman Bergson: She has a large group of zealous supporters
[13:45] herman Bergson: till today
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:45] herman Bergson: The Tea Party people is one of them
[13:46] Velvet Braham: gah
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: Well, I will go, bye all
[13:46] Velvet Braham: bye Merlin
[13:46] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: eee ok but is the tea party something good?
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: didnt remember what it was all about
[13:46] Velvet Braham: it was a couple hundred years ago
[13:46] Velvet Braham: now, not so much
[13:47] herman Bergson: In Boston it was an act of independence...1760 or so...
[13:47] Velvet Braham: a protest against paying taxes
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes was something like that
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes Velvet....
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: but wasnt that cause the taxes was awfully high
[13:47] herman Bergson: and now the Tea Party protests against almost everything that is governmental
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:48] herman Bergson: deregulation they call it....
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm then its not so good
[13:48] herman Bergson: The oath of Atlantis....
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: seen the results here
[13:48] Velvet Braham: in the 1760's it was about paying taxes to England
[13:49] Velvet Braham: but having no vote
[13:49] Velvet Braham: no representation in government
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: they said here it would get cheaper and better but the opposite is true
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: turned into a nightmare
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: trains healthcare
[[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ect
[13:49] herman Bergson: Same here Bejiita...
[13:50] herman Bergson: Long live the Free Market....
[13:50] Velvet Braham: this is very interesting stuff
[13:50] herman Bergson: And I claim that it is a Utopia....
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: aa maybe cause to get it to really work this way is impossible
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well Velvet....Thursday same time same place next round :-)
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: its like saying - is +
[13:51] Velvet Braham: sweet. I'll see you all on Thursday!
[13:51] herman Bergson: You are welcome, Velvet
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu soon
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: time to prepare for Qwarks party now i guess
[13:52] Nitro Fireguard: I must go now
[13:52] Nitro Fireguard: See you soon
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu all
[13:52] herman Bergson: Ok Nitro....
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:52] Nitro Fireguard: and thank you for this interesting session :-)
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: was great
[13:52] Nitro Fireguard: byeeee
[13:52] herman Bergson: my pleasure...
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: you hit some interesting spots here
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:52] herman Bergson: It is pretty exciting Bejiita...
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: aaa indeed
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and scary
[13:53] herman Bergson: yes...especially that

389: The Utopia of the Free Market - Rand's Utopia

It is remarkable to note that in many studies on utopian ideas, you don't find any references to the utopia Atlantis of Ayn Rand.

There are on or two exception, which refer to the neoliberal utopia, but it almost seems that we have a blind spot, which obscures our view of the utopian features of capitalism.

It is like we take capitalism and its present form, neoliberalism, for granted, like we take gravity, electricity or magnetism for granted. That is just the way nature is, isn't it?

Let's have a closer look at this Atlantis of Ayn Rand and how it comes into being. Let's begin with the basic idea of the story in "Atlas Shrugged"

There is a striking resemblance between a tale by Claude-Henri de Saint-Simon (1760-1825) and the basic plot in Rand's novel.

Saint-Simon say: Suppose one day 50 top scientists of France, 50 top bankers, 50 leading engineers, a hundred farmers, craftsmen and artists would disappear.

The country would become a body without a heart. All activity would come to a standstill.

Now, suppose this. We leave all above mentioned groups in place and make all ministers disappear and with them hundreds of officials, landowners, cardinals, and ten thousand of the richest people, who do not work.

What would happen to the country? Probably nothing, because the empty places can be filled easily by others, because the people that disappeared were useless anyway.

Useful to the prosperity of the country are the people that do the real work, people who are creative and productive. And this is what is the core of Rand's story.

Top industrialists, scientists, bankers, managers and lawyers just disappear suddenly. Public transportation breaks down and so on.

But these people do not just disappear. They move to a valley in the mountains of Colorado where they establish their Atlantis.

That is the utopia in which not only Rand, but also men like Greenspan, Hayek, Friedman believed. When you let the market absolutely free, there will emerge an ideal society in which prices optimally will reflect the balance between capital and labor. That was their utopian belief.

In Atlantis all human relations are dominated by money. You don't need a government to control affairs, but you just pay for everything you need and get paid for what you produce.

Although Rand is reluctant to use the term, Atlantis is a society. Rand however prefers to see it as a collection of free individuals guided by their rational self-interest.

Atlantis is a whole new world, a new way of life. To bring this message of salvation to the whole world, the old world has to be destroyed.

The utopians in Atlantis do their utmost to destroy the outside world by blowing up their mines, abandon their factories, attacking and destroying all shipping.

The heroes of Atlantis are pure and dedicated to their conviction. When Dagny Taggert arrives in Atlantis and stays in the house of the man who loves her, she, of course, has to pay for her stay.

But she has no Atlantis money. No problem, to earn money she does his household. And she already is a true believer. When her lover offers her to help with the dishes, she says:

Oh no….isn't that agains the rules?! Oops, yes.

This is the oath all inhabitants of Atlantis take:
I swear by my life and my love of it that I
will never live for the sake of another
man, nor ask another man to live for mine.

It is not done to help your neighbor for free in Atlantis. Altruism leads to destruction. This leads to statements like this: " For a man of moral stature, whose desires are born of rational values, sacrifice is the surrender of the right to the wrong, of the good to the evil.

And this "I now work for use, not for profit - my use, not the looters' profit. Only those who add to my life, not those who devour it, are my market. Only those who produce, not those who consume, can ever be anybody's market. I deal with the life-givers, not with the cannibals."

What to do with those who are not such creative, productive and rational beings? No problem, they'll yet need money to survive, so they automatically become the labor force of this shining neoliberal world.

That is what Adam Smith called "the invisible hand of the market". And those who can not work? The answer to that question we can see all over the world. These people end up in slums near big cities and live in extreme poverty. Simple as that, if it were Ayn Rand to judge.


The discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:23] herman Bergson: The floor is yours.. ㋡
[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: Brilliant Herman, Thank you!
[13:23] Star Magne: yes thank you...
[13:23] herman Bergson: Well...if you have any remarks or questions :-)
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: so how do these people eat with put money
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: just curious
[13:24] Mick Nerido: even right wing tea party in US believe in giving to charties.
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: of course they
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: particularly
[13:24] herman Bergson: Rand doesn't
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: Rand is turgid
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hmm that's also a thing we clearly see here in sweden, with the party that governs sweden now work and money is the way to go
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: why would you read her
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: the unemployed get a real hard time with less and less money while really hard to get a job
[13:25] herman Bergson: Because she has a great influence on economics these days Tessa
[13:25] Star Magne: so the strongest survives...
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and the richer just get richer
[13:25] Tessa Zalivstok: the only good thing from Ayn Rand was when she gave Greenspan the nickname "the Undertaker"
[13:26] Mick Nerido: Bill Gates and other capitalist rich give a lot to causes...
[13:26] Beertje Beaumont: will you excuse me Herman..i have to go
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: well they give a lot of money to welfare
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: Tc Beertje
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Mick..what would you do whenyou possess so much money that it needs 5 generations to spend it all
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Beertje
[13:26] Beertje Beaumont: bye:)
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: in fact Friedman writes at great length in praise of private support of the poor
[13:27] Star Magne: help others to help themselves..
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: if i had that much money id sure try help a lot of other people and not just take it for myself
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: but many does just that
[13:27] Mick Nerido: it should be my problem lol
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: now you may think that to be inadequate
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: I do
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: but it's a fact
[13:27] Star Magne: ...lots of freebies
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: and before Bismarck charity was always the function of the Church
[13:28] oola Neruda: social security and medicare are in real danger as well as pensions that have been demolished by companies... people did work but their promised earnings are in danger
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: you can't just dismiss this
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: intil very recently the very management of our hospitals was based on the management of convents
[13:28] herman Bergson: Charity and altruism is a special chapter on its own Tessa..
[13:29] herman Bergson: especialy in relation to Rand
[13:29] herman Bergson: Nice subject for a next lecture
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but you can't pretend that the so-called neo liberals just ignore the poor
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: that's plain wrong
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes thats true, as i said, here the ones who governs see only to the ones who have a job and money, the ones that haven't or are sick are outsiders for them
[13:30] Mick Nerido: did she take her ideas from the natures dog eat dog world do u think?
[13:30] oola Neruda: regarding poverty... it is self interest to head off a mes for it is harder to clean it up
[13:30] herman Bergson: They cant ignore them...of course...it would destabalize society
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: no
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: thats very cynical
[13:30] AnnieBrightstar Resident: But true
[13:30] Tessa Zalivstok: you can't just choose your opponents and accuse them of cynicism
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: they must help them get a job then, instead they say and this is a bit scary
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: people care
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: their slogan is work gives freedom
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: same as nazis used
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: arbeit macht frei
[13:31] Star Magne: yes have to invest more for people to get jobs
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: you also can'ty just pick hitler slogans and apply them to people who gave their lives to get rid of Hitler
[13:31] Tessa Zalivstok: that's cheap argument
[13:32] herman Bergson: Leave out Hitler plz....
[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: i hate this sentence, .. sorry
[13:32] herman Bergson: wrong metaphore
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok whispers: well who said that the slogan of the neos is work makes free?
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: they say all should have a work but they yet don't care about the unemployed instead they make life harder and harder for them with restrictions less payout and no help getting a work
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: whats that but a Hitler slogan?
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Fudal society there was King Barons Knights Church and surfs...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Let's get back to the main issue here....
[13:33] herman Bergson: and that was to show that Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand is a true Utopia..
[13:34] herman Bergson: and that her ideas are the basics of the current neoliberalism
[13:34] Mick Nerido: Utopia meaning best of all possible worlds?
[13:34] herman Bergson: Which has led to the financial crisis the world is in now
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: Utopia meaning nowhere
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Mick
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: from Sir Thomas More's eponymous book
[13:35] herman Bergson: Greenspan believed in the blessings of the free market till th ened
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ahj
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:35] Star Magne: what will be the next utopia offering a hope a way out from the currrent ills...?
[13:35] herman Bergson: when he had to admit to the Senate committee that there yes ..something was wrong with that idea
[13:36] herman Bergson: smiles..
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:36] herman Bergson: Well..this is a nice hot issue...
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: interesting for sure
[13:36] herman Bergson: We'll continue on this in a next lecture...
[13:37] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: well I hope for sure that the tables will turn soon and start go in the right direction in some way
[13:37] Mick Nerido: thanks Herman
[13:37] Star Magne: thank you...for all the insights..was a pleasure...to be here ...:))
[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed... ^_^
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: this capital system we have today is dangerous play for sure
[13:37] herman Bergson: Unless you still have an urgent remark or question of course
[13:38] Merlin Saxondale: Bye everyone :)
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: its a difficult topic for sure
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but interestinbg
[13:38] AnnieBrightstar Resident: Bye Merlin
[13:38] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: cu merlin
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:38] Star Magne: efficient energy and human fierndly technology ..can be the grounds for a promissing future?
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ill see if i can find that atlas shrugged and read it
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: seems interesting
[13:38] Star Magne: thanks
[13:38] herman Bergson: I don't pretend to have all answers Bejiita...far from that
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: downloaded and started to read accelerando
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: seems very interesting
[13:39] herman Bergson: But we can look at matters with a critical eye
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: You dont need to be a cook to tell if some dish really tasts good :-)
[13:40] Star Magne: hehee
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed not, hehe
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: true
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: easy to feel if something taste good or bad but harder to actually make
[13:40] AnnieBrightstar Resident: Seems more of an empty plate
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: but as an expert you have another view i think
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: same analogy almost with using a good or bad software and program your own
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy....