398 The Utopia of the Free Market Michael Sandel

This weekend there was an interview with and an article about Michal Sandel in my newspaper.I insert this lecture in my series to bring him to your attention.

Michael J. Sandel (born March 5, 1953) is an American political philosopher and a professor at Harvard University.

He is best known for the Harvard course 'Justice' which is available to view online, and for his critique of Rawls' "A Theory of Justice" in his "Liberalism and the Limits of Justice" (1982).

I mention this man for two reasons. He is an influential philosopher regarding economic issues and the second reason is, that it proofs that we are not alone in our questioning the free

market.

The title of his latest book is expressive "What Money Can't Buy" (April 2012) and in the interview he questions the introduction of the market in education, healthcare or even in our

private life.

`In recent decades, social inequality has increased, especially in the United States and parts of Europe. It is often seen as unjust relative to the poor.

That is true. But there is another reason to worry about the growing disparity between rich and poor. Too large a gap makes it increasingly difficult to see ourselves as citizens who share a common life. This damages the moral fabric, which our society is made of´, he says.

We live in a period of market-triomfalism. The free market is regarded as the primary instrument to bring wellbeing and prosperity.

The idea of the free market stays so popular because it is related to a sense of freedom. We are the people who may choose, what we want.

And here Sandel touches on the quintessence of my current project. The free market is neutral, a-moral, it is said.

As soon as you question the freedom of choice, you have to take a moral stand and as soon as you do that others will accuse you that you try to restrict their freedom.

Yet you can not deny that issues as redistribution of income, education and healthcare have moral characteristics. It is wrong to do as if you can take decisions in these areas denying the presence of moral questions here.

Against the freedom of the consumer Snadel puts the freedom of citizens, the freedom as a political community collectively deciding on the organization of society. However, the

economic forces have become so strong that citizens have less and less influence on them.

`What I am most concerned about is how this economic thinking dispels other values by introducing the language of free choice, cost efficiency and so on`, said Sandel.

As you see, we are not alone in questioning the sense and nonsense of the ideas behind the free market.

Nor alone with the idea that the overestimation of the free consumer is a threat to the social values in our society.

Nor alone with the idea that we are social and moral beings and not just the homo economicus in our quest for a better world.


The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:19] Debbie Dee (framdor): yeah!
[13:19] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman....
[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ?
[13:20] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Would you say that today's talk was highly significant in this course?
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: hmm I read recently in a paper how thay even though the companies go + want even more so they close the factories here and lot of people loose their jobs so the

owners can get even more money
[13:20] herman Bergson: Well...at least as a confirmation that the topic I have chosen here is debated at other levels as welll
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: Jofa, a manufacturer of Hockey gear closed recently for that reason
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: tragic
[13:21] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm It seems more than that to me somehow
[13:21] Rina (rinascita) is online.
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: Adidas took over and moved it to Poland
[13:22] herman Bergson: In a way I gave an outline of where we will end with this project
[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes
[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): The biggest problem I see is that our modern systems are based on consuming our planet. The wealth comes from stored energy, and we use it up so

fast.
[13:22] herman Bergson: So Beertje, I hope this cheered you up a little?
[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *agrees with Debbie
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no..not yet
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....
[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): The shocking figure for me is we;ve burnt half the fuel in just over 100 years
[13:23] herman Bergson: the current problem is the overestimation of the consumer.....as the so called free choosing individual
[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): ok. The result is overconsumption
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, I think the environment should be the main work of science from now on
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: and that fully working stuff is thrown away for newer things
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: thats waste
[13:24] herman Bergson: Google on Michael Sandel...interesting person.....!
[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): and the economic systems need to make that happen.
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: how debbie?
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: while they make more and more money of our consumption that they stimulate with comercials all day long
[13:25] herman Bergson: He is one of the people who have the same ideas as I have...or the other way around...whatever
[13:25] herman Bergson: what I want to say is, that there is an ongoing debate.
[13:25] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I find it very difficult to imagine a change to the system, I will try and read Michael Sandel
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: i dont buy more then what i need, my tv is around 5 years but it works and im happy with it, good pic and so
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: tv
[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think we need to use the tools that stimulate consumption, to protect the environment and resources
[13:26] herman Bergson: The most important issue is REDISTRIBUTION....
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: im also making sure i buy good quality stuff that lasts
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Bejita but I bet you are not using an old PC
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): a 486 or something lol
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: my pc is as old as the tv except the graphics card
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok :)
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: BUT the core 2 cpus are so powerful it works still like a rocket
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: 6600 2.4 gHz
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: really happy with it
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah well thats not an old pc then
[13:27] herman Bergson: Ok let's not discuss computers ....lol
[13:27] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Redistribution to make a significant change, cannot be simply within members of a town , or country , but globally. and for that to happen there

will be losers as well as winners
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: the media are part of the system, even the babies are bombed with commercials when they watch tv
[13:27] herman Bergson: Let's discuss what is going on in the world...
[13:27] herman Bergson: and what you see is that richer get richer and poor people get poorer...
[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Having a forest or an unpolluted river needs to be the desired outcome, promoted on tv. And the price of stored energy should be radically escelated.
[13:27] herman Bergson: Look at Russia and China....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: yes not a good development
[13:28] herman Bergson: all of a sudden there is a small upperclass of capitalists...
[13:28] herman Bergson: an amazing development for a communist country...
[13:28] Friend (friend.oliva): ...a bunch of criminals
[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): why criminals?
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *laughs
[13:29] herman Bergson: The weirdest things happen overthere indeed Friend :-)
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: cause they threat the rest of the people like crap
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): here we go
[13:29] herman Bergson: That is waht the future demands....
[13:30] herman Bergson: not absolute frree choice consumer individualiasm.....
[13:30] herman Bergson: but good arguments for redistributing the wealth of this earth...
[13:30] Friend (friend.oliva): ...you need to have money, to feel free in that market system
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Does this challenge democracy?
[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: but this won't work in a democratic system
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: and without money you as human is worthless
[13:31] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): So long as everyone here understands that initially at least they will be significant losers.
[13:31] herman Bergson: It has worked in a democratic system.....
[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If we are prescribing something different from what democracy has given us....
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: everything have a price it seems
[13:31] herman Bergson: We have a wellfare state....
[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): I am not sure that we have a democracy these days. no one seems to vote any more .
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but can you set a price on a life?
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: no
[13:31] herman Bergson: But for some reason there is a political movent putting much energy in breakin git down
[13:32] herman Bergson: and drive us in the direction of Randian Individualism
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): As far as democracy goes I ask 'Would turkeys vote for Christmas'
[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: the politiciand only get votes when they promise welfare and growth and richness for everybody
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy.....
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think that agrees with what Im saying (?)
[13:33] herman Bergson: And the result is that all democratic countries face enormous national debts....
[13:33] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Herman would you not agree that in redistribution of wealth the West will be significant losers. they will be Merlin's Turkeys
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: the prob in sweden is that the politicans promise so much and after the election
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *smiles
[13:33] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: its clear it was just lies
[13:33] herman Bergson: I don't think so Annie....
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ment nothing
[13:33] Ageliki Mekanic is offline.
[13:34] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): So you have to raise the standard of living in South America, Africa and the far East without in anyway affecting the West?
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and the party wwe have now do all fpor the rich
[13:34] herman Bergson: It seems that every government is the past decades ahs thought...ok we spend some extra money..the next elected governemtn will clear it up
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and hide it under a lot of bullshit talk
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Annnie and that is very well possible....
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: as long you have a job its ok but if you loose it god heltp you
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: they only think from one election to the next
[13:35] herman Bergson: Those continents have enormous resources
[13:35] herman Bergson: which are not yet used
[13:35] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): True
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: thats how it is here nowadays since they came to the power
[13:35] herman Bergson: Agricuture in Aftrica is at a low level...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: the Moderates they are called
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: a blue party
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: = capitalist
[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): There is not much water in africa...
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): True again but we like that
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): We like Africa to be aplace we can visit to look at wildlife
[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...let's not get stuck in discussing details...
[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes ;)
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: but they have mineral resources
[13:36] herman Bergson: but this world still has lots of possibilities
[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): we do. and they get ripped out of the earth and sent overseas, with the profits, by the gloabal corps.
[13:37] herman Bergson: But not when all is in the hands of a small rich upperclass....without any democratic control on their actions
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): Ant the africans stay poor while the wealthy get new stuff
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: it seemes we have reached that point already herman
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thats so tragic i cant believe it
[13:38] herman Bergson: What point Lizzy?
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: the inhabitants of africa get nothing or even get murdered by the companies
[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: a small rich upperclass owns everthing
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: then they take all
[13:38] Amera Hansome (amera.pomilio) is online.
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: modern times slavery
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy....but that doesnt mean it can not be changed....
[13:39] herman Bergson: It also involves a philosophy on private property....
[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: do you think its possible to step back to social economy?
[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): It is vital to find a way
[13:39] herman Bergson: A discussion on the sense of making someone earn 21 million a year
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...I believe so yes......
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not a step back Lizzy..it's a step forward to social economie
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes what do you do with that much money? dont get it
[13:40] herman Bergson: The financial crisis brought is at the edge of an abbys...
[13:40] herman Bergson: Governments saved the banking system because they feared a meltdown...
[13:41] herman Bergson: So it is business as usual it seems in that financial world...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: money itself have no value its what you can buy for it that have an actual value i use tosay
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: for us its a step forward but not for the rich people
[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): The economy is still screwed....
[13:41] herman Bergson: yes...and WE ar ehere discussing these issues....
[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): watch as the energy prices keep pushing it
[13:41] herman Bergson: Dont think we are the only people in this world who discuss these issues...
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie..
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: no must be lots that do
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: for sure
[13:42] herman Bergson: We have oilcompany SHell here....
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: this system of today is so unfair
[13:42] herman Bergson: the gazoline prizes are sky high at the moment....
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: perhaps we have a revolution again in some years?
[13:43] herman Bergson: and crisis or no crisis...SHELL achieves profits in billions year after year..!
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: soon we cant afford to go anywhere and the oil companies have bought up and shut down all development of alternatives like battery developmnet and hydrogen
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: i heard about before
[13:43] herman Bergson: How is that possible.....
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): You will. We had one here in 1994 with Mandella.
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Revolutions can help
[13:43] herman Bergson: yes....
[13:44] herman Bergson: Maybe a revolution agains these market manipulating big companies
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: we need to find a good alternative energy source but how dows it come that battery tech havent developed hardly at all since the first electric car
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and thats before the combustion engine was even invented
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): The problem is the amount of enrgy we use is too much for a battery
[13:44] herman Bergson: Just remember my previous lecture....
[13:45] herman Bergson: We live in an economy focused ..obsessed by growth...
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: a little start is the ”occupy wallstreet" movement, isn't it?
[13:45] herman Bergson: But for centuries we lived in a subsistence economy
[13:45] herman Bergson: that means....
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): You can draw 3 kw from a electric plug - that needs about 30 sqm of solar panel
[13:45] herman Bergson: we only produced what we needed
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): a big bmw produces 380 kw
[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): 100 plugs
[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): batteries arent gonna happen
[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): On square metre lets in 1kw of energy from the sun
[13:46] herman Bergson: You can convert the whole Sahara dessert on on big solar energy p[lant :-))
[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *One
[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): yep and cells are about 10% efficient
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: but then u have to transport the energy all mover the world
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): so even at 1kw/sqm thats 380 sq m for your car
[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That is direct heat but of course I agree the conversion to electricity is much much less
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: you d need to use billions of volts to minimize losses = impossible
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes like we transport all data from here all over the world....
[13:47] herman Bergson: Debbie in South Africa can read this...
[13:47] herman Bergson: and you in Sweden Bejiita
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: data is one thing power is trickier
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): absolutely
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): data is easy - low power
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:48] herman Bergson: We transport gas and oil through evry long pipelines across continents...
[13:48] herman Bergson: There still is so much possible...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: and you can do it with laser and repeathers along the way
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yues but need huge pumps consuming 100s MW of power
[13:48] herman Bergson: Bu twhat it all boils dow to is politics and ethics,,,
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): I hope that the data revolution is enabling people like us to think better and more globally
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: to pump the oil
[13:49] herman Bergson: and that is the discussion we have to have...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well Debbie..in a way we do..dont we...
[13:49] Frankie Lonergan is online.
[13:49] herman Bergson: We are from all over this globe...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Look at the map on the wall...
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes. Thats why I come to school, Prof :)
[13:49] herman Bergson: every red dot is a reader of our blog!
[13:50] herman Bergson: and that is a good feeling....
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ?
[13:50] herman Bergson: we may be a tiny drop in the ocean.....
[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): I see me on your map ;)
[13:50] Friend (friend.oliva): :9
[13:50] herman Bergson: smiles....
[13:50] herman Bergson: yes!
[13:50] herman Bergson: But I believe that all these tiny drops one day will become an ocean themselves...
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ?
[13:51] herman Bergson: so...let's get ready for the next lecture ^_^
[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your inspiring participation
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: nice as usual
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ?
[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ?
[13:52] Friend (friend.oliva): Thank you :)
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Herman, and Co-students ;)
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: nice
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: oki time for me to head back to my swedish friends party
[13:52] herman Bergson: And? Beertje....got some more hope now?
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm....not yet
[13:52] herman Bergson: smiles...
[13:54] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thanks Herman, its very interesting
[13:55] herman Bergson: thank you Annie
[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks again Herman - I do enjoy these lectures.
[13:55] herman Bergson: You are welcome Debbie

397: The Utopia of the Free Market - Subsitence economy

In the previous lecture I told you that Polanyi (1886 - 1964)mentions three different mechanisms that organized historical societies to perform two tasks : reciprocity, redistribution and the common household.

These two tasks were:
1. The community must develop a system to produce goods and services which are needed for its survival.

2. It must organize the distribution of the fruits of its production in such a way that the production process can continue.

To perform these tasks it wasn't done always in the way we are used to with our free market mechanism.

The oldest of these three mechanisms, which the homo sapiens shares with all social animals, is that of a group which produces for its own consumption.

As humans we add to that the production of consumer goods, like clothes and tools, which are necessary for survival.

We do this by living in a common household. Common household can mean a number of things: the family, the clan, the tribe, a convent, a medieval lordship, etc.

For the Ancient Greek, as described by Aristotle, this common household, or "oikos" was the family group, including slaves. Managing this oikos was called "oikonomia".

The main goal of the oikos was to produce and be self-supporting: production for its primary livelihood.

It was characterized by what we now call "subsistence economy" . A subsistence economy only possesses enough goods to be used by a particular oikos, tribe or nation to maintain its existence and provides little to no surplus for other investments.

It is a kind of economy, which is not driven by a constant need for growth. The market was at most a place to obtain some additional consumer goods.

In the Middle Ages we see a same kind of subsistence economy, often restricted to large estates owned by some knight or baron.

There we see the mechanisms of reciprocity and redistribution, where the knight offers protection in exchange of part of the crop of the farmers.

In times of famine in such a lordship the ruler took care of redistribution of food, for instance. Main characteristic of this economy was, that it was an economy without money.

Of course there existed money and you certainly must have greedy people through all history, but here I am talking about how money functioned and was embedded in culture and society.

This subsistence economy has lasted for centuries, but between the beginning of the 16th century and mid-nineteenth century the change took place.

The subsistence economy was gradually replaced by the free market economy. A free market is a market where prices are determined by supply and demand.

The basic conviction is here that in a free market, the system of prices is the emergent result of a vast number of voluntary transactions, rather than of political decrees as in a controlled market.

The freer the market, the more prices will reflect consumer habits and demands, and the more valuable the information in these prices are to all players in the economy.

Through free competition between vendors for the provision of products and services, prices tend to decrease, and quality tends to increase.

Thus ended "the War against subsistence", as Ivan Illich called it in 1981. I'll elaborate on this issue in the next lecture.


The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you....
[13:22] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): pfew...
[13:23] Bijou Krokus: clap clap Herman!!!!!
[13:23] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): that is a lot to think about
[13:23] herman Bergson: if you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours
[13:23] bombay1: thanks Herman for the nice reading
[13:23] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): why...do politicians still want the free market?..they see with their own eyes that it doesn't work
[13:23] bombay1: I didn't know I was so greedy!
[13:23] herman Bergson: the main point is the shift from a subsuistence economy into a free market economy....
[13:24] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): lol Bombay
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: cause they are also greedy the politicans
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: want more and more money, look at their payouts
[13:24] herman Bergson: it is more complex than that Beertje....
[13:24] herman Bergson: in the first place we have to find the reasons for this shift...
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: they have something between 30000 to 60000 sek / month
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: that's almost one years payout for a normal worker
[13:25] herman Bergson: I think one big reason is the change of methods of production
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: sure they have an important job but that amount of money hmm
[13:25] herman Bergson: To give you a historic example....
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and then here in sweden i think they dont do their job properly at all
[13:26] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): by putting robots instead of eorkers?
[13:26] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): workers
[13:26] herman Bergson: in 1733 the Flying Shuttle was patented.....
[13:26] herman Bergson: this shuttle was the thing that shoots the thread in a loom from left to right....
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, for making fabric
[13:27] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): Leonardo DaVinci invented the helicopter
[13:27] herman Bergson: where you needed 2 men before now you needed one and the cloth could be much wider too...
[13:27] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): did he had a patent on it?
[13:27] bombay1: and now we think all is normal
[13:27] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): ahhhhh
[13:27] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): i see
[13:27] herman Bergson: this means that the production of textiles increased enormously....
[13:27] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): ah yes
[13:28] bombay1: and still does
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: aaa and the steam engine made everything power driven and started huge textile factories
[13:28] herman Bergson: the weaver didnt produce for his own household or group only....but produced a lot more...
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: and we need clothing for sure
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: so we dont freeze
[13:29] herman Bergson: another thing is that men became laborers earning wages....
[13:29] bombay1: hihihi you for sure Bejiita !!
[13:29] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): but in those days woman wore the cloths much longer that we do now
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe well then there is this moral panic about being naked also today
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:29] herman Bergson: I'll elaborate on these developments in the next lecture...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:29] herman Bergson: but one thing is clear....
[13:29] Bijou Krokus: and now we wear less and less ;-)))
[13:29] Caresse (caresse.czeret): I need a lot of fabric :))))
[13:30] Caresse (caresse.czeret): even for a bikini:))grins
[13:30] Bijou Krokus: not me caresse hihi
[13:30] herman Bergson: it is nearly impossible to return to the old form of economy...
[13:30] Bijou Krokus: I even knit it myself!
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes the system we have today is basically welded in like a physical law or something
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: unchangeable
[13:31] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): i think they don't want to change
[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe you remember the 60s where communes were formed based on a subsistence economy idea
[13:31] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): too much profit for them
[13:31] bombay1: they are satisfied with this
[13:31] herman Bergson: protest against consumerism...
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ths system we use however have many problems
[13:31] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: greedy people only wanting more and more for themselves while the rest is starving cayse cant afford buying food ect
[13:32] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): remembering the 60...we must be old..
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: thats tragic for sure
[13:32] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...
[13:32] herman Bergson: one of the fundamental problems of today is redistribution of goods
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:32] herman Bergson: as is reciprocity....
[13:33] herman Bergson: the banker squeezes all money out of us but does nothing in return in a social sense
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: nope
[13:33] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): oh very true
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: as i said before
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: before in tome banks were for us
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: now we are for the banks
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:34] herman Bergson: yes...they call us MUPPETS....
[13:34] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): question is..how will we survife this?
[13:34] herman Bergson: That is how top bankers refer to their customers....
[13:34] herman Bergson: we will Beertje
[13:34] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): i'm not that sure anymore
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hmm that's not too nice name to put on your customers
[13:35] bombay1: we showed that befor
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: muppets
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: like something you just use as you wish for yourself
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Bombay...we survived all kinds of crises....
[13:35] bombay1: and we will do more
[13:35] bombay1: we are made for that
[13:35] herman Bergson: I think that eventually it will boil down to a better redistribution of the goods of this earth....
[13:35] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): 60.000 people are depending on foodbanks now
[13:36] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): here in the netherlands
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:36] Bijou Krokus: and even growing indeed Beertje
[13:36] herman Bergson: foodbanks is a way of redistribution of goods.....
[13:36] herman Bergson: not one I find elegant..but it is
[13:36] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): it depresses me
[13:37] herman Bergson: smile
[13:37] Bijou Krokus: it is a sad idea yes
[13:37] herman Bergson: me too Beertje...
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hmm not good for sure this development
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: gets me worried
[13:37] Caresse (caresse.czeret): i promiss not to eat that much anymore..
[13:37] Bijou Krokus: not only for the best of many people
[13:37] herman Bergson: But it is only a symptom which shows that there is something wrong with the overall system
[13:37] Bijou Krokus: only for the rich ones
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes indeed
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: a clear indicator for sure
[13:38] Bijou Krokus: the riches get richer.. the poor people more poor
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: that something isnt right at all
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:38] bombay1: it is terribl to hear that yes....
[13:38] Caresse (caresse.czeret): it makes me angry
[13:39] herman Bergson: well...I'll spend some more lectures on this subject....we are not finished yet...:)
[13:39] Caresse (caresse.czeret): and a lot of other people too
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: we need a new robin hood
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:39] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): a task for you Bejiita..
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: turn everything in right direction again, and distribute resources evenly so everyone can have a good life
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: life
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: not just afew
[13:40] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): i thinkit needs a war
[13:40] herman Bergson: this earth is rich enough to offer everybody a good life....
[13:40] bombay1: a sad idea.. but it would work
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: war dont solve problems only kill innocent people in lots
[13:40] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): yes..but the system doesn't listen to that
[13:40] herman Bergson: dont be that pessimistic Beertje....
[13:41] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): sorry
[13:41] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): but after these lessons i feel that way
[13:41] Bijou Krokus: I can understand Beertje.. you will be reminded on what is going on
[13:41] herman Bergson: But we are only halfway Beertje....
[13:41] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): i don't see any solution
[13:42] herman Bergson: We have tried to achieve insight in how things work...
[13:42] Bijou Krokus: still more to go
[13:42] herman Bergson: now we are climbing up again from a historical perspective to see what is good and what is wrong with the system
[13:42] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): I want to listen to the rest of your lectures Herman
[13:43] herman Bergson: Basically I may be critical, but I am still optimistic about the homo sapiens and its ability to adapt to new situations
[13:43] Bijou Krokus: I hope you can make us feel that way too Herman
[13:43] Caresse (caresse.czeret): I have to go..can I come again to listen Herman?
[13:44] herman Bergson: So...thank you all for your attention and participation today again....
[13:44] Bijou Krokus: thansk so much for the lesson Herman
[13:44] herman Bergson: Every Tuesday and Thursday Caresse
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] Bijou Krokus: bye bye caresse!
[13:44] herman Bergson: 1 PM SL time
[13:44] Caresse (caresse.czeret): bye :))
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: makes you think a lot about stuff for sure
[13:44] bombay1: thanks Herman!!! bye caresse...
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] herman Bergson: class dismissed... ^_^

396: The Utopia of the Free Market - Karl Paul Polanyi

Karl Paul Polanyi ( 1886, - 1964) was a Hungarian philosopher, political economist and economic historian known for his opposition to traditional economic thought and his book The Great Transformation (1944).

Polanyi is remembered today as the originator of substantivism, a cultural approach to economics, which emphasized the way economies are embedded in society and culture.

In his long career as economist and antropologist he witnessed a number of crises of capitalism. In his opinion, these crises were characteristic for a free market economy.

We only can escape from them by stopping to bet on just that one horse and give room to other methods of economical thought and action, which we know from history.

Because, as he writes in "Ökonomie und Gesellschaft" (1979) that as people of today " we are made dumb by the domination of the market system, that imposes upon us extremely simplified ideas about the function and role of the economic live in a society."

Note the year, when these words were published ! 1979! Now we have reached 2012 and his words are even more to the point today than in 1979.

An example of the effect of these free market blinkers you can see in Dutch politics. Literally everything is motivated and justified by referring to the benefits of the free market.

Postal services, telecom, public transportation, healthcare, just name it and you'll hear politicians say: we need competition and and a free market in those fields, we need privatization there. This will improve the quality of such services.

So far the result is disastrous. managers go home with fat bonuses, the quality did not improve at all. Things got worse. Some of the services just made deals about pricing among each other to make their customers pay too much for the services, and so on.

Greed and envy are stimulated by this one-dimensional free market belief. Belief in social solidarity is completely drowned by this one-dimensional belief. The only question that seems to count these days is: how much does it cost?

Let's look at the past and ask the question, how production, distribution and consumption of goods was organized in those days.

What we call today economics or economic theory came only slowly into existence since the 16th century and became an independent theoretical realm with the work of Adam Smith 1723 - 1790). We'll get to him later.

Before this period, what we call economics, was emdeded in religious rituals, moral obligations, magic actions, that is, it was embeded in culture,

or to say it in a more contemporary way, profit maximization to pay your shareholders was not a target or issue in those days.

Every human group has to solve two tasks:
1. The community must develop a system to produce goods and services which are needed for its survival.

2. It must organize the distribution of the fruits of its production in such a way that the production process can continue.

In our society both tasked are performed by the market process. To the market of goods and services is added a financial and labor market, which guarantee the distribution and continuation of the capitalist production process.

Polanyi points at three different mechanisms that organized historical societies to perform the two tasks I mentioned: reciprocity, redistribution and the common household.

Within this framework were orderly production and distribution secured. There may have been a lot of individual motives to do so in a group, but a drive to make a profit was not an important motive in those days.

Next lecture I'll elaborate on these three mechanisms, which Polanyi mentions and how they organized for instance Ancient Greek and Medieval societies.


The Discussion

[13:22] Qwark Allen: nice
[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡
[13:22] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:23] Mick Nerido: why do ou think the profit motive is so dominant?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Feel free to ask questions or add to the lecture
[13:23] Qwark Allen: how we get rid of the money? like we see in sci fi movies
[13:24] herman Bergson: Why is making profit so dominant...
[13:24] herman Bergson: that relates to Qwarks remark....
[13:24] herman Bergson: the point is.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: in the Roman age or in the Middle Ages was accumulation of money was not a general goal
[13:25] herman Bergson: the function of money was different from now, therefore.
[13:25] Mick Nerido: There was no middle class...
[13:25] herman Bergson: And today money is power....
[13:26] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): can we ever go back?
[13:26] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Do we want to?
[13:26] herman Bergson: Good question Beertje.....
[13:26] Qwark Allen: a society that lives on the exchange of services for free?
[13:26] herman Bergson: It is not necessary to go back...as if it was so much better in the past....
[13:27] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): i don't think it was better..only different
[13:27] herman Bergson: It is more a matter of adjusting the system to a social survival
[13:27] Mick Nerido: A lot of bartering...
[13:28] herman Bergson: Just keep in mind that the whole western economy was at the edge of the abbys....
[13:28] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): the ones who have the power (money) now..do they want to adjust the system to a social survival?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Governments...that means our taxmoney , had to save banks from collapsing
[13:29] herman Bergson: That is one of the issues Beertje....
[13:29] herman Bergson: The bankers havent learnt a thing.....for them it is business as usual again...
[13:29] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:29] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): they didn't learn anything of the past at all
[13:29] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): As it ever has been
[13:30] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): it's not the first time in history
[13:30] Mick Nerido: The problem is interest earned on money...
[13:30] herman Bergson: A fact is that the politicians have given the wrong signal.....
[13:30] herman Bergson: Banks can stay arrogant, because, when they are near collapse the government will keep them alive
[13:31] herman Bergson: I dont know the reason behind such behavior....
[13:31] Qwark Allen: the ones on the government, work on banks too
[13:31] herman Bergson: Fat bonuses?
[13:31] herman Bergson: Greed...
[13:31] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): ofcourse
[13:31] Qwark Allen: some have a lot invested there to
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Banks take our money give us low intrest and lend out money at higher interest...
[13:32] Qwark Allen: they are like the best friends
[13:32] herman Bergson: I only see that this belief in the Free market does not work....
[13:33] Qwark Allen: i think the lack of regulations was the issue
[13:33] Qwark Allen: free, but regulated
[13:33] herman Bergson: but that politicians use the market idea as a medicine for weverything
[13:33] Qwark Allen: not a anarchy, like is now
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Qwark....
[13:33] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): How are the politcal parties funded in your country Herman?
[13:33] Mick Nerido: Banks fail when there is a failure of confidence and everyone wants to take their money out of the banks...
[13:33] herman Bergson: and that is the big question....how much regulation...
[13:34] Qwark Allen: i think when ayn rand thought about free market, she said, the government was only a regulation organism
[13:34] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): too much regulation is not freedom at all
[13:34] herman Bergson: parties are funded by the government, by fees from members and sometimes donations
[13:34] Qwark Allen: we saw the opposite of anarchy, in the eastern countries
[13:35] Qwark Allen: where government regulated to much, didn`t work too
[13:35] Qwark Allen: i think there should be a half way term to deal with the situation
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes Qwark....that overregulation deprives people from a feeling of responsibility for their society
[13:35] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): And so parties are funded by people with vested interests, Hedgefund Managers, Bankers and Trades Unions?
[13:36] Qwark Allen: what we saw in 20th century was the 2 opposites of market regaultion
[13:36] herman Bergson: Not in the Netherlands....
[13:36] Qwark Allen: no balance
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): K
[13:36] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): That is the case in England
[13:36] herman Bergson: ah yes..the diner parties with Cameron scandal...
[13:37] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): and the cash for honours, lets not let the other parties off.
[13:37] herman Bergson: of course we have lobbyists here too
[13:37] Mick Nerido: Inflation is another problem...
[13:38] herman Bergson: When we'll have a closer look how the situation was historically , maybe we find some new ideas for our economic system...
[13:38] Qwark Allen: true
[13:38] herman Bergson: At least there is one big difference withb the past.....
[13:38] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): i think the politicians won't listen to other ideas
[13:39] Qwark Allen: how to find a balance between free market and regulation? what kind of new regulations we need?
[13:39] Qwark Allen: or regulation mechanisms
[13:39] herman Bergson: Financial markets have become a goal in themselves....as if they are no part of our culture
[13:40] herman Bergson: in the past there was no such thing as an independent economic entity...
[13:40] herman Bergson: Next lecture you'll hear about that in more detail...
[13:40] Qwark Allen: cool
[13:41] Mick Nerido: No Corporations?
[13:41] herman Bergson: It is a general trend that the system doesnt listen to its citizens....
[13:41] herman Bergson: let me give you a stupid example....
[13:41] Qwark Allen: eheheh to start doesn`t sound good
[13:42] herman Bergson: There is a shipyard which has an allowance to build ships up to 110m long....
[13:42] herman Bergson: now due to the crisis there is no work anymore....
[13:42] herman Bergson: except an order for two ships of 135m long....
[13:42] herman Bergson: You wont believe it but the munici[al officials forbid it....
[13:43] herman Bergson: 110 no 135....
[13:43] herman Bergson: result is that the company will go bankrupt and 60 people loose their job if the system doesnt give in
[13:43] herman Bergson: Was in the news today.....
[13:43] herman Bergson: I find it symptomatic....
[13:44] herman Bergson: The system and its regulations havs become a goal as such.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: not its social intentions....
[13:45] herman Bergson: regulations...yes...but how to apply regulations?
[13:45] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): it seems those people don't think anymore
[13:45] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): That may not be the end of the story though Herman, you will have to update us.
[13:45] herman Bergson: civil servants are scared like hell for casuistics...
[13:45] herman Bergson: casuistics
[13:46] herman Bergson: The only one who isnt is the judge in a court
[13:47] Mick Nerido: casuistics?
[13:47] herman Bergson: Well..before you all fall asleep...thank you all for your participation ㋡
[13:47] Haresaaiemeid Beer (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:47] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman!
[13:47] herman Bergson: YEs MIck...it means that you have to treart every situation as a casus/case in itself.....and use judgement in applying rules and regulations....
[13:48] Velvet (velvet.braham): I AM falling asleep, but it's my allergy meds, not you!
[13:48] herman Bergson: Like the 110/135m issue....
[13:48] herman Bergson: ok Velvet....
[13:48] Mick Nerido: sounds like red tape to me lol
[13:48] Velvet (velvet.braham): please excuse me, everyone
[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes Mick.....not a rational application of rules...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Sweet dreams Velvet
[13:49] herman Bergson: So again thank you all
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:49] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thank you Herman
[13:50] Mick Nerido: I will be on a road trip thursday, sorry to miss that class :(
[13:50] herman Bergson: A pitty Mick...but we still have our blog

395: The Utopia of the Free Market - Gross National Happiness

In a previous lecture I already remarked that many people think, that the free market is an objective process.

Nobody seems to be responsible for the ideology and the Utopia behind it. There is not such a thing like "The Communist Manifesto" (1848).

I have shown you that this is a mistake. "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) by Ayn Rand is the Capitalist Manifesto, the perfect expression of the utopian ideas, on which capitalism and free market thinking is based.

On a UN- conference a few weeks ago Prime Minister Thinley of Buthan, a small state in the Himalayas between India and China, said the following:

" The economic model, that uses the Gross National Product as the standard, that pursues unlimited growth on a planet with limited resources has become absurd. (…) It is the cause of our irresponsible, immoral and self-destructive actions."

For that reason the government in Buthan has stopped assessing the quality of life and general wealth and welfare by the Gross National Product. It now uses the Gross National Happiness.

The assessment of Gross National Happiness (GNH) was designed in an attempt to define an indicator

that measures quality of life or social progress in more holistic and psychological terms than only the economic indicator of Gross National Product (GNP).

Gross National Product (GNP) is the market value of all products and services produced in one year by labour and property supplied by the residents of a country.

Unlike Gross Domestic Product (GDP), now in us by the US, which defines production based on the geographical location of production, GNP allocates production based on ownership.

So, it seems possible to do politics, not obsessed by percentages of economic growth, but by defining a standard of happiness of your inhabitants as leading principle.

And then here we are with our belief in the Free Market as if it were a law of nature. What is really questionable, is,

that the processes of the Free Market are controlled by the homo economicus, who is mainly after his self-interest using rational choices.

There is this peculiar conviction, that the human being is a rational being. Of course, some of our actions are based on rationality, where Rand would say that this means the use of logic only.

But what we call economy, is always embedded in a total of religious and cultural structures. Nowhere you find a stand-alone system of rational economic choices and calculations, which are independent of social relations.

Every economic phenomenon - production, distribution, market, pricing, exchange, etc. - can only be understood within its own context.

Nowhere we find a general, universal and abstract economic logic, which can be applied to all these features alike in different societies.

The currently recognized version of the Seven Capital Sins are usually given as wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.

Our current economic system even stimulates at least two of them in the homo economicus: greed and envy.
-- I also want car and at least bigger than the one of my neighbor. --

This possessive and jealous individualism has become a characteristic of our free market culture, decorated with an "every man for himself" attitude.

Is this a logical consequence of economic relations? What are the basics of economics and , from a historical perspective, has it always (necessarily) been this way? We still have to cover a lot of ground, I'd say.



The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡
[13:19] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have some sympathy for the free market being a law of nature, e.g. consider Auctions.
[13:19] Mick Nerido: There is a consumer confidence index that measures how optomistic or pesimistic people are...
[13:19] herman Bergson: Don't misunderstand me.....
[13:20] herman Bergson: I do not look for a moral judgement on the Free Market...
[13:20] herman Bergson: In a philosophical sense I just want to know what it really IS....
[13:20] herman Bergson: and so far I have shown that it is a situation driven by utopian ideas and expectations
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: what is the motivating force for the market Herman? doesn't envy and greed play an important role?
[13:21] herman Bergson: the free market in NOT self regulating as for instance Greenspan thought
[13:22] Bhelle Alacrity: Could I ask the Professor a question?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy....that is what is at stake here..if you take into account the financial crises
[13:22] herman Bergson: Sure Bhelle
[13:22] Bhelle Alacrity: If you for example want to get a knife sharpened
[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: people seem to confound happiness with richness
[13:22] Bhelle Alacrity: How should the orice for that be set ?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Could you ask your question without using a metaphore Bhelle?
[13:23] Bhelle Alacrity: There must be some mechanism
[13:23] Mick Nerido: Think of the free market as two prize fighters without a refferie!
[13:23] herman Bergson: I dont know what an orice is
[13:24] Bhelle Alacrity: What would it be without a market place
[13:24] herman Bergson: yes mick....
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): price?
[13:24] herman Bergson: Again ...don't misunderstand me...
[13:24] Bhelle Alacrity: For example what did they do in the Soviet Union to set the price for sharpening a knife
[13:24] Bhelle Alacrity: Wonders
[13:24] herman Bergson: I do not judge the phenomenon of the free market as good or bad....
[13:25] herman Bergson: that is completely uninteresting...
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Don't you think that an auction is a good example of things finding their proper value?
[13:25] herman Bergson: Complex question Merlin.....
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hmm
[13:25] herman Bergson: Just be patient with me for a moment....
[13:25] herman Bergson: There are a lot of issues here...
[13:26] herman Bergson: To begin with ...the concept of 'just price'
[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): Value is badly represented at auctions - there is no reference to cost to society
[13:26] herman Bergson: I'll get to that in coming lectures
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): economics is such a complicated thing to understand ...
[13:26] herman Bergson: Then there is the relation between resources and property....
[13:27] herman Bergson: Who owns the water of the sea.....
[13:27] herman Bergson: How can you own a piece of land...?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Then there is the issue of labor...
[13:27] herman Bergson: labor invested in making a product
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that was the native american belief
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Land is a good example there
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): cannot really own the land
[13:28] Mick Nerido: the concept of private property did not always exist...
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Like if you bought all the land of a country would you be its ruler?
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): No
[13:28] Mick Nerido: the king gave it to his supporters
[13:29] herman Bergson: then take the biblical idea that we are just stewards of this earth....
[13:30] herman Bergson: What I want to say is that in a next lecture I'll like to investigate the concept of economics.
[13:30] Bhelle Alacrity: Professor
[13:30] herman Bergson: what are the basic concepts of economics...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Bhelle...go ahead
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh good!!!!!
[13:30] Bhelle Alacrity: I'm sure you'll excuse me when I say that I think I own a piece of land
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:31] Bhelle Alacrity: maybe I'm mistaken?
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nopeyoudo
[13:31] herman Bergson: No...of course you can own land....
[13:31] Bhelle Alacrity: I see
[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Seems a bit like land ownership in SL.
[13:31] Bhelle Alacrity: Confused
[13:31] herman Bergson: it means that you have property rights on it which others have not on that land....
[13:31] Mick Nerido: you own what the government recognizes you own
[13:31] herman Bergson: You can plant there your crop...for instance
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yeah I like that explanation
[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): And leave it to your kids
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): You cant keep the cops out though
[13:32] Mick Nerido: There are also mineral rights on land...
[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I think humans are territorial; as are many other species
[13:32] herman Bergson: John Locke said that you can only own so much land as you can work on....if I am not mistaken...
[13:33] herman Bergson: A cute idea..but relative...
[13:33] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): by hand of with machines?
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes, and perhaps with workers too
[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): Or with capital-- better question
[13:33] herman Bergson: I have seen fields with 14 combiners in a line harvesting the wheat
[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think Locke was flawed there
[13:34] Mick Nerido: you can own only as much land as how much land tax you can afford
[13:34] herman Bergson: taxes is another chapter Mick....
[13:35] Mick Nerido: it means the gov really owns the land!
[13:35] Bhelle Alacrity: Professor?
[13:35] herman Bergson: So plz.....we really need some more time then our 30 to 50 minutes to deal with all the issues you bring up now ^_^
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no i think not
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): We dont have land tax in UK
[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): Or in south africa
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: lucky you!
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): taxes for example will take care of a road so you can get to the land
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have....
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or protection for the land
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or fire fighters
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): etc
[13:36] Bhelle Alacrity: Professor you said that there was no manifesto like the Communist Manifesto
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But, the cost of access is not proportional to the size of the land
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes I did
[13:37] Bhelle Alacrity: I wonder what you think of Hayeks' "Road to Serfdom"
[13:37] Bhelle Alacrity: It seem to have some of the qualities of a manifesto
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes that is one....the Manifesto I mentioned was "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand
[13:37] herman Bergson: a milllion bestseller in the US
[13:38] herman Bergson: I recently read about the book Bhelle....
[13:38] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Were she still alive I suspect Ayn might rewrite some of it.
[13:38] herman Bergson: Hayek is a supporter of the free market
[13:39] herman Bergson: Interesting remark Annie....
[13:39] herman Bergson: yes I would love to have heard her opinion about the current situation
[13:39] herman Bergson: But she died in 1982
[13:40] herman Bergson: Well..tons of issues still to deal with.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: So, you may expect a lot more lectures...
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:40] Mick Nerido: Thank you Professor
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yay.
[13:40] herman Bergson: I thank you for your inspiring discussion...
[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herma
[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for now
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: Thank youu!
[13:41] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: A wonderful Easter for you all!
[13:41] herman Bergson: Tank you Lizzy...
[13:41] herman Bergson: You too..
[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh yes..... May the bunny come with many eggs :)
[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you:-)
[13:41] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): It would be interesting for the class to write down their idea of a utopian world and then we could all compare notes
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: yes debbie!
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Please excuse me I have a disco waiting :)
[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Herman, Mick, and girls hehe
[13:42] herman Bergson: laughs...
[13:42] herman Bergson: Ok Annie...
[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bye merlin
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Thanks again Herman
[13:42] Bhelle Alacrity: Oh dear'
[13:42] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): homework Annie?
[13:42] herman Bergson: My pleasure Annie
[13:43] Bhelle Alacrity: I wish I was still a girl
[13:43] herman Bergson: Your idea is nice Debbie
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): see you next week
[13:43] herman Bergson: but really difficult
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): oh Thank you herman
[13:43] Bhelle Alacrity: Bye everybody
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye belle, lizzy and herman
[13:44] herman Bergson: Most op the time a utopia story is a book of not less than 250 pages ㋡

394: The Utopia of the Free Market - Who is guilty?

My thesis for this project is, that the idea of the Free Market as a kind of natural process based on the rational actions of man, is a utopia.

I focused on the immense popularity of the novel "Altas Shrugged" (1957) by Ayn Rand as the description of a modern Utopia.

Did this novel cause the financial crises of today? Of course not, but the novel appealed to basic ideas and sentiments of American culture.

European culture lacks the attitudes to which "Atlas Shrugged" appeals. . This resulted in the fact, that Ayn Rand is an almost unknown novelist in Europe.

Yet Europe has to deal with the same financial crises as the US. So what is going on? In general you could interpret the situation thus.

Ronald Reagan, president of the US from 1981 to 1989 and Margaret Thatcher, prime minister of the UK from 1979 to 1990 have laid the foundations of the breakdown of the welfare state - that applies mainly to Europe - and an increased economic individualism.

Thatcher got her inspiration from her visits to the Institute of Economic Affairs, where she learned a lot of Friedrich Hayek, a top economist.

Hayek was concerned "with that condition of men in which coercion of some by others is reduced as much as is possible in society"

Or the miracles of the free market in Hayek's words, "The marvel is that in a case like that of a scarcity of one raw material, without an order being issued, without more than perhaps a handful of people knowing the cause,

tens of thousands of people whose identity could not be ascertained by months of investigation, are made to use the material or its products more sparingly; that is, they move in the right direction."

The idea of markets automatically channeling self-interest toward socially desirable ends is a central justification for the laissez-faire economic philosophy.

In alternative models, forces which were such as large-scale industry, finance, and advertising reduce its effectiveness however.

Economists who emphasize the distorting effects of these forces include Marx and Keynes. Thence a government has to interfere and regulate the market.

Keep in mind, that economists see the free market is some kind of natural process, which takes care of a fair distribution of supplies,

based on prices which are determined by supply and demand. And this all executed by the rational human being.

Thence Thatcher in the UK. Her political philosophy and economic policies emphasized deregulation (particularly of the financial sector like Reagan did), flexible labour markets,

the privatization of state-owned companies, and reducing the power and influence of trade unions. She became the face of the ideological movement opposing the welfare state based on Keynesian economics.

In other European countries this neoliberalism has stealthily, motivated by pragmatic steps, made a big push, like in the Netherlands.

So different from the US, where the "Atlas Shrugged" bravado was recognized and embraced by a large group as the answer to collectivism.

For, in essence, "Atlas Shrugged" derived its appeal from its anti-collectivism message and arguments of the economists against the communist planned economy.

It all boils down to two utopias: the collectivist Utopia and the capitalist Utopia. Symbolically November 9 1989 the capitalist Utopia won, when the Wall in Berlin went down.

And as a matter of fact, in the US people are fighting against a basic healthcare for every citizen and in Europe we are facing the decline of the welfare state in honor of privatization and the free market.

We really have to dig deeper into this issue to unmask our current Utopia and try to understand what economics really is about.


The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you...
[13:20] herman Bergson: The floor is yours....
[13:20] herman Bergson: Well..if you have any questions or remarks of course ^_^
[13:21] Mick Nerido: supply and demand is the concept i an familiar with...
[13:21] Tessa Zalivstok: of course the missing element here is that Marx's Utopia impoverished whole continents
[13:21] Tessa Zalivstok: do you have a view on that herman?
[13:21] herman Bergson: Oh yes....
[13:21] herman Bergson: that utopia didn't work....
[13:22] Tessa Zalivstok: no
[13:22] herman Bergson: simple as that....
[13:22] Tessa Zalivstok: not just didn't work
[13:22] Tessa Zalivstok: failed spectacularly
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: do any utopias work?
[13:22] herman Bergson: we are social beings...but that doesn't mean we are collective beings like bees in a hive
[13:22] Mick Nerido: why did it fail?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...we are working on that....
[13:23] Tessa Zalivstok: you have to look at the most successful non Utopia in the world I think
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: for now to me utopia describes something perfect
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: like a perfect or ideal machine
[13:23] Tessa Zalivstok: the British Constitution
[13:23] Tessa Zalivstok: which isn't written
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and that is impossible, with no losses and so
[13:23] Trisk (triskelion): Human nature we are evolved selfish so collectivism was doomed to fail. The reality is that we all strive to get the most for ourselves out of the system.
[13:24] herman Bergson: yes Trisk....something in that direction....
[13:24] herman Bergson: But there is also something like solidarity in with the group
[13:24] Mick Nerido: The Chinese have a hybred communist capitalistic system
[13:24] Tessa Zalivstok: what does that mean herman?
[13:24] herman Bergson: so it doesn't necessarily be only getting out of the system everything for yourself
[13:25] Trisk (triskelion): As long as solidarity is actually perceived to benefit the individual yes.
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: perhaps this doesn't work in big groups like a nation
[13:25] oola Neruda: not everyone is after "self" there are people who care about others
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes oola....
[13:25] herman Bergson: Altruism is a special subject in this context....
[13:25] Tessa Zalivstok: could I get back to my question
[13:25] herman Bergson: yes Tessa…
[13:25] herman Bergson: repeat plz ㋡
[13:26] Tessa Zalivstok: do you have a view on the British constitution which has deluvered peaceful government for 400 years?
[13:26] Tessa Zalivstok: but which is unwritten
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: it has not Tessa
[13:26] oola Neruda: i do not see the british as all that peaceful
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: stable transitions of power with put insurrection
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: look what the english did in the colonies
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: where else has that happened?
[13:27] herman Bergson: Isn't the Magna Carta from 1265 or so the basis of the British constitution?
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: no
[13:27] Tessa Zalivstok: the basis of the British constitution is unwritten
[13:27] oola Neruda: divine right of kings... don't need a constitution
[13:27] herman Bergson: But we had Cromwell for instance...
[13:28] herman Bergson: The glorious Revolution next
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: it's the settlement after the civil war and the glorious revolution of 1699
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: yes
[13:28] Trisk (triskelion): The civil was brought an end to the divine right of kings to rule.
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: thats the point
[13:28] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:28] Trisk (triskelion): In Britain
[13:28] herman Bergson: I am not an historian....
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: after that they decided that they hated each other but that the alternatives were worse
[13:28] herman Bergson: But traditions are unwritten rules ...
[13:28] Tessa Zalivstok: complete pragmatism
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: maybe thats what we want
[13:29] Tessa Zalivstok: institutionalized warfare without guns
[13:29] herman Bergson: It only shows that we as social beings are really capable of something
[13:29] oola Neruda: look what they did to countries all over the world... "looking down" upon those whom they colonized
[13:29] oola Neruda: ghandi... did not do what he did for no reason
[13:30] Trisk (triskelion): A fine illustration of what I meant by the selfish nature of humanity
[13:30] herman Bergson: smile
[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes oola...good point....
[13:30] Trisk (triskelion): Might makes right.
[13:30] herman Bergson: nice at home and bad abroad then
[13:31] herman Bergson: But our issue here is the utopia of the free market...
[13:31] herman Bergson: and in relation to that ...who caused it....
[13:31] Trisk (triskelion): It's large in history that those who can take from those who cannot. And surely this is the true agenda of the capitalist utopia?
[13:31] herman Bergson: and there I gave you two names...
[13:31] herman Bergson: Reagan and Thatcher
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry?
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: lost here
[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Neither were in power when it collapsed
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: what did Maggie and Ronnie do that was so wrong?
[13:32] herman Bergson: No Annie but they laid the foundations for the collapse
[13:32] oola Neruda: they were at the start of the mess.. rather than the end
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: other than get their countries out of mega ruts?
[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): No they inherited the mess
[13:32] Tessa Zalivstok: oh rubbish herman
[13:33] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): No one in England should forget the winter of discontent
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: tell me exactly what you'd have done to prevent this ?mess"
[13:33] Qwark Allen: nothing
[13:33] herman Bergson: The stimulate deregulation and privatization....gave the banks all freedom on the financial markets
[13:33] Qwark Allen: that was the purpose
[13:33] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry?
[13:34] Trisk (triskelion): The free market is just a way of clearing the way for the exploitation of the many by the few. If you see it in this context you can understand why it does what it does. The privatization for example they ask them selves how can we make more money for ourselves and the plunder the nations resources.y
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: all I'm hearing here is slogans
[13:34] Tessa Zalivstok: can we get a little specific please?
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Trisk....
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: which regulation would you bring back
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: what effect would this have?
[13:35] oola Neruda: Tessa...what is your view of it
[13:35] Trisk (triskelion): Yes I have just lost my job because the government off the UK closed the public Forensic service and gave the business to its friends in private industry.
[13:35] Trisk (triskelion): Is that specific enough?
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: the absence if which regulations caused the "mess"
[13:35] herman Bergson: Well for instance all regulations that forbid banks to create derivates
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: why?
[13:35] Mick Nerido: after the 2nd WW the world economies diverged...
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: sorry
[13:35] Tessa Zalivstok: I want to hear why
[13:36] herman Bergson: regulations that forbid banks to sell mortgages to people that they KNOW, can not pay them in th elong rin
[13:36] Tessa Zalivstok: derivatives have been around forever
[13:36] Tessa Zalivstok: now we're getting specific
[13:36] herman Bergson: regulations that forbid banks to offer loans to people who can not repay them////
[13:36] Tessa Zalivstok: how would you determine who could pay?
[13:36] oola Neruda: Tesa... have you been following the problems of the economic collapse... as related to the banks
[13:37] Trisk (triskelion): Personal experience my bank actually told me to lie about my earnings to secure a mortgage.
[13:37] oola Neruda: it was more than just who could not pay
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: oh I worked in one for the period before the crisis
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: I know perfectly well about their regulation
[13:37] oola Neruda: there was a great deal of stuff going on that was under the radar
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: I happen to agree that they should separate things that financial institutions do
[13:37] oola Neruda: on wall st too
[13:37] Tessa Zalivstok: but banks have collapsed forever
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: I can give you a long list
[13:38] oola Neruda: they were not too big to fail ...in the past
[13:38] Mick Nerido: banks got too big
[13:38] herman Bergson: yes Tessa...
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: none of this is fundamental to the issue in hand
[13:38] herman Bergson: and now it is the taxpayer who keeps them standing....!
[13:38] herman Bergson: Oh it IS fundamental....
[13:38] Tessa Zalivstok: history tells us that bank collapses, systemic bank collapses, happen on average ecvery fifty years
[13:38] oola Neruda: TESSA WHAT DO YOU THINK... why do you question... what is it you would propose
[13:39] herman Bergson: for at the end it is us the taxpayer who pay the bill...
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: what I will say
[13:39] herman Bergson: We omnly are producing the money to keep the system going by our labor
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: generalizations about niceness and cooperation never make a financial system
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: before banks were for us now we are for the banks
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: wherever you live you need a financial system
[13:39] Mick Nerido: no one really knows how the economy really works lol
[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: some managers let collapse their bank to get tax money
[13:39] Tessa Zalivstok: otherwise your money stays in your sock
[13:40] oola Neruda: stocks collapsed too
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: which doesnt work all that well
[13:40] herman Bergson: Ok Tessa...I'll serve you well in the next lectures....
[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): At least I don't have to pay my sock fees to keep my money there.
[13:40] herman Bergson: there I'll discuss the concept of what a Financial System is
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: you can't have philosophy that ignores money and how it circulates
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aa or the classic one
[13:40] Tessa Zalivstok: it's an essential part of life
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: having the money in the mattress
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: good
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: I'd like to hear that
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well..this all sounds good....!
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: and I'd like to hear you discuss the non classical financial systems too
[13:41] Tessa Zalivstok: the Marxist one in particular
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: we had 90 odd years of that so it shouldn't be too difficult
[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: and black money market, giggle
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: yes
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: black markets
[13:42] herman Bergson: well..I'll do my best but I am educated in philosophy and not economy Tessa....
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: very important
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:42] Tessa Zalivstok: but my point is how can you talk philosophy of large systems without talking about money
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: Jesus Christ used denarii
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: he even spoke abut them
[13:43] oola Neruda: so far we have been trying to understand the rand philosophy
[13:43] herman Bergson: I have no problem to insert a series of lectures on money....
[13:43] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): He didn't like money lenders as I recall
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: nope
[13:43] oola Neruda: that was the impetus for the last number of lectures
[13:43] Tessa Zalivstok: drove em pout of the temple with whips
[13:44] Tessa Zalivstok: maybe thats an alternative.....
[13:44] herman Bergson: Indeed oola....
[13:44] herman Bergson: our primary subject was the philosophical antropology of Rand
[13:44] oola Neruda: and we have digressed in such a way as to ignore the subject that was intended for these lectures
[13:44] herman Bergson: and to what conclusions that would lead....
[13:45] herman Bergson: The basic idea is that at this moment GREED rules the waves
[13:45] oola Neruda: the world economy was not the subject... rand was the subject
[13:45] Qwark Allen: i think where both failed was about regulations! one with to much, the other with to few
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aaa
[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....THAT is my main target..... the role of governmental regulations in economics
[13:46] Qwark Allen: is there a way of balancing it?
[13:46] oola Neruda: that does not mean the world's financial systems are not important...they are...
[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes THAT is the question....
[13:46] herman Bergson: What we see today is that it is out of balance!
[13:46] Tessa Zalivstok: yes but you have to be specific
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aa yes the regulations seem a tricky subject for sure however without proper and in correct amount
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: the system wouldn't work
[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): tax the richest to help the poorest? Robin Hood
[13:46] oola Neruda: yes...specific to the subject of the lectures
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: I can tell you now that the financial system is regulated to death
[13:47] Qwark Allen: i know hermann, i understand the idea of reagan and thatcher! they were the ones that begin this neo economist regulations era
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: its so tricky, i don't get really how it works
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hard subject
[13:47] herman Bergson: exactly....
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: the compliance officer's role has gone from nothing 50nyears ago to whole departments
[13:47] Tessa Zalivstok: that seems to speak against the idea of no regulation of the system
[13:48] Tessa Zalivstok: so maybe it's specifics
[13:48] Qwark Allen: i think there should be a balance
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:48] Qwark Allen: regulated "free market"
[13:48] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:48] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:48] herman Bergson: What I try to find out Qwark...
[13:48] Velvet (velvet.braham): Unfortunately, in the USA, those who make laws & regulations are heavily influenced by the richest most powerful people & companies.
[13:48] herman Bergson: is how we can find this balance....
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: without regulation would be like tjernobyl = KABOOOM
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: and thats what we sort of see today
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: a runaway with no control and greed taking over
[13:48] oola Neruda: yes Velvet
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: not good
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well Velvet.....
[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): The fox is guarding the henhouse!
[13:49] herman Bergson: Robin Hood tax.....
[13:49] oola Neruda: with fine print
[13:49] herman Bergson: Let's think about that....
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: we need a new Robin Hood for sure
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:49] Mick Nerido: Markets change very quickly with computer running them
[13:49] herman Bergson: some person gets rich because he let's people work for him for low wages...and he takes all profits.
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes the "stock robots"
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: as they call them
[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): I nominate Bejiita to be our Robin Hood.
[13:50] herman Bergson: Agreed!
[13:50] herman Bergson: ♫♪♫♪ ♪♫♪♫ APPLAUSE ♪♫♪♫ ♫♪♫♪
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I have seen him with a bow and arrow; not sure that is such a good idea
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: id always wished I could do something indeed
[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): There's nothing wrong with a business owner profiting
[13:51] herman Bergson: Look at Apple and its Taiwanese factories where people work 18 hours a day or so for shameful wages...
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: getting tired of this unfair economic mess of today where a few takes everything from everyone else
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: want a more fair world
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: in general
[13:51] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....
[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): oh, Herman, that's opening a can of worms!
[13:51] herman Bergson: in essence it is about a fair sharing of recourses in this world
[13:52] Mick Nerido: a fair world, now that is a utopia!
[13:52] herman Bergson: hastely puts the lid on it again
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: unfortunatley seems so today :(
[13:52] Velvet (velvet.braham): and we're back on the topic of utopia!
[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: if you have a bigger risk and a better education why shoudn't you earn more money
[13:52] Velvet (velvet.braham): I agree, Lizzy
[13:52] herman Bergson: Exactly Velvet..>!!!!!
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: because everything have been going in wrong direction as far i know
[13:53] herman Bergson: Well, dear class...
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ahhh
[13:53] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!
[13:53] herman Bergson: we could go on for ever in our attempts to save the world....
[13:53] herman Bergson: Let's save some gunpowder for a next battle...:-)
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:53] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:53] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:53] herman Bergson: May I thank you all for this fantastic discussion....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: interesting for sure ㋡
[13:53] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:54] Tessa Zalivstok: thanks herman
[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ok cu next time

393: The Utopia of the Free Market - Ayn Rand

Who was this woman, Ayn Rand, whose ideas had and still have such an impact on minds of Americans, but, tho she already was dead, on economical and governmental ideas in Europe too later, for instance in the person of Margaret Thatcher.

Born (1905) and educated in Russia, Rand,born Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum, moved to the United States in 1926. She worked as a screenwriter in Hollywood and had a play produced on Broadway in 1935–1936.

After two initially unsuccessful early novels, she achieved fame with her 1943 novel The Fountainhead. In 1957, she published her best-known work, the philosophical novel Atlas Shrugged.

Afterward she turned to nonfiction to promote her philosophy, publishing her own magazines and releasing several collections of essays until her death in 1982.

She had two favorite philosophers: Aristotle and Nietzsche. The first one she admired because of his realism and his logic. The second had a great influence on her with his theory of the übermensch.

Especially because her view of man, as described in her novel "Atlas Shrugged", there had developed a myth around her person. However, by far she isn't the Dagny Taggert in the novel.

From Heller's biography on Rand we learn, that in 1926 Rand's relatives had supported her and lent her money to give her the opportunity to continue to Hollywood.

Not only Rand forgot to pay back her loans, but she also told the story about herself that she was the complete self-made woman.

This fit with her basic idea about man: "I will never live for the sake of another, nor ask another man to live for mine." So she never liked to say "Thank you for your help"

In 1951 Rand moved from Los Angeles to New York City, where she gathered a group of admirers around her. Her novel "The Fountainhead" (1943) had given her many fans and supporters.

Among these fans were Allen Greenspan and Nathan Blumenthal (later Nathaniel Branden) and his wife Barbara.

In 1954 Rand's close relationship with the much younger Nathaniel Branden turned into a romantic affair, with the consent of their spouses. Rand was married herself to Frank O'Connor. Watch the movie "The passion of Ayn Rand"

Her Objectivism got more and more the characteristics of a cult. She became the guru of her group and tolerated no contradiction. Members of the group who yet tried, were banned from the group.

Even her lover Branden, whom she owed in fact so much because of his organizational talent, was banned eventually in 1968, when he fell in love with a younger member of the group.

Although her work has been greatly ignored by the academic world, she promoted her Objectivist philosophy among other things by giving talks to students at institutions such as Yale University, Princeton University, Columbia University,Harvard University and MIT.

As a typical example of Randian thinking this: Despite her negative views about the morality of homosexuality, Rand took a much more tolerant view of the legal rights of homosexuals.

She endorsed rights that protect gays from discrimination by the government (such as apartheid), but rejected the right to be protected from discrimination in the private sector (such as employment discrimination).

The basis of this conclusion was not related to her feelings about homosexuality, but rather a product of her stand on property rights.

Rand supported the right of a private property owner to discriminate, even on a basis that she condemned as immoral, such as racism, and that any act of the government to change this would be an intrusion on individual rights.

And if you want to know how man and woman will live together in her Atlantis: Rand asserted that "the essence of femininity is hero worship — the desire to look up to man" and that "an ideal woman is a man-worshipper, and an ideal man is the highest symbol of mankind."

In other words, Rand felt that it was part of human nature for a psychologically healthy woman to want to be ruled in sexual matters by a man worthy of ruling her.

These are only details about the woman, Ayn Rand. YouTube, Google and dozens of other URLs can provide you with further information.


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours
[13:24] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If I crash its because I spilt tea on my keyboard
[13:25] herman Bergson: Thought so....:-))
[13:25] Mick Nerido: Why do u think she was so influential in America?
[13:25] herman Bergson: There are good reasons for that Mick...
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: herman
[13:25] herman Bergson: In the first place she was in Hollywood very active in the anti communist movements...
[13:26] herman Bergson: so she already played herself into the picture...
[13:26] herman Bergson: A second reason is that the adored capitalism....and individualism…are basic beliefs of US culture...
[13:27] herman Bergson: Like here ideas about homosexuality...
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought she had a good balance of freedom there
[13:27] herman Bergson: on the individual level you may discriminate as much as you like....NO government control there
[13:27] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): The people that followed her, slavishly in some cases were clever people; did she have great personal charisma? Its hard to see what drew people to her
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): YES
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: in germany she still is almost unknown
[13:27] herman Bergson: Good observation Annie.....
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): this tells us her background but not how she became so influential in economics beliefs
[13:28] herman Bergson: this is a tricky issue....
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): A couple who run a guest house in UK were not allowed to exclude homosexuals
[13:28] herman Bergson: She was Jewish...
[13:28] herman Bergson: and her most devoted followers were too
[13:28] herman Bergson: maybe that created a bond....a cultural heritage...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: maybe plays a part
[13:29] herman Bergson: She had ...maybe...charisma....
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -
[13:29] herman Bergson: but when you look at Youtube and see her in some clips...
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): +-
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -+
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): -+
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): --+
[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): +
[13:30] herman Bergson: to be honest....for me she is really scary...
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): LOL
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i wonder about her poor husband
[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bashing my keyboard to get water out
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...he ended up with the bottle...
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:30] herman Bergson: He was jealous of Branden....
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): branden's wife had a lot to say after it all
[13:31] herman Bergson: That was not allowed according to Objectivism however...
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are clips of her too
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): discussing it all
[13:31] herman Bergson: But when Branden in 1964 started a relation with Patricia..so and so
[13:31] herman Bergson: which came to her knowledge only in 1968 Rand was jealous herself too...
[13:32] herman Bergson: In the preface of Capitalism:The unknown Ideal she added in 1970....There is no relation at all between me and Nathaniel Branden...or something like that
[13:33] herman Bergson: So..all together ..she was just a human being....a woman....who didn't come close to the ideal human beings she dreamed of in Atlas Shrugged
[13:33] Mick Nerido: Whatever we think of her she was a sucessful novelist
[13:34] herman Bergson: No doubt about that Mick...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: thats true
[13:34] herman Bergson: And influential too...
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: very
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: good at influencing
[13:34] herman Bergson: And at this moment in history we have to harvest the results of her Utopian ideas about the free market
[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): Some harvest...…
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...indeed...
[13:35] Mick Nerido: be careful what you wish for...
[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I think part of her charisma was that her philosophy was so different than anyone else's in America at that time it caught the imagination of the public
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: which are as we can see not working so good in real world
[13:36] herman Bergson: So in the coming lectures I gonna try to disect this idea of the free market and maybe find some answers...alternatives....adjustements
[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): So where are the new utopian ideals - a panacea for our current global dead end?
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Debbbie...that is what we are facing....
[13:36] Mick Nerido: She fit well with America's anti Communist idiology
[13:37] herman Bergson: The believe in the working of capitalism has become so obvious, that we believe that it is a law of nature...
[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i hope you are putting keynes in here too sometime
[13:37] herman Bergson: Oh yes Gemmma.....
[13:38] herman Bergson: That is what they have been doing since the 80s...Reagan Thatcher.....murdering Keynes
[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:38] herman Bergson: and in my country they are doing the same now
[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh boy
[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): But it seems to be a law against nature. Faster consumption through growth is never going to solve anything
[13:39] herman Bergson: No Debbie....
[13:39] herman Bergson: this is really about basic ideas of economy....and how a society has to sustain itself...
[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): I just wish there were some new leaders with some good ideas
[13:39] herman Bergson: I'll spend a lecture on that issue...
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Rod
[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes. ty.
[13:40] herman Bergson: I agree Debbie....
[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Lizzy
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hi Rod
[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Bejiita
[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hi Rod
[13:40] Rodney Handrick: Hi Debbie
[13:40] herman Bergson: For the time being it seems we have to live with the fact that we as individual citizens are no longer human beings , but just costs...
[13:41] Rodney Handrick: wow...I tend to agree
[13:41] herman Bergson: the word welfare has disapeared...
[13:41] herman Bergson: social solidaritiry too....
[13:41] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Hasnt this always been so Hermann
[13:41] herman Bergson: it is the individual that deserves the bones....that is what counts
[13:41] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): No one worries about "little people"
[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Except to take a dollar off each ;)
[13:42] herman Bergson: After World War II people joined forces.....
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): the ones that slaved over the pyramids
[13:42] herman Bergson: they had the feeling that they had to rebuild their country together...
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): or were slaughtered by the Huns
[13:42] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): always same
[13:43] herman Bergson: with the increase of wealth...in the 80s....money and profit maximation became the new goals
[13:43] herman Bergson: individual profit
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): War has the effect of drawing a society together
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...sometimes you here that remark...."We actually need a new war"....horrible....but it is said sometimes
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): especially with the current levels of population
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well the way war is these days it would not work
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we sit at home and the war is elsewhere
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Unless you are in it !
[13:45] herman Bergson: So From now on we'll analyze this utopia of the free market and try to find the places where the sun is shining
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we are!!! but not there
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Cool Herman.
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): just paying for it all
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): And all the guns
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....
[13:46] herman Bergson: And next stage might be that we all get a drone which we can control with our computer and send to the enemy ...
[13:46] Rodney Handrick: War is an industry
[13:46] herman Bergson: Every citizen his own drone...!!!!
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Via the sl network. Maybe we can all stay at home and get virtually rich?
[13:47] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:47] Rodney Handrick: If we didn't have war we wouldn't have the Internet
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol some do
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): anshe chung
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is a millionaire
[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yep, some do ;)))
[13:47] herman Bergson: True to some extend Rodney....
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: would be like in some movie i saw before every citizen lived at home and carried all duties by a robot connected to him
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: Surrogates was the name of the movie
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: the real people never left their homes
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: but lay in a pod all day controlling the robot
[13:48] herman Bergson: Internet is a spin off of the DARPA net, but the universities were also already working on such a data exchange system
[13:48] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman!
[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well Im sitting on the southern tip of africa, at the same time that I am here....
[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: thats nice for sure
[13:48] herman Bergson: Cool Debbie....or actually ...warm :-)
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes... warm. Autumn is coming.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well...enough gunpowder for a next lecture I guess....
[13:49] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your vivid participation....
[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Hermna, great lecture. I love the chat afterwards.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: now i just have to do a little fun thing
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:50] Ayla (ayla.fang): thank you Herman
[13:50] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): lol Bejiita
[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hey bejita - it's the cat
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: doesnt work
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol i see
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: parcel too full
[[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): ;(
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cant fit any more prims in here it seems
[13:51] Lilitha Crystal: I've been on a prim diet
[13:51] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): ah too bad:))
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: would been fun to end with