Psychologically utilitarianism appeals to our sense of pain and pleasure. Put in a simple way: cause pleasure for you and others and you do good, cause pain to others and you are doing good.
In general, this may be a good guideline in our social interactions, but we also learned that it not 100% waterproof. So we have to look for some other principle that can help us to decide what is right and what is wrong.
Again, when we turn to the psychology of homo sapiens, we all know, deep in our heart, that you can't do certain things, that you have the duty or obligation to refrain from such actions.
For instance, while shopping, I can not hit someone who is just standing next to me in the face or, even worse, kill him or her. I can not walk into the store and simply take whatever I like and leave.
You simply feel it is your duty not to behave like that. And there is more to it than simply your fear that it will create unpleasant consequences for you.
So, our next step is deontological ethics. This means, there is more to a human life than just pain and pleasure. Related to that we will meet Immanuel Kant and his Categorical Imperative, but about that later,
because there is a moral rule that looks like Kant's idea and sometimes is confused with it, but this rule is much older. You find this rule throughout history in almost all cultures.
This means that homo sapiens apparently had a good understanding of hpw we can live together in peace and prosperity and the most interesting question thence is:
Is THIS rule 100% waterproof to decide between good and bad, right and wrong? What I am talking about is caled "The Golden Rule", a rule based on our rationality.
The Golden Rule, also known as the principle of reciprocity, is a universal ethical guideline stating, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
In the Bible, this rule is famously summarized in Matthew 7:12, where Jesus says, "In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you.".
It's also found in Luke 6:31, which states, "And just as you want people to treat you, so should you treat them."
Just listen what John Stuart MIll says about it. In his book, Utilitarianism, originally published in 1861, wrote, "In the golden rule of Jesus of Nazareth, we read the complete spirit of the ethics of utility.
'To do as you would be done by,' and 'to love your neighbour as yourself,' constitute the ideal perfection of utilitarian morality."
Contemporary philosophers even claim that the Golden Rule is arguably the most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights, in which each individual has a right to just treatment, and a reciprocal responsibility to ensure justice for others.
Before we embark on a journey into Kant's philosophy on ethics, isn't this rule THE RULE, that solves all our moral dilemmas and questions?
Thank you for your attention again .... the floor is yours....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:17] herman Bergson: To begin with Korel's question....
[13:17] herman Bergson: Should such a rule be 100% waterproof....
[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes and no.....
[13:18] Korel Laloix: Sounds very absolutist to me, which I generally shy away from.
[13:18] herman Bergson: If you say yes then you claim to have an absolute standard for right and wrong....
[13:19] herman Bergson: If you say No, you might face the problem of wondering which rule you have to apply in which situation....
[13:19] herman Bergson: which might lead to a kind of relativism
[13:20] herman Bergson: Religions claim to have an absolute standard....
[13:20] 0rd: its kinda interesting, because that rule seems to be the opposite of what we usually think moral should be. because it is not "do what others want", but it clearly is "do what YOU WANT"
[13:20] herman Bergson: Some even say....if there is no god, how do we know what is right or wrong
[13:21] 0rd: the rules say you have to do what YOU WANT, that seems to be the opposite of the idea of the "sacrifice" as being the highest moral standard
[13:21] 0rd: the rule*
[13:22] 0rd: usually we think being good is like "setting aside all yo want to do what other want"
[13:22] Korel Laloix: Not sure I would agree with that, but please go on.
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: There must be some standard besides what somebody else wants.
[13:23] Korel Laloix: Needs vs wants?
[13:23] herman Bergson: It is not about wanting to do something , it is about treating others like you yourself want to be treated
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:23] 0rd: like, "love", it is like "ohhh, he has so much love that he let aside all his wanting, maybe even giving his life for the person he loves"
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): respect for eachother is very important
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:24] herman Bergson: If you don't want to be tortured, then don't torture others
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha!
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje,, but you are the problem here.....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me?
[13:24] herman Bergson: Because you wear a burkha...
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:25] herman Bergson: others don't want to be treated that way
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how do you know?
[13:25] 0rd: but it is not about how others want to be treated, it is about how you want to be treated, that is the key, that is the mystery of the golden rule
[13:25] herman Bergson: because the majority of sane people dont wear burkhas
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i'm very sane
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:26] herman Bergson: I didn't say you weren't....for you it is a sane and rational choice
[13:26] Korel Laloix: I was coerced into wearing one down in Africa... very dehumanizing... in my opinion.
[13:27] Korel Laloix: But can be fun in SL I am sure.
[13:27] herman Bergson: I guess so :-)
[13:27] 0rd: if we apply the rule for that, it would be, if you want to wear anything you like , you should also let anyone wear what they like
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: I think context must figure in somewhere.
[13:28] herman Bergson: But what I mean is that the person wearing a burkha would wish that others would wear it too
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no not at all
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if i wore a dress doesn't mean I want you wear a dress
[13:29] herman Bergson: Exactly
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have beautifull dresses in my store:))
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can have one
[13:29] herman Bergson: a different in taste about how you want to be treated
[13:29] herman Bergson: You have my size, Beerje ? :-)
[13:29] 0rd: but the rule is not to impose how the others should treat you
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:30] 0rd: if you dont want anyone to impose anything on you, so dont impose anything on anyone
[13:30] herman Bergson: Let's put it in another way....
[13:30] 0rd: that is the rule
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: But we do impose rules on others.
[13:30] Korel Laloix: For good or bad.
[13:31] herman Bergson: Suppose a judge wants to convict someone to a life in prison
[13:31] 0rd: if we impose rules on others, than we should first impose the same rules on ourselves?
[13:31] herman Bergson: then the criminal says....don't do to me what you dont want to be done to yourself
[13:32] herman Bergson: That is reciprocity Ord
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: (Sometime we need to discuss alternatives to prison)
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: And that's where the context thing comes into play.
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes
[13:33] 0rd: if we do first to ourselves what we want to do to others next, we would never do any evil
[13:33] herman Bergson: It is hard to find one clear moral standard
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: How do we decide what is evil?
[13:34] 0rd: we would never criticize, because first , we would criticize us for criticizing, and we would need to stop
[13:34] herman Bergson: For instance...
[13:34] 0rd: evil is what does not obey the rule
[13:34] 0rd: rule is what is not balanced
[13:34] 0rd: hypocrisy
[13:34] 0rd: anything you do to other and do not to yourself also
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil is hurting others
[13:35] herman Bergson: But suppose you have a completely diffferent interpretation of what hurts and what not than others?
[13:35] 0rd: that is why the rule
[13:36] 0rd: then you do it to yourself first and you know
[13:36] herman Bergson: then the golden rule does not work
[13:36] 0rd: if you want to kill someone, first you need to kill yourself
[13:36] 0rd: and then you will not kill someone
[13:36] 0rd: XD
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): welll
[13:36] herman Bergson: THAT would solve a lot of murders Ord :-)
[13:36] 0rd: XD
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:37] 0rd: would solve them all!
[13:37] Korel Laloix: Why is there a need to draw a firm line?
[13:37] herman Bergson: But what about a suicide bomber?
[13:37] Korel Laloix: We have reasoning and a conscious... you need to use both sometimes.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: Interesting example, Herman!
[13:37] 0rd: because we want to know how to be good, because then we will feel good and be happy Korel
[13:38] herman Bergson: Reasoning and consciousness...yes Maybe Kant brings us closer to an answer
[13:38] 0rd: the best part, is that it is so simple and without confusion
[13:38] 0rd: it is clear
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Yes the point is to have a functional and fair society.
[13:39] 0rd: all you want, done
[13:39] herman Bergson: But what is good for me might not be good for you, Ord
[13:39] 0rd: exactly, that is why the rule is perfect
[13:39] 0rd: you do to other what is good for you
[13:39] 0rd: and i do to other what is good for me
[13:39] 0rd: and somehow that maks everything good
[13:39] 0rd: like magic!
[13:39] herman Bergson: Wearing a Burkha in one culture is good, in another it is not
[13:40] 0rd: but we are not talking about "concept of good", but actual real good
[13:40] 0rd: about feeling good
[13:40] 0rd: in our whole being
[13:40] Korel Laloix: Someones doing the right thing makes you feel like shit though.
[13:41] 0rd: maybe then we are the wrong ones
[13:41] 0rd: and they are showing us the things that are not good i n us
[13:41] 0rd: like the light
[13:41] 0rd: showing us our most deep parts
[13:41] herman Bergson: Suppose that in situation X it is better to lie.....?
[13:42] herman Bergson: to prevent some disaster or harm
[13:42] 0rd: if you would like someone to lie to you to save your life, then it is perfect
[13:42] 0rd: i would
[13:43] 0rd: well, maybe not save my body, but to save my Soul
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Like saying, no I don't know where Anne Frank is.
[13:43] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:43] 0rd: this rule make everything so simple it is like a breath of the most fresh air you could ever feel!
[13:44] 0rd: no more moral dilemas! ah! uffs!
[13:44] 0rd: no more guilt!
[13:44] 0rd: uffffs
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: I think one problem we have is related to the idea of ownership.
[13:44] Korel Laloix: I like my guilty pleasures though...
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] Korel Laloix: How so Max?
[13:45] herman Bergson: In what sense, Max?
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: If you take something that belongs to somebody else, you are stealing.
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: You are breaking one of the Ten Commandments.
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: Should there be boundaries around what you can own.
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: If you are a billionaire, can you buy the Great Lakes? and totally control them?
[13:46] herman Bergson: You could apply the golden rule here...
[13:47] 0rd: if you dont want people to steal from you, you dont steal
[13:47] 0rd: if you want to steal, then you must allow people to steal from you
[13:47] 0rd: and tehy will steal back! XD
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:47] 0rd: and in the end you will not steal anything!
[13:47] 0rd: XD
[13:47] herman Bergson: But suppose you steal a loaf of bread because you are starving, Ord...like people in Gaza
[13:48] 0rd: this rule is the best!
[13:48] Korel Laloix: For almost every rule someone could come up with, I could come up with a counterexample. So just odd to try and nail down absolutes. It denies us our humanity.
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: Context!
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: Which is what makes the rules so tricky.
[13:48] herman Bergson: Indeed Max....we are back at context and situation
[13:48] 0rd: i would like someone to steal from me, if that would make them not die of starvation
[13:48] 0rd: then that would allow me to steal too to not die from starvation
[13:48] herman Bergson: in other words...the rule can not be applied universaly
[13:49] 0rd: it is like a mathematical function. It applies individually to each case
[13:49] 0rd: but somehow it also works universally
[13:49] 0rd: it is like magic!
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seems easy at forst but turns out it isnt
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): first
[13:50] 0rd: why it is not easy?
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because as said, no absolutes
[13:50] 0rd: but it is absolute and also relative, because it applies relative to each individual
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it is ALMOST universal id say
[13:51] 0rd: it does not say "this is the good and this is the bad"
[13:51] herman Bergson: Like is utilitarianism, Bejiita
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:51] 0rd: it says "if it is good for you, that is the same that is the good you should do to everyone"
[13:51] Max Chatnoir: I am all for the rule of law, but we need to think about context and history.
[13:51] 0rd: it is relative to what each one thinks it is good for them
[13:52] herman Bergson: It looks as if it is applicable in all cases, but at a closer look you discover that it is not
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: I guess we need sublaws or something.
[13:52] 0rd: i did not find any case it did not apply yet
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: And I do think the golden rule is a great starting point!
[13:53] 0rd: it is like a mirror, very simple
[13:53] 0rd: it is not inventing anything
[13:53] 0rd: it is simply showing you to yourself
[13:54] herman Bergson: Well...I guess that at least we see that it doesnt bring us an absolute answer to moral questions
[13:54] Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat all, take care! Back to RL.
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye Korel
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Korel
[13:54] Korel Laloix: Ciao!
[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all :-)
[13:54] Max Chatnoir: Bye, Korel!
[13:54] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman and the rest of you.
[13:55] herman Bergson: Let's see next time what we can learn from Kant
[13:55] 0rd: see, with this rule, we can say "there are no moral absolute, there is no absolute good and bad", and that "good and bad is relative to each one, you just need do to to other what is good to you"
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Tahnk you Herman
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: I will look forward to the next discussion!
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well this was intresting
[13:56] 0rd: i love this rule! organizes all my mind!
[13:56] Max Chatnoir: You are a good bunny, Ord!
[13:56] herman Bergson: Very good Ord...it helps indeed in a lot of cases
[13:56] 0rd: thanks! ❤
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:56] 0rd: you are all very nice too!
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: We try to behave ourselves. :-)
[13:57] 0rd: i have to go frieeeends!
[13:57] 0rd: see you all!
[13:57] 0rd: ❤
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu Ord
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (hugs Ord)
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mmm
