Ancient Greek is always pointed at as the cradle of democracy. This makes sense, but it wasn't democracy as we know it, but the main characteristic of democracy is there: deciding by majority vote.
Yet in Plato's view, power has a totalitarian edge. In his books "The State" and "The Laws" he describes politics as a skill that must be exercised by experts. Only philosophers know the truth and know what is good, and they must therefore hold the power.
They receive years of training for this and are not allowed to have any property or family life. However, the majority of the population has no power or political say whatsoever.
Plato sets up a state apparatus with military guards who apply strict censorship and ensure that the population lives soberly and peacefully and does not produce more than it needs.
That idea of Plato never came to fruition. It is a kind of technocratic idea: leave the real work to the experts.
It may sound a bit strange to you, but I see a parallel here with the current situation in the United States. Some Americans see the state as a kind of big company.
And a big company must be run by businessmen and that is exactly how Donald Trump has profiled himself: as the big talented businessman who will run Enterprise USA.
Away with all those non-profit organizations that waste money, such as USAID, Social Security, Healthcare and masses of civil servants who do not generate income but only cost.
Furthermore, he has surrounded himself with billionaires, the businessmen who made it and will manage Enterprise USA. So away with democratic decision-making, because the politicians do not understand how a big business is runned.
Plato has been strongly criticized for his political ideas by other philosophers? But if we place his ideas in the context of the classical Greek period, a different picture emerges.
After all, it was the participants in the Greek democracy who had sentenced Plato's beloved teacher Socrates to death. And those participants were determined by chance and not by suitability.
According to Plato, political power should not be dictated by chance but by expertise. Perhaps Plato's ideas were also motivated a little by revenge on the "murderers" of his teacher.
But he also gives it a noble twist. For Plato, the pursuit of power is equal to the pursuit of truth, which is a form of meaning reserved only for philosophers.
It is remarkable that Plato's pupil Aristotle proposes a completely different distribution of power: in his "Politeia" he describes different types of monarchy, tyranny, democracy and aristocracy, after which he arrives at a constitutional democracy as the optimal form of government.
According to Aristotle, only free men were allowed to exercise power, such as voting, and for him the different forms of government were still all possible.
Some thinkers found that for a proper distribution of power the combination of monarchy, democracy and aristocracy was ideal. You could see this as the first signs of the insight that you have to divide different kinds of power.
With the advent of Christianity and Islam, such ideas disappear and absolute power comes into the hands of the king, who derives his authority directly from being chosen by his god to rule.
This meant that for centuries the meaning of life was mainly determined by the often absolutist power of the king and ruling class. It was still a long way to true democracy.
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it all sounns too familiar
[13:18] herman Bergson: yes, while writing this lecture I really had to think of today and the US
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmmm
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): seems the democracy is disapearing
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some people just do never learn from history
[13:19] herman Bergson: I guess a lot of Americans think, a country is a business meant to make money
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes :( i have heard many new horror stories
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will not disappear
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but will take a while to get straightened out
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): human lives are worthless and money is all that matters,
[13:19] herman Bergson: That belief, you mean Gemma?
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here i mean
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just guuuuh
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there were 3 million people protesting alll over the country
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Saturday
[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes I have seen Rachel Maddow's her report ㋡
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even in places where protests never happen
[13:21] herman Bergson: 1400 places with protests
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): like aAlabama
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Alaska
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so eventually
[13:21] herman Bergson: Will it have any effect?
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also i heard a story about these planes deporting probably mostly innocent people to that torture prison. The flight crew got instructions like. "save yourself, dont bother with the inmates just let them die/drown" in case something happened with the plane
[13:22] herman Bergson: I dont have the feeling the current government is very empathic
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think after two years for sure
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just so... i cant believe it
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Heramn, not at all
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are monsters
[13:22] herman Bergson: I gues the Dems wait for the Midterms?
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when they have elections for the house many of those mice will lose their seats
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): human lives mean nothing to them
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): only money
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not much we can do inbetween but protest
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its so evil!
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the stories of people being deported for no reason are terrrible
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i knew it would be bad with Trump but that it would be THIS bad
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like omg
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): many of those mice will lose their seats..weho are the mice?
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know bej
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the republican house members
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): quieter than mice
[13:24] herman Bergson: I am really curious, what will happen at the midterms
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me too
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so tonight the tariffs take place
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i wonder how the people of the us will survive this
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): STORM THE WHITEHOUSE! Just as Trumps allies did with the congress before. Then throw them out of there
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:25] herman Bergson: There were already some signgs from Wisconcent....that election of a judge....which is not even a political issue
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and china where we get so much stuff the tarifff will 100
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): let Trump taste his own medicine!
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well it was
[13:25] herman Bergson: Slow down Bejiita, please
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): because the court there would have been all conservative
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well need to do something
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok maybee not that drastic, or, it cant go on like this for sure
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a disaster
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it showed a state that went for trump changed their opinion
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes...which was prevented
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and even then the two elections for house in florida the points the republican candidates won by was way down
[13:26] herman Bergson: The first thing we may conclude is that a state is not a business...
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a small beginning
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeeed, true herman
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 100%
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and Musk is showing signs of dissent against a big counselor of the president ]
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): said he was dumb as rocks
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u cant run a state like a buisness, and u cant even run a buisness the way Trump runs a buisness
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which he is
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes Gemma
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): because of his ideas about tariffs
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so funny
[13:28] herman Bergson: Penguins have to pay tariffs now too, I have heard
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm saw somehting bout that
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the stock market is having contractions every dasy
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): day
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well everything dives as a rock now including Tesla and the stock market in general have hit an all time rock bottom
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ] which trimps billionaire friiends do not like
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well, you know Gemma....I quietly sit back and watch it happen and wait...
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so Musk is probably realizing to late this was no good idea
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i guess we all have to
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for now
[13:29] herman Bergson: But one thing is clear....US democracy is down the drain...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): temporarly fingers crossed
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I saw a thing before about farmers what voted for Trump/maga are now loosing their farms , one had put the trump flag upside down halfway up (like when mourning)
[13:30] herman Bergson: Tiday is about the question fi power can be a meaning of life...and for some people it is
[13:31] herman Bergson: to control others
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the coments someone then wrote "Old McDonald lost his farm Elon Elon Oh!
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool soooo perfect!
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well not exactly but many who supplied food goods for the USAID for overseas
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will lose if it all continues
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think a lot of people will die
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we will see
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you are right beertje
[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed....our wisest strategy, Gemma ㋡
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in other countries
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and I cannot see how Isreal gets away with the terrible things in Gaza
[13:33] herman Bergson: I really wonder what it all willl lead to...but the damage for the US is already done.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shuttong down USAID is just so cruel
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the Primeinister was here yesterday
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): disgusting
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but then for Trump these people can just die because they are not us born white and rich
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said,soooo evil
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tue too
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:34] herman Bergson: The Gaza matter I really dont understand....so mega destructive...
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and he is a wanted criminal in mnost other countries he would have been arrested in most
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: ISnt he visiting Trump at the moment?
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yesterday he was
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): drinking wine together i bet like pals
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): guuuh
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): while the genocide goes on
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:36] herman Bergson: I heard Trump talk about Gaza as such a beautiful estate...or something like that....and deporting inhabitants
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no one thing trump does NOT do is drink
[13:37] herman Bergson: only diet coke, it seems
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes he would love to get a hold on it and his family business would build it up as a new resort
[13:37] herman Bergson: The idea as such is already sooooo disrespectful
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just....
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I am glad Rachel is doing 100 days every night
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): her staff is so good at getting info
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): she's good at it
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:38] herman Bergson: She is good ㋡
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:38] herman Bergson: I also like Laurence O'Donnell
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes me too
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i listen often to him
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm that Trump want to benefit from a genocide to build a paradise for the rich elite
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so totally disgusting
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just insane
[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...these are the consequences of power.....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): power by an idiot
[13:40] herman Bergson: And unfortunately we lack the power to save the world today
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no respect for human life whatsoever
[13:40] herman Bergson: YEs, Beertje....just recall the lectures on Stupidity.....:-)
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed power by an idiot
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cant almost believe this is happening, and gets worse and worse
[13:41] herman Bergson: So don't forget.....this Thursday no class.....
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hope u have a good time
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and good food
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): enjoy you remembrance day
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:42] herman Bergson: Thank you all again.....
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: https://suno.com/song/00a37375-7e59-4752-bfd3-9a24b8407d28?sh=xwfzA3daDWtffPez
[13:42] herman Bergson: unless you still have aan important questionor message....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa u made a song bout it!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ty bergie
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed sooo perfect
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma, I definitely will..........
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what happens when u as farmer vote for someone like trump
[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i believe that power only makes sense when it is used for the good of humanity
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and elon
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well weon came as add on
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): farmers like him because he would loosen regulations
[13:43] herman Bergson: I agree Bergie.....
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): elon
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i guess he promised them this and that
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well well see what happens
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
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