I must admit that I was a bit overly zealous in the previous lecture by saying that we had arrived in 1750 at the cradle of capitalism,
and Max immediately expressed her hope...oh, next time capitalism! So this lecture is expected to deal with a full-fledged description of capitalism.
I have to disappoint you. The point is that we can't ignore the 17th century and the economic thought of that time, because there the seeds of what we now call capitalism were planted.
What we first have to understand is the core of this economic thought, the change from mercantilism to capitalism.
I use the term capitalism, but don't assume that this is something crystal clear and unambiguous. There are numerous definitions of the term,
but let's keep it simple and just assume that at least it is about money, where the money comes from and where the money goes, and who benefits from the money.
That is the key issue: the creation of money. How does that happen?
Let's introduce two terms: (1) rich and (2) wealthy. In our context, rich means that you have a lot of gold and silver in your treasury, a static condition.
Wealthy means that you are rich, but in a dynamic way. There is an uninterrupted flow of income.
What I mean is this: a rich state, like Spain, for a while due to the bullion from the Americas, has a problem,
because it also had to spend its gold and silver on its armies, infrastructure, civil servants, and so on. When the inflow of gold stops, you become less and less rich.
And here is the catch: So a wealthy state might still welcome gold, but its true wealth doesn’t come from treasure. It comes from what its people can produce.
In the previous lecture, I said: What really creates wealth for a nation is production capacity, creating goods that can be exported and sold.
And that is why I can't move directly to 1750, for in the 17th century, we find the thinkers who realized what productivity economically meant,
and it leads to the most essential question: where does this productivity come from? Answer: LABOUR.
So, at the roots of capitalism, we find the relation between labour and productivity as the producing factor of wealth, which made some people rich and wealthy.
Thank you for your attention...the floor is yours..
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
of Economic Thought (2012)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: Thank you herman
[13:23] herman Bergson: Capitalism...it made SOME peopple rich due to labour and productivity...not everyone...!
[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: rich or wealthy?
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman!
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ive always thought as thos 2 words as synonyms for the same thing
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one who have lot of money
[13:25] herman Bergson: wealthy, Ciska, for wealth means power and that they use with their richness
[13:25] Sinclair Bracken: isnt it more about the relationship between labor and the control of the profits of labor that is important
[13:25] herman Bergson: yes correct...that is what I also mean
[13:25] Sinclair Bracken: I mean there coud be productivity but it depends on how the gains from that are structured, doesn't it?
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: yes... when one in wealthy but acts only like one is rich that blocks the productivity
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: If labor produces wealth, then wealth is access to labor.
[13:26] herman Bergson: Correct Sinclair
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah
[13:26] herman Bergson: What do you mean by that Max?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no workers = no wealth but sadly the boss often takes 99% of it
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: If the stream of money comes from labor, then it's the labor that is producing the wealth, but not necessarily sharing in it.
[13:27] Sinclair Bracken: somy question would be what are the defining characteristics of capitalism that differentiate it from other ways of structuring that relationship?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Hold on....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok now my head spins more then when i train capoeira moves!
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (tries to get all info)
[13:29] herman Bergson: The stem of money does not come from labor, Max, it comes from what labor produces....
[13:29] herman Bergson: these products are sold etc....
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: Yes.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u dont make money before selling the goods u prodice true
[13:29] herman Bergson: the money that comes in...where does it go?
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: up
[13:30] herman Bergson: To those who put in the labor or to those who enables the individuals to sell their labor to the owner of the production facilities?
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like today when I was manufacturing stuff at work and put it into our warehouse using a forklift, what i created was what we call bound capital
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): only wen we sell it it really becomes profit
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: bound capital?
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: potential capital?
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes in sweden we call it that at least = lit bundet kapital
[13:31] herman Bergson: I did a test
[13:31] herman Bergson: please Bejiita
[13:31] herman Bergson: I did a test...
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:32] herman Bergson: asked ChatGPT and DeepSeek for at least 5 definitions of capitalism
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: It's complicated.
[13:32] herman Bergson: FIrst thing is...there is no perfect one...they all can be critiziced...
[13:32] herman Bergson: BUT....
[13:33] herman Bergson: I also asked them tho rate the definitioons...
[13:33] herman Bergson: ANd behold....!!!
[13:33] herman Bergson: The winner is....?????
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well...guess
[13:34] herman Bergson: I hear lt of names....
[13:34] Sinclair Bracken: what were the definitions-- then I'll guess
[13:34] Sinclair Bracken: I don't now what I'm guessing about yet
[13:34] herman Bergson: I got them and their ratings Sinclair...
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: capitalism links creativity to labor
[13:35] herman Bergson: You are guessing about what the AI tools rated as the best definition of capitalism
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: crypto?
[13:35] Sinclair Bracken: but don't I need t oknow the definitions first?
[13:35] herman Bergson: And the y came with the same answer
[13:36] herman Bergson: no..you have to base your choice on your own idea what a correct definition of capitalism is
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: aren't they based on the same data source?
[13:36] herman Bergson: Here comes the fun. Max
[13:37] Sinclair Bracken: I'm here preciselyy because I don't have a definition of capitalism
[13:37] herman Bergson: ChatGPT is American and DeepSeek is Chines...and I can tell you...a world of differences ..I got the proof
[13:37] Sinclair Bracken: but what was the best definition?
[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: velocity of circulation of money on the world market?
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: Interesting!
[13:38] herman Bergson: ok then...
[13:38] herman Bergson: ChatGPT and DeepSeek rated the definition used by Karl Marx a 9/10 all others scored lower!
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: lol
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: can't be
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: And what was that one/
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: ?
[13:39] herman Bergson: I have the copies Ciska
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: Marx defined capitalism as an economic system characterized by private ownership of the means of production, where the bourgeoisie (owners) exploit the proletariat (workers) through wage labor, leading to class struggle and the extraction of surplus value.
[13:40] herman Bergson: 9/10 means 9 on a scale of 1 to 10
[13:40] herman Bergson: Exactly!
[13:40] Sinclair Bracken: was that on google, Ciska?
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: i guess its the only one that is available a lot and liguistically spoken the most simple one
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: well it was a duckduckgo but only because i forgot the bourgeoisie
[13:41] herman Bergson: oh no....I easily got another four, historically founded
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: as clear as that one?
[13:42] herman Bergson: almost literally
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: ok... i guess i need to look into that hahahha
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats what capitalism is for me i guess too, the boss sucking out his workers, the boss gets the cake and the workers just the crumbles
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: There's one word in there that is politically loaded: exploit.
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: yes - well marx was a differnt time
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: "class struggle" is a little foggy....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): inequality
[13:44] herman Bergson: To keep things transparant...cool term....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:44] herman Bergson: this was the question I asked both AI tools
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: nowadays you would say workers offer labour - companies carry the risks - but that is no longer true since we have the corporate world
[13:44] herman Bergson: Give me, if possible, 5 definitions of capitalism, and the origin of each definition. Evaluate, criticize, and rate them on a scale of 1 to 10.
[13:45] herman Bergson: But let's recapitulate...
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: What is the scale representing? Accuracy, clarity, frequency?
[13:47] herman Bergson: Today we learned that at the base of capitalism stand labor and productivity and when the products are sold, who profits of the received payments for them?
[13:47] herman Bergson: All of those features Max
[13:48] herman Bergson: Like a teacher evaluates an essay of a student
[13:48] Sinclair Bracken: there are also the structures within which the decisions about production, distribution, and the accumulation of profit are carried out
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:49] Sinclair Bracken: is this a courese about which ai system is the best or about economic theory?
[13:49] Sinclair Bracken: (course)
[13:49] herman Bergson: No...it is a course about the history of economic thought...
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: and practice?
[13:50] herman Bergson: That I tell you about my experiences in realtion to what I write with AI is just the fun part
[13:51] herman Bergson: oh...I forgot...and to tell you my EGO is doing fine due to that ㋡
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[13:52] herman Bergson: To be intellectually hugged by AI after 76 years not knowing how good you are....cool ...lol
[13:52] Sinclair Bracken: actually, while we're on the subject, could you mention the names of the 17th century writers who were important in the development of the theory or practice of capitalism?
[13:53] herman Bergson: I am finally cured of my inferiority complex ...
[13:54] herman Bergson: yes...will be discussed int enext lecture...
[13:54] herman Bergson: John LOcke and SirJohn Petty
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman ㋡
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:54] Sinclair Bracken: thanks
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice lecture again!
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:54] Ciska Riverstone ♫~~♫~~APPLAUSE~~♫~~♫
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) ♪♥♪APPLAUDS!!!♪♥♪
[13:55] herman Bergson: SO...on to the next lecture :-)
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah
[13:55] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Ciska Riverstone donated L$200. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all again...was a pleasure to work with you
[[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman, it was interesting again:))
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