To the modern mind, the phrase "medieval economics" may conjure images of a primitive, static system,
a mere prelude to the intellectual ferment of the Renaissance and the scientific revolutions of the Enlightenment.
This perception, however, obscures a rich and complex tapestry of thought where theology, philosophy, and nascent economic principles were intricately woven together.
The Middle Ages, far from being an economic dark age, was a period of profound intellectual engagement with the moral problems posed by commerce, property, and exchange.
Especially this theme of moral problems is an important issue here. Economic thought in those days wasn't what it is today.
It was not about profits. It was about human relations from the perspecive, how so we seal with eachother, how do we live together in a just way.
Just recall the previous lectures about Aristotle. Economics was about moral values, not about making a good profit.
But keep in mind, we are on our way to capitalism as the main theme of economic thought. What did the Medieval thinkers do related to this perspective?
Thinkers like St. Augustine (354 - 430 BC) viewed private property as a consequence of the Fall, a necessary but regrettable institution to manage human sinfulness.
Economic activity was justified not for accumulation but for the sustenance of one's household and the fulfilment of the duty of charity.
For instance, these early chritian thinkers like Augustine, held that a key concept was that of the "just price,"
which was not initially a precise market value but rather a subjective valuation rooted in the needs of the buyer and seller
and the requirements of commutative justice,ensuring that no party was made worse off by an exchange.
One great name of this period of history is Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274). He had read all the works odf Aristotle.
For him, economic acts were a subset of human acts, and were therefore subject to the overarching framework of moral theology and natural law.
Natural law, a concept he refined from Stoic and Augustinian sources, posits that human reason can discern
fundamental, universal moral principles inherent in the created order, which themselves participate in God’s eternal law.
From this vantage point, Aquinas systematically addressed the pressing economic questions of his day.
We'll get to it in more detail in the next lecture, but the core of economic thought in those days was about a durable framework of ethical inquiry
that sought to ensure the market served humanity, and not the other way around. Something we have lost completely these days.
Thank you for your attention... the floor is yours..
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
of Economic Thought (2012)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:27] herman Bergson: Do you see the upcoming breach in history...?
[13:28] herman Bergson: From morality to profit maximization?
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: What was the connection between private property and the Fall?
[13:29] herman Bergson: Because Adam and Eve were evicted from Eden they had to gather private property to survive.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Where and when did it all go wrong?
[13:30] herman Bergson: Just attend my lectures and you"ll get the answer Bejiita :-))
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: But if they were really the only people around wasn't it all theirs already?
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true Max
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the whole world was theirs
[13:31] herman Bergson: The Adam and Eve story is just a silly metaphor....not a description of reality
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: Ok, so if that is the case, then what is the connection?
[13:31] herman Bergson: There never was an Adam and Eve and paradise...
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: So how can the concept of property derive from something that never was?
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Adam and Eve was only a religious metaphor for why we van not be happy and have to suffer because we are sinners and so and so
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can
[13:33] herman Bergson: In the religious days then Augustine believed that the need of private property was a consequence of the ultimae sin..the eating of the apple....They believed it was a true story
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: So what is the ethical framework for property ownership?
[13:33] herman Bergson: Good question, Max.....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i say that can be called a sin indeed, thats when greed appeared for real i guess
[13:34] herman Bergson: That is the whole point n the Middle Ages...
[13:34] herman Bergson: there were two options....
[13:34] herman Bergson: the Aristotelian on....use it for managing your household...
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: You've got this planet awith a growing number of humans on it trying to survive.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah
[13:35] herman Bergson: and the "retai" one...use it to accumulate wealth...(which was regarded as bad behavior)
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: The concept of property arises with agriculture because whoever is going to grow crops has to have some control over what happens on the land they are growing on.
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as this was a bad behaviour, why was the church so rich?
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good question
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): double morale
[13:36] herman Bergson: oh dear..please..Beertje..different story...keep greed and power in mind
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the church wanted power over the people and they did so by scaring them with you go to hell of u do so and so ect while cashing in
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess thats how it worked simplified
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes, the change to agriculture life created this property issue more emphatically indeed
[13:38] herman Bergson: A logica; consequence of producing more than you need to survive...
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because then u can sell it to others
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: Which is a good strategy for survival of a bad crop year.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is true, surplus as backup is nice
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp regarding things we need to survive like food
[13:40] herman Bergson: Also an option, keeping reserves
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: And you want to give people time to think so that they can invent new tools and processes and understnad the world, etc.
[13:41] herman Bergson: But my main point is to show you that economic thought in those days was a moral discussion not one about profit maximization
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: Profit is necessary for continuing to operate, but what is the best way to use and distribute it?
[13:42] herman Bergson: And as Max already discovered...the ethical part of economics has disappeared in the discussion these days
[13:43] herman Bergson: Profit is not necessary to continue, Max.....break even is enough economically
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: Is it?
[13:44] herman Bergson: Which means you earn as much as you spent
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes of course...
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: So what do you spend next year?
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the biggest problem today are the shareholders and CEOs demand for INFINITE GROWTH!
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: Where does that come from?
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wich is impossible but they refuse to accept this
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): result prices hiking all the time up and up and up
[13:45] herman Bergson: You survive the next year form the same earnings...
[13:45] herman Bergson: to go for a profit would be justified if you need extra income for new developments
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: If you have just enough food to feed everybody how do you plant the next crop?
[13:46] herman Bergson: That would supersede break-even
[13:46] herman Bergson: You plant from the harvest you had
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: So you have to have more than enough
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): going a bit beside break eve i say its ok but then u need to be satisfied, These shareholders and CEOs ect never get satisfied
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just MORE MORE MORE
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: or that has to be part of the equation
[13:47] herman Bergson: No I mean...you have a harvest and sell it for so much that you can live a decent life and buy new seeds...that is a break even
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: OK
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: So what is a "decent life" and how is that distributed among the profits?
[13:49] herman Bergson: A lot of farmers in the US at this moment hope they manage it this way.....
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes we can fight about the definition of decent life....
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: I don't know what's going to happen to some of the farmers this year, because their market has been redirected.
[13:50] herman Bergson: I'd say..decent healthcare, food on the table, access to education, to begin with
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we need to be well fed, happy ect, the problem is that money has become a status symbol
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: food, shelter, education, health care, etc.
[13:50] herman Bergson: right..
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the rich ones measure their status above the other "lower" peopöe with luxury houses cars boats ect
[13:51] herman Bergson: doesnt need to be wrapped up in gold
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): while they shit on those not as rich as them
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sad fact
[13:51] herman Bergson: (like the current White House :-)
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I actually have a cool T shirt o got from one of my dance friends
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it says Skillz B4 Statuz
[13:52] herman Bergson: We have a good word for living a good life....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly my mantra also
[13:52] herman Bergson: the word is ENOUGH
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ys
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: That's a good starting place!
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): be satisfied
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eys
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:52] herman Bergson: when you have enough food, enough healthcare, enough shelter, enough education...you'll do fine
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont aim for infinite growth and other impossible goals
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also, care for the others around you, dont be an ego
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we can all be happy and progress together no problem
[13:54] herman Bergson: So, in the Middle Ages they still understood that economy and morality were closely related...
[13:54] herman Bergson: We are now heading for the times when that relation was broken....
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: And I guess the church actually spent some of its money to help people who couldn't make it on their own.
[13:55] herman Bergson: I wonder. Max...
[13:56] Max Chatnoir: Yes, I don't actually know that.
[13:57] herman Bergson: Just read an article in my newpaper about a Nuns congregation that took care of orphan girls and used them as unpaid labor
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: Weren't there orphanages, etc?
[13:57] herman Bergson: Now they are sueing the congregation :-)
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: who is?
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: The nuns or the girls?
[13:58] herman Bergson: The girls..now ladies intheir 70s :-)
[13:58] herman Bergson: for abuse and things like that :-)
[13:59] herman Bergson: The old girls are suing the nuns
[13:59] Max Chatnoir: power corrupts. How do you keep that from happening?
[13:59] herman Bergson: The problem solved itself....
[13:59] herman Bergson: In Europe hardly any woman wants to become a nun anymore...
[14:00] herman Bergson: nor young man becoming a priest,, and the churches are empty here
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): religion giving way for science and true facts
[14:00] herman Bergson: and if there is an audience in the church...it is all grey
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least mostly
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the only thing im concerned with is what will happen to the trappist beers
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because i love these
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): candy beer
[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bejiita
[14:01] Max Chatnoir: bears?
[14:01] Max Chatnoir: beers?
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[14:02] Max Chatnoir: The trappists make beer? Why are they called trappists, by the way?
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): try for ex the LaTrappe beers, those are a fav
[14:02] herman Bergson: Don't worry Bejiita...if there is a profit in producing Trappist Beer even a pagan will do it for you.
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no idea but they are made by nuns and monks in monasteries
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes they were made by monks
[14:03] Max Chatnoir: Oh, maybe like the Augustinians.. They are named for somebody named Trap?
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess so, as long the brewing method is not lost
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the best beer there is
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Its not named after trap music for sure
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed they are yummy
[14:04] herman Bergson: It tasts like the Sound of Music, but has no relation to it :-))
[14:04] Max Chatnoir: Oh, they're named for the Abbey. LaTrappe.
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in the Middle Ages people drank beer because the water was not clean enough
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): drinking that and listen to fine music is a perfect combo however
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like a fine wine
[14:05] herman Bergson: indeed Beertje....
[14:05] Max Chatnoir: The order takes its name from La Trappe Abbey or La Grande Trappe, located in the French province of Normandy, where the reform movement began. Armand Jean le Bouthillier de Rancé, originally the commendatory abbot of La Trappe, led the reform.
[14:05] Max Chatnoir: Wiki
[14:05] herman Bergson: but the alcohol percentage of that beer was lower then that of today....
[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even children drank that beer
[14:05] herman Bergson: yes
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true beertje, Themsen was polluted for ex by raw sewage, im not sure i would drink beer made from that water still without todays proper cleaning even if it was considered safe
[14:06] Lukkie Sands: My goodness Beertje...where did you go to school!!!!!
[14:06] Lukkie Sands: You know a lot!
[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): with the nuns...who I hated
[14:06] herman Bergson: lol
[14:07] herman Bergson: Still parked in your head
[14:07] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[14:07] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they were mean
[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ive seem some history show where they described londin as a cesspit with all sewage going untreated out everywhere and all around you it stank like you lived in a sewer
[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not very nice
[14:07] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also the tech did not exist back then for cleaning it so what to do
[14:07] herman Bergson: Ohh..totally off subject....
[14:08] herman Bergson: But Ilearned something...
[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): time to have a beeer!
[14:08] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we had to clean the school floor on our knees
[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:08] herman Bergson: The Netherlands is called Holland tooo
[14:08] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha
[14:08] Max Chatnoir: But part of the economics problems is that the economy gets really complicated really fast. Everybody can't be a farmer.
[14:08] herman Bergson: Where does the name Holland come from...
[14:09] Max Chatnoir: Netherlands means lowlands
[14:09] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no idea, that was the name i grew up with though,
[14:09] herman Bergson: It comes from HOLTLand = HOUTLAND....meaning land of wood
[14:09] Max Chatnoir: Woodlands!
[14:09] Max Chatnoir: Interesting!
[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa ok
[14:10] herman Bergson: The Netherlands was covered with woods in the 16th century and it is all used to build ships
[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and clogs and windmills
[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ect
[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed much wood stuff over there
[14:10] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[14:10] herman Bergson: I never knew this..but it fits us:-)
[14:10] Max Chatnoir: So woodcraft?
[14:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my son always wore clogs to school, i could hear him coming home over a distance:)
[14:11] herman Bergson: Ships, Max...The East Indian Company....PROFIT!!!
[14:11] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): woodland and down/lownald resp
[14:11] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): holland/Netherlands
[14:12] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ㋡
[14:12] herman Bergson: Well..thank you all again...
[14:12] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[14:12] Max Chatnoir: Why East Indian Company? Why not Netherlands Company?
[14:12] Max Chatnoir: colonialism?
[14:12] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes to Indonesai
[14:12] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): trading with india right?
[14:12] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Indonesia
[14:12] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not India
[14:12] herman Bergson: yes...and that was its name in the 17th century
[14:13] herman Bergson: no Beertje...is Indian
[14:13] herman Bergson: checked it
[14:13] herman Bergson: Indonesia didn't exist in those days
[14:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah ok
[14:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): when did we go to Indonesia then?
[14:14] Max Chatnoir: Wallace studied the wildlife there.
[14:14] herman Bergson: 1800th
[14:14] herman Bergson: I guess
[14:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the old people still speak Nederlands
[14:15] herman Bergson: Dutch you mean :-)
[14:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Nederlands
[14:15] herman Bergson: *_*
