388: The Utopia of the Free Market - Neoliberalism

A utopia is not a collection of individual daydreams or abstract expectations about the future. A utopia has quite different features.

A utopia is characterized by three features according to the Dutch philosopher Hans Achterhuis(1942 - …). A utopia is a description of (1) a society, which (2) is doable and (3) is a totality, covering all aspects of life.

This leads to an interesting observation. Through history there have been described many Utopias, but hardly never a liberal one. That is to say, until Ayn Rand.

While liberalism is focused on the individual, a utopia is almost always a description of a society to which the individual has to conform.

So this confronts us with the question: does there exist a liberal utopia? To answer this question we have to make a difference between classic liberalism with names like John Locke (1632 - 1704) and Adam Smith (1723 -1790), who indeed never wrote a utopia

and neoliberalism, that was ardently propagated by Ayn Rand and described in a thoroughbred utopia: "Atlas Shrugged".

Later I'll dig deeper in the historical backgrounds of classic liberalism and neoliberalism, but already a few observations.

Classic liberalism from the 19th center made a sharp distinction between public and private, between state and society.

Current neoliberalism knows only private interests and regards the state as a kind of superior insurance company for private interests.

Neoliberalism assumes that the free market is more capable to organize economic affairs than organizations, which are under government control.

This is the real utopia of neoliberalism, which based on the assumption that it is a good thing to transform governmental tasks into private businesses: healthcare, hospitals, postal services, national railways and public transportation, telephone communication.

Here you see the utopian dimension of neoliberalism at work, which believes in the rather implausible metaphysics of the intrinsic harmony of all private interests on the free market.

And exactly this is the quintessence of the new ideal society, which Ayn Rand describes in 'Atlas Shrugged' and in which Allen Greenspan deeply believed till 2006.

As an economist he saw that things were going wrong, but as a believer he persisted in the conviction that the free market would correct itself.

And a utopian believer he was. When he officially was appointed by Ronald Reagan as President of the Federal Reserve Bank, it was not his wife who stood next to him in the Oval Office, but Ayn Rand.

Completely in line with this development are Ronald Reagan's words (US President 1981 - 1989)"
"Government is not the solution to our problem,. Government IS the problem. "

In several studies on utopian theories, researchers note a frequently occurring resemblance: lust and greed have disappeared and the use of money is abolished.

This in absolute contrast with the ideal Atlantis in "Atlas Shrugged". In Rand's Atlantis it is precisely the virtue of greed, that is praised and money becomes the symbol of success, achieved happiness and success.

With her utopia Ayn Rand did not only attack the communist collectivism, which she had fled in 1932, but in fact also the Western European welfare state, which was based on a deep sense of solidarity.

And under the influence of the neoliberal utopia of the free market we have to face the steady dismantling of this kind of society.

And if you really want to witness the delusion of the free market utopia just watch this Youtube URL and associated URLs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIHLezCyzCI&feature=related


The Discussion

[13:27] herman Bergson: You have 10 minutes to watch it....:-)
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: damn now my computer hates me
[13:27] Mick Nerido: In US neoliberalism is called Right wing or Conservatism
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ok ill check it
[13:27] Merlin Saxondale: yeah, unexpected... need to put sound on
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Mick and the summit is theTea Party movement
[13:28] Merlin Saxondale: With things like this, most of the information is conveyed in the sound
[13:28] herman Bergson: and from now on the floor is yours
[13:29] Merlin Saxondale: In UK there is a Liberal Party.....
[13:29] Merlin Saxondale: It is not the liberalism you describe but it is somewhat left of centre
[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh Yes..,and Margret Thatcher was the neoliberal pur sang in the UK
[13:30] herman Bergson: a dear friend of Ronald Reagan
[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: yes but she was in the Conservative party, not the Liberals
[13:31] Merlin Saxondale: It is the Conservatives who fit your description of liberals
[13:31] herman Bergson: The conservatives are the neoliberals I would say
[13:31] oola Neruda: i see government as being a referee ... necessary regulations... because of the potential of one state to harm another state across borders
[13:31] herman Bergson: Indeed Merlin
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Reagen was a conservative Republican
[13:31] Merlin Saxondale: But there seems to be no agreement on the terminology
[13:32] oola Neruda: also that with big money, elections in states can be "bought" for selfish interests
[13:32] herman Bergson: don't look at the terms, look at their actions....
[13:32] Merlin Saxondale: Of course, but we need to agree on the meanings of words we use in order to communicate
[13:32] oola Neruda: you pollute the mississippi ..you pollute the whole river to new orleans
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes oola....a poor man will never make it in any election in the US, I guess
[13:33] oola Neruda: we NEED government
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes....
[13:33] oola Neruda: if it is not bought and paid for
[13:33] Farv Hallison: LTCM
[13:33] herman Bergson: but the big discussion is between government and private interest and freedom
[13:34] herman Bergson: the balance
[13:34] Merlin Saxondale: I have an issue about the ability of a single person to have huge influence too
[13:34] herman Bergson: well..Merlin...yet it is a historical fact.....
[13:35] Farv Hallison: Let people or banks gamble with their own money.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Galilei, Kepler, Newton, Descartes, Einstein..etc....
[13:35] oola Neruda: on a positive note...there IS a single person who will shortly be having an influence upon the problems in Uganda
[13:35] herman Bergson: Single brains that produced something very influential
[13:35] oola Neruda: and it is a relief to see it happen... renews hope
[13:36] Merlin Saxondale: But the time and the population has to be ready, receptive
[13:36] herman Bergson: The problem is Farv..that banks have no own money...
[13:36] herman Bergson: It is what we put into the bank that they have
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: basically they take our money for their own wallets
[13:37] Mick Nerido: The pendulum swings back and forth between liberal views and conservative in government
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: as i said before , before in time banks and companies were for the people now its the other way around
[13:37] herman Bergson: The metaphor is attractive Mick..but if it is true?
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: they don't care about giving service only to take our money
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: the service is only there as a bait sort of at least with some companies it seems so
[13:38] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:39] herman Bergson: at least we can conclude that we live in an aera, which is driven politically by the utopia of the free market...
[13:39] herman Bergson: This free market is not a natural phenomenon...
[13:39] herman Bergson: we invented it...
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:39] herman Bergson: and it doesn't work...
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and its not living up to what they say it seems
[13:40] Mick Nerido: Think of your money is on loan to a bank which gives u Interest in return
[13:40] Farv Hallison: the market is not free
[13:40] herman Bergson: neither did the total absence of a free market work under communist regimes
[13:40] herman Bergson: So we have to investigate alternatives
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: as said here in sweden we see scary examples of that, trains getting more expensive to ride and that never come in time if at all is one example ¨
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: of this selling out to private hysteria
[13:40] herman Bergson: the balance between collective and private property
[13:41] Farv Hallison: Would it helpto return to the gold standard?
[13:41] Qwark Allen: for what i understand about Ayn Rand, the flaw in this neoliberal try was the lack of regulation
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita in the Netherlands we see the same...
[13:41] Qwark Allen: the free market should had regulation
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: aa yes seem to be same phenomenon everywhere
[13:41] herman Bergson: We never had problems with our national railways...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: not a good development in general for sure
[13:41] Merlin Saxondale: In UK the prices are rising, but the service is improving
[13:41] Qwark Allen: that was the purpose of the government
[13:42] herman Bergson: Since it is privatized there only needs to fall some snow and the system breaks down
[13:42] herman Bergson: Lack of maintenance....etc...
[13:42] Merlin Saxondale: lol
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: here in sweden we can soon get nowhere even the gasoline have been extremley expensive the train is even more, soon we cant afford to go anywhere
[13:42] Merlin Saxondale: That has been a problem here too... leaves on the line is the classic one
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: and we need to get around to work etc
[13:43] herman Bergson: Ah yes Merlin Autumn leaves.....a killer for the system, though it never has been
[13:43] herman Bergson: tilll they became a private enterprise
[13:43] Merlin Saxondale: hehehe
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:44] herman Bergson: To invest in maintenance costs money and reduces the profits....and the profits is the wholly Grael of each enterprise
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aa nindeed they don't service as they should at all, drinking coffee and heave in money instead
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: the actual service comes in 2nd or even 3rd hand
[13:45] Merlin Saxondale: I did not like nationalization either, but what I really don't like is Monopoly
[13:45] herman Bergson: Well....I guess we'll have a lot to discuss still
[13:45] oola Neruda: many years ago, they did a study...what would make people conserve (gas, resources, etc)
[13:45] herman Bergson: But let us save it for further lectures
[13:45] oola Neruda: the best answer they came up with is higher prices
[13:45] herman Bergson: May I thank you for your participation again....
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:46] oola Neruda: people don't do it voluntarily in enough numbers
[13:46] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:46] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:46] Qwark Allen: was extremely interesting
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: but the problem is then we would just be sitting in our homes not getting to work or anything, we need alternative fuels thats cheap together with cheaper vehicles and so
[13:46] Farv Hallison: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and the society would stop
[13:46] Qwark Allen: i`ll see the other videos at youtube about
[13:47] Merlin Saxondale: Well Bejita, I think people should stop travelling so much
[13:47] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:47] Qwark Allen: lol

387: The Utopia of the Free Market - Capitalism....

While "Atlas Shrugged" was and probably still is a bestseller among students of American MBA institutes where the captains of industry are prepared for their job,

the book saw a Dutch translation only in 2007, and this just because it was 50 years ago, that it was published in the US and it was even self-published.

It IS the utopia of Capitalism, an economic system of which many people think, that it is the result of an objective process which is not the result of ideas of others or invented.

Nobody seems responsible for its intrinsic ideology and the obvious utopia, as described in "Atlas Shrugged". There would not exists something like "The Capitalist Manifest".

The opposite is true. "Atlas Shrugged" is this manifest, depicting the ultimate capitalist utopia. In addition to the novel Ayn Rand wrote a non-fiction "footnote" as she called it herself: "Capitalism, the unknown Ideal" (1966).

One of the contributors is that well known name: "Alan Greenspan is president of Town-send-Greenspan & Co., Inc., economic consultants."

The book is fascinating. Let me quote Rand herself:
This book is not a treatise on economics. It is a collection of
essays on the moral aspects of capitalism.

Our approach can best be summarized by my statement in the first issue of The Objectivist Newsletter (January 1962):

Objectivism is a philosophical movement; since politics is a branch of philosophy, Objectivism advocates certain political principles

—specifically, those of laissez-faire capitalism—as the consequence and the ultimate practical application of its fundamental philosophical principles.

It does not regard politics as a separate or primary goal, that is: as a goal that can be achieved without a wider ideological context

Politics is based on three other philosophical disciplines: metaphysics, epistemology and ethics—on a theory of man's
nature and of man's relationship to existence. It is only on such a base that one can formulate a consistent political theory and achieve it in practice… (…)

No politico-economic system in history has ever proved its value so eloquently or has benefited mankind so greatly as capitalism—and none has ever been attacked so savagely, viciously, and blindly."

She continues with stating that the truth about capitalism is secretly obliterated, not by a conspiracy of evildoers however,
-quote-" it cannot be done except with the tacit compliance of those who know better.

By their silence—by their evasion of the clash between capitalism and altruism—it is capitalism's alleged champions who are responsible for the fact that capitalism is being destroyed without a hearing, without a trial, without any public knowledge of its principles, its nature, its history, or its moral meaning. (…)

The method of capitalism's destruction rests on never letting the world discover what it is that is being destroyed—on never allowing it to be identified within the hearing of the young."

Now, when you take into account that Allen Greenspan, as a true disciple of Rand and her Objectivism, has systematically ignored all warnings regarding the oncoming financial crisis, the next words of Rand almost sound prophetic…..

"The guilt for the present state of the world rests on the shoulders of those who are over forty years old today (with a very few exceptions)—those who, when they spoke, said less than they knew and said it less clearly than the subject demanded. This book is addressed to the young—in years or in spirit— who are not afraid to know and are not ready to give up."

Of course Rand was thinking of other shoulders than those of Allen Greenspan and the Chicago-economists like Friedrich von Hayek and Milton Friedman.

But it is their Utopia of the Free Market and its shortcomings, that we now put under the magnifying glass and there we see that Rand's theory of man as being the rational, creative and productive individual, already is a utopia.


The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:20] : Kime Babenco raises hand
[13:21] Kime Babenco: Applause
[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:21] herman Bergson: The floor is yours.... ^_^
[13:21] Gemma Cleanslate: interesting
[13:21] herman Bergson: floor
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: I like Rand's idea of blaming the older generation, as a general principle
[13:22] herman Bergson: laughs...
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate GIGGLES!!
[13:22] Gemma Cleanslate: ...LOL...
[13:22] herman Bergson: good idea Merlin
[13:22] herman Bergson: it was that generation that fed you and educated you
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: Well, I'm one too, but we all have predecessors
[13:22] Mick Nerido: Do you think man is not rational, creative and productive?
[13:23] herman Bergson: assuming you are the younger generation
[13:23] Merlin Saxondale: Im not!
[13:23] herman Bergson: Ahh Mick....good remark!!!!
[13:24] Mistyowl Warrhol: Never trust anyone over thirty..where have I heard that before LOL
[13:24] Merlin Saxondale: only the over 30's would remember that Misty
[13:24] herman Bergson: The point is that traditionally philosophy assumed that the essence of being human was being rational...have a ratio...think of Descartes
[13:24] Kime Babenco: People are not better than you can expect from people... Altruisme... Great... You find that among soldiers or miners,,, not in business at stock exchanges or at politics
[13:24] Gemma Cleanslate: as old as molecules
[13:24] herman Bergson: However...consciousness as we possess is way more that just being rational
[13:25] herman Bergson: No Kime…Rand even sees altruism as the ultimate destructive tool of capitalism and society
[13:26] Kime Babenco: When people have a lot of power... they like it... We have religious powers, political ones, and financial ones
[13:26] Beertje Beaumont gave you Snapshot : Bergson's, Wainscot (213, 213, 38).
[13:27] Mick Nerido: capitalism assumes everyone is selfish and make it a virtue...
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Mick...and that is a fundamental mistake...
[13:28] Kime Babenco: Is it the kind of society you would like ?
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Are we not all responsible for our selves?
[13:28] herman Bergson: even from an evolutionary point of view it can be shown that evolution has not led to ultimate selfishness as the way to survive
[13:28] Mistyowl Warrhol: Kime makes some very good points.
[13:28] oola Neruda: no man is an island...to quote another famous source
[13:28] herman Bergson: exactly oola!
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: she would never accept that
[13:29] Mick Nerido: Does Rand disagree with wealth philanthropy?
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!
[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: oh
[13:30] herman Bergson: the quintessential core question of this project is actuallly.....what is the relation between government and the free individual, I think
[13:30] herman Bergson: Like Bill Gates does Mick?
[13:30] oola Neruda: a bit like state's rights... i think...
[13:30] oola Neruda: which the civil war was fought over
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Yes like Gates, she thinks this is bad?
[13:31] herman Bergson: I guess she would disapprove of it yes
[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: primitive peoples have a lot of sympathy with on eanother, so what rand says leads to an inappropriate and unnatural way of life
[13:31] Mick Nerido: She is cold..
[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Lizzy....
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: she was very cold personally
[13:32] Kime Babenco: Well, I can give an example... In Brasil Lula (ex president) started the zero fame plan (no one with hunger)... And education encouraged... At the other side in USA, the so called rich country of the planet, about 4 million people have lost their house because of stupid bankers
[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: and why the silent majority stay silent, while the radicals use every means to shout their greedy ways.
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: take a look at her
[13:32] herman Bergson: She really misses the point obsessed by her anti collectivism as she is
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Communism was an attempt to spread the wealth evenly it failed...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Mick..communism is as unnatural as Rands Utopia , I would say
[13:33] Mick Nerido: I agree
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: In her time, there was no fast communication, so did she ever think that there would be those who would share their wealth and power. That was something that wasn't in the news then.
[13:33] Kime Babenco: Communism was a good idea maybe , but in ended up with an elite class of captalism
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Kime....
[13:34] herman Bergson: after 1989 all of a sudden there were russian mijardairs...
[13:34] herman Bergson: millionairs
[13:34] herman Bergson: I was flabbergasted....
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: billionaires now
[13:35] herman Bergson: How could that be possible
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: the top of the billionair list
[13:35] Gemma Cleanslate: came out yesterday
[13:35] herman Bergson: amazing
[13:36] herman Bergson: so...
[13:36] herman Bergson: the essential question here is...
[13:37] herman Bergson: what is the balance between government control and the individual freedom
[13:37] herman Bergson: The Free Market Utopia had its answer as formulated by Rand...
[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: difficult question
[13:37] Mick Nerido: tough question
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes it is....
[13:37] herman Bergson: For instance....
[13:38] Kime Babenco: Does one go into politics because of ideal ? Or because of personal benifits ?
[13:38] herman Bergson: All states in Europe are spending more money than they earn by taxes....all of them...
[13:38] herman Bergson: which household woulddo that for years?
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: here in the usa too
[13:38] herman Bergson: oh yes...
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: but of course two wars cost a lot
[13:38] Gemma Cleanslate: tsk
[13:39] herman Bergson: The problem is ....when you spend 10.000 dollars you dont have...
[13:39] herman Bergson: you go to a bank and take a loan on those 10.000
[13:39] herman Bergson: then you only have to pay...say...1000 a year for it....
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: After WWII, it was considered one's civil duty to pay taxes.
[13:39] herman Bergson: for 14 years...
[13:39] Mick Nerido: Governments can just print more money
[13:40] herman Bergson: those 1000 you can afford and for the public you can play Santa
[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: the central banks Mick
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well..I'll go on withthis project
[13:41] Kime Babenco: But let's assume you asked 100 000 for the bank to buy a house... and have to pay it as 110 000 in 10 years , but suddenly the houses fall in prices, and the bank is out of money... They want your money still...
[13:41] herman Bergson: and maybe dismantle neoliberalism... ㋡
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes KIme....
[13:42] herman Bergson: those are the finacial bubbles
[13:43] herman Bergson: There is a flaw in your remakr Kime....
[13:43] herman Bergson: The 10 year contract stands...and the people can pay it ...
[13:43] herman Bergson: whatever the situation of th ebank is
[13:43] Kime Babenco: If failing banks have to be saved by the government when they fail... (so the tax payers), then why don't we see any money from it when they gain a lot ? So I guess banking is better be done by the offical governments maybe... Or at least a very strict control on it ...
[13:44] herman Bergson: Well...without loosing us in all kinds of details....
[13:44] herman Bergson: I'd love to see you agian next Tuesday... ㋡
[13:44] Gemma Cleanslate: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] herman Bergson: Tahnk you all for your participation...
[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡
[13:44] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman great subject
[13:44] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman:)
[13:44] Kime Babenco: Thank YOU ALL !
[13:45] oola Neruda: take care all
[13:45] oola Neruda: baiee
[13:45] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting lecture and ty :-)
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: you too
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: bye oola
[13:45] oola Neruda is Offline
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:45] Mistyowl Warrhol: Bye Gemma, tc :-)
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: bye everybody
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: yes, bye everyone from me too
[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: Bye all :-)
[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: we again have a lot to think about:)
[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: Yes, we do.

386: The Utopia of the Free Market - Atlas Shrugged

In her Introduction to her book "Capitalism, the unknown Ideal (1666) Ayn Rand writes :"This book is addressed to the young—in years or in spirit— who are not afraid to know and are not ready to give up.

What they have to discover, what all the efforts of capitalism's enemies are frantically aimed at hiding, is the fact that capitalism is not merely the "practical," but the only moral system in history. (See Atlas Shrugged.) (…) This present book may help them. It is a nonfiction footnote to Atlas Shrugged."

This illustrates exactly how Ayn Rand influenced American economic thinking: primarily through her novels and especially "Atlas Shrugged".

The opening line of Atlas Shrugged is: "Who is John Galt?" It appears to be a kind of slang expression, which you use when you don't know what to say, somewhat like "Whatever!" But in Part III of Atlas Shrugged the question is answered….

Although the story is centered around Taggert Transcontinental Railways, the core of the story is this:

In the history to date the burden of the survival of humanity is always worn by 'Atlases', i.e. free, brilliant and creative producers. They made sure there was food for everyone, they taught their fellowmen to study nature rationally and to develop techniques to subject nature.

They made life getting better. Through the influence of mystics, priests and philosophers, these creative loners however, also were convinced that it is their responsibility and obligation to largely self efface for their fellow human beings whose needs should be central. (Rand's anti-altruism)

In the indeterminate age which Ayn Rand describes in her novel and which seems to lie not far into the future , one has largely accepted the idea of collective altruism. Outside America, in old Europe, one no longer believed already in production for the free market.

There are everywhere people's republics created in which the means of production are nationalized.This leads to disaster and misery. As the only remaining capitalist state in the world America must support and nurture Europeans.

But even this last bastion of the free market will perish for two reasons. In the first place the government in Washington with its socialist aspirations puts increasingly a heavy burden on the economy.

This all is regulated with strong support of the trade unions. There are increasing taxes and cartels (of which Rand was an ardent supporter) are prohibited. There are increasingly interventions in the free economy, because of which production decreases rapidly.

Secondly the demise of the free market takes place as more and more top industrials mysteriously disappear. With their disappearance disappears often their property too, the means of production destroyed. Oil wells are on fire, factories are sabotaged .

And if that was not bad enough, every time a large capitalist disappears without leaving too much direct damage, no one appears able to take over and continue operations. Any successor who takes over the holding, including the state-appointed managers, fails hopelessly.

The result is that the collapsing economy and society falls back to barbaric times of hunger and poverty.
There is no more heating, the trains break down, the food shipments from the west don't reach New York and other major cities in the East anymore.

Ayn Rand describes the downfall of America as a classic dystopia, which means the idea of a society in a repressive and controlled state, often under the guise of being utopian, as characterized in books like Brave New World or 1984.

At the same time secretly in a valley in the rugged mountains of Colorado, a new society is prepared, which will be the utopia of greed.

Here live the disappeared super-industrialists, bankers and the judge who absolutely wanted to maintain private property rights.

This valley, as they say themselves, is their Atlantis. In the world outside, these Atlases went out on strike and they reached something striking workers never achieved:

the civil clockwork has come to a stand still just by the hand the capitalists. When they go on strike the whole economy collapses.

In their own Atlantis now the residents indulge themselves fully in free market capitalism. Everyone produces,acts and competes with each other. Nothing is given out of engagement or friendship, everything must be earned by working or be paid for.

The super capitalists in Atlantis even love telling each other how much they compete with eachother and fleece the other. This is only good for production and wealth, which will grow rapidly in this way.

When the social collapse of the outside world finally is inescapable and the New Yorkers are in a desperate exodus of their city and attempt state to leave, the time has come for the people of Atlantis to save the world.

John Galt, their leader, who has worked hard to destroy the old world, says at the end of the novel and I quote:

"The road is cleared," said Galt. "We are going back to the world."
He raised his hand and over the desolate earth he traced in space the sign of the dollar.


The Discussion

[13:27] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ㋡
[13:27] herman Bergson: shrugges ㋡
[13:27] Mistyowl Warrhol: LOL
[13:28] herman Bergson: The floor is yours if you have a question or remark
[13:28] oola Neruda: it is public knowledge that large corporations in the US have a lot of money but are refusing to hire now...
[13:28] Android Neox: The problem with capitalism as a moral system is that morality depends upon an assumption of some equality among people. Capitalism makes no such assumption and no compensation for the condition of one's birth.
[13:28] Android Neox: The survival and advancement of mankind is actually due to the cooperative labors of the masses… not supermen. All accomplishment and wealth is due, in part, to society. From The Radical Politics of Thomas Jefferson, "Give a man a continent and, without society, he cannot prosper. He may, with effort, survive. But, he cannot prosper."
[13:28] herman Bergson: hold on plz....
[13:29] herman Bergson: keep our rules, which are behind me to the left, in mind
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well Android....
[13:30] oola Neruda: i feel they are manipulating the economy for political reasons
[13:30] herman Bergson: Cut you statement to nice pieces...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe we can discuss them then
[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh yes oola...large companies do...
[13:30] herman Bergson: Take the oil companies...
[13:31] Mick Nerido: Survival of the fittest...
[13:31] oola Neruda: deregulation is a battle cry
[13:31] herman Bergson: they come up with the excuse...trouble in the east...so prizes of gas go up
[13:31] oola Neruda: or the excuse... we want to see what interest rates are doing
[13:32] oola Neruda: that is wall street talk... money is the goal
[13:32] herman Bergson: Well oola..that is what we'll discuss in future lectures...
[13:32] Farv Hallison: They will manipulate the election by causing a financial collapse in October just before the election.
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: everything is money it seems, yourself as person have no value, your value is in how much money you got
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: that seems to be how they think
[13:32] Mistyowl Warrhol: Oil prices are set by speculators, oil companies don't want you to know that.
[13:32] herman Bergson: we live in a money economy at the moment, and that hasn't been the case all through hostory...
[13:33] Android Neox: The Republican party has made it clear that they would rather see America fail than Obama succeed.
[13:33] Mistyowl Warrhol: That is one very true statement, android !!!
[13:33] Mert Dexing: We can demonize the big corporations, but it would be more fair to look at our laws. Companies are legally required to do whatever is legal to raise profits. Otherwise shareholders can sue them.
[13:33] herman Bergson: The that is a pretty desperate party Android...
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Mert...WE created this system of the money machine ourselves
[13:34] Mistyowl Warrhol: If we the people, allow them to get by with it, then who is really at fault.
[13:34] oola Neruda: it was ... my way or no way... had no thought for what people needed
[13:35] Android Neox: I don't think I can fit even a simple argument into 17 words, so I'll be off.
[13:35] Android Neox: thank you all
[13:35] oola Neruda: the propaganda machine...the spin doctors... make it all sound so nice...
[13:35] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:35] herman Bergson: oh dear...
[13:35] herman Bergson: I wouldn't have mind if he used 20 words
[13:35] herman Bergson: well..ok
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The number of lines depends on how wide your window is
[13:36] herman Bergson: We have to keep one thing in mind....
[13:36] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...
[13:36] Mistyowl Warrhol: So, did Ann predict the future or did ppl reading her book create it according to her words?
[13:36] herman Bergson: the last is true Misty....
[13:37] herman Bergson: Greenspan, Friedman, Hayek...the Chicago boys...
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: the capitalists saw an apologist for a moral system they could use to acquire wealth
[13:37] herman Bergson: Rand WAS really influential
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Druth something like that
[13:37] Farv Hallison: Allan Greenspan believed her and created the world in her image...then it collapsed.
[13:37] herman Bergson: exactly Farv..
[13:38] herman Bergson: But you know....
[13:38] oola Neruda: Greenspan is not either/or...there is a lot of grey area in him
[13:38] herman Bergson: Historically the biggest mistake was..
[13:38] druth Vlodovic: people who work only for their own interests aren't really loyal to a moral code or system
[13:38] herman Bergson: when in the 80s the communist economies collapsed...
[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think I am supposed to know who Alan Greenspan is, but I dont
[13:39] oola Neruda: ended up head of the FED
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: Well, it does go back to the Christian Coalition.. which has nothing to do with Christians, but brought a gentleman by the name of Grover Norquist into the picture.
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): aah yes. talk1 I think
[13:39] herman Bergson: the capitalists slapped each other on their shoulders saying..didn't I tell you we were right!!!!
[13:39] Farv Hallison: Greenspan was chairman of the FED
[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): when?
[13:39] Mick Nerido: It has not collapsed, it was adjusted down lol
[13:40] druth Vlodovic: communism suffered from the same problem our economy suffers from, rule by the self-interested
[13:40] herman Bergson: at least a wall collapsed Mick ^_^
[13:40] druth Vlodovic: once you can remove consideration fro others from your mind then any system can't survive you running it
[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think pure capitalism is as doomed to fail as pure socialism or communism.
[13:40] herman Bergson: But in a real different way Druth
[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): A balance is what's needed.
[13:41] herman Bergson: Here it was legit...there is wasn't, .but very one idid it
[13:41] Mick Nerido: China has an interesting mix of Capitalism and State control
[13:41] Mistyowl Warrhol: So, what would be the ideal government?
[13:41] oola Neruda: philosopher king?
[13:41] herman Bergson: Let's wayt with that question for later Misty
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: technically it isn't supposed to be legit here either, they just adjust laws and such to continuously advantage themselves
[13:42] oola Neruda: yes druth
[13:42] Mistyowl Warrhol: "pouting" Ok.. LOL
[13:42] Farv Hallison: The problem is not state control, but control by multinational corporations…..they created the laws that they hid behind
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: i guess so
[13:43] oola Neruda: think superpac
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aa yes, the laws are made so they can use everyone for their own profits only
[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): points at Farv. What he said.
[13:43] herman Bergson: when a multinational 'threatens ' a government to raise gas prizes for instance...I think they do that
[13:43] Farv Hallison: they created the idea that the purpose of the state is to protect property
[13:43] Mistyowl Warrhol: The superpac is very much like what Ann predicted and it is life and well.
[13:44] druth Vlodovic: the problem as I see it is that the purpose of the system is no longer the good of the society, however you conceive it, but the advantage of a small few who do not feel dependent on that system
[13:44] Mick Nerido: Does any one here own stock in a corporation?
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: If i say like this, before companies and banks was for the customers
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: now we are for them instead
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the other way around
[13:44] herman Bergson: That is exactly the problem Druth
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: to fill their wallets
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: their
[13:45] herman Bergson: I am not sure but it was Rand who invented the expression "to make money"
[13:45] druth Vlodovic: the funniest thing is to meet a rich "anarchist" they simply assume that their power and welath is not dependent on the social-economic system that created it
[13:46] herman Bergson: so we live in a world where the highest goal is to make money
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes "born with silver spoon in the mouth"
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:47] Farv Hallison: If we are just material objects there is no external morality.
[13:47] oola Neruda: strange that a lot of "conservative christians"... whose goals i would expect to be alturistic... are republicans and tea party members...
[13:47] oola Neruda: it seems contradictory
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: they seem to think they are born with some special ability that make them wealthy and worh mych more then others because of that
[13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): or materialism is the morality
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: The greatest asset a company has it the loyalty of their employees.. when they lose that, they lose all in the end.
[13:47] Mert Dexing: You can blame that on the "prosperity gospel" Bejiita
[13:47] herman Bergson: Interesting observation oola
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hmm
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: I've seen companies deliberately attempt to break employees of their morale and loyalty
[13:48] oola Neruda: materialism:...this world is (not) my home
[13:48] Mert Dexing: It's an evangelical Christian belief that God gives wealth to his ardent followers
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: the more pressure you put on the employees the less they ask for,
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: also shit runs downhill ;-/
[13:48] oola Neruda: i disagree mert
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats nasty for sure
[13:48] oola Neruda: blessings do not have to mean wealth
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: heard such stories indeed
[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have heard that the lower workers suffer the most stress
[13:49] Mick Nerido: So companies fire the 10% lowest performers each year!
[13:49] Mistyowl Warrhol: Oola, makes a good point.. but it is not true Christians. it is greedy ones, who wrap themselves in a cloak of religion..
[13:49] Farv Hallison: water runs down hill, too.
[13:49] Mert Dexing: But, when it comes to super-wealthy Christians, it's how they interpret it
[13:49] oola Neruda: yes Mert...agree
[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Like 'Champagne Socialists' too
[13:50] herman Bergson: INteresting to bring in christianity combined with social politics....
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: indeed thats how they think
[13:50] herman Bergson: not a popular mix in the US I guess...
[13:50] herman Bergson: Can they spell the word Samaritan?
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: As the guy said, when they bring Religion into politics, it is never about religion.. it is all politics.
[13:51] oola Neruda: for some people... they make the economy the issue... for other people they talk about hot item controversial social issues...as if that is what they really were concerned with
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes religion is about mostly to gain yourself and create misery for the others
[13:51] herman Bergson: lol Bejiita!
[13:51] Farv Hallison: They waited in Colorado for the self-destructive people to kill themselves off, They survived
[13:51] herman Bergson (from dutch): Bejiita lol!
[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): People can bend religious beliefs to support anything
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: if not with war and killing so with greed
[13:51] Mick Nerido: God is on our side say the religious all over the world
[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think religion is about control.
[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Mick
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: religion is killing this world
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: everything spins out of control
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: religion is about human desire for spirituality corrupted into a political tool
[13:52] herman Bergson: If you recall my previous project you could put a big question mark by religion....
[13:52] herman Bergson: it is a social phenomenon...yes...
[13:52] Mistyowl Warrhol: I disagree.. it is not religion.. but the use of religion for evil means, that is the problem. :-)
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: the funny thing is that when it goes bad the "politicians" can just blame the spirituality they corrupted
[13:53] herman Bergson: of course it is Misty
[13:53] oola Neruda: Nietzsche did not like religion in general...but he had deep respect for the devout people who truely followed Christ's example and instruction
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yes religion is one thing but where does the original scripts say we should just think about ourself
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: kill homosexuals
[13:53] oola Neruda: there are honest people out there trying to do the right thing
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and start bloody wars everywhere
[13:53] herman Bergson: yes oola....
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i dont think either the bible or koran says that
[13:54] druth Vlodovic: it's there in various spots
[13:54] Mick Nerido: Jesus would be killed again if he reappeared, that is the sad lesson
[13:54] druth Vlodovic: god himself commonly engaged in genocide
[13:54] herman Bergson: well. my friends....
[13:54] herman Bergson: we stared with Atlas Shrugged....
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Jesus and the Old Testament are totally different things
[13:54] Mistyowl Warrhol: A true person of faith is too busy doing good.. those ppl are few and far between.
[13:54] oola Neruda: yes Merlin
[13:54] oola Neruda: totally different
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your enthousiastic participation.....
[13:55] Mick Nerido: Excellent class
[13:55] herman Bergson: this is only the third lecture in this series... ㋡
[13:55] druth Vlodovic: I wonder, how much nihilism is involved in the current trend to allow everything to go to hell except your own wealth
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: this gets more and more interesting
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed
[13:56] Mert Dexing: Thank you professor
[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you all
[13:56] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you!
[13:56] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): that's a lot to think about..
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: and one that is very involved. Please everyone, keep the USA in your thoughts. today is our Super Tues.. we see who is the Repu.. candiate for Prez. LOL
[13:56] druth Vlodovic: capitalists seeing themselves in ayn rands godlike "atlas'" lol
[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon all
[13:57] Mert Dexing: It was nice meeting everyone
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): bye bejiita
[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Bye Bejita
[13:57] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC everyone. til next time :-)
[13:57] druth Vlodovic: cya all, have fun
[13:57] :: Beertje :: (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight everyone
[[13:58] herman Bergson: Well Mert?
[13:58] herman Bergson: What do you think?
[13:58] Mert Dexing: Well, I keep wondering if there isn't some merit to Rand
[13:59] Mert Dexing: Maybe there is a point where selfishness is good
[13:59] Mert Dexing: I'd like to say that is always isn't
[13:59] herman Bergson: you may not believe it...
[13:59] Mistyowl Warrhol: There is a difference is being selfish and taking care of self.. Hard lesson I had to learn.
[14:00] herman Bergson: but Rand is the auctor spiritualis of the present financial crisis...
[14:00] herman Bergson: Not s e personally....
[14:00] herman Bergson: but through her disciples like Greenspan, Friedman and Hayek
[14:00] Mert Dexing: Imagine though if we had a big-wig oil Tycoon here
[14:01] herman Bergson: Greenspan was FED president till 2006!
[14:01] Mert Dexing: Wouldn't he or she be able to offer some kind of compelling argument?

385: The Utopia of the Free Market - introducing Selfisness

When Ayn Rand wrote her book "Atlas Shrugged" she was convinced that Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses)

is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

This was what Descartes thought too, but like Rand he hadn't the faintest idea what the future would reveal about the human being and his brain.

They both had no idea about our insights in neurology, neurobiology, evolutionary psychology, neurophilosophy or the modern ideas about consciousness and the mind, as I have presented to you in my project "The Mystery of the Brain".

If according to Ayn Rand reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears, then there are a number of plain facts which contradict her interpretation of reality and the mind.

The most obvious error is her idea that reason is the basic means of survival. When I discussed the basic emotions like fear, joy, grief, anger, we learnt that these emotions were related to the amygdala and the limbic system in the brain.

Emotions that control our behavior and where reason is involved only afterwards. Yes we know the utopian individuals who don't know fear at all, because of their superb reason. The most famous one is probably Mr. Spock from Startrek.

Take for instance this quote from "Atlas Shrugged":
The door of the structure was a straight, (…). Above it, cut in the granite, as the only feature of the building's rectangular austerity, there stood an inscription:

I SWEAR BY MY LIFE AND MY LOVE OF IT THAT I WILL NEVER LIVE FOR THE SAKE OF ANOTHER MAN, NOR ASK ANOTHER MAN TO LIVE FOR MINE.
- end quote -

Ignoring any evolutionary or ethological counter evidence this is the conclusion of the Randian Reason: the moral good is to focus on rational self-interest. Logically, altruism is only the road to self destruction.

As Rand says in her book "The Virtue of Selfisness" (1961) : "Altruism declares that any action taken for the benefit of others is good, and any action taken for one’s own benefit is evil. Thus the beneficiary of an action is the only criterion of moral value—and so long as that beneficiary is anybody other than oneself, anything goes."(…)

"The Objectivist ethics holds that the actor must always be the beneficiary of his action and that man must act for his own rational self-interest. But his right to do so is de­rived from his nature as man and from the function of moral values in human life…"

A typical statement: "…his right to do so is de­rived from his nature as man.." What is the nature of man? Is it a biological organism interacting with its environment, guided by its brain,

or is possessing and using Reason the very nature of man, where this Reason comes to the conclusion, that to survive self-interest, is the only right thing to follow?

All major characters in "Atlas Shrugged" are convinced of this moral principle. When Hank Reardon, steel tycoon, was asked whether he made better steel for railroad tracks to help others to build safer railroads, his answer was "No!"

But then why? And he answered "To make money". What he creates (better steel),he only does for himself and it is his inalienable property.

That he supports society in doing this, is only because he creates employment and produces a good product for the market, but it never will be his goal to produce a product intended to contribute to society.

And this Randianist view of man combined with economics has lead to where we now stand: the main goal of companies is to make money, profit maximization, whether this is for the social good or not.

The immense fraud in the US with selling mortgages to people who eventually (and the financial experts knew it) wouldn't be able to pay, is just the beginning of many other examples.


The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you..... ㋡
[13:25] Farv Hallison: Thank you..... ㋡
[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:25] Jaelle Faerye: Thanks Herman
[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): This is becoming more interesting than it seemed at first when we talked about economics
[13:25] Sybyle Perdide: thank you
[13:26] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): thank you
[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you merlin....I hope to keep it up
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: another example is how they fool people with these sms loand that people for some reason don't see are so expensive they get just even more snared and that everything is just an evil lure
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)
[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that philosophy seems to be the leading stream of thinking for all businesses today
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: sms loans
[13:26] Mick Nerido: People are not born selfish, it is learned behavior?
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I did not like to interrupt but something came to me earlier
[13:26] herman Bergson: No Mick, people are not born selfish at all
[13:26] herman Bergson: People are born as social beings
[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): remember that there was much more fraud in those mortgages .... signatures that were not the real thing
[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sometimes when people act selflessly they can mess everything up
[13:27] herman Bergson: and yes...in the group you fight for your part of the game...
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: we know that primitive peoples are organized very social
[13:27] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Is that true Herman?
[13:27] herman Bergson: but it doesn't exclude that you are able to share
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Annie...that is a fact....
[13:28] herman Bergson: Even animals show altruistic behavior....
[13:28] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Its just that small children seem to have trouble sharing and have to be encouraged
[13:28] herman Bergson: that is behavior for which you get no reward...
[13:28] herman Bergson: you just do it for the other
[13:28] Mick Nerido: The Quakers are non competive society
[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: isn't it a kind of social Darwinism what Rand tells us?
[13:29] herman Bergson: No Lizzy..she misses the point there completely, I would say
[13:29] herman Bergson: Her view of man is completely outdated,
[13:30] herman Bergson: But her influence is still considerable
[13:30] Mick Nerido: Most games are competitive with winners and losers SL is not, perhaps a better game.
[13:30] herman Bergson: Rand has the simplistic idea that the human being is in essence a rational being
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but SL is not a game, games is about challenge, sl is a 3d social system id say
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: sort of
[13:31] herman Bergson: For Rand all is controlled by reason and its method is logic....
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: to meet and have fun with others
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: then there are games inside sl
[13:31] herman Bergson: Just look at the financial markets today....
[13:32] herman Bergson: they behave irrational....just based on believes, expectations
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes id say that
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: short hand thinking to get quick money
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: no long therm at all
[13:32] herman Bergson: thus Rand's ideas demonstrate the Utopia of the Free Market
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Do you know about chain letters Herman?
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Merlin....
[13:33] herman Bergson: A trick as old as I am :-)
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think these economic scams are similar
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Something called Ponzy scheme
[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): not sure how its spelt
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes thet Pyramide construction....
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: also we have the pyramid games
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes, pyramid selling is another
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: the ones at the top get it all the rest nothing at all
[13:34] Bejiita Imako: or rather they loose money instead to the ones at the top
[13:35] herman Bergson: Just greed...no social meaning at all
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Chain letters would work if there was an infinite population
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: its terrible stuff indeed
[13:35] Farv Hallison: It is a trickle up scheme
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): the rely on endless expansion
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Economic Growth bothers me
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): but I am no economist
[13:36] Farv Hallison: our economy depends on endless expansion/
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes farv, that's what I think
[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Farv...I am not an economist myself....
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and its impossible
[13:36] Mick Nerido: Remember the Tulip speculative bubble in Holland?
[13:36] herman Bergson: but I wonder....when does the growth end?
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): heard of that
[13:37] herman Bergson: Oh yes...17th century....
[13:37] herman Bergson: the first economic bubble ^_^
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: i see
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well, a song came out of it!
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: is that so?
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Tulips from Amsterdam :P
[13:37] Farv Hallison: growth stops when waste products poison the environment.
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehehe ok i see
[13:38] Mick Nerido: Speculation is a problem still
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: well yes tulips they are known for
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: speculate is not good really you need facts
[13:38] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example how the free market utopia works in this word....
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: or everything can go wrong
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but these gredy bastards seem not to realize that
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: take only the bank collapse 2008
[13:39] herman Bergson: just listen.....plz
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: the entire world stopped
[13:39] herman Bergson: Bejiita
[13:39] herman Bergson: Europe exports a lot of second rate chickenmeat to some african countries....
[13:39] herman Bergson: of course to make a good profit...
[13:40] herman Bergson: they dump it on their markets for low prices ruining the chicken farmers there...
[13:40] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Fowlplay
[13:40] herman Bergson: now...what to do....
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ooh
[13:40] Farv Hallison: haha
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes heard something abot something like that before as well
[13:40] herman Bergson: then the Secretary of the World Trade orginasation Paul Lamy says
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: or similar cases
[13:40] herman Bergson: says
[13:41] herman Bergson: they should make their farming more efficient and more specialized in stead of producing only for the local needs
[13:41] herman Bergson: in other words...
[13:42] herman Bergson: the local farmers who produce for the local market which is self sufficient have to tak eover our model of production....goal...not being self supproting…but making profits
[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): idiot!!
[13:43] herman Bergson: Thus we ruin local economies....
[13:43] herman Bergson: We force our economic model...the self interest upon them
[13:43] herman Bergson: THAT is the free market...
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): misty
[13:44] Sybyle Perdide: hi Misty
[13:44] Mistyowl Warrhol: sorry ;-(
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hi Misty
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥
[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): missed the whole thing
[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: modern colonialism
[13:44] Mistyowl Warrhol: hugs all :-)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes I find it criminal...
[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Misty
[13:45] Farv Hallison: When industrialized farming can't make a profit they will stop growing food and there will be a world wide hunger.
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are many examples o
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): happening now also in the pharmacy industry
[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): shortages of special meds
[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There was a satire on modern european economics and the financial bubble on Tuesday afternoon on BBC Radio4
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/radio/bbc_radio_four/20120228
[13:46] herman Bergson: That may be so Farv, but that doesnt mean they have to invade markets with low prize products disrupting the local economy
[13:46] Mistyowl Warrhol: I got in on the end, but as to farming.. All the good farm land has been used for urban areas. The land is dead now.
[13:46] Bejiita Imako: the medical companies only see to their own profits, that poor people cant afford it and therefore will die they give no care
[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: we have products from china here too
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): great example of rand
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: AIDS medicine for example
[13:47] Mick Nerido: have to go thanks Heman, everyone...
[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye ㋡
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ok mick
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡
[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Mick
[13:47] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Mick
[13:47] Farv Hallison: byre Mick
[13:47] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye Mick
[13:47] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: By Mick, TC :-)
[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy....like we import electric bikes form China,though it was invented in the Netherlands
[13:48] herman Bergson: Hard competition there...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: very hard
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: China is the big thing now it seems
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:48] Bejiita Imako: but there are lot of probs
[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: and dentures as well
[13:48] Mistyowl Warrhol: And who help start the movement to the Chineses? Who can we blame for that?
[13:49] Farv Hallison: We have to prepare for our own local survival by growing our food locally.
[13:49] herman Bergson: what I wanted you to show today is that the basic ideas about man of Ayn Rand are completely outdated and beside the point...
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:49] herman Bergson: actually...utopian....she thinks that the real human being is a Mr.Spock, I guess ㋡
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: i agree, it is not reasonable
[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe maybee
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Was Mr Spock selfish?
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: well unfortunatley star trek isn't real
[13:50] herman Bergson: OK...so far so good....
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): emotionless
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: its just one of the best sci fi ever made
[13:50] Farv Hallison: MrSpock was rational.
[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Emotionless but not selfish
[13:50] herman Bergson: we'll move on in a next lecture to dismantle the utopia of the free market....
[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: oki
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: that can be interesting
[13:51] herman Bergson: and read your newspapers....search for the examples...
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:51] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Mr Spock could see the benefit in cooperation
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe well i se plenty every day in the news
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:51] Mistyowl Warrhol: The major agree on what is reasonable, but we bow to the power of the rich's version of reason. We need to take back the balance of power.
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: and nmost of them make me mad
[13:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Annie...quite possible....but in Rand's view..sharing is the worst you can do
[13:51] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Yes and that is why she was wrong
[13:52] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): She didn't understand
[13:52] herman Bergson: no she didn't at all at that point....she missed evolutionary insight completely
[13:52] herman Bergson: she was stuck in the old philosophical traditions
[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you next week!
[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:53] herman Bergson: May Ithank you all for you participation.... ㋡
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: really interesting as always Herman
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:53] Mistyowl Warrhol: Hugs Gemma
[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i SHARE my appreciatiion
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all
[13:53] Mistyowl Warrhol: I can tell my missed a good lecture.
[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, Bye every1
[13:54] Jaelle Faerye: Bye Merlin
[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: bye merlin
[13:54] Farv Hallison: and we missed you, MistyOwl.
[13:54] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Perhaps Michael Jordan could be brought in as an example?
[13:55] Farv Hallison: bye Lizzy, you have a nice butt.
[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: lol, ... byee Farv
[13:55] Mistyowl Warrhol: Ty Farv :)
[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): When he started to be less selfish , his points tally went down but the Bulls won
[13:55] Sybyle Perdide: good bye
[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar) shrugs
[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: good byee
[13:55] Jaelle Faerye: Bye all
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡
[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: waves*
[13:56] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: TC everyone.. til next time.
[13:56] Mistyowl Warrhol: Sorry for being late, Herman..

384: The Utopia of the Free Market ... Ayn Rand ethics

One of the most influential persons at the cradle of today's financial crisis is Allen Greenspan (1926), till 2006 president of the Fed, the Federal Reserve Bank, a powerful financial institution in the US and internationally.

He himself is not so convinced of his responsibility of the crisis. He prefers to blame 'human nature'. According to him it is a common fact that in times of prosperity people only want more and more.

The tenth commandment of christianity is "You shall not covet
your neighbor's goods.", which you could interpret as the advise, that you should control yourself, be content with what you possess and not be greedy.

In the book "Atlas Shrugged", in the creation of which Allen Greenspan played an important role, Ayn Rand turns the world upside down.

When she describes her utopia, her Atlantis, in her book "Atlas Shrugged", then chapter 2 in part III carries the title "The Utopia of Greed".

So, let's focus on Ayn Rand's philosophical ideas. She describes her philosophy of Objectivism thus:
1.Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

2.Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

3.Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

4.The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism.

In short is means 1. Metaphysics: Realism, 2. Epistemology: Reason, 3: Ethics: Self-interest and 4. Politics: Capitalism. Let's have a closer look at 'Reason'.

It sounds so obvious, that you are immediately inclined to say: sure... yes.. absolutely true. But let me ask you a simple question.... it says "reason is a means". We all will claim that we use our reason every day, but how does reason work? What kind of machinery is it?

"Philosopy: Who Needs It", pg 62: "Reason integrates man’s perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions, thus raising man’s knowledge from the perceptual level, which he shares with animals, to the conceptual level, which he alone can reach. The method which reason employs in this process is logic—and logic is the art of non-contradictory identification." Ayn Rand.

If this is a knowledge claim and I can't read it otherwise, I really have serious questions to ask, especially while Ayn Rand holds the view that we are born with an empty mind, a tabula rasa. All we know, we know by experience only. In other words..who sent her this revelation about reason?

Let us first put it into historical perspective. Historically we have two kinds of reason. The 17th century philosophers like Descartes saw Reason as opposed to Experience, while the philosophers of the Enlightenment saw Reason as opposed to Faith.

When we take an overall view of the work of Ayn Rand, her ardent condemnation of mysticism and religion, I would conclude that she uses the concept of reason in the way as the Enlightenment philosophers like D'Alembert and Voltaire did: reason as opposed to faith.

That doesn't bring us much further, but it is a start. The question I still want to see answered is, how can we have knowledge of the existence of reason?

In this form it becomes very clear that the question raises at least two highly disputable issues. First, it is far from immediately clear what reasoning is, on what occasion, in what activities or processes, reason is exercised.

And second, if we determine, probably with some degree of arbitrariness, what reasoning is (according to Rand it is "using logic"), it may very well be highly disputable whether this or that can or cannot be achieved by reasoning.

So, in the end, saying that reason is the only guide man has to survive is not clarifying the human condition that much. And if reason is opposed to faith I even encounter a paradox in Randianism, for you have to accept the truth of her philosophical axioms in good faith, which is against reason.

In my previous project I have shown, that reason is an overestimated faculty and that consciousness and our interaction with our environment for our survival is much more complex than the statement that there exists an objective world, which we understand by means of our reason.

A simplification, however, a simplification that is believed by many followers of Ayn Rand. Just google on this name or do a search with it in YouTube. Then you see, that it is still a current topic in the US.


The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you.....
[13:21] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T * ::::::::::
[13:21] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)
[13:21] Merlin Saxondale: Herman
[13:21] herman Bergson: Merlin... ㋡
[13:22] Merlin Saxondale: When we started this I thought you were in great a greememt with Rand, but now you seem less so.
[13:22] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:22] herman Bergson: I never have been in agreement with Rand Merlin....
[13:23] Merlin Saxondale: Oh OK. It was my first impression at the first talk
[13:23] herman Bergson: First of all....using words like reason giv ethe impression that you are talking about something distinct...
[13:23] Qwark Allen: what come to my mind when you talked about that "reason" definition, is that after all, it`s ruled the same way as "free will"
[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes that can be true
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: seems related in a way
[13:24] Mick Nerido: Rand reason = common sense?
[13:24] Qwark Allen: somehow, feeling that reason and freewill are not on our side
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: cause its our will that make us eason
[13:24] Qwark Allen: like we have seen before
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: reason
[13:24] herman Bergson: in the previous project we have learnt how th ebrain wokrks....and that is definitely doesnt work only by using reason (whatever that may be)
[13:24] Bejiita Imako: at least in some way
[13:24] Qwark Allen: we are orientated to the reason , "others" want
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: if i say i have a reason for something its because my own will make me reason that way
[13:25] herman Bergson: Waht I want to make clear from the beginnning at least is that Rand's philosophy is begging the question
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: whan I want
[13:26] herman Bergson: she just defines her concepts as it suits her philosophicla interpretation of the human being
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: but reasoning is also about taking into conciderationn some ethic rules i think, is this om to do?
[13:26] herman Bergson: and his motives and drives
[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: reason is also influenced by education, not only logic
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ok
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: to do
[13:26] Qwark Allen: its very cultural thing
[13:26] oola Neruda: i was struck by the phrase... not sacrifice others...which i see as counter to the rest of what she has said
[13:26] Mick Nerido: we are in agreement that there is an objective reality...
[13:27] Qwark Allen: and in our society ruled by mass media
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy, but we then first need a clear definition of reason....
[13:27] herman Bergson: We know that it is a brain function...even coming from which part...
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: aa yes we reason in a certain way cause we either have learned that it works this and that way and this and this is ok and that is not
[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: thus reason must by very individual
[13:27] Bejiita Imako: however some people reason otherwise it seems
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is aninteresting point too Bejiita...
[13:28] Mick Nerido: Reason is one way of seeing that ojective world...
[13:28] herman Bergson: the generalization of the concept of Reason.....
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: greedy people for ex reason only for their own cares and dont care all about others
13:28] Bejiita Imako: but they still reason that "its ok"
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: and sleep well at night
[13:28] Bejiita Imako: seems so
[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita... ㋡
[13:29] herman Bergson: And they base their reasoning on the ideas of self-interest as developed by Ayn Rand
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that can very much be true
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: getting bad influences
[13:29] herman Bergson: And then say...well....this is just how an objective reality functions...
[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that affect their reasoning
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: in a bad way
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: that greesiness is ok
[13:30] herman Bergson: I am a part of this objective reality as my reason is...so I am objective in what I do
[13:30] Bejiita Imako: greediness
[13:30] herman Bergson: no...we shouldn't use the word greediness anymore form now on...
[13:30] herman Bergson: we call it self-interest
[13:31] Mistyowl Warrhol: Think you had it right the first time, Bejiita. greesiness :)
[13:31] Qwark Allen: ehhee i was thinking the same
[13:31] Qwark Allen: sticks the same way to people
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehehe well they really are some greasy types some of those rich high ones up there
[13:31] Mistyowl Warrhol: Grease the hand, etc.
[13:31] herman Bergson: hello Clerisse ㋡
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: a big mess
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: big and sticky mess
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:32] Clerisse Beeswing: Hello Professor ! Sorry I am late
[13:32] Mick Nerido: Nations behave the same for their self interest
[13:32] herman Bergson: The main idea of Rand is that altruism is a horror, the biggest mistake mankind made ever
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes that as well
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: North Korea is an extreme example of that id say
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: really sad story
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: that need to be changed
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: read some article recently in the news about it
[13:33] Qwark Allen: i agree totally with Ayn in some things, and totaly disagree in other
[13:33] Qwark Allen: she had a really good vision what was about to society to become
[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Qwark....yes but not the way she dreamt it would go...
[13:34] Mick Nerido: In America there is the "frontier" mentality... rugged individualism
[13:34] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: it is fascinating that she has a logic concept
[13:34] herman Bergson: the current neoliberalism, the Tea Party ideas....
[13:34] herman Bergson: all aiming at destroying the welfare state...
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:35] Mistyowl Warrhol: Reason is the process we use to take past experiences and knowledge with what feels good to us, to create a truth we think should apply to all. That is reasonable, unless you disagree with that 'reasonable" person.
[13:35] herman Bergson: destroying on what principle we used in the 60s.....solidarity as the leading principle of a society
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes might be
[13:35] Qwark Allen: seems every time more a utopia
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes unfortunatley
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: gets worse and worse instead
[13:36] Qwark Allen: yes
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: going in completely wrong direction
[13:36] herman Bergson: all privatization these days....all utopia of the working of the free market....!
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: really worrying
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: but solidarity is reasonable, isn't it?
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example....
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: in sweden they have ruined both the reailroads and the eldery care by privatizing them
[13:37] herman Bergson: We have notaries in the Netherlands....
[13:37] herman Bergson: They used to have fixed rates....
[13:37] herman Bergson: There was a TV program on how to make a good testament....
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and now the old people die in their feces because the owner want to build a luxury house worth 6 million dollars
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: really nasty
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and the railroads here work worse and worse and get so expensive its cheaper to fly instead
[13:38] Merlin Saxondale: Someone said that before
[13:38] herman Bergson: the rates for that specific action ran from 215 euro to 690 euro....for the same action!
[13:38] Bejiita Imako: that's insane
[13:38] Qwark Allen: awesome
[13:38] herman Bergson: The rates are free note....free market...competition...you remember...
[13:38] herman Bergson: well...
[13:39] herman Bergson: the old fixed rat e for the action was 460 euro....
[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes that's how it all works today
[13:39] herman Bergson: what happened....
[13:39] Mistyowl Warrhol: Breaking news on CNN. maybe a little bit about what we are discussing.. "Dow closes over 13,000 for first time since 2008 after a 25-point gain on lower crude prices and strong consumer report." Speaking of greed.
[13:39] herman Bergson: within a week ALL notaries in the Netherlands charged 460 euro for the action...
[13:39] herman Bergson: thta is how this so called free market should work...
[13:40] herman Bergson: One big mistake....
[13:40] Merlin Saxondale: Do I need to know what notaries are?
[13:40] herman Bergson: Same with the dentists this year.....
[13:40] Qwark Allen: according to ayn rand the free market should have rules, and rulers
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes you cant just let it run away like it does today
[13:41] herman Bergson: these are layers...special kind who draw up testaments, mortgage contracts things like that
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: then the greedy ones take over and everything escalates
[13:41] Merlin Saxondale: ah ok ty
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: thats what we see today
[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...take the dentists for instance....
[13:41] Qwark Allen: omg
[13:41] herman Bergson: They clal it an experiment...
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: banks health care everything will soon be only for rich people and the poor will not survive, that seems the way they reason in general
[13:41] Bejiita Imako: that to survive you need lot of money
[13:42] herman Bergson: They had fixed rates...and this year they are free to set their rates...
[13:42] Zinzi Serevi: i have to go, thanks for the lecture Herman , bye bye all
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: money
[13:42] herman Bergson: Should stimulate competition...
[13:42] Mick Nerido: we could go back to the Feodal system lol
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ok ZInzi
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: bye
[13:42] herman Bergson: And you know what happened....all dentists increased their rates
[13:42] Beertje Beaumont: yesterday I heard that 30% !! of the households in the Netherlands can't pay their regular bills
[13:42] Qwark Allen: in a way we are at a feudal system, ruled by few organizations
[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:43] Qwark Allen: no longer politics are in charge
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: the bosses of the organizations
[13:43] Qwark Allen: but lobbies
[13:43] Clerisse Beeswing: even in usa things cost
[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: and now people come all to germany for the teeth
[13:43] Hagar: ellos
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy.... ㋡
[13:43] Merlin Saxondale: People were going to Hungary etc from UK for dentistry
[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes dental ahd healthcare should logically be something for everyone but not today
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and
[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Now the Hungarian dentists have come here.
[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Mine is one!
[13:44] herman Bergson: So, I guess you see how important it is that we dismantle the Utopia of the Free Market....
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aa yes it has gone totally out of control
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: cause nothing to create ethic rules
[13:44] Bejiita Imako: the bosses and directors decide
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: it becomes like a nuclear reactor with no control rods = KABOOOOOM!
[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: and we can't trust the politicians
[13:45] Merlin Saxondale: lol
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: runaway
[13:45] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:45] Beertje Beaumont: oh yes Bejiita
[13:45] Qwark Allen: that is why i like ayn rand, and her vision, we should make the separation of state and economics
[13:45] herman Bergson: next lecture I'll elaborate on the third point of Rand's philosophy
[13:45] herman Bergson: 3.Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
[13:45] Qwark Allen: so politics are not on government for the economics
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: yeah. I missed that one as a child
[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: lol Merlin
[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: Jesus's selflessness was the big thing then
[13:46] herman Bergson: The big debate is Keyensian against Neoliberalism or worse..the Tea Party ideas...
[13:47] Mistyowl Warrhol: Not getting any arguments from me about the Tea Party.
[13:47] oola Neruda: with the super pacs funding campaigns now... i think that an elected post is "bought" by a rich few
[13:47] oola Neruda: who pull the strings of the ones they have funded
[13:47] Qwark Allen: off course
[13:47] herman Bergson: I'll show you that the way our society is organized is not an basolute...an obvious conclusion....
[13:47] herman Bergson: Economy has its own history too...
[13:48] herman Bergson: Our idea of making profit is only a 15o years old
[13:48] Mick Nerido: The world id flat...
[13:48] Qwark Allen: hehehe
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well Columbus showed us that the earth was round in 1492 ㋡
[13:49] Qwark Allen: vasco da gamma, was first in americas then colombo
[13:49] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:49] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: when you are living in this profit system you have to adapt or you will go down
[13:49] herman Bergson: ok...Next lecture on the ethics of Rand.....
[13:49] Mick Nerido: Flat econimically speaking :-00
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation ㋡
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: time will tell about anything else
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman
[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!
[13:50] Qwark Allen: i think the iranians want to flat the world in another way
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:50] Mistyowl Warrhol: Interesting :-)
[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: Thanks professor
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: very interesting as always
[[13:50] Qwark Allen: very interesting
[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu next time
[13:50] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`
[13:50] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:50] Mick Nerido: Iran just wants to join the club
[13:51] Beertje Beaumont: thank you professor
[13:51] Qwark Allen: i think they want to flat the world
[13:51] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe no north korea is
[13:51] Qwark Allen: lets see how it goes this year
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: first Kim starves his own people then annihilate us all with nuclear weapons
[13:51] Qwark Allen: hehehehe
[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hope that does NOT happen
[13:51] herman Bergson: yes exciting times Bejiita...
[13:51] Merlin Saxondale: Bye Herman and everyone
[13:52] Bejiita Imako: shudders
[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody
[13:52] Qwark Allen: yes, that will be the end of this class for sure
[13:52] Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°• Bye ! •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜ ㋡