405: The Utopia of the Free Market - Adam Smith

The ideas of Ayn Rand in her utopia "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) can hardly be called original. Like she borrowed almost literally the ideas on property from John Locke (1632 - 1704), thus she took the ideas of Adam Smith (1723 - 1790) on self-interest too.

Adam Smith, a philosopher of the Scottish Enlightenment like his contemporary David Hume (1711 - 1776), was a brilliant observer.

In 1759 he published his "Theory of the Moral Sentiments". Not some metaphysical treatise on ethics, but an attempt to deduce from observation general moral principles.

The same approach we find in his famous "An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" from 1776.

You really should read it, or at least a few chapters.

You will be amazed and become a witness of the first steps into a market society, the first attempts of mass production, the division of labor,

and the immense important discovery by Adam Smith, that the value of products depends on  the labor that is put in. Thus, the real commodity of value in an economy is labor.

It is really exciting to read his observations and interpretations. His style is clear and very readable. At the end of the lecture I'll give you information where to find "The Wealth of Nations" as it is usually called.

An example: -quote

In almost every other race of animals each individual, when it is grown up to maturity, is entirely independent, and in its natural state has occasion for the assistance of no other living creature. 

But man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brethren, and it is in vain for him to expect it from their benevolence only.

He will be more likely to prevail if he can interest their self-love in his favour, and show them that it is for their own advantage to do for him what he requires of them. (p.16, An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations,1776,  Adelaide edition 2008)

- end quote

By the way, did you notice the expression "every other race of animals"?  We have to wait for Darwin at least another 100 years. Did Smith see th human being already as an animal among animals, only a more special animal?

And then on the next page probably the most often quoted passage: - quote

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. 

We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages. Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of his fellow-citizens.

- end quote

Ayn Rand couldn't get it better. A clear statement that the basic drive of the human being is self-love, or, as she preferred to call it: self-interest.

Just listen to this: - quote

I find it remarkable that our ideas about the beneficence of competition have remained essentially unchanged since the time of the Enlightenment, when they were first formulated. 

This was mainly due to one man: Adam Smith. In a sense, the history of capitalism and the competitive market is still the story of the ups and downs of the ideas of Adam Smith.

- end quote

From the biography of Allen Greenspan (2007). He may be right within the context of the primitive economy of the utopian Atlantis in "Atlas Shrugged", but for the rest he looks at Adam Smith too much with his Randian Objectivist glasses.

As I said in the beginning, Adam Smith writes as a brilliant observer, but an observer of HIS time. He generalizes, what he observes in the period of 1768 to 1778, the time he worked on "The Wealth of the Nations". But to make it into general economic laws, like Greenspan suggested, is one a step too far.

As I promised you, I'll tell you where to find this book for free. There are two great places of free ebooks of world literature in many fiefs: Gutenberg.org and the University of Adelaide, Australia.

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/smith/adam/s64w/complete.html#chapter4

If your print routine has that option, you can print the book to .PDF format.

If you have the opportunity you definitely should at least page through Book One of "The wealth of Nations". You will be amazed and impressed.

To be continued…

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you ㋡

[13:23] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

[13:23] herman Bergson: Got a URL of the Archive you mentioned Penelope?

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks herman

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Its good for us when things are out of copyright

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Professor

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes - like open knowledge.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin.....there is so much available now...

[13:24] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): http://archive.org/index.php

[13:24] herman Bergson: thnx Penelope

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah thanks doll

[13:25] herman Bergson: Besides that Google is digitizing books too, but I dont know a URL for what Google is doing

[13:25] Kime Babenco: My first notion about something mentioned... Humans are animals, is a bit extreme... I think... Of course we are biological and have a natural feeling to survive... But it's not comparable I think

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: i found this: The Project Gutenberg website is for human users only. so its not for animals, isn't it?

[13:25] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): tugs Lizzy's braid from behind

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): For some animals... us

[13:25] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): (Lizzy, behave!)

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): In what way are we not animals, just with big brains?

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well...it is remarkable that Smith already assumed that th ehuman being belongs to the animal kingdom

[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: oh who said we had big brains?

[13:26] herman Bergson: I cant read it otherwise

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so not for me Lizzy? being a 'Beer'?

[13:27] herman Bergson: It surprised me at least....his words

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Some of these apparent philosophical arguments are just arguments about the meanings of words

[13:27] Kime Babenco: Not only... behaviour... as well... And we don't have such as called animal instinct... A lower feeling of intuition maybe, if not mislead by the brains

[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: he was far ahead of his time

[13:27] herman Bergson: Let's keep it a bit serious and to the point plz ㋡

[13:27] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): yes, Prof is trying to make a legitimate point

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): who's not serious

[13:27] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): it's very worth discussing

[13:28] herman Bergson: Most important point in his Wealth of the NAtions is the fact that he clearly stated that labor is the real value of things

[13:28] Mick Nerido: Productivity advances make nations wealthier...

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): So one way we are different is self interest motivates our actions

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe he was not far ahead of his time..maybe we are oldfashion in thinking of the free market

[13:28] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): but Prof, doesn't that lead directly to Marx, yes?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Penelope....

[13:29] herman Bergson: and in fact to our time too.....

[13:29] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): AND to Ayn Rand"

[13:29] herman Bergson: we have the "rule" that everybody should work....

[13:29] herman Bergson: those who can but do not work we call unemployed…

[13:30] Mick Nerido: or inherited there wealth

[13:30] herman Bergson: so employment is a great value of the free market

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Strange idea.... surely we would be better off with less stuff and more philosophy?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Fact is that in the utopia of Thomas More working was a must too....laziness was forbidden...

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think that is a silly attitude

[13:31] herman Bergson: well full employment has become a believe of our times....

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the people who are unemployed are not nessecarely lazy

[13:31] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): oh I see where Prof is going

[13:31] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): but Prof

[13:32] Mick Nerido: Goes back to Adam and Eve...

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It reminds me of the workplace boss that just looks to see if you are busy

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): But say we all had friday off - then it wouldn't be laziness - just scaling our efforts better.

[13:32] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): surely this kind of ethic predated the 1700's?

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and not at what you achieve

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I like efficiency

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): economy of effort if possible

[13:33] herman Bergson: full emplyment was not an idea in the Middle Ages at all...

[13:33] Ana (anasyro): i think these questions put in the discussion can be better anwered by using some of the more actual analysts of our time...like habermas and the tradition that was the basis of his writings

[13:33] herman Bergson: subsistance economy then prevailed

[13:33] Ana (anasyro): somehow we try to connect existential issues with functional ones

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I've heard they had quite a nice life in those days, lots of leisure time

[13:33] Ana (anasyro): and that does not explain the dynamics between them

[13:34] herman Bergson: Our situation is now quite different from Adam Smith's situation....

[13:34] Mick Nerido: The wealthy in Spain for example distain manual labor...

[13:34] herman Bergson: But his analysis is so basic and clear

[13:35] Kime Babenco: Being employed or having a job is a very elastic expression... One can work for a company, or themselves... A fixed salary working from 9 to 5 , or running a business... Or feeling to be part of it ... Inspiration... Not ?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....manual labor has been disdained tot 1700 or so....

[13:35] Ana (anasyro): bye...have fun

[13:36] Mick Nerido: The unemployed are the new serfs

[13:36] Kime Babenco: I am not promoting any kind of job...

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): serfs used to work though!

[13:37] herman Bergson: I still have no understanding of how to look at our present situation...

[13:37] herman Bergson: this so called free market, which Smith saw emerge in his time.

[13:38] Kime Babenco: As I already told in a previous meeting... The world has seen already the end of communism... and today we are facing that capitalism is not working either

[13:38] herman Bergson: So if you have the opportunity....read at least a few chapters of book one of The Wealth of Nations….

[13:38] Kime Babenco: Not in the way we have had so far

[13:38] herman Bergson: and compare it with our present situation

[13:39] herman Bergson: true Kime

[13:39] herman Bergson: so many are looking for a new answer....

[13:40] herman Bergson: From Tea Party to Keyens

[13:40] WAINSCOT reports: Fred123 Aiten is on your land now!

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): Any answer has to address over population and over consumption fairly

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): external drivers that never existed before

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: the answer can only be a more authoritarian system with more rules

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes....but look at the situation in Greece....

[13:41] herman Bergson: a situation I don't understand at all....

[13:41] Kime Babenco: WE have to find a middle way... a common way... Of course it's a bit normal that someone who works very hard earns more than someone who is unemployed and not even trying to find a job.... But on the other hand, a society is rewarded on what it does for the weak ones... = human society... Otherwise we are animals = survival of the toughest

[13:42] herman Bergson: On the one hand you have had decennia of governments that cheated...

[13:42] herman Bergson: manipulated figures and took the money from the EU

[13:42] herman Bergson: on the other hand there is the population that voted for their governments...

[13:43] Jaelle Faerye: bye all I have to run

[13:43] herman Bergson: and now Greece is forced by the EU to severe financial reductions...

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: the greece don't admit that they cheated

[13:43] herman Bergson: and the people is protesting.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: as if there is a people that is in its rights and a goverment that isnt...

[13:44] Kime Babenco: It's not only that: The financial first rule is that stock holding is the highest risc to earn money... Governments should have never rescued any bank... only paying those people who had save their money there... Not the risc takers

[13:44] herman Bergson: The country is deeply corrupt...

[13:44] herman Bergson: and they don't admit it

[13:45] herman Bergson: Their tax system and its civil servants are corrupt...

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: can still listen from outside

[13:45] herman Bergson: these are know facts

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): <- quietly listening

[13:45] herman Bergson: I realy don't see how to solve such a situation

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i presume we..that means the EU..are loosing our money to Greece

[13:46] Mick Nerido: Greece will leave the EU

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: in Greece they stop working at the age of 55, in France 60 and in Germany 67

[13:46] Kime Babenco: Yes, very probably... try to bring them for justice... would be hard... costs even more and will not help... Freeze all their families goods and accounts in any country... (if possible !!!)

[13:47] herman Bergson: Netherlands 65

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): South-Africa 65

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): greece is going to bankruptcy

[13:47] herman Bergson: Just the idea of stopping at 55.....we already have problems financing 65

[13:47] herman Bergson: Hello Your Majesty

[13:48] QueenOfNorway Alex raises hand

[13:48] Kime Babenco: That's an idea of when people lived for average as long as 65 years

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: hi queenie, take a seat:-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: Could be Kime

[13:48] QueenOfNorway Alex: oooops

[13:48] Kime Babenco: Remember the Beatles... "will you still love me when I am 64 ?"

[13:49] Qwark Allen: press shfit+arrow to get hand down

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ow..that 's óld!

[13:49] QueenOfNorway Alex: i cannot hear the audio

[13:49] herman Bergson: There is no audio Your Majesty....

[13:49] herman Bergson: We are the silent majority

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:49] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:49] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:49] QueenOfNorway Alex: oh dear :)

[13:49] herman Bergson: Anyway…

[13:50] herman Bergson: try to get hold on The Wealth of NAtions and read a few chapters of book one....

[13:50] Kime Babenco: Yes

[13:50] herman Bergson: it helps to get a better understanding of the free market idea in 1778

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think that all efforts to regain financial stability hinge on changing the model of free energy, ever expanding markets, and consumption. We can't eat our way out of resource depletion.

[13:51] herman Bergson: I agree Debbie.....

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): ;)

[13:51] herman Bergson: The idea of everlasting growth is a myth

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): YESSS

[13:51] herman Bergson: if that is our goal...growth...we are on the wrong track

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That was why I mentioned chain letters once

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yet all efforts by government are about ramping up the growth again.

[13:52] herman Bergson: this earth is a finite object...how can growth then be infinite?

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): exactly

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): People think it is like a balloon expanding. that everything can go on getting bigger

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and then ...POOF..

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: nothing is infinite, ... the universe probably ...

[13:53] Merlin: hehe yes

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): So how do we influence this, so that those in power see the problem correctly?

[13:53] herman Bergson: exactly Beertje ㋡

[13:53] Qwark Allen: not even the universe

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think we need stability

[13:53] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well sorry to be gloomy but I think we have lost it

[13:53] Kime Babenco: When I was at school aged 14, someone asked why people in some countries choose for communism and not for free market... I understand a bit... they had free medicine , free food , and free education in such communist countries... In USA free health care is one step too far it seems

[13:54] herman Bergson: Well....we face a complex future.....

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, I agree. But the planet will survive. The question now is how many people die off.

[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): young people do anyway

[13:54] herman Bergson: so let's continue with a next lecture on THursday....maybe then we get a little bit wiser then

[13:54] QueenOfNorway Alex: the growth problem we all need to start with ourselves to stop that craving... the "need" to buy new fashion clothes and shoes and everything fancier because fashion changes...

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): This is exactly what James Lovelock says Herman

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): mankind will survive as an animal

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): as a species

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): but not our society

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): Sadly, the ones with the guns will win.

[13:56] herman Bergson: yes maybe we'll be decimated first....then there is room for growth again ㋡

[13:56] QueenOfNorway Alex: i think society can survive... and more easy in areas where they live off the nature

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): a world over-run by tribes with war-lords in charge

[13:56] QueenOfNorway Alex: like where i come from... fishery...

[13:56] Mick Nerido: Thanks all bye

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But Alex.....

[13:56] Qwark Allen: think that soon we`ll be 9 billions

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): You cannot have one part surviving along

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): alone

[13:56] herman Bergson: We'll continue our discussion next Thursday....

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There would be too much pressure from everyone else

[13:56] herman Bergson: for now...thank you all for your participation.... ㋡

[13:57] herman Bergson: class dismissed ^_^

[13:57] Kime Babenco: We all like to help when we see people in trouble on TV . But maybe it's the problem they are too many...

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to YOU!

[13:57] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**  **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:57] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all

404: The Utopia of the Free Market - private property

Thomas More (1478 - 1535) writes in his Utopia" Wherever you are, you always should work. There is no excuse for laziness" But only 6 hours a day. 

You must keep in mind that from the Ancient Greek till the 16th century,  it was not done to get rich by working.

You increased your wealth by war and conquering enemies. Thus the first thing a conquering army did in those days was to plunder. 

Contrary to tradition, labor does not only mean the creation of wealth and prosperity for the Utopians, but also to take in possession the land that they work on.

And when the number of Utopians increased and there wasn't land enough a group moved on to reclaim new land by their labor, driving away the natives who never had done anything with the land.

This is still Thomas More speaking, but aren't you recognizing already a familiar pattern? Here you get implicitly all theory on labor, private property and colonization as formulated by John Locke.

Where it was only a Utopia for Thomas More, more than a hundred years later it was reality for John Locke (1632 - 1704), closely related to the development of individualism (think of the Cartesian Cogito).

This brought Locke to the view, that is was a law of nature that every human being owns his own person. And the next step was: "The labor of his body and the work by his hands, we can say, really belong to him".

Thence, when  a person cultivates land, the land and the products of the land are his property. With this theory of labor and private property the colonization of America was easily justified.

In those days two free markets opened: one of labor and one of land as private property. Labor and land can be bought and sold. Thus dissolved the traditional bonds of community and reciprocity.

This led to the situation that the buyer just "bought" labor by paying wages. When the wages were hardly enough to keep the worker alive, that was no longer the responsibility of the buyer of labor.

Thus liberalism was born,which was literally copied by Ayn Rand for her utopia, Atlantis. In "The Ayn Rand Lexicon", paragraph "Property rights" we read that every person possesses his own body 

and from this one derives the right "to think, to work and to keep the results - which means the right of property". Locke's ideas directly copied into Atlantis.

A justification of individualism and private property in a more moral context I found in The Internet Encyclopedia of philosophy:

-quote

When effectively protected by the state, the right to private property secures for human individuals a sphere of personal jurisdiction, the right to acquire and hold the props, as it where, with which to order one’s life. 

Moral virtues such as generosity, kindness, courage, moderation, prudence and the rest are all imperatives,  which are meaningful, when you engage with the natural world. 

If one is not in charge of some of that world, at least oneself, one cannot conduct oneself virtuously. So the right to one’s life, liberty and property are necessary conditions for a morally significant or meaningful life in human communities.

It needs to be noted here, as a significant aside, that even if we are essentially individuals, this doesn’t mean we are not also naturally members of societies. 

But, as moral agents and as candidates for membership in some human communities or societies, we are morally responsible to take into consideration and never neglect the fact 

that we must judge those societies as to whether they do adequate justice to our individuality, most generally, and whether they best serve our flourishing.

- end quote.

Here you have the ingredients of the free market: individualism as our basic social belief, labor, that can be bought and private property as a sphere of personal jurisdiction.

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you....

[13:19] herman Bergson: The floor is yours for remarks and questions ㋡

[13:20] Kime Babenco: Thanks professor

[13:20] Debbie Dee (framdor): mmm

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thinking

[13:21] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:21] Velvet (velvet.braham): Not much controversy this week!

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i guess we are all set to town property

[13:21] Kime Babenco: I guess there is a lot of confusion on common property and individual property as well here. For example.. The oil.. Does it own to the dictators of a country ? To the company it explores it ? Or to the common wellness of a country ?

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:21] herman Bergson: Most important issue of today is that the balance shifted to individualism

[13:21] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well I thought it was just me, but I found it difficult to concentrate today

[13:22] herman Bergson: Wasnt easy Merlin...indeed

[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): Shifting to individualism give one more control over one's life.

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: is privat property really a sphere of personal jurisdiction? I doubt on that

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I wondered

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): so does the utopian ideal best serve our flourishing?

[13:23] herman Bergson: Well Lizzy...that is the big issue....

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well first of all we need the money usually to get pproperty

[13:23] Velvet (velvet.braham): my private property is!

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and then pay taxes to the state so others can get to my porperty

[13:23] herman Bergson: th epoint is that we now live in a society where labor as well as private property are restricted in all kinds of way

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): You can never really own property - it was there long before you, and you die....

[13:23] oola Neruda: the best way to get a million dollars is to start with four million dollars

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oola

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:24] oola Neruda: it's true

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie just said something profound

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): doh;)

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think of my property as mine, but she's right

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): its like trying to own a river

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That came up in a previous week

[13:24] herman Bergson: No..it is about a legal right to the possession of objects...

[13:25] herman Bergson: not the fact that they existed already before you came on earth...

[13:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes thats it. you have a right - you don't really own the property

[13:25] herman Bergson: My house in RL is older than me for instance...but it is private property

[13:25] Mick Nerido: your home is your castle

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): okay, so we're back to my property being mine.... for now.

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: you can't do on your land what you want, every society has rules

[13:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): well - the rights have been passed on for money.

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Another example, if you own an island you cannot be its government

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie, only for the next two years!

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): then it's MINE

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): a lease?

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): oh i seee ;)

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): mortgage

[13:26] herman Bergson: That is a funny issue Merlin....

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): what if your beach side property falls in the sea?

[13:26] herman Bergson: You can possess an island indeed...

[13:27] herman Bergson: but normaly it is within the borders of an existing country

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that happens debbie

[13:27] Kime Babenco: Yes, if you have the money.. (and hurry... )

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): better have good insurance

[13:27] Mick Nerido: Sovernity is like ownership

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): During your life time - yes.

[13:27] oola Neruda: what responsibility do you have to the property/owner that is on your border... individualism can get sticky

[13:27] herman Bergson: There is something magic about it....

[13:28] herman Bergson: you own the island....and yet can not be the government….

[13:28] herman Bergson: it is an odd situation...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:28] herman Bergson: Just keep in mind that WE invented the idea of private property....

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: if i have jurisdiction on my property i could kill somebody on my land without being punished

[13:28] Mick Nerido: Look at the Falkins

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes MIck...good example...

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): what lizzy?

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as we invented most conventions in society

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Not in UK Lizzy

[13:29] oola Neruda: i could poison the groundwater under my property

[13:29] Jaelle Faerye: it's the animal notion of territory, somehow, i think

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: nowhere

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): In uk you cannot even make it dangerous for intruders

[13:29] herman Bergson: oola !!! :-)

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): you cant kill somebody, just for being on the property you have rights to

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): booby traps etc

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: well you cant do bad things anywhere i hope

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): nods at Bejita

[13:29] oola Neruda: it is done all the time... to rivers and streams and the air as well

[13:29] Kime Babenco: Oh ?

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): wait, why are we killing people and poisoning groundwater?

[13:30] Mick Nerido: its like individual cells in a body

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm many countries dump acids and other chemicals like cyanide and so right out

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: don't be afraid i am a peaceful person,:-)

[13:30] Kime Babenco: I have and electrical fence on top of my wall, (3meters high) with 8000 volts on it... better not to touch...

[13:30] herman Bergson: Wait.....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: thats not a good thing

[13:30] Mick Nerido: they must cooperate or the body dies

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): goodness

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, if your property is enveloped in radioactivity. like fukushima, what happens to your ownership?

[13:31] herman Bergson: all you say show that the concept of PRIVATE property isn't clear at all anymore

[13:31] herman Bergson: as it was to Locke

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: guess its lost then

[13:31] Kime Babenco: Exactly

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: cause how can you ever get to that without dying from radiation

[13:31] herman Bergson: But let's get to the core....

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): so did you ever own it then?

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we still have rights but must obey laws that protect the land of others nearby

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: interesting question

[13:31] herman Bergson: We are investigating the Utopia of the free market...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the invisible utopia

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): we are small parasites on the earth, and have never owned it.

[13:32] oola Neruda: ronald regan said government is the problem

[13:32] herman Bergson: and what we see here is that this market regarding private property isnt that free at all....

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: the own freedom is subordinated to common rights

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): we consume it.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes oola....

[13:32] herman Bergson: Like the Tea Party does....

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Debbie I agree

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): ty merlin ;)

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)

[13:33] Kime Babenco: Most countries not Japan) have their nuclear plants near the border with another country... So in case of accident, 50 % chance the wind drives it to another country.

[13:33] herman Bergson: So what the Tea Party people claim...less government is a Utopia too

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): well, too much government is a problem...

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: well nuclear plants always must be built so they can get cooling water

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:33] herman Bergson: Our situation has become so complex from a legal point of view....government or no government

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): so next to water resources.... very smart

[13:34] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example...

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): And the complexity is different in each country.

[13:34] herman Bergson: My computer...thta is private property...

[13:34] oola Neruda: some people say...get rid of the EPA

[13:34] Kime Babenco: But not on the beach as in Japan... the country that has 1000 earthquakes every year... and Tsunami is a Japanese word... That was really stupid to built it there

[13:34] herman Bergson: ok private means ..nobody may steal it....

[13:35] herman Bergson: but can I dispose of it just like that throwing it on the street?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed but probably the only way where they could get enough cooling so they should never built them ever in first place

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: no because you don't own the street

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: but everyone need power

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: and that must come from somewhere

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): but you could give it away.

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): the computer

[13:36] Mick Nerido: better erase the hard drive...

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): the power - we will have to learn to do with less

[13:36] Kime Babenco: Many countries and companies payed a lot to dictators to be allowed to get oil from those countries Is that steeling ?

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): give away the knowledge on the computer too.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie but the next owner has the same problem....private doesnt mean absolute freedom to do as you like with you r property

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hmm you should not waste energy like many does

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): you could throw the computer on the street

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): true herman.

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): what's stopping you?

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: but the industries still are needing lots, muhge motors welders and so that need to run 24/7 in paper moills ect

[13:37] Mick Nerido: what about intellectual property rights?

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes mick

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: the base insustry for making paper steel ect are also needing the most power

[13:37] herman Bergson: Interesting Mick...

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): Micro$oft would have you believe you cant give your computer software away

[13:38] herman Bergson: They are guaranteed by all kinds of laws...

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:38] Kime Babenco: I personally think... intellectual rights should not last longer than 3 years

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and now they scream about file sharing worse then murder sort of

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: the hollywood lawyers

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): Open source standards and software result in a bigger commons

[13:38] Mick Nerido: genes are even patented

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie an interesting development.....open source as the new commons...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and Apple sues everyone like kids in a sandbox throwing sand on each other

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): the phones, wifi, android, driving rules - all open standards

[13:39] Kime Babenco: That's beyond madness

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: for small things that seems you cant get patented by logical sense

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yet they can

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and wins

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: UUUGH

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have to go..sorry herman..rl is calling

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): by Beertje

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: TC Beertje

[13:39] Jaelle Faerye: bye Beertje, nice seeing you :)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Ok Beertje, you are excused of course

[13:40] herman Bergson: :-)

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cu beertje

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye B

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): I love the open source/ standards developments - we can build on top of each others foundations

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): a bit like sl ;)

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): I agree

[13:40] herman Bergson: Kind of intellectual communism ^_^

[13:41] Kime Babenco: Imagine just I invent something important... To require a pattent I would need so much money that I don't have...

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): it is, yes!

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes. I think it is a strong model to drive innovation

[13:41] oola Neruda: you need four million to make one million KIME

[13:41] Kime Babenco: Only big companies can

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: Linux should get a better chance, but one big thing that is in the way is all games today and also graphic cards do all performance on direct x which is windows only

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and thus gaming is locked to windows machines only

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): When i worked for a big corporation, patents were used to drive out competitors

[13:42] herman Bergson: that is the meaning of it indeed Debbie

[13:42] Kime Babenco: Good never one took a patent on the wheel... lol

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahaha yes that would be bad

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Causing monopolistic practices, that often didnt benefit society

[13:43] herman Bergson: One of the basics of traditional society....the redistribution of goods....related to the needs

[13:43] oola Neruda: the media is working on being monopolies

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: start as said to get really tired of these meaningless patent wars that end up with hindering development and giving us worse and locked down and more expensive products

[13:43] oola Neruda: competing monopolies

[13:43] herman Bergson: Now it is monopolizing goods...

[13:44] oola Neruda: so they can use propaganda effectively

[13:44] Kime Babenco: They are already protesting now on my video recorder... because I don't like to watch the publicities

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bottled water is my pet hate.

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: thats greediness by all means that apple uses, apple is greediness personified id say

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): ooooh wait, now we are back to Ayn Rand's Atlantis!

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): in software

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): some people are creating open source software

[13:44] herman Bergson: laughs...yes Debbie

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: thats sad cause they make good stuff in basics the computers are good but all could be much better

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and not locked down like iphone is for ex

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well tumble dryers are my pet hate

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: Apple want to control too much

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): next we will have potted air.

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): •´¨*•.¸. HahahaA •´¨*•.¸. 

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oops I'm Sorry!

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yeah merlin - use the washing line ;)

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :))

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: heheheh

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): our current situation around individuality, and owning stuff, is driving us into a wall at high speed.

[13:46] Kime Babenco: They should people that write computer viruses condemn to repay all damage they made by working in jail... Maybe then they will doubt a bit... However, frankly , I believe the antivirus distributers make some themselves

13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): Kime, you may have something there

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): heehe

[13:47] herman Bergson: the subjects of today to think about are private property ansd especially labor.....the fact that labor can be 'bought'

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): I have used open source software for 7 years now. I will never go back to broken Windows

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): We do get a long way off-topic sometimes

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...^_^

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes we do...

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): but it's fun ;)

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): one thing leads to another

[13:48] Kime Babenco: I hear in some countries... some people can be arrested, but buy freedom again... What nonsense is that ?

[13:48] herman Bergson: I'll continue next Tuesday with a next topic....

[13:48] Mick Nerido: thanks Herman

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Slightly off-topic but today's 'In Our Time' on BBC Radio4 was about Game Theory... which is a study of ethics.

[13:48] Kime Babenco: OK, Thanks Herman

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Professor

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): great lecture - thanks Prof

[13:48] Jaelle Faerye: thanks Herman

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ty

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always ㋡

[13:49] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your good participation in the debate again....

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Today was one to read back

[13:49] Fred123 Aiten: Thanks herman

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin, I understand your feeling...I agree

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you all next week

[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ok cu next time

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50] herman Bergson: I'll post it in the blog as soon as possible

[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye tout le monde

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): well bye all...

403: The Utopia of the Free Market - early communism

In a previous lecture (398) I quoted the Harvard professor of philosophy Michael Sandel….

`In recent decades, social inequality has increased, especially in the United States and parts of Europe. It is often seen as unjust relative to the poor.

That is true. But there is another reason to worry about the growing disparity between rich and poor. 

Too large a gap makes it increasingly difficult to see ourselves as citizens who share a common life. This damages the moral fabric, which our society is made of´, he says.

Now take this quote:

The rich will do anything to skimp the wages of the poor, it happens either by fraud or by general laws, 

so that the abuses that already exist (because it is an abuse,that those who do most for the state get the lowest pay) are exacerbated by the same state.

-end quote

There are the words of Thomas More (1478 - 1535) in his Utopia, a description of the ideal society.

Under the reign of Henry VIII, King of england from 1509 till 1547, at least 12.000 tramps and thieves (Marx  mentions 72.000) were hanged.

What was going on? The slow rise of a free market economy. The late medieval society slowly changed from a subsistence economy into a market economy.

In England this was among other things caused by the Church and nobility, who confiscated more and more commons.

Commons were free fields and meadows where the people of small communities all could  grow crops or graze their cattle.

But in those days wool was big money. So those in power  confiscated the commons for their sheep. 

The same you see happen today in China, where poor farmers are driven off their land by fraud or other means by those who are in power. They want the land for their money making projects.

The result in those days was a hugh mass of poor and deprived people who  really had to steal to survive.

The most peculiar fact is that this increase of poverty, while general wealth was increasing, wasn't understood in those days.

Adam Smith (1723 - 1790) still was puzzled by the enigma of increasing social prosperity accompanied by growing masses of paupers.

Thomas More, however, came with a possible answer 200 years earlier. 

-quote

"It seems to me, that everywhere, where private property exists and where everybody appreciates everything for its money value,

it hardly is possible, that there can be justice and happiness in the state, unless you hold the opinion, 

that there is justice, where the best goes to the worst people or that there is happiness where everything is obtained only by a few.

- end quote

Thus Thomas More formulated in his Utopia the first anti free market philosophy in the form of a kind of democratic communism: no money, no private property.

This concept has never left us since.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you.....

[13:22] herman Bergson: I want to add one remark to my lecture...

[13:22] herman Bergson: in More's days I don't think that they had a concept like 'unemployment' like we have now....

[13:23] herman Bergson: the floor is yours now ^_^

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Maybe the unemployed just died

[13:23] herman Bergson: Oh yes they did.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: poverty in those days was enormous....

[13:24] herman Bergson: People driven from their land....that is one side....

[13:24] herman Bergson: the other was the new phenomenon that you "sold" your labor power for wages....

[13:24] herman Bergson: But there weren't many jobs....

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, people just working for themselves

[13:25] herman Bergson: Later the factory became the only way of survival....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...you produced what you needed....or got it by barter

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Concerning money, There is a comparison with animals, where some males get all the females and others get none. Sea Lions? Gorillas?

[13:26] herman Bergson: That is an evolutionary process....

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Actually we are close to gorillas too

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I mean it is gross inequality

[13:27] herman Bergson: becoming a laborer in a factory is a cultural product

[13:27] herman Bergson: no...Merlin...

[13:27] herman Bergson: Because the male with the most females has also the best genes so contributes to the survival of the group

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): you could say the same about our social inequality

[13:28] herman Bergson: That the few get all the wealth and abuse the masses of poor people has nothing to do with evolution...just with greed

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): I'm not sure that men with the most women have the best genes in our society.

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): :)

[13:28] herman Bergson: No Velvet..I agree ^_^

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that can be true for sure

[13:29] herman Bergson: Tho there may still be atavistic features in our way to find a mate....there is too much culture in it too

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: but every person has criteria for choosing a partner

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well other animals don't have money.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: besides that....in our society also the weaker specimens of th ehomo sapiens survive and can have a fruitful life because of our medical care

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Maybe its true also of territory

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: a very disturbing thing is in the middle east where the parents force the daughter to marry who THEY choose and murder her if she refuse

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: this type of honor murders have become alarmingly high

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Bej

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: yes bejiita!

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: awful for sure

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: we have that in germany

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes it is Bejiita...

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The happen in England

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *they

[13:31] herman Bergson: But such things are the result of the culture people are brought up in

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: you cant control someones love feelings thats impossible

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): Here in the US, I just get the disapproving look from my mother. It's terrifying.

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: they brake the will if the girls

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): she's a force to be reckoned with.

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm..the LOOK is enough then...lol

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well...today's basic idea is that Thomas More formulated the 'remedy' against the developing free market

[13:33] herman Bergson: abandon private property...

[13:33] herman Bergson: abandon money....

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There was a saying 'Property is theft'

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't thing that myself tho

[13:34] herman Bergson: Thus Thomas More was at the roots of communism...

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are we going back to the time that people have to take care for their own survival?

[13:34] herman Bergson: That is from Marx Merlin

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): share everything for the benefit of the group

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: a sci fo example of that we see in star trek, thats the only way they could build those ships cause money was abandoned there and the value of the produced things themselves and what they could do was the important stuff

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: not money

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: think they say something about a system like that in TNG

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ah OK ty Herman. Most quotes come from some famous person

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): that's a great observation Bejiita

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): do we think that we can someday abandon money?

[[13:35] Bejiita Imako: i mean everyone nags about road repair ect "but there is no money to do it"

[13:35] herman Bergson: I dont think so Velvet.....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: well it needs to be done anyway

[13:35] herman Bergson: At least not in our lifetime :-)

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: stuff like that

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): me neither, Herman

[13:35] herman Bergson: We live in a money economy.....

[13:35] druth Vlodovic: money is just a manifestation of incentive and power really

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Anyway, my belief is that there is no 'long term' for mankind

[13:36] druth Vlodovic: a convenience

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): nods at druth

[13:36] herman Bergson: just study on those so called DERIVATIVES….which cause so much damage and disaster in the financial world....

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): James Lovelock was on the radio this morning

[13:37] druth Vlodovic: actually, an alternative method is "social capital" which used to be based on family and friendships, you could trade on that

[13:37] herman Bergson: Just try to understand what derivates are and it gives you the shivers

[13:38] druth Vlodovic: but they have a way of basing it on your facebook and twitter post volume now that is donwright scary, because it can be easily gamed by those why don't believein the concept

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Do you mean Derivatives?

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: I agree that derivatives should be banned

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): what are derivatives?

[13:39] herman Bergson: creepy mathematical things Velvet

[13:39] Fred123 Aiten: derivatives are combining several isolated instruments into a new instrument that can be traded

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:39] herman Bergson: they are kind of value objects.....

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can't find it in my translator

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, derive from something else

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I get you Fred

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: like that

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): I studied math, I know what a derivative is mathematically

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): but financially, not so much

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): A bit like those mortgage packages that caused the bank cirsis

[13:40] herman Bergson: something like....as a bank you have mortgages.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: they involve a certain risk that you wont get your money as abank...

[13:40] herman Bergson: then you sell those mortgages to someone else who likes to take that risk....

[13:41] herman Bergson: something like that

[13:41] herman Bergson: they have all kinds of fancy names...

[13:41] herman Bergson: SWAPS , SWAP OPTIONS..and so on...

[13:41] Fred123 Aiten: isn't that called hedging?

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): ahhh those are called toxic

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah its a bit vague to me but its all I need to know

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): toxic loans

[13:42] herman Bergson: YEs for as much as I understand…hedgefunds are the biggest bandits in this world of derivatives

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: lot of terms made so no one will understand what they are and thyse make misstakes and loose money to the winning of the bank

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: i don't get half of the financial mumbo jumbo that you have to know to do this and that

[13:43] herman Bergson: One of toy gave a a URL to some webpage that explained on what mathematical formulas all these things were based....

[13:43] herman Bergson: invented in the 60s if I am not mistaken....

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): would it be off-topic to ask about inflation in South America?

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: the best is, put your money under the matras, the risk of loosing it is lower

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): what money?

[13:44] herman Bergson: the thing is that the math is correct, but that people used it to take much higher risks than was justified by the financial math

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: any money

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hahaha

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): When I went to buy a house, I was stunned at the amount I was approved for

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): I could never have afforded that

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well Thomas More gave us an idea…Marx tried it out...and it didn't work :-(

[13:45] herman Bergson: so now we are still in this capitalist madhouse ^_^

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and now we are on a sinking ship basically

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: more was a wise man but he ended tragical

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well Lizzy.....that is questionable....

[13:46] herman Bergson: in the first place...

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): nothing wrong with being capitalist, as long as there are checks and balances

[13:46] herman Bergson: as politician he was a fierce defender of private property to begin with

[13:46] druth Vlodovic: the problem with communism is really the same problem we have with capitalism isn't it? a few people taking over and gaming the system for personal advantage without regard for others

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): Nods at Druth again. I agree!

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: Righ Druth...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ysing others for yourself

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: using

[13:47] herman Bergson: In fact what More already observed....

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I still cannot understand why communism is always associated with totalitarianism

[13:47] herman Bergson: that a few get everything and the masses almost nothing

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Even the british labour party were repressive

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:47] herman Bergson: there only can be one reason Merlin.....

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes?

[13:48] herman Bergson: You really have to keep the people under control, otherwise greed will take over the orginasation :-)

[13:48] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Moore was at least honest and a man of principles

[13:48] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): and gave his life for them

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: but who controles?

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes..that is why he was beheaded Annie

[13:48] herman Bergson: The greedy few at the top Lizzy ^_^

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): Holy schike

[13:49] herman Bergson: Like in Animal farm

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh Moore was beheaded?

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): schnike. Who beheaded him and why?

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sir Walter Raleigh was executed too

[13:49] herman Bergson: All animals are equal but some animals are more equal

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): One day a hero next day a vilain

[13:50] herman Bergson: Henry VIII did Velvet, because More didn't want to recognize him as hea dof the Church....More stuck to the Pope in Rome

[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): ahhhh right. Because Henry wanted a new wife.

[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I do not know how historically accurate it was; but I would recommend watching "A man for all seasons" about Moore.

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's like they sayd in earlier days..the priests said I keep them dom..and the Director of the Factory director said I keep them poor

[13:51] herman Bergson: Right Velvet ^_^

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That's my ancestor you are talking about

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Henry VIII

[13:51] herman Bergson: dom = ignorant

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Probably hehe

[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): The guy was a pioneer, Merlin

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Velvet you have to admit it

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...before we start a revolution, I think I'd better thank you for your participation again ^_^

[13:52] Velvet (velvet.braham): revolution!

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Don't forget, the RL cops can read the blog

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: thank you herman

[13:53] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you, comrade Herman!

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: i don't want to end on a guillotine, lol

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i wish they did Merlin

[13:53] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...sometimes I am aware of the fact that the pages have been read already more than 18.000 times by people all over the world

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:53] herman Bergson: Just look at the map on the wall...

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: anither interesting time

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you Bejiita

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Ik word er niet vrolijker van...

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon again

[13:54] herman Bergson: You never know....but maybe somewhere our discussion lights a spark somewhere ......

[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye All

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: time for me to go start a revolution now

[13:54] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody!

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: cu next time

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): revolution!!!

[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Goodbye everyone

[13:55] herman Bergson: YEAHH!!!!

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hugs all

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): see you all on Thursday. I expect revolution reports.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ill do my best

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Velvet

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): smiles!

[13:55] herman Bergson: ok Velvet....

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): night all

[13:55] herman Bergson: By Velvet