481: The Yi Ching continued

Let's have a closer look at the Yi Ching today. Behind me you see the table of the 8 trigrams or "Kwa". Apart form some legends there is nothing known about their real origin, but they seem to date back to 3322 BCE.

The ancient kwa-philosophy, as we  may call the system of comprehending things as permutations of the two principles Yang and Yin, plays an important role in the thoughts of the Chinese people.

With its help the origin of the world is explained, rules of conduct are laid down and a forecast of the future is made. 

As to the original meaning of the kwa-philosophy, we have positive evidence of its mathematical character, not only in various suggestions of Chinese traditions, but also and mainly in the nature of the kwa themselves. 

This is a remarkable feature of the Yi Ching, because contrary to, for instance Pythagoras, who associated metaphysical meanings to numbers, the Chinese thinkers didn't do anything with the mathematical depth of the Yi Ching.

The oldest mention of the Book of Permutations is made in the official records of the Chou dynasty, which succeeded the Yin dynasty in 1122 B.C.

One version of the Yi Ching is ascribed to Wen Wang, 1231-1135 BCE.), and his son Cheu Kung (1169-1116 BCE.), while the rest belong to later periods, containing expositions ascribed to Confucius.

In the Yi Ching we find the eight trigrammatic kwa combined into groups of hexagrammatic kwa, resulting in eight times eight or sixty-four permutations, every one of which has its peculiar name and significance.

An explanatory text is added to the sixty-four permutations of the kwa hexagrams, consisting of seven lines. 

The first line, written by Wen Wang,  applies to the hexagram as a whole, and the remaining six, written by Cheu Kung, have reference to the six sundry lines of the hexagram, counting the lowest line as the first and the topmost as the sixth.

The full lines represent yang, Kiu, which means 'nine' and the broken lines represent Yin, Luh, which means "six". In some translations they are referred toas SIX and NINE.

And here we run into one of the many enigmas of the Yi Ching. There is no explanation for the fact that the Yi Ching only uses 64 hexagrams.

One of the arrangements of the hexagrams that are met within all the larger editions of the Yi Ching, consists, as can be seen in the diagram behind me, of a square surrounded by a circle. I displayed this diagram behind me.

In the square the sixty-four permutations of the hexagrams are arranged in the order of what  may be called their natural succession, 

that is to say, on substituting for broken lines zero (o), and for full lines the figure " 1," we can read the hexagrams as a series of numbers from o to 63,., written in the binary system.

Just read the top-left one, six broken lines, so "000000", then next reading from top to bottom "000001", then "000010" and "000011", which is in our decimal system 0, 1, 2, 3. A binary system!

There is another arrangement of the hexagrams. This one is ascribed to Wen Wang, who I mentioned before. The mathematical order is lost, but a new meaning is added: the idea that the one hexagram changes into its counterpart.

Beginning from the right on the bottom line the design exhibits in the even columns the inverse arrangement of the kwa of the odd columns, with this exception, that whenever an inversion would show the same figure, all the Yang lines are replaced by Yin lines, and vice versa.

It stays a mystery to me, why the Chinese philosophy stayed focused on these combinations of lines and their interpretation for centuries.

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

An Introduction to Chinese Philosophy - Karyn L. Lai, Oxford 2008

Chinese Philosophy, P. Carus, 1902

A Brief History of chinese Philosophy. D.T. Suzuki, 1914

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you :-))

[13:20] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:21] Qwark Allen: ,aybe a exemple of someone that traveled back in time

[13:21] Gemma Allen: amazing

[13:21] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:21] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:21] Qwark Allen: indeed

[13:21] Debbie DJ: The concept of the code was way before its time...

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: haha yes maybe they are from the future and made a time machine

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie.....these bars....why these bars....

[13:22] Debbie DJ: This is a number system in its own right.

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: indeed i mean this must be 1000s of years before even the jaquard loom, the worlds first machine using binary codes

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: the predecessor to all computers

[13:22] herman Bergson: ok...ful and broken ..Yin and Yang...

[13:22] herman Bergson: Well let me astonish you...

[13:23] herman Bergson: Next time I"ll tell you that Leibniz himself knew the Yi Ching....

[13:23] Debbie DJ: its just used as 0 and 1 though - the base 2 system. The yin and Yan

[13:23] herman Bergson: That was around 1700!

[13:23] herman Bergson: Brought to Europe by the jesuits

[13:23] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:24] Debbie DJ: the table is confusing - only 8 conditions are coded

[13:24] herman Bergson: From our perspective the Yi Ching is not really philosophy...

[13:24] herman Bergson: tho the texts are on ethics and social ideas

[13:24] herman Bergson: But just imagine....

[13:25] herman Bergson: when you look at the table in front of you....

[13:25] Merlin: I find it difficult to know which things are original and which have been added later

[13:25] herman Bergson: the period named "Renaissance"...

[13:26] herman Bergson: for almost a millennium the Chinese thinkers did nothing else than commenting and interpreting the Yi Ching...

[13:26] herman Bergson: Around 1650 in Europe evolved the scientific mind and method....

[13:26] Debbie DJ: That begs the question - where did it come from?

[13:26] herman Bergson: That never happened in china

[13:27] Merlin: Which millennium do you mean Herman?

[13:27] Merlin: I am thinking about the burning of the books

[13:27] herman Bergson: from 960 to 1900 Merlin

[13:27] Merlin: oh, recently then ... OK

[13:28] herman Bergson: What I try to do here is to understand Chinese philosophy....

[13:28] Gemma Allen: it is definitely different

[13:28] herman Bergson: and it fills me with amazement....

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Gemma....that might even be an understatement

[13:28] Gemma Allen: it takes a whole different way of trying to think about it

[13:28] herman Bergson: But there may be some clue....

[13:29] herman Bergson: philosophy is not something that floats around in thin air through the ages....

[13:29] herman Bergson: it is part of society....

[13:29] herman Bergson: so maybe there is an explanation for the differences from a social historical perspective

[13:30] Debbie DJ: The universe is a very random event from our perspective. Re-arranging molecules, or living harmoniously are only aspects of civilization.

[13:30] herman Bergson: the extreme conservatism of the Chinese....for instance

[13:30] herman Bergson: That is the point Debbie....the randomness.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: but yet too..the differences where it leads to

[13:31] Debbie DJ: I think of us as a collection of bugs spinning wildly in a backwater of space ;)

[13:31] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:31] herman Bergson: If evolution is just a random process.....could we say ..scientifically Europe happened to struck gold while China stayed asleep?

[13:31] herman Bergson: and then I am talking about 1600 -1800 period

[13:31] Debbie DJ: Is it gold? we face resource depletion, and cancer?

[13:32] AbinoamAbinoam nods

[13:32] herman Bergson: Wait Debbie.....

[13:32] Debbie DJ: ;)

[13:32] herman Bergson: Here we must be accurate....

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: and many positive things too debbie

[13:32] Merlin: I dont think Cancer is because of modernity, it is evident because we live longer

[13:32] herman Bergson: I am NOT talking about economics....Did that three projects long already :-)

[13:32] Abinoam: Western epistemology may be all wrong, anyway. Who's to say the West has been awake?

[13:33] herman Bergson: I talk about the increase of human knowledge about his reality

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well Abinoam....

[13:33] herman Bergson: the answer could be...

[13:33] Debbie DJ: There I must concur herman

[13:33] herman Bergson: if survival of the fittest is the rule...

[13:34] herman Bergson: then the one who developed a cure and medicine for many diseases is the fittest....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] herman Bergson: which is the result if the increase of human knowledge about his world

[13:34] herman Bergson: which is the result of our epistemological approach of reality

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Survivial in the LONG TERM.... dinosaurs did 600 million years. Were 100000 years old only

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: interesting thought, Herman

[13:35] herman Bergson: The Dinos died because of major natural disasters....we can easily too...

[13:35] Gemma Allen: true

[13:35] Debbie DJ: and we've burned half the fuel already...

[13:35] Abinoam: China had paper, silk and gunpowder long before Europe. And Chinese traditional medicine is said to be doing wonders. I'm not sure there's evidence Europe is the fittest compared to other civilizations.

[13:35] Qwark Allen: ehehehe, or maybe not

[13:36] Abinoam: It's just... different, I guess.

[13:36] Gemma Allen: in their own way of thinking they have accomplished a lot

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ÿes so true

[13:36] herman Bergson: there is no problem in accepting that others are in some respect equally fit, Abinoam....

[13:36] Gemma Allen: the great wall is an example

[13:36] Gemma Allen: an amazing feat

[13:36] herman Bergson: we don't own all wisdom in this world...

[13:36] Debbie DJ: Philosophically speaking - there is no one correct way of behaving as a society

[13:37] AbinoamAbinoam nods

[13:37] herman Bergson: but the knowledge we have developed isn't bad

[13:37] Abinoam: I agree with that, yes.

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well Debbie....

[13:37] herman Bergson: we discussed that before....

[13:37] herman Bergson: when I pointed at societies that never use violence, never go at war...

[13:38] Debbie DJ: well, remind me?

[13:38] Debbie DJ: yes.

[13:38] herman Bergson: I'd say that such societies are preferable to all humans

[13:38] Debbie DJ: so - is our method - scientific analysis - able to ensure a good life sustainebly?

[13:39] herman Bergson: that is an interesting question.....

[13:39] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:39] Debbie DJ: It keeps me awake...

[13:39] herman Bergson: I don't think the solution will come from science...

[13:39] herman Bergson: unless you mean we all need to use valium :-)

[13:40] Gemma Allen: not strong enough

[13:40] herman Bergson smiles

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:40] Debbie DJ: hah hah. I hope that eastern philosophy may shed some light on balance, not hectic consumerism.

[13:40] .: Beertje :.: to begin with it will do ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: The solution must come from how we use our brain, I think...

[[13:41] herman Bergson: A better understanding of the dynamics of that machine

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:41] herman Bergson: or to put it in an historical perspective...

[13:41] herman Bergson: Aristotle already knew....

[13:41] herman Bergson: virtue....

[13:41] herman Bergson: we should learn and focus on our virtues :-)

[13:42] Abinoam: yes!

[13:42] herman Bergson: justice, honesty and so on

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: indeed we need more of that

[13:42] herman Bergson: this means ...global education....

[13:42] Debbie DJ: Fairness, a principle of sharing things...

[13:43] herman Bergson: A lot of sh•t in this world is the result of lack of education....

[13:43] herman Bergson: exactly Debbie

[13:43] herman Bergson: Like in the Middel Ages....

[13:43] Debbie DJ: lack of, and mis - education ;)

[13:43] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:43] Gemma Allen: it still is

[13:43] herman Bergson: the illiterate masses were easily aroused to burn a witch or going on  a crusade...

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: education is important indeed so that people really know how things really are and work

[13:44] herman Bergson: But not education to get a job to earn as much money as you can...

[13:44] herman Bergson: not that kind of education

[13:44] Debbie DJ: A major source of current mis-education is irresponsible commercial advertising.

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes Debbie....consumerism...

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:45] Debbie DJ: So, as consumers of education - we do need to beware ;)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Education to learn to see the Beauty and the Good in life

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: making us buy lot of stuff as soon new things come out even we have already working things of same type

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: or other stuff we really don't need at all

[13:45] herman Bergson: But...people...this is far away from our subject...:-)

[13:45] Debbie DJ: exactly Bejiita

[13:46] herman Bergson: Chinese philosophy

[13:46] herman Bergson: Point is...those Chinese were very well educated...at least the leading class

[13:46] Qwark Allen: eheheh they are the new consumers now

[13:46] Debbie DJ: It is interesting to compare though...

[13:46] herman Bergson: just like in Europe

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: of course only the leading class

[13:46] herman Bergson: Looking at the meaning of the Yi Ching for them.....

[13:47] Debbie DJ: That was true in Europe - only the leading class.

[13:47] herman Bergson: one way or another it didn't ignite the flame of Enlightenment like happened in Europe

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Maybe they were too relaxed?

[13:47] Debbie DJ: life was too good.

[13:48] Gemma Allen: or the opposite too hard

[13:48] herman Bergson: I really would read about an explanation for that Debbie...

[13:48] herman Bergson: for yes they had gunpowder..

[13:48] herman Bergson: and yes they used it for firearms...

[13:48] herman Bergson: they were not stupid....

[13:48] Abinoam: Did they have anything comparable to witch hunts and that sort of madness? Maybe they didn't need the sort of enlightenment Europe did?

[13:49] Debbie DJ: what would be interesting is to compare the european dark ages to what china was doing ...

[13:49] Abinoam: Yes

[13:49] herman Bergson: I dont know Abinoam....but witches....interesting...maybe we'll find something like that in literature....

[13:49] herman Bergson: but I doubt it...

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: we have to confess that european culture and education is still an example in the world today

[13:50] herman Bergson: There is no need for any Enlightenment.....but where it happened in this world, it had major consequences :-)

[13:51] Debbie DJ: the time scale issue is one that is hard to grasp.

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well Lizzy....

[13:51] herman Bergson: the basic ideas that everyone should be able to read and write and learn other languages...yes I agree with you

[13:52] herman Bergson: and based on what one reads learn to shape a personal opinion about things as phase 2

[13:52] herman Bergson: and have the freedom of that opinion...!

[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: true

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:52] Debbie DJ: The western freedoms are indeed great.

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: :

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] AbinoamAbinoam nods

[13:53] Debbie DJ: But there is much to still learn.

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well... along way to go still....

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: that doesn't mean that the western way is the best for the whole world and all cultures

[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again....

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:53] Debbie DJ:  :*★*:. .:*☆*:. .:* APPLAUSE!!! *:. .:*☆*:. .:*★*:.

[13:53] Debbie DJ:    ***APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***

[13:53] Debbie DJ:                      ¸. ★*´¨)     F*ckn Awesome!

[13:53] Debbie DJ:             ¸. ★´ ¸. ★*´¨) ¸. ★*´) ¸. ★*¨) ¸. ★*¨)

[13:53] Debbie DJ:             (¸. ★´ *(¸. ★´ *(¸. ★´ *(¸. ★´ *(¸.. ★

[13:53] Debbie DJ:    Applause!☆ «´·.¸¸.•.¸¸ YAY¸¸.•.¸¸.·`» Applause!

[[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: thank you!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:53] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman

[13:54] Gemma Allen: see you next week

[13:54] herman Bergson: behind me those three doors...

[13:54] Debbie DJ: thanks herman ;)

480: Yi Ching continued

A question, which now and then surfaces in my mind is: "What will be the future of The Philosophy Class?" Who can tell? There is only one answer: the Yi Ching. So I consulted it.

The result was a so called hexagram. I used coins as divination method. How that works isn't relevant at this moment. The outcome was:

                                        ____   ____

                                        ____   ____

                                        ____   ____

                                        ____   ____

                                        _________

                                        ____   ____

The name of this hexagram is Sze, The Army. Symbolic of: the mass of humanity. 

Sze indicates how, in the case which it supposes, with firmness and correctness, and a leader of age and experience, there will be good fortune and no error.

The JUDGEMENT tells you in which circumstance this sign is favourable or not. And it is: The army needs perseverance And a strong man. Good fortune without blame.

The IMAGE describes the powers of the two trigrams that depict your circumstance. And it says: In the middle of the earth is water: The image of the Army.Thus the superior man increases his masses by generosity toward the people.

Besides that every line gets an interpretation, where line one is the bottom line. The meaning of line 2 is: 

"The second line, undivided, shows  the leader  in the midst of the host. There will be good fortune and no error. The king has thrice conveyed to him the orders of his favour."

I don't know how you read this, but I read that through my perseverance and generosity to the people the class will flourish and prosper. Thus according to old Chinese wisdom.

The Yi Ching is old. The original name was Yi  or Zhouyi. During the Han Dynasty (206 BCE - 220 CE) Ching was added to the name. From that time until the Confucian classics Yi is often translated with "change".

The oldest manuscript that has been found, albeit incomplete, dates back to the Warring States Period (475–221 BCE).

During the Warring States Period, the text was re-interpreted as a system of cosmology and philosophy that subsequently became intrinsic to Chinese culture. 

It centered on the ideas of the dynamic balance of opposites, the evolution of events as a process, and acceptance of the inevitability of change.

The subject-matter of the text may be briefly represented as consisting of sixty-four short essays, enigmatically and symbolically expressed, 

on important themes, mostly of a moral, social, and political character, and based on the same number of lineal figures, each made up of six lines, some of which are whole and the others divided.

The ancient Chinese were distinguished by a mathematical turn of mind. For, while the literature of all other nations begins with religious hymns and mythological lore of some kind, the oldest documents of the Chinese exhibit arithmetical devices.

Traditionally, the creation of the Yi Ching is attributed to the mythical emperor Fu Xi. (3322 BCE) He would supernaturally have obtained the  knowledge of the eight trigrams when he saw how water was dripping from the shell of a turtle.

And here we learn of the famous concepts of Yin and Yang. Yang means "bright," and Yin "dark." Yang is the principle of heaven, Yin is the principle of earth. 

Yang is the sun, Yin is the moon. Yang is, as we should say, positive; Yin is negative. Yang is, as the Chinese say, masculine and active. 

Yin is feminine and passive. The former is motion, the latter is rest. Yang is strong, rigid, lordlike; Yin is mild, pliable, submissive, wifelike. 

Yang was originally represented by a small, bright circle (o), Yin by a small, dark circle (•), but in their combinations these symbols were replaced by full and broken lines, " __  __"and "_____".

A group of three elementary lines is called "Kwa". Behind me you see a diagram of the 8 trigrams and their meanings.

All the things in the world,  man included, are thought to be

compounds of Yang and Yin elements. In this way the Chinese philosophy has become a theory of permutation, and the origin of all things is traced to a change in the combinations of Yang and Yin.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you..:-))

[13:21] Gemma Allen: interesting

[13:21] Loo Zeta-Ah: thanks

[13:21] Sigmund Oppenbaum: So, Chinese Philosophy is based on a binary system?

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you!

[13:22] Gemma Allen: the idea of the mathematical beginning

[13:22] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours ^_^

[13:22] Anne Tee Chu: great

[13:22] Gemma Allen: as the root of the philosophy

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...surprised me too

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: interesting

[13:23] .: Beertje :.: what a difference with our philosophy

[13:23] herman Bergson: But I was very pleased with my fortune as predicted by the Yi Ching :-)

[13:23] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:23] Loo Zeta-Ah: :)

[13:24] herman Bergson: Sze tells me that if I lead my army well all will be well :-)

[13:24] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:24] Anne Tee Chu: Isn't the I Ching more a religion as an philosophical way of life?

[13:24] .: Beertje :.: lucky you:)

[13:24] Gemma Allen: and i is military also

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Anne....

[13:24] Gemma Allen: in structure

[13:24] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Does Sze know you are trying to lead Western army into battle with Chinese Philosophy?

[13:24] Sigmund Oppenbaum: :-)

[13:25] herman Bergson: the "problem" with this project is that it is about Non Western Philosophy....

[13:25] Anne Tee Chu: okeee I understand^^

[13:25] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:25] herman Bergson: but where we make a sharp distinction between theology and philosophy....

[13:25] Gemma Allen: different for sure

[13:25] Loo Zeta-Ah: yes all that we hold 'true' is not

[13:25] herman Bergson: Chinese philosophy doesn't.

[13:26] Anne Tee Chu: I think the same. Is it possible to make difference between these things?

[13:26] herman Bergson: but it would be too arrogant to just dismiss all Now Western Philosophy as plain theology

[13:26] Loo Zeta-Ah: It is a form of interpretation...?

[13:26] Anne Tee Chu: religion and philosophy

[13:26] Anne Tee Chu: also in the western land

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Loo...

[13:26] herman Bergson: it is an interpretation of reality....

[13:26] Anne Tee Chu: it also is....

[13:27] Anne Tee Chu: always

[13:27] Anne Tee Chu: i mean

[13:27] herman Bergson: and the Chinese did it completely different ...

[13:27] herman Bergson: For us it is hard to understand...

[13:28] herman Bergson: But on the other hand...this philosophy..this Yi Ching dominated Chinese thinking for centuries...up to now even

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: it is a bit difference for sure

[13:28] Gemma Allen: well if we call it a good and the yin yang

[13:28] Gemma Allen: ”°º× Ⓔ√ιℓ ׺°”

[13:28] Loo Zeta-Ah: I have Monty Python going through my head... 'and now for something completely different'

[13:28] Gemma Allen: I sorry..

[13:28] Gemma Allen: oops I'm Sorry!

[13:28] Anne Tee Chu: I guess Chinese do not change thinking so often as we do^^

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:29] herman Bergson: well..one thing about the Yi Ching makes even sense for us....

[13:29] Loo Zeta-Ah: It is about balance

[13:29] Gemma Allen: that makes sense tho ... good and evil. dark and light

[13:29] Anne Tee Chu: and i do not know if changing fast is good for us

[13:29] Gemma Allen: as in the western philosophy

[13:29] herman Bergson: It was not just a divination tool in the sense that it would predict the future...

[13:29] herman Bergson: it was a counseling tool ...

[13:29] herman Bergson: You have a problem....

[13:29] herman Bergson: you ponder about it...

[13:30] herman Bergson: gather your ideas and conclusions...

[13:30] herman Bergson: then...you consult the Yi Ching...

[13:30] Gemma Allen: ”°º× Ⓔ√ιℓ ׺°”

[13:30] Gemma Allen: i like the yin yang because it is blended together into one light and dark good and

[13:30] Anne Tee Chu: like tarot

[13:30] Gemma Allen: oh gosh

[13:30] Gemma Allen: i am wearing a nice one

[13:30] herman Bergson: The texts are so enigmatic....

[13:30] Loo Zeta-Ah: yes I was thinking tarot

[13:30] herman Bergson: you study them...

[13:31] herman Bergson: the result may be that it brings you new ideas....makes you change your mind...

[13:31] Loo Zeta-Ah: pack of cards randomly mixed you use them to interpret

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:31] Gemma Allen: qwark. is a reader of tarot

[13:31] Anne Tee Chu: yes just symbols to meditate over you can say

[13:31] herman Bergson: People do it with the bible too....

[13:31] Gemma Allen: if you ever want it read

[13:31] Anne Tee Chu: q is a tarot reader???

[13:31] Anne Tee Chu: cool

[13:31] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:31] Gemma Allen: he is

[13:31] herman Bergson: You ponder about a problem

[13:31] Anne Tee Chu: did not know that

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: cool

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: wow cool Gemma

[13:32] Gemma Allen: he has a set in sl also

[13:32] Anne Tee Chu: we should book a session with him^^

[13:32] herman Bergson: you pick up the bible and open it at a random page and point at a verse...

[13:32] Gemma Allen: you could

[13:32] Gemma Allen: he has done it

[13:32] Anne Tee Chu: good to know

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: tarot is interesting

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah: Well I don't I read scripture in context

[13:33] herman Bergson: No no...you just read the verse.....and try to combine it or relate it to the problem you are pondering about....

[13:33] Sigmund Oppenbaum: My concern would be that Tarot and random scripture leave little room for objective contemplation

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah: well you can :)

[13:34] herman Bergson: Objective contemplation......

[13:34] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Well, I don't know about scripture, it is much more varied than Tarot

[13:34] herman Bergson: What should that be Sigmund?

[13:34] Gemma Allen: well there are many more books in the scripture

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: it seems to be a more associative way of thinking

[13:34] herman Bergson: I mean..where does the objectivity come from?

[13:35] Anne Tee Chu: yes lizzy

[13:35] Gemma Allen: it is more subjective

[13:35] Gemma Allen: tarot is

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes it is Lizzy...

[13:35] Anne Tee Chu: do we have objective?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:35] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Well, Professor, I would say that objective contemplation would be the ability to think precisely without the aid of any superstitious means

[13:35] Loo Zeta-Ah: and have to be placed in historical context.... like this.... where did it come from?

[13:35] herman Bergson: doesn't matter what you read or see...a verse or a tarot card.....it leads to rethinking your situation...with new (strange) input

[13:35] Gemma Allen: but that seems to be subjective tho

[13:36] Anne Tee Chu: why strange input?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Clear Sigmund....ok!

[13:36] Gemma Allen: when you contemplate you almost always become subjective

[13:36] Anne Tee Chu: i guess its what your mind tells you

[13:36] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Indeed, but is said input necessarily helpful when faced with a complicated problem?

[13:36] herman Bergson: I already thought you meant that.....

[13:36] Gemma Allen: that is what i mean

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: normally i would say that real objectivity is impossible

[13:36] Gemma Allen: exactly

[13:37] Anne Tee Chu: your subconscious mind

[13:37] herman Bergson: Ok...let's get back to the brain.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: how does it operate...

[13:37] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Perfect objectivity is an ideal, I would say

[13:37] herman Bergson: we have two systems....

[13:38] herman Bergson: one controlled by the prefrontal cortex....and one controlled by the limbic system....to give a rough outline

[13:38] Loo Zeta-Ah: well there is autism that can give people objectivity

[13:38] herman Bergson: the first one we call rationality....the second intuition

[13:39] herman Bergson: 90% of our mental activity is intuitive....

[13:39] herman Bergson: afterwards we think it over

[13:39] herman Bergson: that is your objective contemplation Sigmund...

[13:39] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Indeed

[13:39] Anne Tee Chu: ^^

[13:40] herman Bergson: But as you know...it can get stuck in a circle...

[13:40] herman Bergson: always repeating the same arguments....

[13:40] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Uh-haa

[13:40] Gemma Allen: true why i call it more subjective

[13:40] Sigmund Oppenbaum: That is where the lucky dice comes in

[13:40] Gemma Allen: ,lol

[13:41] herman Bergson: and then such things like tarot or Yi Ching could disrupt that circle reasoning....with new input...

[13:41] Sigmund Oppenbaum: A very random one

[13:41] herman Bergson: but what I mean is only.....that it is a psychological trick...

[13:42] herman Bergson: just to make you look at the problem in another way...

[13:42] Anne Tee Chu: we often need tricks to train our brain

[13:42] Anne Tee Chu: train

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: stimulus

[13:42] Anne Tee Chu: or habits

[13:42] herman Bergson: and I think that thus the Yi Ching was used by the Chinese...

[13:42] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:42] herman Bergson: Not to predict factual things....

[13:42] Loo Zeta-Ah: Or people place blind faith in them to detriment also

[13:43] herman Bergson: but to make you think it over again with new ideas...

[13:43] Anne Tee Chu: my question is often what factual things are^^^

[13:43] Gemma Allen: very good

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: Like my prediction of the future of this class.....

[13:43] Gemma Allen: and it must work it is very old and still used

[13:43] herman Bergson: in fact it isn't a prediction at all...

[13:44] Anne Tee Chu: mhh.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: I need to lead the troops...period :-)

[13:44] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: and of course :-))

[13:44] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Could it not be argued that such thought-circles could be overcome with patient, logical deliberation instead?

[13:44] Gemma Allen: have been doing that a long time

[13:44] Loo Zeta-AhLoo Zeta-Ah gets out sword to be warrior

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well Sigmund.....yes....but then you are already in Emotional cognitive therapy :-)

[13:46] herman Bergson: Or is it called Cognitive Therapy :-)

[13:46] Gemma Allen: i think that the Chinese philosophers were doing that all these centuries sigmund

[13:46] Gemma Allen: just as the western have

[13:46] Gemma Allen: and here we are

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....they were obsessed by preventing conflicts....and stimulated social stability

[13:47] Loo Zeta-Ah: I wonder if the Chinese have the same mental health issues.... must ask Vidz

[13:47] Gemma Allen: hmmm

[13:47] Gemma Allen: interesting thought

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:47] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Tarot card reading was not ever received into mainstream Western Philosophical thinking, however

[13:47] herman Bergson: They have a different perspective on life...definitely

[13:48] Gemma Allen: no it has not

[13:48] Loo Zeta-Ah whispers: Apparently they are different, mental health is culturally dependant (Vidz Ah from RL)

[13:48] herman Bergson: Sigmund...it isn't philosophy at all neither is the Yi Ching...:-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: I never discussed the Tarot here :-)

[13:49] Anne Tee Chu: you should!

[13:49] Anne Tee Chu: ^^

[13:49] herman Bergson: But the Yo Ching is so interwoven with Chinese thinking and history....

[13:49] Gemma Allen: i don't think he considers it a philosophy

[13:49] herman Bergson: of course not Gemma :-))

[13:49] Anne Tee Chu: i think it is

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ;-)

[13:49] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Okay...

[13:49] herman Bergson: But it is fun...that I admit

[13:49] Loo Zeta-Ah: It is a way of life

[13:49] Sigmund Oppenbaum laughs

[13:50] Gemma Allen: qwak, considers it a tool i think

[13:50] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Okay, I do just want to understand :-)

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: a philosophical tool maybe

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes I could see it as a tool too Gemma....no problem with that

[13:50] herman Bergson: But the problem with fortune telling is...that ...

[13:50] Gemma Allen: he believes in the readings

[13:50] Anne Tee Chu: philosophy is also a tool

[13:50] Anne Tee Chu: to understand life

[13:51] herman Bergson: when you believe in it it makes the world 100% deterministic

[13:51] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:51] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Philosophy is surely not at tool, Anne?

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:51] herman Bergson: which leads to the problem of free will

[13:51] Anne Tee Chu: there is no free will^^

[13:51] Sigmund Oppenbaum: What is the Chinese view on free will?

[13:51] Loo Zeta-Ah: It is a tool to understand

[13:51] herman Bergson: if I can tell your fortune Gemma...what is your say in that...nothing anymore...

[13:52] herman Bergson: you are just a causal machine

[13:52] Gemma Allen: things change

[13:52] Gemma Allen: as soon as you use a tool things can change

[13:52] Anne Tee Chu: things have to change that is life

[13:52] Anne Tee Chu: also thinking has to change

[13:52] herman Bergson: I have to study on that question Sigmund :-)

[13:52] Gemma Allen: good question sigmund

[13:53] Sigmund Oppenbaum: I would be interested to know, Professor. It is a very serious Western preoccupation.

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: Mmmm culturally Chinese are submissive into the greater food

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: *good

[13:53] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Greater food?! LOL!

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hahahaha

[13:53] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:53] Gemma Allen: makes sense

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: ohh my typos tonight I am tired

[13:53] herman Bergson: Chinese restaurants Loo?

[13:53] Gemma Allen: yum

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: loves asian stuff

[13:53] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Ha ha ha ha!

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: mm yum

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: yummy

[13:53] herman Bergson: yeah....

[13:53] Loo Zeta-Ah: I love sweet and sour

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes me too...

[13:54] Loo Zeta-Ah: ying and yang in a bowl

[13:54] Gemma Allen: i am into garlic chicken

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: ordering nr 148....

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: lol

[13:54] Vadaman: hihi

[13:54] Anne Tee Chu: ah to much additives in food^^^

[13:54] herman Bergson: Well I guess then I wish you all a nice Chinese meal today :-)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: additives indeed

[13:54] herman Bergson: and thank you for your participation :-)

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: yes nr 621...

[13:54] Vadaman: Thank you so much Herman.

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: ieks

[13:54] Gemma Allen: actually had the veggies yesterday

[13:54] Gemma Allen: stir fried

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:54] Anne Tee Chu: have a lovely evening all

[13:54] Sigmund Oppenbaum: Thank you, Professor!

[13:54] Loo Zeta-Ah: thanks

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:55] Gemma Allen: hope i can make it thursday

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: great as usual

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

479: The Origine of the Yi Ching

When, in the year 221 BCE., the First Emperor (Shih Huang Ti) of the Ch'in dynasty succeeded in consolidating the small kingdoms and dukedoms of feudal China for the first time into one vast empire, 

he took the most drastic measures ever conceived by an absolute monarch to suppress the spirit of liberty which was just about to bloom. 

He would not tolerate a single thought that did not agree with his. He would not countenance scholars and thinkers who dared to assume an independent air and voice their opinions. 

He silenced all criticism by burying his critics alive, and put an end to the discord of beliefs by burning all the books and documents, that were not in sympathy with the new administration (213 BCE.). 

The effects of such radical measures were just what the Emperor desired. He suppressed all independence of thought and reduced the spirit of the nation to a comatose condition, which lasted for a millennium.

This put an end to the the Period of the Hundred Schools of Thought, or as others call it the Ante-Ch'in period, a period where philosophical thinking  was pluriform and creative.

The oldest books extant in China are the Shu Ching, the Five Books, one of which was the Yi Ching, Book of Changes. It plays a dominant role  in the history of Chinese philosophy.

Strictly speaking, the Chinese are not a speculative people like the Greeks or the Hindus. Their interests always centre in moral science, or rather in practical ethics. 

However subtle in their reasoning, and however bold in their imagination, they never lose sight of the practical and moral aspect of things. 

They refuse to be carried up to a heaven where pure ideas only exist. They prefer to be tied down in earthly relations wherever they may go. 

As you know, our Western reasoning follows the rules of logic, the values true and false. But we went further. 

We developed modal logic, in which we analyze the possible in relation to the necessary, or deontic logic, the field of logic that is concerned with obligation, permission, and related concepts.

Chinese thinking never came even close to this way of using the brain. A fascinating question is how this could happen.

The first speculative philosophy ever constructed by Chinese thinkers was a kind of dualism. It is described in the Book of Changes, the Yi Ching.

But it is not a kind of logical dualism like we know. A dualism of True and False, because this assumes an abstract concept of truth, which was not the way Chinese thinkers operate.

Their thinking is metaphorical, literary and poetic. Thence the famous concepts of Yin and Yang stand not for true and false, 

but have completely different meanings, which relate to how Chinese thinkers saw reality, the world, life.

The Yi Ching, however, is probably the most unintelligible, most enigmatic document ever found in Chinese literature.

It was mainly during the Chou Dynasty (c. 1046 - 256 BCE) that great thinkers focused on the interpretation of the Yi Ching.

It was in this aera, that two antagonistic currents of thought manifested themselves at an early date in the history of Chinese philosophy, and run throughout its entire course. 

One is represented by the "Yi Ching" and Confucius (551-479 BCE.). The other by Lao-tze.

The former advocated a dualism, and showed agnostic, positivistic, and practical tendencies; while the latter was monistic, mystical, and transcendental.

The Discussion

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)

[13:28] herman Bergson: And for your information Merlin...

[13:28] Debbie DJ: Thanks Herman.

[13:28] herman Bergson: next lecture(s) will deal with the Yi Ching in detail

[13:28] Merlin: Yes, the I Ching definitely has a practical side

[13:29] Debbie DJ: Herman does the Yi Ching pre date 221BCE?

[13:29] Merlin: Ooh, well perhaps I should come to those then

[13:29] herman Bergson: The thing is....

[13:29] herman Bergson: the original texts may date back to 2400BCE....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: old stuff then

[13:30] Debbie DJ: 4600 years old?

[13:30] Merlin: I have also noticed that traditional Chinese thinking is very different from ours

[13:30] herman Bergson: a thousand or more years later the Chinese themselves actually didn't know what the texts really meant

[13:30] herman Bergson: It certainly is Merlin

[13:30] Merlin: There was a time when all the books were burnt, and I think the I Ching survived it

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...probably that old :-)

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes that was in 221 BCE

[13:31] herman Bergson: as I just told :-)

[13:31] Merlin: In those days when books were burnt they were totally eliminated, not as it would be now, with copies everywhere

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: so lots of old history lost

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: what a shame

[13:32] herman Bergson: that indeed...but the Shu Ching survived...

[13:32] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:32] Debbie DJ: The cloud is risky for long term interpretation...

[13:32] herman Bergson: I guess that that book burning Emperor yet had some respect for those

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: its a bit same thing today when they censor the internet and prevent free speech and all about human rights and so

[13:32] Merlin: well it was more recent than I thought if only around the time of Pythagoras

[13:33] Merlin: hehehe

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes indeed...

[13:33] Merlin: Sees signs of digression creeping in

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Maybe social cohesion is more important than high technology ?

[13:34] herman Bergson: For some reason the Yi Ching was considered a kind of holy book....which not even an emperor dared to burn

[13:34] Merlin: Oh, I didnt know why

[13:34] Merlin: or had forgotten

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:35] herman Bergson: and the thing is....the book is so enigmatic that you can interpret it any way you like

[13:36] Debbie DJ: I wonder what thought processes brought it into being? Its like a sudoku puzzle in a way

[13:36] herman Bergson: So the First Emperor (Shih Huang Ti) of the Ch'in dynasty could always be pleased with a pleasing interpretation :-)

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes debbie.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: and another thing is....

[13:36] herman Bergson: it has a kind of mathematical structure with its 64 diagrams....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Pythagoras would have loved it....

[13:37] Debbie DJ: exactly

[13:37] Merlin: I have certainly noticed the translations vary a lot

[13:37] Debbie DJ: and it appeared so early?

[13:37] herman Bergson: The Chinese didn't do anything with that feature

[13:37] herman Bergson: I don't think the origins are really known Debbie

[13:38] herman Bergson: There are a number of ..sort of mythological stories about it...

[13:38] Merlin: Well I see it in common with the Tarot as being a kind of map of all possible states of being

[13:38] Debbie DJ: The Chinese used the feature to give people a guide.... random guide.

[13:38] herman Bergson: but they are not historical

[13:39] Merlin: I think the I Ching has some very good points but some of the inner reasoning is bizarre....

[13:39] Merlin: and rather like astrology

[13:39] herman Bergson: it is kind of similar like the origine of the old testament...

[13:40] Debbie DJ: Its a social device i think.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes something like that Debbie....

[13:40] Merlin: Yes I suppose they both go back about the same amount of time ... since early writing was possible I suppose

[13:40] herman Bergson: s our popular knowledge believes it is a book of divination

[13:40] Debbie DJ: When did the old testament appear?

[13:41] herman Bergson: But that is not really the case...

[13:41] herman Bergson: The Old Testament is a collection of many many old hebrew texts....

[13:41] MerlinMerlin listens

[13:42] herman Bergson: Like the Yi Ching is too....

[13:42] Merlin: Oh I thought you were going to say more about divination

[13:42] Merlin: and why the I C is not for that

[13:42] herman Bergson: The y way the Chinese saw the divination power of the Yi Ching was more as a kind of support....

[13:43] Merlin: Well you can use almost anything for divination but.....

[13:43] herman Bergson: When they took important decisions they used the Yi Ching to show whether it would turn out good or bad...

[13:43] Merlin: the good thing about the I Ching is that it is constructive

[13:44] herman Bergson: It was not really meant to predict future events

[13:44] Debbie DJ: Yes. and prompts action.

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:44] Merlin: It tells what to do in a given situation

[13:44] herman Bergson: It was a counseling device....

[13:44] Merlin: Not just tells what that situation is, like say the tarot

[13:45] herman Bergson: It tells what to do in a situation when you are already in that situation and ponder about how to act

[13:45] herman Bergson: I would say

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Thats how it was used in my youth.

[13:45] Merlin: I think it tells what to do in any situation

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Persuading people that their decisions are ok.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...next lecture(s) we'll elaborate on this subject in much more detail...

[13:46] herman Bergson: Something like that Debbie

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:46] Merlin: For example from memory. Oppression.... Stake your life on carrying out your will

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your interest..^_^

[13:47] Merlin: TY to you too Herman

[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Fascinating. I know so little about this topic.

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hmm this can be an eye opener indeed

[13:47] Merlin: well I am glad you see that a reason to be interested Deb

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon again all

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:47] Debbie DJ: bye bejita