503: Buddhist Truths

The Buddha’s teaching is primarily practical rather than theoretical in its orientation. The aim is to show persons how to overcome suffering and attain Nirvana. The purpose is not to persuade them to accept certain doctrines as such.

This practical orientation is interesting, because we see the same attitude in Confucius. He too wasn’t interested in all kinds of metaphysical ideas and considerations.

This practical approach is illustrated by a story about Buddha. Once he refused to answer a series of philosophical questions, brought up by some skeptical disciple of his.

The Buddha described someone wounded by a poison arrow who would not allow a surgeon to treat him until he knew the name and class of the man who wounded him, his height and complexion, where he lived, and so on.

For the practical purpose of healing his wound, there was no reason to answer the questions. The point of the story is that the Buddha had not declared answers to these philosophical questions because there was no practical need to do so.

Answering these questions would have been ‘unbenificial’ and would not have led ‘to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nirvana.

The teaching of the Buddha does not consist of answers to any and all philosophical questions that might occur to us. Rather, it consists of answers that are needed for a practical purpose.

And this practical purpose is focused on suffering. This focus is formulated in the Four Noble Truth I mentioned in my previous lecture:

1. There is suffering.

2. There is the origination of suffering.

3. There is the cessation of suffering.

4. There is a path to the cessation of suffering.

- original text from the Discourses of the Buddha

First Noble Truth. Now this is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; 

union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

- end text

The first noble truth, or the reality of suffering, assigns to the disciple the practice of cultivating understanding. Such understanding takes place gradually through reflection, analytical meditation, and eventually direct experience. 

What needs to be understood is the nature of suffering, and the different types of suffering and happiness within the cycle of existence.

Whether Buddhism because of this is a philosophy with a rather pessimistic idea about life, we’ll discuss later. There is something else that is nagging on my mind.

As I said in earlier lectures, you can regard philosophy as a kind of behavior, an interaction of homo sapiens with the environment.

And there I see a pattern: the idea that life is suffering. Now refrain from wanting to define suffering, stick to this general concept about existence: it is NOT fun, unless…..

What amazes me is that this attitude towards life is not unique to Buddhism. We have seen it before: this  apparent pattern. In the Stoics (300 BC) , in Christianity.

It is like this: step one is you assume that there is some ultimate desirable/good state of being, call it well being or happiness. And for some reason homo sapiens is not that state by birth.

Step two is that you assume that homo sapiens is unfortunately not born with the wisdom to attain that so much desired state and needs some guide, where these guides are still members of the species homo sapiens.

Step three is that homo sapiens needs to submit himself to all kinds of rules, practices and teachings, which, if obeyed properly, promise him the attainment of this ultimately desired state of being.

Islam is even mere serious in this respect. There the only right way of being for the individual is in worshipping Allah. “And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me.” Quran 51:56          (jinn = angel)

So performing all the prayer rituals and acting according “arkan al-Islam”  (the Pillars of Islam - Testimony, Prayer, Alms giving, Fasting and Pilgrimage) are the only way to achieve this special state.

I just wonder: WHAT is homo sapiens doing here?

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

Philosophy of the Buddha, Christopher W. Gowans (2003)

 Buddhist Ethics, Damien Keown (2005) 

From Africa to Zen, R.C. Solomon & K.M. Higgins

Encyclopedia of Buddhism, Robert E. Buswell, Jr., ed. (2004)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:21] Nectanebus: nice

[13:21] Chu Ann EastChu Ann East claps

[13:21] ἀρετή: hmm..

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: interesting thought indeed

[13:21] Ada Zaurak: ty, herman

[13:21] Nectanebus: I must mention quickly, however, that jinn is closer to "spirit" than "angel".

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks Herman!

[13:21] herman Bergson: My pleasure Ada :-)

[13:21] oola Neruda: is it only to achieve that state or reward... or is it a way to prevent the evil things that people do to each other (a beginning of law)

[13:22] oola Neruda: society as chaos

[13:22] ἀρετή: what happened to that guy in buddha's story? did he die of the poison arrow?

[13:22] herman Bergson: He did :-)

[13:22] Nectanebus: No brahmin around to help extract it, unfortunately..

[13:22] ἀρετή: he must have been a warrior

[13:23] herman Bergson: I don’t see the things you mention in your disjuctive statement as related oola

[13:24] Zanicia: Well I do

[13:24] oola Neruda: you were speaking of various religions aiming at achieving the reward

[13:24] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:24] oola Neruda: that being the purpose of following rules

[13:24] ἀρετή: psst.. does anyone have notes for the last two classes on buddhism? :)

[13:24] herman Bergson: The point is that it is claimed that we are all in some wrong state and that we have to do our best to achieve the right one

[13:24] Gemma Allen: they wiill be in the blog

[13:24] Chu Ann East: lol areyn

[13:24] Gemma Allen: just check the blog

[13:24] Zanicia: Chaos has brought man into thousands of different religions...all man made, all destructive

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes I have arete...the blog

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes and that we are evil and need to purify ourselves bu punishments ect

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: which cause suffering, not eases it

[13:25] herman Bergson: http://thephilosophyclass.blogspot.nl/

[13:25] ἀρετή: Thank you :)

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....and where does this come from????

[13:25] Zanicia: Punishments are merely going against other's rules and traditions

[13:26] Mikki Louise: the suffering is because different groups follow differing philosophies/religions

[13:26] herman Bergson: I really don't get it why homo sapiens explains his existence like this

[13:26] Zanicia: indeed

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: from these strange rules

[13:26] herman Bergson: No no....

[13:26] herman Bergson: the meant suffering is real...

[13:27] herman Bergson: real suffering as old age or disease

[13:27] oola Neruda: rules...to prevent suffering

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: i dont get either why we make up such things for ourselves instead of just live and be happy

[13:27] oola Neruda: and a reason to follow the rules... reward

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: happiness comes by itself then

[13:27] ἀρετή: maybe we can't be happy unless we've suffered first

[13:27] Zanicia: people have a need for constraint

[13:27] Mikki Louise: I understand, Herman... I'm referring to the chaos, war, etc mentioned by Zanicia

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: complicated question indeed

[13:28] herman Bergson: I agree....I don't deny the existence of suffering.....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: never thought about it in that way really

[13:28] Mikki Louise: in the end, there will either be no religion, or more likely, only one survivor

[13:28] Zanicia: and I meant there have always those people who impose on others

[13:28] herman Bergson: and what oola says is also a strong mechanism...obeying rules leads to rewards...

[13:28] Gemma Allen: this is too pessimistic

[13:28] herman Bergson: That is what Pavlov already discovered

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: for me the simple answer is a built in human thing called control and fear

[13:29] ἀρετή: the one in control must be very happy...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: i guess that can be an explanation

[13:29] Gemma Allen: I think that is what the buddha was trying to change

[13:29] Nectanebus: I think there was a part in the lecture which mentioned the diefferences in approach with Buddhism, Confucianism, and such vis-a-vis more proselytizing types...

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is what I mean Gemma ...this negativism, this pessimism about the 'condition humaine’

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: inded

[13:29] Nectanebus: but w/e

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: cause most religious leaders today are the ones that get happy but the other people below him suffers

[13:30] Gemma Allen: hmmm

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: look how they oppress their people in Iran for ex

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: do you think the pope is happy bejita?

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: i doubt it

[13:30] Gemma Allen  looks at the new pope

[13:30] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: at least the new pope seem to have something good inside his head for once sake

[13:30] Gemma Allen: he clearly sees the suffering of the human

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: he tries to change but he is clearly not happy ;)

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: i like the new pope

[13:30] oola Neruda: me too

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: yes bejita - but the man is suffering too don't you think?

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: all this power and he cannot do much

[13:31] Nectanebus: The chief of a tribe is the sacrifice thereof in many societies, let's not forget May Queens and ithyphallic societies

[13:31] Gemma Allen: i thinnk he is

[13:31] herman Bergson: And here I begin to believe that not these religious ideas are correct intheir observation but Marx was :-)

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: guess maybee he is but on the other hand he is not oppressing and controling his people like in these islamic countries

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: saudi arabia iran ect

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: explain please herman

[13:31] Zanicia: If we live to please others instead of ourselves we get rewards. If we want to always please ourselves...where is the reward in the end? All is so transient. And the Pope is a good example...he is a good man but heading the most corrupt of influences in the world.

[13:31] Chu Ann East: i guess the pope had one day in live a chance to chosse his way.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Inequality....unequal distribution of resources....

[13:32] Chu Ann East: so i guess he is now not suffering^^

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: Turkey follow islam but they don’t oppress the people with it as i see

[13:32] Chu Ann East: it was his choice.

[13:32] herman Bergson: exploiting people for person profit...

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: uses it more correctly

[13:32] Zanicia: yes

[13:32] Gemma Allen: not in his mind i think chu

[13:32] Chu Ann East: yes, in ours

[13:32] Zanicia: The Pope is also a puppet

[13:32] Chu Ann East: but we do not have a clue of his life#

[13:32] Gemma Allen: the cardinals chose him and in his mind that was god's will

[13:33] Gemma Allen: oh i dont think he is a puppet

[13:33] Chu Ann East: yes but to get there u know what u do

[13:33] Gemma Allen: at all

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: if you make people around you happy everyone will be happy

[13:33] Chu Ann East: true bejita

[13:33] Chu Ann East: and what is suffering?

[13:33] Gemma Allen: his background shows his humility in his whole life

[13:33] Chu Ann East: i guess 4 everyone different

[13:34] Zanicia: that is what makes him a good man. But the Pope heads the influence, nontheless. He is trying for change but hew will never do it

[13:34] Gemma Allen: never acted like a cardinal

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: but people instead do the opposite ad think by making everyone a lower class and suffering and take all from them they will be happy

[13:34] Chu Ann East: for a religious one not the same as 4 us

[13:34] Chu Ann East: we suffer when we do not get a burger

[13:34] Gemma Allen: lived in an apartment and cooked and cleaned for himself

[13:34] Chu Ann East: for example

[13:34] Gemma Allen: rode a bus

[13:34] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:34] Chu Ann East: ^^

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: i say we need to care more for each other and not just for ourselves

[13:35] Chu Ann East: absolutely

[13:35] Zanicia: Bravo

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: like it is in many parts of the world

[13:35] Chu Ann East: sharing is important in life

[13:35] Chu Ann East: and caring

[13:35] Chu Ann East: and not only for our families

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: where power hungry maniacs like the ayatolla and kim yong rules

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well...a nice discussion...

[13:35] Gemma Allen: true

[13:35] herman Bergson: and yes...what is suffering....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: they cause suffering for sure in this world

[13:36] herman Bergson: We'll get to that in detail in the next lecture

[13:36] ἀρετή: not for us

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: no not here maybe but for all people in where they rule

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: millions of people

[13:36] ἀρετή: that's true

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openforum/article/Meditation-transforms-roughest-San-Francisco-5136942.php

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: using religion for power

[13:36] herman Bergson: But in this world.....at least a reduction of suffering can be achieved by food, healthcare and education for every human being

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: thats a way of starting a change ,)

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: unfortunatley these leaders hold all such things back from the people

[13:37] ἀρετή: can suffering be reduced by changing the way people think?

[13:37] herman Bergson: This is not happening only because some groups have an interest in keeping people hungry and dumb...

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:37] Chu Ann East: YES aey

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: exactly

[13:37] Zanicia: That has always been the case

[13:37] herman Bergson: or even don’t care

[13:38] Chu Ann East: thinking leads our lifes

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: so they cant see the reality that their big leader is really the devil homself

[13:38] Chu Ann East: saw yesterday a very interesting documentation abot it

[13:38] Chu Ann East: butin german^^

[13:38] Nectanebus: Thinking does not always result in acting

[13:38] herman Bergson: And that is going to change ZANICIA

[13:38] herman Bergson: not inour lifetime....

[13:38] herman Bergson: but it is impossible that humans stay illiterate in the future

[[13:39] Bejiita Imako: that need to change indeed

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: people need to get knowledge

[13:39] herman Bergson: All these theories based on suffering are methods to make people feel in peace with their miserable conditions

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: what happens in the world, and how it really is

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: i guess so

[13:40] Gemma Allen: that is true too

[13:40] herman Bergson: You  know what I believe...?

[13:40] Chu Ann East: ppl need to have more faith in themselves

[13:40] Nectanebus: Interesting how it's first world countries that have rising illiteracy rates....there are a few factors to think of there I suppose. Sociodynamic as much as economical and media based.

[13:40] Chu Ann East: no herman^^

[13:40] herman Bergson: Our blog is read by ten thousands of people all over the world...

[13:40] Zanicia: spill!

[13:40] herman Bergson: every thought is a seed....!

[13:41] herman Bergson: It may take generations to bloom....

[13:41] herman Bergson: but it happened here...

[13:41] Chu Ann East: yes herman

[13:41] Chu Ann East: so so true

[13:41] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:41] Gemma Allen: several generations

[13:41] herman Bergson: took more than 300 years...since Newton for instance

[13:41] herman Bergson: around 1850 there was REAL suffering in Europe...!

[13:42] Chu Ann East: yes in the very old days

[13:42] herman Bergson: This cant return anymore....

[13:42] Chu Ann East: there were a lot of suffering

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:42] Chu Ann East: glad that i do not remember anymore^^

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes indeed Chu

[13:42] oola Neruda: sorry but with corporations (ayn rand) being people... and global warming coming on... i am not so hopeful...

[13:43] Chu Ann East: so oola do something against in your neighborhood

[13:43] Chu Ann East: e.g.

[13:43] Gemma Allen: OMG!!!

[13:43] Gemma Allen: omg

[13:43] Gemma Allen: rand

[13:43] Nectanebus: we must be the change we wish to see in the world

[13:43] oola Neruda: trust me... i have been

[13:43] Chu Ann East: thats what i think

[13:43] Zanicia: Forget 1850 it continues! What have humans done all these thousands of years to never be able to right this world?

[13:43] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:43] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:43] Gemma Allen: thought she would not be mentioned in this session

[13:43] Nectanebus: thought and action must follow as foot by foot.

[13:43] Nectanebus: else nothing happens

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:44] Chu Ann East: yes, meditation is good to form our thoughts

[13:44] herman Bergson: Ahh ZANICIA....you believe we are a virus on this globe?

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: virus i hope not

[13:44] Zanicia: yup

[13:44] oola Neruda: there is a national movement... citizens climate change lobby... and they are coordinated... but not as visible as they would like to be... but they have done many good things... like talking to representatives and senators in dc

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: and our emotions chu

[13:44] Chu Ann East: a lot ppl are a virus

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: sorry chu

[13:44] Chu Ann East: but i will be the medicine

[13:45] Chu Ann East: well i try to

[13:45] Zanicia: hehehe

[13:45] oola Neruda: public education

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:45] Chu Ann East: true oola

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:45] oola Neruda: the peole who are against it have a LOT of money...millions... and they are hard to be heard against

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes I'd love to be the McAfee myself :-)

[13:45] Chu Ann East: but its not impossible

[13:45] Chu Ann East: they r less.

[13:45] oola Neruda: the koch brothers are a good example

[13:46] Chu Ann East: most plk are wek

[13:46] Chu Ann East: and follow only

[13:46] Chu Ann East: week

[13:46] Chu Ann East: weak

[13:46] Chu Ann East: ;-)

[13:46] Zanicia: weak, dear

[13:46] Chu Ann East: i know

[13:46] Zanicia: :)

[13:46] ἀρετή: people are still suffering today...

[13:46] Chu Ann East: yes thats true

[13:46] oola Neruda: so i see suffering as something that will grow... not get better

[13:46] Chu Ann East: and so everyone can do a bit

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Arete....but not all and the  number IS decreasing....but too slow

[13:47] Chu Ann East: i "suffer"

[13:47] Nectanebus: I think the idea of ending suffering is like the idea of ending war: it's only possible on a personal level, not a societical one.

[13:47] Chu Ann East: but its not suffering 4 me

[13:47] ἀρετή: it's already too late in Syria

[13:47] Chu Ann East: i know that it helps a bit

[13:48] herman Bergson: No no Nectanebus....the idea of ending suffering makes no sense....that never canbe a goal

[13:48] Chu Ann East: yes herman,

[13:48] herman Bergson: But that is what is made us to believe....

[13:48] Chu Ann East: humans learn from suffer

[13:48] Chu Ann East: mostly

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: true chu

[13:49] herman Bergson: by all kinds of rituals and exercises you can reach some enlighted state beyond suffering, it seems

[13:49] Nectanebus: with the right guru, at least

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Chu...that is a basic principle in evolution....avoid pain and seek pleasure

[13:50] Chu Ann East: but pain is important. out brain learns better with"pain".

[13:50] Chu Ann East: or better, wehn it is hard to learn

[13:50] ἀρετή: but is the lesson the right one to learn?

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: brain sience says it learns best with pleasure enthusiasm...

[13:50] Chu Ann East: whiclesson?

[13:50] Chu Ann East: which

[13:51] oola Neruda: i gave the wrong name.. it is citizens climate lobby

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: i learn best when i think the learning is fun and interesting

[13:51] Chu Ann East: ok

[13:51] oola Neruda: as in ... not paid by some corporation...citizen

[13:51] herman Bergson: yes Ciska with dopamine and endorfines running all over the place ^_^

[13:51] Chu Ann East: but the important things in life stay better in our brains

[13:51] Chu Ann East: when it was hard

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: thats what a neurologist would say too bejiita - i guess there are different kinds of learning - social learning needs negative impulses too as it seems

[13:52] Zanicia: Zan pops another pill while the others aren't looking

[13:52] Chu Ann East: perhaps it stays longer in mind

[13:52] herman Bergson grins

[13:52] Chu Ann East: when it is had to get

[13:52] Chu Ann East: hard

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: eys like at these lectures for ex or when i try learn mastering som fun computer program like blender ect i learn really quick even it is complicated

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cause i think its interesting and fun

[13:53] Chu Ann East: ah ha

[13:53] Chu Ann East: so u learn only things u do not need really^^^

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: it would not stick good if i thought it was boring

[13:53] Chu Ann East: the important things in life are hard^^

[13:53] Zanicia: Blender? Oh lord I am still struggling with Photoshop! Does this mean I suffer?

[13:53] Chu Ann East: believe me

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i have to have motivation

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:53] Chu Ann East: ^^^#

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: photoshop is advanced as well

[13:54] herman Bergson: Well..I think it is time to end our discussion.....

[13:54] Nectanebus: Sorry, got to go, early night for us tonight

[13:54] ἀρετή: why suffer a bad photo.. just photoshop it :)

[13:54] Corronach: thanks herman.

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: use software like that to make maps to put on things i make in blender or similar software

[13:54] Nectanebus: see you all next week

[13:54] herman Bergson: when Photoshop begins to mean suffering :-)

[13:54] Corronach: goodnight all

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:54] Chu Ann East: lol herman

[13:54] Nectanebus: night

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: well this was great

[13:55] Gemma Allen: hope to be here thursday

[13:55] Zanicia: Thank you

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu then

[13:55] herman Bergson: NExt lecture we'll see how Buddha dealt with the concept of suffering

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy everyone ㋡

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: very interesting and great discussion, thinker! i am looking forward to continue to suffer! next week :-)

[13:55] Chu Ann East: yes, wa a great discussion

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: /aoo

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: η α м α ѕ т є 

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:55] ἀρετή: Thanks for all the lessons

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: Hooo!!!

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: Hoooo!

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for this lively discussion

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: I have to go too, Good night all!

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

[13:55] ἀρετή: and suffer sl greyness for some knowledge :)

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] Chu Ann East: see u on thursday

[13:55] Lizzy PleidesLizzy Pleides waves bye

[13:55] Chu Ann EastChu Ann East waves

[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy :-)

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye´s

[13:56] Chu Ann East: and spread love till thursday^^

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:56] herman Bergson: Yes Chu !!!!

502: On Buddhisme

In my previous lecture I wondered about the phenomenon, that an individual some moment in history stands up, produces some book or teachings and causes whole tribes and nations to transform it into some kind of collective religion.

Then I realized that this not only happened thousands of years ago but also recently in our history. Karl Marx achieved exactly the same. 

Maybe such teachings are always a kind of insurrection against the establishment and their ideas, which are responsible for massive social and individual injustice and inequality.

Human thought necessarily develops out of an historical context, and the thinking of the Buddha is no exception. He contested the intellectual, moral, and religious outlook of people then living in the Ganges river basin.

One important respect in which this was true concerned the fourfold division of persons into brahmins, rulers and warriors, farmers and traders, and servants. 

This rigid, hierarchical system of classification held that virtually everything important about a person – most significantly, a person’s obligations and opportunities – was determined by birth. 

For example, the brahmins were supposed to have been born with a capacity for wisdom and virtue that no members of another class could achieve no matter what they did. 

Buddha ’s teachings rejected this system. They declared that ‘anyone from the four castes’ could ‘become emancipated through special knowledge’ . 

An important aspect of the Buddha’s teaching is its universalism: it is put forth as an outlook that is true of, and has relevance for, all human beings – including us.

It was believed every human being could achieve enlightenment, because Buddha thought human nature and the universe have certain objective features we can know.

And this brings me to the second point I mentioned in the previous lecture. This kind of insurrections is about ethics and claims to be universal. Everybody should support iy.

If you might have lost all optimistic belief in homo sapiens, there appears to be always the urge to start the moral debate and search for the right path, which leads to some kind of human well being. Otherwise we now might live in a world according to Thomas Hobbes.

What is Buddha’s story? Buddhism is first and foremost a path of self-transformation that seeks the elimination of negative states (vices) and their replacement by positive or wholesome ones (virtues). This is the way one becomes a Buddha.

The ultimate foundation for Buddhist ethics is Dharma. Dharma has many meanings, but the underlying notion is of a universal law which governs both the physical and moral order of the universe.

This means, that the starting point is the belief in a specific order of the universe. A belief, we find in a number of cultures, but according to the Buddha it is also a moral order.

This concept of moral order is closely related to the ideas about karma and rebirth. But it also leads to another interesting observation.

The world depicted by modern science is often said to be morally neutral or meaningless. By contrast, the universe portrayed by the Buddha is morally ordered. 

This need not mean the Buddha’s teaching is incompatible with modern science, but it does mean the Buddha would regard the world of modern science as incomplete

insofar as this world was taken to be morally neutral, just because karma and rebirth are essential features of this world.

What is our position in this moral world? The basic teachings of Buddha regarding this are usually summarized in the Four Noble Truth:

1. There is suffering.

2. There is the origination of suffering.

3. There is the cessation of suffering.

4. There is a path to the cessation of suffering.

I’ll elaborate on these in the next lecture.

Thank you. ^_^

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

Philosophy of the Buddha, Christopher W. Gowans (2003)

 Buddhist Ethics, Damien Keown (2005) 

From Africa to Zen, R.C. Solomon & K.M. Higgins

Encyclopedia of Buddhism, Robert E. Buswell, Jr., ed. (2004)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:18] Loo Zeta-Ah: Thanks

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:18] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks....the floor is yours :-)

[13:18] Debbie dB:  ✫¸¸.·✿.¸★♥♡ღ❦º° էհɑղҟ վօմ :) °º❦ღ♡♥★¸.✿·.¸¸✫

[13:18] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:18] AJH1: Thankyou

[13:18] Dings Digital: Thank you herman

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:19] Zanicia: Yes, thank you Herman

[13:19] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman, that was brilliant again

[13:19] herman Bergson: I want to controversal today, I guess?

[13:19] Gemma Allen: not yet

[13:19] herman Bergson: there are two points here...

[13:19] herman Bergson: one is the historical context of the origins of Buddha...the motivation

[13:20] Loo Zeta-Ah: Can I question the notion that a single person dives an ideology or belief system.... like Marx would not be anywhere without Hagal, and there has to be a furtile environment for it to catch on like Thatcherism.

[13:20] Debbie dB: Herman, the rich class pave the way for their kids to stay rich in many societies - you are in or out. The moral systems are often red herrings - opiates of the poor.

[13:20] herman Bergson: and second to me the concept of Darmha...

[13:20] herman Bergson: Ok Loo.....yes that is an important point....

[13:21] herman Bergson: We tend to describe history in terms of important individuals....

[13:21] Daruma Boa: thats true

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:21] herman Bergson: but actually that is a questionable methodology

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: very

[13:21] Dar: Morality and pure mind can be 2 different things.. for instant, everything we do effects the mind the the conscience and in order to have pure mind we do good things that effects the mind in a positive way.  Sometimes having pure mind has nothing to do with morality..  Pure mind leads to enlightenment and all buddhist's goal is to achieve that, but morality only the result of trying to achieve pure mind. ... This is my understanding of buddhism.

[13:22] herman Bergson: convenient, but leaving out the whole context

[13:22] herman Bergson: ooops...

[13:22] herman Bergson: one remark....about how we do things here in class....

[13:22] herman Bergson: plz

[13:22] Dag: yeah put some order herman plz

[13:22] herman Bergson: those who are new...read the rules of engagement behind me at the right for you :-)

[13:23] Gemma Allen: it does not always work but we try

[13:23] herman Bergson: they not the Ten Commandments ...just a request :-))

[13:23] Debbie dB: Buddhism was not and is not about preserving class, or building wealth - its different to the other "moral " frameworks.

[13:23] Debbie dB: ok

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes true Debbie

[13:24] herman Bergson: Like in Buddhism greed is one of the main vices

[13:24] herman Bergson: while compassion is one of the virtues

[13:25] Gemma Allen: i don’t know many rich buddhists

[13:25] Gemma Allen: wonders if there are any

[13:25] herman Bergson: Greed is the source of accumulation material wealth...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: they maybe don’t care about wealth or materialism

[13:25] Debbie dB: awesome. In christianity, god is warlike, and protects against enemies.

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: (Jim Carrey ;) )

[13:26] herman Bergson: While sharing is a basic buddhist principle...

[13:26] Loo Zeta-Ah: Lots including Steve Jobs

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: I don't see so many parallels between Marx and religions, marx is about equity and religion is more about transcendency

[13:26] Gemma Allen: maybe he gives his riches away

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy

[13:26] Loo Zeta-AhLoo Zeta-Ah nods at Lizzy

[13:26] Debbie dB sits in lotus position ;)

[13:27] herman Bergson: but the analogy is that the historical processes look the same

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: the common thing might be the emotional bounds which work on both - marxism and religions ;)

[13:27] herman Bergson: if you leave out the content in detail

[13:27] Debbie dB: superficially - yes- all changed the status quo.

[13:27] herman Bergson: and all originated from social dissatisfaction

[13:28] Debbie dB: yes. We need a new moral leader and compass....

[13:28] Gemma Allen: but that has always been true hasn’t it

[13:28] herman Bergson: But the interpretation of what is good and bad, right and wrong...well...yes..they fundamentally differ

[13:28] Debbie dB: $$$$ are not a good religion

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:29] Loo Zeta-Ah: There has to be a hegemony

[13:29] herman Bergson: Well the remark that we need a new moral leader is interesting....

[13:29] Loo Zeta-Ah: a notion that the prevailing ideology is acceptable

[13:29] Loo Zeta-Ah: or even forced .....

[13:29] herman Bergson: yes Loo that is the binding factor...

[13:30] Debbie dB: the current ideology is about excess consumption, and faster burn.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Buddhism has been such a binding factor....

[13:30] Dag: I would like to see a distinction between ideologies and religions

[13:31] Debbie dB: Hard to separate loo

[13:31] herman Bergson: Interesting point Dag

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: yes Dag

[13:31] Gemma Allen: it is hard dag

[13:31] Debbie dB: I sorry..

[13:31] Debbie dB: I'm Sorry! gag

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:31] herman Bergson: But indeed a whole new debate....

[13:31] Loo Zeta-Ah: :)) another time Dag, give me chance and I will do it as soon as I retire RL

[13:31] herman Bergson: That's the point ^_^

[13:31] Dag: lol Zeta

[13:32] Debbie dB: The new ideology is being formed by the internet enabled community ;)

[13:32] herman Bergson: and I am already retired Loo, but now occupied with Non Western Philosophy :-))

[13:32] Gemma Allen: which goes faster and faster

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah: hehehee

[13:32] Debbie dB:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:32] Debbie dB: It involves sharing, and printing free money-

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:32] Dag: what I wanted to say is...

[13:32] Debbie dB: ((i wish))

[13:32] Dag: that religion intervenes on human consciousness

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well maybe our present ideology is Economy....Economic growth our idol...

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah: For an individual to 'share' they have to accept it will be better for them

[13:33] herman Bergson: I agree Dag....

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: untill all crashes down hard on us

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah: The Early Christian church members shared everything

[13:33] Zanicia: True

[13:33] herman Bergson: I actually said that in my previous lecture

[13:33] Debbie dB: Well, breathing is sharing at some level - we all need to - even the polluters

[13:33] Dag: am sure you did..:)

[13:34] herman Bergson: and what I said today....

[13:34] herman Bergson: it still seems to be the case that homo sapiens NEEDS the moral debate....

[13:34] Gemma Allen: and always have and will

[13:34] herman Bergson: and that is a positive thing, I would say

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: guess so

[13:35] Zanicia: It will be interesting to pick up on the suffering aspect that you left it at

[13:35] Dag: yes thats a good point herman

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:35] herman Bergson: Like they are re introducing Ethics at MBA  colleges :-)

[13:35] Debbie dB: We do. thats why i come to class, - to seek moral compass

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well Debbie....

[13:36] herman Bergson: regarding Buddhism our compass is set at "suffering"

[13:36] Debbie dB: ok - ill buy that

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: until we start to fix it ourselves ;)

[13:36] Loo Zeta-Ah: yes

[13:36] Debbie dB: and that ;)))

[13:36] herman Bergson: That basis of life is suffering  and we need to follow a path to free ourselves from it

[13:36] Loo Zeta-Ah: drive out the negative thoughts with Karma

[13:37] Debbie dB: and create only good karma

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: i guess so

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: that is the goal

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: sort of

[13:37] Loo Zeta-Ah: My bro in law is a Buddhist and I did not realize how many branches there were

[13:37] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll spend our time on understanding what we should regard as this "suffering"

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Loo....dozens of sects....

[13:38] Loo Zeta-Ah: he is into nature and eleviating earth's suffering

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:38] Zanicia: I'd like to know how you pay the bills with Karma....OR FOR SOME PEOPLE, WHERE TO FIND THE NEXT BOWL OF RICE

[13:38] Debbie dB: And when do we get to the steps to self enlightenment?

[13:38] herman Bergson: In Japan there are at least 6 different Buddhist schools

[13:38] Debbie dB: and rice?

[13:38] Gemma Allen: hope i an make it saturday and tuesday

[13:38] Zanicia: ooops sorry about the caps

[13:39] Gemma Allen: hopes you send a notice to remind us about saturday

[13:39] herman Bergson: That  bowl of rice is only found by the buddhist monks ZANICIA :-)

[13:39] Debbie dB: Loo, there should be no bills.

[13:39] herman Bergson: They get it offered from the common people

[13:39] Debbie dB: tell me about saturday please?

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: something coming up then?

[13:39] Loo Zeta-Ah: Well we could all live like Star Treckers with no money

[13:40] Gemma Allen: we wish

[13:40] Zanicia: Tell that to the staving in the rest of the world

[13:40] herman Bergson: I'd love that Loo

[13:40] Loo Zeta-Ah: or to the Lindens ;)

[13:40] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hehe yes that would be great

[13:40] Debbie dB: ¨°º©©º°¨=^ L A F F S ^=¨°º©©º°¨

[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...we are leaving the buddhist path here now :-))

[13:40] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:40] Loo Zeta-Ah: ooops sorry

[13:41] Debbie dB: yes

[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ... ^_^

[13:44] Zanicia: Thank you Herman!

[13:45] Dar: Thank you Herman, and everyone, Much metta to you all.

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to YOU herman!

[13:45] Debbie dB: Thanks to you Herman - I missed this place, and all of you.

[13:45] Draylan: Thank you Herman

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: bye debbie

[13:45] Oceane: thank you herman great class ㋡

[13:45] Dag: byebye all

[13:45] Daruma Boa: have a nice weekend all

[13:45] herman Bergson: See you all next Tuesday :-))

[13:45] Daruma Boa: bye bye

[13:45] Loo Zeta-Ah: Thanks and bye all

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: bye all ㋡

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: this was great as always

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: good night everybody

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

[13:46] herman Bergson: thank  you Bejiita

[13:46] Lizzy PleidesLizzy Pleides waves bye

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:46] Debbie dB: byeee all

[13:46] Zanicia: Bye bye

[13:46] Debbie dB: and bye prof xxx

501: Buddhist Awakening

In lecture 498 I already brought a question to your attention, which still is on my mind. It is about human behavior and Buddhism, but also Christianity.

The historical Buddha did not write down any of his teachings, they were passed down orally from generation to generation for at least three centuries. Neither did the historical Jesus or Mohammed.

Decades or even centuries later books are written, which are regarding the content attributed to these historical persons and people, whole nations or should I say “tribes” gather around these ideas and call it a belief, a religion. At least something that transcends our (biological) reality.

In China  from Buddhism the Taoists borrowed their whole scheme of temples, priests, nuns, and ritual. They drew up liturgies to resemble the Buddhist sutras , and also prayers for the dead. A process of centuries.

In Europe you see the same happen. A system of temples, which we call churches, liturgies and rituals emerge through the centuries, also assimilating aspects of pagan rituals.

Among all living creatures on this globe, the homo sapiens is the only one who displays this behavior. And I wondered….. why is this behavior conly related with three individuals of thousands of years ago?

Then I realized , that this isn’t special or unique behavior at all. Sure, it doesn’t happen every day. We are dealing here with very slow historical processes, but it has happened recently again.

That is, around 1848, Karl Marx. He wrote a book. Whole masses adopted the ideas from the book and thus built their belief. And you see the same behavior: gathering in large groups, prayers… well they call it militant songs, the building of temples, which they call a mausoleum or  the Hall of the Proletariat.

So yet it appears to be common human behavior as a consequence of having the brains, we have. We don’t observe it in other animals or you might suggest ,that all that all these peculiar mating rituals of other animals are perhaps related to our behavior.

As I told you before, I want to discuss Confucianism, Taoism and also Buddhism as a philosopher, even though  some like to call these -isms religions.

We don’t need to deny the existence of religiosity in the homo sapiens. We only have to differentiate between two layers here. On the one hand a first layer, which contains all beliefs, rituals, temples, churches etc. and which are regarded as symbols of religions

And on the other hand the second layer, which all these historical developments have in common: ethics. Whether it is Buddhism or Marxism, they both try to explain the essence of human existence, its goal and thence what is good and bad, right and wrong.

Due to the social position of a (dominating) religion in a society this ethical debate is a permanent feature of our consciousness. This makes me think of something else.

When material wealth increases like in our highly developed societies, we observe a proces of secularisation, people abandoning their religious beliefs. Not only among christians, but (at least in the Netherlands) equally among muslims. 

And it almost seems to me that, what is left as a permanent feature of consciousness today, is simple greed and craving for material wealth, in stead of the permanent ethical debate.

What is the input of Buddhism here? The story according to Jack Kornfield, an American author and teacher in the vipassana movement ( in the Buddhist tradition it means insight into the true nature of reality) in American Theravada Buddhism.

After the Buddha was enlightened he was walking down the road in a very happy state. He was supposed to have been quite a handsome prince before going off to be a monk. 

So here's this handsome prince now recently enlightened, wearing golden robes and obviously quite happy, and very special from all accounts. And he met some people and they said, 

"You seem very special. What are you, are some kind of an angel or a deva?" He seemed inhuman in some way. 

"No." 

"Well, are you some kind of a god then?" 

"No." 

"Well, then are you some kind of a wizard or magician?" "No," he replied. 

"Well, are you a man?" 

"No," he said. 

"Then what are you?" 

And he answered, "I am awake."

And in those three words --"I am awake"-- he gave the whole teaching which Buddhism contains. To be a Buddha is to be one who has awakened, awakened to the nature of life and death and the world in which we live, awakened to the body and mind. 

So the purpose of practicing meditation, the Buddhist and other traditions, is not to become a meditator, or a spiritual person, or a Buddhist, or to join something. Rather, it is to understand this capacity we have as humans to awaken.

So, if you have fallen asleep during this lecture, the next lectures on Buddhism may perhaps awaken you.

The Discussion

[13:22] Nectanebus: heheh

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you :-))

[13:22] CONNIE Eichel: :)

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:22] Nectanebus: nice

[13:22] Zanicia: hehehe

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ¨no im just meditating

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: not sleeping

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:22] Nectanebus: Almost anthropological, if truth be told ;)

[13:22] Merit Coba: Hmm.. what?

[13:22] herman Bergson: Good!

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes, Nectanebus ...seems so

[13:22] Zanicia: (politely stifles a yawn)

[13:22] Gemma Allen: i have to disagree on the idea of it being a religion... many people of all religions follow the buddhist way of life

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: inded buddhism is a bit different

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma, I agree...

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and i like how it wrks

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: maybe you can call it a religion because there are still some people who do practize it that way

[13:23] Nectanebus: The opening parts about monkeys and religion made me think of 2001, and the idea that religion acts as a moral ballast is something I have been talking about with a few friends...with nothing to take the place of divine authority, along come base desires....

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is the point Ciska....

[13:24] herman Bergson: There are temples with big statues....

[13:24] herman Bergson: incense is burned...rituals are performed

[13:24] Gemma Allen: true

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: one difference is here you don’t pray for a supernatural being but a real person

[13:24] Gemma Allen: but not worshipped

[13:25] Zanicia: that isn'y philosophy, that is conforming to and inventing tradition

[13:25] bombadail: Is the lecture part over?

[13:25] Merit Coba: it is when it is

[13:25] Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:25] Gemma Allen: yep now we can talk

[13:25] FreeWee Ling: The label is irrelevant. Religion, belief, credo, ethic.

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: i guess buddhism is something between religion and philosophy you can say

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes it is Bombadail :-)

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and i like the ideas it have

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: some folks call that spirituality Bejiita ,)

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: its trying to catch the center of it all.

[13:26] Laila Schuman: there are different kinds of Buddhism... i feel... some have no supernatural beings and some have them

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: if there is one religion id liked mostly id say its buddhism

[13:26] Laila Schuman: and that is confusing

[13:26] FreeWee Ling: What I learned from Buddha is sitting under a tree and thinking about things until you figure it out for yourself.

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: and its peaceful, no wars violence and so like in other religions

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: and no oppression of women and similar

[13:27] Nectanebus: I should say I fail to see a distinction between religious symbology and its patterns of thought, rather that they seem to be interlinked. The Jesuit Seal or Bagua Trigrams instantly spring to mind as examples of how macro/micro, or even exo-/eso-teric, can be mutually linked....

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: this religion is not to gain power over people but to see natures way

[13:27] herman Bergson: Well, the basic idea of buddhism is yet 'suffering'

[13:27] Nectanebus: Truth, Herman :)

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:27] FreeWee Ling: Suffering was Buddha's truth.

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: might be but the concept of buddhism is yet very different

[13:28] Nectanebus: Samsara is pretty much the core of the techings, along with moksha....sorry, "Nirvana" ;)

[13:28] herman Bergson: We'll elaborate on this concept in coming lectures

[13:28] FreeWee Ling: What he figured out for himself was a path for himself.

[13:28] Gemma Allen: I have mixed feeling about the original Guatama himself

[13:28] Nectanebus: I prefer Bodhidharma, but I'm biased towards people that stare at things.

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: true freewee

[13:28] herman Bergson: There is no authentic Gautama, I would say Gemma

[13:29] Gemma Allen: I mean the one who sat under the tree

[13:29] herman Bergson: Only three centuries after his historical appearance his ideas were written down

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:29] Gemma Allen: after abandoning his wife and family to go do that

[13:29] Nectanebus: The Laozi enigma again and again...

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is just a story to me...

[13:30] FreeWee Ling: He was a bit of a jerk. lol.. "I gotta be me!"

[13:30] Zanicia: hehe

[13:30] bombadail: Are you speculating a herman that humans are the only ones with a drive to organize around a moral compass...it seemed so to me...yet very clearly in experiments it has been observed that animals exhibit a very strong sense of fairness and sense of justice too...they just obviously don't have our language and brain attributes.

[13:30] Gemma Allen: WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!

[13:30] herman Bergson: About Rousseau, who wrote on education, we know that he left his wife and children indeed :-)

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: The ego trip of loosing that one ;)

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:30] Gemma Allen: my feelings freewee

[13:30] Corronach: Rousseau was the worst mysoginist around

[13:31] Corronach whispers: :)

[13:31] Dag: here we go from philosophy into psychology

[13:31] herman Bergson: I know you are refering to de Waal's experiments with the Capicin monkeys Bombadail

[13:31] Nectanebus: I disagree, Freewee, I'd recommend re-reading the Pali Canon....he found a middle path, and as far as his attitude to his family...well let's just say that things are products of their times in moralistic regards and Buddhism is an Indian base....also, asceticism has rather strong bindings...

[13:32] Gemma Allen: true

[13:33] FreeWee Ling: I was being facetious. His personal life is irrelevant. His philosophy was about pain and suffering and compassion.

[13:33] herman Bergson: I guess it is no waste of time to spend some more lectures on Buddhism...:-)

[13:33] Nectanebus: Ah, hard to see that textually, I guess.

[13:33] bombadail: what I am saying then is the desire to decipher right from wrong is not unique to humans

[13:33] FreeWee Ling: But I still contend that what he found was personal truth, not universal. Buddhism is a corruption.

[13:34] Nectanebus: I'm surprised we haven’t moved on to situational ethics already, it's not like any moral stands up to the gun to you kid test anyway unless someone's cutting their nose to spite their face.

[13:35] Nectanebus: And as far as personal versus universal goes...that's the problem of communism on paper vs reality again, I'd wager. It's work if everyone could just get along, but that's an unlikely prospect.

[13:35] herman Bergson: One correction here FreeWee...I don't think it was a personal Buddha, who generated these ideas but a cuture during three centuries of oral tradition

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: well in a way he stated that with the four reliances freewee

[13:35] Gemma Allen: that would relate back to the written about not by

[13:35] Nectanebus: I doubt ANY of the historical bigwigs existed as written, we just happen to have paper trails to the origin of the mythos. Jesus is a good example: he's there in the Roman records at around about the right time, the rest is hearsay.

[13:36] Gemma Allen: interesting

[13:36] herman Bergson: That is true Nectanebus

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: yes nectanebus

[13:36] FreeWee Ling: That's my point. Buddha himself may have had a great idea. What developed later as Buddhism was not his idea.

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: we want "heros" seem to be our nature

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: might be

[13:37] FreeWee Ling: Role models anyway.

[13:37] herman Bergson: That you cant say FreeWee....because we have no idea of what Buddha himself ever has said

[13:37] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:37] Gemma Allen: it seems

[13:38] herman Bergson: The most interesting point to me here is that such a collection of ideas get such a status in society

[13:38] Mikki Louise: How are these figureheads different from people today? Such as the leaders of the Mormon religion... why do people look at these men as con artists? Is it purely passage of time and spread of (their / interpreted) teachings?

[13:38] herman Bergson: which then are assembled under one name....Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed....

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is in line with what I wondered Mikki....

[13:39] FreeWee Ling: The problem is not so much who's right, but when they start insisting everyone else is wrong.

[13:39] Zanicia: yes

[13:39] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: maybe the basis is our need for the belief that someone knows it all - if not we ourselves - a security thing.

[13:39] herman Bergson: why did it happen to these three persons...?thousands of years ago?

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: true freewee.

[13:40] herman Bergson: If you add Marx to the debate there may be an explanation

[13:40] Nectanebus: ?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Marx 'Das Kapital' became the bible for a society in social unrest...social exploitation of people

[13:40] FreeWee Ling: Why do you single out these three? There were many others. These 3 just got a lot of Facebook followers.

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: ahahhaha

[13:41] Qwark Allen: for some reason, when you said its hapening now, i thought you were going to talk about "john frum"

[13:41] herman Bergson: That must be the explanation FreeWee :-)

[13:41] Zanicia: hahaha sweet modern girl!

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: interesting this for sure

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:41] Qwark Allen: i can imagine in 2000 years john frum will be a divinity like the other ones

[13:41] herman Bergson: Who is John Frum?

[13:42] Qwark Allen: the one from the cargo cult

[13:42] Nectanebus: As long as Dawkins isn't hailed as a hero, I'm fine.

[13:42] FreeWee Ling: Springsteen.

[13:42] herman Bergson: Doesn’t ring a bell :-)

[13:42] Mikki Louise: lol

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: ow - some folks will try Nectanebus

[13:42] Qwark Allen: we didn`t talk about the cargo cult here last year?

[13:42] Merlin: Dont worry we wont last 2000 years

[13:42] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:43] Qwark Allen: hahaah you have to look for it then

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: indeed its true that ideas get manipulated along the way before they take the final shape of a religion

[13:43] Nectanebus: I think the obligatory Nietzsche quote needs to be put out there, who's game?

[13:43] Qwark Allen: that is the most interesting example of nowadays born of a religion

[13:43] Nectanebus: oops, I mean Voltaire  

[13:43] Qwark Allen: it started back in the 2d WW

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, isn’t children of corn and wicker man based on that?

[13:43] herman Bergson: Nietzsche might do too :-)

[13:44] Nectanebus: I was thinking of If God did not exist, we would have to invent him

[13:44] Nectanebus: but Got ist Tod works as well, different trains of the same though I guess

[13:44] .: Beertje :.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

[13:44] herman Bergson: We did Nectanebus

[13:44] Nectanebus: sorry, having trouble keeping up...for once...

[13:45] Qwark Allen: when a reporter asked a cargo cult priest about their wait for the return of john frum, the priest asked back - aren`t you waiting for the return of jesus at 2000 years? well we have not waited that much then

[13:45] Nectanebus: Zing!

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ok....to save Nectanebus' brain....thank you all for your participation again....

[13:46] CONNIE Eichel: :)

[13:46] herman Bergson: in the meantime you can wait for the return of Jesus then :-)

[13:46] Zanicia: Thank YOU Proff!

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hehehehe

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: now this was great

[13:46] Gemma Allen: what is this field trip herman???

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:46] Nectanebus: thanks Mr. B

[13:46] herman Bergson: See you again on Thursday :-))

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all ㋡

[13:46] Corronach: thanks Herman

[13:46] Nectanebus: Back to the bike sheds...

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:47] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Qwark Allen donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:47] Merlin: bye Herman and every one

[13:47] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin

[13:47] Mikki Louise: Thank you Herman, good to see a full house ㋡

[13:47] CONNIE Eichel: great time, as always :)

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes were lots of people here today

[13:47] herman Bergson: Thank you CONNIE

[13:47] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:47] CONNIE Eichel smiles

[13:47] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:47] Gemma Allen: for now