565: Dualism.....

The fact that we as adults still have the inclination to treat certain inanimate objects as conscious entities appears to be a left-over of our cognitive development.

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When we were between 2 and 7 years old we talked to our teddy beer, believed Walt Disney and knew that some trees could talk.

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So, the fact that we are religiously sensitive to images, statues and idols in rituals may quite well be a by-product of the way our brain has developed and is wired.

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But there is more. In a conversation with a friend of mine we discussed who said what when and she found it. She sent me this:

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The guy was Malebranche (1638 - 1715).  Quote from the book:  "In order to account for the appearance of causal interaction between minds and bodies...

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they are like two clocks wound up by God and kept in synchronicity with each other through divine acts. Whenever I will to move my arm, God causes the arm to move on that occasion." -end quote- 

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This is a quote from “Philosophy, 100 Essential Thinkers” by Philip Stokes. The book I used for my first project.

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It is a really peculiar line of thinking, but people believed it. The cause of such ideas was the famous invention of Descartes (1598 -1650): DUALISM.

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Malebranche, but Descartes himself in the first place, had to deal with a serious problem, because on the one hand you had that inanimate object: the body.

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On the other hand you have the mind. Both made of completely different material. The body is of course real material: bones, blood, skin….and so on. You can touch it. It uses space.

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But the mind, that is another piece of cake. That could not be the same material as the body. It has to be some substance all right, because it exists. To have it in Descartes own words:

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“I knew, that I was a substance, the whole essence or nature of which is to think, and that for its existence there is no need of place or any material thing. 

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That is to say, the soul by which I am, what I am, is entirely distinct from the body.” -end quote -

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And there is our problem: how do these two, body and mind, interact? Malebranche came up with a really extraordinary solution.

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Did he really believe, that god kept himself busy with for instance, say, 8 billion blinking eyes? What else may keep him busy, I leave to your own imagination.

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Although Descartes was the philosopher, who created probably the most influential misconception in the history of philosophy, we can not blame him for that.

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Let me ask you a simple question: Where are you? You might answer…Well, obvious…here in this room.

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That is not what I mean. Yes I see your body, but where are YOU! Ohhhhh…I see….well I AM here…..

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and in many cases people point at their head, some at their chest, but nobody at their feet.

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We experience ourselves as a body and a mind. Our language is peppered with dualism. “My knee hurts, but don’t worry, I feel fine”. Just by looking in a mirror we already can say…that is my body.

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It seems, that a belief in some form of life apart from that experienced in a body, is a default setting of the human mind.

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So, apparently we are born dualists and from an evolutionary point of view this isn’t so weird at all.

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To be able to live together in a group, we have to observe what others think, what goes on in their mind. 

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Much more important than how their body acts. We even deduce from the body language how people feel and think.

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Furthermore I can have a conversation in my mind with you, while you are not present at all or I can have a conversation with my deceased mother.

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And all this based on the belief that the mind is a different entity from the body. Maybe even not subjected to the laws of nature.

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You can imagine how easy it is to hijack this natural tendency of the mind? In no time we believe that we can be talking to some god.

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And in that sense, this way of thinking can be regarded as a by-product of our natural need of empathy to make a social existence possible.

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Thank you…. the floor is yours… ^_^

The Discussion

[2015/01/29 13:14]  Daruma Boa: claps

[2015/01/29 13:14]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow..thank you Herman

[2015/01/29 13:14]  Max Chatnoir: Treat everything as if it could think because you never know.

[2015/01/29 13:15]  Max Chatnoir: When you are little.

[2015/01/29 13:15]  Max Chatnoir: Sort it out as you get older.

[2015/01/29 13:15]  herman Bergson: We will get to that too Max....

[2015/01/29 13:15]  herman Bergson: it is the pragmatic approach of belief :-)

[2015/01/29 13:15]  herman Bergson: Also called Pascal's Wager...

[2015/01/29 13:16]  herman Bergson: Well....I think I didn’t challenge you with controversial ideas today :-)

[2015/01/29 13:16]  Max Chatnoir: So how does the idea of a mind with NO body arise?

[2015/01/29 13:17]  Max Chatnoir: Which is what God would have to be.

[2015/01/29 13:17]  Max Chatnoir: Well, I guess the old gods lives some place else, like on Olympus.

[2015/01/29 13:17]  herman Bergson: In fact Descartes showed you how, Max....

[2015/01/29 13:17]  Areyn Laurasia: Artificial intelligence?

[2015/01/29 13:17]  herman Bergson: I can even doubt the fact that my body is real....

[2015/01/29 13:17]  herman Bergson: but I can not doubt that I doubt...

[2015/01/29 13:17]  Max Chatnoir: Ah, yes.

[2015/01/29 13:18]  Max Chatnoir: So my mind is real.

[2015/01/29 13:18]  herman Bergson: Even when I doubt that....:-)

[2015/01/29 13:18]  Max Chatnoir: So from that, there are other minds who may or may not be accompanied by bodies?

[2015/01/29 13:18]  herman Bergson: That led to Descartes conclusion that the mind is some kind of stand alone entity, yes

[2015/01/29 13:19]  herman Bergson: "Other minds" is a whole chapter in philosophy, Max

[2015/01/29 13:19]  herman Bergson: How can I know that you are another ind....?

[2015/01/29 13:19]  Max Chatnoir: This just never ends, does it?  :-)

[2015/01/29 13:19]  herman Bergson: Am I not imagining you?

[2015/01/29 13:19]  Max Chatnoir: It's a kind of virtual world.

[2015/01/29 13:20]  herman Bergson: Fro me it ends when you have a materialist view on reality

[2015/01/29 13:20]  herman Bergson: Most interesting in history is that materialism is always attacked by main stream philosophies and religions...

[2015/01/29 13:21]  herman Bergson: Already happened in India 600 BC

[2015/01/29 13:21]  Max Chatnoir: Well, the first philosopher in that book, Thales, talked about God being the mind of the world, so the world would be his/her body.

[2015/01/29 13:22]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): word in the form of the earth?

[2015/01/29 13:22]  herman Bergson: Yes....Spinoza went in that direction too...

[2015/01/29 13:22]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): world..

[2015/01/29 13:22]  herman Bergson: But what does it add to reality....

[2015/01/29 13:22]  Max Chatnoir: You have a sort of super animism.

[2015/01/29 13:23]  herman Bergson: The quintessential point here is a god who intervenes with our lives

[2015/01/29 13:23]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why would he do that?

[2015/01/29 13:23]  herman Bergson: that is not the point Beertje :-)

[2015/01/29 13:23]  Max Chatnoir: I was thinking about that when I was thinking about talking to my car.  I feel gratitude when the dome light turns on at night.

[2015/01/29 13:24]  Max Chatnoir: But is the gratitude to the car itself or to whoever designed the car?

[2015/01/29 13:24]  herman Bergson: The point is that a god who created this world and then went on vacation forever is rather uninteresting for a religion

[2015/01/29 13:24]  Areyn Laurasia: without our thoughts and belief.. there would be no god?

[2015/01/29 13:24]  Max Chatnoir: And whoever that was has nothing to do with me directly.

[2015/01/29 13:24]  Max Chatnoir: So my car theology is deist, not theist.

[2015/01/29 13:24]  Bejiita Imako: maybee it is because it does what its supposed to do without struggle

[2015/01/29 13:24]  Bejiita Imako: like i had with internet before

[2015/01/29 13:25]  herman Bergson: I would say yes Areyn...no god then...:-)

[2015/01/29 13:25]  Bejiita Imako: id say both the car and its designers maybe u say thnx to

[2015/01/29 13:26]  herman Bergson: After a 250km drive on highways and then safe home...I also sometimes say to my car...well done :-))

[2015/01/29 13:26]  Areyn Laurasia: ^^

[2015/01/29 13:26]  Max Chatnoir: Yes!

[2015/01/29 13:26]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): depends on what car you have...

[2015/01/29 13:26]  herman Bergson: And the funnyt hing is....

[2015/01/29 13:26]  Max Chatnoir: Or if it gets me safely home when I'm low on gas.

[2015/01/29 13:27]  Bejiita Imako: when any machine do what its supposed to do for long time and heavy work you tend to be grateful to it

[2015/01/29 13:27]  herman Bergson: I really have a feeling that it deserves the compliment and will keep him doing what he does :-)

[2015/01/29 13:27]  herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita ^_^

[2015/01/29 13:28]  Max Chatnoir: Yes, isn't that a remnant of animism?  I know the car isn't a person, but I certainly am not ever going to say anything mean to it.  It wouldn't be nice.

[2015/01/29 13:28]  herman Bergson: But to get back to Areyn's remark....no thoughts ...no god....

[2015/01/29 13:28]  herman Bergson: Interesting idea....

[2015/01/29 13:28]  Max Chatnoir: yes, that is interesting.

[2015/01/29 13:28]  herman Bergson: Ohh sure it is animism pur sang Max :-))

[2015/01/29 13:29]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[2015/01/29 13:29]  herman Bergson: But as I said before....

[2015/01/29 13:29]  Max Chatnoir: So the idea of a disengaged God is less satisfying than an engaged one.

[2015/01/29 13:30]  herman Bergson: the remark is only interesting when you believe in a god that really actively influences your life....

[2015/01/29 13:30]  herman Bergson: Like islam people often say.....it is Allah's will

[2015/01/29 13:30]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's easy to say

[2015/01/29 13:30]  Max Chatnoir: we don't want to be left all alone.  It's scary.

[2015/01/29 13:31]  Areyn Laurasia: just a way for them to accept things they cannot change

[2015/01/29 13:31]  herman Bergson: Not only that....it is also a way to accept the hardship you ar ein for instance

[2015/01/29 13:31]  Max Chatnoir: God is testing me.

[2015/01/29 13:31]  herman Bergson: Yes..things like that...

[2015/01/29 13:32]  herman Bergson: and a good excuse for all kinds of actions....

[2015/01/29 13:32]  Ciska Riverstone: or the force you put on others - but we need no god for that - companies argument the same: well for the people in balngladesh thats a lot of money we do only the shareholders will

[2015/01/29 13:33]  Bejiita Imako: ah

[2015/01/29 13:33]  Ciska Riverstone: its the same psychological mechanism

[2015/01/29 13:33]  Max Chatnoir: I heard a congressman quoted on NPR.  The environment isn't government's responsibility; it's God's responsibility.

[2015/01/29 13:33]  Areyn Laurasia: That's quite shocking

[2015/01/29 13:34]  herman Bergson: Nice example Max

[2015/01/29 13:34]  Bejiita Imako: now thats nuts

[2015/01/29 13:34]  Bejiita Imako: so he an be free from responsibility

[2015/01/29 13:34]  Bejiita Imako: by saying its gods will

[2015/01/29 13:34]  Ciska Riverstone: or the shareholders ;)

[2015/01/29 13:34]  Ciska Riverstone: its the same mechanism

[2015/01/29 13:34]  Max Chatnoir: and we don't have to worry about energy use.

[2015/01/29 13:35]  Bejiita Imako: no wonder the markets crash

[2015/01/29 13:35]  Bejiita Imako: if they think that way

[2015/01/29 13:35]  Bejiita Imako: that god controls it

[2015/01/29 13:35]  herman Bergson: Well...I guess now you have some idea how we can come to religious ideas...

[2015/01/29 13:36]  herman Bergson: It IS a part of our system...

[2015/01/29 13:36]  Ciska Riverstone: well - its a way of organizing a lot of people

[2015/01/29 13:36]  Max Chatnoir: Yes, that makes sense.

[2015/01/29 13:36]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are we talking about 1 god or several gods?

[2015/01/29 13:36]  herman Bergson: It can have that effect indeed Ciska

[2015/01/29 13:36]  Ciska Riverstone: of course

[2015/01/29 13:36]  Ciska Riverstone: so we need to think how to replace it

[2015/01/29 13:37]  herman Bergson: Doesn’t matter Beertje

[2015/01/29 13:37]  Max Chatnoir: It seems to be hard to replace gods with anything but other gods.

[2015/01/29 13:37]  Ciska Riverstone: when we want to have a different world

[2015/01/29 13:37]  herman Bergson: That is an often heard remark Ciska...

[2015/01/29 13:37]  herman Bergson: the idea that we have to "replace" religion

[2015/01/29 13:37]  Ciska Riverstone: yes max

[2015/01/29 13:37]  Ciska Riverstone: right now we just replace one with the next

[2015/01/29 13:38]  Areyn Laurasia: or we should just take up responsibility for our own thoughts and actions

[2015/01/29 13:38]  Bejiita Imako: and reject science

[2015/01/29 13:38]  herman Bergson: How can you replace where there in reality IS nothing....

[2015/01/29 13:38]  Bejiita Imako: science and religious people have always opposed each other

[2015/01/29 13:38]  Ciska Riverstone: yes areyn - still that has to be organized somehow

[2015/01/29 13:38]  Ciska Riverstone: wellthe question is are thoughts nothing?

[2015/01/29 13:38]  herman Bergson: yes Ciska...

[2015/01/29 13:39]  herman Bergson: Maybe by rules we make ourselves...pragmatic rules

[2015/01/29 13:39]  Max Chatnoir: As much as I love science, I wouldn't want it to be treated like a religion.  We get it wrong sometimes.

[2015/01/29 13:39]  Ciska Riverstone: yes max

[2015/01/29 13:39]  Max Chatnoir: Maybe philosophy is like religion without coercion.

[2015/01/29 13:39]  Bejiita Imako: religion is belief in something we dont know really exist while science are hard facts about how things really work

[2015/01/29 13:39]  Bejiita Imako: proven facts

[2015/01/29 13:39]  Ciska Riverstone: science has no judgement

[2015/01/29 13:39]  herman Bergson: Careful now......for here we need to keep a clear definition of religion in mind

[2015/01/29 13:39]  Ciska Riverstone: not in a moral sense

[2015/01/29 13:40]  Areyn Laurasia: well.. if the pope had gone for a science talk earlier.. he wouldn't have released a white dove.. and now have to use balloons instead

[2015/01/29 13:40]  Daruma Boa: but also the hard facts of science changes^^

[2015/01/29 13:40]  Bejiita Imako: sometimes yes but science is always about actual observation

[2015/01/29 13:40]  herman Bergson: yes they do Daruma...

[2015/01/29 13:40]  Daruma Boa: ja and religion mostly not^

[2015/01/29 13:40]  Ciska Riverstone: bejiita - there we go with empathy - how can you prove that scientific?

[2015/01/29 13:41]  Areyn Laurasia: why can't religion and science co-exist?

[2015/01/29 13:41]  Ciska Riverstone: the amount

[2015/01/29 13:41]  Bejiita Imako: like seeing quarks and bosons with a particle accelerator or material structure with an electron microscope

[2015/01/29 13:41]  Ciska Riverstone: if its there

[2015/01/29 13:41]  herman Bergson: You can see the difference between empathic and non empathic behavior Ciska

[2015/01/29 13:41]  Ciska Riverstone: they do areyn - imho - but one wants to lead the other and that does not work

[2015/01/29 13:41]  Bejiita Imako: but we cant observe god that way or with any instrument

[2015/01/29 13:41]  Max Chatnoir: But what we see is marks on a screen that we interpret as particles.

[2015/01/29 13:41]  Ciska Riverstone: but that depends on the culture herman

[2015/01/29 13:42]  herman Bergson: Nevertheless....

[2015/01/29 13:42]  Ciska Riverstone: it needs a reference system

[2015/01/29 13:42]  Ciska Riverstone: and thats where things become difficult

[2015/01/29 13:42]  Daruma Boa: and what it is found out about the bibel, does not work what we believe.

[2015/01/29 13:42]  herman Bergson: Science and religion are two totally different languages...

[2015/01/29 13:43]  Bejiita Imako: very different

[2015/01/29 13:43]  Ciska Riverstone: and why herman?

[2015/01/29 13:43]  herman Bergson: We'll get to that when we look at creationism

[2015/01/29 13:43]  herman Bergson: One reason, Ciska is..

[2015/01/29 13:44]  herman Bergson: that for instance the ideas about gods are contradiction all laws of nature.

[2015/01/29 13:44]  herman Bergson: Like the idea of Malebranche....

[2015/01/29 13:44]  Ciska Riverstone: lets look at the psychological reason

[2015/01/29 13:44]  Ciska Riverstone: science tries to describe what is there - religion tries to describe things which are in flow

[2015/01/29 13:45]  herman Bergson: Yes Ciska, we'll certainly discuss the psychology of religious behavior too...

[2015/01/29 13:45]  Max Chatnoir: Somebody in the Bible did a sort of experiment.  I can't remember who it was.  There were the priests of Baal and him, and he said, OK we'll both ask our gods to do something and see who responds.

[2015/01/29 13:45]  Max Chatnoir: Sort of hypothesis testing there.

[2015/01/29 13:45]  Ciska Riverstone: and religion does that with moral and not materialistic things

[2015/01/29 13:46]  herman Bergson: That is an important point Ciska....can there be morals without a god?

[2015/01/29 13:46]  herman Bergson: btw...Max, who won? :-)

[2015/01/29 13:46]  Daruma Boa: yes, we have that from the beginning of life.

[2015/01/29 13:46]  Max Chatnoir: Not Baal.

[2015/01/29 13:46]  Daruma Boa: scientists tested that with babies

[2015/01/29 13:47]  Max Chatnoir: I can't believe I can't remember who the prophet was.  Any of you know?

[2015/01/29 13:47]  Ciska Riverstone: yes

[2015/01/29 13:47]  herman Bergson: To my left are to pictures on the wall, which are URLs for Youtube movies...

[2015/01/29 13:49]  herman Bergson: We still have along lists of subjects to deal with, as you see :-))

[2015/01/29 13:49]  herman Bergson: But for today....may I thank you all again :-))

[2015/01/29 13:49]  Bejiita Imako: nice again Herman ㋡

[2015/01/29 13:49]  herman Bergson: Class dismissed .... ^_^

[2015/01/29 13:50]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Daruma Boa: /me claps

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Daruma Boa: dank je wel!

[2015/01/29 13:50]  bergfrau Apfelbaum: very interesting! thank you herman & class

[2015/01/29 13:50]  herman Bergson: /me smiles

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Daruma Boa: interesting it was

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Bejiita Imako: cu next time

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for all the good points raised.

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Bejiita Imako: yes very

[2015/01/29 13:50]  herman Bergson: You are welcome Daruma

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Ciska Riverstone: dank je wel herman

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman ㋡

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Bejiita Imako: kee getting better and better

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Bejiita Imako: keep

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Max Chatnoir: Never a dull moment!

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Bejiita Imako: no

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Daruma Boa: see u next week

[2015/01/29 13:50]  Bejiita Imako: bye all

[2015/01/29 13:51]  Max Chatnoir: Will you put the URLs on the blog?

[2015/01/29 13:51]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all:)

[2015/01/29 13:51]  Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Waves ㋡

[2015/01/29 13:51]  herman Bergson: Bye Bejiita ^_^

[2015/01/29 13:51]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten

[2015/01/29 13:51]  Ciska Riverstone: welterusten ㋡

[2015/01/29 13:51]  herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[2015/01/29 13:51]  bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye :-) and good weekend

[2015/01/29 13:52]  Ciska Riverstone: enjoy everyone ㋡

[2015/01/29 13:52]  Areyn Laurasia: It was Elijah

[2015/01/29 13:52]  Max Chatnoir: Yes!  thanks!

[2015/01/29 13:52]  Max Chatnoir: It's actually in the Oratorio.

[2015/01/29 13:52]  Max Chatnoir: The Priests Baal shouting out.

[2015/01/29 13:53]  Max Chatnoir: My mind is going....

[2015/01/29 13:53]  Max Chatnoir: OK, time for the door to open.  See you all next week, Herman, Areyn, Bergie.

[2015/01/29 13:53]  Areyn Laurasia: Good night :)

[2015/01/29 13:54]  Max Chatnoir: Good night.

[2015/01/29 13:54]  bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye :-)

[2015/01/29 13:54]  herman Bergson: Night Areyn :-))

[2015/01/29 13:54]  Object:  Frans de Waal has just been used by Areyn Laurasia!

[2015/01/29 13:55]  herman Bergson: Really worth watching, Areyn...

[2015/01/29 13:55]  Areyn Laurasia: checking out the tedtalk

[2015/01/29 13:55]  herman Bergson: ok...enjoy :-)

[2015/01/29 13:55]  Areyn Laurasia: Thanks :)

[2015/01/29 13:55]  herman Bergson: See you next Tuesday :-))

[2015/01/29 13:56]  Areyn Laurasia: Have a wonderful week

564: Star Trek and Atheism....

Star Trek - Voyager, Season 3, episode 7 : “Sacred Ground”.

Roles:

Captain Kathryn Janeway of the Starship Voyager

Commander Chakotay, First Officer

Kes, assistent of the doctor

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Kes enters a Holy Shrine of ancestral spirits out of curiosity and is hit by a force field and fell into a coma. Only knowledge of the nature of the force field can save Kes’s life.

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The Naconians refuse to give the information, for it is  holy for them. Then we get the next conversation:

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CHAKOTAY: Of course there is always the possibility that ancestral spirits really do control what happens in the shrine.

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JANEWAY: To each its own, Commander, but I imagine, that if we scrap deep enough, we’d find scientific base for most religious doctrines.

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CHAKOTAY: I remember, when my mother taught me about the science underlying the vision quest, in a way, I felt disappointed. Some of the mystery was gone. Maybe the Naconians have chosen not to loose the mystery.

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Later Janeway is criticized by Three Wise of Naconia with remarks like this:

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“If you can explain everything, what is left to believe in?”

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“Even when her science fails right before her eyes, she has full confidence in it. Now, that is a leap of faith”

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At the end of the episode Kes recovers from the coma and the doctor has a perfect scientific explanation for what has happened.

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JANEWAY: It is a perfectly sound explanation, doctor ….. [she hesitates with an expression of clear doubt on her face] ….. very scientific.

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Isn’t Star Trek educational !? All answers to the question “Why do we have beliefs?” in a nutshell: science versus mystery, belief explained away, clinging to science is a belief too, science as another religion. 

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Amazing isn’t it. And the scientific Janeway leaves the viewer with a feeling of doubt, in other words “to each his own”. But although this all happens in the far future, we are already ahead of Janeway.

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We live in an phase of scientific development: the age of neuroscience. And as Daniel  Dennett says, religion is a natural phenomenon. You can see it, measure it, so study it.

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As an organism we are an integrated collection of problem solving devices, adaptations, that were shaped by natural selection over evolutionary time

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to promote, in some way, the survival of the genes, that directed their construction. Our cells need food and oxygen. The heart solves the problem.

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The blood transports it all to the cells and its hemoglobin takes care of the transportation. And the brain does the same with respect to body functions and interaction with our environment.

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What we have to keep in mind is that the brain is indeed an integrated collection of problem solving devices, but that these devices go through a learning proces during development.

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 And in that process all kinds of by-products may emerge, or old patterns may surface, which means it is not a Mr. Spock like brain.     

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To give you an example: When was the last time you scold your computer, even hit it? When was the last time you asked your bowling ball to hit all pins in a streak?

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We all know this kind of behavior. It is only one step away from talking to a crucifix or an image of some saint or god. Or isn’t it?

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To answer this question we have to look at the development of the brain. One of the first psychologists, who did this, was jean Piaget (1896 -1980).

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He discovered that in the cognitive development of a child between 2 and 7 there is a period of animism: the belief, that inanimate objects can be conscious.

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This can be explained by an implicit understanding of the world in a child's mind which assumes that all events are the product of intention or consciousness. 

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The child at that age is cognitive unable to distinguish the external world from one's internal world.

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Later we develop more cognitive insights, so that we know that talking to a tree makes little sense, but this doesn’t mean, that is disappears from our mind.

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And thus you could conclude that the religious behavior with respect to idols, images, crucifixes and the like is a by-product of this feature of the cognitive mind.

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like reading and writing is a by-product of our ability to use language and music is a by-product of our ability to hear differences in pitch.

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When I say that the old tree in front of your house will do your taxes, clean the table and do the dishes, you probably would feel a bit sorry for me,

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But what do you feel  when I say: “Go outside and tap the tree three times. Then do a wish and your wish will come true”? 

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Bad luck for you if you haven’t such a tree in your yard, of course.

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This animistic trait in all of us is one step away from all kinds of ritualistic and religious behavior, but this is only one of the traits of the brain, which can lead to beliefs.

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Next lecture will be on one of our strongest mental inclinations: dualism, the belief that body and mind are two separate entities.

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That is very interesting from a Star Trek perspective, for the transporter system there only decompose and compose the molecules of the physical body…..?!

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Thank you …. the floor is yours….. ^_^

The Discussion

[2015/01/27 13:16]  Daruma Hermine Boa  claps

[2015/01/27 13:16]  .: That is very interesting from a Star Trek perspective, for the transporter system there only decompose and compose the molecules of the physical body…..?!

[2015/01/27 13:16]  Max Chatnoir: I always say thank you to my car for turning on the dome light at night.  There's animism.

[2015/01/27 13:16]  Gemma Allen  GIGGLES!!

[2015/01/27 13:16]  Gemma Allen ...LOL...

[2015/01/27 13:16]  .: Thank you …. the floor is yours….. ^_^

[2015/01/27 13:16]  Bejiita Imako: heehe

[2015/01/27 13:17]  herman Bergson: /me grins...

[2015/01/27 13:17]  Corona Anatine: yes and there is the question of how the SL transporter would be safety tested

[2015/01/27 13:17]  science24: LOL

[2015/01/27 13:17]  Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman ㋡

[2015/01/27 13:17]  CB Axel: I wish my tree could do my taxes.

[2015/01/27 13:17]  herman Bergson: almost everybody is animistic....has animistic beliefs it seems

[2015/01/27 13:17]  Abinoam Nørgaard  needs that tree

[2015/01/27 13:17]  Max Chatnoir: I guess I'm really thanking ... the designer and builder of the car.

[2015/01/27 13:17]  science24: does it contain some DNA :)

[2015/01/27 13:17]  Ewa Aska: is online.

[2015/01/27 13:17]  Corona Anatine: so did kent hovind

[2015/01/27 13:17]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i would just like to point out that people to not pray TO a crucifix or statue or picture... It is only a symbol of what they believe they are praying to

[2015/01/27 13:17]  Abinoam Nørgaard nods

[2015/01/27 13:18]  CB Axel: Good point, Gemma. It helps to concentrate the mind.

[2015/01/27 13:18]  herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....you can look at that in several ways...

[2015/01/27 13:18]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[2015/01/27 13:18]  Bejiita Imako: transporters re impossible since your own mind would forever disappear and you would die and another independent mind with no past memories would emerge instead at the other location

[2015/01/27 13:18]  Corona Anatine: then why is facing that symbol important?

[2015/01/27 13:18]  Bejiita Imako: you die and he is born in that moment

[2015/01/27 13:18]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): focus

[2015/01/27 13:18]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): reverence

[2015/01/27 13:19]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): why do people keep photos of paintings of those they love

[2015/01/27 13:19]  Corona Anatine: but if 'god' is everywhere it shouldn’t matter which direction faced

[2015/01/27 13:19]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): same thing

[2015/01/27 13:19]  herman Bergson: You could say that, but yet we use these statues and images....

[2015/01/27 13:19]  herman Bergson: not a white piece of paper for instance

[2015/01/27 13:19]  Corona Anatine: indeed so - proving god is not god

[2015/01/27 13:20]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or a word as in meditation

[2015/01/27 13:20]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): like the buddhists

[2015/01/27 13:20]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): we are creatures who like to employ symbols, symbolism is an important human characteristic. homo symbolicus and all that

[2015/01/27 13:20]  Bejiita Imako: ah

[2015/01/27 13:20]  herman Bergson: yes....a meaningless word even...

[2015/01/27 13:20]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[2015/01/27 13:20]  herman Bergson: True Abinoam....

[2015/01/27 13:21]  herman Bergson: There are theories about this ritualistic behavior...

[2015/01/27 13:21]  herman Bergson: We'll get to them , I assume

[2015/01/27 13:21]  Max Chatnoir: Is it like the superstitious pigeons?

[2015/01/27 13:21]  Ladyy Seiling (ladyy.haven): is offline.

[2015/01/27 13:21]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): however i am not trusting the tree calling 911 on the advisor

[2015/01/27 13:21]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): lol

[2015/01/27 13:21]  Bejiita Imako: your theory of left over animism can indeed be an explanation of religious belief

[2015/01/27 13:21]  Janette Shim: is offline.

[2015/01/27 13:21]  Corona Anatine: anthropomorphising is innate to humans however-so we will inevitably inbue objects with a 'soul' concept

[2015/01/27 13:21]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): have you tried? maybe it works :D

[2015/01/27 13:22]  Bejiita Imako: from the childhood period

[2015/01/27 13:22]  herman Bergson: It is already something that you doubt the tree Gemma :-)

[2015/01/27 13:22]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i not only doubt it but an fearful for the person who suggested

[2015/01/27 13:22]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so calling 911

[2015/01/27 13:22]  herman Bergson: Yes corona we are wired with animism...

[2015/01/27 13:22]  Max Chatnoir: Didn't somebody do an experiment that made pigeons display superstitious behavior?

[2015/01/27 13:22]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): (emergency help in usa)

[2015/01/27 13:23]  Corona Anatine: its just as that science advances our knowledge base of the world - that 'god' [s] will recede into 'supernatural world'

[2015/01/27 13:23]  Ciska Riverstone: we doubt the tree but belief that the global market makes sure everyone is cared for in the right way - I'm not really sure if the tree would be less hurtful for societies

[2015/01/27 13:23]  herman Bergson: I am afraid that this "superstitious" is just our interpretation, Max

[2015/01/27 13:23]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): in defense of ritualism, there's also a component of beauty and art there. it's not all superstition, some of it has aesthetic value

[2015/01/27 13:23]  Max Chatnoir: True.

[2015/01/27 13:24]  Corona Anatine: if you believe that the global market caters for all then you do have the mind of a child

[2015/01/27 13:24]  Ciska Riverstone: well we postulate that

[2015/01/27 13:24]  herman Bergson: I am not pleading for abolishing all religious and ritualistic behavior...

[2015/01/27 13:24]  Ciska Riverstone: by doing it

[2015/01/27 13:24]  herman Bergson: that would not be realistic....

[2015/01/27 13:24]  Corona Anatine: or possible

[2015/01/27 13:25]  herman Bergson: But when a philosopher looks at atheism.....he has questions :-)

[2015/01/27 13:25]  CB Axel: I think maybe the ritual also helps to focus the mind.

[2015/01/27 13:25]  Max Chatnoir: It seems to be remarkably durable

[2015/01/27 13:25]  CB Axel: It's not just a superstition, it helps with attention.

[2015/01/27 13:25]  Corona Anatine: religion is like 'art ' impossible to surpres because innate to human minds

[2015/01/27 13:25]  herman Bergson: Yes, that may be so, CB....

[2015/01/27 13:25]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): one should always question, definitely

[2015/01/27 13:25]  Bejiita Imako: ah

[2015/01/27 13:25]  herman Bergson: But that is how we think about it today...

[2015/01/27 13:26]  Max Chatnoir: How do you think religion is different from philosophy?

[2015/01/27 13:26]  Corona Anatine: and if believe in 'god' were cleened than something else would replace it

[2015/01/27 13:26]  herman Bergson: Nobody has any idea what the future of religion will be.....in ...say a 100 years

[2015/01/27 13:26]  herman Bergson: And then....which religion?

[2015/01/27 13:26]  Max Chatnoir: They are both concerned with what exists and how we behave, and so on.

[2015/01/27 13:26]  Ciska Riverstone: it already happens corona

[2015/01/27 13:26]  herman Bergson: Hinduism, Islam, Zen, christianity?

[2015/01/27 13:26]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and i am sure that those who loved 100 years ago thought the same

[2015/01/27 13:26]  Corona Anatine: relgion is perhaps diff in that phil offers no external hope

[2015/01/27 13:27]  Corona Anatine: philosiphy offers knowledge not hope/faith

[2015/01/27 13:27]  herman Bergson: Well Gemma...I guess they wouldnt have believed that today in th eNetherlands only 17% still believe in a god

[2015/01/27 13:27]  Max Chatnoir: At least in the monotheistic religions, there seems to be some authority figure.

[2015/01/27 13:27]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): offers a lot more questions

[2015/01/27 13:27]  Ewa Aska: is offline.

[2015/01/27 13:27]  Corona Anatine: that is because religion is an ongoing evolving process

[2015/01/27 13:27]  Ciska Riverstone: i was referring to the economic systems societies built herman

[2015/01/27 13:27]  herman Bergson: It is Corona...

[2015/01/27 13:28]  Ewa Aska: is online.

[2015/01/27 13:28]  Max Chatnoir: So the arguments are about who is in charge of the world.

[2015/01/27 13:28]  herman Bergson: And to understand this evolution, we have to study it

[2015/01/27 13:28]  Corona Anatine: agreed

[2015/01/27 13:28]  Bejiita Imako: very true

[2015/01/27 13:28]  herman Bergson: Who do you think, Max??

[2015/01/27 13:28]  Ciska Riverstone: our beliefs? ,)

[2015/01/27 13:28]  Corona Anatine: i would say -no one in charge as such

[2015/01/27 13:29]  herman Bergson: Maybe...

[2015/01/27 13:29]  herman Bergson: I would suggest the laws of nature and physics

[2015/01/27 13:29]  Ciska Riverstone: beliefs are a logical expression of not knowing but having to built a future

[2015/01/27 13:29]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is much too complicated for one person anyway or even a committee

[2015/01/27 13:29]  herman Bergson: And we are intelligent spectators :-)

[2015/01/27 13:29]  Bejiita Imako: indeed Physics and chemistry is the god of the world

[2015/01/27 13:29]  Bejiita Imako: nothing else

[2015/01/27 13:29]  Max Chatnoir: That sounds good to me, but a lot of people seem to care about which authority is THE authority.

[2015/01/27 13:30]  Corona Anatine: or rather getting you to agree with there one authority

[2015/01/27 13:30]  herman Bergson: There are some interesting things to say about...

[2015/01/27 13:30]  Ciska Riverstone: because we think dualistic max and lack a reference system of how it should be "right"

[2015/01/27 13:30]  herman Bergson: For instance..that some believe that THE authority transcends all laws of nature and physics

[2015/01/27 13:31]  Max Chatnoir: Yes, and that's what makes it religion.

[2015/01/27 13:31]  Corona Anatine: how would that ever be determined in a practical sense?

[2015/01/27 13:31]  Max Chatnoir: IMO.

[2015/01/27 13:31]  herman Bergson: Yes....and then there is the question....What SI religion.....?

[2015/01/27 13:31]  herman Bergson: IS

[2015/01/27 13:31]  Corona Anatine: because if it transcends then it is beyond - and if it comes into the world of physics then it isnt outside

[2015/01/27 13:31]  Max Chatnoir: Well, it can't be determined pragmatically; hence the battle.

[2015/01/27 13:32]  Corona Anatine: a good question

[2015/01/27 13:32]  Max Chatnoir: Well, I guess the SL gods are the Lindens.

[2015/01/27 13:32]  herman Bergson: I notice a battle on several fronts....

[2015/01/27 13:32]  Corona Anatine: cant it be easier determined by asking what religion isn’t

[2015/01/27 13:32]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[2015/01/27 13:32]  Corona Anatine: no the god of sl is script lang

[2015/01/27 13:33]  Bejiita Imako: nope thats the sl bible

[2015/01/27 13:33]  herman Bergson: the philosophical battle...like between JJC Smart and JJ Haldane is a complete different battle from the one on the neurobiological front

[2015/01/27 13:33]  Bejiita Imako: the LSL

[2015/01/27 13:33]  Max Chatnoir: In the beginning was the LSL...

[2015/01/27 13:33]  CB Axel: Script language was handed down to us by the Lindens. °͜°

[2015/01/27 13:33]  Bejiita Imako: something like that

[2015/01/27 13:33]  Corona Anatine: cna for example an army or the hells nagels MC be called a religion ?

[2015/01/27 13:33]  Bejiita Imako: and the Linden saw it was good

[2015/01/27 13:33]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[2015/01/27 13:33]  herman Bergson: Amen CB.....and it made us the creators

[2015/01/27 13:33]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): sounds like a writing project ...the sl bible

[2015/01/27 13:33]  Corona Anatine: the HA for example pay reverence to a concept

[2015/01/27 13:34]  Max Chatnoir: Oh, that would be a good project!

[2015/01/27 13:34]  Bejiita Imako: hehe yes

[2015/01/27 13:34]  Bejiita Imako: sounds interesting

[2015/01/27 13:34]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i used ot have a sl prayer

[2015/01/27 13:34]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): was fun

[2015/01/27 13:34]  Corona Anatine: which transcendes the members as individuals

[2015/01/27 13:34]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[2015/01/27 13:34]  Corona Anatine: as does the concept of 'animal rights / earth first

[2015/01/27 13:35]  Max Chatnoir: I don't think the army can be called a religion, but I can't articulate why yet.  I guess because the authority figures are all real and identifiable.

[2015/01/27 13:35]  Corona Anatine: which are not alwasy about animals

[2015/01/27 13:35]  Corona Anatine: and there is reverence to a concept of army honour/the flag

[2015/01/27 13:35]  Max Chatnoir: Yes, like loyalty to your university.

[2015/01/27 13:35]  Mikki Louise Dover (mikkilouise): is offline.

[2015/01/27 13:35]  herman Bergson: Well at least you all now know that you are in a way religious...all of you , in your animism :-))

[2015/01/27 13:36]  Corona Anatine: but if we can determine when something is not a religion it becomes easier to define what is one

[2015/01/27 13:36]  Corona Anatine: an element of animism is the key then?

[2015/01/27 13:36]  herman Bergson: An interesting point about animism is, that it often is regarded as a primitive stage of religiosity...

[2015/01/27 13:37]  Max Chatnoir: attributing agency to objects.

[2015/01/27 13:37]  herman Bergson: yes Max

[2015/01/27 13:37]  Bejiita Imako: animism and religious belief seems logical to be connected in some way

[2015/01/27 13:37]  Bejiita Imako: at least for me

[2015/01/27 13:37]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): maybe not so much to objects, as to what animates them

[2015/01/27 13:37]  Corona Anatine: the hells angels would not be a religion because while they worship the club and colours they dont consider them to be inhabited by spirits

[2015/01/27 13:37]  Max Chatnoir: And then you expand the domain of the responsibility for this and that.

[2015/01/27 13:37]  herman Bergson: And for some reason we are only religiously grown ups when we adhere a monotheistic belief

[2015/01/27 13:38]  Max Chatnoir: Oh, one of those philosophers DID propose that God was required for all movement.  Who was it?

[2015/01/27 13:38]  herman Bergson: Aristotle did....the First Mover....

[2015/01/27 13:38]  Max Chatnoir: somebody around 17th century?

[2015/01/27 13:38]  Corona Anatine: so a question would have to be - if a tree did grant wishes -whence comes the power source for them

[2015/01/27 13:38]  herman Bergson: And in the Middle Ages....

[2015/01/27 13:38]  Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman, wishes everyone a good time ㋡

[2015/01/27 13:38]  Corona Anatine: the tree itself or the laws of the universe or an external 'god'

[2015/01/27 13:39]  Max Chatnoir: But this person also mean in terms of any movement any time.

[[2015/01/27 13:39]  Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): bye chantal

[2015/01/27 13:39]  Bejiita Imako: bye chantal

[2015/01/27 13:39]  CB Axel: Bye, Chantal.

[2015/01/27 13:39]  herman Bergson: The Greek Parmenides perhaps...

[2015/01/27 13:39]  herman Bergson: Wasn’t he the guy of the PANTA REI?

[2015/01/27 13:40]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): it seems to me that animism builds on the basic perception that there is life out there, a living force that does animate, not just us human, but living beings in general. and then the nowadays strange notion of objects as somehow alive as well

[2015/01/27 13:40]  Corona Anatine: by that criterea no religion is actually grown up because we don’t actually have any monotheism

[2015/01/27 13:40]  Max Chatnoir: The person I'm thinking of was later, I think.  Trying to reconcile free will with divine determinism.

[2015/01/27 13:40]  Max Chatnoir: You think you are moving, but God is really doing it.

[2015/01/27 13:40]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): it seems like a primitive way to rationalize life as such

[2015/01/27 13:40]  Corona Anatine: for example the rc church is often more focussed on saints than 'god'

[[2015/01/27 13:41]  Max Chatnoir: I'll have to look it  up; I thought it was an odd idea for that time period.

[2015/01/27 13:41]  CB Axel: They don't worship the saints, though.

[2015/01/27 13:41]  Corona Anatine: that sounds like the gaia hypothesis alb

[2015/01/27 13:41]  herman Bergson: I'd say that animism is just a by-product of our cognitive development Abinoam

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Corona Anatine: but they are seen as a source of power

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): n they are considered interceders to god

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the saints that is

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Bejiita Imako: something like that

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): because they have already made it to heaven

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Corona Anatine: but old style polytheism was often like that

[2015/01/27 13:42]  CB Axel: Yeah, Gemma. I think they're more of a conduit to God.

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Corona Anatine: there were the gods and then there were the spirirts

[2015/01/27 13:42]  Max Chatnoir: Yes, that's an interesting notion, too.

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Bejiita Imako: the saints connect to god

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Roto Diesel: is offline.

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Max Chatnoir: That priests or saints or your mother can intercede for you.

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Bejiita Imako: a pathway sort of

[2015/01/27 13:43]  herman Bergson: Saints are other questionable phenomena :-)

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Corona Anatine: as did the spirits in nature connect with the poly gods

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Ciska Riverstone: (gtg - thanx herman - have a good day or night folks ㋡ )

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ciska

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): bye ciska

[2015/01/27 13:43]  science24: night Ciska

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Bejiita Imako: wowo all are so quick away today!

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Max Chatnoir: Why ARE there saints.?  I haven't thought about that before.

[2015/01/27 13:43]  CB Axel: My problem with Christianity as a monotheistic religion is that they worship God and Jesus.

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Bejiita Imako: lol

[2015/01/27 13:43]  Corona Anatine: there is also an argument that a lot of animism is mixed with the concept of ancestor worsj hip

[2015/01/27 13:44]  CB Axel: And the Holy Spirit.

[2015/01/27 13:44]  herman Bergson: yes indeed Max , good question :-)

[2015/01/27 13:44]  Abinoam Nørgaard (abinoam): the doctrine of trinity attempts to make sense of that

[2015/01/27 13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the church thought it was good to recognize those who hve proved themselves worthy to be with god

[2015/01/27 13:44]  Max Chatnoir: Interesting that talking about atheism raises so many questions about religion!

[2015/01/27 13:44]  CB Axel: Yeah, Abinoam, but I don't buy it. LOL

[2015/01/27 13:44]  herman Bergson: yes...attemps....but it is a total abstraction

[2015/01/27 13:44]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and examples for the faithful

[2015/01/27 13:44]  Corona Anatine: saints are probably in part to do with ancestor worship

[2015/01/27 13:44]  Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): I have to go also

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Corona Anatine: reverence for 'great' people

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): omg

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Bejiita Imako: hehehee

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): See you next week.

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Gemma Allen  GIGGLES!!

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Gemma Allen  ...LOL...

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Max Chatnoir: Oh, I love "abstraction"  Keep that word, Herman.

[2015/01/27 13:45]  herman Bergson: I think, some minds get overloaded here today :-))

[2015/01/27 13:45]  Corona Anatine: such as today we have 'celebrities'

[2015/01/27 13:45]  herman Bergson: So I'd better thank you all again :-)

[[2015/01/27 13:45]  herman Bergson: Thank you all and Class dismissed ^_^

[2015/01/27 13:46]  CB Axel: Thank you, herman.

[2015/01/27 13:46]  Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[2015/01/27 13:46]  Max Chatnoir: Interesting discussion!

563: Why do people believe?

During human evolution, the hominid brain tripled in size, peaking 500,000 years ago. Much of the brain's expansion took place in the neocortex.

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This part of the brain is involved in processing higher order cognitive functions that are connected with human religiosity. 

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The neocortex is associated with self-consciousness, language and emotion. The brain is therefor the starting point of our existence. The system that can say “I exist”.

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There is inconclusive evidence that Homo Neanderthalensis may have buried their dead which is evidence of the use of ritual. 

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The use of burial rituals is thought to be evidence of religious activity, and there is no other evidence that religion existed in human culture before some 50.000 years ago.

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The religions which we know, are even much younger. Hinduism, Old testament monotheism. How old are they? Give or take a 4000 years or so.

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And then there is this peculiar feature of monotheism. Why is it “better” than polytheism? 

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Take for instance the Moon, where the Sun was another deity. Look at this list……

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Almost the whole world regarded the Moon as a deity. Why did we stop doing so? We had to send out missionaries to convince others that you only have one god.

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In other words, we are in the strange situation, that relatively religion as we know it is only a recent invention.

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And that, although the monotheistic  religion claims that its god is from all eternity. 

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Why then look so many cultures at the Moon as a Deity and didn’t they know that there was only one god?

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The answer is in fact rather simple. It is because we are our brain. The mind is what the brain does. No brain means no mind, no human existence.

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Now, what does that brain do  with respect to believing. We believe a lot of things. We believe that grass is green, that this stone will fall to the ground.

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Ask anyone…everybody believes these daily ordinary things. But for some reason this does not apply to religious believes.

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 For instance, the belief in a god, in creation, in an afterlife, in the devil, in miracles, in a heaven, in reincarnation.

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Religion is just like anything else we do: a kind of human behavior. And in this new age of cognitive science and neurobiology this behavior has become a subject of scientific research.

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To answer the question “WHY do we believe?” these sciences are closing in on the subject and produce explanations, based on evidence.

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Jean Calvin (1509 -1564) believed that man had a special faculty, which revealed to him the existence of god.

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Alvin Carl Plantinga (1932 - …), widely known for his work in philosophy of religion, epistemology, metaphysics and Christian apologetics still holds the same ideas.

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However, our knowledge of the brain, cognitive behavior and social psychology have not found evidence for such a special faculty .

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Some may object, that faith never can be a subject of scientific research. However, whatever you call it, “faith”, “belief”, it is just human behavior.

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And as such it is observable and measurable and in the next lecture I’ll present you some results of these observations.

.

Thank you all again…. the floor is yours ^_^

.

The Discussion

Areyn Laurasia: What about intuition?

Daruma Hermine Boa claps

herman Bergson: I'll talk about that next time indeed Areyn :-))

Areyn Laurasia: okay :)

Max Chatnoir: Herman, I think you said something brilliant!  Everybody believes that grass is green and that the sun comes up and so forth because that is common human experience.  But religious experience is personal experience -- not shared.  So everybody is convinced that their god is THE God.

Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

Gemma Allen: we are always thinking ahead

herman Bergson: Yes Max, religious beliefs seem to come from another source...:-)

herman Bergson: But yet they come from the brain activity

Bejiita Imako: ah

Daruma Hermine Boa: I think belief is the motivation to find answers. and science is one step further

CB Axel: Isn't there a part of the brain that predisposes us to believe in a god?

Ciska Riverstone: it does not have much effect if i do experience my green in the grass a little lighter then someone else -but it makes a huge difference if i perceive something like love different then the one i am in love with ;)

Ciska Riverstone: same source

Max Chatnoir: I have had at least one experience that might be interpreted as religious.  It was profound.  And it was preceded by a TIA several weeks or maybe months earlier.

herman Bergson: Yes Ciska...

Ciska Riverstone: so people don't mind - as the belief in the grass is not that important ;)

Max Chatnoir: Everything got very clear and sharp and I felt deeply connected to the universe.  It lasted for several days.

Areyn Laurasia: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/feeling-of-presence-induced-in-the-lab/

herman Bergson: YEs max, that is a normal experience I would say....

Max Chatnoir: I actually thought I might be having another stroke or something.

herman Bergson: That is worse....

Max Chatnoir: Except that it was a lot more fun.  :-)

herman Bergson: But to Ciska....

Gemma Allen: :-)

herman Bergson: the difference between the green grass and the feeling of love is that the green experience comes from the senses...

herman Bergson: the feeling of love is a direct product of the brain itself....

Bejiita Imako: true

CB Axel: I read a book a long time ago where a man tried a lot of different things that cause mystical experiences.

Bejiita Imako: however stimulated by the senses

herman Bergson: That is also true of religious beliefs

CB Axel: It was really interesting.

Max Chatnoir: Yes, I think that love might be similar.  It's a response to something individual.

Bejiita Imako: its complicated

Bejiita Imako: very individual

Bejiita Imako: for sure

Ciska Riverstone: and we still all claim we know what it is

herman Bergson: There are a lot of tricks to cause mystical experiences CB

Ciska Riverstone: and that its there

CB Axel: The book is called "Rational Mysticism."

Gemma Allen: or chemicals

Gemma Allen: natural or created

herman Bergson: LSD, Mescaline, the God Helmet, hypnosis, meditation....name it

Max Chatnoir: All I was doing was driving home from the Columbus Zoo.

CB Axel: Yes. He tried a lot of them.

CB Axel: The author

Gemma Allen: there are still those doing those experiments now

herman Bergson: But it all boils down to manipulating the bran chemistry

Areyn Laurasia: I don't know if there's a god or not but sometimes in December 2013, I sat under a tree in SL, under a rainbow. There was a strong sense of unease and a short moment later, I got a buzz from my sis that my mom was going to have a surgery. Months later, in RL, I missed a connecting flight on the way home and again I saw a rainbow.. and it ended at a tree.

herman Bergson: so, in fact, nothing special about that

Ciska Riverstone: as it does not have the same effect on everyone... there must be something else in that

Ciska Riverstone: whatever it is ;)

herman Bergson: Well some get drunk and nasty and others get drunk and funny....

Daruma Hermine Boa: true

Max Chatnoir: Well, in my grimmer moments, I just think that religion is a power grab.  If you think about the big evangelists, they are usually male.

herman Bergson: Different body chemistry...

Ciska Riverstone: different air around

Bejiita Imako: we react different to things

Ciska Riverstone: different experiences

herman Bergson: yes that puzzles me also Max, this male dominance in religions...

Gemma Allen: hah

Ciska Riverstone: does not puzzle me ;)- men seems to think more in hirarchies as women do

Max Chatnoir: I wonder what religion would look like if we were not primates.

Areyn Laurasia: aren't most who thought the moon is a goddess treating religion as a dual aspect?

herman Bergson: then we would live and look like bonobos, I guess :-))

Ciska Riverstone: cool question max - yes

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: Ahhh Max..there si some flaw in your question.....

Max Chatnoir: I once saw a young chimp holding her hand out in a begging gesture, except she was looking up at the sky.

herman Bergson: it sounds dualistic....

Max Chatnoir: Dualistic how, Herman?

herman Bergson: there is me and my physical appearance.....

herman Bergson: which could look like a fish

Gemma Allen: the chimps also like babies as far as some moral ideas

Max Chatnoir: Your Inner Fish.  :-)

Gemma Allen: fairness

Areyn Laurasia: maybe the chimp was feeling the air

Max Chatnoir: Actually chimp brains mature faster than human brains.  WE are more like babies in that sense.

Max Chatnoir: So maybe the god impulse is a wish for a really powerful parent?

herman Bergson: The chimp brain has much less capacities as our brain.....

Gemma Allen: hmm

Max Chatnoir: Yes, a lot less.

herman Bergson: We need a longer learning process to master them all

Gemma Allen: i think a desire to know that one will have a second life with a deity after death

Gemma Allen: or as the buddhists future lives

Gemma Allen: never ending

herman Bergson: so a chimp has not even to graduate from Kindergaten to get menallly mature :-)

Areyn Laurasia: until you find the sunyata.. the nothingness

Max Chatnoir: Well, maybe the Neanderthal burials are telling us that religion is about wanting immortality.

Areyn Laurasia: what about sky burials?

Areyn Laurasia: or cannibalistic tribes?

Max Chatnoir: Communion.

CB Axel: Maybe the Neanderthal burials were about cutting down on the stench of decomposing bodies.

herman Bergson: At least it is a ritual Areyn....

Areyn Laurasia: or cremation and the scattering of ashes.. those wouldn't leave traces

Gemma Allen: true

herman Bergson: no other primate performs rituals

Gemma Allen: hmmm

Max Chatnoir: I'm not sure about that, Herman.  I don't know what a ritual would be to another primate, but some behaviors look ritualistic.

herman Bergson: the point here is that we have ideas about the dead body......

Max Chatnoir: Clapping in bonobos.

herman Bergson: yes I know....some animals really seem to grieve for instance

Max Chatnoir: Once a male chimp dipped his finger in his water dish and stroked it across the back of my hand.

Ciska Riverstone: or the point might be that we have psychological bonds to people who are no longer with us from one day to another and try to express our loss

herman Bergson: Yes Ciska.....

Max Chatnoir: That felt ritualistic to me.  I don't know what it meant to him.

herman Bergson: We do....

Max Chatnoir: Yes, it's so hard to lose people or even animals that we love, that the idea of immortality would be really attractive.

Max Chatnoir: And it goes back really far -- at least to Gilgamesh.

Ciska Riverstone: easier to do that when we know how to - as we are busy mourning

Ciska Riverstone: it helps the group

herman Bergson: I'll definitely talk about that next Tuesday...!

Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

herman Bergson: You already have pointed at a number of issues :-)

Areyn Laurasia: why would anyone want immortality?

herman Bergson: Yes Areyn....I dont like the idea myself...

Gemma Allen: i think we all would if it were a good one

Gemma Allen: no pain

Ciska Riverstone: not sure if people want that areyne but often they do not want to lose other people

.: Beertje :.: Gilgamesh was a king of Uruk, Mesopotamia, who lived sometime between 2800 and 2500 BC.

Gemma Allen: good food

Gemma Allen: no health issues

herman Bergson: Fascinating novel by Simone de Beauvoir....Nobody is Immortal...

Areyn Laurasia: it's a cycle..

Gemma Allen: no need for money

Gemma Allen: hey

herman Bergson: You should read it....

herman Bergson: I guess you are immediately freed from the loning for immortality :-)

Areyn Laurasia: why don't we just live the good life now instead of waiting or hoping for some other better life

herman Bergson: longing

herman Bergson: I am doing that every day Areyn ^_^

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

.: Beertje :.: ㋡

Areyn Laurasia: That's very good :)

Gemma Allen: and if we had immortal life we could see what is the truth of alll the things that are argued about now globally

Max Chatnoir: I wouldn't mind living a little longer if I weren't falling apart, but we sure would have to stop reproducing, and that might get sort of static.

Gemma Allen: the things that bug us politically

Gemma Allen: etc

Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

Areyn Laurasia: power for the few

herman Bergson: We are in power here Gemma :-))

Gemma Allen: hah

Bejiita Imako: hehehe

Areyn Laurasia: if we are immortal, the world's problems would seem so trivial and irrelevant

Gemma Allen: many believe that

herman Bergson: I guess we have enough questions open for the next lecture ^_^

Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

herman Bergson: Being immortal would be a complete disaster for this world....

Daruma Hermine Boa: dank je wel herman!!

Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

Gemma Allen: for now

herman Bergson: Thank you all again....:-)

Areyn Laurasia: yeah.. imagine getting stuck with the same people and issues for all eternity.. XD

Bejiita Imako: cu next time ㋡

herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for the class

Max Chatnoir: If we were immortal, our problems would be crucial!

Ciska Riverstone: thanx all

Daruma Hermine Boa: see u next week

Ciska Riverstone: have a great day or night folks

Bejiita Imako: hugs

Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.

herman Bergson: Indeed Areyn....:-))

CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

herman Bergson: My pleasure CB :-))