644: What to do with 3180 gods...?

There has emerged a new way of understanding what is true. If I am not mistaken, it is a contribution to this world by Donald Trump.

    

From now on we have facts. When you talk about facts I assume you mean state of affairs which are true.

    

But from now on we also have ALTERNATIVE FACTS. So on the one hand you have true statements

    

and on the other hand you have alternative facts, alternative statements, which claim to be true too.

    

In this context we have the naturalist view on the meaning of life and on the other hand the alternative facts of creationism.

   

As you may recall: creationism is the theory, that the meaning of life can be deduced  from the fact, that we are the product of an intelligent design.

   

Throughout most of the human history most people have  not accepted the naturalistic conception, that the universe is the product of blind, purposeless forces.

     

That is still true today. People think that the universe must have some sort of creator, commonly referred to as God.

   

If so many  people believe this,  aren’t you inclined to assume that there must be some grain of truth in it, isn’t it?

    

But now we have to face the first problem. Here I have a list of 3180 gods in which people have believed

   

and who have been held responsible for this creation one way or the other.

   

The second problem is, that a believer claims that his god is the only true one there is. But how do you pick the real and true god from a list of 3180 gods?

     

I would be happy to learn what criteria make someone’s choice of a god from the list the true and only one.

     

Then we have a third problem. I do not know which ones, but I reckon that a lot of the listed gods are completely forgotten.

      

One I know of is Zeus or Apollo, for instance. You might object by saying. He is not forgotten, you talk about him now!

     

True, but only because I know the name, the history and old Greek mythology, as we call it now. But as a god Zeus has lost his job.

     

Now take this fourth problem: suppose that among those forgotten gods in fact the true and only is,

     

that people have been to stupid or lazy to see this. How can we ever know?

     

Let’s compromise: forget about a particular god. Just stick to the fact that one way or another man has been convinced about a something.

     

You could claim, that throughout history man has recognised that existence finds its origin in some creational act of some force or being.

     

And this creational act has created some order and design in the world we live in and in ourselves.

    

Let’s assume that all religious and ritual things are only a metaphoric way of man to express his understanding of this design aspect of reality.

    

Thus we may conclude, that the idea that there must be some cosmic designer sometimes is justified with intricate arguments, 

    

but perhaps more often based on a kind of 

basic instinct, the strong compulsive feeling, that the universe not only can be a blunt fact.

     

Let’s take this basic instinct serious and put it under the magnifying glass to investigate  it in a next lecture.

     

Thank you for your attention… ^_^

THE DISCUSSION

[13:21] Daruma Boa (daruma): Thats the base of the human race  this "basic instinct"

[13:21] herman Bergson: What do you mean  Daruma?

[13:21] Daruma Boa (daruma): or also called "gut feeling"

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have never heard of most of these gods at that list even

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i recognize some of the Indian ones but that there have been so many

[13:22] CB Axel: Where did you get that list?

[13:22] herman Bergson: Neither have I Bejiita

[13:22] herman Bergson: I forgot CB

[13:22] herman Bergson: Found it on some site when I did research for my Atheism project

[13:22] Daruma Boa (daruma): every nation has its own gods. Its an expression of a nation. and so different from country to country.

[13:23] herman Bergson: But I check randomly some weird names and they were gods indeed

[13:23] CB Axel: That's true, Daruma.

[13:23] herman Bergson: would you call it nationalism Daruma?

[13:23] CB Axel: Some of those gods may be just a different name for the same god.

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Kronos i know about, the god of time, from where we get chronograph = clock

[13:24] Daruma Boa (daruma): no.its and idea of your world which you learned from your parents

[13:24] herman Bergson: Could be, CB

[13:24] Daruma Boa (daruma): or from your world around you

[13:24] Daruma Boa (daruma): a so called mind set

[13:24] herman Bergson: But even when the list had only ten different names we still had the same problems to deal with

[13:24] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes. people don’t want to learn new things

[13:24] CB Axel: True.

[13:25] Daruma Boa (daruma): or, have problems to accept other things

[13:25] Daruma Boa (daruma): which are outside their "own" world

[13:25] herman Bergson: If that were true Daruma there would be no science

[13:25] Daruma Boa (daruma): i peak for the "normal" folks;-)

[13:25] herman Bergson: maybe your statement is an over-generalization?

[13:26] herman Bergson: as a philosopher I do not know what "normal' folks are

[13:26] Daruma Boa (daruma): there are alwys people who want to know more. but most like tostay in their vilage

[13:26] CB Axel: If people are afraid of things outside their own world, why would they believe in an otherworldly god?

[13:26] Daruma Boa (daruma): the average people like to stay in their comfort zone

[13:27] Daruma Boa (daruma): taking no risk

[13:27] herman Bergson: I really wonder Daruma....

[13:27] CB Axel: Some unknown and unknowable god sounds more frightening to me than believe that we just are here without outside influence beyond nature.

[13:27] herman Bergson: Just look at the demonstrations in Rumania at the moment.....

[13:28] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes,it neds a lot of pressure to cot of this zone

[13:28] Daruma Boa (daruma): to come

[13:28] herman Bergson: That   sounds paradoxical CB...

[13:28] herman Bergson: How can you know an unknown god...even worse an unknowable  god?

[13:29] Daruma Boa (daruma): whe we humans get enough pressure we try to find a way out

[13:29] CB Axel: Gods are unknowable because we can never fully understand them.

[13:29] CB Axel: Unknown because we don't know them. We never meet them.

[13:29] herman Bergson: That you can only say when you understand a god....

[13:30] Daruma Boa (daruma): but, don’t we give all of these gods a meaning by ourselves?

[13:30] Daruma Boa (daruma): so why should we do not understand tem?

[13:30] Daruma Boa (daruma): them

[13:30] CB Axel: Of course we give them a meaning, because they are all made up by us.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Well...I agree...you should meet the god himself first...be able to communicate with it/him/her

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:31] herman Bergson: face to face I mean...:-))

[13:31] CB Axel: I don't know, Daruma. I just vaguely remember hearing of an unknowable god from some prayer or other.

[13:31] Daruma Boa (daruma): this is only possible on different levels.E.g. meditation about this special god

[13:31] herman Bergson: I want him here in the classroom....shake hands and say..nice to meet you

[13:32] herman Bergson: not as a phenomenon in my mind

[13:32] oola Neruda: have you ever sat and watched the sun set over the ocean or behind a mountain... and  been in total awe... experienced a deathbed... or a field of crops coming up... or a thousand geese descending upon it..... or a child who is ill and you cannot help that child..... the mysteries.... are enough to make you wonder... and reach for some...."answer".... you recognize patterns... so that "answer" must have purpose or order or something bigger than you are

[13:32] Daruma Boa (daruma): thats not so easy herman;-))

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when i see a god i believe but otherwise not

[13:32] herman Bergson: for then it still is only in my head

[13:32] Daruma Boa (daruma): you must be serious

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i have never seen a god and so i dont bellieve in them

[13:32] Daruma Boa (daruma): Its a discussion between yourself and a symbol

[13:33] herman Bergson: it is self reflection only

[13:33] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes herman!

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even not anything concluding all but natural and logical forces

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all physics and chemistry, not gods

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats my belief how the world works but that is me

[13:33] Daruma Boa (daruma): ist also gods

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita but the point is that our brain produces also other ideas, beliefs and so on...

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:34] Daruma Boa (daruma): we are all not so far away from old symbols as we all think

[13:34] herman Bergson: not just scientific ones

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true, ve an be really creative in general

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we all think a bit different

[13:34] herman Bergson: So eventually some people say...wait a minute....science is also just a belief

[13:34] Daruma Boa (daruma): true

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: it is ;)

[13:35] Daruma Boa (daruma): its a way of thinking. science

[13:35] herman Bergson: I have no problem with that....

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but with science you can always proof things

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like they did with the higgs boson in LHC

[13:35] herman Bergson: it is the justification of the belief that counts

[13:35] CB Axel: Science, properly done, is not just a belief. It's testable.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and by measurements in general we can confirm scientific things as well as with math, but that is impossible to do with gods

[13:35] herman Bergson: As you say CB...it is the justification of a belief that makes it meaningful

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: well a beliefer would maybe claim the same thing for his or her belief cb ;)

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: (religious believer)

[13:36] herman Bergson: No problem Ciska....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Let him justify the fact that jesus walked on water....

[13:36] CB Axel: I have never seen proof of a god that's testable and verifiable.

[13:36] Daruma Boa (daruma): ;-)

[13:36] herman Bergson: shhow me the arguments that justify that belief

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example the LHC have conformed everything i read in the schoolbooks about physics and chemistry by showing it to me live

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but can someone proof wht is in the bible? no

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: I didn't take a snapshot and wasn't born then herman ;)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it’s impossible

[13:37] herman Bergson: I have no problem with any belief people hold....

[13:38] herman Bergson: But holding a belief has consequences for the way this believer treats me for instance....

[13:38] CB Axel: Exactly, Herman.

[13:38] herman Bergson: I have no problem with that either.....

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: it has mostly consequences how the believer treats himself

[13:39] herman Bergson: But as he affects my life I have the right to ask for a justification of his actions towards me

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue with gods i think is it causes conflict and wars about whos god is the right one

[13:39] herman Bergson: and if he says..it is because I believe this or that

[13:39] herman Bergson: I have the right to ask him to justify his beliefs

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instead of holding us together as one big family

[13:39] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes, precise

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: so when its not provable that jesus walks on water - how does that affect your life?

[13:39] herman Bergson: as I have the right to justify mine

[13:40] CB Axel: I don't mind if someone wants to believe, but I do object if they then try to impose their rules arbitrarily chosen from a book of fairy tales supposedly inspired by a made up deity that I have a problem.

[13:40] herman Bergson: ti affects my life in the consequences people deduce from that fact and the power of this jesus ove life for instance

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just wonder who made that idea up, the division of the red sea however could have been a tsunami or similar, someone thought it was the work of a god and put it in the bible

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but walking ON water?

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb - I totally get that - but that does work for science beliefs as well  - we need to strictly separate hardly science from science there and thats the problem.

[13:41] herman Bergson: For instance that it is possible to defy or ignore natural laws or even claim that they are wrong

[13:41] Daruma Boa (daruma): when u run enouhg fast u can walk on water^^^

[13:41] herman Bergson: Like christians fight evolution theory for instance

[13:41] oola Neruda: or climate change

[13:41] herman Bergson: I bet you can Daruma :-))

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: hard science does give relational "if then " chains - mostly involving objects

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many things in the bible i think are for ex natural disasters occuring long ago that people did not understand the cause of at the time

[13:41] Daruma Boa (daruma): not only the christians. Turkey now also

[13:42] CB Axel: Yes, Ciska, but that is why scientific research needs to be verified independently,

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: and that does not happen with a lot of science these days

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the great flood was probably just a really big storm

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: so  - the problem really is to be specific there

[13:42] herman Bergson: tests should be replicable

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like kathrina

[13:42] CB Axel: It happens with science a lot more than it does in religion.

[13:42] herman Bergson: replicable

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and if you look at social science for example -  this will never happen  - nothing is reproducible in full all the time

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and thats exactly the point where belief kicks in

[13:43] oola Neruda: as an artist, i think in symbols... poets do also... the Quran is poetry and i see no reason why the Bible is not really poetry...

[13:43] herman Bergson: Well....in a next lecture we might clarify what creationism has as arguments for their point of view

[13:44] CB Axel: Good point, Ciska. Social science is a tough one. °͜°

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: (as one consciousness scientist put it: one neuron is neurology 2 are psychology)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you can say that oola its poetry for sure but poetry is not reality, its a story

[13:44] Daruma Boa (daruma): we still ave to learn a lot as a human

[13:44] CB Axel: LOL, Ciska.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the bible want you to believe it is reality

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb - but thats what was covered by religion in former days

[13:44] herman Bergson: True Ciska.....

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: before we had social science

[13:44] Daruma Boa (daruma): the bible is totally misunderstood. believe me

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in those days however indeed there were no scence

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: we needed to find principles

[13:44] oola Neruda: it is a story to lead one to deeper thoughts...conclusions

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: which were flexible enough to grasp reality

[13:45] herman Bergson: I think that all axiomatic systems are systems of beliefs

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: wihtout digging too deep

[13:45] Daruma Boa (daruma): the bible was used. not understood

[13:45] oola Neruda: like defining love....

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa

[13:45] oola Neruda: it isn't scientific

[13:45] herman Bergson: Euclid geometry  for instance

[13:45] oola Neruda: you need another "language"

[13:46] herman Bergson: To hit someone an the head with, Daruma?

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: oola I think so too

[13:46] oola Neruda: smiles

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] Daruma Boa (daruma): lol, no. but too many old men did an interpretation with do not nowing hebrew of the bible

[13:47] herman Bergson: We discovered another language in the 17th century oola....

[13:47] Daruma Boa (daruma): so over the centuries there were a lot of mistakes

[13:47] oola Neruda: or the culture behind the symbols

[13:47] herman Bergson: or even 16th century...

[13:47] Daruma Boa (daruma): ja dat kan

[13:47] herman Bergson: that language was mathematics

[13:47] CB Axel: And now a book with a lot of mistakes in it is being used to make laws that I don't believe in and don't want.

[13:48] herman Bergson: Pythagoras already believed that reality was mathematical

[13:48] Daruma Boa (daruma): yes, i read a book about that. terrible to read this now. Because we build a life on these "wrong" information

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i agree with that

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): math is natures language

[13:48] Daruma Boa (daruma): and symbols

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): since we can calculate something and it is always true when done right

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its provable

[13:48] Daruma Boa (daruma): humans life and react mostly on symbols

[13:49] herman Bergson: what book are you talking about CB?

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also math is how computers can do everything they do

[13:49] CB Axel: The Bible

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sound pictures ect can all be turned into math

[13:49] herman Bergson: I see :-)

[13:49] Alina Gabilondo: i think all of you discuss what bible writes but modern edition

[13:50] Alina Gabilondo: there are 2000+ years passed

[13:50] Alina Gabilondo: bible was rewrote many many times by monks

[13:50] Alina Gabilondo: usually not high educated ppl just with good handwriting

[13:50] Alina Gabilondo: so we do not know what happened that time

[13:50] oola Neruda: translation causes problems

[13:51] CB Axel: Alina, I'm talking about whatever Bible the people trying to force me to live with their rules are reading. If they actually read it, that is.

[13:51] Alina Gabilondo: we may onlt build supposed

[13:51] oola Neruda: especially when they do not understand the culture of the others speaking

[13:51] Daruma Boa (daruma): hoi merel

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: Hi merel

[13:51] Alina Gabilondo: at some condition nature show to is paradoxes

[13:51] oola Neruda: translating poetry (symbols) is even harder

[13:51] Alina Gabilondo: not possible now to check

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: its quality versus quantity oola

[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: norr ever know what really happen

[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: may be i type slow too late for me rl

[13:52] CB Axel: It is getting late for most of you. °͜°

[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: but also Bible is for population who HAVE to believe in some

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well then it is time to leave our 3180 gods behind

[13:53] Alina Gabilondo: believe not check

[13:53] herman Bergson: and I thank you for your participation again....:-)

[13:53] Daruma Boa (daruma): ja we humans must learn to believe things again

[13:53] Daruma Boa (daruma): not only checking

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[13:53] herman Bergson: I believe.....class dismissed ^_^

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:53] Daruma Boa (daruma): the most important thing we have are our feelings abut situtaions

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:54] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:54] Daruma Boa (daruma): not about excel lsts

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this keeps getting better

643: The Do-It-Yourself people

In a previous lecture I said that naturalist theories state that human life emerged as the result of some blind and random physical process.

  

We just are, we exist. We may for certain goals use ourselves and each other, but these goals can not be deduced from what we are in essence.

  

There are at least two ways in which we can face  this apparently bleak picture. One is simply to accept that life has no meaning. 

  

The other is to question the assumption underlying the pessimistic conclusion: life can have only meaning, if we are here with a purpose.

   

Of course the easiest way out is to claim that an external being has offered us this purpose, that we are created with a purpose.

   

Yesterday I paid a visit to the Museum of Anthropology in Leiden. They have a collection of (historical) artwork from all over the world.

   

Beautiful, but almost 95% of the objects were used in religious rituals or created with a religious purpose in mind.

   

And then you realise how eager homo sapiens all over the world has been and still is in believing in this purpose of live and believing in gods for the purpose.

    

Not one god,  the one that for instance blesses America, but literally hundreds, if not thousands of gods, which have come and go as history progresses.

   

In Western Europe, but also in Islamic countries people change their mind these days and leave their original religious ideas behind and become do-it-yourself people.

   

For the existentialist  the crucial truth is that we must face the fact that we ourselves are responsible for making our goals as meaning and purpose are not built into life. 

  

It is not that life has no purpose, it just does not have a predetermined goal. This requires that we must confront ourselves 

  

with our own responsibility to give our goals a sense for ourselves and exactly that is something we are not too willing to do.

    

As Sartre says, we’d rather exist like a stone than as a being that constantly is responsible for his own situation and thence has to make choices all the time.

   

Yet the idea that our fate is to some extend in our own hands can give us a feeling of power and have a liberating effect on us.

   

In my previous lecture I added to this the idea, that you should not interpret human existence only in this abstract existentialist way as just BEING with responsibility,

  

but that you also have to understand homo sapiens within his natural context as being part of a biological world of primates, of social animals.

   

However, a lot of people are reluctant or plainly unwilling to accept such an interpretation of our existence.

   

It is like, they might argue, that we are facing the reality of a meaningless universe and thence decide that we’ll invent its meaning ourselves.

  

The underlying thought is that the meaning we think of ourselves is fake, is inferior to a meaning of life which is predetermined for us.

  

If we can give life a purpose and a meaning, then there is no objective reason, however, why this should be considered as  an inferior kind of meaning  in comparison with one that could be given by a creator or the like.

  

Thank you for your attention…. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Nice you all agree :-)

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:20] Roger Amdahl: do we ??

[13:21] herman Bergson: Well...could be I was too unclear...:-)

[13:21] herman Bergson: But then you would ask..plz clarify this or that

[13:22] herman Bergson: Main question of today is....

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Does life have a meaning or not and if so what

[13:22] Roger Amdahl: If the message is,  life itself has no meaning,  only our brain functions in a way we feel life more comfortable as we can add some meaning,  then I agree

[13:23] herman Bergson: We can define our own meaning of life in al sorts of way....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess so

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and that is what is going on if you dont have a belief in a creator

[13:24] herman Bergson: and why would that purpose and meaning be inferior to a meaining of which it is believed that it was defined by someone/thing outside us

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): each define life they way they want it

[13:25] herman Bergson: Besides...

[13:25] CB Axel: Well, if we give ourselves purpose and meaning we can't blame anyone else for our messed up lives.

[13:25] herman Bergson: when the meaning of life is defined by some being independent of use and we have to follow that.....are we better of then...or poorer actually

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it becomes sort of chaotic tho doesnt it?

[13:26] CB Axel: If we believe our purpose was given to us by a creator, we can say, "It's God's plan," and put the blame on him. °͜°

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes CB :-)

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: well the main reason why we kind of are reluctant to happily define our own reason is the avoiding responsibility thing isn't it ?

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that is an easy thought

[13:26] CB Axel: I'm beginning to see a good reason for having a religion.

[13:26] herman Bergson: That is what Sartre meant.....that we rather like to be like a stone

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t think so ciska

[13:27] herman Bergson: I would say so Ciska :-)

[13:27] Roger Amdahl: Yes,  and how does "god's word" reach us ??  Some people .. complete strangers to the world keep telling they, and only them, know Gods word,  and how to live

[13:27] herman Bergson: Gemma thinks diferently, it seems

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not differently just looking at it from the other side

[13:28] herman Bergson: which side is that?

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lots of people don't take responsibility for their actions, it's Allah or gods wil they say

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the side of those who made all those religious objects

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you saw

[13:28] herman Bergson: @Roger...The eternal question...^_^

[13:29] CB Axel: I would say that Gemma is being the devil's advocate if I believed in devils. °͜°

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:29] herman Bergson: they were believers....had their predetermined purpos eof life

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is correct

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is not as simple as it sounds

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: well -  having someone to give responsibility too may set free creativity ;)

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or we would  not be having this topic

[13:30] herman Bergson: a meaning filled in by someone else

[13:30] herman Bergson: Indeed Ciska...

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear have to poof

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: aww

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:31] CB Axel: Bye, Gemma

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well CU Gemma

[13:31] herman Bergson: Be well Gemma :-)

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma

[13:32] herman Bergson: We might spend some effort in attempting to understand creationists...they are not exactly a minority in this world...

[13:32] herman Bergson: Are they right yet one way or the other?

[13:33] CB Axel: I don't think they're right about anything.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Nice subject for a next lecture ^_^

[13:33] herman Bergson smiles

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] herman Bergson: I must admit, we are somewhat biased here ^_^

[13:34] CB Axel: It seems that creationists purpose in life is to annoy me.

[13:34] Roger Amdahl: They can be right.  You just need to dispose of all scientific evidence, and be very narrow sighted to keep on with the creationists.  And they probably say this about me too :)

[13:34] herman Bergson: To be honest.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Oh...Roger....

[13:35] herman Bergson: Here we then first have to discuss the meaning of "BEING RIGHT..."

[13:35] herman Bergson: but what I wanted to say is....

[13:35] CB Axel: OK. I'll just turn off my brain and blindly follow the bits of a book of fairy tales that I want to believe.

[13:35] herman Bergson: all those artworks in that museum....the one even more beautiful than the other

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yet is annoyed me a little....because af these religious origins of these objects

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: why is this annoying?

[13:37] herman Bergson: The observation of such view at reality....but that is just my personal thing

[13:37] herman Bergson: So much energy and creativity...kind of wasted in my opinion

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: mh - how would it have been better spend?

[13:38] herman Bergson: in those contexts it couldn't Ciska...

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: that is an interesting question

[13:39] herman Bergson: there might not even have existed secular art

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess you mean Cant you make this kind of art without mixing in religion

[13:39] CB Axel: There are some beautiful secular paintings. Those who painted sacred subjects could have painted landscapes and portraits as beautiful as what they did paint.

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): If i get it right

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita :-)

[13:40] Roger Amdahl: minimalisme would be the art form too small for any God :))

[13:40] CB Axel: There is some beautiful secular music, too. No need to write hymns.

[13:40] herman Bergson: But I must admit that religion has inspired people to great works of art :-)

[13:41] CB Axel: Unless it is hymns to the natural world.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Fact is....we can't deny or ignore religious behavior....is aprt of our nature it seems

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe it was not allowed to paint anything else in those days?

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: well they tried to paint something beyond the reality of objects or even living persons somehow - . in many ways secular art is trying to catch "story-teling" which is a try to express exeriences in general

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: experiences and of course ideals and wishes

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: difficult to put those on paper

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: hence the symbolism

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes...there is that longing for the transcendenttal....

[13:43] herman Bergson: the mysticism...

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: or the longing to express concepts like love and emotion - justice?

[13:44] herman Bergson: The belief that there is more than just  our consciousness

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: (in a way they cannot be denied kind of ;) )

[13:44] herman Bergson: No ...but here you see the same mechanism.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: take justice .....

[13:45] herman Bergson: the longing for some absolute....some independent answer

[13:45] herman Bergson: We want certainty.....

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: yes - so the try to describe it

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: with kids you do that in stories too

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: fairytales even

[13:45] herman Bergson: which might be invain then, of course

[13:46] herman Bergson: Because we just exist and have to define our own meaning of life

[13:46] Roger Amdahl: Why does life need a meaning ?

[13:46] herman Bergson: There is no outside helper :-)

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: mh - if that is so and a lot of people want to create a belief system and define that as their own meaning of life- what then?

[13:47] herman Bergson: You define it every day in the choices you make Roger

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I know at least what my meaning of life is this weekend

[13:47] herman Bergson: Then you have an ideology or religion, Ciska

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Streetdance/Hip hop party for 11 hours total

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: ehehhe great beejita

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): will be amazing

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats one goal for now

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then more goals will come

[13:48] Roger Amdahl: I work to pay for food and fun,  that is not a meaning of life.

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess that is one way to think about the meaning of life

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes -  herman - thats what I wanted to point out

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its individual

[13:48] herman Bergson: what is it then, Roger?

[13:48] Roger Amdahl: Life has no meaning

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the general real menaing is very much more difficult to find though

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Im just me

[13:49] Roger Amdahl: Life is a coincidence of circumstances in the universe

[13:49] herman Bergson: That's what  we already discussed, Roger:-)

[13:50] Roger Amdahl: If life had a meaning,  that meaning would be valid for all life forms ?

[13:50] herman Bergson: So if you want to give it a reason to be here, create one :-)

[13:50] herman Bergson: No...

[13:51] herman Bergson: I think it is a typical human thing to ask for the WHY

[13:51] herman Bergson: But in the ecological chain all elements can have a purpose in relation to each other

[13:51] herman Bergson: But a bee never will ask why he is flying from flower to flower

[13:52] herman Bergson: we do and see the purpose of this behavior

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: here comes another thesis ;) (psychological one;) : a human being well connected to her or his emotions won't ask the question because it will constantly try to fulfil social needs and physical needs.

[13:54] herman Bergson: you mean that  fullfilling these needs is a constant purpose of such a person?

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thats a thesis yes

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: the problem is

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: when the emotional system is blocked

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: it does not work

[13:55] herman Bergson: I'd say that this is obvious if you put it in relation to our pain - pleasure balance

[13:55] herman Bergson: if the emotional system is blocked the person lost control ove rhis dealing with pain and pleasure

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: and then starts the process in trying to correct that yes

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: by "rational" means

[13:56] herman Bergson: and this would cause problems in his social contexts...

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: totally

[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: isn't that where we are right now in the western world?

[13:57] herman Bergson: Looks like it indeed

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: the consciousness process  - in psychology - often starts with crises

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: no crises - less consciousness development as it seems

[13:59] herman Bergson: maybe....

[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: might just be a notion though - difficult to prove that

[13:59] herman Bergson: you could turn it around....

[13:59] herman Bergson: crises often stimulate a growing consciousness

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[14:00] herman Bergson: Guess we have reached a crisis here now too :-))

[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: heheheh

[14:00] Ciska Riverstone: ok

[14:01] herman Bergson: So I'd better thank you all again for your participation :-)

[14:01] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:01] CB Axel: Thank you again, Herman.

[14:01] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman  - thanx all

[14:01] Roger Amdahl: Thank you herman

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again ㋡

642: Against narrow-minded philosophy.....

In my previous lecture I mentioned narrow-minded philosophy by which I meant the believe that reasoning and rationality is the road to finding a meaning of life.

  

The existentialists got at least that far, that they claimed that we create our morality by the choices we make,

   

But here too, these choices are based on our rationality. How can there be a choice, when you behave irrational?

  

Nevertheless it is a start of a departure from the longing for absolute moral standards, which only can come from a source beyond our rationality.

   

But I still have no answer to the question why homo sapiens has this yearning for such transcendental absolute standards.

  

The demand that moral codes be justified by more universal standards than pure feeling or social dictate is, 

  

on the contrary, much more consonant with widespread, intuitive notions about the nature of moral justification.

  

If social pressure is taken as the touchstone of morality, we court a confusion between might and right; 

  

if feeling is taken as the touchstone, we must apparently abandon not only the notion of a universal morality, 

  

feelings being notoriously fluctuating and individual, but also the notion that one of the functions of morality is to refine, direct, and control individual feelings.

This is what you read in the MacMillan Encyclopedia of Philosophy and typical for what I call narrow-minded philosophy.

  

Feeling forces us to abandon…… it says, for universal morality presupposes rationality and

  

it is stated that feelings being notoriously fluctuating and individual, are in other words irrational.

  

Again rationality is the standard, but with all evidence we have about the species homo sapiens, one of the primates on this planet,

  

we must come to the conclusion that philosophy is no longer possible by relying on logic and rational reasoning alone.

  

If we search for a meaning of life we have to look at the whole picture, not just at a single faculty of the brain.

  

So the assumption that feelings being notoriously fluctuating and individual is not realistic. As if my feelings are a totally private process.

   

I am a primate, a social being by nature. My feelings are not some processes in the blue sky. They are the result of interaction with my environment.

   

They are not even only individual. A lot of other beings have the same feelings in the same interactions with their environment.

   

So, what we need is a philosophy that comes down from its ivory  tower of rationality and logic and mingles with the crowd of other sciences: psychology, sociology, neuroscience and so on.

   

And then you read on in the MacMillan Encyclopedia:  “It may, of course, be the case that there is no universal morality 

  

and that whatever power morality possesses must derive from individual feeling and social conditioning alone. 

  

It would be surprising, however, if even the emotivists did not experience a certain chagrin that the truth in ethical theory should be so contrary to human hopes.” -end quote-

  

Emotivism is a meta-ethical view that claims that ethical statements do not express statements, that can be true of false, but emotional attitudes.

  

Here again this peculiar twist; “contrary to human hopes”. What hopes? Do we hope to find a meaning of life

  

by finding answers which refer to something outside us and independent of ourselves. Where does this idea come from……..?

   

Thank you for your attention…. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: If I made you think...take your time...:-)

[13:22] herman Bergson: If you have questions or remarks..plz the floor isyours

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you surley did!

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:24] herman Bergson: My point is that we are not defined by the term rational beings....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is much more to it i guess

[13:24] herman Bergson: and that looking for the meaning of life is not only related to what our ratio can produce

[13:25] herman Bergson: To be honest....

[13:25] herman Bergson: A lot of philosophical debate I find  verbal hair splitting....

[13:25] herman Bergson: when you read these articles....about this or that

[13:26] herman Bergson: But our question doesn't accept this

[13:27] Leon Wasserstrom: I dont think we are rational at all

[13:27] herman Bergson: The existentialists found at least a part of the meaning.....

[13:27] Leon Wasserstrom: I mean we all know once you take a puff of particular substance rationality goes out the window right?

[13:28] Leon Wasserstrom: Or when you’re in love

[13:28] herman Bergson sniffs....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Are you smoking a joint Leon???

[13:28] Leon Wasserstrom: No

[13:28] herman Bergson: ^_^

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:28] Leon Wasserstrom: You professor?

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: IS in my pipe....Leon :-)

[13:29] herman Bergson: But I agree that we are not rational beings....

[13:29] Leon Wasserstrom: Whats the question again?

[13:29] herman Bergson: I just say that we are primates with a special faculty which we call rationality...

[13:30] Leon Wasserstrom: Man rationality is against my naturality

[13:30] herman Bergson: It is a simple question Leon :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: What is the meaning of Life :-)

[13:30] Leon Wasserstrom: there is none

[13:30] Leon Wasserstrom: i dont wanna break anyones bubble here but there is none

[13:31] herman Bergson: ok..thnx...you are excused then Leon :-))

[13:31] herman Bergson: Do you have a reason to say that there is none, Leon?

[13:31] CB Axel: I agree with Leon more and more each day.

[13:31] Leon Wasserstrom: That there is no what?

[13:31] Leon Wasserstrom: no empire state building in New York?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Guess you want to be funny Leon :-)

[13:32] Laila Schuman: where do instinct and meaning intersect

[13:33] herman Bergson: There you have a point Laila....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Actually where I referred to in my lecture....

[13:33] herman Bergson: the simple fact that we are primates....part of nature....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Has the existence of this earth a meaning?

[13:34] herman Bergson: If you can not think of any...what about the organisms on its surface?

[13:35] Leon Wasserstrom: We all decide to which degree we make use of our possibility of obiding to morale standards we define ourselves

[13:35] herman Bergson: is that what it is all about Leon?

[13:35] Laila Schuman: where do moral standards come from

[13:35] Laila Schuman: instinct or reason

[13:36] herman Bergson: from instincts..if I follow your line of thought Laila

[13:36] Leon Wasserstrom: instincts

[13:36] Leon Wasserstrom: what feels right

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess so as well

[13:36] Leon Wasserstrom: we really have to feel to believe

[13:36] skeleton Ghost: god-given instinct?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Like social animals use to live together

[13:36] Laila Schuman: social... a magic word

[13:37] herman Bergson: where does this god come from and what doe she add to the picture Skeleton?

[13:37] Leon Wasserstrom: hes a man with a beard in the sky duh

[13:37] Laila Schuman: social... does not need a God...

[13:37] Laila Schuman: enforement, perhaps

[13:37] herman Bergson: Then it is about time he should have a shave, Leon

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have a razor here somewhere

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sharp and ready

[13:38] CB Axel: I think our instincts evolved with us. As we became social animals, those with who cooperated did better and their genetic line was continued.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheh

[13:38] Laila Schuman: organization... is that instinct or reason

[13:38] herman Bergson: Indeed CB

[13:39] herman Bergson: Both LAila, I'd say

[13:39] CB Axel: When we first crawled out of the primordial ooze, we didn't have morals, but we learned that if we wanted to survive we had better learn to get along with one another.

[13:40] CB Axel: IMO

[13:40] Laila Schuman: I was at a "rally" in the US on Sunday evening... organized.... and reasoned

[13:40] Laila Schuman: yes... survival was the unifying factor

[13:40] Laila Schuman: instinctual

[13:40] Leon Wasserstrom: That sounds kindof uninstinctual

[13:40] Leon Wasserstrom: What exactly made you feel threatened?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Not a single animal has morals.....

[13:40] Laila Schuman: Trump

[13:41] CB Axel: Unfortunately, too many people only want to cooperate with a few and want to crush the rest of us.

[13:41] Leon Wasserstrom: Thats completely uninstinctual

[13:41] herman Bergson: that only happened to us

[13:41] Leon Wasserstrom: Im guessing you were informed about everything over social media and television?

[13:41] herman Bergson: because we can reflect on the question...what I did...should I have done it or not

[13:41] Leon Wasserstrom: How is that in an instinctual realm?

[13:41] Laila Schuman: women who are survival of abuse.... take that seriously... and it become instinctual

[13:41] CB Axel: But animals do have morals. Just look at the experiment with the monkeys and the cucumbers/grapes.

[13:41] Laila Schuman: emotional...

[13:41] Laila Schuman: safety

[13:41] Laila Schuman: fear

[13:42] Leon Wasserstrom: But still the triggering information you receive is not something you hear or feel like the way rabbits warn each other of danger by tapping and sending vibrations

[13:42] Leon Wasserstrom: your fear stems from something you read or so trough a medium

[13:42] Laila Schuman: instinctual

[13:44] Laila Schuman: did you listen to trump brag about what he does

[13:44] herman Bergson: The monkeys have no morals...just a sense of what brings more or less pleasure....

[13:44] herman Bergson: and they respond to that

[13:44] Laila Schuman: smiles......... that fits

[13:44] Leon Wasserstrom: No i received information of it trough a biased media outlet

[13:44] Leon Wasserstrom: I didn’t hear him say it personally

[13:45] Laila Schuman: where do you live... we got to hear him...say it out loud... himself

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I just wish someone could shoot that monster before he destroys all of us, he is totally insane, id say he is the new Hitler

[13:45] CB Axel: As opposed to Trump's totally unbiased tweets?

[13:45] herman Bergson: oh plz..no Trump here..:-)))

[13:45] CB Axel: You shouldn't say you want him shot, Bejiita. You

[13:45] herman Bergson: BEjiita....holfdon....!

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess time will tell but in the meanwhile ill not worry but look forward to all good stuff before me

[13:45] CB Axel: You'll get put on a list.

[13:46] herman Bergson: You can't travel to the US anymore Bejiita...you are registered now....:-))

[13:46] herman Bergson: NSA got all our dialog

[13:46] Laila Schuman: and fear of being put on a list is... justified fear

[13:46] CB Axel: lol

[13:46] Laila Schuman: where have you run into that before

[13:47] Laila Schuman: instinct vs reason

[13:47] herman Bergson: I guess it is better to end our discussion here now before anyone else gets forbidden to enter the USA....

[13:47] CB Axel: In the meantime, a right-wing, Christian goes into a mosque and shoots 14 people. Where's the wall to keep Christians out?

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well reason or not, the meaning of life is complex and will we ever find out?

[13:48] herman Bergson: Good point CB

[13:48] Laila Schuman: so is there meaning to life

[13:48] Laila Schuman: do we think or not

[13:48] CB Axel: I doesn't look like it to me, Laila.

[13:48] herman Bergson: There still is a meaning Laila..:-)

[13:48] Laila Schuman: yes... go on

[13:49] herman Bergson: But youhave to put it in the right perspective...

[13:49] herman Bergson: and that is what we are working on here :-))

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have some goals but these goals i have set up myself, for ex tomorrow, kickoff with work, satroday and sunday, huge streetdance party

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so this week im happy with my goals

[13:50] herman Bergson smiles

[13:50] herman Bergson: Bejiita..you are so close to the answer :-)

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said this is a complex but interesting subject

[13:51] herman Bergson: LEt's not spend all our pearls at once ....:-)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:51] herman Bergson: So thank youal again for your participation....

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..^_^

641: A way out of Nihilism.......?

If by nihilism one means a disbelief in the possibility of justifying moral judgments in some rational way 

   

and if philosophers reflect the intellectual climate of the times in which they live, then our age is truly nihilistic. 

   

At no period in Western history, with the possible exception of the Hellenistic age, have so many philosophers regarded moral statements as somehow arbitrary.

   

This is what you can read in the MacMillan Encyclopaedia of Philosophy, but I find the expression “somewhat arbitrary” questionable.

   

It interprets the human being as an organism of which its main control is its rationality and 

    

that moral standards if not rationally and logically deduced from whatever premisses, are somewhat arbitrary.

   

Here we get a kind of reasoning like, when life has no meaning or purpose, you never can know what to do.

   

You therefore have no standards for right and wrong. We have no stepping stones in our rationality, which show us the path.

  

To put it in a decent way, I strongly disagree with this view of man. After all project themes we have discussed here,

   

it might be clear that there is another interpretation possible.

  

To begin with, homo sapiens is not a rational being. That is, his existence, his life is NOT guided and controlled by his rationality.

   

Rationality is one of the assets in his behavioural repertoire, but there are many more elements.

  

At least one group of philosophers had  some understanding of this fact.

  

For many Continental philosophers, especially the atheistic existentialists, moral values are products of choices we make.

   

The most notable statement of this view is in “Being and Nothingness”  (1943) by Jean-Paul Sartre. 

  

We have no criteria to discern good choices from bad choices, but in our choices we establish our moral responsibility. 

  

This moral responsibility we create ourselves and is not based on external or supernatural sources.

   

Sartre explains it thus: Take a letter opener. It is created with a special purpose in mind. That is the meaning of this object.

   

In contrast, take a sharp object like a shard of flint, just a flint even though it could be used to cut. People discovered by accident, that it could be used for that purpose.

   

Sartre's point is that we assume that we are like letter openers and not like stone shards.

   

We believed, that we have some purpose serving an essential nature because God created us with a specific goal in mind.

  

But if God does not exist and the naturalistic interpretation of our existence is true, then the picture is not correct. 

  

We are like stone shards, which just are and nothing more. We may use ourselves for certain goals 

  

to the benefit of  ourselves and each other, but these goals can not be deduced from what we are in essence.

  

This all is reasoning in what I would call narrow minded philosophy. Narrow minded because it all focuses on our rationality as our essence only.

  

Next lecture I might offer you some alternative….

  

Thank you again for your attention… ^_^

The Discussion

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will wait for the alternative

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not a nihilist

[13:27] herman Bergson: Neither am I , I think, Gemma :-))

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): think?

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not really sure I am either

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think I have a purpose in some way at least

[13:27] herman Bergson: That's what philosopher do....think :-)

[13:27] CB Axel: It sounds to me that people use God as an excuse to not choose a goal or purpose in life.

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh wow

[13:28] CB Axel: God has made that decision, so the individual doesn't have to make a choice.

[13:28] herman Bergson: That is too much, CB…..

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is really cynical

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): really even

[13:28] herman Bergson: Lots of people are educated within a religious environment....

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:29] CB Axel: Yeah, well, I've very cynical.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

[13:29] CB Axel: *I'm

[13:29] herman Bergson: YEt you have a point CB....

[13:29] herman Bergson: It has been a serious debate....

[13:30] herman Bergson: if god knows EVERYTHING....then he knows what I will do next....

[13:30] herman Bergson: where is my free will in this???

[13:30] herman Bergson: And in islamic culture you so often hear the words...IF ALLAH wants it...

[13:31] herman Bergson: This IS a serious issue in human behavior

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, we let something that does not exist decide what we should do

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's easy to say that Allah wants things..blame it allon Allah

[13:31] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...

[13:31] herman Bergson: the biggest point is....

[13:32] herman Bergson: that this SOMETHING that never has told us that it KNOWS everything is referred to as the one who knows everything

[13:32] herman Bergson: it is humans who say that this is the case....

[13:33] herman Bergson: very weird situation actually

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit indeed

[13:33] herman Bergson: So..nihilism is still FUN ^_^

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its an interesting subject anyway

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] herman Bergson: it is nihil Bejiita ^_^

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good thing there are so many other philosophies to look at and like

[13:35] herman Bergson: But  the one issue is that is that when there is no external source humans can have no moral standards

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that makes no sense either

[13:36] herman Bergson: the second thing is, that consequently moral standards are arbitrary.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: To me..both statements are nonsense....

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is a little easier to understand tho if you look at different cultures

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): having different standards

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): understand not like

[13:37] CB Axel: Moral standards evolved like we did.

[13:37] herman Bergson: to kill your friend will be a crime in any culture, I guess Gemma

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure about that!!!!!

[13:38] herman Bergson: To steal your neighbours pots and pans too

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: been to Samoa herman? ;)

[13:39] herman Bergson: I agree Gemma..when your friend has an affair with your wife....well...you might change your mind about it ^_^

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:39] herman Bergson: but if he does so he was not your friend GEmma

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who knew

[13:39] herman Bergson: so you kill an ****

[13:40] herman Bergson: What is in Samoa Ciska?

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: they used to have no concept for owning

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): an island with a culture that is very different

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sharing is part of life

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: not sure if thats still the case

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: but in the late 90ties it still was

[13:40] herman Bergson: If they haven’t then there can not be theft either...so problem solved

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: exactly

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so if i buy myself a new car its ok for someone else to just take it and drive away

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not sure id be very happy then

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: I met one of them in australia living with my sister-in-laws sister

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope not bej

[13:41] herman Bergson: no no Bejiita....

[13:41] CB Axel: That wouldn't work in a capitalist society.

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: he really did live it still there hahah

[13:41] herman Bergson: Premise ONE is....

[13:42] herman Bergson: There exists a concept of private property

[13:42] herman Bergson: only then you can have theft

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): unless its ok for me to take another car and so, like sharing in general

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the important thing is i have one so i can get around

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but never heard about a such culture

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yes  that is practised in Australia’s outback too

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: when you leave the car in the outback you leave the keys in

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): car sharing i know about though

[13:43] herman Bergson: there could be a society where dozens of cars are standing around and where anyone can take one and use it, yes

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: in case someone is in need to get a doc

[13:43] CB Axel: Some cities do that with bicycles.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): NY city has bikes anyone can ride

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: YEs CB...

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats another thing indeed, a good thing

[13:43] herman Bergson: also with cars

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and leave at a bike station

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: munich too but u have to pay for it

[13:43] herman Bergson: We have Green Cars here....

[13:44] herman Bergson: You can rent them when you need them....and then leave them

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): heard of that too

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: we use that here in Munich too

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: we own no car any longer

[13:45] herman Bergson: We have this system with bikes and cars...in Amsterdam

[13:45] herman Bergson: an dwith women too...:-)

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:45] herman Bergson: oops...sorry

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahha

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: heheeh old school  - women are objects and can be owned ,)

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: no Ciska....just rented

[13:46] herman Bergson: you have to pay for it :-)

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: well if you want to rent then the one u rent from must own

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just rent them for a short period of time Ciska..on the the "Wallen"red light district

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: otherweise the whole concept does not work

[13:46] herman Bergson: System existed already before Green Cars :-)

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and here it is against the law

[13:47] herman Bergson: to rent a car, Gemma????

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): except in one state

[13:47] CB Axel: lol

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   ,.·^*'´|'\            ,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·,  ,/ |'`*^·-, 

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |  \       ,·'       ,.·:*:·,        '`i      | 

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   |      ;          ':,:::,:·         ;      | 

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   :i - ·;i'`:,         ¯¯         ·´|  '   | 

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):  '|         '´         '|'i   `*:~· - ~^*'´    |   |       '`*·-, 

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|          ,.-:^:':'\:'`:;                   :;·:i  /`':^·.,     `'i 

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|..,.:'´              '\| '`*^~·:-:·~^*'´'|/            '`::.., | 

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '´:           ;:-·^*'´                              `'*^·:;-     :;·' 

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):       `·;:·'´                                                 '`^·:;·´ 

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): woman

[13:48] herman Bergson: What state are you talking about Gemma?

[13:48] CB Axel: OMG! I've rented cars. I feel so dirty now. LOL

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nevada

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: lol cb

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are brothels

[13:48] herman Bergson: interesting...

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): renting cars in red light district?

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): controlled by state law

[13:48] herman Bergson: but against the law???

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now I’m confused

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in all othr states yes

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): women bej

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): forget teh cars

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can rent a car in the red light district Bejiita, but it's ofte too crowded to drive there:)))

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the police spend a lot of time arresting the renters and the rentees

[13:49] herman Bergson: Ok...enough...lol

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: hahahah beertje

[13:49] herman Bergson: let us conclude for today...

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:49] herman Bergson: that nihilism is fun

[13:50] CB Axel: Well, that discussion took an odd turn today.

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:50] herman Bergson: because renting a car can be a sexy business :-)

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but was fun

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was thinking that too

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is supposed to do that

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles

[13:50] CB Axel: LOL, Herman.

[13:50] herman Bergson: especially in Nevada :-)

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:50] herman Bergson: SO let's all go to Nevada renting a car....who knows...

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to be here Tuesday but is sort of hard

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu next time then

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha ok

[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation...^_^

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:51] CB Axel: OK. See you all Tuesday. °͜°

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: thank you hermann

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): will see if tuesday i maybee have dinner with work, kickoff event

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not sure what day it was

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: ok Bejiita :-)

[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman & Class!

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu all ㋡

[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: thanks :)) good night !!

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Sleep well

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje

[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: gute nacht beertje .-))

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Ciska en Gute Nacht Bergie

[13:53] herman Bergson: Bussi Bergie :-)