656: An interesting conceptual issue.....

As I pointed out in the previous lecture altruism is really about helping others, 

   

the well-being of individuals should be the ultimate objective, which means that the altruist interests are as valuable as the interests of those he helps. 

   

This equivalence is created between the helper and those who are helped, making it essentially being something that is composed of individual good things and not something different from it.

   

It is all about the relation between individuals. But how relates altruism to for instance family or state.

   

We can do good to individuals, but we also can do good to a family as a whole and it may even be the case

   

that one of the members of the family isn’t pleased at all with our altruism. Yet the family as a whole seems to benefit from it.

   

For instance, a family is offered a new place to live, although one of the members actually hates to live in this new home.

   

How can we make sense of this peculiar situation? 

When Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister of Great Britain she once said: "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. " 

  

Given that she is not exactly known as a philosopher, this was a confident foray into the field 

  

strewn with thorny problems of ontology: the philosophical study of what it means when something exists.

   

Maybe she tried to say that only concrete observable, individual objects exist and that society is just some abstract term, that has no tangible existence.

   

Something like that, perhaps, but unfortunately she took a wrong turn by mentioning families too, for aren’t families just a group of individual persons?

  

This is a classic philosophical problem also old as philosophy itself. And we still run into this problem every day.

   

Suppose I meet someone here in SL and tell him (I guess you expected me to say “her” :-)), but I tell him, that I got a home here in SL.

   

Please can I see it, he  asks me. Sure and I teleport him to Wainscot. I show him my house, the lighthouse, the lecture hall, everything….

    

Then my guest says… wow cool…. but where is your HOME? I saw your house, lighthouse and so on, but your home, where is it?

   

Maybe my guest gets angry about it and begins taking apart everything here. Yet when he is finished,

   

I say: “You can do whatever you like, but this just is and will always be MY HOME.”

    

When a family has a lot of children and one of the children dies, the family still exists, we would say.

    

As I said in the beginning, what is good for the family, might be bad for one of its members. Yet we primarily (want to) do good to the family .

    

Like altruism, the helping of individuals in need, is a value in life, can make it meaningful, helping  a family has to be too.

    

But to understand the difference of altruism towards individuals and something abstract like a family or society,

   

we have to entangle this ontological conceptual riddle and solve it first……..

      

Thank you for your attention… ^_^

The Discussion

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I agree with Bejiita :)

[13:22] herman Bergson: The problem here is, that it seems that a family or a state seems to be something "more" than just a collection of individuals

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's the connection I guess

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): might be

[13:23] herman Bergson: put in other words.....

[13:24] herman Bergson: individual persons are real tangible and observable "objects"

[13:24] herman Bergson: IS a family too?

[13:24] herman Bergson: And if it is...WHAT do we see as an object?

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yet we all take care of a family in need

[13:25] CB Axel: It can be real and observable, but it can also change, like when one member dies.

[13:25] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:25] herman Bergson: and when only one is left...is it still a family?

[13:25] CB Axel: In memory only

[13:25] herman Bergson: or just a single person who lost his family

[13:27] herman Bergson: so what we have to find out is in what sense a family or state is more than a collection of individuals

[13:27] herman Bergson: DOn't worry...I'll reveal the solution next Tuesday :-)

[13:27] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:28] CB Axel: Oh, good.

[13:28] herman Bergson: but this is a very old philosophical problem.....

[13:28] CB Axel: It seems to me that a state is a collection of individuals who identify with the state.

[13:28] herman Bergson: that iis an interesting stement CB.....

[13:29] herman Bergson: it implies that the state is something different than a collection of individuals

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the Turkish identify themselves with turkey, even if they are born in the Netherlands

[13:30] herman Bergson: and that is what we tryto grasp now....what is this "extra"

[13:31] herman Bergson: Well just wait till next Tuesday and I'll come up with a reasonable explanation :-)

[13:31] CB Axel: The state is a group of individuals with the same goals, which is why we have conflict. The individuals don't always have the same goals.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess thats the case

[13:31] herman Bergson: indeed CB...

[13:32] CB Axel: I don't, and never have, understood nationalism.

[13:32] Joseph Bard (science24): same principles doesn't mean same goals

[13:32] CB Axel: I'm legally an American, but I had nothing to do with being American.

[13:33] CB Axel: I had no choice in where I was born.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Maybe as soon as you are threatened in your way of life, you will CB?

[13:33] CB Axel: And you're right, Joseph, but I don't think I have the same principles as many Americans.

[13:34] Joseph Bard (science24): yea, many :)

[13:34] Joseph Bard (science24): the majority makes the identity

[13:34] herman Bergson: well..Joseph...that could be questionable

[13:35] herman Bergson: I read an article in my newspaper about the increasing number of foreigners in our big cities....

[13:35] CB Axel: Herman, I think the world won't learn to get along until we're threatened by an outside force such as an alien invasion. :_

[13:35] CB Axel: :)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:35] herman Bergson: even so much that the "whites" ....the Dutch become a minority in that city

[13:36] herman Bergson: I am still waiting for that too CB :-)

[13:36] herman Bergson: But it is a Dutch city and the Dutch are a minority.....

[13:36] CB Axel: Then we will realize that we are all human and not Dutch or American or whatever.

[13:37] herman Bergson: what creates the identity?

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are all the same

[13:37] herman Bergson: No we are not unfortunately Bejiita :-)

[13:38] herman Bergson: ahh thus we get so such another abstract term......

[13:38] herman Bergson: mankind

[13:38] CB Axel: We are the same in that we need food, shelter, and safety.

[13:38] herman Bergson: I guess that is true CB

[13:38] herman Bergson: but the war already starts on how to get the shelter, food and safety

[13:39] Joseph Bard (science24): then, what makes us different ?

[13:39] herman Bergson: well....just look around Joseph....

[13:39] herman Bergson: we try to save mankind from a climate change.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: and yet we are not in agreement on it

[13:40] herman Bergson: We even have a Trump who cancels any actions to save us

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he thinks its all a bluff

[13:40] Joseph Bard (science24): in our heart of hearts  , we are

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that you can pollute as much you want without anything happening

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats really problematic way of thinking

[13:41] herman Bergson: It sounds nice Joseph, but it sounds like poetry to a philosopher too

[13:41] Joseph Bard (science24): he is brainless

[13:42] CB Axel: He is greedy.

[13:42] herman Bergson: Amazing what you can achieve without brains :-))

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree Joseph, at least he would be better off at an asylum then in the white house

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just don’t get his crazy ideas at all

[13:43] herman Bergson: Ok...before we sail off again into  these issues....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Let's postpone it to next Tuesday whenI will clarify our conceptual problem

[13:44] Joseph Bard (science24): :)

[13:44] CB Axel: That sounds good.

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: So....thank you all again for your participation...:-)

[13:44] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:44] Joseph Bard (science24): thank you Herman :)

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time

[13:44] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you

655: What to do next with altruism...?

It is a pity, that altruism can not be the meaning of life, if it were only to annoy Ayn Rand. Yet helping people as a meaning of life sounds good.

   

But imagine, when helping people is the purpose of our life, what do we do when all people are helped?

   

In helping others it is about to meet the needs of people, but as provided herein, there are no further altruistic deeds necessary. 

  

This is no problem for those who think that it   eventually is about delivering relief of the needs of people. 

   

But if the actual process of helping others is our primary goal, we are in the strange situation, 

   

that if we could help others too well, we risk to make life further pointless. If altruism would be successful, we would have lost our meaning of life that very moment.

   

When Simon and Garfunkel sang in 1966 “I am a rock. I am an island” we all understood, that it was the expression of an emotion,

  

which had everything to do with the fact, that we are social beings, living together. But as an island we prefer to feel no pain and wish never to cry.

  

But although Ayn Rand tried to make us believe we are rocks and islands, we are social beings. We have to deal with each other and actual needs.

  

This is a factual inevitability and in that sense though altruism may not be the sole meaning of our life, at least it is a part of this meaning.

   

Certainly, many people find that life is indeed more meaningful by helping others 

  

and that is the only undisputed goal for altruism: to improve the lives of others.

  

When we free someone from poverty, make his children go to school  and improve their  situation, we say that it is good.

   

We think that living such a life is good. Maybe the meaning of life is living our life here and now to the full.

   

The fact that being altruistic creates in us good feelings instead of feelings of self-negation or self-destruction according to Ayn Rand,

    

must be related to the fact that we are no rocks or islands or selfish individuals, but social beings.

  

I dare say, that for most of us life becomes more complete, when we are not solely occupied with ourselves and our self-interest.

   

For most people, social activity is essential to feel good. One of the reasons why some people think that helping others is the source of the meaning of life,

  

is also almost certainly the truth, that concern for and involvement in relation to other people are other important components of a meaningful life.

   

This concern for the other sometimes even means that we are willing to sacrifice our life for it.

   

Giving up his own life so that others have a chance at a full life is a sacrifice, but a sacrifice that may be based on the simple premise 

  

that a good and full life, free from suffering itself is well regarded as worthwhile whether it's for their own life or that of someone else.

  

Altruism is not the source of the meaning of life, but at least a requirment for living a meaningful life.

   

Thank you for your attention… ^_^

  

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

Julian Baggini, What's It All About? Philosophy and the Meaning of Life (2004)  

Richard David Precht, Wer bin ich, und wenn ja, wie viele? (2007)

The Discussion

[13:31] CB Axel: :)

[13:31] CB Axel: I'm just thinking.

[13:31] herman Bergson: ok :-)

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think being altruistic is a part of life

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not the full meaning of life for me

[13:32] herman Bergson: As I said today indeed Beertje...

[13:32] herman Bergson: No...

[13:32] CB Axel: Helping others is nice, but giving without ever receiving in return gets tiresome.

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the full meaning is much more complex

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess so

[13:33] herman Bergson: It is not the helping that counts but the needs of the others....

[13:34] herman Bergson: It means..we ar enot focused on the process of helping but on the needs of others

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): receiving help is difficult , it's an art to accept help

[13:35] herman Bergson: it can be a complex issue these days....

[13:35] herman Bergson: Example....

[13:36] herman Bergson: a (group of ) people is abused by those in power and this group suffers of famine....

[13:36] herman Bergson: we...altruistic as we are send food to those who are hungry.....

[13:37] herman Bergson: this means that those who caused the famine stay in their comfortable places and can go on using the hungry group for their ends

[13:37] herman Bergson: altruism focusses on the needs of others...

[13:38] herman Bergson: and in such a situation I would say...

[13:38] herman Bergson: not the hunger is the need of this people but the extermination of those n power is

[13:38] CB Axel: That's what I was thinking. Kill the rich. LOL

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true, but in the meantime little children die

[13:39] herman Bergson: so how should we help in such a situation?

[13:39] CB Axel: Kill the rich and feed them to the hungry children?

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:39] herman Bergson: they also die when we stop supplying food Beertje...not when we kill those in power

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know Herman

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): food will  go to the rich

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not to the poor

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but then those greedy bastards wont take all the food for themselves at least, just look at Kim jong, he stuffs his face while the rest starve to death

[13:40] herman Bergson: and black market...yes

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita

[13:41] herman Bergson: He got a rather puffy face :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: lots of rice went in there.....I guess

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit too much even

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not only rice

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how can we change the world?

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can that ever been done?

[13:43] herman Bergson: Bu tmy point is....altruism ok....but we have to clearly define WHAT are the real needs of people in need.....

[13:43] CB Axel: We'll never rid the world of human greed, I'm afraid.

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): freedom is needed

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): education

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): respect

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: so inrelation to the lecture of today and the meaning of life....

[13:44] herman Bergson: the next step is ...politics....

[13:44] CB Axel: Oh, please don't tell me the meaning of life is politics!

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he doesn't

[13:45] herman Bergson: might be that politics is part of the meaning of life CB

[13:45] CB Axel: Well, it is probably the only way to help many people at once.

[13:45] herman Bergson: you can discuss altruism from an individual point of view to begin with....

[13:46] herman Bergson: indeed CB....that is what I mean...

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are we talking of the meaning of life of humans or all living creatures?

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well seems you all seem to agree on the fact that altruism can make life meaningful to some extend....????

[13:48] CB Axel: A world with nothing on it but human beings would not have meaning to me.

[13:49] herman Bergson: That is a typical example of philosophical thinking CB...:-)

[13:50] herman Bergson: We can discuss the consequences of such a world for hours...and all its implications..

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess so

[13:50] herman Bergson: But..there doesnt exist such a world for us....so why the debate

[13:50] herman Bergson: but philosophers LOVE it.....

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:51] herman Bergson: they even invented a word for it...Thought experiment....:-)

[13:51] CB Axel: :)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): think of it CB, not a wasp in your limonade

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or how you call that beast?

[13:52] CB Axel: Wasp?

[13:52] CB Axel: Stinging insect?

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:52] herman Bergson: or a butterfly on your flowers in your garden....not even flowers..just you and a bold surface....

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i was trying to be positive:)

[13:53] CB Axel: I'll put up with the occasional wasp if it means I can have kittens, and bunnies, and puppies, and horses, and butterflies, and lots of flowers. :)

[13:53] herman Bergson: you can :-))

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and horseflies:)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: terrible idea.. a world with only people

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:54] CB Axel: Besides, if we got rid of every living thing except people we'd *have* to eat the rich. °͜°

[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes BErgie :-)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay, i will be last in the row

[13:54] herman Bergson: But a bunch of Bergies might be pleasant company yet :-)

[13:54] herman Bergson: on a bold world :-)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol

[13:55] herman Bergson: I guess I'd better send you out now into the world with more than people...:-)

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i need ma animals:-)

[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you again for your participation :-)

[13:56] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:56] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...:-)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time then

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :) thank you Herman

[13:56] CB Axel: I need to go back to my sl home full of animals.

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): need to get my parrot to bed

[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman & class!

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now

[13:57] CB Axel: Parrots need their sleep!

[13:57] CB Axel: Bye, everyone. See you Thursday.

[13:57] herman Bergson: My pleasure Bergie...:-)

654: The Meaning of Altruism....

When you drop the axiom “homo sapiens is primarily driven by selfishness” in the philosophical discourse

    

then it is logical, as Spock would say, that altruism is out of the question on this planet. It is contradictory to the goal of life,  which is to be selfish and thence shape your life.

   

However, as Spock would continue, who says that this is unquestionably true. Ayn Rand of course, but there is so much scientific evidence, 

   

which refutes this axiom, that you can dismiss it as a caricature of human existence, even when “Atlas shrugged” is even more popular than the Bible in the US.

   

Even primates and other animals, not gifted with the consciousness we have, show clear signs of altruism, 

  

showing behaviour where care for the other prevails over individual gain or profit. So, is this the meaning , the purpose of our life, to help eachother?

   

Sounds good, but it has a smell, for how altruistic is altruism, when it feels so good to  help someone else.

    

We love to experience that gratitude of the helped person and can even feel offended when he doesn’t show his gratitude.

   

The philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724 - 1804) was quite clear about this. When you’re altruistic because it makes you feel good.

  

then helping the other is not the goal, but just a personal means to feel good. And that is not good. Your fellow man may never be a means to an end.

   

So, the urge to help the other must be felt as a moral obligation, an obligation you can not deny, independent of your personal feelings.

   

I think, however, that this is an equally sterile and cerebral way of looking at the organism “homo sapiens” as we saw with Ayn Rand.

   

Why does anyone need help? There are two reasons we have to help people. One is that they suffer from a shortage of something 

  

that we think their situation is thus reduced to a level below that of subsistence. This is the case when we help those who are sick, hungry or living in poverty.

   

The second reason is that we want to help people who may have just enough recourses to make more of their lives. 

  

This may be because we have more than we need and can understand that a little of our wealth, companionship or expertise can be  much more to others than it is worth for us.

   

Whether we feel good about helping is not really relevant in these situations. When I feel that living in hunger is bad for me,

   

then I can only conclude that this has to be bad for everyone else too. When living in comfortable circumstances feels good to me,

   

I only can conclude that it will feel good for everybody. Our morality isn’t based on feeling good by helping others,

   

but it is based on a kind of recognition of the equality between me and my fellow men. We share the same needs, the same joy, the same sorrow.

    

This leads to an interesting observation. Helping others can not be the purpose of life clearly, because helping others is only a means to an end.

  

We help others not primarily because the activity of helping others in itself is good, 

  

but because it is good for people to liberate them from their misery or improving their quality of life.

   

And if life needs a meaning, then it is not in helping others as such, but in the consequences of our actions.

   

Thank you for your attention… ^_^

   

The Discussion

[13:20] Joseph Bard (science24): Why do we have to  feel offended when someone doesn't show his gratitude for help ?

[13:20] Joseph Bard (science24): do we feel *

[13:20] herman Bergson: we dont have to Joseph....some people do

[13:21] Joseph Bard (science24): yea, why do they feel so ?

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think people feel used when someone doesn't say thank you

[13:21] CB Axel: Used. That's a good way of putting it, Beertje.

[13:21] herman Bergson: Because their helping doesn’t bring them their feelg good experience caused by the gratefulness of the other

[13:22] herman Bergson: That is the other side of the medal Beertje....indeed

[13:22] Joseph Bard (science24): but if it is a goal for us here to help others, no need to feel offended , because it is  a step to reach that goel

[13:23] herman Bergson: in a way yes, but we are still humans....

[13:23] Joseph Bard (science24): that's the point

[13:23] CB Axel: Maybe people who feel that way think the meaning of life is to feel good and not to help others.

[13:24] CB Axel: Helping is a means to the end of feeling good.

[13:24] herman Bergson: The issue here is that altruism isn't focused on helping others, but on the consequences of the help we give

[13:24] Joseph Bard (science24): exactly CB

[13:24] Joseph Bard (science24): so it is a bit selfish ?

[13:24] Joseph Bard (science24): isn't it

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes indeed.....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:24] CB Axel: But people are selfish. °͜°

[13:25] herman Bergson: Some others help to clear their conscious....

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are not all Mother Theresa :)

[13:25] herman Bergson: give money  for the poor for instance....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if we all helped out the world would indeed be a  better place

[13:25] herman Bergson: That's the point Beertje

[13:26] herman Bergson: IN FACT IT WOULD BEJIITA...

[13:26] herman Bergson: oops

[13:26] CB Axel: And some help others to get themselves into heaven which is what give their life meaning.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the selfish problem can clearly be seen in that less then 50 people own over 50 % of all the worlds money

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and refuse to share

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): large companies drain contries of rsources and use the people as slaves or even murder them

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful stuff

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a really big problem

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we need to share more between us in general

[13:28] herman Bergson: It is the Animal Farm problem.....

[13:28] Joseph Bard (science24): the strongest will survive :(

[13:28] herman Bergson: As I said morality starts with assuming that all men are eaqual.....have equal needs and so on....

[13:28] herman Bergson: But as the rule was in "Animal Farm"

[13:29] herman Bergson: All animals are equal but pigs are more equal

[13:29] herman Bergson: so they took everything for themselves

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thats why we call greedy bastards pigs

[13:29] CB Axel: That's what makes them pigs. :)

[13:30] CB Axel: ^5

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:30] herman Bergson: It still puzzles me.....

[13:31] herman Bergson: some people possess so much that even in 10 lifetimes they will not be able to spend all their money

[13:31] herman Bergson: But now I realize...it is not about money...but about power.....people love to control.....

[13:31] CB Axel: Exactly.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:32] herman Bergson: We are still far away from the conviction that all men are equal and have equal rights

[13:33] herman Bergson: Maybe realizing this equality of man is part of a meaning of life...

[13:34] CB Axel: Trump may have more money than all of us here put together, but to me he is worthless. Money doesn't give a man worth, in my opinion. Being kind, generous, and fair is what I value.

[13:34] herman Bergson: but here again it is philosophy....a cerebral product....

[13:34] herman Bergson: we have this observation that in the group some are better than others....

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also Trump is a REALLY BIG GREEDY PIG, he thinks he is good because he is rich and think all others can go screw themselves

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that’s how many of these types are

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): power crazy and think they are something because they are rich when in reality everyone hates him

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): being like that is no good thing

[13:35] herman Bergson: based on what you have achieved you feel to be better , a bette rperosn than others

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I can't imagine, that Trump will say that man are all equal

[13:36] herman Bergson: He already have said the opposite, Beertje :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he will say all rich men are equal

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or maybe not even that, i just know i don’t like that pig

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he stand for everything bad

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greed, hate, racism and so on

[13:37] herman Bergson: Not everybody  (in the US) will agree with you Bejiita

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it his character or his money?

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well many seem to support hom

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i think he is scary

[13:38] CB Axel: His money is his character.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is so full of himself

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe I should be glad that I don't have money:)

[13:39] herman Bergson: Ok..altruism is wasted on him, I guess

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well if i would be rich i certanely would not be like that

[13:39] CB Axel: Breathable air is wasted on him.

[13:40] herman Bergson: That too CB....

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but sore some people having lot of money does something

[13:40] Joseph Bard (science24): the first thing he did in just few weeks after getting in the white house , is stropping EPA to communicate with public media , EPA is the scientific agency that reported the VW scandal , ( it is all about money )

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are there leaders of countries who realy take care of their people?

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, especially since we soon will have no breathable air anymore if he continues with his wishes about increasing burning of oil and coal

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to him the china smog is a made up myth

[13:41] Joseph Bard (science24): and he said, the US will revise its agreement on the paris agreement ( climate )

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i bet the moonlanding is too

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: no not moon landing bejiita - America first ;)

[13:42] Joseph Bard (science24): even nature and climate will suffer from those greedy pigs , not only ppl

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: he would not deny that

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...I guess we should return to the more philosophical issues here and leave Mr. T Mr. T

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing we can conclude, and that is that trump is NOT the helpful type but the total opposite of that

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we need more helpful people

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): together we can solve a lot of the problems in the world

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): isn't the meaning of life not different for everybody

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): meaning of life or not

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): for me it is not the same as for you maybe?

[13:44] Joseph Bard (science24): the meaning of life is making the word a better place together :)

[13:44] Joseph Bard (science24): and here where help come in

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Which means we should not die of famine....

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why should we make the world better? it was perfect in the beginning

[13:44] herman Bergson: there should be food for everyone on this earth...in equal shares

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we made a mess of it

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ok Beertje...

[13:45] Joseph Bard (science24): good could be better Beertje :)

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): good is good enough for me

[13:46] herman Bergson: then I'll give you a whole weekend to think this over and come up with suggetsions to give life a better meaning.....homework :-))

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): more homework..oh my !!!

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehee

[13:46] herman Bergson: SO..thank you all for your participation again :-)

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:46] Joseph Bard (science24): no one will solve it from a psychophysical point of view ;)

   

653: Is Altruism an option.... ?

Many years ago there was a popular musical like TV-show on Dutch TV and one of the songs which became a classic had the chorus:

    

“We benne op de wereld om mekaar, om mekaar te helpen niet waar?” which means “We are on earth  to help each other, aren’t we?”

  

When it is hard to find a meaning or purpose of live beyond or outside our life, maybe we should look at the life itself we life.

   

And then a lot of people will say, that what life gives meaning to them is, that they can mean something for someone else by being altruistic.

    

So, we can ask ourselves the question if altruism can be the source of a meaning of life.

  

Let’s check the Ayn Rand Lexicon: “What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, 

  

that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.

  

Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. 

   

The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice—which means; self-immolation, self-abnegation, 

   

self-denial, self-destruction—which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

  

(…)The issue is whether the need of others is the first mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. 

  

The issue is whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem will answer: “No.” Altruism says: “Yes.”

   

So far the the Rand Lexicon. Looks like we can forget altruism as a meaningful feature of life.

  

But Rand creates her own rightness, by equating “altruism” with “self-sacrifice”, but it is good philosophical practice 

    

to ask the question “What do you mean by…?” and then you can question a definition of a term someone proposes.

   

Helping your neighbour would be a case of self-denial, self-destruction even? When I do not feel it that way,

   

there are two options: either I lack the proper insight in life according to Ayn Rand, or she is just beyond (my) reality, common sense and how we experience life.

   

For I have to wonder…is something wrong with me for being altruistic. In RL I am a “language coach”. I spend an hour a week teaching a foreigner 

   

who has come to the Netherlands, to master the Dutch language. I do not get paid. It costs me more than an hour every time and I feel good about it.

   

Nowhere is a feeling of self-sacrifice, let alone of self-denial or even self-destruction. On the contrary, I really feel good about it.

    

This could mean that by helping others I bring some entertainment and fun in my private existence, 

  

and I participate in the higher purpose of helping those who are outside the private sphere. 

   

But if helping others is the source of meaning for my life, is the help not just a means to help myself to a meaningful life?

Thank you for your attention... ^_^

The Discussion

[13:23] Anske Beattie:                 *•.¸('*•.¸ ❤ ¸.•*´)¸.•*

[13:23] Anske Beattie:             .•*❤¨`•APPLAUSE•´¨`❤*•.

[13:23] Anske Beattie:                 ¸.•*(¸.•*´ ❤ `*•.¸)`*•.¸ 

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) ♪♥♪APPLAUDS!!!♪♥♪

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice

[13:23] herman Bergson smiles

[13:24] Anske Beattie: but you are totaly right Herman!  nothing better than to help others!

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can it be both Herman, helping another and in the meantime gfeeling good about yourself?

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:24] CB Axel: I would never go to Ayn Rand to find a meaning to life.

[13:24] herman Bergson: of course it can, Beertje.....

[13:25] herman Bergson laughs

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:25] Anske Beattie: my friend arrived in meantime ;-)

[13:25] herman Bergson: good choice, CB, but she is the Bible of America it seems :-)

[13:25] herman Bergson: I noticed Anske ^_^

[13:25] Anske Beattie: I knew ;-)

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Ayn Rand gives me the shivers

[13:25] DutchVoyager: hi every body

[13:25] Anske Beattie: welcome Dutchy!

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Hallo Dutch

[13:25] CB Axel: From what I heard, Rand was a heartless bitch who felt that the meaning of life was to accumulate great wealth while destroying everyone else.

[13:26] CB Axel: This is why I hate America.

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of that Cb yes

[13:26] herman Bergson: ISnt that the American dream, CB?

[13:26] CB Axel: It's not mine.

[13:26] herman Bergson: But I agree CB...she was a heartless bitch...

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Ayn rand = the queen of greed and selfishness

[13:26] CB Axel: I'd love lots of money, but not at the expense of others.

[13:27] CB Axel: When I do get money, I tend to use it to help others.

[13:27] herman Bergson: her definition of atruism was utterly nonsense.....but people loved it

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa same here, thats good thinking

[13:27] CB Axel: And still do, Herman.

[13:27] Joseph Bard (science24): but do you work to earn money to spend it on others ?

[13:28] herman Bergson: There we got  a point Joseph....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Why do we help others???

[13:28] CB Axel: No. I work for a few luxuries, like eating and sleeping indoors.

[13:28] Anske Beattie: you can help others too.. not only by giving them money.. but attention will do great too

[13:28] CB Axel: Very true, Anske.

[13:28] herman Bergson: for instance by giving them the money we earned ourselves

[13:29] herman Bergson: dont focus on the money....

[13:29] Joseph Bard (science24): by being generous

[13:29] CB Axel: I guess I'm happiest when the people around me are happy.

[13:29] herman Bergson: it also can be spent time for instance....like I do

[13:29] Anske Beattie: right CB

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same for me

[13:30] herman Bergson: so ...is altruism good or bad and why is our question

[13:30] herman Bergson: Rand is clear about it...it is BAD

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well id say it seems 100 % good

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and Rand is insane

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:31] herman Bergson: but what when it cost your life, Bejiita?

[13:31] CB Axel: Altruism is good; Rand is bad.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how can it do that?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Simple...

[13:32] herman Bergson: your country is attacked and you are one of the defenders....

[13:32] Joseph Bard (science24): to defend your children ?

[13:32] herman Bergson: your family is attacked and you try to stop the criminals

[13:32] CB Axel: Well, if there is no meaning of life then dying isn't a big deal.

[13:32] herman Bergson: no...is a freebie CB :-)

[13:33] Joseph Bard (science24): yea, but could we call it Altruism  in this case ?

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes...I'd say so...

[13:33] herman Bergson: you help others to survive, risking your own life

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I see

[13:34] Joseph Bard (science24): but  as CB said

[13:34] Anske Beattie: how far can one go?

[13:34] Joseph Bard (science24): maybe others weren't my driving force

[13:34] herman Bergson: but the main question is.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: does altruism offer us the source of a meaning of life?

[13:35] CB Axel: I don't think so.

[13:35] Joseph Bard (science24): for me it won't

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe partly but there are other things as well

[13:35] herman Bergson: why are we here....just to help each other?...is that the answer?

[13:35] CB Axel: It's just a nice thing to do while plodding along through life.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just one thing of many

[13:35] Anske Beattie: it is a part of our life

[13:36] herman Bergson: I agree CB :-)

[13:36] Joseph Bard (science24): we not living for it

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Anske...at least it is that....part of the meaning of life...

[13:36] herman Bergson: No Joseph....indeed

[13:36] Anske Beattie: wich one is most important to you.. it depends

[13:38] herman Bergson: Ok...next stage will be to figure out in what sense altruism can be at least a part of the meaning of life...

[13:38] herman Bergson: I guess one thing is clear so far....

[13:39] herman Bergson: if we want to find a meaning we have to look at the very life we live itself

[13:39] herman Bergson listens to the loud silence of his audience :-)

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i thought i crashed:)

[13:40] herman Bergson: I guess you ran out of questions and remarks :-)

[13:40] Anske Beattie: we are just flabbergasted Herman ;-)

[13:40] Anske Beattie: I was giving you my thinkings ;-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: DOn't think of crashing Beertje....just do it :-))))

[13:41] herman Bergson: It is fun to revive again unharmed

[13:41] herman Bergson: goodness..lol..she crashed indeed

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:41] Joseph Bard (science24): just do it ;)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Well...before you alll crash.....

[13:42] herman Bergson: thank you for your participation again :-)

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone:               ♥(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ * ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)♥

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone:   «´·.¸¸.•     WELCOME BACK!     •.¸¸.·`»

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone:               ♥(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ * `'·.¸)`'·.¸)♥ 

[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:42] Anske Beattie: thanks so much for your class Herman!

[13:42] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again ㋡

[13:42] Joseph Bard (science24): thank you

[13:42] DutchVoyager: Thanks Herman

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oops sorry

[13:42] herman Bergson: hello Beertje ^_^

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu next time

[13:42] Anske Beattie: wb Beertje ;-))

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡