672: The Biology of Consciousness

"How do brain processes cause consciousness?" is philosophically a tricky question. 

  

Many philosophers and even some scientists think that the relation cannot be causal, because a causal relation between brain and consciousness    

  

seems to them to imply some version of dualism of brain and consciousness, which they want to reject on other grounds.

   

We know what a brain is, but do we exactly know what consciousness is? Let’s give a common sense definition of the term:

   

"consciousness" refers to those states of sentience and awareness that typically begin when we awake from a dreamless sleep 

   

and continue until we go to sleep again, or fall into a coma or die or otherwise become "unconscious."

   

By this definition a system is either conscious or it isn't, but within the field of consciousness there are states of intensity ranging from drowsiness to full awareness. 

   

Consciousness so defined is an inner, first-person, qualitative phenomenon. Humans and higher animals are obviously conscious.

    

You should not confused consciousness with the special case of self-consciousness. Most conscious states, feeling a pain, for example, do not necessarily involve self-consciousness.

  

Here comes this special concept of a Self into play. Consciousness as such, however, does not necessarily imply self-consciousness or self-awareness.

    

Now let’s look at probably the most famous problem with consciousness.

   

In the seventeenth century Descartes made a sharp distinction between the physical reality described by science 

  

and the mental reality of the soul, which he considered to be outside the scope of scientific research. 

   

This dualism of conscious mind and unconscious matter was useful in the scientific research of the time, 

   

both because it helped to get the religious authorities off scientists' backs and because the physical world was mathematically treatable in a way that the mind did not seem to be.

   

But this places consciousness outside the realm of the physical world, although it is common knowledge nowadays , that the physical brain causes consciousness.

  

In my view we have to abandon dualism and start with the assumption that consciousness is an ordinary biological phenomenon comparable with growth or digestion.

   

However, if brain processes cause consciousness, then it seems to many people that there must be two different things, 

  

brain processes as causes and conscious states as effects, and this seems to imply dualism again.

   

In our official theories of causation we typically suppose that all causal relations must be between discrete events ordered sequentially in time. For example, throwing stones cause broken windows. 

  

Certainly, many cause-and-effect relations are like that, but by no means all. Look around you at the objects in your vicinity 

  

and think of the causal explanation of the fact that the table exerts pressure on the rug. This is explained by the force of gravity, but gravity is not an event. 

  

Or think of the solidity of the table. It is explained causally by the behavior of the molecules of which the table is composed. But the solidity of the table is not an extra event; it is just a feature of the table.

Such examples of non-event causation give us appropriate models for understanding the relation between my present state of consciousness and the underlying neurobiological processes that cause it. 

  

Lower-level processes in the brain cause my present state of consciousness, but that state is not a separate entity from my brain; rather it is just a feature of my brain at the present time.

   

So, basically the idea is: throw a bunch of molecules together and the resulting substance becomes the cause  of emerging features. That is something like, brain cells are put together and become conscious and even self-conscious.

   

Thank you for your attention …^_^

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

John Searle: The Mystery of Consciousness (1997)
Antonio Damasio: Self comes to Mind (2010)
L.de Bruin/F. Jongepier/ S.de Maargt: IK, Filosofie van het Zelf (2017)

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: You may relax now :-)

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:18] herman Bergson: BAsic idea is that brain and consciousness are not two seperate things

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing causes the other

[13:19] herman Bergson: consciousness is the result of the configuration of our braincells

[13:19] CB Axel: I noticed that both you, Herman, and Dr. Damasio speak of regaining consciousness after a dreamless sleep. Does that mean that when we are dreaming, that's considered conscious?

[13:19] herman Bergson: a special kind of..yes

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is like a computer where the hardware is the brain and the consciousness is the currently running software at the moment

[13:20] CB Axel: I think my software needs an update.

[13:20] CB Axel: Maybe the hardware, too.

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:20] herman Bergson: We'll get to that later Bejiita, but this computer analogy is questionable

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): brain cells are thrown together

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): likes that part

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example my computer is now "conscious" of second life but not of Unity for example cause while it is on the drive i have it not running on the cpu and in memory at the moment

[13:21] herman Bergson: We love to compare a brain with a computer......but it is a questionable analogy

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like you can have stuff in the brain you are not concious of at the moment until you come to think of it

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): remembering stuff

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are indeed different but it is pretty close

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): strange that braincells in a jar can never be concious

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): although they are braincells

[13:22] herman Bergson: We'll discuss The Chinese Room argument of John Searle next time Bejiita...you'll love it ^_^

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however the term electronic brain is not really a good name for a computer, this is what they were known as at the time of Eniac and other of the very first machines like this

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa ok

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think they all need the body to work together beertje

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje, but that is just a technical matter....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): computer means literarily calculator which is how a computer does all its work

[13:23] herman Bergson: We have discovered why H2O molecules become rigid stuff due to below zero temperatures

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): al is math

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): forget the computer bej

[13:24] herman Bergson: we can cause it....predict it, explain it, reproduce it...

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, everything have properties

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we have been doing all this for centuries

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bck to the neanderthal

[13:25] herman Bergson: we do not know so much in detail about brain cells, but it is thinkable that one day we do....

[13:25] herman Bergson: and maybe then the cells in your jar will say Hello to you Beertje ^_^

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing stuff

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe they will do that:)

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there are a lot we dont know yet but hopefully we will soon

[13:26] herman Bergson: The idea to treat consciousness as a biological feature of the brain is an idea of John Searle

[13:26] herman Bergson: We still have a long long way to go however...

[13:27] herman Bergson: our neurobiological knowledge is limited still

[13:27] CB Axel: So consciousness is a function of the brain the way excreting insulin is a function of the pancreas?

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh goodness

[13:27] herman Bergson: In a way, yes CB

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting

[13:28] herman Bergson: That is a way science looks at it at the present

[13:28] herman Bergson: but there still are dualists

[13:29] herman Bergson: Among scientists and philosophers...

[13:29] herman Bergson: Eccles, Penrose, Chamler (if I spell that last name correctly)

[13:30] herman Bergson: But I find the biological approach most promising

[13:30] Athwale: Chalmer

[13:31] herman Bergson: Ahh thnx Athwale....Chalmer....

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why promising?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Because it opens the gates to testable hypotheses....

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): real science

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah¨

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: like we can find out why molecules stop moving due to temperature, we may find out how the electricity of the braincells create consciousness

[13:33] herman Bergson: consciousness is just that our sensory machines are turned on...

[13:33] herman Bergson: when asleep they are turned off :-)

[13:34] CB Axel: Not always during sleep.

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): That is interesting ... when mountain climbers talk about loosing abilities to think well when they are high up and cold

[13:34] herman Bergson: no...

[13:34] CB Axel: I often have dreams that are influenced by sounds around me.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed it can depend

[13:35] CB Axel: That's right, Gemma. Brain cells need to have warmth to work well.

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes CB....somehow sounds can be registered…even under anaesthesia....or what do you call that condition

[13:35] CB Axel: And the right nutrients and pH.

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another strange thing that can be a bit scary if you dont know what it is is being awake and not being able to move, sleep paralysis i think it is called, it is some form of protective muscle shut down and basically the brain have not turned on the muscles yet at the moment you awake

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): first time it feels really strange but it only lasts a very short time

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and not very common

[13:36] CB Axel: I've had that happen, Bejiita.

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t see any scientist on top of mount Everest to study that fo ra while

[13:38] herman Bergson: Any questions or remarks left? :-)

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinking too hard

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have to think about this subject

[13:38] herman Bergson: Then, next time we might discuss why the brain is NOT a computer ^_^

[13:38] CB Axel: I need to read the Damasio book I have.

[13:38] herman Bergson: If it were only to tease Bejiita ^_^

[13:38] CB Axel: LOL

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh let us know cb

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if you make it all the way

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well a computer can not feel

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but we can

[13:39] herman Bergson: Which one CB?

[13:39] CB Axel: I have to start sleeping better before I can tackle it.

[13:39] CB Axel: I can't concentrate well.

[13:39] herman Bergson: Self comes to Mind?

[13:39] CB Axel: Yes. That's the one.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me as well, been a LOT of stuff today, more then first planned

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but all went well

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really tired now though

[13:40] CB Axel: See. I couldn't even concentrate on the title let alone the content. °͜°

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: Take your time CB, books are patient friends

[13:40] CB Axel: Yes, they are! °͜°

[13:40] CB Axel: And I have a ton of books I haven't read yet.

[13:41] CB Axel: And I hear of more and more I'd like to read.

[13:41] herman Bergson: They'll wait for you CB....np

[13:41] CB Axel: I think I'll go to one of our city parks and read there for awhile.

[13:41] herman Bergson: I spend more time on reading  myself these days.....

[13:42] CB Axel: That's one of my favorite things to do.

[13:42] herman Bergson: Books in stead of screens

[13:42] CB Axel: I read my books on a screen. My Kindle. °͜°

[13:42] herman Bergson: Kind of rediscovering the experience :-)

[13:42] CB Axel: I have such a short attention span that I like to be able to switch from book to book.

[13:43] CB Axel: If I carried around all the books I'm reading now, I'd injure myself. LOL

[13:43] herman Bergson: I am reading in at least 4 books at this time...:-)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i used to have two or three books going at a time

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you can borrow my forklift cb

[13:43] herman Bergson: Damasio, Dennet and two Dutch authors

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] CB Axel: LOL. Thank you, bejiita.

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't have much time to read with a toddler in the house:)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): speaking of that i need to take some time rearange the storage area at work tomorrow cause even its alm at moment the place is a mess and have no idea how to rearrange everything

[13:44] CB Axel: Read to the toddler. °͜°

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least i have plenty of time to do it

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): read anything to the toddler

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes i do that:) Woezel and Pip

[13:45] herman Bergson: Very nice and exciting Beertje :-))

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] herman Bergson: Let me thank you all again for your participation and see you nexr Thursday.....^_^

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa cu then ㋡

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to make it on time Thursday

[13:47] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. See you all on Thursday.

[13:47] Athwale: thank you Herman

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now

[13:47] herman Bergson: I'll keep my fingers crossed Gemma :-)

671: The Mystery of Consciousness

Before we jump on the self, we first might ask the question, where our self comes from. What is it in us that experiences this self or generates it?

    

The answer seems quite obvious. It is our mind that does the trick, that generates the faculty to look at itself. 

   

And, of course, that mind or consciousness is generated by the brain. Seems all quite clear.

  

“ We find consciousness obvious, says the well known neuroscientist Antonio Damasio (2010), because it is so available,

  

so easy to use , so stylish in its appearing and disappearing and yet we face a mystery, when we think about it. What is consciousness made of? ”

   

The most important problem in the biological sciences is one that until quite recently many scientists did not regard consciousness as a suitable subject for scientific investigation at all. 

   

It is this, according to John Searle (1997): How exactly do neurobiological processes in the brain cause consciousness? 

  

The enormous variety of stimuli that affect us, for example, when we taste wine, look at the sky, smell a rose, listen to a concert,

   

trigger sequences of neurobiological processes that eventually cause unified, well-ordered, coherent, inner, subjective states of awareness or sentience. 

   

Now what exactly happens between the assault of the stimuli on our receptors and the experience of consciousness, 

  

and how exactly do the intermediate processes cause the conscious states?  

  

But this is not only about perceptual cases. Also feelings, worries, itches and experiences of ecstasy are caused by brain processes.

   

As far as we know the relevant processes take place at the microlevels of synapses, neurons, neuron columns, and cell assemblies. 

   

All of our conscious life is caused by these lower-level processes, but we have only the foggiest idea of how it all works.

   

But this is said to be caused by the brain only. That is a material object full of biochemistry. So, you might ask, 

   

why don't the relevant specialists get on with it and figure out how it works? Why should it be any harder than finding out the causes of cancer?

   

There are some difficulties here. By current estimate, the human brain has over 100 billion neurons, 

  

and each neuron has synaptic connections with other neurons ranging in number from a few hundred to many tens of thousands. 

  

All of this enormously complex structure is massed together in a space smaller than a soccer ball. 

  

Furthermore, it is hard to work on the micro-elements in the brain without damaging them or killing the organism.

  

These are, you could say, just practical problems, which can be solved in some future. I assume that this will be the case indeed.

   

fMRI scanners are very crude instruments, if you compare them with an electron microscope. Maybe whole new instruments have to be developed to look deep into the brain.

  

In addition to the practical difficulties, there are several philosophical and theoretical obstacles and confusions that make it hard to pose and answer the right questions. 

  

For example, the common-sense way in which I have just pose the question, "How do brain processes cause consciousness?" is already philosophically loaded.   

   

We’ll look into that next Tuesday….Thank you for your attention ^_^

The Discussion

[13:25] .:    

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: I feel the need to quote doug adams

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: shall i?

[13:26] herman Bergson: plz do

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: “If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a non-working cat.” ― Douglas Adams

[13:27] CB Axel nods

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess that would be the case indeed

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: that came to mind during your last part ...

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: I strongly doubt that we will be able to really understand whats going on

[13:28] CB Axel: Also, it's hard to study our own brains using the brains we have.

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: because when we take things apart - something else does happen with the material

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb

[13:28] herman Bergson: That is an interesting remark Ciska...for there is no real argument to support that view

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: no?

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: for example

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so they have to study the brain material without taking it apart

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: when you make brain scans

[13:29] herman Bergson: I would say no indeed :-))

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: well there is this example with the guys who are scanned while using a race simulator

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: their neurons fire but they do fire differently strong

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: when using it on different people

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: people who like racing

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: have different response then people who do not

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes..I understand...

[13:31] CB Axel: Kind of like how musicians brains work differently than non-musicians.

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess they get more excited

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: so the component which is different is the experience: I dislike or like something of the input I get

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the ones liking it

[13:31] herman Bergson: But that is not the issue...

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: well it is

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: because the firing of the neurons depends on it

[13:31] herman Bergson: that is just based on the tools and insights we have today...

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: well if we have different tools

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: the neurons will still fire more or less

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: that does not depend on the tools

[13:32] herman Bergson: we discover higgs particles....now...

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: well- so what?

[13:32] herman Bergson: in theory they were predicted...but we hadnt the tools to discover them

[13:33] herman Bergson: now we have....

[13:33] CB Axel: So you think that some day we will have tools that will help us find our selves?

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: yes  - we can see small things but we cannot see experiences...

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: thats my argument.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa

[13:33] herman Bergson: We didn’t know a thing about bacteria or viruses until we had the microscope

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:34] herman Bergson: ahh....

[13:34] herman Bergson: That is a good point indeed Ciska....

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: then .. the other thing I wonder is

[13:35] herman Bergson: Your argument is based on the dichotomy of what we use to cal "physical" and "mental"

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: and maybe time?

[13:35] CB Axel: But if our experiences add up to how our neurons interact with one another, we may be able to watch that interaction.

[13:35] herman Bergson: you can see physical things....but mental things you can not see

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb - there are some basic explainations of how the neuronal bridgebuilding works...

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same basically as electricity in a wire you can not see even if you xray it and thats all it is, electrical impulses going through us

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the only way to see electricity is to create a spark

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....good example

[13:37] herman Bergson: but there is more....

[13:37] herman Bergson: maybe we have to revise our terminology....

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but you can on the other hand measure electricity with for ex a multimeter and the same goes for brain waves

[13:38] herman Bergson: the dichotomy mental/physical is not an ontological fact  but a theoretical o construct

[13:38] CB Axel: Hi, Gemma.

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so I'm Sorry!

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: hiya gemma

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hi

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was sure i would be home on time but no

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is a game i have tried a few times called brainball where you put a helmet in and it can feel how relaed you are and the most relaxed person then makes the machine move a ball into the other more tense and focised persons goal

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): focused

[13:39] herman Bergson: I know it...

[13:39] CB Axel: Sounds like biofeedback, Bejiita.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Isn’t it based on alpha waves, Bejiita?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Was something like that CB

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have to be something like an ordinary EEG scanner i think

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats like a multimeter, you can measure but not physically see

[13:42] herman Bergson: As you see...not an easy subject to deal with...guess we are conscious of that :-))

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed ㋡

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess so

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe

[13:43] herman Bergson: BUt dont worry....we still have time for new lectures...

[13:43] CB Axel: We are conscious of the fact that consciousness is a difficult subject to study.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Besides that...

[13:43] herman Bergson: to put you in the middle of the debate...

[13:44] herman Bergson: just start here...

[13:44] herman Bergson: https://www.ted.com/talks/antonio_damasio_the_quest_to_understand_consciousness#t-1099040

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ah a TED talk

[13:44] herman Bergson: Damasio himself :-)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bookmarked

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i like TEDs

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes they are very interesting

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: me too - just the right length for me ;)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Interesting analysis of the self

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah¨

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes you should take the 18 minutes to listen to him :-)

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will do

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bookmarked it

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...you've got your homework...so...

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: heheh

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed..^_^

[13:46] CB Axel: I'm looking forward to watching that.

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lo really fast

[13:46] herman Bergson: And thank you all again :-))

[13:46] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and cu next time

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Dankjewel Herman:)

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to be here Tuesday but not sure

[13:47] herman Bergson: Wonder where you came from Gemma ? :-))

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: have a great day/night everyone

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten Beertje ㋡

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Ciska"))

[13:47] CB Axel: Good night, everyone. See you Tuesday.

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Have a goodnight :)

670; THE NEW PROJECT - In Search of my Self

Welcome again everyone. It is good to see you all back again. We enjoyed a long summer break. I hope, you all enjoyed your vacation.

   

But here we are again. Ready to start a new project. In a way it is a special one, because this project coincides with the tenth anniversary of The Philosophy Class.

   

Yes, ten years The Philosophy Class and some of you have participated as long as that too. In the first week of November is the actual anniversary date.

    

Our new project: In search of my Self. What does it mean? 

   

When you google on “Self” or even better, on “Self-help” the very first hit of many thousands may look like this:

   

“The 50 Best Self-Help Books of All-Time | Best Counseling Schools www.bestcounselingschools.org/best-self-help-books/

   

Today's fast-paced and high-stress culture has spawned thousands of self-help books, each promising to be the key to living a happier and more successful life.”

   

This project will not aim at getting you a happier and more successful life, although focusing on philosophical thinking could help you achieving that nevertheless.

   

We simply will focus on the question: What exactly is this Self, with which we seem to be so familiar?

   

This question can be interpreted in several ways. To begin with: to ask WHAT IS… suggests that this Self could be a thing.

   

Is my self maybe my mind, or am I my brain? These are, what we philosophically call ontological questions. In what way does this SELF exist?

    

An other approach is, that we could wonder about how we do know this Self. How do we know, that we stay a self, for instance, through time.

   

Is there something through time that has stayed the same since our birth, which we could call our Self?

   

What when we look inside ourselves? Do we see a Self then? Can you see the Self in an fMRI scan? It never has happened. 

  

So isn’t the Self  just something we imagine or are we looking at the wrong place? Does introspection reveal our Self to us?

    

What in any case is clear, is that this Self can only exist as a part of our consciousness. We also know that there can not be consciousness without a brain,

   

To speak with John Searle, we could say, that "consciousness" refers to those states of sentience and awareness that typically begin 

  

when we awake from a dreamless sleep and continue until we go to sleep again, or fall into a coma or die or otherwise become "unconscious." 

   

Dreams are a form of consciousness, though of course quite different from full waking states. Consciousness so defined switches off and on.

    

We can add to this, that most conscious states, feeling a pain, for example, do not necessarily involve self-consciousness. 

  

Consciousness as such does not necessarily imply self-consciousness or self-awareness.

    

This leads to the conclusion, that animals have consciousness too, but that homo sapiens has consciousness with this extra.

   

We, contrary to animals, call our consciousness our mind and we can look into our mind and say: “this is MY mind, this is me myself…and in my mind is this and that going on”

   

To be continued….thank you for your attention…^_^

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

John Searle: The Mystery of Consciousness (1997)
Antonio Damasio: Self comes to Mind (2010)
L.de Bruin/F. Jongepier/ S.de Maargt: IK, Filosofie van het Zelf (2017)

   

The Discussion

[13:18] Ciska Riverstone: thanx hermann

[13:18] herman Bergson: Maybe a tough start after such a nice summerbreak :-))

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds like a good theme at least

[13:19] herman Bergson: the basic idea is that the brain in some way generates consciousness, which we share with many other sentient beings (animals)

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you give a a lot to think about

[13:20] herman Bergson: but in us this consciousness then generates a Self...but only in our mind....

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the Self is the the same as Ego?

[13:20] herman Bergson: these are pretty mysterious things...and a challenge to understand what is happening

[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...

[13:21] herman Bergson: But NOT in the Freudian sense...

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some on this planet have a lot of it :)

[13:21] herman Bergson: The Self is the Me....

[13:22] herman Bergson: No no Beertje..this is a philosophy class not a psychology class :-)))

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the Self is a strange thing

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in fact we are all alone

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes....and we'll learn that it might not even exist....that we have no Self :-)

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): self is basically recursion

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): reflecting back to you

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is both easy and hard to define sort of

[13:25] herman Bergson: I think about my self....:-)

[13:25] herman Bergson: who is this "I" and who this "Mysself " ?

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hard to understand what you mean Bejiita

[13:26] CB Axel: Hi, Gemma. gtsy

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at least I showed up

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Hi everybody!!! :D :D :D

[13:26] herman Bergson: Gemma ! :-))

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Gemma

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): made the end anyway

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Gemma nice to see you :)

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good to see you all

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at first it seems obvious what self is but as i get it it is possible to get it not so easy

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure i want to find myself tho

[13:26] herman Bergson: Nice to see you....seeing you already for ten years now....so I missed you :-)

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all good Gemma?

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok tyy

[13:27] herman Bergson: How is your mobility Gemma ? :-))

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well to be honest not as good as it should be

[13:28] herman Bergson: awww....sorry to hear

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the nerve damage in my leg is hampering it

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok

[13:28] CB Axel: :(

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aw

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the terrible pain i had before the surgery is gone

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i have some replacement pain

[13:28] herman Bergson: ahh that at least is something!

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope everyone here is well

[13:29] herman Bergson: To speak for my Self...I am indeed Gemma ^_^

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I willl catch up for Thursday

[13:30] herman Bergson: I made a start with explaining consciousness and the Self...

[13:31] herman Bergson: mysterious things however...but we have both nevertheless

[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe next question is..how does the brain generate consciousness

[13:32] herman Bergson: and then...

[13:32] herman Bergson: how generates consciousness self-consciousness

[13:32] herman Bergson: I'd get a Nobelprize if I gave you the straight answer to these questions now :-)

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe we wil know that in a couple of weeks:)

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or months

[13:33] CB Axel: You mentioned dreamless sleep earlier which got me thinking about how during dreams we are still conscious of a self.

[13:33] herman Bergson grins

[13:33] herman Bergson: As I said Beertje...I love your positive thinking ^_^

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you :)

[13:34] herman Bergson: In a way we are CB, yes

[13:34] CB Axel: Dreams fascinate me.

[13:34] herman Bergson: In your dream most of the time there is a ME....

[13:35] herman Bergson: What is fascinating about dreams CB?

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I can sometimes control my dreams a bit somewhat, what i want to dream about

[13:35] CB Axel: It's weird. In a mostly unconscious state we're still conscious of ourselves.

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh me too, money, chocolate, :))

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it doesn’t work every time but sometime it have seemed to work if i really want it to be about something special

[13:35] CB Axel: I don't think I can control my dreams. I'm not sure I want to.

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes ..in a way we seem to be CB

[13:36] CB Axel: I like being surprised by what my sub-conscious mind comes up with.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you always get a bit of randomness but thats as it should be

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): my favorite ones are when i seem to wake then go back to the same dream!

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what i don’t get is how weird they can be often,

[13:36] CB Axel: My dreams can be influenced by sounds around me as I sleep.

[13:36] herman Bergson: It recently happened to me that I woke up during a dream.....and then I wanted to continue that dream....and this happened

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes that i can do sometimes as well and finish where i left off

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that has happened

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if i immediateley decide when i wake up that i not done with the dream yet and waht to continue i iften can do that

[13:37] CB Axel: I can't do that. Go back to the same dream. My mind can't focus any better asleep than awake, I suppose. °͜°

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then my mom calls and think im a sleepyhead

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): calls

[13:38] CB Axel: But, even when dreaming, there is a self.

[13:39] CB Axel: The self seems to be very persistent.

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...guess it will be interesting to dig into consciousness some more and try to find our Self there

[13:40] CB Axel: No matter where I go or where my mind goes I'm still there.

[13:40] CB Axel: Whether I like me or not

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes CB...but in a dream it is very strange.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: for after the dream your Self says...it was a dreamed self

[13:41] CB Axel: But that dreamed self still seems to be me. Just in odd circumstances.

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): your circumstances, not of somebody else

[13:41] herman Bergson: But it is not based on a 100% consciousness....

[13:42] herman Bergson: which you know when you awake

[13:42] CB Axel: Yes. Not even close to 100% since I can't control my dreams.

[13:42] herman Bergson: ah..indeed.....in a way you are a spectator in your dreams...

[13:43] CB Axel nods

[13:43] herman Bergson: infact analoge to the Self in full consciousness...

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:43] herman Bergson: you can observe what you think....

[13:44] herman Bergson: but again...the big question is...WHO/WHAT is that YOU here?

[13:44] CB Axel: Awake we are ourselves looking out at the world and asleep is us looking in at ourselves maybe?

[13:44] herman Bergson: Not necessarily I'd say....

[13:45] CB Axel: What I am now is a physical being who would like a taco.

[13:45] herman Bergson: awake I also can look into myself ....we call it introspection...

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:45] CB Axel: True. I don't like looking in there. It's too dark. °͜°

[13:45] herman Bergson: HAs anyone a taco for CB ????

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): light a candle CB:)

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cb we have got to get you out!

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): don’t like you being dead inside at all

[13:46] CB Axel: Or I need to find comfort and peace in the darkness.

[13:46] CB Axel: Hello, Darkness, my old friend...

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah another thought

[13:46] herman Bergson: Cant believe your Self is dead CB :-)

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah well that is good

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love that song

[13:47] CB Axel: My av can rip its heart out, if you like.

[13:47] herman Bergson: me too Gemma :-)

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is peaceful not dead

[13:47] CB Axel: I believe death is peaceful.

[13:47] CB Axel: Although the lead up to it can be terrifying.

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well yes but not while you are alive

[13:47] CB Axel: Yes

[13:48] CB Axel: Anyway, back to the meaning of self.

[13:48] herman Bergson: Let's stick to consciousness and the living for the next lectures :-)

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good idea

[13:48] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: SO...thank you all again for your attention :-)

[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:49] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well im off to sleep, up early for a golf trip with work

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): very interesting lecture Herman

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wil try to be on time Thursday

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: thank you hermann

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: thanx everyone

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nite

[13:49] CB Axel: See you all Thursday.

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i want that to go well

[13:49] herman Bergson: See you next thursday :-)

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu soon again all

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Dankjewel Herman