725: Not only Science changes the World....

When we ask the question, what in the 20th century shaped our world as it is now, an obvious answer might be the growth of knowledge, science.

  

But there is more, of course. Also philosophy played its part. I only need to mention Ayn Rand and present day neo-liberalism, or Karl Marx and socialism.

    

But throughout the 19th century, religions, and especially Christianity, were also confronted with all kinds of scientific discoveries that were contrary to the biblical view of the universe.

   

Here we'll focus on the Catholic Church, because contrary to protestants, who are much diverse, it is a centralized, hierarchical  and politically involved organisation.

      

Early 1900s many of the younger clergy urged the Vatican to respond to all new developments and discoveries in science. 

   

The traditionalists, in turn, felt that the church had to talk away the discoveries to restore the ancient truths. 

   

The debate between the two groups, modernists and traditionalists, threatened to lead to profound discord.

   

If you think, that the debate, that started under pope Pius X based on his encyclical "Pascendi dominici gregis" ('Feed the Lord's Flock') (1907), has ended, you are mistaken.

   

The debate lasts still till this very day and the modernists have lost almost every battle. 

  

There was a glimpse of hope for them under pope John XXIII, who organized the Second Vatican Council in 1962.

   

He died however in 1963, which was the moment for the traditionalists to resume their attack on the modernists.

   

If I only speak for the situation in the Netherlands, the victory of the traditionalists has resulted in a complete decay of the Catholic church here.

   

Churches are closing by the dozen. Only elder people of 65  and older fill the benches. There is an enormous shortage of priests and this process of decay still continues.

   

If you want to follow the battle, this is exemplary: 

   

"Pascendi dominici gregis" enjoined a compulsory anti-modernist oath, introduced on 1 September 1910, which obliged all Catholic bishops, priests and teachers

     

to come to clear terms with what they believed; this oath remained in force until Pope Paul VI abolished it in 1967.

   

When the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, under the authority of Pope John Paul II,

  

mandated the use of a new Oath of Fidelity in 1989, some theologians labeled it as a new kind of anti-modernist oath.

  

Now, what was this modernism like? What was against the traditional dogma of the church?

  

To begin with a rationalistic approach to the Bible. The rationalism that was characteristic of the Enlightenment took a protomaterialistic view of miracles and of the historicity of biblical narratives. 

  

Secondly secularism and other Enlightenment ideals. The ideal of secularism can be briefly stated as follows: 

the best course of action in politics and other civic fields is that which flows from a common understanding of the Good by various groups and religions. 

  

By implication, Church and State should be separated and the laws of the latter should cover only the common ground of thought systems held by various (non-) religious groups

  

Thirdly modern philosophical systems. Philosophers such as Kant and Bergson inspired the mainstream of modernist thought.

   

Bergon's book "L'évolution créatrice" (1907) was even placed on the Index of forbidden books for catholics.

  

What pope Pius X started in 1907 has resulted in a marginalization of a formerly influential and powerful social organization.

   

As a final observation, we see the same debate in Islam, which also has deep roots in the 1900s.

   

Thank you for your attention... ^_^

   

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: To put it bluntly....the church has removed itself from society by denying science

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are afraid to loose power

[13:18] CB Axel: It seems like the church wants to stop people from thinking, which is impossible.

[13:19] herman Bergson: Like Trump is removing the US from world politics

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): almighty Trump:)

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:19] herman Bergson: I really don't understand the power of these traditionalists....and what they are aiming at

[13:20] CB Axel: Trump is trying to remove the US from democracy and other democracies.

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its all about power indeed

[13:20] herman Bergson: Looks like it, yes

[13:20] CB Axel: They are aiming at controlling their power and wealth.

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): catholics are called 'sheep' and they have to follow the leader

[13:20] CB Axel: Hi, Gemma.

[13:20] herman Bergson: Hi Gemma

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): made it

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): missed the class tho i guess

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hi Gemma:)

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): brainwash people to believe in something that dont actually exist so they can keep power over them

[13:21] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): hello Gemma

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what religion is in general today

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hi there

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Gemma

[13:21] CB Axel: True, Beertje, but it used to be that the people were sheep who needed a kind shepherd to protect them.

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): since there is so much science today that can be the only reason any religion still exists

[[13:22] herman Bergson: I have no explanation for this attitude of the Catholic church.....

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): control and oppression to gain power over others

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): by denying actual facts

[13:22] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita, but then they would lose their power and wealth.

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes and they don't want that

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a woman unfriendly institute

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as all religions are

[13:23] herman Bergson: Well...Beertje to give you an example.....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes, its from religion this view come

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least mostly

[13:23] CB Axel: Are all religions anti-women?

[13:23] herman Bergson: since the 70s women were allowed to become pastoral worker...

[13:23] herman Bergson: They are all removed from their jobs

[13:23] herman Bergson: Hi Ciska :-)

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ciska

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why? were they too good?

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone whispers: sorry for being so late

[13:24] CB Axel: I don't know enough about, say, Hindus or Sikhs to know if they are anti-women.

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone whispers: hello everyone

[13:24] CB Axel: Hi, Ciska.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi CIska

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hihi i just got here too

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hallo Ciska

[13:24] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): hi Ciska

[13:24] herman Bergson: well...if you hear about the group rapes in India by Hindus....

[13:25] CB Axel: Yeah. :(

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, its hard to believe nowadays they created karma sutra, the love bible

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i guess this is a recent problem

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what an awful one it is :(

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont know to much about India however

[13:26] CB Axel: Is that a religious thing or a societal thing that Hindu leaders would condemn?

[13:26] herman Bergson: The issue of today is that science collides with religious beleifs and that the response of Rome caused the decay of the Catholic church in (Northern) Europe

[13:27] CB Axel: right

[13:27] herman Bergson: I don't know, CB

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is what a religious thing cb?

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the rapes?

[13:27] CB Axel: Yes

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are condemned

[13:28] CB Axel: The Catholic Church has been losing significance since Copernicus. °͜°

[13:28] herman Bergson: too much negative publicity for the country

[13:29] CB Axel: And negative publicity is the only reason the rapes are condemned?

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nono

[13:29] herman Bergson: To some extend indeed, but I guess that Pius X in 1907 showed everyone the way down :-)

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why didi he do that?

[13:29] herman Bergson: I hope not, CB!

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): google it

[13:30] herman Bergson: Good question Beertje....why is a conservative a conservative, while he is surrounded by progressive ideas

[13:30] CB Axel: Fear?

[13:30] CB Axel: Fear of the unknown?

[13:30] herman Bergson: personal interests?

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): remember i sent an article showing that the brains of conservative and  progressive are different

[13:31] herman Bergson: Reputation?

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the brain itself

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they view life differently

[13:31] herman Bergson: That ios a chicken or egg question....

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scientific reality

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he never learned to think for himself I guess

[13:31] herman Bergson: till 24  years old the brain grows....

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Pius x was a very holy man and believed fully in the biblical sense of life

[13:32] herman Bergson: so by adhering to conservative ideas picked up in education...did that shape the brain?

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at that time

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was a teddy bear

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): HAHAA

[13:32] herman Bergson: or had the brain a shape that was only fit for conservative ideas?

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no it is part of the brain that reacts differently

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he was surrounded in men in black dresses, who told him what he has to tell us

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): size of that part

[13:33] herman Bergson: send the URL of that article again if you can Gemma...

[13:33] CB Axel: But was the size of that part of the brain affected by the person's upbringing?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Wonder how they did the research

[13:34] CB Axel: While the brain was being developed as a child.

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): https://www.salon.com/2016/06/06/study_liberals_and_conservatives_have_different_brain_structures_partner/

[13:34] CB Axel: Maybe even before birth.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:34] herman Bergson: that is waht I mean....chicken first or egg first?

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): read that bejiita

[13:35] herman Bergson: Thanks Gemma ! :-)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa checking it now

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is a video audio at the bottom too

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is only one of the studies

[13:36] herman Bergson: We have to bread this out of our population then , Gemma :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): conservatives have basically a fear of change

[13:36] CB Axel: That's very interesting. My parents are both conservatives. Both my brothers tend to vote Republican, but my sister and I are both very liberal. It would be interesting to go back in time and watch our brains develop over time.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats also what conservative means

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): resist changes

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and people do change too

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): my dad was a diehard conservative

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but wow did he change

[13:37] CB Axel: Yes, my older brother has become more liberal over time. My younger brother has become more conservative.

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how it happens

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my grandmother was very liberal, she told me to have the pill nomather what the church said

[13:37] CB Axel: What made him change, Gemma?

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now this pope is not liked by the conservative clergy

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that was in 1965

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is viewed by too liberal

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as too liberal that is

[13:38] herman Bergson: indeed Gemma

[13:38] CB Axel: I think I'd like your grandmother, Beertje. °͜°

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with is why I like him

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)) i like her too

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is a scientist by training

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sees science as the others dont

[13:38] CB Axel: I like this pope better than most, too.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why do you like a pope?

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however that could be not good for the next choice for pope

[13:39] herman Bergson: Mut he represents a minority in his company

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): depending on the number of conservatives that will vote

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause this one is not as gay and woman opressive for once wich the one before was a lot i think

[13:39] CB Axel: The current pope was trained as a scientist. I think he also can see how the Church is declining in significance and would like to change that.

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: I truly think that while there are  a lot of "to be born with structures" in the brain the mess starts to become more difficult when people aren't allowed to learn to work with their emotions but instead push them down at a very young age

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to use religion to support oppressive hateful ideas like this is not something i like

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what changed my father was seeing those apposing unions

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but this pope now have actually said some really good things

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): adn social security

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: conservatives mostly are quirky with their own emotions

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: right - they often are social insecure

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure they are too emotional at all

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: so they need to hold on to rules

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is he friendly for woman?

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto toward other humans

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes he is

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or is everything still the same?

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: (this pope mentioned that the catholic church needs another luther more then once?)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): big difference id say

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: (-?+!)

[13:42] herman Bergson: I dont think he can save the sinking ship

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when the catholic Italians arrived in the usa they were hated

[13:42] herman Bergson: in Europe

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for the Catholicism

[13:42] herman Bergson: Obviously....

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will take a long time for the catholic church to sink herman

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a long time

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has survived over 2000 years

[13:43] herman Bergson: I know, for it still lives on in other continents

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in all parts of the world in all persecutions

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): drill some holes in it, then it will sink faster

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it is growing in Africa too

[13:43] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): in europe islam will take over

[13:43] CB Axel: Many people were against JFK because he was Catholic. It was thought the Pope would run the country through him.

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i  doubt it Yvette

[13:44] herman Bergson: I dont believe so too Yvette :-)

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here i think the evangelical church is way more dangerous to society

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the usa

[13:44] CB Axel: I agree

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look how they are backing trump!!

[13:44] herman Bergson: I saw soem explanation.....

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: why gemma ?  cb? what do they do?

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unbelievable

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: ah ok

[13:44] herman Bergson: 81% of the WHITE evangelicals voted for Trump

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they vote!!!!!!!!!!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): always

[13:45] CB Axel: They are anti-everything. Anti-women. Anti-gays.

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and many are filthy rich

[13:45] herman Bergson: 78% of the Black evangelicals did not vote for Trump

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): anto science

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: no the question to stop is  - is what are they offering what is not offered outside of it

[13:45] CB Axel: The only thing they are for are guns.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like trump

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they are different

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and he like guns too

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a guns religion

[13:45] CB Axel: That's a good point, Ciska.

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh

[13:46] CB Axel: What are people getting from their religions that the government can give them?

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope in after life

[13:46] CB Axel: Unfortunately, I think what they are getting is stability.

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope in ral life

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): real life

[13:46] CB Axel: They get the world they way they want it.

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they flee from reality

[13:46] herman Bergson: you mean 'can not give' CB?

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): belief in that

[13:47] CB Axel: No. What can the government give them that they now get from the church?

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they don't want much government

[13:47] herman Bergson: Food

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: one answer might be some sort of validation and  "control of others" and if not that then "to be right"

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nono

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): government should be local!!!

[13:48] CB Axel: The government can't promise them that the world isn't going to change.

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma thats one I agree

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only armies by the feds

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): otherwise build your own roads

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: true cb - it can't but it does

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): national parks have to go

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): social security should go

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): health ins should be private

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes God will take care of you...

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): easy said...

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no taxes

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is what they want

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed just look what the slogan of USA is

[13:49] herman Bergson: and isnt there the belief, that you are rich in the US because it is Gods will???

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): In God we trust

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that says something

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sort of

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): about how politics and religion are way to mixed into each other

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really bad thing

[13:50] herman Bergson: And that people voted for Trump BECAUSE he is rich...so in the grace of the Lord???

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and our country should not even think of that

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): separation of church and state prime belief

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): of the founders

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): however

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to mix religion and politics is to base the laws and control of a nation on nonsense and hocus pokes

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nonsense

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): instead of facts

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is such a creep... the latest he used his so called charity foundation money to settle laew suite

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): law suits

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why it can go really bad

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the latest

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): should never be mixed

[13:52] herman Bergson: I disagree Bejiita....

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but shouldn't politics always be fact based

[13:52] CB Axel: I agree, Bejiita, but just try and tell a religious person that you don't think laws should be based on their book of fairy tales. Boy, do they get angry! LOL

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Laws should be based on a consensus between all partisipants, whatever they believe in

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that i can imagine

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they will get

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tricky stuff it is

[13:53] herman Bergson: otherwise you get a state that dictates what beliefs are acceptable and which not

[13:54] herman Bergson: That is the axe on the roots of democracy

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well that can be an issue too i guess

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah well

[13:54] herman Bergson: Inndeed Gemma.....

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and  this discussion goes on

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for ever

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:54] herman Bergson: I guess we have saved the world once and again today :-))

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully a bit at least ㋡

[13:55] herman Bergson: so time to dismiss class :-)

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. Good discussion!

[13:55] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): thank you Herman

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation....

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu around next time all

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman thanx everyone

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sl15 bd starts sunday

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

  

    

724: Scientific justification of Racism....

In the previous lecture I introduced to you a man, named Herbert Spencer  (1820 - 1903) and the term social Darwinism.

      

It is a term scholars use to describe the practice of misapplying the biological evolutionary language of Charles Darwin to politics, the economy, and society.

   

Many sociologists and political theorists in the period 1900 - 1910 turned to Social Darwinism to argue 

  

against government programs to aid the poor, as they believed that poverty was the result of natural inferiority, which should be bred out of the human population. 

   

Herbert Spencer gave as an example a young woman from upstate New York named Margaret, whom he described as a “gutter-child.” 

   

Because government aid had kept her alive, Margaret had, as Spencer wrote, “proved to be the prolific mother” of two hundred descendants 

  

who were “idiots, imbeciles, drunkards, lunatics, paupers, and prostitutes.” Spencer concluded by asking, 

   

“Was it kindness or cruelty which, generation after generation, enabled these to multiply and become an increasing curse to the society around them?”

  

This social Darwinism is probably one of the most influential causes for the emergence and justification of racism.

   

In other words, we in the 21st century are standing on the shoulders of an extremely racist 20th century and we feel this every day.

   

I recognize this in the still growing right wing political parties. They are not overtly racist, but have shifted this attitude towards xenophobia and islam-phobia.

  

Their implicit attitude is one of a belief in white supremacy and this attitude has deep roots in European history.

   

We made some progress in a social sense by making the support of racism a crime and unconstitutional,

   

however in the first decade of the 20th century it was pretty common to have even "scientific" justification for racism.

   

By the way, in those days anti-semitism was extremely virulent too, but that had other historical roots, but it was nicely in tune with the accepted racist ideas.

   

An important source of this scientific racism is for instance Georges Vacher de Lapouge (1854 - 1936), who coined the term "antroposociology".

   

For a short time, there was a kind of fascination with the bizarre and all-explaining doctrines of anthroposociology. 

   

He studied old skulls and came to three conclusions: (1) Races were species in evolutionary development,

   

(2) racial differences were "innate and indelible" and (3) integration between races was against biological laws.

     

Europe counted three races and of course the Homo europaeus, tall, white skin and long skull, was the superior one.

  

He even suggested to offer alcohol for free on the assumption that the inferior races, at least the weakest types would drink themselves to death. A variation on natural selection, I guess.

   

In the US, too, they knew how to discuss the racial issues in a scientific way. Joseph le Conte (1823 - 1901), a physician, geologist, 

   

professor at the University of California, Berkeley and early California conservationist., published already in 1892 "The Race Problem in the South"

   

His theory was, that when two races come in contact with each other, then automatically  one race would dominate the other race.

   

Was the weaker race in an earlier stage of evolutionary development, like the negro, then slavery was good, because thus the 'primitive' mentality could be educated,

   

but when the weaker race had reached a higher state of evolutionary development, like the "redskin", then extermination was inevitable.

   

In this context we may come to a somewhat optimistic conclusion, that at least such theories are banned from science today.

   

Maybe this is our evolutionary progress......

    

Thank you for your attention again :-)

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WATCH THIS VIDEO !!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyaEQEmt5ls

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The Discussion

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing i know is that this is a real sad part of history followin g ut still today.

[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....pretty bizarre theories they had in those years

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are after all the same all of us, there are no so called "races" even we look diffferent,

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it sounds like they created these ideas just as an excuse to hate and murder other

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): s

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and this sadly have followed up to today

[13:18] herman Bergson: The point is, that you can check your roots these days by DNA testing....

[13:19] herman Bergson: The site is called  My heredity, I believe....

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they did not had those things and knowledge back then

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still

[13:19] herman Bergson: there it shows that we are a mix of all kinds of "races"

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): weren't there any people that told him to shut his mouth?

[13:20] herman Bergson: up to Neanderthaler DNA parts :-)

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): since they  had no better knowledge i guess not

[13:21] herman Bergson: In that period 1900 -1910 they just had rediscovered Mendel's laws and genes and how it worked....

[13:21] herman Bergson: Today we have sophisticated techniques to show that races do not exist

[13:22] herman Bergson: Everybody has DNA traces from dozens of places

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:22] herman Bergson: So the pure Ariar does not exist

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I'm part Belgian:))

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I love fries:)

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yummy

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): today there is nothing changed

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes and a lot more, Beertje.....could even have Swedish genes ...that is what they figure out for you with that heredetary DNA test

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Bejiita could be my brother:)

[13:24] herman Bergson: In other word....racism is a cultural thing....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:25] herman Bergson: no Beertje but yet a far cousin

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that should never have been

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we re all the same

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, but some cultures don't match with each other

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] herman Bergson: And that is when racism is called in, Beertje

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ye I know

[13:26] herman Bergson: Interesting to note is...

[13:27] herman Bergson: that the moment science developed in the early decennia of the 20th century, racism  became stronger too....

[13:27] herman Bergson: as became industrialization and technology....

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why was that?

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyaEQEmt5ls )

[13:28] herman Bergson: One reason may be, Beertje, that the white people believed in their superiority, based on their scientific and technological advance

[13:29] herman Bergson: It justified colonization for instance....

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could be, but there is even a culture difference between Amsterdam and Maastricht......is that racism too?

[13:29] herman Bergson: We bring you healthcare and education (and in between steal all your natural resources)

[13:30] herman Bergson: no, I'd say.....this is discrimination on cultural differences not on physical differences

[13:31] herman Bergson: Racism is a real biological thing

[13:32] herman Bergson: But it happens to be that islamic people are arabs mainly.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: Funny thing is that we are rather surprised when a white Dutchman tells us thta he is islamic....:-)

[13:33] herman Bergson: That collides with our biases with respect to islam

[13:34] herman Bergson: Teh belief in the existence of races is a clear legacy from the 20th century....

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:34] herman Bergson: and we still have to deal with it

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and one that we should have been rid from since long

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause we should know better now

[13:35] herman Bergson: at least in a legal sense we are Bejiita

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but then its this power greed over others

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that can be one issue

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): using racism and similar to oppress others

[13:36] herman Bergson: You mean the White Supremacy drive, Bejiita?

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also we can say same thing about male over woman dominance

[13:37] herman Bergson: I think that that still is a serious issue these days....which does not have a simple answer

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the men don't want to loose their power so they do all they can to keep it

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): these issues are i think one reason why these awful beliefs are till with us today, they use it juo justify their power over others

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that they are better

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (note to self, clean out all chocolate from computer)

[13:39] herman Bergson smiles

[13:39] herman Bergson: Ok Bejiita.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: this means that I have to end our discussion so you can get to work on cleaning :-)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well interesting as always

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and so true

[13:40] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation:-)

[13:40] Yvette Kip (yvettekip): thank you Herman:)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel Herman

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

   

723: Social Darwinism becomes popular....

Today we live in a Western world, where individualism counts, where there is an emphasis on the division between winners and losers.

    

A lot of our life is related to consumerism and money. The economy is guided by neo-liberalism and we put a lot of faith in science.

  

Some even believe, that Western culture is the best there is and that white people are also the best species on earth.

    

These maybe not really nuanced statements, but the roots of this line of thinking we find around 1900 with people like Mach, Nietzsche, Darwin.

    

Around that time continental philosophy focused mainly on the individual with respect to "the struggle of life", like Nietzsche has shown,

   

in the Anglo-American world Darwin's evolution theory was the background of many debates on politics, war and class relations.

   

Soon Darwin's theory was not only applied to individual organisms, but also used as an explanatory model for societies.

   

William Graham Sumner (1840 – 1910) was a classical liberal American social scientist. He taught social sciences at Yale, where he held the nation's first professorship in sociology.

   

In 1881, Sumner wrote an essay titled "Sociology.” In the essay, Sumner focused on the connection between sociology and biology. 

   

He explained that there are two sides to the struggle for survival of a human. The first side is a "struggle for existence," which is a relationship between man and nature. 

   

The second side would be the "competition for life," which can be identified as a relationship between man and man.

   

The first is a biological relationship with nature and the second is a social link. 

  

Man would struggle against nature to obtain essential needs such as food or water and in turn this would create the conflict between man and man in order to obtain needs from a limited supply.

   

This might explain why Sumner was a staunch advocate of laissez-faire economics, as well as a proponent of free trade and a foe of socialism.

THE name, however, related to social Darwinism  would be Herbert Spencer, an English sociologist (1820 - 1903), also well known in the US of those days.

  

He took the theory of evolution one step beyond biology and applied it to say that societies were organisms that progress through changes similar to that of a living species.

  

It was Spencer's philosophy that societies, like organisms, would begin simple and then progress to a more complex form. 

   

Spencer also found similarities between animal organisms and societies in that both had three main systems.

  

The first system is the regulative system. In animals, that would be the central nervous system. In societies, it would be a government that regulates everything. 

  

The second system is the sustaining system. For animals, that's the giving and receiving of nourishment. For societies, that would be industry - jobs, money, economy and those sorts of things. 

   

The third system would be the distribution system. In animals, that would be the veins and arteries. 

   

In societies, it would be roads, transportation, anything in which information and goods and services are exchanged.

It was Herbert Spencer, not Darwin, who coined the phrase 'survival of the fittest' due to the fact 

  

that he believed human behavior was designed in a way that strives for self-preservation. Darwin later used the term 'survival of the fittest' in his edition of Origins of the Species.

  

The theory of social Darwinism created the thinking of the 'survival of the fittest' as that the strongest and the fittest should survive and flourish in society, and the weak should be allowed to die out. 

   

This allowed Spencer to believe that the rich and powerful became so because they were better-suited to the social and economic climate of the time. 

  

He believed it was natural or normal that the strong survived at the cost of the weak. I guess, that Trump loves to think about himself in this way.

   

Thank you again for your attention... ^_^

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html
"A Terrible Beauty", Peter Watson (2000)

The Discussion

[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:14] herman Bergson: The floor is yours :-)

[13:14] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i guess that is so

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i agree that Trump must believe this 100 %

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wonders if rand read him or he read rand

[13:15] herman Bergson: It may have escaped your attention, but the ideas of Spencer are pretty silly, in my opinion :-))

[13:15] SarahWhitney: Where does the moral and spiritual nature of man fit into this scheme?

[13:16] CB Axel: So, those of us who have ethics, morals, knowledge, creditability, etc. are doomed?

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nowhere. They just thought that money and power make you the best to survive ignoring all these facts

[13:16] herman Bergson: ANd those who are rich will survive CB :-)

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think that many of the preachers of the time in the USA also have this philosophy

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): must have been like that

[13:16] CB Axel: That is, those have all those things but no money don't deserve to live.

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): be good and you will get good

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true

[13:17] CB Axel: I wish Trump and his ilk good luck with the world they're creating.

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you said it

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): those who have compassion are weak

[13:17] SarahWhitney: Well, they were right in that today's manna is money.

[13:17] herman Bergson: Keep in mind...these were the basic believes at the start of the 20th century....

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and stupid too

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ys

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and they are coming around again

[13:17] CB Axel: Those beliefs are still here.

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): immigration here was as criticized as today

[13:18] herman Bergson: YEs..now we know that  those ideas don't fit....but yet...they are around

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed its the same still

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some people have learned nothing

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seems

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and not only here ut other countries too the very far right

[13:18] CB Axel: Those ideas do fit. At least in the US they do. They're the ones in power.

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what can we do to change that?

[13:19] herman Bergson: Yes CB...that is the scary story

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:19] CB Axel: Bring back the guillotine?

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg'

[13:19] SarahWhitney: Morals seem to be a social handicap today.

[13:19] herman Bergson: No no...for that  would separate the brains completely from the body.....we need hope CB :-)

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): some have anatural separation

[13:20] herman Bergson: What I learnt today in particular was, that our neo-liberalism dates back from 1735 or so...Adam Smith....

[13:21] herman Bergson: In a way I made a mistake in mentioning John Stuart Mill in my announcement....

[13:21] SarahWhitney: why?

[13:21] herman Bergson: He was against infinite economic growth.....:-)

[13:21] herman Bergson: Adams wasn't.....

[13:22] SarahWhitney: What was his reasoning for being against it?

[13:22] herman Bergson: According to Mill companies should be cooperations.....

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because we cant just produce and buy more and more all the time, its not holding

[13:22] SarahWhitney: You mean have social responsibilities?

[13:22] herman Bergson: The managers should not OWN all production means...all should own it...management and workers

[13:23] SarahWhitney: ah, yes

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): works in some companies

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and share the profit

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:23] herman Bergson: yes

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): most of the large companies however give profits to the share holders

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and pay less wages

[13:24] herman Bergson: I myself wonder now and then how it can be possible that only a 10% of the earth population OWNS 90% of everything

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the share holders get everything almost

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: thats no longer completely true gemma

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree herman

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its crazy

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is amazing isn't it

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and sad

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: its a bookkeeping trick

[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: thats how it happened

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's greed

[13:25] SarahWhitney: The accumulation of great wealth seems to be a glaring problem

[13:25] herman Bergson: The situation is like this.....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greed is a huge problem

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even they have billions of dollars they still scream MORE MORE MOOOOORE!

[13:26] herman Bergson: on the one hand you have people who create value by their productive activities....

[13:26] CB Axel: I just don't understand that the rich think they need to be richer.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well and there are those who also own large amounts of money and have dedicated most of it to help those who don't

[13:26] CB Axel: What do they need all that money for?

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: power cb

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a good thing at least that many actually do share

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some of our billionaires sign a promise for most of their money to go to their charities

[13:26] herman Bergson: and on the other hand there is a group who appropriates this value and starts to deal and manipulate with it....

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Bill Gates

[13:26] CB Axel: I mean, if you're spending money on stupid things like gold toilets, you don't need more money.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Bill Gates for one

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is not greedy , he shares

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Buffet too

[13:27] CB Axel: And gold toilets don't give you power.

[13:27] herman Bergson: the real economy next to the financial markets...

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha no

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it poops chiqye CB

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just boasting

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just about that

[13:28] herman Bergson: Money has become a separate industry.....as a parasite on the real economy

[13:28] CB Axel: Power actually belongs to people who can produce things we need to live.

[13:28] SarahWhitney: Good way of putting it Herman!!!

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:28] herman Bergson: thank you Sarah:-)

[13:28] CB Axel: Come the apocalypse, a person with a gold toilet is going to die while those who can grow food will live.

[13:28] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also it holds back development because even the technology exist there is always it cost to much to do

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the star trek series they ditched the money system and just started to create what they needed and thus could build these starships ect

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because money was not an issue

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you want it you create it

[13:29] SarahWhitney: When billionaires have charities they still retain the power

[13:30] SarahWhitney: I hate Bill Gates AND Warren Buffett

[13:30] herman Bergson: That is what they want Sarah.....it is about their power, not their charity.....they love the applause

[13:31] herman Bergson: I think such people are either self-centered or hypocrites

[13:31] CB Axel: Until people start to care about these things, nothing will get better.

[13:31] CB Axel: Apathy is the enemy.

[13:31] SarahWhitney: Yes, they have no true social conscience

[13:31] CB Axel: I just saw today how few people voted in the elections held on Tuesday. It's pathetic.

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): these are certainly long lasting ideas however

[13:32] herman Bergson: What we are discussing here is the roots of our 21st century.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: Keep that in mind.....

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they certainly are

[13:32] herman Bergson: and today again a good example how history shaped our time of today

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): It should swing the other way eventually

[13:32] herman Bergson: That is the amazing observation, Gemma.....

[13:33] SarahWhitney: How do you figure, Gemma?

[13:33] herman Bergson: The long lasting effects of ideas of individual beings....

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): long historical view shows it usually does for a while

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the pendulum

[13:33] herman Bergson: Like those of John Adams, Nietzsche and others

[13:34] herman Bergson: Darwin especially....

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i still think we need a real good invasion from space

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe

[13:34] herman Bergson: He put man inside the realm of animals

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that would do it

[13:34] herman Bergson: My dream too, Gemma.....

[13:34] SarahWhitney: Yes, I'd never thought of it that way before

[13:34] herman Bergson: aliens to show us our relativity

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: But it doesn't look to promising out there Gemma....

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: well usually when things are broken (after war) people are reminded of solidarity and such

[13:35] herman Bergson: maybe WE are the aliens here in the universe:-))

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true Ciska

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:35] CB Axel: The best part of an alien invasion would be showing the rich how worthless their money is. Aliens won't care about our currency.

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: the climate after the war in Germany way super social

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: political too

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the definition of the term alien = not us

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but we would be aliens in turn to some other extraterrestrial species

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if there are any

[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: but maybe - just maybe  in a very odd way - the "war of gender" will have a similar effect...

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause we are not them

[13:37] herman Bergson: When there are no aliens in the universe, Bejiita, WE are the aliens here

[13:37] herman Bergson: I hope you are not pleading for a (world) war Ciska...:-)

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: noo

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: not at all

[13:38] herman Bergson: ahh we have a visitor from planet Austria :-)

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: more a war of concepts

[13:38] CB Axel: lol

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: out In the open

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: without weapons

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: but a lot of words

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: leading to a new language

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: maybe ,)

[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: they are already picking me up :-) ill send you an whatsapp

[13:38] herman Bergson: I am at your side Ciska :_)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bergie

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): di you make that ?

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: bergie is already fully equipped

[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: no lol+

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm now when i think of it i think i have some of these myself, from very long back

[13:39] herman Bergson: lol

[13:39] herman Bergson whispers: cute Bergie  :-)

[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins .. sorry professor

[13:39] herman Bergson: I guess it is time to send you all into outer space now...:-)

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ty

[13:40] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again for your participation....

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or under water cause thats where im going¨

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): was the island good last week?

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)¨

[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: thanx all

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu all next time

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was great as usual

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:40] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): going to run a fishing contest soo

[13:40] herman Bergson: I'll be there Bejiita ^_^

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): soon

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:41] CB Axel: As usual, you've given me a lot to think about.

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:41] CB Axel: See you all Tuesday. Bye.

[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman and Class!!

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:41] SarahWhitney: Thank you.  Very interesting.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Bye